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fordfixer
06-06-2012, 02:18 AM
Steelers’ Pope boasts red-zone pedigree

http://triblive.com/sports/steelers/1918630-85/pope-steelers-tight-red-zone-haley-miller-offense-coach-block

By Mark Kaboly
Tribune-Review

Published: Tuesday, June 5, 2012, 7:54 p.m.
Updated 2 hours ago

Leonard Pope can block — that’s evident by his 6-foot-8, 264-pound frame. His 24 receptions with the Kansas City Chiefs last year and five touchdowns with Arizona a couple of years before that indicates he also can catch the ball.

So the only question when the Steelers plucked Pope off the unrestricted free-agent market in April to fill a need as their second tight end was how he would perform in high-pressure situations that come with playing for a Super Bowl-contending team.

Actually, Pope answered that concern just about a year ago with much higher stakes than an outcome of a football game.

Pope raced out of the Troy Hill Apartments in his hometown of Americus, Ga., after hearing screaming coming from Anne Moore that her 6-year-old son, Bryson, was drowning. Without hesitation, a fully dressed Pope jumped in the water and rescued the boy from the bottom of the pool.

“I guess you can check off the ‘Performing-Under-Pressure’ box for him with that one,” tight end Heath Miller said.

Now, the Steelers are hoping they can check off the “Red-Zone Woes” box for their offense.

Despite being the fourth-ranked offense in the AFC and 12th overall, it didn’t transition into points. The Steelers were 21st in total points, averaging 20.3 per game, and a lot of that was because their offense stalled in the red zone. The Steelers scored touchdowns only 50 percent of the time they got inside the 20-yard line, which was 17th in the league.

Pope is expected to alleviate that problem this year.

“I don’t know, man. I’m just out here doing whatever Coach asks me to do; whatever I can do to help the team,” Pope said.

The red zone would be a start.

Out of Pope’s nine career touchdowns, seven have come inside the red zone — including four his first year with Todd Haley as the Cardinals offensive coordinator in 2007. Pope also has a penchant for moving the chains. Nearly half of his 102 career catches have been for first downs.

“I try to tell people, ‘Please don’t sleep on me. When you sleep on me, that’s when I get you,’ ” Pope said. “You think I’m going to block all day, then I’ll run a route past you. You think I’m going to catch all day, I’ll block.”

Haley is well-versed in what Pope can do. It’s not by coincidence that the first, and only, free-agent signing the Steelers made during the offseason was Pope.

Pope played two years in Arizona under Haley, and when Haley became head coach in Kansas City in 2009, he brought Pope with him.

“I love Todd,” Pope said. “I know a lot of people see the negative picture of him yelling on the sidelines and all that kind of stuff, but he’s a real humble person and has a great passion for what he does.”

Pope will back up Miller, but he will see plenty of time in two-tight end sets and will be inserted into the red-zone offense.

“He is a good player, a solid player who has been playing a long time,” Miller said. “He has been around Coach Haley for a long time, and that’s a big plus to be able to bounce some things off him.”

After Pope and Miller, the tight end position is lean with youngsters Weslye Saunders, Jamie McCoy and Wes Lyons. Saunders will serve a four-game suspension at the start of the season for violating the NFL’s performance-enhancing drug policy.

“This is a guy that is a veteran football player, that is extremely hungry and wants to be the reason why we win,” Steelers coach Mike Tomlin said about Pope. “All of those things are attractive. Obviously he has a history with Todd, which is an added bonus.”

hawaiiansteel
06-06-2012, 02:38 AM
Pope brings familiarity with offense to Steelers

UPDATED JUN 5, 2012


PITTSBURGH (AP)
Leonard Pope smiled, shook his head and rolled his eyes incredulously. Then he politely answered the question.

Pope was the only unrestricted free agent the Steelers signed in the offseason, and questions for the 6-foot-8 tight end keep coming back again and again to one subject.

Not the 102 receptions or nine touchdowns he has totaled in his six-year NFL career, and not his appearance in the 2009 Super Bowl. Not even his nickname, ''Champ'' - or the fact he saved a 6-year-old boy from drowning in a swimming pool last summer.

All anyone wants to talk to Pope about is his familiarity with Todd Haley's offense. Haley was hired in February as the Steelers first new offensive coordinator in five years. No surprise, Pope arrived in Pittsburgh weeks later.

Wherever Haley has been the past six years - from Arizona to Kansas City and now Pittsburgh - he's taken Pope with him.

With the Steelers feverishly studying to master the new offense, Pope is a man everybody wants to speak with about it.

''Every day - all day, every day,'' Pope said with a chuckle. ''And I give the same answer: I'm here learning the new playbook just like the rest of the players are. So my story ain't gonna change.''

A story Pope is much more eager to tell is how he potentially saved the life of the young child of a friend at a party in his hometown of Americus, Ga., last June.

The only person at the party who knew how to swim, a fully-clothed Pope jumped into the pool, grabbed the boy, Bryson Moore, by the waist and pulled him out of the water to safety.

''It was an act born out of the fact of me being a father and having kids,'' said Pope, who recently threw a pizza party for the boy's class. ''Like I told people, I would want someone doing the same for my child.''

That story has made its way among his new teammates.

''I guess you can check the `Performs Under Pressure' box for that,'' fellow tight end Heath Miller said.

Providing depth to Pittsburgh's tight end corps isn't a life-or-death issue. But with David Johnson having been moved to fullback and Weslye Saunders suspended for the season's first four games due to a violation of the NFL's performance-enhancing drugs policy, the 272-pound Pope will likely see plenty of reps this season for the Steelers.

''He's a big boy,'' tackle Marcus Gilbert said. ''He's aggressive, he's bright-eyed, he just loves to come in and stick his hand in the pile and try to help us win.''

A third-round pick by the Cardinals in 2006, Pope clearly has the size to help in the blocking game - a trait the Steelers have sought in their tight ends in recent years.

He also has shown an ability to be a weapon in the passing game, evidenced by the five touchdown receptions he had during his second year with Arizona or the career-high 24 catches he had last season with Kansas City.

''I try to tell people, `Please don't sleep on me. When you sleep on me, that's when I get you,''' Pope said. ''You think I'm going to block all day, then I'll run a route past you. You think I'm going to catch all day, I'll block.''

Pope said his grandfathers and father used to argue about who deserves credit for bestowing the nickname ''Champ,'' given to him as an overly active and rambunctious boy.

Pope even dubbed his foundation aimed at disadvantaged families that emphasizes physical fitness, C.H.A.M.P. (Creating Hope And Making Progress).

But one thing Pope is not yet is a Super Bowl champ. He was with the Cardinals when they lost to Pittsburgh in the 2009 Super Bowl.

''I want to be on the other side to not have that feeling again,'' Pope said.

Pittsburgh coach Mike Tomlin cited the hunger Pope has after being ''on the wrong side of the confetti'' that February night in Tampa three years ago. Tomlin mentioned that when asked about Pope before he mentioned the player's history with Haley.

That's the way Pope would prefer it. Contrary to conventional opinion, Pope did not sign with the Steelers just because of Haley.

''I came here because I had a job opportunity,'' he said.

Haley was the offensive coordinator in Arizona for Pope's final two years there, including the NFC championship season. When Haley was hired as head coach of the Chiefs, Pope was signed soon thereafter.

Haley was fired by Kansas City late last season, and the Steelers hired him to replace Bruce Arians less than three months later. Pope was signed in April.

Haley's fiery sideline demeanor, combined with the fact the affable Arians had a warm relationship with most of his players, have led to much discussion in Pittsburgh about Haley and the offense.

Pope might not be willing to speak too much on Haley's Xs and Os, but he will endorse Haley the person.

''I love Todd,'' Pope said. ''He's a great coach, and hopefully the guys are starting to see that right now.

''I know a lot of people see the negative picture of him yelling on the sidelines and all that kind of stuff, but he's a real humble person and has a great passion for what he does.''

http://network.yardbarker.com/nfl/ar...elers/10947620 (http://network.yardbarker.com/nfl/article_external/pope_brings_familiarity_with_offense_to_steelers/10947620)

Keyplay1
06-06-2012, 06:45 AM
Quite a few positives this off season. This sounds like another one.

Slapstick
06-06-2012, 07:55 AM
Every football team, every offense, requires role players...guys who are competitive and simply come in and contribute when their number is called...

Whether that's blocking, catching a TD, etc...

He won't be a huge contributor (career high 24 catches last year) but he will contribute...

Oviedo
06-06-2012, 08:00 AM
Arians came on board promising to use the TE more and he was a failure in making that happen. I really hope that Haely uses the TE much more as the weapon that position can be.

I think Pope was a great add much like Cotchery last year. Then again, anyone who keeps David Johnson off the field is the second coming to me.

grotonsteel
06-06-2012, 11:23 AM
L Pope is another drive killer. He was flagged 10 times in 2011 and tied KC with max number of penalties.

I hope Pope is keeping the seat warm for Wesley Saunders.

DJ > Pope and DJ sucks to begin with.

Oviedo
06-06-2012, 12:11 PM
L Pope is another drive killer. He was flagged 10 times in 2011 and tied KC with max number of penalties.

I hope Pope is keeping the seat warm for Wesley Saunders.

DJ > Pope and DJ sucks to begin with.

Sorry but DJ < you and me. Well maybe not but he can't catch and he can't block. He has no value in this offense. Putting him at FB is a disaster waiting to happen.

steelblood
06-06-2012, 12:28 PM
i hope pope doesn't make the team.

i'd be happy with miller, paulson, saunders

Crash
06-06-2012, 12:45 PM
Three wide base. If Wallace shows up and they don't use 3 wide on the majority of 1st downs the offense won't work.

