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flippy
06-11-2012, 12:34 PM
In the 5 games we lost last year, we ran the ball 20 times on average.

In the 12 games we won, we rushed the ball 28 times on average.

Seems like being able to run the ball effectively supports winning. I get the circumstances are different in the games you win versus lose in general. But being able to run the ball in general has value.

Crash
06-11-2012, 12:36 PM
Yeah, those 8 extra rushing attempts would have stopped Joe Flacco from kicking their ass all year.

grotonsteel
06-11-2012, 12:46 PM
In the 5 games we lost last year, we ran the ball 20 times on average.

In the 12 games we won, we rushed the ball 28 times on average.

Seems like being able to run the ball effectively supports winning. I get the circumstances are different in the games you win versus lose in general. But being able to run the ball in general has value.

Everyone wants to run the ball effectively but that does not mean rushing the ball more.

So people want to give Redman and company more touches and then bitch about 21st scoring offense??? Wow...:roll:

Giving ball to Redman is not going to turn this Steelers team into offensive jaugernaut. Play to its strength and keep running the ball for the sake of it.

Biggest Problem with Offense and BA was more often than not offense went into a shell as soon as they took lead. Not only it screws the rhythm on the offense it even cools of your QB arm.

Keep throwing the ball if it is working. No need to play Marty-Ball. If defense runs out of gas and makes their stats look bad well tough luck.

feltdizz
06-11-2012, 01:04 PM
Everyone wants to run the ball effectively but that does not mean rushing the ball more.

So people want to give Redman and company more touches and then bitch about 21st scoring offense??? Wow...:roll:

Giving ball to Redman is not going to turn this Steelers team into offensive jaugernaut. Play to its strength and keep running the ball for the sake of it.

Biggest Problem with Offense and BA was more often than not offense went into a shell as soon as they took lead. Not only it screws the rhythm on the offense it even cools of your QB arm.

Keep throwing the ball if it is working. No need to play Marty-Ball. If defense runs out of gas and makes their stats look bad well tough luck.

Running the ball got us back in the Denver game last year... If we ran on that last 3rd down in Denver territory instead of passing and getting the ball knocked out of Ben's hands who knows, we may have been in FG territory.

Giving the ball to Redman more often will definitely turn us into an offensive juggernaut. We will have more 3rd and 3's vs 3rd and 9's which will force the D to play run or pass. Ben is deadly with PA and with a chain mover like Redman you will see Ben flourish in the passing game.

grotonsteel
06-11-2012, 01:13 PM
Running the ball got us back in the Denver game last year... If we ran on that last 3rd down in Denver territory instead of passing and getting the ball knocked out of Ben's hands who knows, we may have been in FG territory.

Giving the ball to Redman more often will definitely turn us into an offensive juggernaut. We will have more 3rd and 3's vs 3rd and 9's which will force the D to play run or pass. Ben is deadly with PA and with a chain mover like Redman you will see Ben flourish in the passing game.

Steelers were down by 2 scores by 3rdQ. Its easier to run the ball when Defense is geared to stop the pass.

Steelers run 60% of the time on 1st down so if Steelers are 3rd and long who is to blame for it?? Mendy or Ben??

feltdizz
06-11-2012, 01:24 PM
Steelers were down by 2 scores by 3rdQ. Its easier to run the ball when Defense is geared to stop the pass.

Steelers run 60% of the time on 1st down so if Steelers are 3rd and long who is to blame for it?? Mendy or Ben??

1) this is why it's a good idea to be able to do both well....

2) BA is to blame... I'll also throw Mend in there as well because he refused to take what was there which resulted in too many lost yards or no gains.

steeler_fan_in_t.o.
06-11-2012, 01:24 PM
When you are up in a game then you run the ball more in the second half. So I will say that it is not running more that leads to winning games - it is winning games that leads you to run more.

What we need to do is put the D in a situation in which they can not over-commit to one or the other. We need to be able to do both effectively and take advantage of the D that sells out.

grotonsteel
06-11-2012, 01:54 PM
What we need to do is put the D in a situation in which they can not over-commit to one or the other. We need to be able to do both effectively and take advantage of the D that sells out.

I am all for it. Infact i want Steelers offense to do both effectively.

Problem is when you start playing Marty-ball after taking lead. Predicitable Offensive play calling along with turnstile O-line was a major issue.

grotonsteel
06-11-2012, 01:57 PM
2) BA is to blame... I'll also throw Mend in there as well because he refused to take what was there which resulted in too many lost yards or no gains.

Fair enough. Mendy runnign style was not suited for the O-line Steelers had.

Hoipefully with new OC they would design plays to give ball to Mendy/redman/batch/Rainey in open field.

Crash
06-11-2012, 01:57 PM
I am all for it. Infact i want Steelers offense to do both effectively.

Problem is when you start playing Marty-ball after taking lead. Predicitable Offensive play calling along with turnstile O-line was a major issue.

And the MINUTE they go away from Marty ball, and it fails? The offense gets blamed for the defense not making plays.

Protecting the defense's reputation is priority #1 in Pittsburgh. Always has been and always will be.

grotonsteel
06-11-2012, 02:04 PM
Protecting the defense's reputation is priority #1 in Pittsburgh. Always has been and always will be.


:Agree

That is the real tragedy.

hawaiiansteel
06-11-2012, 02:06 PM
Protecting the defense's reputation is priority #1 in Pittsburgh. Always has been and always will be.


no it's not.

winning football games is priority #1 in Pittsburgh, always has been and always will be.

feltdizz
06-11-2012, 02:08 PM
And the MINUTE they go away from Marty ball, and it fails? The offense gets blamed for the defense not making plays.

Protecting the defense's reputation is priority #1 in Pittsburgh. Always has been and always will be.

I'll give you 2009 but that's it. When the D fails they should get the "credit" they deserve... but this offense stinks when you look at the weapons we have.

Crash
06-11-2012, 02:11 PM
We don't use the weapons we have. We have to run the ball.

If anything our obsession with the past hurts this football team more than defenses do.

squidkid
06-11-2012, 03:29 PM
We don't use the weapons we have. We have to run the ball.

If anything our obsession with the past hurts this football team more than defenses do.

true. ben needs to learn how to dump off passes and utilize his tigh tends more instead of taking sacks looking for the deep ball.

Crash
06-11-2012, 03:41 PM
true. ben needs to learn how to dump off passes and utilize his tigh tends more instead of taking sacks looking for the deep ball.

Dump off passes to who? RBs? How can do that when the backs are blocking?

If you want Ben to take a 5 yard dump on 3rd and 10 and punt? Trade him for Carson Palmer.

You won't win anything, but he'll say healthy all year.

Tight ends? You need to Miller's numbers with Arians.

It was LOCAL YINZER Cowher who didn't use him.

ikestops85
06-11-2012, 04:12 PM
no it's not.

winning football games is priority #1 in Pittsburgh, always has been and always will be.

Exactly, thinking anything else is plain silly.

Slapstick
06-11-2012, 04:33 PM
We don't use the weapons we have. We have to run the ball.


The Steelers passed 56% of the time last year...it didn't work...

Crash
06-11-2012, 04:37 PM
The Steelers passed 56% of the time last year...it didn't work...

Of course it didn't, the defense got torched by Joe Flacco and Tim Tebow.

If you want 50% TOTAL run pass? You can't pay Ben $15 mil a year. It's flat killing your own team.

You pay Lefty $3 mil a year, load up on backs, OLs, and defense. You let Wallace, Brown, and Sanders walk after their original (low round) contracts expire, and keep drafting 3rd-5th rounders at WR to be second tier parts to the offense.

Slapstick
06-11-2012, 04:39 PM
Of course it didn't, the defense got torched by Joe Flacco and Tim Tebow.

If you want 50% TOTAL run pass? You can't pay Ben $15 mil a year. It's flat killing your own team.

You pay Lefty $3 mil a year, load up on backs, OLs, and defense. You let Wallace, Brown, and Sanders walk after their original (low round) contracts expire, and keep drafting 3rd-5th rounders at WR to be second tier parts to the offense.

Or...

You keep Ben and the WRs, design an offense that isn't predictable and use the legitimate threat of a run to create big plays in a play-action passing game...

Crash
06-11-2012, 04:42 PM
Or...

You keep Ben and the WRs, design an offense that isn't predictable and use the legitimate threat of a run to create big plays in a play-action passing game...

And the % of run pass total that you want is???????

Answer that, then talk.

Highest yards per carry in TEN SEASONS in 2011 behind an injury filled OL.

Remember to treat Chubbs Peterson the same way.

Slapstick
06-11-2012, 04:48 PM
And the % of run pass total that you want is???????

Answer that, then talk.

Highest yards per carry in TEN SEASONS in 2011 behind an injury filled OL.

Remember to treat Chubbs Peterson the same way.

It's easy:

I want the 1st down run/pass ratio to be closer to 50%, actually a lower run% than last year...

That should allow more 3rd and short or medium, which can open the entire playbook on 3rd downs instead of allowing defenses to key on the pass and sacking our QB...

If the overall ratio is skewed slightly to the pass, that's fine...as long as it isn't predictable...

Crash
06-11-2012, 05:01 PM
I want the 1st down run/pass ratio to be closer to 50%

Then why are you arguing? That would be AGREEING with me.

Slapstick
06-11-2012, 05:04 PM
Then why are you arguing? That would be AGREEING with me.


[/COLOR]

The why are you arguing with me? That's been my position since Haley came on board...

It's just the first time you've actually read one of my posts instead of reading a phrase and immediately jumping to a conclusion...

Crash
06-11-2012, 05:07 PM
You're words Slap:


Originally Posted by Slapstick http://www.planetsteelers.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.planetsteelers.com/forums/showthread.php?p=512362#post512362)
The Steelers passed 56% of the time last year...it didn't work..

So again, what's the TOTAL % of run pass that you want? Not first down, TOTAL.

Slapstick
06-11-2012, 05:17 PM
You're words Slap:



So again, what's the TOTAL % of run pass that you want? Not first down, TOTAL.



My words, Crash:


It's easy:

I want the 1st down run/pass ratio to be closer to 50%, actually a lower run% than last year...

That should allow more 3rd and short or medium, which can open the entire playbook on 3rd downs instead of allowing defenses to key on the pass and sacking our QB...

If the overall ratio is skewed slightly to the pass, that's fine...as long as it isn't predictable...

This is actually on this page of the thread, but, I thought if I reposted it when you were paying attention, you would understand...

Slapstick
06-11-2012, 05:25 PM
The way the Steelers seem to be adapting this year is copycatting an aspect of what the Saints and the Patriots do...

In the NFL today, you don't necessarily need a home run threat at RB...I mean, how many SB rings does Adrian Peterson have?

Good passing offenses need to have a chain mover at RB...a guy like Pierre Thomas or BenJarvus Green-Ellis...these guys aren't threats to take it the distance, but they are tremendous chain movers...

Isaac Redman can be that same kind of RB...

I want the overall ratio of pass/run to be in the 50/50 range, though if it is skewed slightly to the pass (not 6%) I'm perfectly fine with that...

By passing more on 1st downs, it allows the threat of running on 2nd and 3rd downs...a legitimate threat with a pile mover like Redman...

Convert a few 2nd and short or 3rd and short with Redman and the defense has to account for him...

Then, play-action pass when their defense has adjusted and you will have single coverage on Wallace, Brown or Sanders...

Boom! Big play!

Crash
06-11-2012, 05:40 PM
You mentioned how 56% total pass "didn't work".

So 2nd time, what is the % of total pass that you want?

