Tomlin-era bad personnel decisions

[steelz09]

What do you think were the bad personnel decisions so far in the Tomlin-era? This includes drafting, coach selections, keeping players "past their time", cutting players, etc.

Personnally, I think the bad outweighs the good but I think Tomlin is getting a little better particularly w/ the draft and coach selections.

[MeetJoeGreene]

Bad = letting Kuhn Go and keeping that other horrible dude that he had a feeling about. (RB/FB) can't even remember his name.

[RuthlessBurgher]

Bad = letting Kuhn Go and keeping that other horrible dude that he had a feeling about. (RB/FB) can't even remember his name.

Carey Davis?

[MeetJoeGreene]

Carey Davis?
That was it!

[Prowler]

I know I'm going to get blasted for this but I think Lamarr Woodley is a pylon out on the field much too often. I would rather have a player out there who shows up every game and on every play. He's the Willie Parker of the defense who in opinion will be out of the league in a couple of years.

[Shoe]

I know I'm going to get blasted for this but I think Lamarr Woodley is a pylon out on the field much too often. I would rather have a player out there who shows up every game and on every play. He's the Willie Parker of the defense who in opinion will be out of the league in a couple of years.

I won't go that far by any means, but Woodley has a lot to prove to me. He just got paid last off-season, and proceeded to take two months paid vacation time as far as I'm concerned. To me, hamstrings tend to come as a result of putting too much force before the muscle is ready. i.e. If you don't properly prepare your hamstring for game-day workloads, it won't respond. I think he didn't properly prepare, then hurt himself, and cost his team the chance to make it to the Super Bowl.

I guess right now (hindsight being 20/20), I would say drafting those two linemen (Hood and Heyward) in the first round. I hope I am proven wrong... and I understand that we had a need there. (In '09, I wanted Jairus Byrd.) But these two hold a key to our fortunes this year and beyond. Hood's going into his 4th year--time to produce. Time to set that edge like you're supposed, like #91 did for a decade. You can't rely on Hampton anymore. Heyward--sorry buddy, you are getting lumped in with Hood. It's time to grow up fast. We don't need you to be a back-up, with training wheels on. We need you and/or Hood to SEIZE the opportunity, and make an impact.

[RuthlessBurgher]

I'll go with Tomlin letting the cat out of the bag regarding our opinion of Darelle Revis in a pre-draft press conference (so the Jets knew exactly which team that they had to trade up in front of to get him).

[Sugar]

I think literally running the wheels off Willie Parker might not have been the best idea. He could have been spelled a little more, IMO. It would be great to have a guy with that kind of burst as a change of pace back even when he couldn't be the bell cow anymore.

[Chadman]

Are we only mentioning the bad choices? Well, Chadman can pick 2- Larry Zeirlein & Sean Mahan.

The rest are draft choices which are acceptable- not like Tomlin selects these players on his own.

[AkronSteel]

The 2008 Draft was not very good. It was the worst one since 1999 and the worst draft under the Colbert regime. Mendy is really the only stand out and there is questions about him as well, especially now with the injury. He never made the huge impact that we all expected, and if this is his last year in Pittsburgh his biggest play as a Steeler will be his fumble in the Super Bowl. In my opinion, if we go score there that game probably plays out completely different. Mundy is still on the team and is a solid contributor on special teams and sub packages but his last play is what we all remember.

[ramblinjim]

The 2008 Draft was not very good. It was the worst one since 1999 and the worst draft under the Colbert regime. Mendy is really the only stand out and there is questions about him as well, especially now with the injury. He never made the huge impact that we all expected, and if this is his last year in Pittsburgh his biggest play as a Steeler will be his fumble in the Super Bowl. In my opinion, if we go score there that game probably plays out completely different. Mundy is still on the team and is a solid contributor on special teams and sub packages but his last play is what we all remember.

Agreed the 2008 draft doesn't score well long term but man, on draft day the idea of getting arguably the best RB in the draft and getting arguable a top 3 WR in the draft in the first two rounds was impressive. I know there were guys on here saying "Sweed in the first" and I was one that couldn't believe how well the first two rounds played out for us. Gotta love hindsight.

[RuthlessBurgher]

Agreed the 2008 draft doesn't score well long term but man, on draft day the idea of getting arguably the best RB in the draft and getting arguable a top 3 WR in the draft in the first two rounds was impressive. I know there were guys on here saying "Sweed in the first" and I was one that couldn't believe how well the first two rounds played out for us. Gotta love hindsight.

