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View Full Version : Has Ben improved very much from his rookie season?



squidkid
04-08-2012, 09:20 PM
I just got done watching an ESPN classic game between the Steelers and Giants from December of 2004 where the Steeleras won 33-30. I watched Ben throw 2 terrible interceptions where he never should have attempted to place the ball and was lucky enough to have the dbs drop another 1 or 2. He took a few bad sacks instead of scrambling or throwing it away and underthrew wrs. Fast forward 7 years and you see Ben performing the exact same way. Ben is one of my favorites and I know he has won numerous games and a couple superbowls but I dont see where his decision making has improved much.

feltdizz
04-09-2012, 08:33 AM
Ben reminds me a ton of Brett Favre... it's great when it works but ugly as hell when it doesn't.

steelnavy
04-09-2012, 09:37 AM
I just got done watching an ESPN classic game between the Steelers and Giants from December of 2004 where the Steeleras won 33-30. I watched Ben throw 2 terrible interceptions where he never should have attempted to place the ball and was lucky enough to have the dbs drop another 1 or 2. He took a few bad sacks instead of scrambling or throwing it away and underthrew wrs. Fast forward 7 years and you see Ben performing the exact same way. Ben is one of my favorites and I know he has won numerous games and a couple superbowls but I dont see where his decision making has improved much.

That is a really good point. Taking into the account the poor O-line performance and lack of running game, you have to cut him some slack, but it seems like he kind of leveled off a few years back. I lay the blame on BA. Give Haley some time to right the wrongs and work with Ben. Ben is going to show more growth and maturity this year than he has in the past. And the offense is going to be light years better. And if they improve just a little bit and the defense remains the NUMBER ONE D like last year, well, where is the SB being played next? I am there!

Oviedo
04-09-2012, 09:55 AM
Ben reminds me a ton of Brett Favre... it's great when it works but ugly as hell when it doesn't.

I think that is the perfect analogy. When it is great it is really great and when it is bad it is really bad.

I think that Haley comes in at a perfect time in Ben's career. If Ben wants to keep doing this 5 years from now he needs to change some things and haley is a new set of eyes and fresh persepective. If he doesn't we will have one of those oft-injured 30-something QBs that won't be able to keep this team at the high level we need to be at.

It is really all up to Ben because if he is a hardhead and does just what he wants he won't be able to sustain the same levels of success as he gets older. Hopefully he is smart enough to realize that.

However, if we don't fix the OL, especially at Guard, it won't matter because way too many plays will breakdown into a playground play with Ben scrambling for his life.

Crash
04-09-2012, 11:07 AM
Yeah he sucks. The only HOF to be QB in history who's decision making has never improved.

Todd Haley is a nobody. What QB has he ever helped? Warner was a solid QB in St. Louis long before Haley. The one good year Matt Cassell had was the year Charlie Weiss was there. The two years Weis wasn't? Cassell sucked.

If Haley wasn't from Pittsburgh, no one who's a fan of this team would give a rats @ss about him.

grotonsteel
04-09-2012, 11:23 AM
Todd Haley is a nobody. What QB has he ever helped? Warner was a solid QB in St. Louis long before Haley. The one good year Matt Cassell had was the year Charlie Weiss was there. The two years Weis wasn't? Cassell sucked.



+1

Kansas City Offense was horrible. The only year KC qualified for Playoffs and Matt Cassell did something was when Charlie Weiss was the OC.

The only positive thing about Todd Haley is he is not hell bent on running the ball. He goes by the strength of the team and Steelers strength is their QB. So i am hopeful i will be seeing more 3-4WR sets.

Unless Steelers get a better O-line nothing gonna matter though.

feltdizz
04-09-2012, 12:54 PM
Yeah he sucks. The only HOF to be QB in history who's decision making has never improved.

Todd Haley is a nobody. What QB has he ever helped? Warner was a solid QB in St. Louis long before Haley. The one good year Matt Cassell had was the year Charlie Weiss was there. The two years Weis wasn't? Cassell sucked.

If Haley wasn't from Pittsburgh, no one who's a fan of this team would give a rats @ss about him.

I'll give Haley a chance before calling him a nobody.

Oviedo
04-09-2012, 01:40 PM
+1

Kansas City Offense was horrible. The only year KC qualified for Playoffs and Matt Cassell did something was when Charlie Weiss was the OC.

The only positive thing about Todd Haley is he is not hell bent on running the ball. He goes by the strength of the team and Steelers strength is their QB. So i am hopeful i will be seeing more 3-4WR sets.

Unless Steelers get a better O-line nothing gonna matter though.

Your last sentence says it all. Improve the OL or nothing improves. Plays will continue to "blow Up" because of the inability to execute and our OL getting blown up by better defensive players.

Sugar
04-09-2012, 01:42 PM
Perhaps I'm mistaken, but I recall that the playbook was vastly limited in Ben's rookie year. He really only had a fraction of the available plays to him. He's now able to run the O without those limits.

Another difference is that Ben now has a worse OL, but better weapons. It's all a matter of philosophy of where you spend the money.

Of course, since he hasn't won 15 games straight since then, perhaps he's regressed? ;)

birtikidis
04-09-2012, 01:49 PM
I think at times he looks like he's regressed. Perhaps, BA gave him too much control and that's why at times we see sloppy play. I personally feel it's because we've let the line slip. His first year didn't we have two 1st round picks (faneca and Hartings) and a 2nd round tackle (Smith). I can't remember who the RT/RG were. I must be getting old. I believe it was another 1st round pick at RG with Kendall Simmons and a 3rd round pick in Max Starks. Maybe that had as much to do with our 15-1 record as a rookie qb.

Oviedo
04-09-2012, 02:12 PM
I think at times he looks like he's regressed. Perhaps, BA gave him too much control and that's why at times we see sloppy play. I personally feel it's because we've let the line slip. His first year didn't we have two 1st round picks (faneca and Hartings) and a 2nd round tackle (Smith). I can't remember who the RT/RG were. I must be getting old. I believe it was another 1st round pick at RG with Kendall Simmons and a 3rd round pick in Max Starks. Maybe that had as much to do with our 15-1 record as a rookie qb.

It's the OL. The inability to consistently protect Ben and generate an effective running game throws everything off kilter. Replace the mediocre talent on the OL and the offense will be much more effective.

birtikidis
04-09-2012, 02:25 PM
Ovi, I absolutely agree. I'm glad that DL has enough pull to get Tomlin to go after DLine early in the draft. and it's too bad that BA didn't get on him about getting better OL. Of course, it could also be because Tomlin was a defensive coach and he saw the writing on the wall with Smith, hampton and kiesel age wise. But why he doesn't see that same writing on the wall with Colon and Legs is beyond me.

Sugar
04-09-2012, 02:32 PM
Wow, I was completely kidding about Ben regressing. I think his numbers bear out that he certainly hasn't. He's had some of his best years as a passer in the last few.

Ben is the QB, but he's not the whole Offense. That year Staley and Bettis were crushing it back then. We pulled out some close games at the end as well. Farrior and Porter were absolute beasts, too. There's a lot more to what we did than simply Ben.

birtikidis
04-09-2012, 02:43 PM
Sugar, I think in a way he has regressed. Mostly in the taking sacks department. I would argue though, that it's more the oLine fault then Ben's. That's why I argue that we don't need to go after a weapon early. We need O-line early and often to keep him on his feet. Give him an extra second then let him play sandlot. make the corners work against Wallace and his speed for that extra second. Let Ben set his feet EVERY time he throws it deep to Wallace. Not just some times.

Crash
04-09-2012, 02:56 PM
What CONTROL did BA give Ben? ON THE FIELD because of predictable play-calling based on formation Arians HAMPERED Ben and the offense more than he helped them.

But when this team NEEDS a score, BA put the 3 wides on the field, and got out of their way.

Arians treating Ben like a human being doesn't give Ben "control", it makes Arians human.

If anything, that Giants game was A LOT like the BA offense. A few WR screens, too much 1st and 2nd down red zone running, and not using their franchise QB when it matters most.

But here's the punchline, Whiz was the OC then, not BA.

Sugar
04-09-2012, 03:01 PM
Sugar, I think in a way he has regressed. Mostly in the taking sacks department. I would argue though, that it's more the oLine fault then Ben's. That's why I argue that we don't need to go after a weapon early. We need O-line early and often to keep him on his feet. Give him an extra second then let him play sandlot. make the corners work against Wallace and his speed for that extra second. Let Ben set his feet EVERY time he throws it deep to Wallace. Not just some times.