You keep moving the target, you say one thing, then you say another.

When you answer the % of total run pass? Then we can proceed.

Crash
06-11-2012, 05:41 PM
Drew Brees and Tom Brady each threw 600+ passes in 2011.

If Haley tries that with Ben? He'll be hung by the Clemente Bridge.

Gotta run the ball like Art wants.

Sugar
06-11-2012, 05:42 PM
I'd like to see 70+% passing. Everything from long balls, interior routes and dump-offs to the backs and everything else. I'd like to see our weapons used as much as possible and spreading the love through the air. We don't have Bubby Brister behind center anymore, so let's pass until Ben complains that it's too much!

Crash
06-11-2012, 05:47 PM
Between 55%-59% is perfect.

Anything under 55% is too little, anything over 59% is too much.

Crash
06-11-2012, 05:51 PM
I want the overall ratio of pass/run to be in the 50/50 range,

Then Ben has to go. As does Wallace and Brown when their deals are up.

You aren't paying Ben $15 mil, Wallace probably MINIMUM $8 mil, and Brown $7 mil to play 1994 football.

Chadman
06-11-2012, 07:20 PM
Chadman likes punting. We should punt more on 1st down. No team will see it coming.

D Rock
06-11-2012, 07:46 PM
Really Crash? It's all about a % for you? That's a pretty short sighted way to look at it.

I'd rather see them do whatever works against each team at any particular time.

If they run 70% of the time and beat the Browns 35-10 I will be perfectly happy. If they pass 70% of the time and beat the Giants 21-20 I will be perfectly happy.


Who cares what the ratios are, as long as it is winning football that week.

costanza2k1
06-11-2012, 07:56 PM
We should probably ask Marino and his SB rings that question.

birtikidis
06-11-2012, 07:58 PM
Yeah, those 8 extra rushing attempts would have stopped Joe Flacco from kicking their ass all year.
He only kicked our ass in the game Ben turned the ball over a gazillion times

birtikidis
06-11-2012, 08:02 PM
Arena football league or nothing!!!!!

birtikidis
06-11-2012, 08:03 PM
Then Ben has to go. As does Wallace and Brown when their deals are up.

You aren't paying Ben $15 mil, Wallace probably MINIMUM $8 mil, and Brown $7 mil to play 1994 football. [/COLOR]
I don't care what we are paying who as long as its efficient WINNING football.

Crash
06-11-2012, 08:10 PM
He only kicked our ass in the game Ben turned the ball over a gazillion times

Yeah that 90 yard drive didn't happen.

Ben in the first game had one turnover at one point, and they were down 29-7.

It was all Ben's fault.

Crash
06-11-2012, 08:11 PM
I don't care what we are paying who as long as its efficient WINNING football.

Well guess what? In the salary cap era? What you pay for is just as important as winning.

By all means, if you guys want to run the ball all day and the Rooney's agree that's fine.

But that also means you have to pay the right players in order to do it.

Chadman
06-11-2012, 08:23 PM
Kapinos is a weapon. Play to the strengths!

squidkid
06-11-2012, 08:56 PM
Dump off passes to who? RBs? How can do that when the backs are blocking?

If you want Ben to take a 5 yard dump on 3rd and 10 and punt? Trade him for Carson Palmer.

You won't win anything, but he'll say healthy all year.

Tight ends? You need to Miller's numbers with Arians.

It was LOCAL YINZER Cowher who didn't use him.

dont complain about the rbs staying in to block, your boy arians did that
idk, id take a dumpoff on 3rd and 10 and hope your rb makes a someone miss instead of ben taking a 15 yard sack and physical abuse just to try to launch a 30-40 yarder(when they only needed 10)
besides, howd they get to 3rd and 10 with ben qbing?
yup, millers numbers are ok. is it his max potential?

steelz09
06-11-2012, 08:57 PM
We don't use the weapons we have. We have to run the ball.

If anything our obsession with the past hurts this football team more than defenses do.

What are you talking about? Arians NEVER utilized his weapons properly. He couldn't even find a way to get Redman the ball and split time w/ Mendenhall.

Heath Miller is another example. The 1st half of the Patriots game was excellent utilization of Heath Miller. Then, the 2nd half, Arians suddenly forgot that Miller was even on the team.

Arians has to be one of the dumbest OCs in the league. Either that, or incredibly hard headed.

Crash
06-11-2012, 09:14 PM
besides, howd they get to 3rd and 10 with ben qbing?

I would say running the ball 58% of the time on 1st down for little or no gain.

When they turn Ben into Carson Palmer, don't bitch. That's what you guys wanted.

D Rock
06-11-2012, 09:43 PM
I would say running the ball 58% of the time on 1st down for little or no gain.

When they turn Ben into Carson Palmer, don't bitch. That's what you guys wanted. [/COLOR]

a QB in the range of 4000 yds, 30 TDs, 12 Ints, and 65% completions?

yeah that would suck...

:rolleyes:

Crash
06-11-2012, 09:52 PM
a QB in the range of 4000 yds, 30 TDs, 12 Ints, and 65% completions?

yeah that would suck...

:rolleyes:

Palmer is the king of garbage time. He's just like Philip Rivers, he does nothing when the game matters, they get way behind, and then teams back off and he looks "good".

Yeah, let's turn Ben into a guy who's never won a playoff game and who quit on his teammates.

Just the kind of "leader" I want in my huddle.

SteelCrazy
06-11-2012, 10:01 PM
And the MINUTE they go away from Marty ball, and it fails? The offense gets blamed for the defense not making plays.

Protecting the defense's reputation is priority #1 in Pittsburgh. Always has been and always will be.

The Defense protects its own reputation by playing lights out all year long. But I guess being ranked 1st in the league almost every year is just Steeler Nations imagination running wild........

Crash
06-11-2012, 10:05 PM
Yeah lights out all year.

Someone forgot to tell Joe Flacco and Tim Tebow.

The defense gets protected when our offense holds the ball.

You can't ignore the countless times this defense gives up points to start games, and when they give up points after we score ourselves.

SteelCrazy
06-11-2012, 10:11 PM
The Ben Agenda is getting old. The guy is great and I wouldnt want any other QB behind Pouncey, but our D is consistent year in and year out. Not saying Ben isnt consistent because he is, but the rest of our Offense leaves a lot to be desired.

Crash
06-11-2012, 10:14 PM
The protect the defense agenda is old. The 4th quarter defense is old. The give back points is old. The giving up points to start games is old.

We hold the ball on offense, the defense looks good.

When that doesn't happen? They usually look bad against quality teams.

SteelCrazy
06-11-2012, 10:20 PM
The protect the defense agenda is old. The 4th quarter defense is old. The give back points is old. The giving up points to start games is old.

We hold the ball on offense, the defense looks good.

When that doesn't happen? They usually look bad against quality teams.

you're right....the defense sucks and holds us back every year

D Rock
06-11-2012, 10:25 PM
The protect the defense agenda is old. The 4th quarter defense is old. The give back points is old. The giving up points to start games is old.

We hold the ball on offense, the defense looks good.

When that doesn't happen? They usually look bad against quality teams.

you don't think any of that has anything to do with the evolution of the game which you cite as the reason why the Steelers needs to pass more and run less?

You can't have it both ways. If the game has changed to the point where the offense needs to pass and score more to keep up with the average, then you can't blame the defense for giving up more points. They are still the league's best defense even if they aren't the defense from years past that you want them to be.

Crash
06-11-2012, 10:25 PM
you're right....the defense sucks and holds us back every year

If any other DC gave 630 yards and 5 TD passes in two straight playoff games they'd be fired.

Not Teflon LeBeau. As long as he can beat up doormats? Ownership is happy.

SteelCrazy
06-11-2012, 10:34 PM
If any other DC gave 630 yards and 5 TD passes in two straight playoff games they'd be fired.

Not Teflon LeBeau. As long as he can beat up doormats? Ownership is happy.

With the D getting younger, we'll see a huge improvement this year. We kept BA for 5 years and he flat out sucked. Ask Todd Haley what he thinks of the old playbook.

Crash
06-11-2012, 10:37 PM
you don't think any of that has anything to do with the evolution of the game which you cite as the reason why the Steelers needs to pass more and run less?

Sure, but the same problems have been there long before Roger Goodell showed up and pussified the NFL.

Dick LeBeau's defense blows 4th quarter leads because his scheme in the 4th quarter stinks.

It's his trademark.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/boxscore?gameId=240912023

That's was LeBeau's first game back. No Roethlisberger, the eveil pass happy BA was not the OC, and you got three short rush TDs from the beloved Jerome Bettis, and they had leads of 14-0 and 21-10.

And what happened in the 4th quarter?

They backed off as usual, they blew the lead, and Tommy Maddox this time, saved LeBeau's ass once again.

And this same stuff, happens CONSTANTLY. Because LeBeau's 4th quarter scheme stinks.

Crash
06-11-2012, 10:39 PM
With the D getting younger, we'll see a huge improvement this year. We kept BA for 5 years and he flat out sucked. Ask Todd Haley what he thinks of the old playbook.

Ask Chiefs fans what they think of Haley's offense the two years he ran it.

The one year he didn't, they made the playoffs.

SteelCrazy
06-11-2012, 10:41 PM
Sure, but the same problems have been there long before Roger Goodell showed up and pussified the NFL.

Dick LeBeau's defense blows 4th quarter leads because his scheme in the 4th quarter stinks.

It's his trademark.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/boxscore?gameId=240912023

That's was LeBeau's first game back. No Roethlisberger, the eveil pass happy BA was not the OC, and you got three short rush TDs from the beloved Jerome Bettis, and they had leads of 14-0 and 21-10.

And what happened in the 4th quarter?

They backed off as usual, they blew the lead, and Tommy Maddox this time, saved LeBeau's ass once again.

And this same stuff, happens CONSTANTLY. Because LeBeau's 4th quarter scheme stinks.

That is one area I will agree with you in........That wussy 10 yard cushion has cost us several games, but they know the risk and feel its our best shot. Look what Tebow did to us when we didnt give that cushion.

grotonsteel
06-11-2012, 10:42 PM
The Defense protects its own reputation by playing lights out all year long. But I guess being ranked 1st in the league almost every year is just Steeler Nations imagination running wild........

I disagree somewhat. If Steelers Offense is not winning TOP battle Steelers Defense will struggle atleast against good QB. Let Haley and Tomlin take the gloves off the offense. If passing is working pass the damn freaking ball 70-80% of the time.

Major reason for playing Marty Ball is to give Steelers Defense a breather. Offense take a hit because of that. Brady will be throwing even when 2 min are left and they are leading by 20 points. Can't say the same about the Steelers Offense.

grotonsteel
06-11-2012, 10:47 PM
I'd like to see 70+% passing. Everything from long balls, interior routes and dump-offs to the backs and everything else. I'd like to see our weapons used as much as possible and spreading the love through the air. We don't have Bubby Brister behind center anymore, so let's pass until Ben complains that it's too much!

I would like to see more passing on first downs and in red zone. I would like to see more 4-wides in the game. Start running the ball when temp drops. If passing is working in a game keep passing the ball peppered with run plays here and there to keep Defense honest. Just don't revert to Marty-Ball.

Ben is the play maker give him the keys. Don't try to run the ball just to please Defense and some fans.

Don't buy a Ferrari and drive through residential area. Take it on a free way or Bonneville.

SteelCrazy
06-11-2012, 10:59 PM
I dont care if we throw 50 times a game or run 40....I just want to win.

BURGH86STEEL
06-11-2012, 11:09 PM
Or...

