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View Full Version : Its beginning to look a lot like Wallace...



BigRob
03-05-2012, 08:49 PM
...is gone.

This isn't a post to discuss whether we would rather keep Wallace or not. This isn't a post about whether or not we need Wallace. This is a post about what is likely going to happen.

I think the Steelers are secretly hoping that a team gives up a first round pick for Wallace. I think Wallace is as good as he is going to get. They can't pay him and Brown. Brown was the team MVP this year and I think he will be even better next year under Haley.

I think they will hope to have a team offer up a first round pick and sign Wallace to a monstrous deal.

The Steelers will sign Jerricho Cotchery and Antonio Brown this off season to deals. They will then give Emmanual Sanders a 1st round tender next year if he can stay healthy this year.

Brown, Sanders, Cotchery will be the top three receivers in 2012. The Steelers will then take a WR in the first three rounds of this draft. They have a pretty good track record lately with Wallace, Brown, Sanders.

What do you think actually happens with Wallace? What do you think the Steelers really think about this situation that has not already been said by them putting just a 1st round RFA tender on him. Not what you fear is going to happen or what you think should happen.

Chadman
03-05-2012, 08:56 PM
Kevin Colbert doesn't have a track record of telling porky pies. If the Steelers didn't plan on re-signing Wallace, Colbert would not have said they are going to try everything they can do to make it happen.

It'll happen. Why else have they cut as far as they have- to be $9 million under the cap? To re-sign Legursky to a massive deal?

BigRob
03-05-2012, 09:00 PM
Kevin Colbert doesn't have a track record of telling porky pies. If the Steelers didn't plan on re-signing Wallace, Colbert would not have said they are going to try everything they can do to make it happen.

It'll happen. Why else have they cut as far as they have- to be $9 million under the cap? To re-sign Legursky to a massive deal?

We effectively only have 4 million in salary cap space. You need 4 to 5 million to sign draft picks.

Also, you need to look a year ahead. They have both Brown and Sanders becoming RFA's. They will effectively have the same issue with Brown as Wallace this year. They are making a choice between the two and it will be Brown.

Chadman
03-05-2012, 09:11 PM
No, they have about $9 million. The site that shall not be named breaks it down well- after all the tenders are included, they sit about $2.5 to $3 million under the cap.

Wallace won't play next season on the Restricted Tender numbers- they'll sign him long term, lowering his cost. Same goes with Foster & Legursky- they'll likely get signed long term & have a low cap cost.

The Steelers will likely then have to decide if they want to restructure the contracts of guys like Ryan Clark & Larry Foote, both salaries adding up to $6 million for next season. Spread those out, save $3 million here or three...and they are golden.

They could still cut Will Allen & Jonathon Scott too.

Chadman
03-05-2012, 09:14 PM
Kevin Colbert, too, has indicated that once the Tenders have been doled out, they might need to look at another roster cut/move etc as they move along.

Nothing indicates any different from the idea they will be keeping Wallace.

Sugar
03-05-2012, 09:23 PM
...is gone.

This isn't a post to discuss whether we would rather keep Wallace or not. This isn't a post about whether or not we need Wallace. This is a post about what is likely going to happen.

I think the Steelers are secretly hoping that a team gives up a first round pick for Wallace. I think Wallace is as good as he is going to get. They can't pay him and Brown. Brown was the team MVP this year and I think he will be even better next year under Haley.

I think they will hope to have a team offer up a first round pick and sign Wallace to a monstrous deal.

The Steelers will sign Jerricho Cotchery and Antonio Brown this off season to deals. They will then give Emmanual Sanders a 1st round tender next year if he can stay healthy this year.

Brown, Sanders, Cotchery will be the top three receivers in 2012. The Steelers will then take a WR in the first three rounds of this draft. They have a pretty good track record lately with Wallace, Brown, Sanders.

What do you think actually happens with Wallace? What do you think the Steelers really think about this situation that has not already been said by them putting just a 1st round RFA tender on him. Not what you fear is going to happen or what you think should happen.

I guess I'm not sure why you think that. You might be right, but there hasn't been anything from the Steelers that I know of that would make it seem like they'd like to lose Wallace.

SteelBucks
03-05-2012, 09:30 PM
Wallace isn't going anywhere. No team in their right mind, minus Daniel Snyder, will give up a 1st round pick and fork over a boat load of cash that the Steelers can't match. Crazy offers like this is what causes teams to fall into cap hell....I'd like to think most are smarter than that.