It'll be the same problems as before.

RuthlessBurgher
06-06-2012, 01:40 PM
Three wide base. If Wallace shows up and they don't use 3 wide on the majority of 1st downs the offense won't work.

It'll be the same problems as before.

That would be my preferred base offense as well. Double TE should be a rarely used specialty package for us (unless Wes Saunders shows that he can be a weapon when he returns from suspension).

grotonsteel
06-06-2012, 05:25 PM
That would be my preferred base offense as well. Double TE should be a rarely used specialty package for us (unless Wes Saunders shows that he can be a weapon when he returns from suspension).

+1

With threat of a pass it also helps the running game.

Steelerphile
06-06-2012, 06:39 PM
Sorry but DJ < you and me. Well maybe not but he can't catch and he can't block. He has no value in this offense. Putting him at FB is a disaster waiting to happen.

DJ would squash you and Crash at the same time, blindfolded, handcuffed and under the influence of adderall

Crash
06-06-2012, 07:03 PM
DJ would squash you and Crash at the same time, blindfolded, handcuffed and under the influence of adderall

That's terrific, but you know what?

He'd do all that? And he'd still be the same waste of a roster spot that he is now.

Steelerphile
06-07-2012, 05:15 AM
That's terrific, but you know what?

He'd do all that? And he'd still be the same waste of a roster spot that he is now.

You're a blight to a message board.

Oviedo
06-07-2012, 08:14 AM
DJ would squash you and Crash at the same time, blindfolded, handcuffed and under the influence of adderall

I have no doubt he would squash non-NFL "Civilians." The problem is that he can't do it consistently to real NFL players. Never has been able to. What is going to change now?

Shawn
06-07-2012, 09:28 AM
I'm reading some good things about Pope. I trust Haley's opinion on the guy. If he is signing him up everywhere he goes, he must have some talent. The guy has deceptive speed, clocked at 4.62 coming out of college. And at 6 foot 8 that is ridiculous. He is known for being a terrific blocker. I don't see the down side of the signing personally.

feltdizz
06-07-2012, 09:43 AM
I'm reading some good things about Pope. I trust Haley's opinion on the guy. If he is signing him up everywhere he goes, he must have some talent. The guy has deceptive speed, clocked at 4.62 coming out of college. And at 6 foot 8 that is ridiculous. He is known for being a terrific blocker. I don't see the down side of the signing personally.

yep! I think this could do wonders for the running and passing game in the redzone. Our blocking by the TE's has always been a little suspect IMO.

hawaiiansteel
06-08-2012, 12:35 AM
Pope likes what he sees with Steelers

Teresa Varley - Steelers.com
June 7, 2012

When Leonard Pope made his free agent visit to the Steelers this past offseason, one of the first things he noticed was the six Super Bowl trophies lined up in the team’s library.

“I looked at all six,” said Pope. “That is the first thing I saw when I went upstairs. That is something I personally want to be a part of and go down in history with these guys.”

Pope was so close to being a part of a Super Bowl winning team when he played for the Arizona Cardinals, but came up short when the Steelers defeated the Cardinals 27-23 in Super Bowl XLIII. Pope remembers what the feeling was like watching Steelers players celebrate, seeing the trophy handed to them and then watching the confetti flying down.

When he first met with Coach Mike Tomlin and general manager Kevin Colbert, he told them flat out he wanted to be “on the other side of the confetti.” He wanted to win a Super Bowl, and felt signing with the Steelers was his best option to do that.

“When you are playing the Steelers that is one team I always knew we had to buckle up our chin straps,” said Pope. “We knew they were going to bring it. This is a special group of people. Coach Tomlin, you listen to him, the way he speaks, he is well respected.

“I know the feeling to lose the Super Bowl. We have the right type of people and the coaching staff and organization here that winning it can be done again. Everything I thought the Pittsburgh Steelers would be and everything I thought I would be surrounding myself around, this is it. I clearly see why the Steelers are so successful and have been the last couple of years.”

http://www.steelers.com/news/article...a-0e21d6ef5f04 (http://www.steelers.com/news/article-1/Pope-likes-what-he-sees-with-Steelers/6464fd70-60a5-418c-892a-0e21d6ef5f04)

jj28west
06-08-2012, 05:38 AM
I remember his catch over Foote in the SB. What about a bubble WR screen with Pope, Lyons & Saunders? Long live BA! :)

Jooser
06-08-2012, 07:28 AM
You're a blight to a message board.

Understated I think. I was thinking more along the lines of a plague. Yo, the owners of the Baltimore Sun Forum called, they want their pet Crash back.

Crash
06-08-2012, 11:41 AM
Leonard Pope had no catches in SB XLIII.

phillyesq
06-08-2012, 11:48 AM
yep! I think this could do wonders for the running and passing game in the redzone. Our blocking by the TE's has always been a little suspect IMO.

I don't expect Pope to suddently transform the Steelers TEs into Gronk/Hernandez, but I think he can be a nice complimentary piece. His size should be an asset in the red zone.

grotonsteel
06-08-2012, 01:20 PM
I don't expect Pope to suddently transform the Steelers TEs into Gronk/Hernandez, but I think he can be a nice complimentary piece. His size should be an asset in the red zone.

I hope i don't see him even in Red Zone. As is Steelers offense struggle in Red Zone and on top of that we don't want holding penalties in RZ.

I am sure one holding penalty on Pope and Steelers fans will be up in arms. Right now its honeymoon period with the template "He was not used properly in AZ, KC"

Crash
06-08-2012, 01:21 PM
I agree. For every RZ play Pope is in for? That means one of the YMC isn't.

phillyesq
06-08-2012, 01:30 PM
I agree. For every RZ play Pope is in for? That means one of the YMC isn't.

Depends where in the red zone you are talking about. If the Steelers are on the 20? Yes, three wides and Heath is fine. Inside the three? Line up the big bodies and consider play action.

squidkid
06-08-2012, 04:25 PM
pleeaase. pope sucks. 24 catches? 9 career td's? this is our redzone threat? pathetic

grotonsteel
06-08-2012, 05:26 PM
pleeaase. pope sucks. 24 catches? 9 career td's? this is our redzone threat? pathetic

He was not properly used in AZ and KC....:-D

Add to that 10 penalities last season. 6 of them were drive killers. I think he leads the NFL in penalties for TEs.

Crash
06-08-2012, 05:45 PM
What's hilarious is everyone was happy when Yinzer Savior Haley switched DJ to fullback.

Then he comes out and says DJ may still see time at TE.

So what's changed? Nothing.

But no one says a word because we have a local guy running the offense.

hawaiiansteel
06-08-2012, 05:48 PM
What's hilarious is everyone was happy when Yinzer Savior Haley switched DJ to fullback.

Then he comes out and says DJ may still see time at TE.

So what's changed? Nothing.

But no one says a word because we have a local guy running the offense.


I don't think too many Steelers fans are happy about DJ playing anywhere, most would be glad to see him cut.

phillyesq
06-08-2012, 06:24 PM
What's hilarious is everyone was happy when Yinzer Savior Haley switched DJ to fullback.

Then he comes out and says DJ may still see time at TE.

So what's changed? Nothing.

But no one says a word because we have a local guy running the offense.

There is a strawman argument if I've ever seen one. I don't think anybody really wanted to see DJ anywhere. I think the thought was if the Steelers were going to use a fullback to actually find a natural fullback.

phillyesq
06-08-2012, 06:25 PM
He was not properly used in AZ and KC....:-D

Add to that 10 penalities last season. 6 of them were drive killers. I think he leads the NFL in penalties for TEs.

Yeah, the penalties are certainly worrisome, but he is at least an upgrade over Spaeth or DJ. The Steelers could do better at the second TE position, but they've done worse in the past.

jj28west
06-09-2012, 06:55 AM
Leonard Pope had no catches in SB XLIII.

Ben Patrick. Dont know why I remembered Pope.

squidkid
06-09-2012, 10:50 AM
What's hilarious is everyone was happy when Yinzer Savior Haley switched DJ to fullback.

Then he comes out and says DJ may still see time at TE.

So what's changed? Nothing.

But no one says a word because we have a local guy running the offense.

can you dig up a few posts where we stated how happy we all were?

Crash
06-09-2012, 11:05 AM
Not just here. All over cyberspace people were thrilled that a "FB" was returning to the offense.

As if that's the friggin' problem on offense.....LOL

squidkid
06-09-2012, 11:10 AM
Not just here. All over cyberspace people were thrilled that a "FB" was returning to the offense.

As if that's the friggin' problem on offense.....LOL

there's a difference from wanting a fb in this offense to you saying that everyone was happy that DJ is going to be the fb

hawaiiansteel
06-10-2012, 03:28 AM
Pope Might Be Ben Roethlisberger’s Savior

June 9, 2012 by Craig

http://nicepickcowher.com/files/2012/06/4995622.jpg?e98d57

In 2012, Ben Roethlisberger might be getting on his knees every Sunday and thanking the Dear Lord for the Steelers’ acquisition of his newest tight end – Leonard Pope. This will be especially prevalent when the Steelers get in the Red Zone on game day. A very tall and agile Pope will help Ben…. ummm…. widen…. his accuracy.