You keep Ben and the WRs, design an offense that isn't predictable and use the legitimate threat of a run to create big plays in a play-action passing game...

People stated the offense was predictable under Cowher. It's going to be interested to watch how long it takes before people start calling the offense predictable under Haley. It's going to happen, it's just a matter of when???

BURGH86STEEL
06-11-2012, 11:33 PM
What are you talking about? Arians NEVER utilized his weapons properly. He couldn't even find a way to get Redman the ball and split time w/ Mendenhall.

Heath Miller is another example. The 1st half of the Patriots game was excellent utilization of Heath Miller. Then, the 2nd half, Arians suddenly forgot that Miller was even on the team.

Arians has to be one of the dumbest OCs in the league. Either that, or incredibly hard headed.

Examples can be provided that Arians used the weapons on the team properly. You provide one when you stated, "The 1st half of the Patriots game was excellent utilization of Heath Miller." Maybe Ben forgot about Miller? Maybe the Patriots did a few things defensively to take Miller away? There could be a number of reasons why Miller didn't receive more passes in the second half.

Mendenhall was the more primary RB. Mendenhall is a faster, more explosive, and better all around RB then Redman. Why should he split time with Redman? I could understand a few more carries for Redman. I don't understand why Mendenhall should had split time with Redman.

steeler_fan_in_t.o.
06-12-2012, 12:37 AM
I am all for it. Infact i want Steelers offense to do both effectively.

Problem is when you start playing Marty-ball after taking lead. Predicitable Offensive play calling along with turnstile O-line was a major issue.

I agree. We were spoiled when we were in a situation in which everyone knew we were running with the lead, yet we could still pound it effectively. Unfortunately Jerome Bettis has retired and that situation no longer exists.

Shawn
06-12-2012, 01:31 AM
While teams like the Packers and Pats seem very good...especially at passing the ball. They will never be as good as a team who can do it all well, and adapt to the weaknesses of opposing Ds.

BURGH86STEEL
06-12-2012, 05:30 AM
While teams like the Packers and Pats seem very good...especially at passing the ball. They will never be as good as a team who can do it all well, and adapt to the weaknesses of opposing Ds.


Some would say those teams play to their offensive strengths (their QB's). I don't think they are too concerned adapting to the weaknesses of the opposition. Those teams put a lot of points on the board.

Slapstick
06-12-2012, 07:21 AM
I would say running the ball 58% of the time on 1st down for little or no gain.

[/COLOR]

But, you keep pointing out that the Steelers had the highest YpC in 10 years...

If they ran the ball 58% on first down but passed 56% of the time overall, those first down runs had to be productive...

Unless the highst YpC in 10 years still wasn't running effectively...in whcih case Arians had to go...

Slapstick
06-12-2012, 07:24 AM
Well guess what? In the salary cap era? What you pay for is just as important as winning.

By all means, if you guys want to run the ball all day and the Rooney's agree that's fine.

But that also means you have to pay the right players in order to do it.


Exactly.

That's why RBs have become a commodity while franchise QBs earn the big bucks...

If you find an effective RB on the cheap (James Starks, Pierre Thomas, Isaac Redman) you can still get your cap value out of the QB...

Slapstick
06-12-2012, 07:29 AM
Drew Brees and Tom Brady each threw 600+ passes in 2011.

If Haley tries that with Ben? He'll be hung by the Clemente Bridge.



As well he should...

Ben is not a "dink and dunk" guy like Brees and Brady...

In Ben's most productive season, he had just over 400 attempts...when the Packers beat the Steelers in the SB, Rodgers had about 450 pass attempts...

That can be plenty of pass attempts for a great QB (30 per game) to be effective...If Ben never hits 5,000 yards, I don't care...that's just for stats geeks and fantasy owners...

feltdizz
06-12-2012, 08:29 AM
Some would say those teams play to their offensive strengths (their QB's). I don't think they are too concerned adapting to the weaknesses of the opposition. Those teams put a lot of points on the board.

The Pats put a lot of points on the board except when they play the Giants. LOL...

The Saints struggled vs a more balanced team last year in the playoffs. The Saints also needed an onside kick and a pick 6 to beat the Colts.

WE spend a lot of time talking about these explosive offenses but they aren't winning more than us... just winning in a different style and when they lose in the playoffs it tends to be lopsided and ugly.

feltdizz
06-12-2012, 08:37 AM
I would say running the ball 58% of the time on 1st down for little or no gain.

When they turn Ben into Carson Palmer, don't bitch. That's what you guys wanted. [/COLOR]

You really have a problem with reading comprehension. Tweaking Ben's game isn't turning him into someone else. It's taking a little bit of what makes Carson, Peyton, Rodgers, etc good and adding it to Ben's arsenal. Ben is getting older and has some mileage on his body...

It's no different then telling Mend to add a little Bettis to his inside run game. Doesn't mean he has to put 80 lbs on his body and lose all his speed. Just take what's there instead of trying to run 80 yards on every play.

All the FO and some fans want is for Ben to stay cleaner while doing what he does best... no one wants him to play scared or throw the ball out of bounds before he hikes the ball. However, if the RB is open in the flat early.... throw it to him instead of running around for 5 seconds and taking a sack on 3rd and 6 when we are in FG range.

SteelAddicted
06-12-2012, 08:47 AM
Just looking at the OP's original stats I would relate the 8 more carries per win to having a lead in the game. When you're behind you tend to run the ball less. Today's NFL is a passing league, I think it's pretty obvious. I think it's important to have a balanced attack, but those 20-28 stats to me don't relate to rushing winning or losing.

Slapstick
06-12-2012, 08:58 AM
Just looking at the OP's original stats I would relate the 8 more carries per win to having a lead in the game. When you're behind you tend to run the ball less. Today's NFL is a passing league, I think it's pretty obvious. I think it's important to have a balanced attack, but those 20-28 stats to me don't relate to rushing winning or losing.

And that's the old(?) adage: Pass to score, run to win...

steelz09
06-12-2012, 10:31 AM
Examples can be provided that Arians used the weapons on the team properly. You provide one when you stated, "The 1st half of the Patriots game was excellent utilization of Heath Miller." Maybe Ben forgot about Miller? Maybe the Patriots did a few things defensively to take Miller away? There could be a number of reasons why Miller didn't receive more passes in the second half.

Mendenhall was the more primary RB. Mendenhall is a faster, more explosive, and better all around RB then Redman. Why should he split time with Redman? I could understand a few more carries for Redman. I don't understand why Mendenhall should had split time with Redman.

One half of the Patriots game doesn't give Arians a free pass for years of Heath being under utilized. Those dink and dunk passes to Heath would work every single game. And don't give me the excuse that Heath needs to stay in and block because the o-line sucked. The dink and dunk passes would have mitigated teams from sending the house on inside blitzes. Instead, Arians would have Heath Miller in a max protect type scheme and sending his WRs 20+ yards down field when everyone watching the game would know Ben would be sacked.

Why split time w/ Redman? Are you serious? How about that he's a far superior inside runner. He has better overall vision on inside runs which is needed when you don't have gaping holes. How about splitting time to keep your primary RB fresh?

Crash
06-12-2012, 10:48 AM
For the record people who like Savior Haley point to the one year he had with Tony Moeaki as a good reason he was hired. They claim he can "use Heath" the same way.

Now, compare Moeaki's one season with Haley, to Miller's production with Arians?

What's the problem?

Once again, perception isn't reality.

Crash
06-12-2012, 10:53 AM
Ben is not a "dink and dunk" guy like Brees and Brady...

But that's exactly what they are turning him into.

But here's the catch? I think Ben would flourish in that system.

But they have to eliminate the obsession with multiple TE sets and use three wide as a base.

grotonsteel
06-12-2012, 10:54 AM
One half of the Patriots game doesn't give Arians a free pass for years of Heath being under utilized. Those dink and dunk passes to Heath would work every single game. And don't give me the excuse that Heath needs to stay in and block because the o-line sucked. The dink and dunk passes would have mitigated teams from sending the house on inside blitzes. Instead, Arians would have Heath Miller in a max protect type scheme and sending his WRs 20+ yards down field when everyone watching the game would know Ben would be sacked.



I think you are over-rating Heath Miller way too much. Heath Miller is great complete TE but he is slow. I am sorry to say this but he is not Gronk or Finley or Grisham.

Guess what how many catches Finley had ...55. Heath Miller had 51.

So you want your TE to get 100 rec. You want to run the ball more. You want your QB to be captain checkdown. Its recipe for disaster.

Throw the ball more and increase Heath Miller Rec. Don't take receptions away from Wallace and AB.

Crash
06-12-2012, 10:55 AM
However, if the RB is open in the flat early.... throw it to him instead of running around for 5 seconds and taking a sack on 3rd and 6 when we are in FG range.

If it's 3rd and 6? The RB is blocking.

steelz09
06-12-2012, 10:58 AM
But that's exactly what they are turning him into.

But here's the catch? I think Ben would flourish in that system.

But they have to eliminate the obsession with multiple TE sets and use three wide as a base.


[/COLOR]

He doesn't need to be a dink and dunk passer. But not throwing to the open guy because he's a short range target is simply idiotic. I'd rather have a 3rd and 5 instead of a 3rd and 15 because Ben took a sack waiting for a 30+ yard play. Ben just doesn't need to force the issue. The big plays will happen.

steelz09
06-12-2012, 11:03 AM
I think you are over-rating Heath Miller way too much. Heath Miller is great complete TE but he is slow. I am sorry to say this but he is not Gronk or Finley or Grisham.

Guess what how many catches Finley had ...55. Heath Miller had 51.

So you want your TE to get 100 rec. You want to run the ball more. You want your QB to be captain checkdown. Its recipe for disaster.

Throw the ball more and increase Heath Miller Rec. Don't take receptions away from Wallace and AB.

It doesn't take Gronk or Finley to sit in the zone where the inside backers just blitzed from. I don't want Heath running 20+ yards down field. I want the OC to ADJUST when it's obvious an adjustment needs to be made. For example, if they are going to bring the house up the middle with their ILB's, we're going to send Heath right in the zone for a 5-10 yard gain.. one after another until they stop. Then, when they stop, we'll attack them w/ Brown, Sanders and Wallace 20 yards down field on the outside.

Crash
06-12-2012, 11:07 AM
It doesn't take Gronk or Finley to sit in the zone where the inside backers just blitzed from. I don't want Heath running 20+ yards down field. I want the OC to ADJUST when it's obvious an adjustment needs to be made. For example, if they are going to bring the house up the middle with their ILB's, we're going to send Heath right in the zone for a 5-10 yard gain.. one after another until they stop. Then, when they stop, we'll attack them w/ Brown, Sanders and Wallace 20 yards down field on the outside.

But how do we run the ball with all that passing?

steelz09
06-12-2012, 11:14 AM
But how do we run the ball with all that passing?


It doesn't take Gronk or Finley to sit in the zone where the inside backers just blitzed from. I don't want Heath running 20+ yards down field. I want the OC to ADJUST when it's obvious an adjustment needs to be made. For example, if they are going to bring the house up the middle with their ILB's, we're going to send Heath right in the zone for a 5-10 yard gain.. one after another until they stop. Then, when they stop, we'll attack them w/ Brown, Sanders and Wallace 20 yards down field on the outside.

Easy... in the above scenario..

First, the D had to adjust to those short passes to Heath.
Secondly, the D had to adjust again to the deeper passes to our WR's. That will "back 'em up a bit" and get the D off the line.
Then, hit them w/ the running attack.

