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Oviedo
05-17-2012, 11:40 AM
I think it is very interesting that with the move of Colon to OG, the team is all but giving DeCastro and Adams starting jobs that will be theirs to lose. This is a real change or from Tomlin has always done to not give rookies anything.

It also could just be a statement of how bad our OL has been especially the play of our two Guards last year.

JUST-PLAIN-NASTY
05-17-2012, 12:09 PM
Talent always finds the field.

Except when you have coaches who believe in personal relationships above coaching relationships.

Haley is a "no nonsense" coach. Expect what Steeler fans are not accustomed to on the offensive of side of the ball when it comes to personnel decisions. Haley might be exactly what the team needed to get both feet over the wall.

feltdizz
05-17-2012, 12:16 PM
I agree JPN... sometimes it takes eyes from outside the org to see things properly. I think our OL suffered due to a few coaches and FO seeing potential in "their guys" and I wonder if Haley is the reason we went OL in the first 2 rounds.

JUST-PLAIN-NASTY
05-17-2012, 12:39 PM
I agree JPN... sometimes it takes eyes from outside the org to see things properly. I think our OL suffered due to a few coaches and FO seeing potential in "their guys" and I wonder if Haley is the reason we went OL in the first 2 rounds.

I think the Steelers bought into Haley from day 1. I think your assumption on the draft has some legs. The Arians offense seemed to do donuts even though talent was added year to year.

steelz09
05-17-2012, 12:49 PM
I agree as well.

As bad as the o-line has been let's face it, Arians didn't do them any favors from a play calling perspective. The opposing defenses would be sending the house at Ben over and over again and Arians is calling pass plays where his receivers are running routes 20 yards down field. Now, you could place the blame on Ben for not checking out of the play or adjusting to a different route such as a hot route. However, he can't blame Ben when the same stuff is happening over and over again.... for gods sake, adjust the play calling.

RuthlessBurgher
05-17-2012, 01:22 PM
Using Colon at LG during OTA's guarantees Adams nothing. The OTA's are for learning and trying out new things (remember trying out Keisel at LB during OTA's or experimenting with a pony backfield in OTA's?). I'm sure the coaches are hopeful that Adams could be our answer at LT sooner rather than later, and would love to see our best 5 OL out there together from day one: Adams-Colon-Pouncey-DeCastro-Gilbert. But they aren't handing Adams anything. He'll have to take it. If he's not able to, they could just as easily revert back to Gilbert-Foster-Pouncey-DeCastro-Colon. Jobs aren't won in helmets and shorts during OTA's (especially on the OL...those jobs are won when full hitting is allowed in Latrobe).

SteelCrazy
05-17-2012, 01:33 PM
As the guy that predicted Adams, Colon, Pouncey, DeCastro, Gilbert two weeks ago I do have to agree that Adams isnt being given anything and it easily could get Colon back on the outside if he doesnt take it. However, if Adams plays up to expected potential, we could have one of the best lines in the game in just one season.

feltdizz
05-17-2012, 01:47 PM
I agree as well.

As bad as the o-line has been let's face it, Arians didn't do them any favors from a play calling perspective. The opposing defenses would be sending the house at Ben over and over again and Arians is calling pass plays where his receivers are running routes 20 yards down field. Now, you could place the blame on Ben for not checking out of the play or adjusting to a different route such as a hot route. However, he can't blame Ben when the same stuff is happening over and over again.... for gods sake, adjust the play calling.

Sorry but Ben has to take a lot of the blame because he loved BA and if it was up to him he would've brought him back this year.

JUST-PLAIN-NASTY
05-17-2012, 02:55 PM
Using Colon at LG during OTA's guarantees Adams nothing. The OTA's are for learning and trying out new things (remember trying out Keisel at LB during OTA's or experimenting with a pony backfield in OTA's?). I'm sure the coaches are hopeful that Adams could be our answer at LT sooner rather than later, and would love to see our best 5 OL out there together from day one: Adams-Colon-Pouncey-DeCastro-Gilbert. But they aren't handing Adams anything. He'll have to take it. If he's not able to, they could just as easily revert back to Gilbert-Foster-Pouncey-DeCastro-Colon. Jobs aren't won in helmets and shorts during OTA's (especially on the OL...those jobs are won when full hitting is allowed in Latrobe).

I don't think anyone is handing Adams anything. I do think the simple fact Colon was told he would be moving to G tells you the Steelers feel there are better fits at LT & RT in a combination of keeping Colon on the field while starting their best 5. I can't believe J Scott would be part of this equation based on his play last year. I also don't believe Essex, C Scott, or Turner are in the plans of starting in 2012. So Gilbert, Adams, and Starks seem to be fighting for 2 jobs. Since Starks isn't on this team yet & coming off injury, you would assume their goal would be to have Gilbert & Adams man those spots. Nobody wins their position in underwear but the coaches & FO know what direction they want to go in. They know what they have on the roster returning. They have made their investment based on thousands of man hours of scouting and film study. Their expectations might not end up being what takes the field opening day but be assured...They will push for the expectations to be realized. I believe their expectations is to have Adams-Colon-Pouncey-DeCastro-Gilbert starting. Possibly Gilbert & Adams flipped. Like you said Ruth, Adams will have to take it and prove himself....But the Steelers will give him EVERY opportunity to meet their expectations this year. Selecting DeCastro & Adams 1-2 speaks volumes.

steelz09
05-17-2012, 03:58 PM
Sorry but Ben has to take a lot of the blame because he loved BA and if it was up to him he would've brought him back this year.

I would hope Ben and his man crush on Arians had nothing to do with Arians hanging around for so long.. Ben isn't the coach, the GM or the owner. Ben has no business persuading personnel decisions ... especially coaches.

If he is then that is Tomlin's fault.

hawaiiansteel
05-17-2012, 10:55 PM
yes, it definitely is a change in philosophy as we are trying to get our best five OL on the field at the same time.

Maurkice Pouncey at center (2010) is the only rookie to have ever started on the OL during the Mike Tomlin era and it will be interesting to see if two of them can do it this year. DeCastro seems like a given but I must admit that I'm a bit worried about Mike Adams protecting Ben's blind side week one in Denver.

Captain Lemming
05-18-2012, 02:33 AM
I agree JPN... sometimes it takes eyes from outside the org to see things properly. I think our OL suffered due to a few coaches and FO seeing potential in "their guys" and I wonder if Haley is the reason we went OL in the first 2 rounds.
Lets not get carried away with the "HALEY EFFECT" here. It is no surprise that the success of Pouncey and Gilbert as rookies has led to greater comfort in rookie lineman today. Heck, we Do you really think Haley was the reason we picked what are easily the best players on the board? We don't pick Decasto and Adams save for Haley? Really? DeCastro was a nobrainer. Adams addressed Colbert Tomlin and Rooney to make a case and sold THEM on him. We dumped Kemo already and let Max go for being fat last year. I see no undue loyalty or playing favorites before Haley arrived.

Oviedo
05-18-2012, 08:02 AM
Lets not get carried away with the "HALEY EFFECT" here. It is no surprise that the success of Pouncey and Gilbert as rookies has led to greater comfort in rookie lineman today. Heck, we Do you really think Haley was the reason we picked what are easily the best players on the board? We don't pick Decasto and Adams save for Haley? Really? DeCastro was a nobrainer. Adams addressed Colbert Tomlin and Rooney to make a case and sold THEM on him. We dumped Kemo already and let Max go for being fat last year. I see no undue loyalty or playing favorites before Haley arrived.

You bring up a great point in that Pouncey and Gilbert proved that rookies can contribute and have solid seasons on the OL. I have no doubt that is why they are willing to configure the OL like they have it penciled in for now. DeCastro and Adams are just like Pouncey and Gilbert...players from big programs who played in big conferences against big competition. I really hope the formula works again.

Where I differ with you is about Max Starks. Max saved us last season when he came back and I'd have no issue bringing his experience back again this season.

phillyesq
05-18-2012, 08:10 AM
yes, it definitely is a change in philosophy as we are trying to get our best five OL on the field at the same time.

Maurkice Pouncey at center (2010) is the only rookie to have ever started on the OL during the Mike Tomlin era and it will be interesting to see if two of them can do it this year. DeCastro seems like a given but I must admit that I'm a bit worried about Mike Adams protecting Ben's blind side week one in Denver.