“It gives you a wide area to miss and to throw a bad ball. And Heath can go up and catch balls with two fingers and it’s not like you have to put it right on their chest. They can have a wide catching radius. (Pope’s) is even bigger than Heath’s.” - Ben Roethlisberger

Woah, settle down there, Ben. Let’s not get too far ahead of ourselves. You better not be thinking of skipping out on those accuracy drills. Your new coordinator might not like that too much. But, Big Ben does have a point.

With the addition of Pope, Ben’s options in the Red Zone (aka short yardage and end zone crossing routes) grow about as big as the 6′-8″ Leonard Pope. Pope, when on the field, will be the tallest Steeler receiver out there, and will have what will seem like feet over your average corner or safety daring enough to man up on Pope. With Miller out there already, those safeties are going to be busy keeping track of those two men. Add in Antonio Brown and Manny Sanders on the wings and even Redman (or perhaps Baron Batch) out in the flat, and you will have your hands full as a defense inside your own 20 yard line. Were Bruce Arians the OC, most teams would give a second thought to this type of formation. But, with Todd Haley at the helm (a man who is known to make proper use of his TE’s and RB’s as receivers) this type of formation spells danger for defenses and giddy joy for Steeler Nation.

I’ve always like Pope at the TE position and am excited to see how he fits into this new offense. I’m also very partial to Heath Miller… ok… I love Heath. Such a great guy and a hugely underrated player in the NFL. What I hope we don’t witness is Haley playing favorites to Pope. The final decision, of course, is Ben’s and the two TE’s after the ball is snapped. Ben will fire the ball to whomever is open, or who is in good position to go after the ball after he lobs an end zone corner toss. It will be up to those three players to find the right chemistry inside the 20.

Seriously folks – this offense will seem crazy good with all the potential points that will be on the table. Let’s just hope they capitalize this season on each of those opportunities.

http://nicepickcowher.com/2012/06/09/pope-might-be-ben-roethlisbergers-savior/

squidkid
06-10-2012, 09:44 AM
Pope Might Be Ben Roethlisberger’s Savior

June 9, 2012 by Craig

http://nicepickcowher.com/files/2012/06/4995622.jpg?e98d57

In 2012, Ben Roethlisberger might be getting on his knees every Sunday and thanking the Dear Lord for the Steelers’ acquisition of his newest tight end – Leonard Pope. This will be especially prevalent when the Steelers get in the Red Zone on game day. A very tall and agile Pope will help Ben…. ummm…. widen…. his accuracy.

“It gives you a wide area to miss and to throw a bad ball. And Heath can go up and catch balls with two fingers and it’s not like you have to put it right on their chest. They can have a wide catching radius. (Pope’s) is even bigger than Heath’s.” - Ben Roethlisberger

Woah, settle down there, Ben. Let’s not get too far ahead of ourselves. You better not be thinking of skipping out on those accuracy drills. Your new coordinator might not like that too much. But, Big Ben does have a point.

With the addition of Pope, Ben’s options in the Red Zone (aka short yardage and end zone crossing routes) grow about as big as the 6′-8″ Leonard Pope. Pope, when on the field, will be the tallest Steeler receiver out there, and will have what will seem like feet over your average corner or safety daring enough to man up on Pope. With Miller out there already, those safeties are going to be busy keeping track of those two men. Add in Antonio Brown and Manny Sanders on the wings and even Redman (or perhaps Baron Batch) out in the flat, and you will have your hands full as a defense inside your own 20 yard line. Were Bruce Arians the OC, most teams would give a second thought to this type of formation. But, with Todd Haley at the helm (a man who is known to make proper use of his TE’s and RB’s as receivers) this type of formation spells danger for defenses and giddy joy for Steeler Nation.

I’ve always like Pope at the TE position and am excited to see how he fits into this new offense. I’m also very partial to Heath Miller… ok… I love Heath. Such a great guy and a hugely underrated player in the NFL. What I hope we don’t witness is Haley playing favorites to Pope. The final decision, of course, is Ben’s and the two TE’s after the ball is snapped. Ben will fire the ball to whomever is open, or who is in good position to go after the ball after he lobs an end zone corner toss. It will be up to those three players to find the right chemistry inside the 20.

Seriously folks – this offense will seem crazy good with all the potential points that will be on the table. Let’s just hope they capitalize this season on each of those opportunities.

http://nicepickcowher.com/2012/06/09/pope-might-be-ben-roethlisbergers-savior/



did i mention that pope sucks?

hawaiiansteel
06-11-2012, 01:48 AM
Mark Kaboly ‏@MarkKaboly_Trib via twitter:

Did you know (and I am sure you did) that Steelers tight end Leonard Pope saved a 6-year-old drowning boy last year?

https://twitter.com/#!/search/from:S...alphPaulk_Trib (https://twitter.com/#!/search/from:ScottBrown_Trib OR from:MarkKaboly_Trib OR from:RalphPaulk_Trib?q=from%3AScottBrown_Trib+OR+f rom%3AMarkKaboly_Trib+OR+from%3ARalphPaulk_Trib)

Slapstick
06-11-2012, 07:50 AM
did i mention that pope sucks?

That's okay...

I don't care if he's a 6' 8" decoy...the opposing D has to account for him...

RuthlessBurgher
06-11-2012, 09:52 AM
Pope Might Be Ben Roethlisberger’s Savior

In 2012, Ben Roethlisberger might be getting on his knees every Sunday and thanking the Dear Lord for the Steelers’ acquisition of his newest tight end – Leonard Pope.

Anyone else tiring of the cheezy religious references to Pope (I suppose it was worse when he was a Cardinal too)?

squidkid
06-11-2012, 03:44 PM
That's okay...

I don't care if he's a 6' 8" decoy...the opposing D has to account for him...

i dont think the 'decoy' gimmick is a valid one. he's been in the league long enough for the DCs to know that he sucks and that they dont need to put their best defensive players covering him because he is a threat to scorch them when they least expect it. hey, im all for getting a productive TE on this team. actually, we already have one that gets underutilized. i just cant get excited over a guy that has his career stats thinking that he is going to turn in to gronkowski and such.

Crash
06-11-2012, 04:08 PM
Yeah excellent. Let's use Pope as a decoy and leave one of the YMC off the field.

I've met some uneducated Steelers homers in my day, but Slap here takes the cake.

RuthlessBurgher
06-11-2012, 04:20 PM
Yeah excellent. Let's use Pope as a decoy and leave one of the YMC off the field.

I've met some uneducated Steelers homers in my day, but Slap here takes the cake.

The "Young Money Crew" (man, I hate that stupid nickname) was stellar between the 20's, but significantly less effective in the red zone (many of Wallace's scores are from long distances, and Brown only has a total 2 TD catches as a pro to his name). I think Pope could be useful in goal line sets, because he offers the ability to be able to block down if we want to try to run it in, or gives Ben a 6'8" target in the end zone if they want to try to pass it in.

As our base set, I want to see 3-wide 11 personnel just as much as you do, but I see value to someone like Pope in a limited role in specialty offensive sets.

Crash
06-11-2012, 04:23 PM
How much time did they even see in the redzone as a group between the two TE sets and the need to give Hines a role in the offense even after his overall role was reduced after week 4?

Slapstick
06-11-2012, 04:27 PM
Yeah excellent. Let's use Pope as a decoy and leave one of the YMC off the field.

I've met some uneducated Steelers homers in my day, but Slap here takes the cake.

Yep...

I'm so uneducated that you feel the obsessive need to respond to my every post...

:grin: :grin::grin:

Crash
06-11-2012, 04:32 PM
Yep...

I'm so uneducated that you feel the obsessive need to respond to my every post...

:grin: :grin::grin:

If uneducated homers need help Slap. I aim to please.

In fact I like that nickname, Pope will forever be known as "The Decoy" by me.

RuthlessBurgher
06-11-2012, 04:35 PM
If uneducated homers need help Slap. I aim to please.

In fact I like that nickname, Pope will forever be known as "The Decoy" by me.

In contrast to the crappy YMC nickname, why not go with OCD...Old Cheap Decoy (not Obsessive Compulsive Disorder).

Slapstick
06-11-2012, 04:35 PM
If uneducated homers need help Slap. I aim to please.


Try looking in the mirror first...

"Physician, heal thyself..."

Crash
06-11-2012, 04:39 PM
Try looking in the mirror first...

"Physician, heal thyself..."

You're the one who wants close to 50% run pass with a $15 mil a year QB behind center.

Slapstick
06-11-2012, 04:41 PM
You're the one who wants close to 50% run pass with a $15 mil a year QB behind center.

I want SB wins...

Close to 50% run/pass with a $15 mil a year QB will get us there...

56% pass with a $15 mil a year QB failed...

Crash
06-11-2012, 04:45 PM
I want SB wins...

Close to 50% run/pass with a $15 mil a year QB will get us there

Only if the offense dominates in the first half and protects the defense.

You try that and the offense can't do that? The defense in the 4th quarter will fold like a cheap suit.

The league is phasing out defense, and you want to run the ball 50%.

Sheer brilliance.

Slapstick
06-11-2012, 04:49 PM
Only if the offense dominates in the first half and protects the defense.

You try that and the offense can't do that? The defense in the 4th quarter will fold like a cheap suit.

The league is phasing out defense, and you want to run the ball 50%.

Sheer brilliance.

Passing 56% of the time led to 21st in scoring...and a not-so-hot red zone scoring %...

Scoring points on offense (and preventing them on defense) never goes out of style...

Crash
06-11-2012, 04:59 PM
Passing 56% of the time led to 21st in scoring

Um no, forcing 15 turnovers all year, and running the ball 58% on first down, and 65% on first down in the red zone, is what led to 21st in scoring.