I don't care if it's pass to setup run (like the above) or run to setup pass. That's going to change depending on the defensive scheme we're facing as well as the team. As the OC, you can't pigeon hole one way vs. the other. You need to be dynamic... especially if the original game plan isn't working.

Shawn
06-12-2012, 12:16 PM
Some would say those teams play to their offensive strengths (their QB's). I don't think they are too concerned adapting to the weaknesses of the opposition. Those teams put a lot of points on the board.

I would say that as well. But they will never be as good as they could be without a run game. There will always be a team like the Giants who come along an expose a weakness other teams can't expose. In those situations being able to be dominant running the ball gives you diversity and sets everything else up.

Captain Lemming
06-12-2012, 01:09 PM
So people want to give Redman and company more touches and then bitch about 21st scoring offense??? Wow...:roll:

Highest points scored with Ben as QB. 2007, only year under Arians where we ran more than passed. 2005 under BC we ran more than passed. Only two seasons we had a top 10 scoring offense. After 2007 we scored less every season with Ben passing more than we ran. This despite having the fleetest set of receivers in team history. I am not suggesting"Marty ball". Ben threw 32 TDs in 2007 throwing to slow Hines and QB Randle El, in ONE HUNDRED less attempts than last year. We ran MORE in 2007, people feared the run, and Ben created the most actual points in his career. Play action WORKED back then and Ben could deluge you with points. Get away from the obsession with yardage and attempts and look at scoring. THAT is the point about Haleys comments about Ben's benefiting from play action. We have done BOTH and Ben was more effective (not just prolific) when our run game is in gear.

Crash
06-12-2012, 01:15 PM
Um, Randall El wasn't even on the 2007 Steelers.

That's why I don't take you seriously. You read stats, nothing else.

Slapstick
06-12-2012, 01:27 PM
But that's exactly what they are turning him into.

But here's the catch? I think Ben would flourish in that system.

But they have to eliminate the obsession with multiple TE sets and use three wide as a base.


[/COLOR]

If that's what they want to turn Ben into and you think he will flourish, what's the problem?


The multiple TE sets are good for situational football...red zone and the like....just as 4WR and even 5WR sets should be part of the playbook for situational football as well...


I don't think anyone would ever have a problem with running a 3WR base with Wallace, Sanders and Brown along with Heath at TE and Redman or Mendenhall at RB...I don't think that Haley or Art II would have a problem with that either...

Slapstick
06-12-2012, 01:29 PM
Um, Randall El wasn't even on the 2007 Steelers.

That's why I don't take you seriously. You read stats, nothing else.

And this is yet another Ad Hominem argument...

Whether or not Randle El was on the team, it doesn't make the point invalid...

Crash
06-12-2012, 01:32 PM
If that's what they want to turn Ben into and you think he will flourish, what's the problem?

Because tweaking Ben's game isn't the issue.

Ben can dink and dunk all day and you know what?

If the Steelers defense is on the field late in the 4th quarter against a quality QB in a one score game? They will up that tying score.

Crash
06-12-2012, 01:33 PM
If that's what they want to turn Ben into and you think he will flourish, what's the problem?


The multiple TE sets are good for situational football...red zone and the like....just as 4WR and even 5WR sets should be part of the playbook for situational football as well...


I don't think anyone would ever have a problem with running a 3WR base with Wallace, Sanders and Brown along with Heath at TE and Redman or Mendenhall at RB...I don't think that Haley or Art II would have a problem with that either...

Art II would. No doubt. Haley will do what Art tells him to do.

Slapstick
06-12-2012, 01:34 PM
Because tweaking Ben's game isn't the issue.

Ben can dink and dunk all day and you know what?

If the Steelers defense is on the field late in the 4th quarter against a quality QB in a one score game? They will up that tying score. [/COLOR]

If Ben tweaks his game, there should be no reason why the game is close in the 4th quarter...

Slapstick
06-12-2012, 01:35 PM
Art II would. No doubt. Haley will do what Art tells him to do.

I do doubt it.

Crash
06-12-2012, 01:44 PM
If Ben tweaks his game, there should be no reason why the game is close in the 4th quarter...

Sure they will. Because once we get a lead they'll stop throwing. And then LeBeau's defense will **** it up, and the offense will bail him out.

Like I linked last night, LeBeau's first game back, no Ben, Arians was the WR coach, and they had leads of 14-0 and 21-10 after three quarters.

What happened? The LeBeau prevent struck again.

grotonsteel
06-12-2012, 01:52 PM
Sure they will. Because once we get a lead they'll stop throwing. And then LeBeau's defense will **** it up, and the offense will bail him out.


Run-Run-Pass-Punt offense is the biggest culprit once Steelers take the lead. This offense was okay in 90s but not now. Not only you screw entire offense rhythm you just cool down your guns.

Keep passing the ball if it is working. If your Offense gobble up only 2 min of the clock instead of 5 min who cares as long as they score. If that forces Defense on the field for more time well so be it.

Slapstick
06-12-2012, 01:52 PM
Sure they will. Because once we get a lead they'll stop throwing. And then LeBeau's defense will **** it up, and the offense will bail him out.

Like I linked last night, LeBeau's first game back, no Ben, Arians was the WR coach, and they had leads of 14-0 and 21-10 after three quarters.

What happened? The LeBeau prevent struck again.

Please...

You complain about the defense giving up the lead in the Houston game after the offense tied it in the 4th quarter...

The offense tied it at 10...so, for three quarters, the offense managed 3 points...

Most teams are happy if the defense can hold the opposing team to a totla of 17 points...with the firepower the Steelers have at QB and WR, they should be ecstatic when the Steelers D holds an opponent to 10 points through 3 quarters...

This is why Arians is gone...

This is why fans have such high hopes for the guy you call "the golf coach"...because he seems to find a way to use the talent he has on the roster...

And, don't bring up the Charlie Weis thing again...when Weis called the plays in 2010, he had Cassel for 15 games and Charles for 16...

In 2011, Cassel played 9 games and Charles played in 2...

Crash
06-12-2012, 01:57 PM
The offense tied it at 10...so, for three quarters, the offense managed 3 points...

And in the first quarter, the Steelers defense not only gave up a TD on their first series, but they were on the field for almost 12 MINUTES before our offense was on the field ONCE.

Like I just told you, context, not box scores and stat sheets.

Crash
06-12-2012, 02:02 PM
And 2009? How'd the Chiefs do that year Slap?

Don't use injuries to defend Haley and rip Arians for 2011. Treat Arians the same way you treat the local guy.

Slapstick
06-12-2012, 02:09 PM
And in the first quarter, the Steelers defense not only gave up a TD on their first series, but they were on the field for almost 12 MINUTES before our offense was on the field ONCE.

Like I just told you, context, not box scores and stat sheets.



[/COLOR]

But, I thought a game was 60 minutes...isn't that what you always say?

So, the offense is excused for managing a pathetic three points through three quarters because the opponent had one long drive to start the game?

Now who's making excuses?

Slapstick
06-12-2012, 02:10 PM
And 2009? How'd the Chiefs do that year Slap?

Don't use injuries to defend Haley and rip Arians for 2011. Treat Arians the same way you treat the local guy.

I've never used injuries to rip Arians. I used Arians' impotent offense to rip Arians.

Crash
06-12-2012, 02:12 PM
But, I thought a game was 60 minutes...isn't that what you always say?

The Steelers offense had 48 minutes of football left before they saw the field in Houston.

Certainly you don't hate Arians enough to bash him for a game that he didn't get a chance to call ONE PLAY until 12 minutes were off the clock, correct?

This defense is overrated. If the Steelers offense doesn't hold the ball, the defense will struggle against good QBs.

Always has, always will.

But they'll sack some sad sack 5 times and the're "great".

Crash
06-12-2012, 02:14 PM
I've never used injuries to rip Arians. I used Arians' impotent offense to rip Arians.

So the Chiefs offense was impotent also.

It can't be one for Arians and the other for the Pittsburgh guy.

Has to be the same for both.

Slapstick
06-12-2012, 02:18 PM
So the Chiefs offense was impotent also.

It can't be one for Arians and the other for the Pittsburgh guy.

Has to be the same for both.

Why would I want to rip Haley's offense for the Chiefs? I would rather rip Romeo Crennel's offense...

Crash
06-12-2012, 02:20 PM
Why would I want to rip Haley's offense for the Chiefs? I would rather rip Romeo Crennel's offense...

That a boy Slap, dance because your biased BS is exposed.

Slapstick
06-12-2012, 02:25 PM
That a boy Slap, dance because your biased BS is exposed.

That's cute. MY biased BS...

Did Arians call the plays for the Steelers in all of 2011?

Did Haley call the plays for the Chiefs in all of 2011?

If you're going to give Weis all the credit for the Chiefs' success in 2010, shouldn't Bill Muir be taking a beating for 2011?

Crash
06-12-2012, 02:28 PM
That's cute. MY biased BS...

Did Arians call the plays for the Steelers in all of 2011?

Did Haley call the plays for the Chiefs in all of 2011?

Haley ran their offense until he was fired. Haley ran their offense in 2009 after he ran off Chan Gailey in pre-season.

The dude is a wacko, but because his Daddy worked for us we are now stuck with him.

And if Art II forced him on Tomlin like some suggest? I can't see Tomlin staying here when it's time to re-up. He'll go somewhere else where he's allowed to pick his own staff.

Slapstick
06-12-2012, 02:29 PM
Haley ran their offense until he was fired. Haley ran their offense in 2009 after he ran off Chan Gailey in pre-season.


So, he did call plays in 2010?

papillon
06-12-2012, 02:30 PM
Haley ran their offense until he was fired. Haley ran their offense in 2009 after he ran off Chan Gailey in pre-season.

The dude is a wacko, but because his Daddy worked for us we are now stuck with him.

And if Art II forced him on Tomlin like some suggest? I can't see Tomlin staying here when it's time to re-up. He'll go somewhere else where he's allowed to pick his own staff.

Yes, Mike Tomlin certainly appears to be completely p1ssed off at Art Rooney, because of his meddling and is looking for employment elsewhere.

Pappy

Crash
06-12-2012, 02:34 PM
So, he did call plays in 2010?

Weiss ran their 2010 offense, he's credited with their success and getting Cassel to play well.

Then Haley ran him off also, and Weiss went to Florida.

No one wants to work with Todd Haley once they deal with him. Whiz's assistants pleaded with him not to bring Haley back.

Slapstick
06-12-2012, 02:35 PM
Weiss ran their 2010 offense, he's credited with their success and getting Cassel to play well.


And Muir ran their 2011 offense...

Crash
06-12-2012, 02:37 PM
And Muir ran their 2011 offense...

Not when Haley was there.

Slapstick
06-12-2012, 02:45 PM
Not when Haley was there.

So, when it supports your argument, Haley didn't call plays...

Then, when circumstances change and it does support your argument, Haley did call plays...

Got it...

Crash
06-12-2012, 02:47 PM
So, when it supports your argument, Haley didn't call plays...

Then, when circumstances change and it does support your argument, Haley did call plays...

Got it...

Haley was fired IN SEASON Slap. You knew that, right?

He ran Weiss off, he fired Gailey before the 2009 season.

The dude's a mental midget.

And now we're stuck with him.

Slapstick
06-12-2012, 02:48 PM
Haley was fired IN SEASON Slap. You knew that, right?


Yep. If he took over the playcalling, it might have saved his job...

But, we'll never know...