Pouncey started, but Hartwig entered camp (or at least OTAs) as at least the nominal starter at center. I've never seen two rookies (or even one) named a starter within a few weeks of the draft.

grotonsteel
05-18-2012, 08:11 AM
Where I differ with you is about Max Starks. Max saved us last season when he came back and I'd have no issue bringing his experience back again this season.

+1

I would bring back Max Starks if he is healthy. Offense started playing well after Max came back. Unfortunately ankle injury to Ben derailed the Offense.

I still can't believe J Scott was the starting LT for Steelers.

calmkiller
05-18-2012, 08:37 AM
+1

I still can't believe J Scott was the starting LT for Steelers.

This is why Adams is the starter now....Think about that for a minute.....J Scott was our starting LT.....STARTING.

Oviedo
05-18-2012, 08:48 AM
+1

I would bring back Max Starks if he is healthy. Offense started playing well after Max came back. Unfortunately ankle injury to Ben derailed the Offense.

I still can't believe J Scott was the starting LT for Steelers.


Lots of disbelief with our OL the past couple of years. I couldn't believe they actually had Foster starting at RG and Kemo at LG and they thought that was OK. I couldn't believe they were talking about Legursky as the starting LG this season.

If DeCastro and Adams perform this may be a significant transformational draft where an area of weakness goes to position of strength in one season.

Djfan
05-18-2012, 09:56 AM
I still want Legs as FB.

Oviedo
05-18-2012, 10:43 AM
I still want Legs as FB.

You know, I was thinking the exact same thing. He would make the game day roster as back-up Center and short yardage FB. I never understood why we didn't use him more back there and had that bum David Johnson on the field so much.

JUST-PLAIN-NASTY
05-18-2012, 10:44 AM
Lets not get carried away with the "HALEY EFFECT" here. It is no surprise that the success of Pouncey and Gilbert as rookies has led to greater comfort in rookie lineman today. Heck, we Do you really think Haley was the reason we picked what are easily the best players on the board? We don't pick Decasto and Adams save for Haley? Really? DeCastro was a nobrainer. Adams addressed Colbert Tomlin and Rooney to make a case and sold THEM on him. We dumped Kemo already and let Max go for being fat last year. I see no undue loyalty or playing favorites before Haley arrived.

In years past, when Tomlin met with Arians at the end of the year as they looked towards the draft...I'm sure his confidence in his OL was far greater than it should have been.

Guard was a big need for the Steelers and the best fell in the draft. Steelers were rumored to even be going up to get him. Adams was 1st round talent that dropped because of his stupidity but earned a chance by reaching out to the Steelers and meeting criteria. They were the best two talents on the board but Adams wasn't a no brainer because of his red flags. Do you think none of these picks were made without Colbert & Tomlin hearing any input from Haley? DeCastro was a no brainer but Haley & Koogs had input as well on Adams.

Just because things were done "later" rather than "sooner" doesn't discount the facts. Haley was hired early February. After his evaluation, things were put in motion. We could assume Kemo was going anyway in March but I'm sure Haley agree it had to be done. Yes...Starks was dumped. That wasn't anything to do with Arians. He was 400 lbs coming of neck surgery making 7 mil when they wanted to retain Colon. FO move & the right one at the time. BA & BB were not thrilled Starks was released. The fact that his replacement wasn't on the roster should tell you something. Then Starks was the best option to bring back at that point in the season because of injuries & J Scott terrible production. Stark's performance was solid when he returned. Starks injury makes it easy to draw a conclussion but the Steelers would not have passed on Adams if Starks was healthy and under contract. Adams would have still been drafted if Colbert & the coaches felt they could make him the player he should be.

It is clearly obvious that Arians had trouble making changes because his evaluation was clouded. I would even put some on Arians for this but Koogs may be guilty of the same for J Scott. Someone had fabricated confidence he could be a starting LT in 2011. Not sure who. Apparently, Haley thinks otherwise. There were players on this OL pre Koogs that went years beyond the time they should have been allowed to prove themselves or should have been pulled for their lack of production. Year in and year out the Steelers seem to be happy with what they had until Koogs arrived. You can put it on Zierlein but Arians was his boss too. The OC makes the final call. Since it was all put into motion when Koogs came here showing he could get young OL ready to play year 1....I'm deferring all blame to Arians. Pouncey was just too talented not to beat out a broken Hartwig but injury got Gilbert on the field and he was ready. What cements it more is how BB feels about him and how resistant he was through the process. Arians was too close to his players and he had cloudy judgement when it came to production. Talent should find the field...Not a veteran you coached for many years. With Arians removed and Haley's approach combined with Koogs development skills...The best players will see the field regardless of tenure.

Oviedo
05-18-2012, 10:53 AM
...The best players will see the field regardless of tenure.

I wish we could apply that to the defense

Djfan
05-18-2012, 10:58 AM
You know, I was thinking the exact same thing. He would make the game day roster as back-up Center and short yardage FB. I never understood why we didn't use him more back there and had that bum David Johnson on the field so much.

Because BA thought a full back was a diaper needing changing.

JUST-PLAIN-NASTY
05-18-2012, 11:53 AM
I wish we could apply that to the defense

I think their hand is forced on some positions this year with Smith, Farrior, and Gay moving on. Hampton? Will McClendon or Ta'Amu be better this year? I think that is a possibility. Is Heyward ready to push Keisel out or even Hood? That day is coming. Keisel had a very good year last year. Heyward is ready to see the field. If Keisel starts slowing up he is on his heels. Is Lewis, Brown, or Allen the starter? I think that will sort itself out. I think the one position that will really fall under that is Buck. I think at some point many will question whether Stevenson could do better or Spence could play Mack with Timmons sliding over to Buck. I don't expect Foote to be a downgrade from Farrior's play last year but I do feel one of the two would be an upgrade over Foote at some point in 2012. Spence's instincts and athleticism should open eyes in camp. Sylvester should have everything down and be at his physical NFL stature by now. We will see if he could put it all together.

RuthlessBurgher
05-18-2012, 12:27 PM
I wish we could apply that to the defense

Which players on defense are the ones currently being held back in your mind?

hawaiiansteel
05-18-2012, 07:22 PM
FRIDAY, 18 MAY 2012

WRITTEN BY ED BOUCHETTE

--- After the 2009 season, in an interview with me, Art Rooney said a few things that got some notice. The one that received the most attention was him saying he felt there should be more attention paid to the running game. The one that did not get quite as much notice was him saying they should develop their young players more quickly. Since then, they have started two rookies in the offensive line, Maurkice Pouncey and Marcus Gilbert. They have quickly developed and used three young receivers – Mike Wallace, Antonio Brown and Emmanuel Sanders. And now they’ve virtually pencilled two rookies into the starting offensive line, David DeCastro and Mike Adams.

Was someone listening to the team president? And, because he obviously felt he did not follow his wishes in the running game, coordinator Bruce Arians was fired (oops, sorry, his contract was not renewed).

http://plus.sites.post-gazette.com/index.php/pro-sports/steelers/116414-ed-steelers-all-defense-team-of-21st-c

Captain Lemming
05-19-2012, 12:30 AM
FRIDAY, 18 MAY 2012

WRITTEN BY ED BOUCHETTE

--- After the 2009 season, in an interview with me, Art Rooney said a few things that got some notice. The one that received the most attention was him saying he felt there should be more attention paid to the running game. The one that did not get quite as much notice was him saying they should develop their young players more quickly. Since then, they have started two rookies in the offensive line, Maurkice Pouncey and Marcus Gilbert. They have quickly developed and used three young receivers – Mike Wallace, Antonio Brown and Emmanuel Sanders. And now they’ve virtually pencilled two rookies into the starting offensive line, David DeCastro and Mike Adams.

Was someone listening to the team president? And, because he obviously felt he did not follow his wishes in the running game, coordinator Bruce Arians was fired (oops, sorry, his contract was not renewed).

http://plus.sites.post-gazette.com/index.php/pro-sports/steelers/116414-ed-steelers-all-defense-team-of-21st-c



"Maurkice Pouncey and Marcus Gilbert. Mike Wallace, Antonio Brown and Emmanuel Sanders."

Rooney insisted they get plenty of playing time as young players because then KC coach Haley was advising him. :)

Captain Lemming
05-19-2012, 12:35 AM
You bring up a great point in that Pouncey and Gilbert proved that rookies can contribute and have solid seasons on the OL. I have no doubt that is why they are willing to configure the OL like they have it penciled in for now. DeCastro and Adams are just like Pouncey and Gilbert...players from big programs who played in big conferences against big competition. I really hope the formula works again.