Yup...I was as excited for Mendenhall and Sweed with our first two picks as much as any 2 rounds of the draft that I can remember. Seemed like we were extremely fortunate at the time. Shows how much I know. Too bad...now I can't say that I've yet to meet my match on knowledge of this team. :p

[ikestops85]

Yup...I was as excited for Mendenhall and Sweed with our first two picks as much as any 2 rounds of the draft that I can remember. Seemed like we were extremely fortunate at the time. Shows how much I know. Too bad...now I can't say that I've yet to meet my match on knowledge of this team. :p

Try this place :Boobs

http://www.psehgal.com/plays/MeetYourMatch.jpg

[steelz09]

Yup...I was as excited for Mendenhall and Sweed with our first two picks as much as any 2 rounds of the draft that I can remember. Seemed like we were extremely fortunate at the time. Shows how much I know. Too bad...now I can't say that I've yet to meet my match on knowledge of this team. :p

I completely agree. I thought both Mendenhall and Sweed were going to be beasts.

Back to the topic, here's my list:

1) Revis blunder may have resulted in the reach for Timmons. This wasn't a "bad" decision but seeing Revis in the B&G would have been a scary thought.
2) Letting Kuhn go in favor of our "blocking" TE, David Johnson
3) Larry Z
4) Sean Mahan
5) Bruce Arians - Not "reeling" Arians in.
6) Kraig Urbik - Saw the talent to draft him but either didn't develop the talent and chose our current, older guys, over this younger talent. The result? Starting center for the Bills.
7) Tony Hills - Took a long time to develop but wasn't bad. He showed in preseason that he could backup T and was possibly our best guard late into the preseason. Shortly thereafter, they released him. I'm still trying to figure this one out.
8) Thinking Jonathan Scott could replace Max Starks. HUGE BLUNDER. Max Starks should have received 50% of Tomlin's pay last year because he likely saved the season from being a complete disaster and Ben potentially getting hurt much more than what he already did.
9) Most of all... lack of development in our draft picks. I don't know if this is a coaching issue or a player issue. The Steelers always had players that you knew could replace an "older" player. Not so much anymore.... ILB, S, and NT ring a bell. Historically, I can remember us really needing 1 or 2 positions because of depth or lack of talent. I can't remember a time when I see either a severe lack of talent at certain positions or zero (literally) depth at a position.
10) Overpaying for Kemo
11) Overpaying for Willie Colon.

[feltdizz]

I completely agree. I thought both Mendenhall and Sweed were going to be beasts.

Back to the topic, here's my list:

1) Revis blunder may have resulted in the reach for Timmons. This wasn't a "bad" decision but seeing Revis in the B&G would have been a scary thought.
2) Letting Kuhn go in favor of our "blocking" TE, David Johnson
3) Larry Z
4) Sean Mahan
5) Bruce Arians - Not "reeling" Arians in.
6) Kraig Urbik - Saw the talent to draft him but either didn't develop the talent and chose our current, older guys, over this younger talent. The result? Starting center for the Bills.
7) Tony Hills - Took a long time to develop but wasn't bad. He showed in preseason that he could backup T and was possibly our best guard late into the preseason. Shortly thereafter, they released him. I'm still trying to figure this one out.
8) Thinking Jonathan Scott could replace Max Starks. HUGE BLUNDER. Max Starks should have received 50% of Tomlin's pay last year because he likely saved the season from being a complete disaster and Ben potentially getting hurt much more than what he already did.
9) Most of all... lack of development in our draft picks. I don't know if this is a coaching issue or a player issue. The Steelers always had players that you knew could replace an "older" player. Not so much anymore.... ILB, S, and NT ring a bell. Historically, I can remember us really needing 1 or 2 positions because of depth or lack of talent. I can't remember a time when I see either a severe lack of talent at certain positions or zero (literally) depth at a position.
10) Overpaying for Kemo
11) Overpaying for Willie Colon.

A lot of those decisions are made by the FO. I'm not saying Tomlin isn't partially responsible but he doesn't sign the checks. Half the people you mentioned weren't that good and just because they are playing on other teams it doesn't mean we missed on them.

Funny thing is the first 2 or 3 years Tomlin was HC people kept saying he was a figurehead and wasn't responsible for the teams success... but a few years later people go back and blame him for every move made the first 2 or 3 years.

I think Tomlin deserves blame for BA (not reigning him in), Larry Z and the DB coach.....

[Ghost]

I understand he's "the man" and final decisions rest on him, but he's got to be able to rely on his coaches - O-line and O-coordinator when they come to him and tell him to cut Urbik and Hills or keep Scott over Starks. Those coaches are paid big bucks as well and are supossed to be the experts in their area. When the o-line coach says, "this guy can't block" the head coach probably takes him at his word. Now if that becomes a pattern, then it would be on Tomlin to get a new coach who knows what he's doing.

