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View Full Version : Name some off the radar 1st round possibilities.



steelblood
04-05-2012, 08:10 AM
When the Steelers selected Ziggy Hood and to a lesser degree when they selected Cam Heyward, I think many of us were a bit surprised. The Steelers often conceal their first round targets quite well (and sometimes not so well - like Revis). Who are some some candidates for surprise Steelers first round pick this season?

I'll start with one.

Nick Perry.

Perry is a little small (shorter 6'3, shorter arms for his height, and only 250 pounds) for a 4-3 DE. His best value is likely at 3-4 OLB. Perry is a tenacious pass rusher with great first step quickness and get off. Perry is still developing as a pass rusher but shows good instincts, defends the run very well and shows good anchor strength to set the edge. He seems like a hard working, high motor steeler type of guy. He could be drafted this season and be groomed as Silverback's replacement while contributing as a rotational nickel pass rusher and special teams guy. This is not a sexy pick. But, this is a Steeler-type pick as he has the right work ethic, motor, and long term value to be potentially the BPA at 24.

Others?

Oviedo
04-05-2012, 08:35 AM
Kevin Zeitler for OG. Experienced blue-collar type, multiyear starter from a major program in a major conference. Reputed to be the anti-Kemo...in other words very smart. Could plug him in at Guard for 10 years.

ramblinjim
04-05-2012, 09:14 AM
Mercelius from Illinois, OLB if they aren't sold on our current backups.

Chadman
04-05-2012, 09:49 AM
Lamar Miller, RB from Miami....very Jamal Charles like...remembering that the Steelers RB stable consists of 1 broken 1st round RB that might not play for a majority of the season, 2 UDFA's with a combined 2 starts to their name (or is it 3?), 1 6th round RB that has proven nothing & 1 7th round RB that didn't make it out of TC before being seriously injured.


How confident do you really feel with that group?

Oviedo
04-05-2012, 09:56 AM
Lamar Miller, RB from Miami....very Jamal Charles like...remembering that the Steelers RB stable consists of 1 broken 1st round RB that might not play for a majority of the season, 2 UDFA's with a combined 2 starts to their name (or is it 3?), 1 6th round RB that has proven nothing & 1 7th round RB that didn't make it out of TC before being seriously injured.


How confident do you really feel with that group?


I'm hoping Terrance Ganaway from Baylor gets a look at RB.

Chadman
04-05-2012, 10:01 AM
I'm hoping Terrance Ganaway from Baylor gets a look at RB.

But Ovi, you're talking about adding another late round RB to the mix. These guys are late round RB's for a reason...not saying they are all doomed to fail, but the odds are stacked against them.

Also, Ganaway's NFL player comparison on CBS- Isaac Redman. We already have that guy..

Oviedo
04-05-2012, 10:05 AM
But Ovi, you're talking about adding another late round RB to the mix. These guys are late round RB's for a reason...not saying they are all doomed to fail, but the odds are stacked against them.

Also, Ganaway's NFL player comparison on CBS- Isaac Redman. We already have that guy..

I just think the reality is that we have more pressing needs in Rounds 1-3. If we don't fix the OL then it won't matter who the RB is because there won't be any holes for them to run through just like the last 3 years. I think Miller will be gone before our pick in Round 3 so I look at a guy like TG as good value later in the draft.

Chadman
04-05-2012, 10:09 AM
I just think the reality is that we have more pressing needs in Rounds 1-3. If we don't fix the OL then it won't matter who the RB is because there won't be any holes for them to run through just like the last 3 years. I think Miller will be gone before our pick in Round 3 so I look at a guy like TG as good value later in the draft.

Miller would have to go at #24 for the Steelers to get him. Pead at the 2nd round selection.

People have a funny scence of 'need'- you don't think having zero proven, healthy RB's on the roster presents a problem?? Particularly when Arians was fired for not adhering to the Rooney's desire to improve the running game?

Oviedo
04-05-2012, 10:12 AM
Miller would have to go at #24 for the Steelers to get him. Pead at the 2nd round selection.

People have a funny scence of 'need'- you don't think having zero proven, healthy RB's on the roster presents a problem?? Particularly when Arians was fired for not adhering to the Rooney's desire to improve the running game?