You have to go 80 yards every drive? You lose chances to score points.

Slapstick
06-11-2012, 05:02 PM
You have to go 80 yards every drive? You lose chances to score points.

Except for last year's Steelers...

If they started every drive in the red zone, their scoring may have been worse...

phillyesq
06-11-2012, 05:42 PM
Um no, forcing 15 turnovers all year, and running the ball 58% on first down, and 65% on first down in the red zone, is what led to 21st in scoring.

You have to go 80 yards every drive? You lose chances to score points.


The Saints only had 16 turnovers yet had the highest scoring percentage in the league.

I know, you will now blame that on ARII. But the bottom line is that the offense that Arians implemented last year was a failure.

Crash
06-11-2012, 05:44 PM
The Saints only had 16 turnovers yet had the highest scoring percentage in the league

Their QB gets to throw the ball 600 times a year.

Ours is forced to hand off.

squidkid
06-11-2012, 09:03 PM
Their QB gets to throw the ball 600 times a year.

Ours is forced to hand off.

another lie.
ben averages 34 passes a game last year. if he would have taken a game off he would have finished with 545 attempts. that would have been 9th overall in the league

Crash
06-11-2012, 09:16 PM
another lie.
ben averages 34 passes a game last year. if he would have taken a game off he would have finished with 545 attempts. that would have been 9th overall in the league

If Ben throws the ball 600+ times a year suicide rates in Pittsburgh would double.

phillyesq
06-12-2012, 07:56 AM
If Ben throws the ball 600+ times a year suicide rates in Pittsburgh would double.

Do you have a breakdown of Ben's record by passing attempts? If I recall, the team's winning percentage and the number of passes thrown by Ben are inversely related.

Crash
06-12-2012, 11:10 AM
Do you have a breakdown of Ben's record by passing attempts? If I recall, the team's winning percentage and the number of passes thrown by Ben are inversely related.

Oh this argument again. :confused:

This is Ben's 9th season. In this season he will be paid $15 MILLION.

If you want a game manager to hand off all day. Ben needs to go.

Good day.

feltdizz
06-12-2012, 12:59 PM
Do you have a breakdown of Ben's record by passing attempts? If I recall, the team's winning percentage and the number of passes thrown by Ben are inversely related.


Oh this argument again. :confused:

This is Ben's 9th season. In this season he will be paid $15 MILLION.

If you want a game manager to hand off all day. Ben needs to go.

Good day.

yeah... who needs winning when passing stats are the primary goal.

Crash
06-12-2012, 01:17 PM
yeah... who needs winning when passing stats are the primary goal.

If you are going to hand off all day you don't invest $15 million in the QB position. You want to hand off all day? You invest in RBs, OLs, and you draft low round WRs and you pay a QB $3 mil a year to do it.

If you want the QB to have the Trent Dilfer 2000 role? Then you pay someone that fills that role accordingly.

Just like Woodley, he's paid huge money to be an OLB pass rusher. They want to switch to a 4-3? You don't move him to DE, you trade him while his value is high, and you invest in a true 4-3 DE.

The salary cap era is also about how much you pay people to fill the role you want from them.

Winning? All Tomlin's team has done is win. And yet that's not good enough for Art II. He wants to win they way they used to 40 years ago.

Captain Lemming
06-12-2012, 01:27 PM
yeah... who needs winning when passing stats are the primary goal. Here ya go. Steelers best record with Ben as QB 2004. Bens best playoff run 2005. Ben's best QB rating 2007. Bens highest scoring team 2007 followed by 2005. Those are the only two seasons with a top 10 O. Common factor? 2004, 2005, 2007 are the seasons we ran more than we passed. The only years Ben has missed the playoffs we threw more than we ran. We have had success at times as a passing team but we are consistently a contender when we run more. Ben is consistent when we run more. Passing more is a mixed bag.

Crash
06-12-2012, 01:29 PM
Read those stat sheets!

Slapstick
06-12-2012, 01:31 PM
Read those stat sheets!

There is a reason why they keep statistics...

There is also a reason why they compare statistics to results...

RuthlessBurgher
06-12-2012, 01:38 PM
Read those stat sheets!

Seems like most of the folks here are focusing on WINS...leading us to CHAMPIONSHIP SEASONS. Citing the most important stats such as POINTS FOR and POINTS AGAINST.

You, on the other hand, are more concerned with things like percentage of runs on first down in the red zone and starting field position. Seems to be like you are the one focused on the stat sheets, not the standings.

Crash
06-12-2012, 01:42 PM
There is a reason why they keep statistics...

There is also a reason why they compare statistics to results...

What was the run game ranked in 2004?

What was the run game ranked in 2008?

Statistics don't tell you context. If stats meant everything Philip Rivers would be first team All Pro.

Slapstick
06-12-2012, 01:54 PM
What was the run game ranked in 2004?

What was the run game ranked in 2008?

Statistics don't tell you context. If stats meant everything Philip Rivers would be first team All Pro.


Correct. You need to look at the stats in context...which is exactly what Captain Lemming does...

Crash
06-12-2012, 02:00 PM
Correct. You need to look at the stats in context...which is exactly what Captain Lemming does...

No he doesn't. He's looking at TOTALS. He's making the same mistakes that uneducated national media do in regards to this team and how they win.

Slapstick
06-12-2012, 02:12 PM
No he doesn't. He's looking at TOTALS. He's making the same mistakes that uneducated national media do in regards to this team and how they win.

Of course you say that, because to admit otherwise is devastating to your argument...

That's the straw man argument. Restate the opposing argument incorrectly and argue against that...

Crash
06-12-2012, 02:18 PM
Of course you say that, because

I actually WATCH our games.

Slapstick
06-12-2012, 02:19 PM
I actually WATCH our games

...and do not understand what you see.

Crash
06-12-2012, 02:24 PM
...and do not understand what you see.

Please. I know more about this team and why they win or lose better than the laywer does.

Just remember this one, if we lose in Denver these three things will happen:

1. A TD scored by Peyton's offense on their first series of the season.

2. A TD scored by Peyton's offense after we score a TD ourselves.

3. Crap 4th quarter defense.

Print it, save it, and watch.

papillon
06-12-2012, 02:28 PM
Please. I know more about this team and why they win or lose better than the laywer does.

Just remember this one, if we lose in Denver these three things will happen:

1. A TD scored by Peyton's offense on their first series of the season.

2. A TD scored by Peyton's offense after we score a TD ourselves.

3. Crap 4th quarter defense.

Print it, save it, and watch.

And, you forgot to add the pick or sack for loss that takes the offense out of FG range to win the game. Oh wait, that would be Ben making that mistake and we know that can't happen.

Pappy

Slapstick
06-12-2012, 02:28 PM
Please. I know more about this team and why they win or lose better than the laywer does.

Just remember this one, if we lose in Denver these three things will happen:

1. A TD scored by Peyton's offense on their first series of the season.

2. A TD scored by Peyton's offense after we score a TD ourselves.

3. Crap 4th quarter defense.

Print it, save it, and watch.

Well, I'll at least watch...

Crash
06-12-2012, 02:30 PM
And, you forgot to add the pick or sack for loss that takes the offense out of FG range to win the game.

When was that? Do tell.

Slapstick
06-12-2012, 02:34 PM
When was that? Do tell.


[/COLOR]

The Denver playoff game...


1st-10, DEN45 0:29B. Roethlisberger sacked by E. Dumervil. B. Roethlisberger fumbled. B. Roethlisberger recovered fumble 2nd-21, PIT 44 0:18B. Roethlisberger incomplete pass down the middle 3rd-21, PIT 44 0:12Pittsburgh committed 5 yard penalty 3rd-26, PIT 39 0:12B. Roethlisberger passed to I. Redman to the right for 12 yard gain 4th-14, DEN 49 0:00B. Roethlisberger sacked by R. Ayers

Crash
06-12-2012, 02:35 PM
So they were in FG range from the Denver 45? Really?

Slapstick
06-12-2012, 02:47 PM
So they were in FG range from the Denver 45? Really?

What's the longest FG kicked in Denver?

Crash
06-12-2012, 02:49 PM
What's the longest FG kicked in Denver?

And when we have Seabass or Elam kicking for us you let me know.

Slapstick
06-12-2012, 02:51 PM
And when we have Seabass or Elam kicking for us you let me know.

So, losing 11 yards on 1st and ten was a good thing when trying to kick a winning FG with :30 left to play...got it...

Crash
06-12-2012, 02:53 PM
So, losing 11 yards on 1st and ten was a good thing when trying to kick a winning FG with :30 left to play...got it...

Pay attention, he said we were in field goal range and then Ben took a sack and got them out.

I asked him when.

You claim it was Denver. Which tells me YOU believe, that Suisham would have attempted a 61 yarder in Denver.

I say he wouldn't have.

Pay attention to the thread and stop looking to argue.

Slapstick
06-12-2012, 02:58 PM
Pay attention, he said we were in field goal range and then Ben took a sack and got them out.

I asked him when.

You claim it was Denver. Which tells me YOU believe, that Suisham would have attempted a 61 yarder in Denver.

I say he wouldn't have.

Pay attention to the thread and stop looking to argue.

You asked for a sack in the 4th quarter that took the Steelers out of FG range...

I pointed one out...

If there were :03 left in the game? I believe that Suisham would have attempted a 61 yarder...

But, since the sack eliminated that possibility, we'll never know...