[Mister Pittsburgh]

I was never a fan of taking mendenhall in the first and thought Ray Rice fit our team better. Also, taking Worilds over Sean Lee is all Tomlin as he overrode our draft board.

[Chadman]

I was never a fan of taking mendenhall in the first and thought Ray Rice fit our team better. Also, taking Worilds over Sean Lee is all Tomlin as he overrode our draft board.

You may very well be right- but where did you get that information that Tomlin overrode the draft board??

[RuthlessBurgher]

You may very well be right- but where did you get that information that Tomlin overrode the draft board??

Someone said it on a message board! It must be true!!! ;)

[Mister Pittsburgh]

http://old.post-gazette.com/pg/10120/1054423-66.stm


Penn State linebacker Sean Lee, who went to Upper St. Clair High School, appeared to be the player the Steelers were targeting in the second round after selecting Florida center Maurkice Pouncey with the 18th overall pick. They had a first-round grade on Lee and thought he fit the way they played better than any linebacker in the draft.

But, the Steelers did not think Lee would be available when it came their turn.

When he was, it seemed like an obvious choice. But coach Mike Tomlin really liked Worilds, an undersized defensive end in college who fit nicely as a disruptive outside linebacker in a 3-4 defense -- something the Steelers were lacking behind James Harrison and LaMarr Woodley.

What's more, the return of Larry Foote in free agency gave the Steelers four inside linebackers, along with James Farrior, Lawrence Timmons and Keyaron Fox. Even though Farrior is 35, the need for depth was more dire on the outside, not inside.

So they passed on Lee and selected Worilds.

[steelz09]

http://old.post-gazette.com/pg/10120/1054423-66.stm


Penn State linebacker Sean Lee, who went to Upper St. Clair High School, appeared to be the player the Steelers were targeting in the second round after selecting Florida center Maurkice Pouncey with the 18th overall pick. They had a first-round grade on Lee and thought he fit the way they played better than any linebacker in the draft.

But, the Steelers did not think Lee would be available when it came their turn.

When he was, it seemed like an obvious choice. But coach Mike Tomlin really liked Worilds, an undersized defensive end in college who fit nicely as a disruptive outside linebacker in a 3-4 defense -- something the Steelers were lacking behind James Harrison and LaMarr Woodley.

What's more, the return of Larry Foote in free agency gave the Steelers four inside linebackers, along with James Farrior, Lawrence Timmons and Keyaron Fox. Even though Farrior is 35, the need for depth was more dire on the outside, not inside.

So they passed on Lee and selected Worilds.

Yikes... let's add this one to the list.

[Mister Pittsburgh]

BTW, we were not lacking in depth at OLB at the time. Timmons was drafted to play OLB.

[Sugar]

BTW, we were not lacking in depth at OLB at the time. Timmons was drafted to play OLB.

He was? Are you sure?

[Mister Pittsburgh]

Yes.

Coach Mike Tomlin called Timmons "an outside linebacker who is capable of playing off the line of scrimmage ... on the tight end, has pass rush capabilities." He also has "the RH factor: He is a runner and a hitter and he is a Pittsburgh Steeler."


Tomlin also said firmly "we're a 3-4 team" and "he's a right outside linebacker."

http://old.post-gazette.com/pg/07119/781991-66.stm

[pfelix73]

What do you think were the bad personnel decisions so far in the Tomlin-era? This includes drafting, coach selections, keeping players "past their time", cutting players, etc.

Personnally, I think the bad outweighs the good but I think Tomlin is getting a little better particularly w/ the draft and coach selections.

Well, to be honest, its been said many times before that Colbert is the main man in the draft. Sure Tomlin and the coaching staff are a part of it, obviously, but early on in Tomlin's career, I would put the blame or praise on Colbert and not Tomlin. Coaching staff wise- he hired some losers over the years. Zierlein was one that comes to mind.

[Mister Pittsburgh]

Well, to be honest, its been said many times before that Colbert is the main man in the draft. Sure Tomlin and the coaching staff are a part of it, obviously, but early on in Tomlin's career, I would put the blame or praise on Colbert and not Tomlin. Coaching staff wise- he hired some losers over the years. Zierlein was one that comes to mind.

Not sure I agree. I think Tomlin came in and immediately started forming his team as he wanted it. I think he made the call to axe Porter as he was well aware Porter was the leader of the pack & didn't want any other voice to compete with. We dumped Porter for nothing in return & the guy went on to lead the league in sacks.

[ikestops85]

Not sure I agree. I think Tomlin came in and immediately started forming his team as he wanted it. I think he made the call to axe Porter as he was well aware Porter was the leader of the pack & didn't want any other voice to compete with. We dumped Porter for nothing in return & the guy went on to lead the league in sacks.