He seems to be making big passing numbers even with the OL that he has. Heck, how often did we have the same starting lineup on the OL two weeks in a row this past year? We shouldn't forget the number of injuries that hampered this team last year.

We can afford to go BPA in the draft. Sure, there are needs. There are players that will need to be replaced. We will need to get some OL, but there is value there that doesn't necessitate going there early and often to the neglect of other positions.

feltdizz
04-09-2012, 03:05 PM
Ovi, I absolutely agree. I'm glad that DL has enough pull to get Tomlin to go after DLine early in the draft. and it's too bad that BA didn't get on him about getting better OL. Of course, it could also be because Tomlin was a defensive coach and he saw the writing on the wall with Smith, hampton and kiesel age wise. But why he doesn't see that same writing on the wall with Colon and Legs is beyond me.

Well, I'm not sure what Ben was saying behind closed doors but he seemed pretty sincere in defending that horrible OL for years...

birtikidis
04-09-2012, 03:29 PM
He seems to be making big passing numbers even with the OL that he has. Heck, how often did we have the same starting lineup on the OL two weeks in a row this past year? We shouldn't forget the number of injuries that hampered this team last year.

We can afford to go BPA in the draft. Sure, there are needs. There are players that will need to be replaced. We will need to get some OL, but there is value there that doesn't necessitate going there early and often to the neglect of other positions.
haven't we been saying that for several years now? We've ended up with Urbik, Williams, Foster, Kemo, and Legursky using that logic. If we can get a 1st round graded OL then we need to draft a 1st round graded OL. As long as it's not a huge reach, we need to go after it (at tackle and guard). We don't need a center. And yea, we have more numbers passing wise. Course we throw the ball MUCH more than we did Ben's rookie year.

Oviedo
04-09-2012, 03:40 PM
haven't we been saying that for several years now? We've ended up with Urbik, Williams, Foster, Kemo, and Legursky using that logic. If we can get a 1st round graded OL then we need to draft a 1st round graded OL. As long as it's not a huge reach, we need to go after it (at tackle and guard). We don't need a center. And yea, we have more numbers passing wise. Course we throw the ball MUCH more than we did Ben's rookie year.

I totally agree. If we do business as usual and we continue to enrich the defense at the expense of the offense we will not get the type of OL we need to improve. The problem is that we draft so late in each round that if we don't get OL in Round 1 we are not looking at the same level of talent late-Round 2 or 3. That is why I have no issue with overdrafting someone like Zeitler at #24, even though i really want someone like Glenn. I'd really like to see tow of the first four picks being dedicated to the OL and maybe a developmental pick later in Round 6 or 7.

squidkid
04-09-2012, 03:47 PM
fellas, let not kid ourselves here. we can use the oline for an excuse if we want, but the passes ben threw 7 years ago look very similar to the ones he threw the last few years. I dont even need to take into account when he had no time to throw, i'm talking about the times when he has had time.

Sugar
04-09-2012, 03:56 PM
haven't we been saying that for several years now? We've ended up with Urbik, Williams, Foster, Kemo, and Legursky using that logic. If we can get a 1st round graded OL then we need to draft a 1st round graded OL. As long as it's not a huge reach, we need to go after it (at tackle and guard). We don't need a center. And yea, we have more numbers passing wise. Course we throw the ball MUCH more than we did Ben's rookie year.

IMO, it's not a matter if we've been saying it, but if it's true. The fact is that we had an unusual amount of injury along the OL last year. Perhaps we don't have the needed depth, but those guys were often swapping positions just to have a starting lineup. I'm sure we'll get some OL in the draft- there is a lot of talent there this year. We just don't need to reach for it IMO.

hawaiiansteel
04-09-2012, 04:22 PM
I don't believe Ben has improved as much as he should have but i do place a lot of that blame on the poor state of our OL and Bruce Arians.

feltdizz
04-09-2012, 04:28 PM
fellas, let not kid ourselves here. we can use the oline for an excuse if we want, but the passes ben threw 7 years ago look very similar to the ones he threw the last few years. I dont even need to take into account when he had no time to throw, i'm talking about the times when he has had time.

Pretty much... while Ben is a gamer and pretty clutch I've always felt like Ben gets real sloppy once we get up by 10 or have a chance to close the door on a team. Some of his INT's are of the WTF quality...

papillon
04-09-2012, 05:01 PM
Ben is three times better than he was in the beginning of his career. In the beginning of his career he was asked to manage the game and not lose the game and let the veterans make plays and the Steelers won games. Now, with the o-line in shambles (it seems every year) the OC has asked Ben to be the offense and even in a quarterback centric league if you lean on one guy you're doomed. Ben, like any other quarterback will make bad decisions under duress, but when given time or manufacturing time Ben is as good as there is in the game. Don't let an idiotic defensive game plan or just plain bad defensive technique and a loss to the Broncos and Tebow fool you into believing that Ben is somehow a lesser quarterback than he was 7 years ago.

He's better, much better and will get better this year, whether it was Arians at the controls or Haley. Ben's style gives the illusion that he doesn't have an understanding of the game and that's the mistake that many defenses make, IMO. They think that because he can scramble and make something out of nothing that he can't play in the pocket, given the same time that Manning, Rogers, Brees, Brady, etc get to sit and survey the field Ben will pick the defense apart, unfortunately, he's never had that luxury.

Maybe, a good draft and a healthy line for more than 5 games at a time and we'll all see what he can do and it could be spectacular.

The answer to the question is no, Ben hasn't regressed in any area of his game.

Pappy

grotonsteel
04-09-2012, 06:12 PM
Yes Ben has improved. 2 SB wins with horrible O-line and nobody at WRs/TEs.

NJ-STEELER
04-09-2012, 06:18 PM
there's QBs that done improve after their rookie year. they are the ones usually gone in a few years.

tim couch
dave carr
jamarcus

etc etc

flippy
04-09-2012, 07:33 PM
Ben's absolutely improved. Watch him go through progressions. He now gets to his 4th or 5th option with ease.

I suspect the one problem he has is he's become overconfident and believes he can do anything - escape, extend a play, make any throw into a tight window, etc. If you look at pure numbers, Ben had his highest YPA and took his lowest number of sacks his first 2 years in the league. This may have lead to him believing in himself as the 2nd coming. And rightfully so, he kinda is.

But that belief has lead him to hold the ball longer. To try to make more out of nothing. Granted, he takes a lot more attempts passing the ball than he did earlier on in his career. So that changes the dynamics somewhat. But I think his overconfidence in himself is reflected in the number of times he fumbles. He's a little careless sometimes. He sometimes steps over that fine line. He's become more of a risk taker.

Another thing to consider, his decision making may have changed post motorcycle accident. You could argue his passing attempts went up. His Oline got worse. His running game and defensive support declined. But after his accident, his YPA went down, his fumbles went up. He made more bad plays and was less careful with the ball in a sense.

Crash
04-10-2012, 12:44 AM
Anyone who thinks Ben hasn't improved since 2004 in his decision making doesn't pay attention and doesn't actually WATCH him play.

AB84
04-10-2012, 02:45 AM
Anyone who thinks Ben hasn't improved since 2004 in his decision making doesn't pay attention and doesn't actually WATCH him play.

I know this is my first post, but I post at another site often and have lurked this board for a few years. I haven't missed a game unless it wasn't on TV (pre-directv) for 35 years. I felt that was important to this post. Anyhow, Crash....I pay attention, haven't missed a Ben snap as a Steeler. I don't hate Ben, but I actually brought up this very topic on the board I frequent right after this season. The problem is, Ben doesn't think he needs to improve. He may say otherwise from time to time because he's fighting his arrogance I believe. Ben is a top 5 QB but he will never be up with the Big 3 until he realizes that there is actually much he could improve on. Instead of saying "that's just me, I'm a gunslinger" I think he could also be a "smarter gunslinger"..He's content, because he's different from the rest. Make no mistake, Ben cares what people think, and that's why I bring all this up. I think Bens biggest obstacle is all mental, because he has the tools to be one of the best to ever play the game. Bens best 2 games last year were vs. Tennessee and the Pats, also his "smartest" games as a QB as he spread the ball around, taking the short passes, as I believe was the gameplan. When he does this he is almost unstoppable, but he does not like this style, as he's said himself. Not that I needed to hear it, he wants the big play 90% of the plays he drops back. When the D knows this, this offense is much easier to defend.