Where I differ with you is about Max Starks. Max saved us last season when he came back and I'd have no issue bringing his experience back again this season.

I like Starks, hope we sign him again. I am not dissing him.
My point was that there was no undue loyaly to vets at the expence of younger players as others imply.

Captain Lemming
05-19-2012, 01:53 AM
In years past, when Tomlin met with Arians at the end of the year as they looked towards the draft...I'm sure his confidence in his OL was far greater than it should have been.

Guard was a big need for the Steelers and the best fell in the draft. Steelers were rumored to even be going up to get him. Adams was 1st round talent that dropped because of his stupidity but earned a chance by reaching out to the Steelers and meeting criteria. They were the best two talents on the board but Adams wasn't a no brainer because of his red flags. Do you think none of these picks were made without Colbert & Tomlin hearing any input from Haley? DeCastro was a no brainer but Haley & Koogs had input as well on Adams.

Just because things were done "later" rather than "sooner" doesn't discount the facts. Haley was hired early February. After his evaluation, things were put in motion. We could assume Kemo was going anyway in March but I'm sure Haley agree it had to be done. Yes...Starks was dumped. That wasn't anything to do with Arians. He was 400 lbs coming of neck surgery making 7 mil when they wanted to retain Colon. FO move & the right one at the time. BA & BB were not thrilled Starks was released. The fact that his replacement wasn't on the roster should tell you something. Then Starks was the best option to bring back at that point in the season because of injuries & J Scott terrible production. Stark's performance was solid when he returned. Starks injury makes it easy to draw a conclussion but the Steelers would not have passed on Adams if Starks was healthy and under contract. Adams would have still been drafted if Colbert & the coaches felt they could make him the player he should be.

It is clearly obvious that Arians had trouble making changes because his evaluation was clouded. I would even put some on Arians for this but Koogs may be guilty of the same for J Scott. Someone had fabricated confidence he could be a starting LT in 2011. Not sure who. Apparently, Haley thinks otherwise. There were players on this OL pre Koogs that went years beyond the time they should have been allowed to prove themselves or should have been pulled for their lack of production. Year in and year out the Steelers seem to be happy with what they had until Koogs arrived. You can put it on Zierlein but Arians was his boss too. The OC makes the final call. Since it was all put into motion when Koogs came here showing he could get young OL ready to play year 1....I'm deferring all blame to Arians. Pouncey was just too talented not to beat out a broken Hartwig but injury got Gilbert on the field and he was ready. What cements it more is how BB feels about him and how resistant he was through the process. Arians was too close to his players and he had cloudy judgement when it came to production. Talent should find the field...Not a veteran you coached for many years. With Arians removed and Haley's approach combined with Koogs development skills...The best players will see the field regardless of tenure.

I am no fan of Arians. But the irrational hatred results in imagining Haley accounts for changes that had already begun.

FACT with the exception of ONE SEASON (2008 )the only offensive players we took with one of our top two picks have been olinemen.
Last three drafts with Arians as OC we went oline with our first or second pick.
In 2009 (Urbik) 2010 (Pouncey) 2011 (Gilbert) our first offensive player was an olineman.

You can blame Arians all you like but I guaranty you that he aint the guy suggesting defensive ends over olinemen.

I can see it now:
Tomlin: Hey Bruce, should we get a O tackle in the first or this dude Heyward? Hood or or this beast at guard?
BA: "Nah, I'm good here with a couple of free agents and a 5th round pick. I dont need any help here. I am happy to take whatever is left over after you address DL in the first."

Do you know how the likes of a J Scott become starters? This happens when Marvel Smith in 2000 is the last tackle taken in the second round never mind the first, which is when the best go.

Just because a coach talks up a player doesnt mean he thinks that Jonathan Scott is Jonathan Ogden.

When an aging throway Cowboy (Adams version 1) winds up being the best you got for a season, you have pathetic talent.

Arians has many flaws. But he can only play the hand he is dealt.

To think that Haley is why we address the oline like we did and that Arians would not given the chance is just ridiculous.

The entire universe thinks the Steelers draft was stellar but save for the brilliance of Haley Tomlin and Colbert are too dumb to do what is so obvious to everyone? You mention the weed thing. The very fact that Adams persuasively pleaded his case to only the Steelers and convinced them that his risk was low made us the one team most likely to take him regardless of Haley.

JUST-PLAIN-NASTY
05-19-2012, 09:58 AM
I am no fan of Arians. But the irrational hatred results in imagining Haley accounts for changes that had already begun.

FACT with the exception of ONE SEASON (2008 )the only offensive players we took with one of our top two picks have been olinemen.
Last three drafts with Arians as OC we went oline with our first or second pick.
In 2009 (Urbik) 2010 (Pouncey) 2011 (Gilbert) our first offensive player was an olineman.

You can blame Arians all you like but I guaranty you that he aint the guy suggesting defensive ends over olinemen.

I can see it now:
Tomlin: Hey Bruce, should we get a O tackle in the first or this dude Heyward? Hood or or this beast at guard?
BA: "Nah, I'm good here with a couple of free agents and a 5th round pick. I dont need any help here. I am happy to take whatever is left over after you address DL in the first."

Do you know how the likes of a J Scott become starters? This happens when Marvel Smith in 2000 is the last tackle taken in the second round never mind the first, which is when the best go.

Just because a coach talks up a player doesnt mean he thinks that Jonathan Scott is Jonathan Ogden.

When an aging throway Cowboy (Adams version 1) winds up being the best you got for a season, you have pathetic talent.

Arians has many flaws. But he can only play the hand he is dealt.

To think that Haley is why we address the oline like we did and that Arians would not given the chance is just ridiculous.

The entire universe thinks the Steelers draft was stellar but save for the brilliance of Haley Tomlin and Colbert are too dumb to do what is so obvious to everyone? You mention the weed thing. The very fact that Adams persuasively pleaded his case to only the Steelers and convinced them that his risk was low made us the one team most likely to take him regardless of Haley.

Get irritated all you want. Putting cologne on bull$hit still smells like bull$hit. That is the whole point...Arians dealt his own hand. Coordinators & position coaches are a big part of the draft process. Starts at the season end meetings to start getting ready for the draft. Arians was happy with what he had. If it was Zierlein who was good with the players then he is still at fault because he has say. BA took over in 2007. Enter Zierlein by Arians reference & Tomlin's familiarity. From 2007-2009 with BA & Zierlein in three drafts they took Cameron Stephenson in the 5th in 2007, Tony Hills in the 4th in 2008, and Urbik in the 3rd in 2009. I'm not putting the particualr players on him but do you see any sense of urgency on the OL based on those picks? Do you really think if BA said, "I don't like this position." that Tomlin & Colbert would have tried to address it for him? So at the end of the season Rooney makes the statement. Zerlein out...Koogs in for 2010. In 2010, Pouncey in round 1 and C Scott in the 5th. Pouncey was just too talented to not see the field over Hartwig. Colon goes down...Any talent there developed yet? No...Enter Adams. In 2011, Gilbert in the 2nd. Hmmm...Wonder why? Colon goes down again. Any talent to fill the void? Oh yes...Koogs has the rookie Gilbert ready to go. Very productive season. In 2012, The Steelers go DeCastro in the 1st & Adams in the 2nd. Do you see a patern? Did Haley come in & evaluate and listen to Koogs? I would say that conversation took place. Koogs did an excellent job with what he had...But he made it known what he was working with and It went up the ladder through Haley right to Tomlin & Colbert. When the FO was FORCED to sign Adams when Colon went down...The ball was put into motion. Koogs had a big impact in the draft process when he got here day 1. It was over Arians head. Damage was done sitting on Zeirlein...All on Arians. You seem to forget that Zerlein was the OL coach under Arians (OC) from 2001-2003.

M Smith was thought to be a late 1st round talent and was drafted #38 because he tested positive. Samuels was the highest rated OT. Samuels, McDougle, & MacIntosh went before Smith. Samuels was a 6-time PB. McIntosh had has career cut short because of a neck injury and McDougle turned out to be average just starting 56 games over 7 years. Not sure where you were going with that.