Porter had 1 good year after we got rid of him ... his 2nd year in Miami. He would never have been worth the money he was asking for. That was a great personnel decision in my book.

[Djfan]

Porter had 1 good year after we got rid of him ... his 2nd year in Miami. He would never have been worth the money he was asking for. That was a great personnel decision in my book.

I agree, although I did have fears that he would end up his career as Woodson did. That one still sucks.

[steelz09]

Yes.

Coach Mike Tomlin called Timmons "an outside linebacker who is capable of playing off the line of scrimmage ... on the tight end, has pass rush capabilities." He also has "the RH factor: He is a runner and a hitter and he is a Pittsburgh Steeler."


Tomlin also said firmly "we're a 3-4 team" and "he's a right outside linebacker."

http://old.post-gazette.com/pg/07119/781991-66.stm

Good thing Tomlin wasn't hired for his judge of 3-4 OLB skills.

[BURGH86STEEL]

Good thing Tomlin wasn't hired for his judge of 3-4 OLB skills.

I believe they drafted Timmons with the idea of placing him at OLB. No one could account for Harrison becoming one of the best OLB in the league. The coaches moved to plan B to get Timmons on the field. I don't believe one statement or judgement should sum up an individuals assessment skills. The team drafted a pretty good OLB in Woodley with Tomlin as HC.

[Oviedo]

I believe they drafted Timmons with the idea of placing him at OLB. No one could account for Harrison becoming one of the best OLB in the league. The coaches moved to plan B to get Timmons on the field. I don't believe one statement or judgement should sum up an individuals assessment skills. The team drafted a pretty good OLB in Woodley with Tomlin as HC.

Why provide a rational explanation when the intent is to criticize Tomlin. Harrison was a complete unknown on how he would perform as a starter when we drafted Timmons. Also, I still believe it was far from a done deal that we were sticking with the 3-4 when Tomlin first took over. Everything that was said about Timmons as an OLB was a comparison to Derrick Brooks who played outside in the 4-3. Timmons was never compared to a 3-4 OLB.

I think that once Tomlin got to see what he had and how he could sustain the 3-4 it became more of where to fit Timmons in, but I believe to this day that the reason the took Timmons was because Tomlin was seriously considering the switch to the 4-3 he knew so well but that was overtaken by events.

[SteelCrazy]

1. Keeping Bru Bru Bru Bru.....I cant even say it, but keeping him too long as our OC.
2. The Revis Blunder
3. I think sometimes his confidence is a weakness...Translation - He makes decisions sometimes that arent the best at the time, but is too stubborn to admit to himself that it may be wrong.

I'm starting to feel a little like Sigmund Freud.

[phillyesq]

I'll go with Tomlin letting the cat out of the bag regarding our opinion of Darelle Revis in a pre-draft press conference (so the Jets knew exactly which team that they had to trade up in front of to get him).

Interetingly, Wexell said on twitter recently that Revis would not have been the pick even if he was there. Maybe the interest in Revis was a decoy?

[RuthlessBurgher]

Good thing Tomlin wasn't hired for his judge of 3-4 OLB skills.

Harrison was finally given a chance to start under Tomlin, and Woodley was brought in under Tomlin.

[pfelix73]

Not sure I agree. I think Tomlin came in and immediately started forming his team as he wanted it. I think he made the call to axe Porter as he was well aware Porter was the leader of the pack & didn't want any other voice to compete with. We dumped Porter for nothing in return & the guy went on to lead the league in sacks.

You may not agree, but I think you would be wrong. Did you read Lance Zierlien's article that was posted on here? He's the son of our old OL coach, and even though I never liked Zierlien as an OL coach, his son would know a few things about how they run the team- considering he interviewed his dad.....

Here's a quote from the article.

"The Steelers do care about off-the-field character and the Rooneys will either drop players down the list or remove players entirely based on character issues. Mike Tomlin will work with Kevin Colbert in terms of stacking the board, but it is my understanding that Colbert runs the show."

Lance isn't the only one who I've heard this from. Local radio as well, but who would know best? An old coach under Tomlin himself has said this...Anyway...I'm sure they all have their input, but Colbert runs the show...

[Mister Pittsburgh]

Porter had 1 good year after we got rid of him ... his 2nd year in Miami. He would never have been worth the money he was asking for. That was a great personnel decision in my book.

He had one year left on his contract at the time of being released...so what is the point of your comment? You think they knew Woodley would start year one 2 weeks after drafting him, so cut Porter? That is a great personel decision....cut your vet LB with a year left on his current contract.