I think RBs are a dime a dozen in the NFL especially as there is more passing in 1st and 2nd down. The Packers won the Super Bowl two years ago with nothing at RB. The Pats made it to the Super Bowl last year with essentially nothing at RB. RBs have become a commodity. You don't need to have a star.

Chadman
04-05-2012, 10:26 AM
I think RBs are a dime a dozen in the NFL especially as there is more passing in 1st and 2nd down. The Packers won the Super Bowl two years ago with nothing at RB. The Pats made it to the Super Bowl last year with essentially nothing at RB. RBs have become a commodity. You don't need to have a star.

While the Patriots used Green-Ellis & Woodhead as their main RB's last season, they also had 2nd & 3rd round RB's drafted in last years draft- so while they lucked out on 2 nuffy RB's, they still have insurance in the way of higher quality (potentially) RB's on the roster in Vareen & Ridley. The Packers even added a RB in Round 3 last season. And the year they won the SB they had Ryan Grant running for them- a proven RB.

Right now, the Steelers have NO proven, healthy RB on the roster. We've convinced ourselves Redman is the answer...based on what? We like him better than Mendy, therefore he's good enough??

Oviedo
04-05-2012, 10:31 AM
While the Patriots used Green-Ellis & Woodhead as their main RB's last season, they also had 2nd & 3rd round RB's drafted in last years draft- so while they lucked out on 2 nuffy RB's, they still have insurance in the way of higher quality (potentially) RB's on the roster in Vareen & Ridley. The Packers even added a RB in Round 3 last season. And the year they won the SB they had Ryan Grant running for them- a proven RB.

Right now, the Steelers have NO proven, healthy RB on the roster. We've convinced ourselves Redman is the answer...based on what? We like him better than Mendy, therefore he's good enough??

I haven't drank the "underdog" kool aid and convinced myself that Redamn is anything but a back-up but I have convinced myself this is a critical year to fix the OL or we won't have a QB. If we don't protect Ben whoever else we have in the backfield won't matter. We aren't going to the play offs.

Chadman
04-05-2012, 10:36 AM
I haven't drank the "underdog" kool aid and convinced myself that Redamn is anything but a back-up but I have convinced myself this is a critical year to fix the OL or we won't have a QB. If we don't protect Ben whoever else we have in the backfield won't matter. We aren't going to the play offs.

And that brings the argument back to value..pretty sure we can get quality starting-type OL in Rounds 2-4, but the drop-off from the top 4-5 RB's to the rest is quite significant.

JUST-PLAIN-NASTY
04-05-2012, 10:49 AM
Lamar Miller, RB from Miami....very Jamal Charles like...remembering that the Steelers RB stable consists of 1 broken 1st round RB that might not play for a majority of the season, 2 UDFA's with a combined 2 starts to their name (or is it 3?), 1 6th round RB that has proven nothing & 1 7th round RB that didn't make it out of TC before being seriously injured.


How confident do you really feel with that group?

Like Miller too and he makes sense. The Brass showed interest at the Miami proday on the offensive side of the ball. With the attendees in mind...You would think Miller & Washington were being looked at very hard.

Also like Perry. Pass rushers are hard to pass up.

Zeitler is on my wish list...But he would have to be in a trade down or out of the 1st. I'm would have thought Fleener would have been your choice O. He would be a very good choice if stuck at #24.

Barron wouldn't surprise me in the least either. You would think Clark's contract and his age will be one that is looked at going into 2013.


That all being said, At BPA....if a Floyd, Gilmore, or Fleener drop...You have to pick one of those. Steelers philosophy of grade trumps need in the 1st round...Has done them right. For everyone saying the Steelers have bigger "needs" to be addressed....The Steelers have shown they don't think like that. I'm surprised so many of you still say that about the 1st round. If they feel the "need" is so pressing...They won't reach. They will do what Ruthless suggest in his mock and go get their guy "ala Decastro". If they like a guy based on need and they feel he could be taken later...They will try to move back. For those of you who know the Steelers history...You see what addressing needs gets them in the draft. Many of the 2nd round picks since 2000 were to address need...And many of them turned out as disapointments. They are batting around the .500 mark in the 2nd and pretty darn close to batting 1,000 in the 1st staying with their philosophy.