You made my point with Adams. There wasn't any talent here when Koogs got here so they were forced to sign Adams when Colon went down. I don't have to explain myself. You have heard about Haley's finger prints. He wasn't forced to amend the Steelers playbook. He brought his own. It was his way from day one. If you want to believe that an OC who gets to throw out the previous playbook and bring in his playbook and a whole new system doesn't set the stage in the personnel department on the offense too...You can continue to believe that. The comfort level was one of the big reason they pushed Arians out the door and that cleansing was very obvious in the draft and the moves they are making. They were going up to get Decastro. Did Haley have anything to do with that? We will never know. They took a chance on Adams. Did Haley have any input? We may never know. But understanding how the process works...Seeing the change the first year Koogs came on board & his involvement....And now Arians being pushed out....There was blame on Arians. Haley may have been Koogs voice or it was Haley himself...But that is the way it works. Either way...It was something Arians failed at. There is too much evidence to ignore that supports that.

Captain Lemming
05-19-2012, 11:40 AM
Get irritated all you want. Putting cologne on bull$hit still smells like bull$hit. That is the whole point...Arians dealt his own hand. Coordinators & position coaches are a big part of the draft process. Starts at the season end meetings to start getting ready for the draft. Arians was happy with what he had. If it Twas Zierlein who was good with the players then he is still at fault because he has say. BA took over in 2007.

Lets see what was was done during BAs tenure:

2007 we go defense top 2 picks- How is that BAs fault?
2008 THE ONLY TIME BA might have influenced our taking skill players over big uglies in the top rounds. Mendenhall and Sweed were one and two. Steeler fans were ecstatic with the picks, though Sweed was a bust.
2009 Defense goes first- Not Arians fault- OLINE is our next pick Urbik
2010 Oline first pick oline Pouncey
2011 Defense goes firsr- first offensive player drafted was oline- Gilbert

Oline got more draft love BY FAR than any other offensive unit during the Arians era. It is not even close.
That does not look like a guy who was satisfied with what he had on the oline.

Yes you can claim the case that our youngest position coach is now somehow driving our entire draft strategy during the last two years but really that is just reaching dont you think?

If you are gonna blame Arians, you cant conveniently ignore him once Koogs arrived.

The fact is that neither Arians Koogs or now Haley bears responsibility for the draft. Colberts entire job is personnel. He and Tomlin make the call. Sure coordinators have input but ultimately who gets drafted is not their call.

To think we dont do exactly the same thing this year if BA was here is silly. You cant make a case that he did not like drafting olinemen when nearly all the premium picks on offense (all save for 2008 ) while he was here were offensive linemen.

JUST-PLAIN-NASTY
05-21-2012, 10:38 AM
Lets see what was was done during BAs tenure:

2007 we go defense top 2 picks- How is that BAs fault?
2008 THE ONLY TIME BA might have influenced our taking skill players over big uglies in the top rounds. Mendenhall and Sweed were one and two. Steeler fans were ecstatic with the picks, though Sweed was a bust.
2009 Defense goes first- Not Arians fault- OLINE is our next pick Urbik
2010 Oline first pick oline Pouncey
2011 Defense goes firsr- first offensive player drafted was oline- Gilbert

Oline got more draft love BY FAR than any other offensive unit during the Arians era. It is not even close.
That does not look like a guy who was satisfied with what he had on the oline.

Yes you can claim the case that our youngest position coach is now somehow driving our entire draft strategy during the last two years but really that is just reaching dont you think?

If you are gonna blame Arians, you cant conveniently ignore him once Koogs arrived.

The fact is that neither Arians Koogs or now Haley bears responsibility for the draft. Colberts entire job is personnel. He and Tomlin make the call. Sure coordinators have input but ultimately who gets drafted is not their call.

To think we dont do exactly the same thing this year if BA was here is silly. You cant make a case that he did not like drafting olinemen when nearly all the premium picks on offense (all save for 2008 ) while he was here were offensive linemen.



I showed you who the Steelers drafted with the Arians & Zierlein. The didn't draft any OL in the 1st or 2nd. As soon as Zerlein is removed Pouncey is picked. Koogs had Pouncey ready to play day 1 but there wasn't any talent there to field when Colon went down.They had to go out and sign Adams. Year two Gilbert is selected. Colon goes down again. Is there any left over Arians/Zeirlien talent ready to go? No...Koogs has a rookie ready to go. The talent pool Arians created was so poor...Castoffs like J Scott & Meredith that Koogs are familiar with are brought in for depth. One year later Arians is removed and Decastro & Adams are pick 1-2. I can blame Arians when Koogs arrived and give Arians no credit after. It wasn't a secret what transpired when Zierlien was removed and Koogs hired. Arians was on the hotseat because of the OL production or should I say lack there of. It was no surprise what happened after Koogs showed he could get rookies on the field early over the vets that Arians & Zerlein has so much confidence in. Confidence in them is evidence by not addressing them.

The in-house evaluation of roster comes from the position coaches & coordinators input to Tomlin. This comes from the coaches in the locker room. The end of season meetings contain discussions on coaches performance and personnel depth issues that need to be addressed in the offseason and draft. The input is also necessary in contract & FA issues. The offseason process involves many personnel evaluation procedures and the in-house has it's chain through coaches. They are all part of the process and that is why they have success. If acoordinator receives concern that a position needs to be addresses from a position coach it filters to the HC from the coordinator. So if you are telling me the reason the OL wasn't addressed early was because Colbert & Tomlin ignored Arians wishes...I think you are a mistaken. The only reason it wasn't addressed is because of the input they received from Arians. Arians info came from Zeirlien. It is all reassured by Zierlien's removal and soon after Arians departure. The drafting of Pouncey & Gilbert and Koogs player development along the OL wasn't a reflection of Arian's brilliance. It was a lack of his ability to maintain a working relationship with players & position coaches and his incompetence before.

You are sitting in the cheapest seats available when it relates to how the process works. I guess you can't see from there. Colbert's draft success is largely in part of position coaches, coordinators, scouts, and the head coach put in these positions to do these jobs. These are the individuals traveling all over the country and working out individuals pre draft. Yes, Colbert & Tomlin make these trips too but they are not involved in all of them. Even the ones they attend, they have other coaches & scouts with them to work. The input of all of these are part of the decision making process. Colbert & Tomlin make the call on draft day but how the board is built comes from information gathered by many sources. Colbert is not Jerry Jones and that is why his record is solid. Do you really think Colbert is the guy who puts his finger on the talent simply by looking at a media source ranking on a position of need? If you say no...Where do you think he gets this information from? It is really comical that you can sit here and think that Colbert's & Tomlin's decisions on draft day is not impacted on anyone's evaluation on personnel.

This is no different than what we all experience everyday. Behind every successful man is talented people in support roles. If a part is broken...It needs to get fixed. Blame goes down the ladder and the praise rises to the Top. We know what part was broken for the last several years and we see what the plan of action was to correct it. So does the blame go at the top or the source? You be the judge. Was it Colbert's fault the Steelers had to spend 4 out of the last 6 top 2 picks in the last three drafts on OL? Wouldn't that go against you praising of Colbert? Colbert's decisions had roots. The roots came from Zierlien & BA before Koogs. After Koogs, we could only speculate what those conversations were but the answers were displayed on the field in Pouncey, Gilbert, and the development of others. Apparently BA wasn't given credit because he was shown the door. You do the math on how all that worked out.


Just on a side note here about draft success rate by position. There was a research project done by position in 2009 from drafts dating back to 1988. They classified the success rate by a player who was in 2 Pro Bowls OR 7 years as a starter OR 125 games played. 1st round OL was a rate of 41%, 2nd round OL was a rate of 31%, and 3rd round was a rate of 16%. The highest success rate for any position in the 1st round was 46%, 2nd round was 40%, and 3rd round was 19%. Needless to say, "addressing" a position in a draft for a starter should be coming out of the first two selections. So dedicating 67% (4 out or 6) of the top of the last three drafts is a very extreme investment. Why the investment had to be made is your choice of reasoning. I know what I saw on Gameday and I know where to point the finger. The Steelers saw the same. You can have your own opinion.