[Mister Pittsburgh]

You may not agree, but I think you would be wrong. Did you read Lance Zierlien's article that was posted on here? He's the son of our old OL coach, and even though I never liked Zierlien as an OL coach, his son would know a few things about how they run the team- considering he interviewed his dad.....

Here's a quote from the article.

"The Steelers do care about off-the-field character and the Rooneys will either drop players down the list or remove players entirely based on character issues. Mike Tomlin will work with Kevin Colbert in terms of stacking the board, but it is my understanding that Colbert runs the show."

Lance isn't the only one who I've heard this from. Local radio as well, but who would know best? An old coach under Tomlin himself has said this...Anyway...I'm sure they all have their input, but Colbert runs the show...

Did you not read the article I posted up stating Tomlin made the call on passing up Lee for Worilds and overrode our draft board? That is what leads me to not agree with your previous statement.....

[BURGH86STEEL]

People will continue to blame Tomlin no matter how many times it's stated that the Steelers make decisions as an organization. No players are signed unless the owners put up the cash. I believe Colbert and his staff do a majority of the scouting. Tomlin and the coaching staff evaluate the players based on the organizations standards. Without knowing the inner workings of the organization, it's difficult to suggest who has the final say on draft picks or players that do or don't make the team. It seems that there were times the team choose depth over quality. Sometimes players made the team because they were specialists. I believe final decisions on roster spots are always difficult to make. Hindsight is 20/20. I believe there were logical reasons behind releasing players.

[steelz09]

Harrison was finally given a chance to start under Tomlin, and Woodley was brought in under Tomlin.


Harrison was a given. We was a monster on special teams and he was real good when he saw playing time because of injuries.

Woodley was a no-brainer.

[ikestops85]

He had one year left on his contract at the time of being released...so what is the point of your comment? You think they knew Woodley would start year one 2 weeks after drafting him, so cut Porter? That is a great personel decision....cut your vet LB with a year left on his current contract.


They released Porter because his play had declined, he had a big cap number, and they didn't plan on signing him to a new contract. About the only left tackle Porter could beat was Clevelands so he had to go. It was one thing for Porter to run his mouth when he could back it up but another when he was just full of hot air. Woodley was never going to replace Porter and Woodley NEVER started a game in his rookie year. Harrison was going to be the man as our right side backer.

So yes, cutting a linebacker who was past his prime and had a big cap number was a great personnel decision.

[Steelerphile]

He had one year left on his contract at the time of being released...so what is the point of your comment? You think they knew Woodley would start year one 2 weeks after drafting him, so cut Porter? That is a great personel decision....cut your vet LB with a year left on his current contract.

Are you really criticizing him for releasing Porter? You are really reaching. Porter was not too happy with his contract and his play was on the decline. He got his sacks but he was not that good of an overall linebacker when he left the Steelers. That was very astute to release Porter when he did.

Worilds still has some upside. The entire story is not written on his career. You can jump on Tomlin for that call right now, but in the next few years, you might not look that great.

[Northern_Blitz]

Can't see that releasing Starks was an issue. By all accounts he was unfit to play when they cut him. We put in plan B, which didn't work (in large part due to injuries). Then we got Starks back (at a reduced cap hit?) when he was fit to play again. In that season we went 12-4.

Hard to argue that cutting Starks was some huge mistake. Especially when every other team took a pass on him.

[Mister Pittsburgh]

Are you really criticizing him for releasing Porter? You are really reaching. Porter was not too happy with his contract and his play was on the decline. He got his sacks but he was not that good of an overall linebacker when he left the Steelers. That was very astute to release Porter when he did.

Worilds still has some upside. The entire story is not written on his career. You can jump on Tomlin for that call right now, but in the next few years, you might not look that great.

Porters numbers in 2006 were on par with every other year of his career other then one, 2002 when he had a lot more tackles. So to say he was showing signs of declining is essentially wrong unless you are overall just saying he was never a very good OLB for the Steelers. He left here, played 2007 in Miami where his overall tackles went up from 2006 but sacks went down....and then in 2007 he led the NFL in sacks. So like I said, they had him signed through 2007 and didn't need to cut him for cap room. I said I feel Tomlin wanted to come in and not have to deal with a veteran player who was the mouthpiece of the team and near Tomlins age so he put down the lead dog so he had no competition.

[Sugar]

I said I feel Tomlin wanted to come in and not have to deal with a veteran player who was the mouthpiece of the team and near Tomlins age so he put down the lead dog so he had no competition.