We don't see their board and how their grades fall. I'm not sure how the Steelers set up their board but many teams "tier" the players in groups of 10. If a player the Steelers grade in tier 2 of the 1st round falls to them at #24...Be Dam sure everyone in the war room will be sitting up in their chairs. Whether it be to discuss that player on their roster or answering the phone to move back to target their guy...That player(s) will be the topic of discussion. They won't discount he is still on the board because he doesn't fit their need.

focosteeler
04-05-2012, 11:10 AM
I would not be upset with Amini Silatolu.

JUST-PLAIN-NASTY
04-05-2012, 11:32 AM
I think RBs are a dime a dozen in the NFL especially as there is more passing in 1st and 2nd down. The Packers won the Super Bowl two years ago with nothing at RB. The Pats made it to the Super Bowl last year with essentially nothing at RB. RBs have become a commodity. You don't need to have a star.

We should really put an end to that saying...RBs are a "dime a dozen". Steelers were blessed with Parker. Seem to have a good football player in Redman. You can bring up Foster & Jackson on other rosters. Those gems are found every now and then at every position. Hard facts are out of the Top 20 RBs last year...85% of them were drafted in the 3rd round or higher. 50% of them were 1st rounders. There were 10-1st, 4-2nds, 3-3rds, 1-5th, and 2-Undrafted. Do you really want to play those odds for a player who will touch the ball 40%-50% of the offensive plays? Mendy is out. He was solid but not "spectacular". The dynamics of the offense can elevate with a big play RB and some help on the OL. This draft is deep on the interior OL outside of the 1st. If you want a very good OT you have to get them early. If you want that big play RB....Chances are you have to get him early too. The Steelers are filled with "dime a dozen" RBs right now...With the exception of Redman...The rest may never be more than that. 31 other teams felt that was the case on all of them.

steelblood
04-05-2012, 11:56 AM
We should really put an end to that saying...RBs are a "dime a dozen". Steelers were blessed with Parker. Seem to have a good football player in Redman. You can bring up Foster & Jackson on other rosters. Those gems are found every now and then at every position. Hard facts are out of the Top 20 RBs last year...85% of them were drafted in the 3rd round or higher. 50% of them were 1st rounders. There were 10-1st, 4-2nds, 3-3rds, 1-5th, and 2-Undrafted. Do you really want to play those odds for a player who will touch the ball 40%-50% of the offensive plays? Mendy is out. He was solid but not "spectacular". The dynamics of the offense can elevate with a big play RB and some help on the OL. This draft is deep on the interior OL outside of the 1st. If you want a very good OT you have to get them early. If you want that big play RB....Chances are you have to get him early too. The Steelers are filled with "dime a dozen" RBs right now...With the exception of Redman...The rest may never be more than that. 31 other teams felt that was the case on all of them.

Nasty, why do you like Miller better than David Wilson?

I've seen them both play and I think that Wilson runs better inside, breaks more tackles, and reads blocks better. Miller seems faster and slightly more explosive. But, at this point, I'd rate Wilson a few slots higher.

JUST-PLAIN-NASTY
04-05-2012, 12:15 PM
Nasty, why do you like Miller better than David Wilson?

I've seen them both play and I think that Wilson runs better inside, breaks more tackles, and reads blocks better. Miller seems faster and slightly more explosive. But, at this point, I'd rate Wilson a few slots higher.

I like Wilson. I just have a feeling the Browns are going to take Tanehill at #4 and Wilson at #22. I would trade down and take Miller.

RuthlessBurgher
04-05-2012, 01:45 PM
I like Wilson. I just have a feeling the Browns are going to take Tanehill at #4 and Wilson at #22. I would trade down and take Miller.

I think Cleveland takes RB Trent Richardson at #4 (Hillis is gone and Hardesty always seems to be injured), WR Kendall Wright at #22 (his skill set as a smaller, quicker guy [poor man's Steve Smith] complements Greg Little's as a bigger, stronger guy [poor man's Brandon Marshall] pretty well), and QB Brandon Weeden at #37 (he's more pro-ready than Tannehill...if he weren't going to turn 29 during his rookie season, he'd be the 3rd QB off the board).

JUST-PLAIN-NASTY
04-05-2012, 02:50 PM
I think Cleveland takes RB Trent Richardson at #4 (Hillis is gone and Hardesty always seems to be injured), WR Kendall Wright at #22 (his skill set as a smaller, quicker guy [poor man's Steve Smith] complements Greg Little's as a bigger, stronger guy [poor man's Brandon Marshall] pretty well), and QB Brandon Weeden at #37 (he's more pro-ready than Tannehill...if he weren't going to turn 29 during his rookie season, he'd be the 3rd QB off the board).