I think this is partly why Haley has been brought in to correct Bens "mentality"....BA wasn't going to do it, and we all know Haleys not scared. I'm excited to see what Haley can do for Ben and this offense...I could go on but I'm tired. Point is Crash you are blind to anything negative with Ben, always have been. There's an excuse for everything "Ben does wrong"..truth is Ben is the only thing holding Ben back, the Oline deserves their share of blame, but not even close to what fans like you believe. The main problem with pass protection is Ben himself, he could cut his sacks by 1/3 and extends a couple drives a game if he just used his head once in awhile, and wasn't so greedy. In this way he hasn't improved, not in the slightest.

BackwoodsSteeler
04-10-2012, 06:15 AM
And just who would the "Big 3" be? Let me guess:

Brady who has won nothing since the tapes were taken away and folds like a house of cards when any pressure is put in his face. He has good numbers when he is allowed to stand back there for 10 minutes. Behind our o-line he would be average at best.

Manning: A choke dog. Padded stats in a sorry-ass division and go limp in the play-offs. Losing PO record and like Brady, folds with a little heat in his face. Had a chance to lead his team back in the SB and threw a bone-headed pick-6....the type yinz would all hang Ben for.

Brees: An inside stats queen who can't put it together outside, much like manning. Still prolly the best of the 3 of them.

Yeah, I'll take my not-so-bright, not improved, drama queen and be very friggin' happy.

SteelAddicted
04-10-2012, 08:44 AM
I think Ben has improved greatly since his rookie year... don't even think it's a question. But we're going to find out some truths this year. Was it really the play calling and route design that made Ben hold onto the football? or is it Ben not being able to make quick reads? we will find out soon enough.

Eich
04-10-2012, 08:56 AM
I think Ben has definitely improved over the years but not in a huge way. The guy went 15-1 in his rookie year and put on 3 of the most magnificent playoff games in a row his sophmore year. It's pretty difficult to demonstrate a lot of improvment over that.

That said, the one thing that Ben has that puts him with the very TOP QBs ever, is a killer instinct. You can't teach or learn a will to win. It's just in you and Ben has it. When the game is on the line, Ben EXPECTS to win. With this SINGLE trait, we have a shot EVERY year.

feltdizz
04-10-2012, 09:12 AM
Ben's absolutely improved. Watch him go through progressions. He now gets to his 4th or 5th option with ease.

I suspect the one problem he has is he's become overconfident and believes he can do anything - escape, extend a play, make any throw into a tight window, etc. If you look at pure numbers, Ben had his highest YPA and took his lowest number of sacks his first 2 years in the league. This may have lead to him believing in himself as the 2nd coming. And rightfully so, he kinda is.

But that belief has lead him to hold the ball longer. To try to make more out of nothing. Granted, he takes a lot more attempts passing the ball than he did earlier on in his career. So that changes the dynamics somewhat. But I think his overconfidence in himself is reflected in the number of times he fumbles. He's a little careless sometimes. He sometimes steps over that fine line. He's become more of a risk taker.

Another thing to consider, his decision making may have changed post motorcycle accident. You could argue his passing attempts went up. His Oline got worse. His running game and defensive support declined. But after his accident, his YPA went down, his fumbles went up. He made more bad plays and was less careful with the ball in a sense.

Flippy... going through your progressions is what every QB in the NFL is expected to do... we are talking franchise $100 mill QB.

Given Ben's skill and talent... has he reached his full potential? I say hell to the no. Every year he talks about this amazing offense that is about to explode and it never happens. I would like to see our offense reach the level he speaks of...

Eich
04-10-2012, 09:45 AM
Given Ben's skill and talent... has he reached his full potential? I say hell to the no. Every year he talks about this amazing offense that is about to explode and it never happens. I would like to see our offense reach the level he speaks of...

Is that all Ben's fault? Or does it have more to do with other factors? Like an offensive line that has never been a strength and then gets ravished with injuries? Or an offensive coordinator that comes up with odd calls that are overly predictable?


One thing hat has declined with Ben and the offense is clock managment in the two minute drill. That needs some cleaning up.

Crash
04-10-2012, 10:21 AM
And it doesn't happen because Arians A) Shoves garbage TEs down my throat and B) The obsession with ownership to re-live the past instead of embracing the future.

The offense will never reach its full potential until the organization VALUES Ben, and his ability for a season, instead of just late in the 4th quarter.

feltdizz
04-10-2012, 12:45 PM
Is that all Ben's fault? Or does it have more to do with other factors? Like an offensive line that has never been a strength and then gets ravished with injuries? Or an offensive coordinator that comes up with odd calls that are overly predictable?


One thing hat has declined with Ben and the offense is clock managment in the two minute drill. That needs some cleaning up.

No one said it was ALL his fault because it's a team game.... but he had the same OL talent and OC in the Tenn and Pats games.

hawaiiansteel
04-10-2012, 01:10 PM
I know this is my first post, but I post at another site often and have lurked this board for a few years. I haven't missed a game unless it wasn't on TV (pre-directv) for 35 years. I felt that was important to this post. Anyhow, Crash....I pay attention, haven't missed a Ben snap as a Steeler. I don't hate Ben, but I actually brought up this very topic on the board I frequent right after this season. The problem is, Ben doesn't think he needs to improve. He may say otherwise from time to time because he's fighting his arrogance I believe. Ben is a top 5 QB but he will never be up with the Big 3 until he realizes that there is actually much he could improve on. Instead of saying "that's just me, I'm a gunslinger" I think he could also be a "smarter gunslinger"..He's content, because he's different from the rest. Make no mistake, Ben cares what people think, and that's why I bring all this up. I think Bens biggest obstacle is all mental, because he has the tools to be one of the best to ever play the game. Bens best 2 games last year were vs. Tennessee and the Pats, also his "smartest" games as a QB as he spread the ball around, taking the short passes, as I believe was the gameplan. When he does this he is almost unstoppable, but he does not like this style, as he's said himself. Not that I needed to hear it, he wants the big play 90% of the plays he drops back. When the D knows this, this offense is much easier to defend.

I think this is partly why Haley has been brought in to correct Bens "mentality"....BA wasn't going to do it, and we all know Haleys not scared. I'm excited to see what Haley can do for Ben and this offense...I could go on but I'm tired. Point is Crash you are blind to anything negative with Ben, always have been. There's an excuse for everything "Ben does wrong"..truth is Ben is the only thing holding Ben back, the Oline deserves their share of blame, but not even close to what fans like you believe. The main problem with pass protection is Ben himself, he could cut his sacks by 1/3 and extends a couple drives a game if he just used his head once in awhile, and wasn't so greedy. In this way he hasn't improved, not in the slightest.

great first post, welcome to the Planet! :Cheers

AB84
04-10-2012, 03:26 PM
And just who would the "Big 3" be? Let me guess:

Brady who has won nothing since the tapes were taken away and folds like a house of cards when any pressure is put in his face. He has good numbers when he is allowed to stand back there for 10 minutes. Behind our o-line he would be average at best.

Manning: A choke dog. Padded stats in a sorry-ass division and go limp in the play-offs. Losing PO record and like Brady, folds with a little heat in his face. Had a chance to lead his team back in the SB and threw a bone-headed pick-6....the type yinz would all hang Ben for.

Brees: An inside stats queen who can't put it together outside, much like manning. Still prolly the best of the 3 of them.

Yeah, I'll take my not-so-bright, not improved, drama queen and be very friggin' happy.

Heard of Aaronn Rodgers? Ben is no better than 5th in the league right now. I don't want any other QB, but to argue otherwise is silly.

AB84
04-10-2012, 03:27 PM
great first post, welcome to the Planet! :Cheers

Thanks, appreciated.

:Cheers

AB84
04-10-2012, 03:30 PM
Is that all Ben's fault? Or does it have more to do with other factors? Like an offensive line that has never been a strength and then gets ravished with injuries? Or an offensive coordinator that comes up with odd calls that are overly predictable?


One thing hat has declined with Ben and the offense is clock managment in the two minute drill. That needs some cleaning up.

Doesn't matter if Ben had 5 All-Pro's in front of him, he would make them look worse than they actually are.