Crash
06-12-2012, 03:01 PM
You asked for a sack in the 4th quarter that took the Steelers out of FG range...

I pointed one out...

So you think 61 yards is in FG range? So you believe that Shaun Suisham, a known post season failure, would have had a realistic chance to kick a GW FG from 61 yards?

Ok then.

Slapstick
06-12-2012, 03:03 PM
So you think 61 yards is in FG range? So you believe that Shaun Suisham, a known post season failure, would have had a realistic chance to kick a GW FG from 61 yards?

Ok then.
[/COLOR]

A much better shot than from 72 yards, where the sack would have made the kick...

Looking at the situation objectively, taking a sack with less than 30 seconds on the clock in a tie game, especially when you are on the opponent's side of the 50, is just bad football...

Crash
06-12-2012, 03:05 PM
A much better shot than from 72 yards, where the sack would have made the kick...

Looking at the situation objectively, taking a sack with less than 30 seconds on the clock in a tie game, especially when you are on the opponent's side of the 50, is just bad football...

He didn't take a sack. The ball was swiped out of his hands after he beat a double team.

Gotta watch the game Slap.

Slapstick
06-12-2012, 03:07 PM
He didn't take a sack. The ball was swiped out of his hands after he beat a double team.

Gotta watch the game Slap.

Ah...

Okay then, looking at the situation objectively, fumbling the football (aka taking a sack) with less than 30 seconds on the clock in a tie game, especially when you are on the opponent's side of the 50, is just bad football...

Crash
06-12-2012, 03:12 PM
Ah...

Okay then, looking at the situation objectively, fumbling the football (aka taking a sack) with less than 30 seconds on the clock in a tie game, especially when you are on the opponent's side of the 50, is just bad football...

Actually it was a great play by a great player. Nothing else.

Slapstick
06-12-2012, 03:17 PM
Actually it was a great play by a great player. Nothing else.

...that took the Steelers out of FG range.

Dumervil is a bad dude...

Crash
06-12-2012, 03:30 PM
...that took the Steelers out of FG range.

Dumervil is a bad dude...

61 yards isn't FG range. Now if it's 55 yards? Sure. But 61? That's fantasy.

Skippy (who has a much stronger leg than Suisham) once tried from 65 in Denver and wasn't even close.

Slapstick
06-12-2012, 03:43 PM
61 yards isn't FG range. Now if it's 55 yards? Sure. But 61? That's fantasy.

Skippy (who has a much stronger leg than Suisham) once tried from 65 in Denver and wasn't even close.

So, instead of losing 11 yards on 1st down, it would have been better to gain six yards before the end of the game?

I agree completely.

RuthlessBurgher
06-12-2012, 03:45 PM
No he doesn't. He's looking at TOTALS. He's making the same mistakes that uneducated national media do in regards to this team and how they win.

How exactly does this team win, o wizard of the message boards? Enlighten us. Seems to me, from your point of view, the Steelers rely solely on demi-God Ben who is saddled with a bunch of other players, coaches, front offices staff, ownership, and even fans who are mindless, drooling nincompoops. That about right?

Crash
06-12-2012, 03:52 PM
So, instead of losing 11 yards on 1st down, it would have been better to gain six yards before the end of the game?

I agree completely.

The point is once again you are moving the target. I simply asked him which games we were in FG range and then sacks took them out.

You said Denver. Which tells me, that you believe 61 yards is in FG range.

I don't believe that to be the case.

Stop trolling. It's pathetic.

RuthlessBurgher
06-12-2012, 03:56 PM
Stop trolling.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-_hDGEF2Plzc/Tya4QiV0Q6I/AAAAAAAAAVY/4TcmwhXlack/s1600/pot-kettle-black.jpg

Crash
06-12-2012, 03:57 PM
How exactly does this team win, o wizard of the message boards?

Same way they always do. Pass early with defense, run late.

The problems occur however, is when early passing and defense doesn't work and they get behind.

Yinzers, would rather they still run the ball, as long as they run, even if they lose, they are satisfied with the ol' college try.

Me? If my offense is struggling early? I do everything I can to get them out of it. I'm not going to be content with running the ball to keep a game close in a losing effort for the sole reason of satisfying idiots.

papillon
06-12-2012, 04:23 PM
When was that? Do tell.


[/COLOR]

Well, one pick that fortunately didn't cost the Steelers a Super Bowl was against Seattle with the Steelers leading by 11 and looking to put the game away and Ben throws the pick around the Seattle 5 yard line that is returned to the Steeler 20 or there about and the Hawks get a TD to make the game 14-10 instead of 21-3 and game over. I can't recall a sack that took them out of FG range late, because I just can't remember every game since 2004, but Ben does take sacks at bad times, it's part of his allure actually.

Pappy

papillon
06-12-2012, 04:30 PM
Same way they always do. Pass early with defense, run late.

The problems occur however, is when early passing and defense doesn't work and they get behind.

Yinzers, would rather they still run the ball, as long as they run, even if they lose, they are satisfied with the ol' college try.

Me? If my offense is struggling early? I do everything I can to get them out of it. I'm not going to be content with running the ball to keep a game close in a losing effort for the sole reason of satisfying idiots.


[/COLOR]

Who is advocating this type of offense when the Steelers are losing? For that matter, who is advocating running the ball more than passing it? It seems to me that everyone believes Ben will be the beneficiary of a good (efficient) running game and that his play action pass abilities will only be enhanced. You are the one putting words in posters comments if they don't want the Steelers to have Ben drop back 50-60 times a game and pass the ball because Ben earns 100 million per annum. Not one poster here believes that the Steelers can win football games rushing the ball alone and making Ben an after thought. However, there are those of us who recognize that he does make mistakes and fortunately has the ability to rectify them with superlative play.

You are the only poster making any real negative comments about Art Rooney, Yinzers, Haley (he hasn't even called a ply from scrimmage yet and you hate him), Lebeau, the defense everyone except Ben, he can do no wrong in your eyes. That's cool, but he does have brain cramps almost weekly and it makes for exciting football. Fortunately, he's skilled enough to typically correct any mistake he's made with his competence as a quarterback.

Pappy

Crash
06-12-2012, 04:52 PM
Well, one pick that fortunately didn't cost the Steelers a Super Bowl was against Seattle with the Steelers leading by 11 and looking to put the game away and Ben throws the pick around the Seattle 5 yard line that is returned to the Steeler 20 or there about and the Hawks get a TD to make the game 14-10 instead of 21-3 and game over

And what happened on that drive? Run run pass/pick.

Late in the 1st half? Run run, Ben bootleg, TD.

Two 1st down RZ plays in XL: 2 runs 0 passes.

Two 2nd down RZ plays in XL: 2 runs 0 passes.
__________________________________________

See what happens when you force the run for the sake of doing it?

squidkid
06-12-2012, 09:08 PM
If Ben throws the ball 600+ times a year suicide rates in Pittsburgh would double.

why are you avoiding my stat?
you said he hands off every play, i prove to you that he passes the ball more than 23 other qbs in the league. how is that possible?

Crash
06-12-2012, 09:14 PM
why are you avoiding my stat?
you said he hands off every play, i prove to you that he passes the ball more than 23 other qbs in the league. how is that possible?

And how many of those passes are in obvious situations at the end of halves or games?

Two minutes to go down 7 points, what should they do? Run the ball, chew the clock, lose, and go home?

fordfixer
06-12-2012, 09:14 PM
Oh this argument again. :confused:

This is Ben's 9th season. In this season he will be paid $15 MILLION.

If you want a game manager to hand off all day. Ben needs to go.

Good day.
If Ben goes will you go with him?

Crash
06-12-2012, 09:16 PM
If Ben goes will you go with him?

No, I'm a Steelers fan. But not one of those fans who wants Ben off this team just so they can go back to 1970s ball.

hawaiiansteel
06-12-2012, 09:23 PM
And how many of those passes are in obvious situations at the end of halves or games?

Two minutes to go down 7 points, what should they do? Run the ball, chew the clock, lose, and go home?


and you don't think other teams also face that same situation at the end of halves and games?

Crash
06-12-2012, 09:27 PM
and you don't think other teams also face that same situation at the end of halves and games?

But that's just it. We get leads and we sit on the ball. Then schmucks complain how we don't score.

30th in field position and a defense forces less than one turnover a game for a whole season, gets destroyed by Joe freaking Flacco and the biggest side show in NFL history, and the offense gets revamped while the defense is somehow praised.

papillon
06-12-2012, 11:43 PM
And what happened on that drive? Run run pass/pick.

Late in the 1st half? Run run, Ben bootleg, TD.

Two 1st down RZ plays in XL: 2 runs 0 passes.

Two 2nd down RZ plays in XL: 2 runs 0 passes.
__________________________________________

See what happens when you force the run for the sake of doing it?

What happened was Ben threw a pick at an inopportune time in the game and in the end it didn't matter. Now you're more than welcome to rationalize Ben's mistake and blame it on Lebeau, Arians, Tomlin, Haley (I'm not sure how, but I'm sure you'll figure a way to blame him too) or Rooney. You asked for an example where Ben threw a bad pick and I gave you one. I'm certain he's taken a bad sack as well and you can make that assumption and be correct just because of the way Ben plays the game, he tries to win on every play. I personally love his style, but he does screw up many times. He's simply so GD good when he's good that you have to overlook the bad. No one on this board hates Ben and I'm certain we're all passionate about the Steelers and them winning. At times it's difficult to understand how you're a fan of this team with the clear animosity you have for some players and coaches.