As this relates to Haley in his first year...He apparently followed suit. I'm sure he got his status from Koogs and that information was relayed. It appears they were willing to even give something up for DeCastro. Like I said before, even with a healthy Starks on this roster...Adams still would have been selected. It wouldn't have been because they "fell in love with him" because he begged them to give him a chance. That didn't make him a "special person" on a personal level and they wanted a guy like that on the team. The business side of this team would not have aloud it for the risk involved. It was because of what the talent level that was along the OL on the roster. The investment of 1-2 on the OL with the risk involved on Adams is just south of the word desperation. The fact that they were still there at those picks is something north of a miracle. Who you want to blame for the Steelers being in that position is up to you.

hawaiiansteel
05-21-2012, 03:33 PM
Steelers take drastic measures to turn over O-line, protect Big Ben

By Len Pasquarelli | The Sports Xchange/CBSSports.com
Sunday May 20, 2012

http://sports.cbsimg.net/u/photos/football/nfl/img19105093.jpg

The Steelers are building a young O-line around 2010 first-rounder Maurkice Pouncey. (US Presswire)

With quarterback Ben Roethlisberger now 30, and the team's most valuable player sacked an average of 43.5 times over the past six seasons -- including 40 or more sacks in all but one of those campaigns, and coming off an ankle injury last year -- Pittsburgh has drastically retooled its blocking unit.

It's not often that a perennial playoff team like the Pittsburgh Steelers so dramatically revamps its offensive line in such a short period of time. But, then again, it's not often that an annual postseason contender has such a dire area of need yet is able to get by with an obviously deficient unit.

Coach Mike Tomlin and general manager Kevin Colbert contend the remaking of the line wasn't necessarily intentional, and that circumstances and the club's draft board essentially dictated some of the moves since 2010. But it's notable that, in the past three drafts, the Steelers have selected four players now projected to start in 2012. And it's likewise worth mentioning that no other playoff team from 2011 is expected to have more than two line changes this season, and that 10 clubs will have either one or zero alterations.

"Whether it was needed or not, there's been a big shuffle," said two-time Pro Bowl center Maurkice Pouncey, a first-round pick in 2010. "Hopefully, we can all come together pretty quickly."

Quickly also describes the manner in which the club has addressed its line.

The latest move came this week with the revelation that former right tackle Willie Colon, who has played only one game the past two seasons because of injuries, will switch to left guard. While Colon was considered the team's best lineman before injuries curtailed his 2010 and 2011 campaigns, there was always discussion of him moving to guard, and the switch essentially puts the rest of the ducks in a row.

Two rookies, first-rounder David DeCastro and No. 2 pick Mike Adams, are slated to start at right guard and left tackle respectively. The choice of Adams, who some felt had first-round credentials before he tested positive for marijuana at the combine, negates the move of second-year right tackle Marcus Gilbert to the left side. And it means Pittsburgh will start a quintet in which four of the players are 24 or younger. Only Colon, 29, is older.

The shuffle also means that Pittsburgh could start a line that totals only 44 starts over the past two seasons. But in 2011, resourceful line coach Sean Kugler was forced to use a league-high 21 combinations. And while the breaking-in period could present some difficulties, the Steelers feel that in the long run the changes will be well worth it, and will better protect Roethlisberger.

Said Colon, who seemingly has embraced the change: "If things work out, we could be good for a while."

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/story/19103521/steelers-take-drastic-measures-to-turn-over-oline-protect-big-ben

Captain Lemming
05-22-2012, 10:48 AM
I showed you who the Steelers drafted with the Arians & Zierlein. The didn't draft any OL in the 1st or 2nd.

We went defense in all but one season when Z was line coach. You can blame Arians only for one season (2008 ) the only season during his tenure when we took offensive players who were not linemen in the first or second round. You cant blame him during seasons when D LeBeau got his way. To thus imply that Arians preferred picking linebackers and dlinemen over getting players on his side of the ball is ridiculous and you know it. That is why you wont address it. You cant blame him when Colbert and Tomlin have the job of deciding team needs and the choosingif the priorities are on offense or defense. To credit Koogs for our drafts is ridiculous. Any position coach is gonna lobby for his position. Do you think Lake would have wanted a crack at a premium pick for the secondary rather than Koogs getting the elite talent? The same goes for any position coach.

BN I get what you are saying about coordinators and position coaches contributions. But I am not going to blame D Lebeau for our drafting Sweed and Arians aint the voice leading the charge in selecting our LBers. If you want to blame Arians for our draft look at offensive players taken. Oline has been top priority.
Before Koogs got here our first offensive player the year before was oline. Dont blame Arians for the fact that we went with defense first and had no second round pick.

You imply that comments by Z shows that he was content with our oline. Our Dline coach called our Dline "the best in NFL history" then we proceed to draft Heyward. What a coach says in praising his players means squat, they all would love to have more talent.

Tomlin and Colbelt weigh team needs and decides who gets the elite talent based on their assessment of team needs. BPA also plays a role in who gets drafted. Typically we dont reach for a team need.

Let me ask you one last question. If not oline, what specific unit has Arians shown to be of greatest need based on our draft record during his time as a Steeler?


Koogs had Pouncey ready to play day 1

Yes he is a great position coach and that is what position coaches do.


Just on a side note here about draft success rate by position. There was a research project done by position in 2009 from drafts dating back to 1988. They classified the success rate by a player who was in 2 Pro Bowls OR 7 years as a starter OR 125 games played. 1st round OL was a rate of 41%, 2nd round OL was a rate of 31%, and 3rd round was a rate of 16%. The highest success rate for any position in the 1st round was 46%, 2nd round was 40%, and 3rd round was 19%. Needless to say, "addressing" a position in a draft for a starter should be coming out of the first two selections. So dedicating 67% (4 out or 6) of the top of the last three drafts is a very extreme investment. Why the investment had to be made is your choice of reasoning. I know what I saw on Gameday and I know where to point the finger. The Steelers saw the same. You can have your own opinion.

I agree completely. And save for ONE SEASON - EVERY SINGLE FIRST OR SECOND ROUND CHOICE that BA "might" have had a say in went to the oline. You cannot blame him when defense is given the priority. To think that BA would not be delighted with these top two picks and that Haley was the difference is just silly.

JUST-PLAIN-NASTY
05-22-2012, 12:28 PM
I never implied that a coach on the other side of the ball was responsible for a pick....But lack there of is a fact. For the drafts no OL in first 2 picks with Z & Arians is indication of how they felt about the roster. If the coaches were unhappy or concerned with the position they would have been addressed. Draft...FA...Whatever way necessary IF it was a concern. Do you really think Colbert handcuffed BA by not addressing a need if he ask for it? No...Didn't happen because he didn't express a need. I never ANYWHERE said Arians preferred picking defense so either you don't comprehend or stop mumbling things to make what you type sound better in your mind. I'm not addressing you thought you suggested because I never said that. It is your thought. You just don't understand how it all works and that makes it difficult for you to follow. At no point did I say DL was responsible for drafting Sweed...What kind of moronic bull$hit is that? That came out of your mouth! I guess I could expect that. If a position coach or coordinator expresses a need it will get addressed. Sweed is a perfect example. I thank you. That is how it works. Big WR was something BB & Arians wanted. It was adressed. Again, the pick isn't Arians fault if it didn't pan out. But it was addressed. Again, do you think Colbert & Tomlin chose to ignore Arians wished for 3 years while Z was the OL coach?

DL didn't get his way. He knew the positions on the roster were aging. Doesn't matter if it was at the top of its game...It needed to be addressed. Do you think that was part of the converstaion pre-draft? All starters over 30? Maybe the light goes on for you. I blame Arians for NOT addressing the OL. If he would have lobbied for it for Z it would have been addressed. If there was a sense of urgency they could have moved up for someone or addressed in FA. There wasn't any urgency...All we heard was they were happy with what they had. They felt they could grow into solid contributors. Well they never did. Zeirlien gets fired and Koogs is hired. The first two drafts while Koogs is here the Steelers take 2 OL in the first two rounds. Did I say Koogs made that pick? No....But it must be hard for you to follow. Koogs evaluation of the talent on the roster led to two OL early the next two years. The quality of the OL play has been no secret. BA removed this year and the Steelers go OL with their first two picks. Did the grades of these players have something to do with the picks? Absolutely! But the quality of the players on the roster had alot to do with the Steelers running over people to get to the podium each time. At no point did I say BA would not have been happy with these picks. BA is no longer here and part of the reason why the Steelers and the fans are so excited about these picks is the back-ups that he & Z fielded for many years have been replaced. BA gets ZERO credit for Pouncey or Gilbert too. Hand was already forced at that point and that is why Koogs was brought in.