AB84
04-10-2012, 03:37 PM
Yes Ben has improved. 2 SB wins with horrible O-line and nobody at WRs/TEs.

Yeah, cuz Miller sucks...Fanneca sucked,Hartings sucked,Starks was horrible,86 was a joke,Santonio sucked in 43,etc.etc.

Good point!!

RuthlessBurgher
04-10-2012, 04:43 PM
Doesn't matter if Ben had 5 All-Pro's in front of him, he would make them look worse than they actually are.

Yeah, but his offensive lines of recent vintage typically gave him maybe 1 second of time in the pocket before he has to scramble around to manufacture an extra few seconds for his receivers to get open. Imagine if he had a solid o-line that could give him 3-4 seconds worth of time in the pocket until he had to break contain and run around sandlot-style. Sure, he might still hold the ball too long in either case, but Wallace/Brown/Sanders/Miller should be able to get themselves open for Ben much more often if Ben had just a little bit more time in the pocket before he needed to scramble out of there.

squidkid
04-10-2012, 04:54 PM
why does ben still underthrow wrs so often i cant imagine the wrs being able to get 40-50 yards downfield so ben can underthrow them with only 1 second of dropback proection.

grotonsteel
04-10-2012, 04:57 PM
why does ben still underthrow wrs so often i cant imagine the wrs being able to get 40-50 yards downfield so ben can underthrow them with only 1 second of dropback proection.

Tell me 1 QB in this league who can throw 40-50 yard bombs on the run consistently. Maybe A-Rod.

squidkid
04-10-2012, 05:03 PM
Tell me 1 QB in this league who can throw 40-50 yard bombs on the run consistently. Maybe A-Rod.

So every underthrow of ben's is when he is srambling for his life? I'll have to watch more closely to confirm this.

grotonsteel
04-10-2012, 05:11 PM
Yeah, cuz Miller sucks...Fanneca sucked,Hartings sucked,Starks was horrible,86 was a joke,Santonio sucked in 43,etc.etc.

Good point!!

Miller is not a pass catching TE. He is a great TE overall but he takes hell lot of time to get open, he is not quick like TEs you see on Cheatroits or Aints team. Steelers TE can't block apart from Miller. Forget their pass-catching skill.

Any other TE you would like to mention? Spaeth, DJ, Weslye Saunders are HOfers thanks for letting me know that. If i missed any Steelers great TEs please add to the list.

How many years Harting and Alan F where there? 2 yrs? And who do we replace Hartings with? Sean mahan and Justin hartwig. Are they still in NFL or flipping burgers?

Max Starks..you kidding me. Hey i like Max Starks but Max Starks was benched by our FO in favor of Willie Colon. Max Starks was cut last season. Steelers FO prefered J Scott over Max.

How many 1000 yards seasons Santonio had????

If you keep changing and chopping WRs and O-line how can you expect a consistent Offense.

Let me know when Steelers O-linemen are in great demand in FA till then i will label them outright horrible.

grotonsteel
04-10-2012, 05:13 PM
So every underthrow of ben's is when he is srambling for his life? I'll have to watch more closely to confirm this.

Please do that. I will say Ben completes more 20-40 yards throw than Tom Brady if i am not mistaken. I maybe lazy to look into stats but its my understanding that Steelers complete more 20yards plays in the league than any other team. Or it should be atleast Top-5.

squidkid
04-10-2012, 05:27 PM
Please do that. I will say Ben completes more 20-40 yards throw than Tom Brady if i am not mistaken. I maybe lazy to look into stats but its my understanding that Steelers complete more 20yards plays in the league than any other team. Or it should be atleast Top-5.

once again, who said brady has more bomb completion than ben? i bet brady underthrows his wrs less often then ben does.

feltdizz
04-10-2012, 05:28 PM
Yeah, but his offensive lines of recent vintage typically gave him maybe 1 second of time in the pocket before he has to scramble around to manufacture an extra few seconds for his receivers to get open. Imagine if he had a solid o-line that could give him 3-4 seconds worth of time in the pocket until he had to break contain and run around sandlot-style. Sure, he might still hold the ball too long in either case, but Wallace/Brown/Sanders/Miller should be able to get themselves open for Ben much more often if Ben had just a little bit more time in the pocket before he needed to scramble out of there.

Ben would have more time if he embraced the Tennessee game instead of talking about how he hated playing like that. Our OL isn't the best but Ben makes them look down right horrible at times because he is looking for the big play. Same with Mendenhall... the OL can't block but Redman and Moore made them look pretty good when they were in the game.

We definitely need to keep upgrading the OL but Ben has to pull the trigger instead of taking drive killing sacks. I can't remember the game last year but we were in FG range, Ben had all day and still took a sack that resulted in a missed FG because we were 10 to 15 yards back. These things happen to all QBs but they happen more often with Ben because he doesn't mind contact. He is stubborn. he gets stripped and fumbles because he is trying to throw the ball with 3 guys draped on him.

Awesome when it works... but 75% of the time it doesn't because teams have caught on to Bens game. Teams love playing Ben because they know they will get shots on Ben because of his style... when he was younger he got the best of defenses but now its turning in the other direction.

I wouldn't trade him... love that he is our QB but the guy has to play smarter or he will be a shell in a few years. Hopefully Haley can tweak Ben.

birtikidis
04-10-2012, 05:36 PM
If i were the qb that was getting consistently killed every play, I'd have a hard time setting my feet every time I threw the ball too. Dude gets more "lookout" blocks than any other qb in the league. He throws off his back foot more than anyone that I've seen recently.

squidkid
04-10-2012, 05:43 PM
If i were the qb that was getting consistently killed every play, I'd have a hard time setting my feet every time I threw the ball too. Dude gets more "lookout" blocks than any other qb in the league. He throws off his back foot more than anyone that I've seen recently.


ben must not mind getting the crap kicked out of him because he chooses not to play like the pats and titans game when given a choice

feltdizz
04-10-2012, 05:45 PM
Please do that. I will say Ben completes more 20-40 yards throw than Tom Brady if i am not mistaken. I maybe lazy to look into stats but its my understanding that Steelers complete more 20yards plays in the league than any other team. Or it should be atleast Top-5....and that's part of the reason he takes so many sacks and Brady stays clean. This is also the reason Brady puts up a billion points against inferior opponents. What's the point of attempting 15 to 30 yard passes when the 7 yard out is wide open?

NJ-STEELER
04-10-2012, 06:18 PM
once again, who said brady has more bomb completion than ben? i bet brady underthrows his wrs less often then ben does.


less
because he throws bombs less.

he under threw a 6'5 27 5LBs TE . hard enough to under throw a slow footed TE (compared to wide receivers). never mind one with a bum ankle

PS. he also under threw welder for what could have been the clinching 1st down/TD

NJ-STEELER
04-10-2012, 06:30 PM
ben must not mind getting the crap kicked out of him because he chooses not to play like the pats and titans game when given a choice


i've seen this often, but (unless you have the brideye's camera view) how do you know that its not what the defense was giving those games or the plan was to rid the ball quickly cause they were unsure how the OL would hold up.
what kind of offense do you want to run with this OL. as we've seen they cant sustain long drives cause they eff up way too often with pre snap/holding penalties (YES, this means in the run game too) putting them in tougher down and distances combinations.

everyone brings up the comment he made after the titans game but i've yet to see it. is there a link anywhere?

what about the comment he made a few years ago about talking to bruce to shorten up the routes when they were having major issues on the line. it was said during a national telecast.... why doesnt anyone bring that up?

Crash
04-10-2012, 07:00 PM
Heard of Aaronn Rodgers?

Yep. He's the QB in Green Bay who's advanced in the playoffs ONCE in 4 seasons.

Doesn't win enough. And he inherited a team that was much better than the 10 loss team Ben inherited in 2004.

RuthlessBurgher
04-10-2012, 07:01 PM
I'd like Ben throw the ball away more on first and second down than trying to muscle his way out of sacks (I'd rather an incompletion there than a sack that puts us in 3rd and long situations). But, when we do get to 3rd and long, I like to see him doing everything he can to buy time back there (I hate when pansy QB's throw a 4 yard pattern on 3rd down when they know they need 12 yards). The one thing that is inexcusable is when he takes sacks that take us out of FG range...you have to be smart there and not do something stupid that takes the possibility of 3 points off the board (of course, with Suisham's limited range and shoddy accuracy there are no guarantees, but still...).