While I don't think that is what happened, I would commend Tomlin highly if it is. That would be the smart thing to do. I just thought the Steelers didn't want to pay an old LB when they had James Harrison waiting in the wings. But if he was smart enough to get Ben on his side while chopping the head of a vocal part of the old regime, that's just good management there.

[Mister Pittsburgh]

While I don't think that is what happened, I would commend Tomlin highly if it is. That would be the smart thing to do. I just thought the Steelers didn't want to pay an old LB when they had James Harrison waiting in the wings. But if he was smart enough to get Ben on his side while chopping the head of a vocal part of the old regime, that's just good management there.

Again, Porter was signed through that season so they only had to pay him what his contract amount was....around 5 million. And it isn't like they had to dump Porter to play Harrison when Clark Haggans was on the other side. Timmons & Woodley had been drafted about 2 weeks prior to the dumping Porter so its not like they woudl of known Woodley would be ready to go year one either.

[Sugar]

Again, Porter was signed through that season so they only had to pay him what his contract amount was....around 5 million. And it isn't like they had to dump Porter to play Harrison when Clark Haggans was on the other side. Timmons & Woodley had been drafted about 2 weeks prior to the dumping Porter so its not like they woudl of known Woodley would be ready to go year one either.

I'd be curious to know if Harrison and Haggans combined cost what Porter did that year. I'm sure they figured that the rooks could sit behind vets and learn. This seems like good management to me. I recall Joey being loud (no!) about getting paid, so they let him go where he could get paid.

[Mister Pittsburgh]

My beef isn't that they let him go, it's that they let him go for nothing. Somehow the Pats parlay vets into high picks. Why shouldn't we?

[steelz09]

Can't see that releasing Starks was an issue. By all accounts he was unfit to play when they cut him. We put in plan B, which didn't work (in large part due to injuries). Then we got Starks back (at a reduced cap hit?) when he was fit to play again. In that season we went 12-4.

Hard to argue that cutting Starks was some huge mistake. Especially when every other team took a pass on him.

It's not hard to argue that at all. Colon's injury had nothing to do w/ the Starks situation. Gilbert was NOT in the cards to play LT as a rookie either. "Plan B" (J. Scott) as you call it was a poor, poor plan. Starks should get half of Tomlin's salary for last year for saving his butt from looking like a complete fool. In fact, he still looks like a fool for having such a poor backup plan. Just about as poor as our FS, NT, and OG situation.


Are you really criticizing him for releasing Porter? You are really reaching. Porter was not too happy with his contract and his play was on the decline. He got his sacks but he was not that good of an overall linebacker when he left the Steelers. That was very astute to release Porter when he did.

Worilds still has some upside. The entire story is not written on his career. You can jump on Tomlin for that call right now, but in the next few years, you might not look that great.

Worlids still has upside?!?! Wow, thats a relief.... My goodness, if he doesn't have any more upside then our OLB situation is poor.

[feltdizz]

I'd be curious to know if Harrison and Haggans combined cost what Porter did that year. I'm sure they figured that the rooks could sit behind vets and learn. This seems like good management to me. I recall Joey being loud (no!) about getting paid, so they let him go where he could get paid.

Joey was real loud about it on NFL Network about wanting a new contract.

Didn't Cowher coax him into not holding out?

[Northern_Blitz]

It's not hard to argue that at all. Colon's injury had nothing to do w/ the Starks situation. Gilbert was NOT in the cards to play LT as a rookie either. "Plan B" (J. Scott) as you call it was a poor, poor plan. Starks should get half of Tomlin's salary for last year for saving his butt from looking like a complete fool. In fact, he still looks like a fool for having such a poor backup plan. Just about as poor as our FS, NT, and OG situation.

Starks was judged by 32 teams (including Arizona!) not to be fit to play in the NFL. You think if other teams thought he was able to play LT at a high level that he would have been on the street? Basically, we cut him until he got healthy and in shape and signed him when he was ready to play again. How many crappy cast-offs have the Cardinals signed since Whiz went there? How would having him on the roster when he couldn't play have helped the Steelers last year?

If anything, that's shrewd management because (1) we weren't paying him when he wasn't fit to play and (2) we sent a message that you are judged based on your current performance, not your past contributions or who your friends are.

[steelz09]

Starks was judged by 32 teams (including Arizona!) not to be fit to play in the NFL. You think if other teams thought he was able to play LT at a high level that he would have been on the street? Basically, we cut him until he got healthy and in shape and signed him when he was ready to play again. How many crappy cast-offs have the Cardinals signed since Whiz went there? How would having him on the roster when he couldn't play have helped the Steelers last year?

If anything, that's shrewd management because (1) we weren't paying him when he wasn't fit to play and (2) we sent a message that you are judged based on your current performance, not your past contributions or who your friends are.