Crash
06-12-2012, 02:51 PM
Yep. If he took over the playcalling, it might have saved his job

Nope, done. His own paranoia cost him his job. In a way I wish Hines was still here. Those two with their schitzo behavior and paranoia's in the same building would have been quite a sight to see.

Slapstick
06-12-2012, 02:55 PM
Nope, done. His own paranoia cost him his job. In a way I wish Hines was still here. Those two with their schitzo behavior and paranoia's in the same building would have been quite a sight to see.

It wasn't paranoia if Scott Pioli was really out to get him...

Crash
06-12-2012, 02:57 PM
It wasn't paranoia if Scott Pioli was really out to get him...

Why would the guy who hired him and known and worked with him for YEARS prior be out to get him?

Says here that Pioli finally realized what everyone else does when they come in contact with Haley: He's a loon.

Slapstick
06-12-2012, 03:05 PM
Why would the guy who hired him and known and worked with him for YEARS prior be out to get him?

Why indeed?

Personally, I think that the situation you described with Hines and Haley actually happened in KC with Haley and Pioli...

feltdizz
06-12-2012, 03:13 PM
I've heard a few stories about Pioloi being a nutjob....

...and Weiss tends to get undeserved credit due to being the Pats OC. Weiss wasn't run off by Haley, he left because his son wants to get into coaching and he will bring him into the fold at Florida.

feltdizz
06-12-2012, 03:15 PM
Whiz's assistants pleaded with him not to bring Haley back.

...and the AZ offense has been awesome ever since... sarcasm*

Crash
06-12-2012, 03:16 PM
As an OC? Weiss is aces. He's like Norv Turner. I wouldn't let Norv Turner manage a McDonalds.

But as an OC? I'd take him in a minute.

Just like Wade, as a HC he's awful. But as a DC? Top notch.

Crash
06-12-2012, 03:17 PM
...and the AZ offense has been awesome ever since... sarcasm*

Haley thought the 2007 Cards were better off starting Matt Leinert over Kurt Warner.

Friggin' genius.

Slapstick
06-12-2012, 03:19 PM
Haley thought the 2007 Cards were better off starting Matt Leinert over Kurt Warner.

Friggin' genius.

Bidwell should have stepped in and told Whis to start Warner...

RuthlessBurgher
06-12-2012, 03:39 PM
Haley ran their offense until he was fired. Haley ran their offense in 2009 after he ran off Chan Gailey in pre-season.

The dude is a wacko, but because his Daddy worked for us we are now stuck with him.

And if Art II forced him on Tomlin like some suggest? I can't see Tomlin staying here when it's time to re-up. He'll go somewhere else where he's allowed to pick his own staff.

Why do you want Tomlin to stay anyway? He's decided to keep a senile old man who has no clue how to run a defense on the first drive of a game, after the offense scores, or in the 4th quarter. And on offense, he either wanted to keep an O.C. who ran the ball on first down 58% of the time and 65% of the time in the red zone, or he wanted to replace him with a schizo wacko golf coach who only got hired because his Dad worked here a few decades ago. Am I missing anything? Since you seemingly hate every coaching decision this team has made since, well, forever, it seems, shouldn't Tomlin be facing the brunt of your wrath as well?

Crash
06-12-2012, 03:42 PM
That's a great point. Even more reasons for him to go if he has to abide by Art's wishes.

Tomlin can't fire LeBeau. Too many Yinzers would roast him for it and I don't think II would let him anyway.

hawaiiansteel
06-12-2012, 04:01 PM
Why do you want Tomlin to stay anyway? He's decided to keep a senile old man who has no clue how to run a defense on the first drive of a game, after the offense scores, or in the 4th quarter. And on offense, he either wanted to keep an O.C. who ran the ball on first down 58% of the time and 65% of the time in the red zone, or he wanted to replace him with a schizo wacko golf coach who only got hired because his Dad worked here a few decades ago. Am I missing anything? Since you seemingly hate every coaching decision this team has made since, well, forever, it seems, shouldn't Tomlin be facing the brunt of your wrath as well?


fire Tomlin, the senile old DC and the golf coach.

cut Sanders, AB and Wallace since we won't be throwing the ball on every down.

and most of all, trade Ben since we aren't utilizing his talents to the utmost.

that should about do it I think...

feltdizz
06-12-2012, 04:05 PM
Haley thought the 2007 Cards were better off starting Matt Leinert over Kurt Warner.

Friggin' genius.

I don't think it had anything to do with being better off. Cards invested in LEinart and wanted him to be the future but he wasn't up to it.

RuthlessBurgher
06-12-2012, 04:15 PM
fire Tomlin, the senile old DC and the golf coach.

cut Sanders, AB and Wallace since we won't be throwing the ball on every down.

and most of all, trade Ben since we aren't utilizing his talents to the utmost.

that should about do it I think...

Every yinzer's dream...if only we could bring back the glory days or Walter Abercrombie toting the rock...

Crash
06-12-2012, 04:56 PM
I don't think it had anything to do with being better off. Cards invested in LEinart and wanted him to be the future but he wasn't up to it.

What? You mean they used Leinert because they paid him big money? I'll be damned.

flippy
06-12-2012, 05:03 PM
Every yinzer's dream...if only we could bring back the glory days or Walter Abercrombie toting the rock...

And Frank Pollard as a change of pace.

Walter and Frank in the pony package.

Now we're talking.

steelz09
06-12-2012, 05:54 PM
Please...

You complain about the defense giving up the lead in the Houston game after the offense tied it in the 4th quarter...

The offense tied it at 10...so, for three quarters, the offense managed 3 points...

Most teams are happy if the defense can hold the opposing team to a totla of 17 points...with the firepower the Steelers have at QB and WR, they should be ecstatic when the Steelers D holds an opponent to 10 points through 3 quarters...

This is why Arians is gone...

This is why fans have such high hopes for the guy you call "the golf coach"...because he seems to find a way to use the talent he has on the roster...

And, don't bring up the Charlie Weis thing again...when Weis called the plays in 2010, he had Cassel for 15 games and Charles for 16...

In 2011, Cassel played 9 games and Charles played in 2...

Right ... We should never lose if our defense holds a team to 17 teams. NEVER. With our weapons, we have NO excuse to close 17 or less. We shouldn't be under 24 and that's on average.

grotonsteel
06-12-2012, 06:01 PM
Right ... We should never lose if our defense holds a team to 17 teams. NEVER.

You will always lose if you allow J Scott to go against Mario Williams away from home. Every QB will get happy feet seeing that matchup.

feltdizz
06-12-2012, 06:46 PM
What? You mean they used Leinert because they paid him big money? I'll be damned.

I think it had nore to do with wanting Leinart to solidify the QB position for the next 10 years...

hawaiiansteel
06-12-2012, 06:54 PM
I think it had more to do with wanting Leinart to solidify the QB position for the next 10 years...

and I think it had a lot to do with the Cardinals just being the Cardinals...

Eich
06-12-2012, 06:59 PM
fire Tomlin, the senile old DC and the golf coach.

cut Sanders, AB and Wallace since we won't be throwing the ball on every down.

and most of all, trade Ben since we aren't utilizing his talents to the utmost.

that should about do it I think...

Yep - and bring in real team guys like TO, Moss, Jeff George, Antonio Bryant. LOL !

You'd think this team was a perennial cellar dweller like the Bungles & Stains, the way that Crash rips them and their decisions.

Crash
06-12-2012, 07:20 PM
Yep - and bring in real team guys like TO, Moss, Jeff George, Antonio Bryant. LOL !

You'd think this team was a perennial cellar dweller like the Bungles & Stains, the way that Crash rips them and their decisions.

Actually the way Art treats his $102 million QB you'd think he was a ringless choker like Kordell Stewart was.

Hell Kordell got MORE RESPECT than Ben gets.

BURGH86STEEL
06-12-2012, 07:21 PM
The Pats put a lot of points on the board except when they play the Giants. LOL...

The Saints struggled vs a more balanced team last year in the playoffs. The Saints also needed an onside kick and a pick 6 to beat the Colts.

WE spend a lot of time talking about these explosive offenses but they aren't winning more than us... just winning in a different style and when they lose in the playoffs it tends to be lopsided and ugly.

The bottom line is the Saints and Pats score points. Turnovers were the problem for the Saints vs the Niners. The Saints gave the ball away 5 times. Not going to win a lot of games giving the ball away. That being said, the Saints still scored 32 points with 5 turnovers vs the Niners.

Many fans believe the Steelers offense should be on par with the Saints and Pats, I don't. I know the Steelers don't have the type of QB that's proven he can take the Steeler's offense to the next level. I will remain skeptical of Ben's ability to take the offense to next level until he gets it done. People can talk about the great weapons of the Steelers offense all they want. The offense will struggle to score points if the QB can't produce TD's when the opportunities are available.

Crash
06-12-2012, 07:24 PM
The offense will struggle to score points if the QB can't produce TD's when the opportunities are available.

Dammit Ben! Hand off better!

BURGH86STEEL
06-12-2012, 07:52 PM
One half of the Patriots game doesn't give Arians a free pass for years of Heath being under utilized. Those dink and dunk passes to Heath would work every single game. And don't give me the excuse that Heath needs to stay in and block because the o-line sucked. The dink and dunk passes would have mitigated teams from sending the house on inside blitzes. Instead, Arians would have Heath Miller in a max protect type scheme and sending his WRs 20+ yards down field when everyone watching the game would know Ben would be sacked.

Why split time w/ Redman? Are you serious? How about that he's a far superior inside runner. He has better overall vision on inside runs which is needed when you don't have gaping holes. How about splitting time to keep your primary RB fresh?
Can you tell me how many times Heath was the primary target in the offense? If you can answer that question you will have a better idea how often he was being utilized as a pass catching threat. Heaths not the type of TE that will catch a lot of footballs. He's not as explosive as WR type TE's. I believe you are mistaken if you believe dink and dunk to Heath would work every game.

Redman had approx. 28% of the carries last season. Mendenhall had approx. 57% of the carries. That was almost 50% of Mendenhall's carries. Not good a enough split? I'd say that Mendenhall should had been pretty fresh with 228 carries (14 carries per game).

Redman wasn't going to get more carries based on Mendenhall's abilities. Mendenhall is a better and more complete RB then Redman. Mendenhall can run inside and has the speed to take it outside.

If they had put Redman in the game more, I'd have to read, "The offense was predictable. Everytime Redman came in the game it was a run up the middle." Follow me? That's what fans say all the time.

steelz09
06-12-2012, 08:04 PM
Can you tell me how many times Heath was the primary target in the offense? If you can answer that question you will have a better idea how often he was being utilized as a pass catching threat. Heaths not the type of TE that will catch a lot of footballs. He's not as explosive as WR type TE's. I believe you are mistaken if you believe dink and dunk to Heath would work every game.

Redman had approx. 28% of the carries last season. Mendenhall had approx. 57% of the carries. That was almost 50% of Mendenhall's carries. Not good a enough split? I'd say that Mendenhall should had been pretty fresh with 228 carries (14 carries per game).

Redman wasn't going to get more carries based on Mendenhall's abilities. Mendenhall is a better and more complete RB then Redman. Mendenhall can run inside and has the speed to take it outside.

If they had put Redman in the game more, I'd have to read, "The offense was predictable. Everytime Redman came in the game it was a run up the middle." Follow me? That's what fans say all the time.

#1: You do NOT need to be explosive to sit in a zone 5-10 yards off the line of scrimmage.... my goodness

#2: You said why would I want to split carries and I answered you that 1 of the reasons is to keep Mendenhall fresh. You reply with "I'd say that Mendenhall should had been pretty fresh with 228 carries (14 carries per game)" Isn't that just validating my point?