Besides, there is no guarantee that Cotchery is returning and Hines is already gone. I doubt they would go into camp with Brown and Sanders as the only returning WR veterans.

But than again, what do I know? Apparently, not much since I thought Farrior and Ward would return next season.

Djfan
03-05-2012, 09:34 PM
Next year's issues of signing the rest of the receiving squad seems the stickler to me. I think the athleticism of Wallace makes the others better, by diverting the defenders. It's not so sure the other way around, and that makes the others more expendable IMO.

So we sign Wallace and hope we can keep the others next year. Their loss isn't as bad for the receiving corps as his would be.

Maybe that is their thinking?

Chadman
03-05-2012, 09:40 PM
Add in that Hampton's contract will likely be eliminated next season, maybe Heath's as well- free's up a bit of money. How long can Harrison play for?

Just saying- that's $24 million right there in 3 guys that could very well be in their last season in Pittsburgh.

Oviedo
03-05-2012, 09:51 PM
...is gone.

This isn't a post to discuss whether we would rather keep Wallace or not. This isn't a post about whether or not we need Wallace. This is a post about what is likely going to happen.

I think the Steelers are secretly hoping that a team gives up a first round pick for Wallace. I think Wallace is as good as he is going to get. They can't pay him and Brown. Brown was the team MVP this year and I think he will be even better next year under Haley.

I think they will hope to have a team offer up a first round pick and sign Wallace to a monstrous deal.

The Steelers will sign Jerricho Cotchery and Antonio Brown this off season to deals. They will then give Emmanual Sanders a 1st round tender next year if he can stay healthy this year.

Brown, Sanders, Cotchery will be the top three receivers in 2012. The Steelers will then take a WR in the first three rounds of this draft. They have a pretty good track record lately with Wallace, Brown, Sanders.

What do you think actually happens with Wallace? What do you think the Steelers really think about this situation that has not already been said by them putting just a 1st round RFA tender on him. Not what you fear is going to happen or what you think should happen.

BR--I have to agree. I posted last week that the way he is playing this thing it is almost like Colbert wants someone to take Wallace and get the pick to help replenish the roster after the cuts he made last week.

Quite frankly, I think it is a great strategy. It is unlikely they can pay both Wallace and brown and after the second half of last season I think they may feel that Brown is the more complete player going forward.

SteelBucks
03-05-2012, 09:52 PM
Add in that Hampton's contract will likely be eliminated next season, maybe Heath's as well- free's up a bit of money. How long can Harrison play for?

Just saying- that's $24 million right there in 3 guys that could very well be in their last season in Pittsburgh.

Why would they get rid of Heath? He's only 29 and soft against the cap for a TE. I agree that Hampton is on borrowed time.

Chadman
03-05-2012, 09:54 PM
Add in that Hampton's contract will likely be eliminated next season, maybe Heath's as well- free's up a bit of money. How long can Harrison play for?

Just saying- that's $24 million right there in 3 guys that could very well be in their last season in Pittsburgh.

Why would they get rid of Heath? He's only 29 and soft against the cap for a TE. I agree that Hampton is on borrowed time.

He'll be 31 before the start of next season & his contract expires at the end of this one, doesn't it? (Could be wrong..)

He's $7 million against the cap this season- is that really soft against the cap??

Chadman
03-05-2012, 10:00 PM
Playing this game though- if Wallace does get signed away- who is best to replace him?

Chadman's pick- Baylor WR Kendall Wright or Wake Forest's Chris Givens.

SteelBucks
03-05-2012, 10:13 PM
Add in that Hampton's contract will likely be eliminated next season, maybe Heath's as well- free's up a bit of money. How long can Harrison play for?

Just saying- that's $24 million right there in 3 guys that could very well be in their last season in Pittsburgh.

Why would they get rid of Heath? He's only 29 and soft against the cap for a TE. I agree that Hampton is on borrowed time.

He'll be 31 before the start of next season & his contract expires at the end of this one, doesn't it? (Could be wrong..)

He's $7 million against the cap this season- is that really soft against the cap??

He turns 30 in October and only counts $4.274 million against the cap this season. He is signed through 2014. He may restructure in the future but doubt he would get cut.

hawaiiansteel
03-05-2012, 10:24 PM
Playing this game though- if Wallace does get signed away- who is best to replace him?

Chadman's pick- Baylor WR Kendall Wright or Wake Forest's Chris Givens.



doesn't sound anywhere even close to being a fair trade to me, I would much rather find a way to keep one of the NFL's fastest and most productive WRs in the B&G.