Crash
04-10-2012, 07:05 PM
Ben would have more time if he embraced the Tennessee game instead of talking about how he hated playing like that. Our OL isn't the best but Ben makes them look down right horrible at times because he is looking for the big play.

BS. The line struggles have little to do with how Ben plays. They aren't very good when teams A) Blitz them on 3rd and long or B) Stunt between the guards and tackles because they don't have the feet to handle them.

Ben will NEVER, I say again, NEVER, dump a pass off for 5 yards on 3rd and 10 and walk off the field and punt. And truth be told? I don't want him to.

I'll also say again this team would be much better off if they would use 3 wide as a base offense and stop the 2-3 TE BS.

When they spread teams out? And the OL doesn't have to deal with congestion at the LOS? They block pretty well. They always have.

But when they try and run or pass, with 2-3 TEs on the field? The results are terrible.

Spread 'em out. Use your athletes at WR and their speed.

Until that happens? This is who we are.

BURGH86STEEL
04-10-2012, 07:25 PM
I think Ben's improved since his rookie season. I don't think Ben's reached his potential as a QB. Ben does many things well but he continues to struggle with consistency. I believe he struggles with reading and preparing for defenses from game to game. His accuracy (ball placement to the WRs) can be better. He continues to take to many unnecessary hits and sacks. His passing TD numbers should be better based on his talent level and experience.

I wonder if Ben was/is a coachable player? Seems he's was reluctant to take good advice. Seems he has the attitude that i'm going to do this my way regardless of what happens. I believe early team success hurt Ben's development as a QB.

BURGH86STEEL
04-10-2012, 07:34 PM
BS. The line struggles have little to do with how Ben plays. They aren't very good when teams A) Blitz them on 3rd and long or B) Stunt between the guards and tackles because they don't have the feet to handle them.

Ben will NEVER, I say again, NEVER, dump a pass off for 5 yards on 3rd and 10 and walk off the field and punt. And truth be told? I don't want him to.

I'll also say again this team would be much better off if they would use 3 wide as a base offense and stop the 2-3 TE BS.

When they spread teams out? And the OL doesn't have to deal with congestion at the LOS? They block pretty well. They always have.

But when they try and run or pass, with 2-3 TEs on the field? The results are terrible.

Spread 'em out. Use your athletes at WR and their speed.

Until that happens? This is who we are.

There's nothing wrong if the QB dumps off a pass 5 yards on 3rd and 10. It's possible that the player that receives the pass makes the defender miss. Most times, it's smarter to live to play another play then to take an unnecessary hit.

Appears to me that the 3WR set was the base offense. They used 2-3 TE's to help deal with some of the protection issues. They had successful plays out of the 2-3 TE formations. They had plays that were successful and plays that failed out of the 3WR formation.

Crash
04-10-2012, 07:50 PM
Too much 2-3 TE sets on first down, a down which they run the ball 58% of the time.

Then that gets a yard, it's 2nd and 9, there goes David Johnson, in comes Manny Sanders.

Guess what happens on that next down? Pass.

Shave 58% runs on first down closer to 50% and then you can run more on 2nd and 3rd down.

flippy
04-10-2012, 09:01 PM
Tell me 1 QB in this league who can throw 40-50 yard bombs on the run consistently. Maybe A-Rod.



RGIII - In time of course.

Sugar
04-10-2012, 09:17 PM
I wonder if Ben was/is a coachable player? Seems he's was reluctant to take good advice. Seems he has the attitude that i'm going to do this my way regardless of what happens. I believe early team success hurt Ben's development as a QB.

You mean the guy that personally hired a QB coach to work with him while he was serving suspension? That doesn't suggest to me someone that is reluctant to take good advice.

BackwoodsSteeler
04-11-2012, 06:54 AM
Heard of Aaronn Rodgers? Ben is no better than 5th in the league right now. I don't want any other QB, but to argue otherwise is silly.
Didn't even think of him.

You can argue your point...it has merit as it's all subjective. I think I would go Rogers, Ben, Brees and Brady. To argue who's better of those four....does it matter? That's 4 great QB's a lot of other teams would kill to have.

squidkid
04-11-2012, 08:23 AM
less
because he throws bombs less.

he under threw a 6'5 27 5LBs TE . hard enough to under throw a slow footed TE (compared to wide receivers). never mind one with a bum ankle

PS. he also under threw welder for what could have been the clinching 1st down/TD


wrong. he threw slightly behind welker.

feltdizz
04-11-2012, 08:40 AM
You mean the guy that personally hired a QB coach to work with him while he was serving suspension? That doesn't suggest to me someone that is reluctant to take good advice.

uhh... hand picking a guy and paying him to help you isn't the same as taking orders from a Steeler OC.

Sugar
04-11-2012, 10:27 AM
uhh... hand picking a guy and paying him to help you isn't the same as taking orders from a Steeler OC.

No, it's not. That's the point. He paid a guy out of his own pocket who had a great rep for developing QB's. He could just as easily have done nothing during the suspension, or just worked out on his own. Instead, he sought somebody out to help stay sharp and get better.

squidkid
04-11-2012, 10:34 AM
No, it's not. That's the point. He paid a guy out of his own pocket who had a great rep for developing QB's. He could just as easily have done nothing during the suspension, or just worked out on his own. Instead, he sought somebody out to help stay sharp and get better.

not saying ben didnt truly want to stay sharp but considering the position he was in, in the fans, media and owners eyes, this was a pr move that he probably had to make to try to save some face

Sugar
04-11-2012, 10:39 AM
not saying ben didnt truly want to stay sharp but considering the position he was in, in the fans, media and owners eyes, this was a pr move that he probably had to make to try to save some face

Maybe. But he could have saved himself a whole lot of money by just having the cameras rolling when he ran "drills" with ex-Penn Staters or local HS prospects. The fact is that he went out of his way to bring someone respected in who he knew would give him feedback on his game.

grotonsteel
04-11-2012, 11:34 AM
once again, who said brady has more bomb completion than ben? i bet brady underthrows his wrs less often then ben does.

Its difficult to underthrow WRs when they run 5 yards route.

Well Tom Brady was able to underthrow his TE in SB though on a 10 yard route.:lol:

BURGH86STEEL
04-11-2012, 11:38 AM
You mean the guy that personally hired a QB coach to work with him while he was serving suspension? That doesn't suggest to me someone that is reluctant to take good advice.

I don't see how hiring a QB coach proves that Ben took people's advice. There's more to suggest that he refused to take good advice when it was given.

RuthlessBurgher
04-11-2012, 12:29 PM
I'd prefer that he went back to that QB guru in the offseason to work on a few things here and there to improve himself as a quarterback as opposed to claiming that a European golf vacation will somehow magically help him to work on the cerebral aspects of NFL football.

squidkid
04-11-2012, 12:32 PM
Its difficult to underthrow WRs when they run 5 yards route.

Well Tom Brady was able to underthrow his TE in SB though on a 10 yard route.:lol:

maybe ben should take note on how to throw those 5 yard routes instead of lofting up jumpballs 40 yards downfield

squidkid
04-11-2012, 12:38 PM
Didn't even think of him.

You can argue your point...it has merit as it's all subjective. I think I would go Rogers, Ben, Brees and Brady. To argue who's better of those four....does it matter? That's 4 great QB's a lot of other teams would kill to have.

p manning, rodgers, brees, brady and rivers are clearly better. stafford, e manning, romo, ryan are about the same as ben. if you would replace ben with any of the qbs in that first group, the steelers would have more than 2 superbowl wins since 2004. if you would take any of the qbs in the second group we would probably have the same.

feltdizz
04-11-2012, 12:41 PM
Rivers? Nah...
Romo? hell nah...
Ryan? hell to the nah...

feltdizz
04-11-2012, 12:45 PM
Maybe. But he could have saved himself a whole lot of money by just having the cameras rolling when he ran "drills" with ex-Penn Staters or local HS prospects. The fact is that he went out of his way to bring someone respected in who he knew would give him feedback on his game.

first off... I doubt it cost a whole of money for Ben to pay a QB coach...

second off... it's still a guy HE hired... that's waaaaayyyy different then taking direct orders from an OC who is paid by the Steelers.

feltdizz
04-11-2012, 12:47 PM
I'd prefer that he went back to that QB guru in the offseason to work on a few things here and there to improve himself as a quarterback as opposed to claiming that a European golf vacation will somehow magically help him to work on the cerebral aspects of NFL football.

well, it's Haley's first year and Ben has to get mentally prepared. LOL

Sugar
04-11-2012, 12:49 PM
first off... I doubt it cost a whole of money for Ben to pay a QB coach...

second off... it's still a guy HE hired... that's waaaaayyyy different then taking direct orders from an OC who is paid by the Steelers.