There is a cause and effect to what transpired that started when BA & Z teamed up again. It was too little too late after Koogs arrived for BA. Who do you think the Steelers frown on when Koogs comes in here and has the success he has after Z is fired? Who do you NOT give credit to for Koogs success with the OL since he came here? Arians for both. He was the OC. And guess what...BA was fired. Any relation or pure coincidence? Well Koogs is still here and both BA & Z are gone. You do the math. Wasn't the only reason BA was fired but the OL development was part of it. To sit here and say that Tomlin & Colbert would not have given him better players to do his job "IF" he asked for them is ridiculous.

Your question: "If not oline, what specific unit has Arians shown to be of greatest need based on our draft record during his time as a Steeler?" He showed no need for any specific position early. But he didn't show any need for OL either. Again, I give BA no credit for Pouncey or Gilbert. None what so ever. While BA & Zerlien were together, the Steelers drafted ZERO OL in the first two rounds of the draft. Arguments can be made of how the draft fell or they wanted to trade up in certain drafts. So even if you discount that. How are you going to sit here and say that his OL coach gets fired and that year the replacement is brought in the Steelers draft an OL in the 1st and the next they draft an OL in the 2nd and that BA was a factor in it? The next year he gets fired and they draft 2 more OL with picks 1 & 2. Look at that scenario. It looks more like "lack of" resulted in the picks and his departure than giving him credit for it. Add in the fact the Steelers were rumored to be willing to move up for DecAstro SHOWS the sense of urgency. So where did that urgency come form when BA wasn't in the building and the Steelers just spent a 1 & 2 the previous two years on OL? It is called "housecleaning". BA created a mess on the OL with Z. Koogs has been sweeping up the mess since he got here and Haley grabbed a broom when he came through the door.

My bread crumbs lead me to believe the Steelers were unhappy with how BA handled the OL among other things bigger & smaller. That led to the Steelers firing Z and bringing in Koogs and ultimately moving on without BA. The injection of OL early the last three years supports what I hear. We see it differently. So be it.

Captain Lemming
05-22-2012, 02:50 PM
I never implied that a coach on the other side of the ball was responsible for a pick....But lack there of is a fact. For the drafts no OL in first 2 picks with Z & Arians is indication of how they felt about the roster. If the coaches were unhappy or concerned with the position they would have been addressed.

Not if Colbert and Tomlin feel defense are higher priorities. BTW our second pick in 09 WAS a lineman. First pick was defense (we had no second round pick is that on BA too). Z and Arians priority was Oline and we drafted oline.


I never ANYWHERE said Arians preferred picking defense so either you don't comprehend or stop mumbling things to make what you type sound better in your mind.

When you blame BA for not addressing the Oline when we draft defense you imply that it is his call to make. For all we know BA wanted to take Joe Staley in the first but DL wanted a LBer. You can only choose one. You can bet that BA wants to use ONE of those two on offense. We have no idea what happens if we go offense. BAs preference on offense was not heard whatever it was. That is my point, Colbert and Tomlin had LBer as a priority over ANY available offensive player in the first and second. Had we drafted a skill player instead fine put it on BA. We went defense so we cant blame him.

BN please inform us of who was BA's choice had he been able to take an offensive player in the first? When you can answer that, then tell us that it is his fault it wasnt oline.


At no point did I say DL was responsible for drafting Sweed...What kind of moronic bull$hit is that?
I know you never said that. I was illustrating how ludicrous your argument is. If you blame BA when we draft a LBer instead of oline, then by that standard we can blame DL if our middle LBer play suffers and Hightower is a rookie probowler. DL might have wanted a LBer but his bosses rightly see DeCastro as a far better pick. Whatever DL wanted was trumped by oline needs. Really the point is not that hard to grasp. Premium draft picks in this draft went to offensive needs, regardless of what DL wanted on defense.


DL didn't get his way. He knew the positions on the roster were aging. Doesn't matter if it was at the top of its game...It needed to be addressed. Do you think that was part of the converstaion pre-draft? All starters over 30? Maybe the light goes on for you. I blame Arians for NOT addressing the OL.

You mean the situation we have RIGHT NOW at safety? Heck the secondary is 3 old guys and a possible scrub youngster. Do you blame DL because our aging secondary was not addressed? Maybe he argued passionately to address the secondary. Those with a broader POV saw oline as the priority. If the secondary falls apart dues to injuries AGAIN is that on DL?

JUST-PLAIN-NASTY
05-23-2012, 09:19 AM
Childishly trying to insinuate who I would project blame on doesn't make you look any more intelligent. My football knowledge is strong and by being condensending it makes you look very inferior and threatened. You are above that. I have read you.

To correct you again, the Steelers traded away their pick in 2009. If there was any sense or urgency the Steelers could have moved up in the draft or addressed the issues in FA. Can you honestly tell me under the BA & Z term you didn't question the OL? You should listen, read, and watch more about the Steelers and you would know more things internally. It is evident you missed alot of things because it isn't adding up for you. You missed alot of information following these drafts where everyone questioned why the OL wasn't addressed and why OL wasn't looked at in FA. You missed the words coming out of Zeirlien and Arians mouth.

Your assumptions were wrong and you are corrected. Perhaps I assumed you would understand and should have been more descriptive. You don't have to tell me how the draft process works. I am very informed on the practices in an organization. What I do find comical is you continue to say it wasn't BA call but you say DL got what he wanted. It doesn't work one way or the other whatever favors your argument. There is a structure in place in an organization. Colbert doesn't look at a piece of paper and make decisions based on what he solely feels. His decisions are made based upon the input from the people in the organization working for them. From draft picks to FA and contracts. Colbert untimately makes the final call but that call is the product of what the structure in the organization concluded. The successful organizations pipeline reaches all the way down. You can name examples of the teams that don't utilize this. You could also produce the examples of teams in history that where unsuccessful of fielding coach/GMs and Owners who try to put their finger prints on the sideline. It doesn't work because the football decisions need to be made by the people going over the X's & O's and interact with the players daily. That informations filters up. You ask anyone about Colbert and they will tell you this is part of his recipe for success over the years. His personnel decisions are fueled on input from people working in the organization. That includes the draft. Just like I said how you say DL get what he wants. If BA wanted an OL based on what he thought was on the roster...Colbert would have got him what he needed.


Over and over again we heard how the Steelers were satisfied with what was on the roster at OL when BA & Z where together after the draft or through FA. So are you saying BA & Z asked for help and Colbert ignored them? Colbert sabatoged both of them in their job performance? Firing Z and BA was just a way of someone taking the blame for Colbert's mistakes? It doesn't work like that. You tell me why they were both shown the door. It wasn't because of BB NON development, Lack of RB performance, Lack of WR & TE production, or the teams inability to score points and win championships or get to the big game. Anything you can put your finger on has "OL" in the title. Z couldn't develop what he had. Who's fault is it he didn't have better? You trying to put that on Colbert? If the OL was so poor why wasn't any help given? I can't help you put two & two together. There is a list of reasons you could put here. Z being fired cements them. Who was Z's boss through this? I guess you didn't see the trend of trying for field mid to low round draft choices or UDFA and attempt to groom them into starters. WHo's philosophy was that? BA & Z are both gone. Z is fired and Pouncey & Gilbert enter the picture. BA is fired and DeCastro & Adams enter the picture this year. Did Colbert change his philosophy on OL? No. They got a good OL coach who could develop and evaluate what he had & passed that on. BA wasn't happy with the Z firing. So did BA road block from his position? I can't say for sure and that kind of info won't come out of the Steelers. But losing your OL coach and then losing your job soon after has legs. BA player-coach relationship has always been an issue so one could assume that BA judgment of his OL talent was clouded.

You could believe whatever angle you want. Z & BA didn't get fired because of Colbert's ignorance. They got fired for their own.

feltdizz
05-23-2012, 09:32 AM
I wish we could apply that to the defense

back ups are back ups for a reason.

feltdizz
05-23-2012, 09:43 AM
Lets not get carried away with the "HALEY EFFECT" here. It is no surprise that the success of Pouncey and Gilbert as rookies has led to greater comfort in rookie lineman today. Heck, we Do you really think Haley was the reason we picked what are easily the best players on the board? We don't pick Decasto and Adams save for Haley? Really? DeCastro was a nobrainer. Adams addressed Colbert Tomlin and Rooney to make a case and sold THEM on him. We dumped Kemo already and let Max go for being fat last year. I see no undue loyalty or playing favorites before Haley arrived.