I agree about Weeden is more pro ready than Tannehill. After Tannehill's proday, Mayock has described him as a "franchise QB" who may not be ready day 1. Passing on that "franchise QB" especially when you have a QB who could bridge you is very difficult to do. He won't go past #8. I feel they will draft Tannehill at #4 and then have their pick at #22 and #37 at WR & RB. They really are in a good position to put the pieces in place to solidify themselves. You have to like any of the RBs & WRs that will be available to them at those two picks. If Weeden can't beat out Mccoy or the Browns don't feel he is ready enough to face the Steelers & Ravens twice a year...He may be 30 before he ever sees the field. As a Steeler fan....I hope they follow your scenario.

RuthlessBurgher
04-05-2012, 03:06 PM
I agree about Weeden is more pro ready than Tannehill. After Tannehill's proday, Mayock has described him as a "franchise QB" who may not be ready day 1. Passing on that "franchise QB" especially when you have a QB who could bridge you is very difficult to do. He won't go past #8. I feel they will draft Tannehill at #4 and then have their pick at #22 and #37 at WR & RB. They really are in a good position to put the pieces in place to solidify themselves. You have to like any of the RBs & WRs that will be available to them at those two picks. If Weeden can't beat out Mccoy or the Browns don't feel he is ready enough to face the Steelers & Ravens twice a year...He may be 30 before he ever sees the field. As a Steeler fan....I hope they follow your scenario.

Well, if they take Tannehill at #4, then they could go WR like Kendall Wright or Stephen Hill at #22, then RB like Doug Martin, David Wilson, or Lamar Miller at #37. Either way, it's a solid haul for them in their effort to rework their offense.

Cincy also could get a couple of prime prospects with their 2 first round picks (I'm thinking guard and corner are their most immediate needs), so they might be able to land David DeCastro and Stephon Gilmore, or Dre Kirkpatrick and Cordy Glenn...they could do well for themselves too.

The teams in our division should certainly be able to improve themselves.

Shoe
04-08-2012, 12:06 PM
Kevin Zeitler for OG. Experienced blue-collar type, multiyear starter from a major program in a major conference. Reputed to be the anti-Kemo...in other words very smart. Could plug him in at Guard for 10 years.

Do you know Zeitler's game (i.e. have you watched)? Just wondering, cause he is intriguing.
Being from Wisconsin though, I think we may be gunshy, considering Urbik. Zeitler's name seems like it could be interchangeable with Urbik's.

Shawn
04-08-2012, 04:43 PM
Zack Brown is a freak athlete, but has been ignored by the Steeler nation. He is a pick that I believe would be a good one, and would shock most fans.

ikestops85
04-08-2012, 06:39 PM
Do you know Zeitler's game (i.e. have you watched)? Just wondering, cause he is intriguing.
Being from Wisconsin though, I think we may be gunshy, considering Urbik. Zeitler's name seems like it could be interchangeable with Urbik's.

Urbik seems to be getting high props in Buff so I think we might have screwed the pooch on that one.

steelblood
04-08-2012, 06:58 PM
Zack Brown is a freak athlete, but has been ignored by the Steeler nation. He is a pick that I believe would be a good one, and would shock most fans.

Shawn,

He is a great athlete and would be phenomenal as a nickel LBer rushing the passer and covering TEs and RBs. But, teams like Baltimore would run right at him all day long. He does not take on blockers in the hole. He is unwilling to meet the fullback head on. Unless, he changes his mindset, he would try to run around Vonta Leach and would not maintain his assignment. This would be a huge problem. The Steelers (and most 3-4 linebacker teams) will not employ a finesse only linebacker.

Shoe
04-08-2012, 10:07 PM
Urbik seems to be getting high props in Buff so I think we might have screwed the pooch on that one.

Yeah, I did notice that he was starting over there.
It is sad to know that he would/could/should be manning one of the Guard spots that we are currently trying to fill.

Eddie Spaghetti
04-09-2012, 12:15 AM
urbik couldn't beat out foster or legursky while he was here.