Pappy

fordfixer
06-13-2012, 12:18 AM
What happened was Ben threw a pick at an inopportune time in the game and in the end it didn't matter. Now you're more than welcome to rationalize Ben's mistake and blame it on Lebeau, Arians, Tomlin, Haley (I'm not sure how, but I'm sure you'll figure a way to blame him too) or Rooney. You asked for an example where Ben threw a bad pick and I gave you one. I'm certain he's taken a bad sack as well and you can make that assumption and be correct just because of the way Ben plays the game, he tries to win on every play. I personally love his style, but he does screw up many times. He's simply so GD good when he's good that you have to overlook the bad. No one on this board hates Ben and I'm certain we're all passionate about the Steelers and them winning. At times it's difficult to understand how you're a fan of this team with the clear animosity you have for some players and coaches.

Pappy
I agree with Pappy

Captain Lemming
06-13-2012, 12:47 AM
No, I'm a Steelers fan. But not one of those fans who wants Ben off this team just so they can go back to 1970s ball.

I want Ben to throw 32 TDs against defenses that fear our run game like he did when we ran the the ball more. Ben did it in a hundred fewer attempts than last year.

Captain Lemming
06-13-2012, 01:13 AM
No he doesn't. He's looking at TOTALS. He's making the same mistakes that uneducated national media do in regards to this team and how they win. No Crash the media is like YOU and think that a QB needs to throw 40 time a game to prove he is great. YARDAGE is the meaningless "TOTAL" and you want to see Ben up there with the likes of Peyton, Rodgers, and Brady in the in some vain attempt to prove he can do it too. I don't care about "totals" except for Points and "wins". In 2005 we scored more actual points despite employing "the turtle" which you hate to close games.

Crash
06-13-2012, 01:26 AM
I want Ben to throw 32 TDs against defenses that fear our run game like he did when we ran the the ball more. Ben did it in a hundred fewer attempts than last year.

And how many of those 32 TD passes were in the second half because they were down in games? 12. As I say, what should they do when they are down in games late? Run the ball and lose?

If the Steelers are going to go back to running the ball, and they get leads in the first half? He'll get nowhere near 32. He'll get about 20-22.

Again, you read stat sheets, I'll watch the games.

Crash
06-13-2012, 01:31 AM
In 2005 we scored more actual points despite employing "the turtle" which you hate to close games.[/COLOR]

And guess what? They also forced 32 turnovers. Or should I say more than TWICE as many as they did in 2011.

You get turnovers, you get short fields, you get turnovers, you get more chances to score points.

hawaiiansteel
06-13-2012, 01:59 AM
You get turnovers, you get short fields, you get turnovers, you get more chances to score points.


the New Orleans Saints only forced one more turnover than we did all of last regular season, yet we were 21st in scoring and the Saints were 2nd in the NFL in that category outscoring us by 222 points.

Crash
06-13-2012, 02:01 AM
the New Orleans Saints only forced one more turnover than we did all of last regular season, yet we were 21st in scoring and the Saints were 2nd in the NFL in that category outscoring us by 222 points.

And Drew Brees played in a dome all year and threw 600+ passes.

Ben throws 600+ passes Todd Haley won't see 2013 as the OC of this team.

hawaiiansteel
06-13-2012, 02:03 AM
And Drew Brees played in a dome all year and threw 600+ passes.

Ben throws 600+ passes Todd Haley won't see 2013 as the OC of this team.


but I thought it was all about the turnovers?

Crash
06-13-2012, 02:05 AM
but I thought it was all about the turnovers?

For the way Art wants US to play football, turnovers are a must.

Captain Lemming
06-13-2012, 02:07 AM
And guess what? They also forced 32 turnovers. Or should I say more than TWICE as many as they did in 2011.

You get turnovers, you get short fields, you get turnovers, you get more chances to score points.

Wow great point.
However.....that 2005 team.
The one that ran so much.

It scored more than EVERY PASS HEAVY TEAM WE HAVE HAD in this era. 2006, 2008, 2009, 2010 AND last season. We had 36 turnovers one year and scored less than the 2005 team.

Crash this is just WAY too easy. :)

Crash
06-13-2012, 02:11 AM
Crash this is just WAY too easy. :)

I agree, you prove how little you watch this team. You are comparing a totally different game then to the one Roger Goodell is creating NOW.

Crash
06-13-2012, 02:14 AM
I agree, you prove how little you watch this team Cap.

If the Steelers are losing a game big in 2012? I hope they run the ball the entire 2nd half just to satisfy clowns like you.

hawaiiansteel
06-13-2012, 02:16 AM
And Drew Brees played in a dome all year and threw 600+ passes.

and if Ben had thrown 600+ passes behind last year's OL and with Arians' affinity for slow developing 7-step drop patterns he would have been broken in two or killed by the end of the year.

Crash
06-13-2012, 02:17 AM
and if Ben had thrown 600+ passes behind last year's OL and with Arians' affinity for slow developing 7-step drop patterns he would have been broken in two or killed by the end of the year.

And yet, he was broken by the end of the year anyway with our 58% run on first down offense.

That worked.

hawaiiansteel
06-13-2012, 02:32 AM
And yet, he was broken by the end of the year anyway with our 58% run on first down offense.

That worked.


he was broken by the end of the year with us running less than 45% of the time and passing more than 55% of the time.

no, it didn't work and that's one of the many reasons Bruce Arians is no longer employed by the Pittsburgh Steelers.

Captain Lemming
06-13-2012, 02:35 AM
You are comparing a totally different game then to the one Roger Goodell is creating NOW.

Minus the opening dig, this is your best point.
Nevertheless, nobody is even TRYING to do what we did back then with an elite QB. Only teams with scrub QBs do this.
I believe that with all the emphasis on passing teams are actually LESS able to handle a team with an equally scary run and pass game.
i
I liked what Houston was doing before Shuab got hurt. San Fran is close. Both have QBs that are close but not quite there yet. Put a truly elite QB on those teams and you have a dynasty.

Crash
06-13-2012, 02:36 AM
he was broken by the end of the year with us running less than 45% of the time and passing more than 55% of the time.

no, it didn't work and that's one of the many reasons Bruce Arians is no longer employed by the Pittsburgh Steelers.

Wow, 55% passing. That's run n shoot I tell ya.

Only in friggin' Pittsburgh do people want a HOF QB to be Trent Dilfer.

Crash
06-13-2012, 02:42 AM
Put a truly elite QB on those teams and you have a dynasty.

Schaub threw the ball 30 times a game. You don't want that in Pittsburgh. You want Cowher Ball.

hawaiiansteel
06-13-2012, 02:45 AM
Wow, 55% passing. That's run n shoot I tell ya.

Only in friggin' Pittsburgh do people want a HOF QB to be Trent Dilfer.

I don't want him to be Trent Dilfer, I want Ben to be healthy at the end of the year and not hobbling around like a gimp.

with us passing over 55% of the time and with Arians' love for calling slow developing 7-step drop passes behind an inferior OL he almost got our franchise QB killed. if Ben wasn't so damn tough he would have been, it was definitely time for a new OC who could understand that and who would also be able to design less predictable running plays and more efficient plays once we got into the red zone.

Ben wasn't the problem, but Arians most definitely was and he had to go so Ben can realize his full and immense potential.

Crash
06-13-2012, 02:47 AM
The problems on offense was the commitment to the run, which is what ownership wanted.

Arians did what the lawyer wanted, and he still got fired.

hawaiiansteel
06-13-2012, 02:49 AM
The problems on offense was the commitment to the run, which is what ownership wanted.

Arians did what the lawyer wanted, and he still got fired.


we ran less than 45% of the time, does that sound like a commitment to the run to you?

Crash
06-13-2012, 02:51 AM
58% on first down, and 65% on 1st down in the red zone.

That's commitment to the run game. Almost to the point of obsession.

hawaiiansteel
06-13-2012, 02:57 AM
58% on first down, and 65% on 1st down in the red zone.

That's commitment to the run game. Almost to the point of obsession.


no, that's being predictable.

yet another reason why Arians had to go.

Crash
06-13-2012, 03:01 AM
no, that's being predictable.

yet another reason why Arians had to go.

But he did what he was told.

You watch what people say if Haley tries to open up the offense and they aren't winning.

RUN THE BALL! Play offense like they did when you're Daddy was here! You are from Pittsburgh, you know we run the ball here!

hawaiiansteel
06-13-2012, 03:08 AM
But he did what he was told.

Arians wasn't told he had to run the ball 58% on first down and 65% on 1st down in the red zone. that was his choice, he could have passed the ball on first down and ran on second and/or 3rd downs.

but Arians was predictable and stubborn, and that's ultimately what led to his dismissal.

Crash
06-13-2012, 03:10 AM
Arians wasn't told he had to run the ball 58% on first down and 65% on 1st down in the red zone. that was his choice, he could have passed the ball on first down and ran on second and/or 3rd downs.

but Arians was predictable and stubborn, and that's ultimately what led to his dismissal.

And LeBeau isn't? Arians was fired because someone had to be, and Art won't want to look like a bad guy by forcing LeBeau out.

squidkid
06-13-2012, 05:20 AM
And how many of those passes are in obvious situations at the end of halves or games?

Two minutes to go down 7 points, what should they do? Run the ball, chew the clock, lose, and go home?

gezzus crash, did you think the steelers were the only team in the league that had to play the last two minutes of a game? the only team that had halves and finals? do yoy really think the steelers were down by 7 with 2 minutes to go more than any other team in the league?