True.. and maybe this draft played out perfectly but it sure seems like we had "confidence" in some scrub OL play these last few years. I'm not saying we didn't draft some big uglies but we fielded some below average OL for a few years.

Captain Lemming
05-24-2012, 11:58 AM
Can you honestly tell me under the BA & Z term you didn't question the OL? You should listen, read, and watch more about the Steelers and you would know more things internally. It is evident you missed alot of things because it isn't adding up for you. You missed alot of information following these drafts where everyone questioned why the OL wasn't addressed and why OL wasn't looked at in FA. You missed the words coming out of Zeirlien and Arians mouth.

Dude I have been for drafting oline for YEARS. I was frustrted every time we went Dline first. I do not believe our scheme requires 1st rounders at D-end we have done fine without them. The ONLY area that I differ is who is to blame. Looking at the ENTIRE TEAM Colbert and Tomlin saw other priorities.


Your assumptions were wrong and you are corrected.

Is that so? Lets see below


Perhaps I assumed you would understand and should have been more descriptive.

Oh yes wise one I am just not bright enough to "get it"


I am very informed on the practices in an organization.

Yes you are!


What I do find comical is you continue to say it wasn't BA call but you say DL got what he wanted. It doesn't work one way or the other whatever favors your argument. There is a structure in place in an organization. Colbert doesn't look at a piece of paper and make decisions based on what he solely feels. His decisions are made based upon the input from the people in the organization working for them. From draft picks to FA and contracts. Colbert untimately makes the final call but that call is the product of what the structure in the organization concluded. The successful organizations pipeline reaches all the way down. You can name examples of the teams that don't utilize this. You could also produce the examples of teams in history that where unsuccessful of fielding coach/GMs and Owners who try to put their finger prints on the sideline. It doesn't work because the football decisions need to be made by the people going over the X's & O's and interact with the players daily. That informations filters up. You ask anyone about Colbert and they will tell you this is part of his recipe for success over the years. His personnel decisions are fueled on input from people working in the organization.

Wow that is sure a lot of fancy words mister. I spoke of assistant coaches and position coaches contributions too but it took me half a sentence. Thank you for sharing it in such vivid detail. In the end though Colbert and Tomlin take those comments into consideration and make the call based on their perception of overall team needs.


Over and over again we heard how the Steelers were satisfied with what was on the roster at OL when BA & Z where together after the draft or through FA. So are you saying BA & Z asked for help and Colbert ignored them?

Ummm, in a word YES that is EXACTLY what I am saying. Example below:

By Jim Wexell
SteelCityInsider.com
Posted Apr 9, 2007


The Steelers are placing a heavy emphasis on front-seven defenders this draft season, but they’re not blind. They understand they may have a problem brewing on the offensive line and are looking hard at a left tackle who projects to be drafted in the bottom third of the first round.


Not that the Steelers would draft Central Michigan left tackle Joe Staley at pick 15, but according to a source, offensive line coach Larry Zierlein “loves” Staley and is trying to convince the personnel department to consider him among a pool of players they’d draft in a trade down of “seven or eight spots” in the round.





Colbert sabatoged both of them in their job performance? Firing Z and BA was just a way of someone taking the blame for Colbert's mistakes? It doesn't work like that. You tell me why they were both shown the door.


They were fired because they are not very good at what coaches do. They are not good coaches. Not exactly rocket science.


If the OL was so poor why wasn't any help given? I can't help you put two & two together.

That my friend is clear. I'll give it a shot. The personnel people did not put a priority on offensive line until it was already really bad. No they are making up for it in the last few drafts. Above is the proof that Z begged us to take a tackle DURING HIS VERY FIRST YEAR. They chose not to listen

My case is made.


You could believe whatever angle you want. Z & BA didn't get fired because of Colbert's ignorance. They got fired for their own.

They got fired because they are not good COACHES. That is their job and they are not good at it. It is really that simple.

JUST-PLAIN-NASTY
05-25-2012, 10:21 AM
By Jim Wexell
SteelCityInsider.com
Posted Apr 9, 2007


The Steelers are placing a heavy emphasis on front-seven defenders this draft season, but they’re not blind. They understand they may have a problem brewing on the offensive line and are looking hard at a left tackle who projects to be drafted in the bottom third of the first round.


Not that the Steelers would draft Central Michigan left tackle Joe Staley at pick 15, but according to a source, offensive line coach Larry Zierlein “loves” Staley and is trying to convince the personnel department to consider him among a pool of players they’d draft in a trade down of “seven or eight spots” in the round.




I would love to read that full article. Please post link. I would love to see the thought process since Smith was 28 coming of 16 starts in 2006 with 3 years left on the deal and Colon took over starting at RT for Starks that year. Smith's back injury happened at the end of 2007 when Starks took over for good.

All that work and you hurt your argument and proved mine. Preciate Dat! :D

"The personnel people did not put a priority on offensive line until it was already really bad." You do realize "personnel people" are the coaches too right. They are the ones responsible for evaluating what they have on the roster and what they believe they could make out of them. It is their responsibility to develop the young players and make sure the starters play above the line. So I agree...Z & BA failed to put priority on offensive line until it was already really bad.

"Colbert and Tomlin take those comments into consideration and make the call based on their perception of overall team needs" Agree again. You are making this so easy. Apparently Z & BA had confidence in what they had.

"They got fired because they are not good COACHES. That is their job and they are not good at it." Thank you. Was that so hard? Nice to see you came around. Z couldn't develop his draft choices and his players regressed. BA did nothing to help himself in this situation. Since Z was under him and he allowed the free fall...Tomlin & Colbert removed Z for him.

How much reasoning did your argument have when the Steelers removed the OL & OC over the past two season? It was like saying a criminal is innocent after he was accused, charged, went to trial, & convicted. I assume you know the responsibilities of all the coaches up the ladder. You also seem to know alot about how the Steelers operate. I really find it hard to believe you don't feel that Z & BA had some influence on why the Steelers didn't feel the OL needed to be addressed before Z was fired. Colbert seems to be a smart guy. We will never know from the "horse's mouth". So we don't continue to waste each others time arguing about people not here...Good show.

RuthlessBurgher
05-25-2012, 12:16 PM
Am I the only one who read this 4 page thread and still have no idea whatsoever about what the Captain and JPN are arguing about? Literally, I have no clue. Is it just me?

Slapstick
05-25-2012, 12:21 PM
The arguments have evolved, but, IIUC, JPN said that Arians and Zierlein sucked and were fired partially because the O-Line had no talent...

Lem responded that Arians and Zierlein had no talent to work with...

JPN explained how he thought that both A and Z were partially to blame for that lack of talent...

And then it went downhill...but remained suprisingly civil...

JUST-PLAIN-NASTY
05-25-2012, 12:47 PM
The arguments have evolved, but, IIUC, JPN said that Arians and Zierlein sucked and were fired partially because the O-Line had no talent...

Lem responded that Arians and Zierlein had no talent to work with...

JPN explained how he thought that both A and Z were partially to blame for that lack of talent...

And then it went downhill...but remained suprisingly civil...

Wow Slapstick...Everything we typed and that summation is 100% accurate. We should have made you the editor for that argument...Would have saved us alot of time. ;) Ruthless (Very impressive you stuck through all of Page 4) picked up on what I noticed after I looked at our last two posts. We seem to be arguing to be arguing. :D So I'm calling the game on stupidity!

steelblood
05-25-2012, 01:26 PM
I like eggs.

Captain Lemming
05-25-2012, 01:39 PM
I would love to read that full article. Please post link.

Here ya go there is a cool tool for this kinda stuff:

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=By+Jim+Wexell+ SteelCityInsider.com+Date%3A+"Apr+9%2C+2007" (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=By+Jim+Wexell+ SteelCityInsider.com+Date%3A+)


I would love to see the thought process since Smith was 28 coming of 16 starts in 2006 with 3 years left on the deal and Colon took over starting at RT for Starks that year. Smith's back injury happened at the end of 2007 when Starks took over for good.

It is not that hard. Z who by the way personally attended the workout was raving about the dude. The article says that there was concern about the position regardless of what you say above. Amazingly you on one hand "blame" Z and Arians for not drafting oline when they arrived, then you imply that there is no way the could have saw a need. Truth is they "anticipated" a need and Z pushed for us to get Staley and lost out to defensive priorities. JUST AS I HAVE BEEN SAYING ALL ALONG.