Tomlin got lucky that Starks was still available.

Oh and btw.... Hampton wasn't "fit" to play a few years back but Tomlin didn't cut him... he just put him on the PUP list and made him lose weight at camp. Rumor has it, Hampton weighed close to 400 lbs and he is MUCH MUCH shorter than Starks.

Bottom line is, Tomln thought J. Scott could replace Starks' production and he let Starks walk. Starks saved Tomlin's @$$ and probably deserved to be offensive MVP last year. Without Starks, our QB would have been in a bodybag by week 3, WR's would've had poor production and this team's overall record would have been sub .500.

[Northern_Blitz]

Bottom line is, Tomln thought J. Scott could replace Starks' production and he let Starks walk. Starks saved Tomlin's @$$ and probably deserved to be offensive MVP last year. Without Starks, our QB would have been in a bodybag by week 3, WR's would've had poor production and this team's overall record would have been sub .500.

I guess I disagree. The fact that no other team wanted him (he had even worked out a couple times IIRC) tells me that he wasn't ready to play until around the time we picked him up. It's important to remember that he wasn't just out of shape, but coming back from a neck injury which is likely one of the reasons the Steelers (and other teams) were leery.

We brought Max back on Oct 5 (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/10/05/steelers-bring-back-max-starks/). Before that, we had lost 2 games.

I can't see how having Max on the field is worth 29 points, so I'm going to say that he doesn't help us win week 1 against the Ravens.

Maybe having Max against the Texans puts us in the Win column there (we lost by 7), but I'm not convinced that he's worth an extra 7 points if he's not at 100%.

If we didn't cut Max, but put him on the PUP at the beginning of the year, then he can't practice or play for 6 weeks so he'd miss the Texans game and maybe more. So, cutting him worked out better than putting him on the PUP. Again, I think cutting Starks was a good move. Would he have been as motivated to prove himself if he wasn't on the street?

[steelz09]

If we didn't cut Max, but put him on the PUP at the beginning of the year, then he can't practice or play for 6 weeks so he'd miss the Texans game and maybe more. So, cutting him worked out better than putting him on the PUP. Again, I think cutting Starks was a good move. Would he have been as motivated to prove himself if he wasn't on the street?

Hampton was put on the PUP by Tomlin because of his weight issues and he didn't lose 6 weeks. Why would Starks lose 6 weeks?

http://old.post-gazette.com/pg/08210/900038-66.stm

And btw, no other team wanted James Harrisons either (on multiple occasions) but he turned out ok.

I can't imagine what last year would have looked like without Starks returning. Did you not watch the 2 games w/ J. Scott starting?

And I was a fan of J. Scott because I thought he would step up. I don't know if it was nerves or just talent but he was absolutely terrible the 1st 2 games. TERRIBLE. I swear you could have placed 2 lawn chairs in place of J. Scott and the defenders would have had a more difficult time.

[feltdizz]

Starks didn't save Tomlin's backside... we saved money and Starks got back into form. Starks wasn't ready for the start of the season.

[steelz09]

He didn't? Hahah

Tomlin's extension would be in jeopardy if it wasn't for Starks. Last year with J. Scott as our starting LT = sub .500 record.

[Sugar]

He didn't? Hahah

Tomlin's extension would be in jeopardy if it wasn't for Starks. Last year with J. Scott as our starting LT = sub .500 record.

Even if I accepted the idea that they would have had a sub .500 record without Starks (which I don't), why would that have put Tomlins extension in jeopardy? He's been to two SB's in the short time he's been here and had winning records other years. I don't think one losing season puts him on the hot seat. Do you?

[RuthlessBurgher]

Even if I accepted the idea that they would have had a sub .500 record without Starks (which I don't), why would that have put Tomlins extension in jeopardy? He's been to two SB's in the short time he's been here and had winning records other years. I don't think one losing season puts him on the hot seat. Do you?

Considering they kept Cowher through 3 consecutive seasons of missing the playoffs (with only 1 Super Bowl appearance and no championships on his resume at that point in his coaching career), I'd think not.

[steelz09]

Even if I accepted the idea that they would have had a sub .500 record without Starks (which I don't), why would that have put Tomlins extension in jeopardy? He's been to two SB's in the short time he's been here and had winning records other years. I don't think one losing season puts him on the hot seat. Do you?

With the Cowher and Colbert team... oops.. did I say that :)

Now, that the team is aging... we're seeing this team starting to sink like a ship starting to take on water.... very very slowly. Are we replacing players... yeah, kinda.... but those players are not producing at the same level as the players they were meant to replace.