Slapstick
06-13-2012, 07:35 AM
And LeBeau isn't? Arians was fired because someone had to be, and Art won't want to look like a bad guy by forcing LeBeau out.

LeBeau called a defense that was #1 in scoring...

Arians called an offense that was 21st in scoring...with elite talent at QB and WR...and a 1st round pick at RB...

Slapstick
06-13-2012, 07:36 AM
Schaub threw the ball 30 times a game. You don't want that in Pittsburgh. You want Cowher Ball.

I would love for Ben to throw the ball 30 times per game...

Believe it or not, that would actually be less than last season...

Crash
06-13-2012, 11:39 AM
LeBeau called a defense that was #1 in scoring

Can't give up points when the offense keeps you off the field Slap.


Arians called an offense that was 21st in scoring...with elite talent at QB and WR...and a 1st round pick at RB...

Can't score a ton of points when you go 80 yards every drive (which keeps the defense off the field) and then are forced to run the ball. Said #1 pick at RB also battled nagging injuries all year behind an OL that was injured all year as well.

You read, I'll WATCH.

Crash
06-13-2012, 11:41 AM
I would love for Ben to throw the ball 30 times per game...

Believe it or not, that would actually be less than last season...

And when they are down late in a game with no timeouts and need 80 yards to go, they run the ball, right?

Crash
06-13-2012, 11:52 AM
gezzus crash, did you think the steelers were the only team in the league that had to play the last two minutes of a game? the only team that had halves and finals? do yoy really think the steelers were down by 7 with 2 minutes to go more than any other team in the league?

When you are 30th in field position (On a team that had a Pro Bowl Returner) because your defense can't force turnovers and you have to commit to running the ball like ownership wants? You aren't going to score a lot of points because of the time it takes.

Art has a choice A) He can stop meddling and allow his OCs to run his offense or B) Keep meddling, and don't win Super Bowls anymore.

What would be funny? Is if the defense still can't force turnovers, and the offense struggles because of those same issues with Haley as they did with Arians, but because a "Pittsburgh guy" is now running the offense, THEN LeBeau will start facing the heat.

The worst thing that could have happened to LeBeau did, a PITTSBURGH GUY, now runs their offense.

fordfixer
06-13-2012, 12:32 PM
When you are 30th in field position (On a team that had a Pro Bowl Returner) because your defense can't force turnovers and you have to commit to running the ball like ownership wants? You aren't going to score a lot of points because of the time it takes.

Art has a choice A) He can stop meddling and allow his OCs to run his offense or B) Keep meddling, and don't win Super Bowls anymore.

What would be funny? Is if the defense still can't force turnovers, and the offense struggles because of those same issues with Haley as they did with Arians, but because a "Pittsburgh guy" is now running the offense, THEN LeBeau will start facing the heat.

The worst thing that could have happened to LeBeau did, a PITTSBURGH GUY, now runs their offense.

What kind of "fan" would find it funny to see their team lose? Go back to the Browns board you came from

Crash
06-13-2012, 12:41 PM
What kind of "fan" would find it funny to see their team lose?


Learn to read.

Who said anything about losing? Not I. We won 12 games last season, Arians still got fired. So winning didn't help Arians did it?

The point is, now that a PITTSBURGH GUY runs their offense? LeBeau's defense better start forcing turnovers and start holding 4th quarter leads in big games.

Because if they don't? And fans start whining about it because it hinders the local guy's offense? LeBeau will be looking for work.

phillyesq
06-13-2012, 01:03 PM
Oh this argument again. :confused:

This is Ben's 9th season. In this season he will be paid $15 MILLION.

If you want a game manager to hand off all day. Ben needs to go.

Good day.

So, as always, when confronted when information that does not support your point, you simply decline to provide a meaningful response. Did I say that I wanted a game manager? No, you brought up the straw man and refuted your own bogus argument by referring to Ben's salary.

Bottom line, there is generally an inverse relationship between Ben's passing attempts and the Steelers winning percentage.

Crash
06-13-2012, 01:10 PM
Bottom line, there is generally an inverse relationship between Ben's passing attempts and the Steelers winning percentage.

And like I said, when Ben has ONE TURNOVER, and they are down 29-7 in the 2nd half what do YOU WANT?

Run the ball because we're the Steelers?

or

Pass to try and get back in the game?

hawaiiansteel
06-13-2012, 01:45 PM
When you are 30th in field position (On a team that had a Pro Bowl Returner) because your defense can't force turnovers and you have to commit to running the ball like ownership wants? You aren't going to score a lot of points because of the time it takes.


we ran the ball less than 45% of the time and passed more than 55% of the time last season, you conveniently seem to overlook that fact with your "we had to commit to the run" comments.

Crash
06-13-2012, 01:56 PM
we ran the ball less than 45% of the time and passed more than 55% of the time last season, you conveniently seem to overlook that fact with your "we had to commit to the run" comments.

And like you were told, how many of those passes were in obvious pass situations at halves or the end of games?

First down is the most important play of any series. And we ran 58% of the time on it.

That number MUST be closer to 50%. That way you see, 2nd down can be closer to 50% as well.

Slapstick
06-13-2012, 02:04 PM
And like you were told, how many of those passes were in obvious pass situations at halves or the end of games?

First down is the most important play of any series. And we ran 58% of the time on it.

That number MUST be closer to 50%. That way you see, 2nd down can be closer to 50% as well.

Correct. Having a plan to be able to run on a given down is a true commitment to the run.

Crash
06-13-2012, 02:06 PM
Correct. Having a plan to be able to run on a given down is a true commitment to the run.

When it's 2nd and 10? They aren't running 50% of the time with a $15 mil a year QB.

Sorry, just the way it is.

Slapstick
06-13-2012, 02:13 PM
When it's 2nd and 10? They aren't running 50% of the time with a $15 mil a year QB.

Sorry, just the way it is.

Again, the idea is to run effectively so that a pass or run option exists on 2nd down (ie 2nd and 6).

Nobody but you believes in running just for the sake of running. The rest of us, including Art II, want an effective running game that DCs must account for in game planning. Not was Arians did.

hawaiiansteel
06-13-2012, 02:20 PM
And like you were told, how many of those passes were in obvious pass situations at halves or the end of games?

irst down is the most important play of any series. And we ran 58% of the time on it.

and like I responded back to you earlier but you conveniently chose to ignore, do you think the Steelers are the only team that find themselves in obvious passing situations at the end of halves or at the end of games?

because Arians chose to be predictable on first down was Arians' choice, that's not a commitment to the run but instead is sheer stupidity, arrogance and predictability. how you can continue to defend Arians and his ridiculous play calling is beyond me...

Crash
06-13-2012, 02:27 PM
and like I responded back to you earlier but you conveniently chose to ignore, do you think the Steelers are the only team that find themselves in obvious passing situations at the end of halves or at the end of games?

No, but not many teams are as obsessed with running the ball as our owner and some fans want either. Not many teams also would ignore the fact that a defense forces 15 turnovers all year on a team where forcing the run is an issue.

You can't force the run and only force 15 turnovers all year and expect to score 30 points a game.


because Arians chose to be predictable on first down was Arians' choice, that's not a commitment to the run but instead is sheer stupidity, arrogance and predictability. how you can continue to defend Arians and his ridiculous play calling is beyond me...

If Haley's offense runs the ball on 50% of 1st down and the defense still stinks in the 4th quarter? II will fire Haley for it.

Slapstick
06-13-2012, 02:33 PM
No, but not many teams are as obsessed with running the ball as our owner and some fans want either. Not many teams also would ignore the fact that a defense forces 15 turnovers all year on a team where forcing the run is an issue.

You can't force the run and only force 15 turnovers all year and expect to score 30 points a game.



If Haley's offense runs the ball on 50% of 1st down and the defense still stinks in the 4th quarter? II will fire Haley for it. [/COLOR]

If Haley's offense is able to score more points and run the ball, close games in the 4th shouldn't be a problem...

Crash
06-13-2012, 02:38 PM
If Haley's offense is able to score more points and run the ball, close games in the 4th shouldn't be a problem...

They'll always be an issue as long as LeBeau is here. Just the way it is.

The only way it won't be? Is if we stop obsessing over the run and just blow teams out of the water with the alleged skill we have on offense.

Slapstick
06-13-2012, 02:44 PM
They'll always be an issue as long as LeBeau is here. Just the way it is.

The only way it won't be? Is if we stop obsessing over the run and just blow teams out of the water with the alleged skill we have on offense.

Well, passing 56% of the time isn't getting it done...

Improving the run game is the alternative..

Crash
06-13-2012, 03:01 PM
Well, passing 56% of the time isn't getting it done

So like I told you. When they need a score and it's hurry up, you want to run the ball, yes?

You read stats, you don't watch games and follow context.

If you want 1970s football? Ben has to go. You can't play 1970s football with a $15 mil a year QB.

hawaiiansteel
06-13-2012, 03:09 PM
So like I told you. When they need a score and it's hurry up, you want to run the ball, yes?



how about those times when we are up at the end of games then and just run the ball or take a knee 3 times, that skews the percentages just as much the other way also.

can't just conveniently pick one way just because it suits your needs better...

Slapstick
06-13-2012, 03:14 PM
So like I told you. When they need a score and it's hurry up, you want to run the ball, yes?

You read stats, you don't watch games and follow context.

If you want 1970s football? Ben has to go. You can't play 1970s football with a $15 mil a year QB.

You are either incapable of understanding me or you are just being willfully ignorant...