Like I said earlier ANY position coach wants to beef up his position. You put WAY too much stock in public statements that are complimentary of the line. It means NOTHING. As I said earlier the Dline coach make the ridiculous assertion that our Dline THE BEST IN NFL HISTORY and we drafted Heyward the next year.


All that work and you hurt your argument and proved mine. Preciate Dat! :D

Wow BN, I am impressed. I thought only Mendy resorted to the "spin move" when trapped. ;)
Your spin puts him to shame.
Of course it rarely works for him, and you my friend cannot escape the truth no matter how you try to spin it.

Your point, A and Z were perfectly fine with the oline and saw no need to spend a first or second on the unit.

You are wrong.


"The personnel people did not put a priority on offensive line until it was already really bad." You do realize "personnel people" are the coaches too right.

Well typically when you say "personnel people" and "coaches" in a discussion, "personnel people" refers to The GM and scouts. Nevertheless, I get your point, the head coach may have a say that is equal to or greater than a GM in personnel decisions. Clearly assistant coaches have a vital role in providing input.
For example LIKE THE INPUT of Z when HE attended the workout and PUSHED for us to draft Staley.


So I agree...Z & BA failed to put priority on offensive line until it was already really bad.

Clearly you are mixing two separate issues. Z had priority on the oline. Proof is in the story I just referenced. THE DECISION MAKERS failed to put priority on the position until it got terrible.
I agree that it was Zs "responsibility to develop the young players and make sure the starters play above the line."

Z certainly was not "FIRED" because he did not suggest that we draft an olineman during his tenure, because HE DID.
They drafted Timmon DESPITE Z wanting to draft Staley.
As I have said all along, the GM and head coach do what they feel need to be done for the overall team needs.
Who we draft in the end is a reflection on them.
If you have a beef with who we drafted, the blame lies with them, not a lowly position coach.



"Colbert and Tomlin take those comments into consideration and make the call based on their perception of overall team needs" Agree again. You are making this so easy. Apparently Z & BA had confidence in what they had.

Arguable the premier DC in the league wants linebackers.
We just lost our star olb Joey Porter, and Harrison was a backup who had yet to break out. The case for LB was STRONG.

The story above shows what the 1st year oline coach wants. He was not listened to because LBer was deemed the priority.


"They got fired because they are not good COACHES. That is their job and they are not good at it." Thank you. Was that so hard? Nice to see you came around.

Oh please.
Read the first words I wrote in my second post on this thread.

"I AM NO FAN OF ARIANS".

Arians is a bad coach. I hate his soft pass happy offense and how he coddled Ben.

I have a long knowledge of Koogs from his days at BSU and love his work as a Steeler. Big upgrade over Z.

But I withhold judgement of Haley until I see what he does as a Steeler.

I am certainly not going to credit him with the oline picks, when we had already been upgrading the position.

Slapstick
05-25-2012, 01:55 PM
And....we're off!!

Captain Lemming
05-25-2012, 02:01 PM
BTW BN, I think you misread my first post as some kind of endorsement of Arians.

My point was about Haley being given premature credit for the draft as though he brought some unique insight to an obvious need.

The comments centered on Haley.

Any OC with our oline would love this draft.

JUST-PLAIN-NASTY
05-25-2012, 03:01 PM
Here ya go there is a cool tool for this kinda stuff:

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=By+Jim+Wexell+ SteelCityInsider.com+Date%3A+"Apr+9%2C+2007" (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=By+Jim+Wexell+ SteelCityInsider.com+Date%3A+)



It is not that hard. Z who by the way personally attended the workout was raving about the dude. The article says that there was concern about the position regardless of what you say above. Amazingly you on one hand "blame" Z and Arians for not drafting oline when they arrived, then you imply that there is no way the could have saw a need. Truth is they "anticipated" a need and Z pushed for us to get Staley and lost out to defensive priorities. JUST AS I HAVE BEEN SAYING ALL ALONG.

Like I said earlier ANY position coach wants to beef up his position. You put WAY too much stock in public statements that are complimentary of the line. It means NOTHING. As I said earlier the Dline coach make the ridiculous assertion that our Dline THE BEST IN NFL HISTORY and we drafted Heyward the next year.



Wow BN, I am impressed. I thought only Mendy resorted to the "spin move" when trapped. ;)
Your spin puts him to shame.
Of course it rarely works for him, and you my friend cannot escape the truth no matter how you try to spin it.

Your point, A and Z were perfectly fine with the oline and saw no need to spend a first or second on the unit.

You are wrong.



Well typically when you say "personnel people" and "coaches" in a discussion, "personnel people" refers to The GM and scouts. Nevertheless, I get your point, the head coach may have a say that is equal to or greater than a GM in personnel decisions. Clearly assistant coaches have a vital role in providing input.
For example LIKE THE INPUT of Z when HE attended the workout and PUSHED for us to draft Staley.



Clearly you are mixing two separate issues. Z had priority on the oline. Proof is in the story I just referenced. THE DECISION MAKERS failed to put priority on the position until it got terrible.
I agree that it was Zs "responsibility to develop the young players and make sure the starters play above the line."

Z certainly was not "FIRED" because he did not suggest that we draft an olineman during his tenure, because HE DID.
They drafted Timmon DESPITE Z wanting to draft Staley.
As I have said all along, the GM and head coach do what they feel need to be done for the overall team needs.
Who we draft in the end is a reflection on them.
If you have a beef with who we drafted, the blame lies with them, not a lowly position coach.




Arguable the premier DC in the league wants linebackers.
We just lost our star olb Joey Porter, and Harrison was a backup who had yet to break out. The case for LB was STRONG.

The story above shows what the 1st year oline coach wants. He was not listened to because LBer was deemed the priority.



Oh please.
Read the first words I wrote in my second post on this thread.

"I AM NO FAN OF ARIANS".

Arians is a bad coach. I hate his soft pass happy offense and how he coddled Ben.

I have a long knowledge of Koogs from his days at BSU and love his work as a Steeler. Big upgrade over Z.

But I withhold judgement of Haley until I see what he does as a Steeler.

I am certainly not going to credit him with the oline picks, when we had already been upgrading the position.

Not wrong on any of it son. Not spinning at all...You made my argument. Z & Arians are responsible for the product they put on the field. You don't want to put any blame on them for below the line OL. Who you blaming...Colbert, Tomlin, or DL? I'm putting it on the interviews with Z & BA during the camps & the contracts handed out. I'm putting on the fact Z & BA were fired over the last two season and the OL play was the biggest deficiency. If it looks like $hit and smells like $hit...Guess what? It is $hit. You should know that.

You can't say DL got what he wanted but BA didn't. Doesn't work like that because it favors your argument. Your article even said they weren't taking Staley at #15...He was viewed as a project. Like I said in my post..The Steelers were set at OT. Smells like smoke. FYI..I did look for the article. No direct link to it...There isn't one in your link either. Posted in a forum. For three years no top OL in the draft or FA OL. If it was an expressed concern, moves would have been made. Koogs comes on and they have addressed every year. They were considering going up to get Mike Pouncey. They were ready to get Decastro. I'm not buying any of your BS. The two clowns didn't know OL talent. Z thought he had something in his guys. Never got it out of them or it was never there to begin with.

JUST-PLAIN-NASTY
05-25-2012, 03:04 PM
BTW BN, I think you misread my first post as some kind of endorsement of Arians.

My point was about Haley being given premature credit for the draft as though he brought some unique insight to an obvious need.

The comments centered on Haley.

Any OC with our oline would love this draft.

Well now you post this. lmfao I did think that. I didn't credit Haley with Decastro & Adams if you read one of my responses. They were a gift that they accepted. I still don't know how it happened. G had to be a pick at 1 or 2. I said the Steelers bought into Haley from day 1 meaning he has the keys. That is clear. I think Koogs evaluation over the past two seasons and his ability to get young OL on the field already had it set in motion. But I do find it hard to believe he wouldn't be pleased or would have wanted OL after evaluating what was here.

DBR96A
05-25-2012, 03:12 PM
The best philosophy for the offensive line is this:

- Starters who have mastered one position
- Backups who are versatile and can be adequate at multiple positions

I think when Bruce Arians and Larry Zierlein stressed versatility among the offensive linemen, what they ended up with were a bunch of guys who were jacks of all positions but masters of none. I'd rather have a starting offensive linemen who only knows how to play one position but plays it well than have him be simply passable at multiple positions.