I find it funny that because he starts in buffalo, he would somehow be a star here.

when did buffalos offensive line become the NFL's gold standard?

Oviedo
04-09-2012, 07:52 AM
Urbik seems to be getting high props in Buff so I think we might have screwed the pooch on that one.

He does seem to be doing well there. I also think we gave up on him a year too early and now we are stuck with replacing mediocre Guards in Foster and Legursky.

ikestops85
04-09-2012, 10:18 AM
urbik couldn't beat out foster or legursky while he was here.

I find it funny that because he starts in buffalo, he would somehow be a star here.

when did buffalos offensive line become the NFL's gold standard?


I don't think the bills line is the gold standard but it seems to be much better than ours. I seem to recall them leading the league in rushing for most of last year until injuries to the line and Jackson got to them. Also, whenever I hear people talk about the Bills line Urbik is one of the guys mentioned as one of their good young players. I'm not saying Urbik is the second coming of Steve Hutchinson ... just that he would have improved our line.

RuthlessBurgher
04-09-2012, 10:23 AM
The Bills have a better interior line than us right now (Andy Levitre, Eric Wood, Kraig Urbik), but they seem to be hemorrhaging tackles. The Eagles signed Pro Bowl OT Jason Peters away from them a few years ago, and when Peters went down with an Achilles injury recently, Philly swooped in and took OT Demetress Bell away from them too. Of course, we also got OT Jonathan Scott from them too, which I'm sure is a HUGE loss. ;)

Oviedo
04-09-2012, 10:24 AM
I don't think the bills line is the gold standard but it seems to be much better than ours. I seem to recall them leading the league in rushing for most of last year until injuries to the line and Jackson got to them. Also, whenever I hear people talk about the Bills line Urbik is one of the guys mentioned as one of their good young players. I'm not saying Urbik is the second coming of Steve Hutchinson ... just that he would have improved our line.

I would agree. I think the Bills OL last year was every bit as good as ours if not slightly better.

flippy
04-09-2012, 08:05 PM
I've been thinking Coby Fleener could be the surprise pick.

Another could be Rueben Randle. He's a big athletic WR that could help us in the RedZone. Quality kid from a big time program and happens to be a junior which Tomlin seems to like.

Don't think it would happen, but Josh Robinson of Central Florida could be another surprise 1st rounder. Seems like one of the best athletes at the CB position in the draft. He's a junior too. Not a big program. And he's a little short at 5'10" but is around 200lbs and seems like a guy that Lake/Lebeau could really work with to turn into a prototype Steelers corner. Seems a little reachy and not a sure thing. But has a lot of upside.

Chadman
04-09-2012, 08:11 PM
Do you know Zeitler's game (i.e. have you watched)? Just wondering, cause he is intriguing.
Being from Wisconsin though, I think we may be gunshy, considering Urbik. Zeitler's name seems like it could be interchangeable with Urbik's.

From Chadman's understanding, Zeitler is a 'safe' type of pick- in that, the chances of him not making it are slim. His fundamentals are supposed to be good, he's supposed to be intelligent, he seems quite mobile & reports say he is driven to perfection. On top of that, there seems to be no specific weakness to his game. To counter this though- he's limited to OG only & doesn't look like the kind of guy that'll drop your jaw & make you stare in disbelief at just how awesome he is.

He's...solid.

Might not be a sexy pick, but he might just be what the Steelers need.

Chadman
04-10-2012, 10:04 AM
You want an "Off the radar" possibility?

Bruce Irvin.

The Steelers spent time with him at the Combine, and now both Colbert & Tomlin attended West Virginia's Pro Day. The Steelers don't tend to send the big guns out to see potential 6th round types, you'd have to think they were running the eye over Irvin, who could just be the best pass rusher in the draft.

If they are not sold on Worilds, Harrison does turn 34 before the season is out...

Shoe
04-10-2012, 11:16 AM
You want an "Off the radar" possibility?

Bruce Irvin.

The Steelers spent time with him at the Combine, and now both Colbert & Tomlin attended West Virginia's Pro Day. The Steelers don't tend to send the big guns out to see potential 6th round types, you'd have to think they were running the eye over Irvin, who could just be the best pass rusher in the draft.

If they are not sold on Worilds, Harrison does turn 34 before the season is out...