Simply restating my argument incorrectly isn't actual discussion..it just means that you can't refute my point and you refuse to concede it, so you change my argument into something easier for you to deal with...

When a score is needed and time is limited, I want the Steelers to be able to pass effectively...

When a lead needs to be maintained late in the 4th quarter, I want the Steelers to be able to run effectively and churn out 1st downs..

On first downs, I want the Steelers to be able to pass and run with equal efficacy, so the defenses are unable to make the Steelers one-dimensional on 2nd and 3rd downs...

How's that for context?

And stop patronizing other posters by claiming that only you watch the games...again, that is simply a cheap tactic that you use when you are unable to discuss things like an adult...

Crash
06-13-2012, 03:19 PM
how about those times when we are up at the end of games then and just run the ball or take a knee 3 times, that skews the percentages just as much the other way also.

Not sure but I don't believe kneel downs are considered an official rushing stat anymore.

Rushing at the end of games when we have a lead? We've done that for 8 years, and there's no issue with that when they are winning and playing well.

The problem however, is that most fans who love 1970s football can't grasp the concept that when your defense has a bad game? Or when you can't run the ball? You MUST throw.

They would rather run just for the sake of "balance".

29-7 in Baltimore in the 2nd half, Ben had one turnover at that point? What should they do to try and get back in the game?

That's what people refuse to consider.

Crash
06-13-2012, 03:21 PM
When a lead needs to be maintained late in the 4th quarter, I want the Steelers to be able to run effectively and churn out 1st downs..

That hasn't been the issue. That's not why 4th quarter leads have been blown at an alarming rate since 2009.

Slapstick
06-13-2012, 03:32 PM
How often are the Steelers down 29-7?

You can't manage to the exception, you have to manage to the rule...

The Steelers threw the ball 40 times in San Fran...how much did they score?

Crash
06-13-2012, 03:38 PM
How often are the Steelers down 29-7?

You can't manage to the exception, you have to manage to the rule...

The Steelers threw the ball 40 times in San Fran...how much did they score?

And what happened that game? The defense once again, gave up points on their first drive.

Leads aren't blown because we throw.

Leads are blown because after the Steelers score TDs, the defense gives them right back.

Slapstick
06-13-2012, 03:54 PM
21st in scoring happens because the offense couldn't run effectively..

If the Steelers score points like their offensive talent says they should, even LeBeau's "terrible" defense shouldn't be able to screw it up...

Here's hoping "the golf coach" succeeds where Arians did not...

hawaiiansteel
06-13-2012, 03:55 PM
And what happened that game? The defense once again, gave up points on their first drive.

Leads aren't blown because we throw.

Leads are blown because after the Steelers score TDs, the defense gives them right back.


it's hard to win when you only score 3 points.

Crash
06-13-2012, 03:58 PM
21st in scoring happens because the offense couldn't run effectively

No Slap, 21st in scoring happens when you force the run and go 80 yards every time you score a point.

Hawaii here keeps talking about the Saints.

But like I told him, if Ben throws 657 times? Todd Haley will be fired by Art Rooney II.

Crash
06-13-2012, 03:59 PM
it's hard to win when you only score 3 points.

Leads are blown because after the Steelers score TDs, the defense gives them right back.

Crash
06-13-2012, 04:01 PM
If the Steelers score points like their offensive talent says they should, even LeBeau's "terrible" defense shouldn't be able to screw it up...

Well guess what? When the defense comes on the field FIRST and gives up points and time off the clock? Not much the offense can do for them at that point.

hawaiiansteel
06-13-2012, 04:02 PM
Leads are blown because after the Steelers score TDs, the defense gives them right back.


the Steelers never scored a TD in the 49ers game, you can tell that by the fact we only scored 3 points. try and stay on subject...

Slapstick
06-13-2012, 04:03 PM
No Slap, 21st in scoring happens when you force the run and go 80 yards every time you score a point.

Hawaii here keeps talking about the Saints.

But like I told him, if Ben throws 657 times? Todd Haley will be fired by Art Rooney II.

But they didn't force the run...they passed 56% of the time...

Running on first down and then abandoning it isn't a commitment to the run game..-f it were, Arians would still be in Pittsburgh...

Slapstick
06-13-2012, 04:04 PM
Well guess what? When the defense comes on the field FIRST and gives up points and time off the clock? Not much the offense can do for them at that point.

Bceause the offense isn't allowed to score until the 4th quarter?

Unless the defense gives up a 56 play 45 minute drive, the offense can do something before the 4th...

hawaiiansteel
06-13-2012, 04:04 PM
Well guess what? When the defense comes on the field FIRST and gives up points and time off the clock? Not much the offense can do for them at that point.


the offense could try and score more than 3 points the rest of the game like they did against the 49ers.

Crash
06-13-2012, 04:08 PM
Bceause the offense isn't allowed to score until the 4th quarter?

How can they score when don't get on the field for 12 minutes to start a game?

The Steelers FOR YEARS with Roethlisberger have been one of the best 1st quarter teams in football.

And LeBeau's defense in the 4th quarter STILL SUCKS.

Slapstick
06-13-2012, 04:23 PM
How can they score when don't get on the field for 12 minutes to start a game?

Aren't there an additional 48 minutes in an NFL game?

Crash
06-13-2012, 04:28 PM
Aren't there an additional 48 minutes in an NFL game?

And the game was tied with less than a quarter to go after the offense scored 10 points on two straight possessions in the second half.

Then LeBeau's defense went back on the field.

You can guess what happened next.

hawaiiansteel
06-13-2012, 04:35 PM
And the game was tied with less than a quarter to go after the offense scored 10 points on two straight possessions in the second half.

Then LeBeau's defense went back on the field.

You can guess what happened next.


which game are you now referring to?

Slapstick
06-13-2012, 04:39 PM
And the game was tied with less than a quarter to go after the offense scored 10 points on two straight possessions in the second half.

Then LeBeau's defense went back on the field.

You can guess what happened next.

And the offense roared right back and scored more than 10 points in the last 48 minutes, right?

Look, I'm happy if the defense only gives up 17 points to a good team..

I'm not happy if the offense only scores 10...

If that makes me wrong or hypodritical in your eyes, I'll have to live with that...

As you've pointed out, the league is "phasing out defense"...so, why are the Steelers, with a HoF QB and elite WRs happy with 10 points? Why should I be happy with 10?

Crash
06-13-2012, 04:46 PM
Look, I'm happy if the defense only gives up 17 points to a good team..

LIke I said, stat geek, that's what you are.

They only "looked good" on defense once Andre Johnson pulled his hamstring and then the STEELERS OFFENSE held the ball for 13 minutes of the 3rd quarter.

But then the defense had to go back on the field after we scored, and once again, they gave the lead right back.

I guess they were tired after a 20 minute half time and 2 minutes of work in the 3rd quarter.

Anyone who praises that defense for that game? Isn't qualified or bright enough to discuss this team with me.

Slapstick
06-13-2012, 04:54 PM
LIke I said, stat geek, that's what you are.

They only "looked good" on defense once Andre Johnson pulled his hamstring and then the STEELERS OFFENSE held the ball for 13 minutes of the 3rd quarter.

But then the defense had to go back on the field after we scored, and once again, they gave the lead right back.

I guess they were tired after a 20 minute half time and 2 minutes of work in the 3rd quarter.

Anyone who praises that defense for that game? Isn't qualified or bright enough to discuss this team with me.


[/COLOR]

So, you're happy if the offense can't break the 10 point barrier?

So, what's a good number for the defense as far as points allowed? 10? 7? 0?

If wanting my offense to do better than 10 points with Big Ben, Mike Wallace, Heath Miller, etc. makes me a stat geek, then okay...

But, I don't think that's how it works...

Crash
06-13-2012, 04:58 PM
If wanting my offense to do better than 10 points with Big Ben, Mike Wallace, Heath Miller, etc. makes me a stat geek, then okay...

Can't score a load of points when you get 3 quarters to do it.

The defense sucked in that game. The fact that you are "happy" with their performance is exactly what I'm talking about when I say how cluless some fans are in regard to this team.

hawaiiansteel
06-13-2012, 05:25 PM
Can't score a load of points when you get 3 quarters to do it.


are you kidding me, you can certainly score more than 10...

Crash
06-13-2012, 05:27 PM
are you kidding me, you can certainly score more than 10...

If you don't force the run you can.

What's sad about that game is down three points to take the lead BA did what Slap wants:

Three runs, no passes.

They kicked a FG and the defense went on the field and gave back a TD anway.

Remember, if Ben throws 657 passes Todd Haley will be fired by Art Rooney II.

hawaiiansteel
06-13-2012, 05:37 PM
If you don't force the run you can.



nice try, but the Steelers only ran the ball 22 times while passing 30 times. doesn't sound like they were forcing the run to me.

perhaps going 1 for 3 in the red zone had more to do with it, yet another reason why Arians needed to be replaced.

squidkid
06-13-2012, 05:57 PM
hey crash, number two in time of possession would make me a think a great qb and a fabulous OC should really be able to put up some nice stats eh?

grotonsteel
06-13-2012, 06:04 PM
hey crash, number two in time of possession would make me a think a great qb and a fabulous OC should really be able to put up some nice stats eh?

well they did except in scoring. Steelers are top-5 in most of the category and top-10 in few.

Blame it on less offensive possession and crappy execution by the offense in red zone (Blame goes to BA, O-line,Ben, RB and WR).

Team with more offensive possessions has better probability to score more.