#3: No, 28% of the total carries is not enough especially considering the o-lines play (or lack thereof) was a better fit for Redmans running style rather than Mendenhall or any of our other running back.

#4: Yes, I follow you but you just proved my point that Arians sucked. You just verified that the majority of the time Redman was in, the Steelers ran the ball. Exactly the predictability and play calling that got him fired. Maybe, just maybe Arians could run some play action w/ Redman in the game. But we can't do that... we can't be unpredictable :lol:

hawaiiansteel
06-12-2012, 08:37 PM
Dammit Ben! Hand off better! [/COLOR]


the Steelers ran 434 times last year in the regular season compared to passing the ball 539 times.

that means we ran the ball less than 45% of the time while passing the ball more than 55% of the time.

Ben did a lot more than just hand the ball off. and if you don't like when runs and passes were called, blame Arians. he's the one who called in the plays...

flippy
06-12-2012, 08:53 PM
Hell Kordell got MORE RESPECT than Ben gets.

Even that's a step too far for you...

C'Mon Crash...:)

Crash
06-12-2012, 09:29 PM
Even that's a step too far for you...

C'Mon Crash...:)

Tell me I'm wrong? Kordell was directly involved in the hiring of Ray Sherman in 1998.

Ben gets a golf coached shoved down his throat with no input or leeway after winning two rings.

Kordell calls Pittsburgh a racist city, says the NFL didn't give him a chance after 2003 because of race, and Rooney allows him to "retire" a Steeler? I would have told him to go sheet in his race card playing hat.

Rooney sat there and let Goodell bend Ben and his team over. He should have came out in public and stated "Ben was not charged, according to the PCP you can't be eligible for suspension unless charged, so any suspensions handed out will be done by US".

But he didn't, he let Goodell make up his own rules for Ben, and did squat.

hawaiiansteel
06-12-2012, 11:30 PM
Tell me I'm wrong

okay, you're wrong.

Kordell was liked as "Slash" but got very little respect from Steelers fans as a QB. the fans even went as far as to question his sexuality, not exactly a sign of respect.

on the other hand, the vast majority of Steelers fans greatly appreciate that Ben is our QB and have tremendous respect for his abilities as our franchise QB which is something that Korkie never received.

Captain Lemming
06-13-2012, 12:32 AM
Um, Randall El wasn't even on the 2007 Steelers.

That's why I don't take you seriously. You read stats, nothing else.

This is why it is sooo fun debating you Crash. :)

OK mr "we run 64.7 percent of the time in the red zone on grass in November when behind by 4 or less" yes "I" an just looking at stats. :)

Cant handle the "substance", of the argument you pick and insignificant detail, and evade the point.

Again Crash let me make it simple:

We are ALWAYS consistent contenders when we run more
We score more when we run more
Even Ben's individual effectiveness (save for yardage) is ALWAYS good when we run more.

We have had a mixed bag....some good years and some bad years when Ben throws more. Ben has both good and bad seasons when we throw more.
The Steelers were a pass heavy team in the only seasons we missed the playoffs with Ben as QB.

That is a fact.

We are ALWAYS a contender with an elite QB in Ben when we run more.

You can EVADE all you want Crash but those are the facts.

Crash
06-13-2012, 01:12 AM
This is why it is sooo fun debating you Crash. :)

OK mr "we run 64.7 percent of the time in the red zone on grass in November when behind by 4 or less" yes "I" an just looking at stats. :)

Cant handle the "substance", of the argument you pick and insignificant detail, and evade the point.

Again Crash let me make it simple:

We are ALWAYS consistent contenders when we run more
We score more when we run more
Even Ben's individual effectiveness (save for yardage) is ALWAYS good when we run more.

We have had a mixed bag....some good years and some bad years when Ben throws more. Ben has both good and bad seasons when we throw more.
The Steelers were a pass heavy team in the only seasons we missed the playoffs with Ben as QB.

That is a fact.

We are ALWAYS a contender with an elite QB in Ben when we run more.

You can EVADE all you want Crash but those are the facts.

And again, all you do is read stats while ignoring facts and context.

What should the Steelers do when Ben has ONE TURNOVER and they are down 29-7 in the second half of a game?

A) Run the ball, chew the clock, and go home?

or

B) Throw and try to get back in the game?

Like I said today, stats don't tell context. If stats just mattered Philip Rivers would be All Pro.

As I said, if you want to run all day? In this NFL? Ben has to go. No sense in paying him $15 mil to hand off.

Crash
06-13-2012, 01:16 AM
okay, you're wrong.

Kordell was liked as "Slash" but got very little respect from Steelers fans as a QB. the fans even went as far as to question his sexuality, not exactly a sign of respect.

on the other hand, the vast majority of Steelers fans greatly appreciate that Ben is our QB and have tremendous respect for his abilities as our franchise QB which is something that Korkie never received.

I wasn't talking about fans, I was talking about within the organization. And you knew this.

It's OK though, we both know why.

Captain Lemming
06-13-2012, 01:27 AM
And again, all you do is read stats while ignoring facts and context.


What should the Steelers do when Ben has ONE TURNOVER and they are down 29-7 in the second half of a game?

A) Run the ball, chew the clock, and go home?

or

B) Throw and try to get back in the game?
Pass obviously. HOWEVER, this team does not find itself in that scenario often enough to skew the numbers for the entire season. So your "point" is not valid.
Like I said today, stats don't tell context. If stats just mattered Philip Rivers would be All Pro. That is true. The problem is that you fail to see that and need Ben to have big passing numbers to validate him.


As I said, if you want to run all day? In this NFL? Ben has to go. No sense in paying him $15 mil to hand off.
No I want what you keep saying now BC did. Score early with plenty of passing and hold the lead with the run. The result is WINS. Funny how during Ben's early years somehow DLs defense wasn't blowing leads the way you say he does now. You talk about "protecting the defense like it is a bad thing. Fact is Crash, it you care about "winning" rather than gaudy yardage numbers for the QB, you would WANT an offense that aids the defense, just as you want defense creating turnovers to aid the offense.

Captain Lemming
06-13-2012, 01:40 AM
if you want to run all day? In this NFL? Ben has to go. No sense in paying him $15 mil to hand off. I don't want to run all day. Just more than we do now. It worked fine in 04, 05, and 07. We scored more that way than we do now and won a championship. We never had a bad year playing that way. An elite QB with a feared run game spells dynasty.

Crash
06-13-2012, 01:43 AM
Funny how during Ben's early years somehow DLs defense wasn't blowing leads the way you say he does now.

Excuse me?

They blew 4th quarter lead in the very first game LeBeau came back, and the eveil pass happy Ben didn't play, and the evil pass happy BA was the WR coach.

They also blew a lead at Jacksonville.

Blew a lead at New York.

2005

Gave up a GW FG after the offense tied the game against the Pats.

Blew a 14-0 lead the next game at San Diego.

Blew a 7 point 4th quarter lead against the Ravens.

Same problems, even when they try and run the ball like you want.

6 blown 4th quarter leads with the beloved Bill Cowher and his run game calling the shots.

You talk about 2007?

Tie the game in Denver, the defense gives it right back. Lose.

Need one stop to beat the Jets? Nope. Lose.

Tie the Jags in game one, the defense gives it right back. Lose.

Need one stop to beat the Jags in the playoffs? Nope. Lose.

Anything else? Those are the three best seasons you yap about, and yet the same ^&*()_ problems remain in the 4th on defense don't they?

Watch the games. You need help? Ask.

Crash
06-13-2012, 02:31 AM
The Steelers were a pass heavy team in the only seasons we missed the playoffs with Ben as QB.

Just so we are clear here, you are blaming BEN for the 2009 season, correct?

Captain Lemming
06-13-2012, 03:00 AM
Just so we are clear here, you are blaming BEN for the 2009 season, correct? [/COLOR]

I am not blaming Ben. Special teams had problems, defense was down. I am not a fan of the pass heavy play calling. YOU SAID we run to protect the defense SO IT MUST BE TRUE.

Bottom line, Ben's career high in YARDAGE, he was very accurate yet we failed to make the playoffs.

We scored more with Ben throwing for nearly 2000 less yards.

Ben played fine but the offense was less effective than 2005.

This is what you miss Crash. Wanting to run more is not a dig on Ben.

Corey Dillon helped Brady win a championship. Randy Moss never did.

Crash
06-13-2012, 03:05 AM
Corey Dillon helped Brady win a championship. Randy Moss never did.

Yeah it was Randy Moss' fault Asante Samuel dropped an INT that would have sealed a 19-0 season and a GW TD for Moss in the Super Bowl.

You need to start WATCHING football.


I am not a fan of the pass heavy play calling.

Well guess what? It's a passing league now.

Crash
06-13-2012, 03:06 AM
Hey Cap, I noticed you skipped this one:

Excuse me?

They blew 4th quarter lead in the very first game LeBeau came back, and the evil pass happy Ben didn't play, and the evil pass happy BA was the WR coach.

They also blew a lead at Jacksonville.

Blew a lead at New York.

2005

Gave up a GW FG after the offense tied the game against the Pats.

Blew a 14-0 lead the next game at San Diego.

Blew a 7 point 4th quarter lead against the Ravens.

Same problems, even when they try and run the ball like you want.

6 blown 4th quarter leads with the beloved Bill Cowher and his run game calling the shots.

You talk about 2007?

Tie the game in Denver, the defense gives it right back. Lose.

Need one stop to beat the Jets? Nope. Lose.

Tie the Jags in game one, the defense gives it right back. Lose.

Need one stop to beat the Jags in the playoffs? Nope. Lose.

Anything else? Those are the three best seasons you yap about, and yet the same ^&*()_ problems remain in the 4th on defense don't they?

Watch the games. You need help? Ask.

Slapstick
06-13-2012, 07:37 AM
What? You mean they used Leinert because they paid him big money? I'll be damned.

But they didn't use him...

Slapstick
06-13-2012, 07:40 AM
Tell me I'm wrong? Kordell was directly involved in the hiring of Ray Sherman in 1998.

Ben gets a golf coached shoved down his throat with no input or leeway after winning two rings.

Kordell calls Pittsburgh a racist city, says the NFL didn't give him a chance after 2003 because of race, and Rooney allows him to "retire" a Steeler? I would have told him to go sheet in his race card playing hat.

Rooney sat there and let Goodell bend Ben and his team over. He should have came out in public and stated "Ben was not charged, according to the PCP you can't be eligible for suspension unless charged, so any suspensions handed out will be done by US".

But he didn't, he let Goodell make up his own rules for Ben, and did squat.

Ben should have kept it in his pants with McNulty and DTF...

SteelAddicted
06-13-2012, 08:28 AM
I think it's pretty simple what the Steelers want to do on offense this year.

They want to have the ability to run the football when the situation calls for it. They want to have a more physical and effective running game. They want to use the run to set up the pass through play action. The Steelers are not going to be a 1st & 2nd down run, 3rd down pass kinda team. The Steelers want to control the game by running if they want and explode the game by passing if they want. The Steelers are implementing a lot of no-huddle to keep teams off balance.

BA's playbook wasn't horrible, however BA refused to call the right plays at the right time. Haley will hopefully be a better playcaller.

JUST-PLAIN-NASTY
06-13-2012, 09:25 AM
I'm one who believes this offense needs dedication to the running game to improve on what we have seen. I know the importance of getting better as a whole and more importantly how that translates to the situational running game. Many are arguing "play to their strength" passing game should be the focus but we have seen that can't be called on all the time to win the games. It has its limitations and it is even more evident against good coaching, talented secondaries, or when weather or field conditions play a role. So play any argument you feel is right...But I don't think Haley's focus will be a 180 & "3 yards and a cloud of dust" football.