Exactly! He PAID somebody to give him pointers. Would a guy who is uncoachable and thinks he already knows everything do that?

RuthlessBurgher
04-11-2012, 01:20 PM
p manning, rodgers, brees, brady and rivers are clearly better. stafford, e manning, romo, ryan are about the same as ben. if you would replace ben with any of the qbs in that first group, the steelers would have more than 2 superbowl wins since 2004. if you would take any of the qbs in the second group we would probably have the same.

On the contrary, Eli and Ben are clearly better than Rivers (unless you enjoy having a talented teams with .500 records who can't even win the craptastic AFC West on a regular basis). The Giants and Steelers both have multiple titles since that draft, and the Chargers also got to watch the guy they dumped for Rivers lead another team to a title as well.

feltdizz
04-11-2012, 01:44 PM
Exactly! He PAID somebody to give him pointers. Would a guy who is uncoachable and thinks he already knows everything do that?

you keep saying PAID like Ben is hurt up for cash....

I definitely think a guy who thinks he knows everything(I don't think Ben thinks this way) would go out and pay a coach for some pointers because the know it all still gets to pick and choose who is worthy to give him pointers. The guy can still fire the coach or tell him he isn't "feeling it" today and he wouldn't get any backlash because he is employed by the know it all.

Now as far as Ben is concerned.. I don't think he is a know it all...

I think he has a problem with authority from coaches who aren't under his wing.

squidkid
04-11-2012, 02:27 PM
Rivers? Nah...
Romo? hell nah...
Ryan? hell to the nah...

really? statistics back my point.

squidkid
04-11-2012, 02:31 PM
On the contrary, Eli and Ben are clearly better than Rivers (unless you enjoy having a talented teams with .500 records who can't even win the craptastic AFC West on a regular basis). The Giants and Steelers both have multiple titles since that draft, and the Chargers also got to watch the guy they dumped for Rivers lead another team to a title as well.

you really think if ben was on the chargers and rivers was with the steelers that the steelers wouldnt have those same 2 superbowls and ben would have the chargers deep in the playoffs every year?

grotonsteel
04-11-2012, 03:00 PM
maybe ben should take note on how to throw those 5 yard routes instead of lofting up jumpballs 40 yards downfield

Blame the OC for play design.

grotonsteel
04-11-2012, 03:03 PM
really? statistics back my point.

Well Cowboys fans will trade Romo for Ben straight up.

Let me know if Matt Ryan can win outside the dome. Did Matt Ryan score any points in the playoff game??

Rivers???? He can't win one of the weakest division.AFC West.

Sugar
04-11-2012, 03:07 PM
you really think if ben was on the chargers and rivers was with the steelers that the steelers wouldnt have those same 2 superbowls and ben would have the chargers deep in the playoffs every year?

You bet! If Ben had gone to the Chargers they probably would have won at least one SB since then. I don't think that the Steelers would probably have won one with Rivers at the Helm. However, if Ben had been playing with Gates, LT, Sproles, et al, and the D they had there for a while, I'm pretty sure he would have brought home a title.

RuthlessBurgher
04-11-2012, 03:07 PM
really? statistics back my point.

And performance in the playoffs doesn't...if I'm picking a QB for my fantasy team, I might prefer one of those guys. But in real-life, I'll agree with dizz there.

AB84
04-11-2012, 03:46 PM
Funny how the Ben ballwashers, blame the Oline, OC, skill positions,coaching etc...when our Offense struggles, but at the same time point out Rivers,Mannings, lack of playoff success as if they don't get the same excuses. So which is it?

Slapstick
04-11-2012, 03:51 PM
Yes. He has.

Crash
04-11-2012, 04:06 PM
Rivers? That's a joke. He's the king of garbage time stats.

Crash
04-11-2012, 04:08 PM
not saying ben didnt truly want to stay sharp but considering the position he was in, in the fans, media and owners eyes, this was a pr move that he probably had to make to try to save some face

PR this, he worked with Whitfield BEFORE the 2010 suspension.

feltdizz
04-11-2012, 04:20 PM
really? statistics back my point.

..and my eyes back my point. I bash Ben a ton but it's because I know he has all the tools to be the best... EVER.

Ben has something none of these QB's have... and that's a short memory. Ben is probably the best QB outside of Eli Manning at not giving a flying crap about how bad his last pass, game or season was... and the only reason I put Eli ahead of Ben in this department is because of facial expression.

NJ-STEELER
04-11-2012, 06:50 PM
wrong. he threw slightly behind welker.


what dioes slightly behind mean to you?

squidkid
04-11-2012, 09:02 PM
what dioes slightly behind mean to you?

well, underthrown means that the wr has to slow way down or stop and wait for the ball to get to him. throwing behind a wr means that the pass was thrown at the correct depth but the wr had to reach back for it.

squidkid
04-11-2012, 09:04 PM
Blame the OC for play design.

doesnt ben audible out of 25% of the plays called?

NJ-STEELER
04-12-2012, 02:42 AM
welker had to 1) come to a full stop. 2) jump 3) twist his his body in the air almost 180 degrees to even get his hands on the ball

if he leads him (cause he never misthrows a longball, as some have you believe) its a TD

Eich
04-12-2012, 08:51 AM
..and my eyes back my point. I bash Ben a ton but it's because I know he has all the tools to be the best... EVER.

Ben has something none of these QB's have... and that's a short memory. Ben is probably the best QB outside of Eli Manning at not giving a flying crap about how bad his last pass, game or season was... and the only reason I put Eli ahead of Ben in this department is because of facial expression.

You're right. And I would pay a LARGE sum of money for that trait. When I make a mistake it drives me nutz.

Eli has surprised me. He looks like a guy that doesn't give a crap about anything with little excitement or drive. Yet, he's found a way to get it done twice against a very good opponent.

It seems to me like Ben has a better "killer instinct" and "will to win" but it's hard to argue with either of them. They're both better than Rivers and the self-proclaimed best QB in the NFL, Flacco.

feltdizz
04-12-2012, 09:31 AM
welker had to 1) come to a full stop. 2) jump 3) twist his his body in the air almost 180 degrees to even get his hands on the ball

if he leads him (cause he never misthrows a longball, as some have you believe) its a TD


it was a horrible pass...

but it wasn't under thrown.

ikestops85
04-12-2012, 11:01 AM
it was a horrible pass...

but it wasn't under thrown.

It was a pass that Welker catches 8 out of 10 times ... but I was glad to see it hit the ground :Cheers

Even Patriot fans are starting to realize that Brady doesn't throw a great deep ball. I think the perception that he does comes from the Randy Moss years. Moss made him seem much better at it than he really is.

grotonsteel
04-12-2012, 11:40 AM
doesnt ben audible out of 25% of the plays called?

25% is nothing for a franchise QB and its not like all his audibles are 50 yards bomb. Quite a few were changed from pass to run.

BA developed WR routes not Ben. Ben would have given him the input but in the end its OC responsibility.

grotonsteel
04-12-2012, 11:42 AM
Funny how the Ben ballwashers, blame the Oline, OC, skill positions,coaching etc...when our Offense struggles, but at the same time point out Rivers,Mannings, lack of playoff success as if they don't get the same excuses. So which is it?

Because people like you want to replace Ben with Rivers, sanchez, Flacco, M Ryan, Stafford etc etc. Hence the comparision.

Crash
04-12-2012, 11:59 AM
Btw after 6 games the Steelers had 19 1st down plays in the red zone.

18 runs 1 pass.

THAT is the $%^&*() problem!

RuthlessBurgher
04-12-2012, 12:15 PM
Btw after 6 games the Steelers had 19 1st down plays in the red zone.

18 runs 1 pass.

THAT is the $%^&*() problem!

Repeat after me..."We have a new O.C. now"...and don't forget to breathe...

Crash
04-12-2012, 12:20 PM
Repeat after me..."We have a new O.C. now"...and don't forget to breathe...