That would be intriguing. However, are you also dismissing Chris Carter, the OLB we picked out of Fresno St last year too?

steelblood
04-10-2012, 11:31 AM
You want an "Off the radar" possibility?

Bruce Irvin.

The Steelers spent time with him at the Combine, and now both Colbert & Tomlin attended West Virginia's Pro Day. The Steelers don't tend to send the big guns out to see potential 6th round types, you'd have to think they were running the eye over Irvin, who could just be the best pass rusher in the draft.

If they are not sold on Worilds, Harrison does turn 34 before the season is out...

Oh, I think the Steelers do like Bruce Irvin very much. I also think they like Keith Tandy as a corner/safety. But, I think (and hope) they like Irvin as a day two guy.

Also, I wouldn't read too much into both Tomlin and Colbert attending the pro day since it is only a 50 minute drive or so.

grotonsteel
04-10-2012, 12:24 PM
Devon Still or Nick Perry.

Bobby Massie maybe. What round is he expected to go? 2nd?

RuthlessBurgher
04-10-2012, 03:02 PM
You want an "Off the radar" possibility?

Bruce Irvin.

The Steelers spent time with him at the Combine, and now both Colbert & Tomlin attended West Virginia's Pro Day. The Steelers don't tend to send the big guns out to see potential 6th round types, you'd have to think they were running the eye over Irvin, who could just be the best pass rusher in the draft.

If they are not sold on Worilds, Harrison does turn 34 before the season is out...

No way on Irvin. He was deemed academically ineligible to play high school football, dropped out of high school, and served a stint in juvenile jail (got a GED and went to junior college before moving on to WVU), then was arrested again recently for destruction of property and disorderly conduct. He's a borderline 3rd round prospect (could easily fall to day 3 of the draft)...if we took him in round 1, I'd be legitimately sick.

RuthlessBurgher
04-10-2012, 03:04 PM
Devon Still or Nick Perry.

Bobby Massie maybe. What round is he expected to go? 2nd?

Massie's a second round prospect...he may go higher than #56, but if he falls to us in round 2, I think the team would be interested.

Chadman
04-10-2012, 09:10 PM
No way on Irvin. He was deemed academically ineligible to play high school football, dropped out of high school, and served a stint in juvenile jail (got a GED and went to junior college before moving on to WVU), then was arrested again recently for destruction of property and disorderly conduct. He's a borderline 3rd round prospect (could easily fall to day 3 of the draft)...if we took him in round 1, I'd be legitimately sick.

Chadman has read about his character concerns, however the reports say he interviewed very well in relation to his past, addressing it well to a number of teams. Apparently he has done a complete 360 degree turnaround on the guy he was growing up to the guy he is now. The recent arrest was slightly concerning, but have also read that it's a 'nothing' charge- an over reaction on the cashiers part (can't remember where Chadman read that- but not making it up...was it Pat Kirwan that reported it??)

The reports also say that it's his dedication to getting the grades up to attend college that attracts people to him.

If he's mentally up to it, he's pretty much the #1 pass rusher in the draft class. Dude can play.

Chadman
04-10-2012, 09:11 PM
Devon Still or Nick Perry.

Bobby Massie maybe. What round is he expected to go? 2nd?

Love Devon Still- Levon Kirkland's cousin. He's the most damaging DL in the draft, in Chadman's opinion.

Chadman
04-10-2012, 09:14 PM
Oh, I think the Steelers do like Bruce Irvin very much. I also think they like Keith Tandy as a corner/safety. But, I think (and hope) they like Irvin as a day two guy.

Also, I wouldn't read too much into both Tomlin and Colbert attending the pro day since it is only a 50 minute drive or so.

Agree about Tandy- has been reported. That both Tomlin & Colbert are on hand though shows they are not dismissing the WVU Pro Day...add to that the Combine interview...

You'll have to forgive Chadman his lack of geographical knowledge of the greater Pittsburgh area...can't seem to get it on his GPS for some reason...

Chadman
04-10-2012, 09:16 PM
That would be intriguing. However, are you also dismissing Chris Carter, the OLB we picked out of Fresno St last year too?

Not dismissing Carter...just that Irvin appears a superior player. Can never have enough pass rushers, right?

Quick question- how much weight could Woodley add before losing his effectiveness? He's 266lbs, right? If he got up to...say, 275-280lbs, could be play DE in a 3-4?