[SteelAddicted]

I would say that Timmons, Hood, and Heyward have performed less than stellar. Timmons had 1 decent season but.... we could have drafted Beasley.

[Mister Pittsburgh]

I would say that Timmons, Hood, and Heyward have performed less than stellar. Timmons had 1 decent season but.... we could have drafted Beasley.

Throw in dropping a 1st round pick on Mendenhall.....what a waste of a pick.....

[steelz09]

Throw in dropping a 1st round pick on Mendenhall.....what a waste of a pick.....


I'll admit that I was super excited about the Mendenhall and Sweed picks. Boy, were the Steelers and myself wrong. Mendenhall is a decent player but NOT a good 1st round pick.

[Northern_Blitz]

Hampton was put on the PUP by Tomlin because of his weight issues and he didn't lose 6 weeks. Why would Starks lose 6 weeks?

http://old.post-gazette.com/pg/08210/900038-66.stm

And btw, no other team wanted James Harrisons either (on multiple occasions) but he turned out ok.

I can't imagine what last year would have looked like without Starks returning. Did you not watch the 2 games w/ J. Scott starting?

And I was a fan of J. Scott because I thought he would step up. I don't know if it was nerves or just talent but he was absolutely terrible the 1st 2 games. TERRIBLE. I swear you could have placed 2 lawn chairs in place of J. Scott and the defenders would have had a more difficult time.

Hampton didn't start the season on the PUP. He started the PRESEASON on the PUP. We didn't cut Hampton because he was a probowler who would have been picked up in a second. We did cut Starks because he couldn't play at the time. NO OTHER TEAM felt he was capable of playing in the league when we cut him. If he wasn't capable of playing at the start of the season we would either have to keep him and cut someone else, or put him on the PUP (can't play or practice for 6 weeks).

Starks DID return when he was capable of playing. Why would we be thinking about what the season would have looked like if he didn't?

[steelz09]

Hampton didn't start the season on the PUP. He started the PRESEASON on the PUP. We didn't cut Hampton because he was a probowler who would have been picked up in a second. We did cut Starks because he couldn't play at the time. NO OTHER TEAM felt he was capable of playing in the league when we cut him. If he wasn't capable of playing at the start of the season we would either have to keep him and cut someone else, or put him on the PUP (can't play or practice for 6 weeks).

Starks DID return when he was capable of playing. Why would we be thinking about what the season would have looked like if he didn't?

Now, I feel a alot better..... We cut Harrison and no other team thought he was capable of playing including the Ravens who also cut him. Good thing we didn't base all of our decisions on how other teams evaluate players.

[Northern_Blitz]

Now, I feel a alot better..... We cut Harrison and no other team thought he was capable of playing including the Ravens who also cut him. Good thing we didn't base all of our decisions on how other teams evaluate players.

So, you're saying that Starks would have been ready to play at a high level in week 1. I'm saying he wasn't ready to play in the NFL at the beginning of the year and that he needed time to continue his rehab and get in shape. I support my argument with the fact that no one else wanted him (despite the fact that he plays the second most important position on O and has 2 SB rings). You support your argument with...well nothing, except some comments about Casey Hampton and James Harrison which aren't related to the Starks situation. Then you try to refute the only fact we have about his readiness to play in the NFL by arguing that no NFL football team is qualified to evaluate LT play.

Even if Harrison thing was relevant to the discussion, cutting him when we did was a good decision. He couldn't stay with a team because he was not coachable (he has said this himself). Perhaps cutting him helped him realize that he couldn't get by on talent alone. After he got that feedback from us and from the Ravens, maybe Harrison learned from the experience. If your argument is that the Steelers and the Ravens can't evaluate LB talent, I don't know who you think would be qualified to do so.

I think that cutting Starks made him realise that he had to do more than show up to be good. I haven't seen him admit this publicly, but it seems like he was working much harder after he was cut than he is generally known for doing in the off-season. Maybe the fact that no one else in the league thought he was good enough made him work his ass off to get in game shape. If so, that's good motivation by Tomlin and cost savings to boot. I guess there was risk that he would get signed by someone else (just as there would be risk that he wouldn't get back into game shape if we kept him). We took that risk and it worked out because we signed him back (I haven't checked, but I would imagine that he was resigned at a lower number than he was cut at).

At the worst, this decision cost us one game in a season that we went 12-4. If that's the "worst personnel decision under Tomlin", I guess it's another way we can show that we're incredibly spoiled as Steelers fans.

[RuthlessBurgher]

I haven't checked, but I would imagine that he was resigned at a lower number than he was cut at)

I don't have the exact numbers in front of me, but I think Starks was scheduled to make something like $7 million when we cut him, and we signed him back for around $800,000 or so.