But fans and ownership WANT THEM to commit to the run game.

Arians got fired for doing what ownership asked of him.

And the minute Haley starts passing a lot in the redzone on first down? People will complain.

RuthlessBurgher
04-12-2012, 12:24 PM
But fans and ownership WANT THEM to commit to the run game.

Arians got fired for doing what ownership asked of him.

And the minute Haley starts passing a lot in the redzone on first down? People will complain.

Not if they score.

Crash
04-12-2012, 12:29 PM
Not if they score.

No? I was at the Pats/Steelers game in 2005. After LeBeau's defense gave up a GW field goal right (big shock I know) after we tied the score? Fans (and media) were whining that we scored "too quick" on first down and we should have run the clock.

The bottom line is our obsession with 1975 football hurts this team more than their opponents.

Eich
04-12-2012, 12:42 PM
No? I was at the Pats/Steelers game in 2005. After LeBeau's defense gave up a GW field goal right (big shock I know) after we tied the score? Fans (and media) were whining that we scored "too quick" on first down and we should have run the clock.

The bottom line is our obsession with 1975 football hurts this team more than their opponents.

Meh

It's our obsession with winning that leads to whining when we don't score and don't win - not an obsession with 1975. If we pass and don't score, fans wonder why we didn't run. If we run and get stuffed and don't score, fans wonder why we didn't pass. If we pass and score but lose, fans wonder why we didn't run to run out the clock.

Crash
04-12-2012, 12:44 PM
If we run and get stuffed and don't score, fans wonder why we didn't pass.

Can you show me one media member from last season who questioned our 58% runs on first down and 65% runs on 1st down in the red zone?

Just ONE.

feltdizz
04-12-2012, 12:56 PM
TD's...that's all we care about

birtikidis
04-12-2012, 01:25 PM
No? I was at the Pats/Steelers game in 2005. After LeBeau's defense gave up a GW field goal right (big shock I know) after we tied the score? Fans (and media) were whining that we scored "too quick" on first down and we should have run the clock.

The bottom line is our obsession with 1975 football hurts this team more than their opponents.
was that the game where Ben threw the pick 6?

papillon
04-12-2012, 01:36 PM
There are many types of deep throws that a quarterback has to make, some of them require arm strength and timing with the WR, some require timing and accuracy and others are strictly timing. Ben gets the ball deep better than any quarterback in the game (save Brady possibly) and his YPA bears this out. Ben is efficient in the passing game, because, he's getting YPAs in the 8 yard and above category.

Throwing a deep out, requires arm strength and timing with your wide receiver, no problem here for Ben. Throwing the deep curl, skinny post or the "deep in" route require accuracy and timing with your wide receiver, no problem here for Ben. Throwing a fly, deep corner or post requires faith in your wide receiver to beat his man after about a second and half, if this doesn't happen and you throw one of those patterns there is a very good likelihood that it will be under thrown. Take Wallace for instance, he's at full speed probably after 2 seconds which means for a guy running a 4.3 forty he's covering 10 yards per second. With a 7 step drop and Wallace covering 10 yards per second if you throw the ball after 2.5 - 3 seconds you aren't hitting him in stride, no one is.

Ben simply needs to trust Wallace to be where he expects him and that he will beat his man and throw the ball high enough to allow Wallace to adjust and run to the ball rather than trying to throw it "to" Wallace. I categorize the fly and others as timing patterns, most NFL quarterbacks can throw the ball 60 yards, so it's just a matter of getting the ball out of your hands on time to hit a streaking WR that runs a 4.3, maybe a 4.2 forty, the arm strength is there.

With a YPA right at 8, Ben getting the ball deep isn't a problem, getting it deep on time is the issue, IMO. The deep outs, curls, skinny posts, etc Ben hits in stride the majority of the time. The fly patterns, deep corner, and deep posts are the ones that need to be timed better.

Just my opinion

Pappy

ikestops85
04-12-2012, 01:52 PM
No? I was at the Pats/Steelers game in 2005. After LeBeau's defense gave up a GW field goal right (big shock I know) after we tied the score? Fans (and media) were whining that we scored "too quick" on first down and we should have run the clock.

The bottom line is our obsession with 1975 football hurts this team more than their opponents.

You mean like the Giants in the SB when Bradshaw "fell" into the endzone instead of kneeling at the one. How many were saying he scored too quick?

RuthlessBurgher
04-12-2012, 02:05 PM
There are many types of deep throws that a quarterback has to make, some of them require arm strength and timing with the WR, some require timing and accuracy and others are strictly timing. Ben gets the ball deep better than any quarterback in the game (save Brady possibly) and his YPA bears this out. Ben is efficient in the passing game, because, he's getting YPAs in the 8 yard and above category.

Throwing a deep out, requires arm strength and timing with your wide receiver, no problem here for Ben. Throwing the deep curl, skinny post or the "deep in" route require accuracy and timing with your wide receiver, no problem here for Ben. Throwing a fly, deep corner or post requires faith in your wide receiver to beat his man after about a second and half, if this doesn't happen and you throw one of those patterns there is a very good likelihood that it will be under thrown. Take Wallace for instance, he's at full speed probably after 2 seconds which means for a guy running a 4.3 forty he's covering 10 yards per second. With a 7 step drop and Wallace covering 10 yards per second if you throw the ball after 2.5 - 3 seconds you aren't hitting him in stride, no one is.

Ben simply needs to trust Wallace to be where he expects him and that he will beat his man and throw the ball high enough to allow Wallace to adjust and run to the ball rather than trying to throw it "to" Wallace. I categorize the fly and others as timing patterns, most NFL quarterbacks can throw the ball 60 yards, so it's just a matter of getting the ball out of your hands on time to hit a streaking WR that runs a 4.3, maybe a 4.2 forty, the arm strength is there.

With a YPA right at 8, Ben getting the ball deep isn't a problem, getting it deep on time is the issue, IMO. The deep outs, curls, skinny posts, etc Ben hits in stride the majority of the time. The fly patterns, deep corner, and deep posts are the ones that need to be timed better.

Just my opinion

Pappy

Aaron Rodgers has the best YPA in the league last year at 9.2.

squidkid
04-12-2012, 02:06 PM
There are many types of deep throws that a quarterback has to make, some of them require arm strength and timing with the WR, some require timing and accuracy and others are strictly timing. Ben gets the ball deep better than any quarterback in the game (save Brady possibly) and his YPA bears this out. Ben is efficient in the passing game, because, he's getting YPAs in the 8 yard and above category.

Throwing a deep out, requires arm strength and timing with your wide receiver, no problem here for Ben. Throwing the deep curl, skinny post or the "deep in" route require accuracy and timing with your wide receiver, no problem here for Ben. Throwing a fly, deep corner or post requires faith in your wide receiver to beat his man after about a second and half, if this doesn't happen and you throw one of those patterns there is a very good likelihood that it will be under thrown. Take Wallace for instance, he's at full speed probably after 2 seconds which means for a guy running a 4.3 forty he's covering 10 yards per second. With a 7 step drop and Wallace covering 10 yards per second if you throw the ball after 2.5 - 3 seconds you aren't hitting him in stride, no one is.

Ben simply needs to trust Wallace to be where he expects him and that he will beat his man and throw the ball high enough to allow Wallace to adjust and run to the ball rather than trying to throw it "to" Wallace. I categorize the fly and others as timing patterns, most NFL quarterbacks can throw the ball 60 yards, so it's just a matter of getting the ball out of your hands on time to hit a streaking WR that runs a 4.3, maybe a 4.2 forty, the arm strength is there.

With a YPA right at 8, Ben getting the ball deep isn't a problem, getting it deep on time is the issue, IMO. The deep outs, curls, skinny posts, etc Ben hits in stride the majority of the time. The fly patterns, deep corner, and deep posts are the ones that need to be timed better.

Just my opinion

Pappy

all that would make sense but the ben never has anymore than 1.5 seconds to get rid of the balll;)

Crash
04-12-2012, 02:21 PM
was that the game where Ben threw the pick 6?Um, no. This was the 2005 regular season game.