Haley is a cerebral coach and he knows what works with the talent he has on the Steelers. But he also knows that having a strength means that the weakness can easily be exploited in the gameplanning by a good coach. That is what we have seen year after year under BA. That is the focus on dedication to the running game and essential to the offense getting better. Here is the fact of the whole situation. Dedication to the running game has absolutely no negative impact on the offense and only positive results will come from it. So why would anyone resist that goal?

papillon
06-13-2012, 09:41 AM
I'm one who believes this offense needs dedication to the running game to improve on what we have seen. I know the importance of getting better as a whole and more importantly how that translates to the situational running game. Many are arguing "play to their strength" passing game should be the focus but we have seen that can't be called on all the time to win the games. It has its limitations and it is even more evident against good coaching, talented secondaries, or when weather or field conditions play a role. So play any argument you feel is right...But I don't think Haley's focus will be a 180 & "3 yards and a cloud of dust" football.

Haley is a cerebral coach and he knows what works with the talent he has on the Steelers. But he also knows that having a strength means that the weakness can easily be exploited in the gameplanning by a good coach. That is what we have seen year after year under BA. That is the focus on dedication to the running game and essential to the offense getting better. Here is the fact of the whole situation. Dedication to the running game has absolutely no negative impact on the offense and only positive results will come from it. So why would anyone resist that goal?

Because that doesn't put the ball in Ben's hands 40 times a game.

Pappy

Crash
06-13-2012, 11:19 AM
Ben should have kept it in his pants with McNulty and DTF...

He had consensual sex with McNulty, and the physical evidence proves that he didn't have intercourse at all with Miss DTF.

Crash
06-13-2012, 11:22 AM
Because that doesn't put the ball in Ben's hands 40 times a game.

Pappy

He threw 34 passes a game. If that's too high, why are you paying him $15 MILLION?

Dedication to the run game is one thing. Running for the sake of running is another thing all together.

The FIRST SIX, red zone first and second down plays in Ben Roethlisberger's Super Bowl career, with two different OCs I might add:

6 runs, 0 passes = 1 TD (run by BEN on 3rd down), 2 FGs.

Again, why are you paying him if you aren't going to use him?

Captain Lemming
06-13-2012, 11:22 AM
Hey Cap, I noticed you skipped this one:

Excuse me?

They blew 4th quarter lead in the very first game LeBeau came back, and the evil pass happy Ben didn't play, and the evil pass happy BA was the WR coach.

They also blew a lead at Jacksonville.


I dont have all year to address all the games you mentioned. I am sure a few are legit comebacks. But not as many as you claim as you also spin stories to make your point. I will just address the first team you mentioned Jax.

I am unsure of what game you refer to here. It looks like 2004 but we WON that game with Ben.

It must be 2005 when Tommy was in am I correct? Is that not the game that ended tied in regulation on with a DL coached corner interception to send the game into overtime?

And please inform us Crash, how exactly did we lose thar game in OT?

You who can remember evey play in Steeler history without looking it up because you alone "watch the games". :)

Somebody MUST have looked at just the scores and does not even remember how we lost that game.

Go ahead Crash look it up, you need not admit it.

Hint DL was in NO WAY at fault for THIS loss.

Crash
06-13-2012, 11:27 AM
I dont have all year to address all the games you mentioned

Translation, Crash just handed me my ass.

Who said anything about losses? You claimed that LeBeau's defense wasn't blowing leads when they played Cowher Ball.

Once again, with facts, that is proven to be inaccurate.

JUST-PLAIN-NASTY
06-13-2012, 11:57 AM
Because that doesn't put the ball in Ben's hands 40 times a game.

Pappy

Well that would be a good thing. In the 5 losses last year including the playoffs...BB averaged 42 drop backs and completed 55% of his passes with a 65% rating. In his 11 wins...BB had 32 drop backs and completed 67% of his passes with a 103% rating. 40% of the season sacks came in those 5 losses and he was sacked every 13 dropbacks on the season. Including the playoff game, BA averaged 37 passing plays per game and 27 rushing plays per game. That's a +10 on passing plays. Simply by the numbers, there isn't any evidence that BB dropping back 40+ times a game is a good thing.

On thing many people are forgetting is what impact pass pro has on the OL from a conditioning standpoint. Your pounding in the trenches is what wins your the battle of attrition. Dropping back 40+ times a game helps the defense win the battle of attrition while you self inflict. Then when the time comes where you "need to" impose your will in the run game...You already wore yourself down. When I played, I would have rather run the ball every play where the yard to go was under 7 on 2nd & 3rd and smack them in the mouth on 1st down to the point where they had to sell out against the run. Then keep them guessing against the PA when they did. You could feel their bodies wearing down as your fired out and took the wind out of them as the game wore on. It got easier and easier as the game went on and when you needed to pass there was no gas left in the tank to rush the QB and when you needed to run the push came from the OL. That part of football will NEVER change even in this QB league.

The Steelers have the QB and can get in a shoot out with the best of them. Come post season, there isn't a next week if the coaches across the field dialed it up. The sure equalizer in football is an effective run game. That is a whole story in itself. But getting positive plays on the ground on 1st down thickens the DC playbook on 2nd. Having shown you can run the ball keeps that playbook thick on 3rd & medium. Equally important is the fact that the seconds are ticking away means your D is resting and making adjustments between series. Just being able to improve the effectiveness and dial it up if & when you have to will seperate the Steelers from the pack. That will put them in a small group of teams where, if needed, they could use it to take away from the other teams strength. This passing offense will benefit and I don't anticipate a drop off. If the D picks up the TO & sacks now that Woodley & Harrison are healthy...The play count & opportunities will be there.

Crash
06-13-2012, 12:00 PM
In the 5 losses last year including the playoffs...BB averaged 42 drop backs and completed 55% of his passes with a 65% rating.

And 4 of the five losses the defense gave up points on their opening series. 3 of which, before the offense ever saw a blade of grass.

Captain Lemming
06-13-2012, 12:57 PM
Who said anything about losses? You claimed that LeBeau's defense wasn't blowing leads when they played Cowher Ball.

Once again, with facts, that is proven to be inaccurate.

Oh so NOW you define blown leads as including WINS? Up by 14 we win by 7? Is that what you mean? :)
That is too funny.
Is your case THAT WEAK CRASH?
A skeptic might think that you are changing the debate. :)

But let us go by that definition. Are you now saying that you were talking about the 2004 game that we won because you said "Ben didn't play" and he was in the 2004 game.

We all know you meant the 2005 game so PLEASE tell us how DL was at fault?

JUST-PLAIN-NASTY
06-13-2012, 12:57 PM
And 4 of the five losses the defense gave up points on their opening series. 3 of which, before the offense ever saw a blade of grass.


[/COLOR]

The Steelers went 1-5 for 3 points in their opening drives in those games. I don't see how 3 punts, an INT, and one FG equates to the O pulling their weight. I'm not dismissing the Steelers D by any stretch. They looked aged and slow as the year went on. There is room for improvement on both side of the ball.

Crash
06-13-2012, 01:02 PM
Oh so NOW you define blown leads as including WINS?

Always have. Just because the offense bails LeBeau out that doesn't let him off the hook when his prevent defense bites him in the ass.


Are you talking about the 2004 game that we won because you said "Ben didn't play" and he was in the 2004 game.

Oh for Christ sake, the defense blew a 4th quarter lead in Jacksonville in 2004, Ben played.

The defense blew the lead against the RAIDERS in 2004, Ben didn't play.

READ!

Captain Lemming
06-13-2012, 01:04 PM
Simply by the numbers, there isn't any evidence that BB dropping back 40+ times a game is a good thing.


The Steelers have the QB and can get in a shoot out with the best of them.

Great point JPN.
This is why you want a 15 mil QB even on a more balanced attack.
Ben is the most important guy.
But balance make him (frankly any QB) better.

Crash
06-13-2012, 01:05 PM
The Steelers went 1-5 for 3 points in their opening drives in those games. I don't see how 3 punts, an INT, and one FG equates to the O pulling their weight. I'm not dismissing the Steelers D by any stretch. They looked aged and slow as the year went on. There is room for improvement on both side of the ball.

Absolutely. But for most of the people here. Because this defense can beat up on cream puffs all year they feel as if there is no problem with this defense.

Crash
06-13-2012, 01:06 PM
Great point JPN.
This is why you want a 15 mil QB even on a more balanced attack.
Ben is the most important guy.
But balance make him (frankly any QB) better.

Yeah all that running made the offense look real good for 3 of the 4 games they played when Ben was out in 2010.

Or against the Ravens in 2009.

papillon
06-13-2012, 01:09 PM
Well that would be a good thing. In the 5 losses last year including the playoffs...BB averaged 42 drop backs and completed 55% of his passes with a 65% rating. In his 11 wins...BB had 32 drop backs and completed 67% of his passes with a 103% rating. 40% of the season sacks came in those 5 losses and he was sacked every 13 dropbacks on the season. Including the playoff game, BA averaged 37 passing plays per game and 27 rushing plays per game. That's a +10 on passing plays. Simply by the numbers, there isn't any evidence that BB dropping back 40+ times a game is a good thing.

On thing many people are forgetting is what impact pass pro has on the OL from a conditioning standpoint. Your pounding in the trenches is what wins your the battle of attrition. Dropping back 40+ times a game helps the defense win the battle of attrition while you self inflict. Then when the time comes where you "need to" impose your will in the run game...You already wore yourself down. When I played, I would have rather run the ball every play where the yard to go was under 7 on 2nd & 3rd and smack them in the mouth on 1st down to the point where they had to sell out against the run. Then keep them guessing against the PA when they did. You could feel their bodies wearing down as your fired out and took the wind out of them as the game wore on. It got easier and easier as the game went on and when you needed to pass there was no gas left in the tank to rush the QB and when you needed to run the push came from the OL. That part of football will NEVER change even in this QB league.

The Steelers have the QB and can get in a shoot out with the best of them. Come post season, there isn't a next week if the coaches across the field dialed it up. The sure equalizer in football is an effective run game. That is a whole story in itself. But getting positive plays on the ground on 1st down thickens the DC playbook on 2nd. Having shown you can run the ball keeps that playbook thick on 3rd & medium. Equally important is the fact that the seconds are ticking away means your D is resting and making adjustments between series. Just being able to improve the effectiveness and dial it up if & when you have to will seperate the Steelers from the pack. That will put them in a small group of teams where, if needed, they could use it to take away from the other teams strength. This passing offense will benefit and I don't anticipate a drop off. If the D picks up the TO & sacks now that Woodley & Harrison are healthy...The play count & opportunities will be there.

My comment was made with dripping sarcasm. I'm fully aware of the fact that the more Ben or any quarterback probably drops back the more likely a bad outcome becomes, because the chances are that you're playing from behind and the defense is in "get after the quarterback" mode.

Pappy

Crash
06-13-2012, 01:12 PM
My comment was made with dripping sarcasm. I'm fully aware of the fact that the more Ben or any quarterback probably drops back the more likely a bad outcome becomes, because the chances are that you're playing from behind and the defense is in "get after the quarterback" mode.

Pappy

You may understand that. Most here don't.

They'd rather run the ball. quit, and lose a game without even trying to win all for the sake of "balance".

Captain Lemming
06-13-2012, 01:26 PM
Just because the offense bails LeBeau out that doesn't let him off the hook when his prevent defense bites him in the ass.

OK, so in order to make your point you include wins. I'll address that below:


the defense blew a 4th quarter lead in Jacksonville in 2004, Ben played.

The defense blew the lead against the RAIDERS in 2004, Ben didn't play.

READ!

I stand corrected on your comment.
Understanding clearly now, you define a "blown lead" as allowing a single field goal in the 4th quarter, in a game we won anyway by scoring but a single field goal in the 4th.

Give me a DC who gives us THREE MEASLY POINTS in the fourth, in a victory all day long.

But clearly winning is not your priority.

Crash
06-13-2012, 01:31 PM
OK, so in order to make your point you include wins. I'll address that below:



I stand corrected on your comment.
Understanding clearly now, you define a "blown lead" as allowing a single field goal in the 4th quarter, in a game we won anyway by scoring but a single field goal in the 4th.

Give me a DC who gives us THREE MEASLY POINTS in the fourth, in a victory all day long.

But clearly winning is not your priority.

Winning IS my #1 priority.

You on the other hand want running the football and protecting Dick LeBeau's reputation.

Sorry, but when a defense allows an 80 yard TD drive to something called Curtis Painter up 7 points in the 4th quarter, and then the offense goes on the field and kicks a GW field goal? That doesn't excuse LeBeau's 4th quarter scheme or lets him off the hook.

Case in point, that 2004 Jags game:

The Steelers have a 14-7 lead to start the second half:

Fist play from scrimmage? Ben 17 yards to El, sets up for 1st and 10 at the 49, perfect chance to get points, what do we do?

Run run pass punt.

The defense comes on the field and gives up a FG, it's 14-10 Steelers.

Next series, the Steelers start 1st and 20.

Run run pass punt.

The defense comes back on the field, and gives up another FG, and it's 14-13 Steelers.

So instead of coming out in the THIRD QUARTER, and trying to get points? We are already in "turtle mode", and what did it get them? NOTHING!

The whole freaking half they did what you wanted, and they lost the lead.

THEN, the offense bails them out needing a FG to win on one last possession.

Sugar
06-13-2012, 01:57 PM
My comment was made with dripping sarcasm. I'm fully aware of the fact that the more Ben or any quarterback probably drops back the more likely a bad outcome becomes, because the chances are that you're playing from behind and the defense is in "get after the quarterback" mode.

Pappy

Wouldn't the likelyhood of a better outcome increase if Ben weren't working behind a patchwork, musical-chairs, injury-riddled OL? What if the O is designed around those drop backs and it's not happening because of being behind?

Slapstick
06-13-2012, 02:08 PM
Winning IS my #1 priority.

You on the other hand want running the football and protecting Dick LeBeau's reputation.

Sorry, but when a defense allows an 80 yard TD drive to something called Curtis Painter up 7 points in the 4th quarter, and then the offense goes on the field and kicks a GW field goal? That doesn't excuse LeBeau's 4th quarter scheme or lets him off the hook.

Case in point, that 2004 Jags game:

The Steelers have a 14-7 lead to start the second half:

Fist play from scrimmage? Ben 17 yards to El, sets up for 1st and 10 at the 49, perfect chance to get points, what do we do?

Run run pass punt.

The defense comes on the field and gives up a FG, it's 14-10 Steelers.

Next series, the Steelers start 1st and 20.

Run run pass punt.

The defense comes back on the field, and gives up another FG, and it's 14-13 Steelers.

So instead of coming out in the THIRD QUARTER, and trying to get points? We are already in "turtle mode", and what did it get them? NOTHING!

The whole freaking half they did what you wanted, and they lost the lead.

THEN, the offense bails them out needing a FG to win on one last possession.

Run run pass punt does not indicate a commitment to the run. It indicates a commitment to unimaginative and predictable play calling.

Crash
06-13-2012, 02:11 PM
Run run pass punt does not indicate a commitment to the run. It indicates a commitment to unimaginative and predictable play calling.

Guess what Slap? WHIZ was the OC in that game, not Arians.

But all I hear from brain dead sheep is how the defense didn't blow leads when we played "Cowher Ball".

Slapstick
06-13-2012, 02:16 PM
Guess what Slap? WHIZ was the OC in that game, not Arians.

But all I hear from brain dead sheep is how the defense didn't blow leads when we played "Cowher Ball".

So, you deny that it is unimaginative play calling?

JUST-PLAIN-NASTY
06-13-2012, 02:33 PM
My comment was made with dripping sarcasm. I'm fully aware of the fact that the more Ben or any quarterback probably drops back the more likely a bad outcome becomes, because the chances are that you're playing from behind and the defense is in "get after the quarterback" mode.

Pappy

I know it was Pap. It was generalized to this topic. 17 pages in I just piggy backed your sarcasm to throw some things into the fire. Seemed like it was going out. :p

Crash
06-13-2012, 02:35 PM
So, you deny that it is unimaginative play calling?

Absolutely, but unfortunately that's what Art II wants. Run like Franco did.

Slapstick
06-13-2012, 02:41 PM
Absolutely, but unfortunately that's what Art II wants. Run like Franco did.

No, Art doesn't want unimaginative playcalling...

He could still have Arians for that...

hawaiiansteel
06-13-2012, 03:43 PM
what does Redman's last quote tell you, all you need to know in my opinion. other teams knew what was coming half of the time because Arians' running plays and designs were so predictable.


Isaac Redman Talks about the Advantages of Pittsburgh’s New Offense, his Grasp on the System and his Chance to Start at RB

June 8, 2012 – by Brad Gagnon

On if being forced to learn an offense forces everyone to concentrate harder:

“It does. It’s gonna take everybody to go home, watch film, go home and stay in the play book. As far as — last year a lot of guys probably just took it for granted, ‘I know this, I know that,’ and maybe not as crisp as we could’ve been, especially in the red zone last year. So now every single one of us is gonna have to be in our playbook knowing exactly what we need to do and exactly where we need to be.

And also, you gotta look at it, the other teams that we play, especially in our conference, they were used to us running the same plays and kinda had our playbook down and kinda knew what we were running.

Now, they got a whole new offense that they have to prepare for.”

http://sportsradiointerviews.com/201...o-start-at-rb/ (http://sportsradiointerviews.com/2012/06/08/ike-redman-talks-about-the-advantages-of-pittsburghs-new-offense-his-grasp-on-the-system-and-his-chance-to-start-at-rb/)

RuthlessBurgher
06-14-2012, 10:21 AM
You may understand that. Most here don't.

They'd rather run the ball. quit, and lose a game without even trying to win all for the sake of "balance".

"Most here" would rather run the ball. quit, and lose a game without even trying to win all for the sake of "balance," eh?

Okay, name one Steeler fan...ONE SINGLE PERSON...who would prefer that. You can't. No one on this board would. No one in Heinz Field on Steeler Sundays. No one watching at home or at a sport bar. This mythical yinzer who prefers running the ball to winning exists only in your own mind.

DukieBoy
06-14-2012, 10:42 AM
Guess what Slap? WHIZ was the OC in that game, not Arians.

But all I hear from brain dead sheep is how the defense didn't blow leads when we played "Cowher Ball".

A bit contemptuous here, Crash? Feeling like you are losing your argument?

Crash
06-14-2012, 11:15 AM
"Most here" would rather run the ball. quit, and lose a game without even trying to win all for the sake of "balance," eh?

Okay, name one Steeler fan...ONE SINGLE PERSON...who would prefer that. You can't. No one on this board would. No one in Heinz Field on Steeler Sundays. No one watching at home or at a sport bar. This mythical yinzer who prefers running the ball to winning exists only in your own mind.

When the Steelers lose a game, regardless of how it happened. The first thing you will hear out of fans and media is "why didn't they run more?"

Without realizing, that when you are down big, that you don't have time to run the friggin' ball.

Crash
06-14-2012, 11:46 AM
A bit contemptuous here, Crash? Feeling like you are losing your argument?

Not at all. Cap said we didn't blow 4th quarter leads when we played Cowher Ball.

He's wrong.

feltdizz
06-14-2012, 12:50 PM
When the Steelers lose a game, regardless of how it happened. The first thing you will hear out of fans and media is "why didn't they run more?"

Without realizing, that when you are down big, that you don't have time to run the friggin' ball.

when are we ever down "big?" It's very rare and for you to use that scenario shows how bad you are losing this argument.

The problem with Arians though was anytime we were down 7 or less it was 30 yard pass plays.

Crash
06-14-2012, 01:00 PM
when are we ever down "big?" It's very rare and for you to use that scenario shows how bad you are losing this argument

See the Denver playoff game? They were down 20-6 at half.

First thing out of Bob Pompiani's yap after the game: "Why didn't they run more?"

Yeah Bob, down 20-6 with 30 minutes to go and later down 23-13 in the second half (after another give back score, imagine that). Let's run the ball.

Yinzers know three things: Blame Ben, run the ball, and the defense is untouchable.

steelz09
06-14-2012, 01:09 PM
When the Steelers lose a game, regardless of how it happened. The first thing you will hear out of fans and media is "why didn't they run more?"

Without realizing, that when you are down big, that you don't have time to run the friggin' ball.

That's not even remotely true... I remember losing to the Raiders a few years back when they scored a bunch of points and the defense was absolutely terrible that game. No one was blaming the offense on that loss. Trying to make a blanketed statement that every loss results in fans saying "We should run more" is just plain false.

Slapstick
06-14-2012, 01:53 PM
See the Denver playoff game? They were down 20-6 at half.

First thing out of Bob Pompiani's yap after the game: "Why didn't they run more?"

Yeah Bob, down 20-6 with 30 minutes to go and later down 23-13 in the second half (after another give back score, imagine that). Let's run the ball.

Yinzers know three things: Blame Ben, run the ball, and the defense is untouchable.

Pompiani saw the same thing that I did...

In the 2nd quarter, when the Steelers were down 7-6 (after a drive stalled at the Denver 29 and another at the Denver 20 - 2 FGs):

1st Steelers possession: incomplete pass - incomplete pass (because of a challenge) - incomplete pass - punt (0:15 elapsed)

2nd Steelers possession: run - sack - INT (returned to Pittsburgh 18) - (1:22 elapsed)

3rd Steelers possession: DEN penalty - run - DEN penalty (1st down) - Incomplete Pass - Run - Pass (7 yards on 3rd and 10) - Punt (2:09 elapsed)

THEN, on the Steelers' next possession, they were down 20-6...

The time to run was not necessarily when they were down, though Redman's running in the second half helped out tremendously in tying the game...the better time to run is when the game is close...

We've established that the defense was horrendous in the 2Q...

But, as you can see, the offense in the 2Q was equally piss-poor...

Crash
06-14-2012, 03:58 PM
I agree. Run 50 times a game.

Slapstick
06-14-2012, 04:28 PM
I agree. Run 50 times a game.

You agree with whom?

Crash
06-14-2012, 04:30 PM
You agree with whom?

People that want 50% total runs. I'm all for it.

Run the ball!

Slapstick
06-14-2012, 04:32 PM
If the Steelers run 50% of the time and that = running 50 times, then the Steelers will have 100 offensive plays per game...

I'd be cool with that...

And with 50 passing attempts per game, Ben would have around 800 pass attempts...more than enough for a $15 mil QB....

hawaiiansteel
06-14-2012, 05:43 PM
People that want 50% total runs. I'm all for it.

Run the ball!


I'm all for running 50% of the time on first downs and on first downs in the red zone.

imagine how much more effective we will be when the defense isn't yelling "they're coming this way"...