Crash
04-12-2012, 02:24 PM
You mean like the Giants in the SB when Bradshaw "fell" into the endzone instead of kneeling at the one. How many were saying he scored too quick?Probably the same idiots who said we did. We have all these millionaires on defense. And if we are at the point where we have to NOT SCORE on 1st and goal from the 4 yard line in order to protect them with 1:20 on the clock? Then I'm sorry but we are investing our money on the wrong side of the football.

papillon
04-12-2012, 02:32 PM
Aaron Rodgers has the best YPA in the league last year at 9.2.

Yup, but an 8.0 over Ben's career is pretty darn good and indicates that he's able to get the ball downfield in large chunks of yardage.

Pappy

RuthlessBurgher
04-12-2012, 02:34 PM
Yup, but an 8.0 over Ben's career is pretty darn good and indicates that he's able to get the ball downfield in large chunks of yardage.

Pappy

I agree...just noting that you mentioned Ben and Brady in the post, without also mentioning Rodgers, who was best in this regard.

squidkid
04-12-2012, 03:16 PM
welker had to 1) come to a full stop. 2) jump 3) twist his his body in the air almost 180 degrees to even get his hands on the ball

if he leads him (cause he never misthrows a longball, as some have you believe) its a TD

1) is a complete lie
2) true
3) did have to turn because the ball was thrown the proper distance(not underthrown) but was over his inside shoulder instead of outside shoulder(which would make the thow behind him, late or didnt lead him enough) but should have easily caught the ball because it hit him right in both hands

Sugar
04-12-2012, 05:03 PM
1) is a complete lie
2) true
3) did have to turn because the ball was thrown the proper distance(not underthrown) but was over his inside shoulder instead of outside shoulder(which would make the thow behind him, late or didnt lead him enough) but should have easily caught the ball because it hit him right in both hands

Welker makes that same catch 9 times out of 10. Hines used to drop one occasionally too even as $$ as he usually was. It happens to the best of them. In Welkers case, it just happened at the wrong time with one of the biggest audiences in history.

NJ-STEELER
04-12-2012, 05:08 PM
1) is a complete lie

if your running down the field at full speed and have to plant both feet in order to jump and twist, what would you call it?
2) true
3) did have to turn because the ball was thrown the proper distance(not underthrown) but was over his inside shoulder instead of outside shoulder(which would make the thow behind him, late or didnt lead him enough) but should have easily caught the ball because it hit him right in both hands

says who? again, plenty of analyts said it was a bad throw. the brady nut huggers (and about 30% of the analysts i've heard) put it on welker. it would have been a hell of a catch and he's usually sure handed but the throw put him in a bad position

he was wide f'in open. why is he putting it on his back shoulder

squidkid
04-12-2012, 06:00 PM
says who? again, plenty of analyts said it was a bad throw. the brady nut huggers (and about 30% of the analysts i've heard) put it on welker. it would have been a hell of a catch and he's usually sure handed but the throw put him in a bad position

he was wide f'in open. why is he putting it on his back shoulder

what exactly are you trying to argue?
i'm not a brady fan but i do know he is 2 times the qb that ben is.
google wes welker dropped superbowl video. it is quite easy to find. you will clearly see that welker did not come to a full stop. a full stop means that forward momentum has ceased.
welker also didnt plant both feet and then jump.
i'm not quite sure how running at full speed and leaping up in the air as in to have both your feet stick to the ground, remove all forward momentum and then jump straight up and twist around to try to catch a pass would 1) be physically possible and 2) and if it was, be the best physical manuever to attemp to receive pass that is slightlyt behind you.
once again, what are you trying to argue? did i or someone else say brady threw a perfect pass on that play? did someone say that brady never makes a bad throw? what is your point exactly?

NJ-STEELER
04-12-2012, 06:10 PM
there were replies here (maybe yours or not) that put that play on welker.

im simply stating it wasnt

BURGH86STEEL
04-12-2012, 06:24 PM
there were replies here (maybe yours or not) that put that play on welker.

im simply stating it wasnt

The pass was far from perfect. Welker had the ball in both hands. Welker should had made that catch. It probably a catch he made 100 times in practice.

NJ-STEELER
04-12-2012, 07:39 PM
yes, it hit him in the hands because of the great adjustment he made.
you think he has to jump, turn and twist like that in practice? i bet he doesnt even go for the ball like that in practice. not worth the risk to his body

some here cant stop bitching and complaining when wallace has to slow down a half a step for a deep ball but dont bash brady on a poor throw with a wide open welker streaking down the field

call a spade a spade

squidkid
04-12-2012, 10:25 PM
yes, it hit him in the hands because of the great adjustment he made.
you think he has to jump, turn and twist like that in practice? i bet he doesnt even go for the ball like that in practice. not worth the risk to his body

some here cant stop bitching and complaining when wallace has to slow down a half a step for a deep ball but dont bash brady on a poor throw with a wide open welker streaking down the field

call a spade a spade

why would a steeler fan bash a player from the patriots about making a poor throw?
i am still not sure what you think you're trying to prove.

NJ-STEELER
04-12-2012, 10:37 PM
why would a steeler fan bring up brady to praise him about having a great deep ball on a steeler message board?

wait i see your new here (LOL)

maybe you havent seen tom brought up on this site

squidkid
04-13-2012, 08:15 PM
[QUOTE=NJ-STEELER;504827]why would a steeler fan bring up brady to praise him about having a great deep ball on a steeler message board?

wait i see your new here (LOL)

maybe you havent seen tom brought up on this site[/QUOT

hows this offer from the newbie sound?
you show me where i said brady throws a great deepball and i'll leave this site to the veteran posters like yourself. If you cant, you tuck tail and leave..................lol at that

NJ-STEELER
04-14-2012, 03:45 PM
pay attention.

its been brought up on this board many times. mostly before feb 2012 i would say. so maybe you haven't seen it cause thats when you joined this site.
or maybe you have cause you've been reading along or even had another screen name. either way, its been discussed here. so if brady can be praised here (on a steeler message board)then why cant he be criticized?

squidkid
04-15-2012, 05:29 PM
pay attention.

its been brought up on this board many times. mostly before feb 2012 i would say. so maybe you haven't seen it cause thats when you joined this site.
or maybe you have cause you've been reading along or even had another screen name. either way, its been discussed here. so if brady can be praised here (on a steeler message board)then why cant he be criticized?

i dont give a @#$% if other peoploe have been saying brady throws a great deep ball, i havent, yet you choose to continue to argue with me for some reason. so that being said, you pay attention and take me up on my offer

NJ-STEELER
04-16-2012, 12:52 AM
dude

read the thread, some were putting it on welker. i and most analyts i've heard have put it on brady

then you asked why i should be discussing brady's bad throw on a steeler message board even though my reply was to burghsteel

i said his good throws are discussed here all the time (something you may not know since you just recently joined)

where did i say that only you claimed brady throws a great deep ball? i said its been discussed on this board

hawaiiansteel
04-16-2012, 01:12 AM
The pass was far from perfect. Welker had the ball in both hands. Welker should had made that catch. It probably a catch he made 100 times in practice.

I'll bet Welker makes that catch 98 out of 100 times...


Wes Welker accepts blame: “It hit me right in the hands”

Posted by Michael David Smith on February 6, 2012


The Patriots had a huge opportunity to put Super Bowl XLVI away when Tom Brady passed to an open Wes Welker on a second-and-11 pass with four minutes left in the game.

If Welker catches that pass, the Patriots get a new set of downs and the ball in field goal range while leading 17-15. Even if New England hadn’t gained another yard from there they could have taken time off the clock and kicked a field goal, and it’s possible that they would have either taken all the remaining time off the clock or scored a game-sealing touchdown. Instead, the pass was incomplete, as was Brady’s next pass, and New England had to punt the ball back to the Giants, who now had plenty of time for their game-winning drive.

Speaking to the media after the game, Welker said it was his fault.

“It hit me right in the hands,” Welker said. “I mean, it’s a play I never drop, I always make. Most critical situation, I let the team down.”

Brady deserves some blame for a high pass as well, but Welker seemed to be taking it on his own shoulders.

Several Patriots repeated the mantra after the game that they win as a team and lose as a team, but Welker said that if there’s a Patriot who deserves the bulk of the blame,

“I’m right up there at the top of the list.”

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/02/06/wes-welker-accepts-blame-it-hit-me-right-in-the-hands/

feltdizz
04-16-2012, 08:57 AM
Nothing wrong with taking the blame but we all watched Welker do a Cirque De Soleil move on a pass that was horribly misplaced.