Chadman
03-05-2012, 10:28 PM
Playing this game though- if Wallace does get signed away- who is best to replace him?

Chadman's pick- Baylor WR Kendall Wright or Wake Forest's Chris Givens.



doesn't sound anywhere even close to being a fair trade to me, I would much rather find a way to keep one of the NFL's fastest and most productive WRs in the B&G.

Completely agree.

Chadman
03-05-2012, 10:32 PM
Add in that Hampton's contract will likely be eliminated next season, maybe Heath's as well- free's up a bit of money. How long can Harrison play for?

Just saying- that's $24 million right there in 3 guys that could very well be in their last season in Pittsburgh.

Why would they get rid of Heath? He's only 29 and soft against the cap for a TE. I agree that Hampton is on borrowed time.

He'll be 31 before the start of next season & his contract expires at the end of this one, doesn't it? (Could be wrong..)

He's $7 million against the cap this season- is that really soft against the cap??

He turns 30 in October and only counts $4.274 million against the cap this season. He is signed through 2014. He may restructure in the future but doubt he would get cut.

So...he'll be 31 at the start of next season then.

His SALARY for 2012 is $4,274,000.00. His CAP FIGURE is $7,070,500.00. He's the 5th highest charge against the cap of the current Steeler roster.

That's a big figure for a guy that will produce half the results of the WR we are currently debating may be overpriced. Chadman likes Heath- but this is starting to get into "Bad Return For The Outlay" territory.

SteelBucks
03-05-2012, 10:46 PM
Add in that Hampton's contract will likely be eliminated next season, maybe Heath's as well- free's up a bit of money. How long can Harrison play for?

Just saying- that's $24 million right there in 3 guys that could very well be in their last season in Pittsburgh.

Why would they get rid of Heath? He's only 29 and soft against the cap for a TE. I agree that Hampton is on borrowed time.

He'll be 31 before the start of next season & his contract expires at the end of this one, doesn't it? (Could be wrong..)

He's $7 million against the cap this season- is that really soft against the cap??

He turns 30 in October and only counts $4.274 million against the cap this season. He is signed through 2014. He may restructure in the future but doubt he would get cut.

So...he'll be 31 at the start of next season then.

His SALARY for 2012 is $4,274,000.00. His CAP FIGURE is $7,070,500.00. He's the 5th highest charge against the cap of the current Steeler roster.

That's a big figure for a guy that will produce half the results of the WR we are currently debating may be overpriced. Chadman likes Heath- but this is starting to get into "Bad Return For The Outlay" territory.

Sorry, I'm getting the whole this season, next season thing screwed up. You're right, I'm wrong.....it's been a loooong day. :wink:

Chadman
03-05-2012, 10:53 PM
Sorry, I'm getting the whole this season, next season thing screwed up. You're right, I'm wrong.....it's been a loooong day. :wink:

:lol:

Never need to apologise to the Chadman.

It's all good. :Beer

AkronSteel
03-05-2012, 11:56 PM
I wouldn't be surprised to see Heath signed to an extension to help lower his cap figure. I could see a 4 year deal that would work out for both sides. Heath is in the prime of his career and has been a stability for Ben when called upon. I don't see him going anywhere any time soon!

sentinel33
03-06-2012, 12:05 AM
Another genius move by the FO.

If someone takes Wallace and we get another 1st round pick-WIN.
If we resign him-WIN.

It's the maneuvering by the organization year after year that, again, makes me soooooo happy to be a Steeler fan.

ter1230_4
03-06-2012, 12:23 AM
If someone takes Wallace and we get another 1st round pick-WIN.
If we resign him-WIN.

Wrong! If someone takes Wallace and all we get for it is a low first round pick, that is a huge loss. You can't just blythely assume that Brown is the same receiver when teams aren't doubling Wallace any more. And what are the chances that the player we take with that low round first round pick is going to be going to the Pro Bowl in 2012? Virtually none. Yet Wallace already has been to the Pro Bowl and has a great chance to go in 2012. The Steelers have no choice but to sign him before he hits the market.

squidkid
03-06-2012, 12:24 AM
there are plenty of guys that can run straight and fast down the field in the draft that can be had in rounds 3-5. who knows, one or two might actually fight for the ball

ter1230_4
03-06-2012, 12:31 AM
[quote="squidkid"]there are plenty of guys that can run straight and fast down the field in the draft that can be had in rounds 3-5. who knows, one or two might actually fight for the ball

So that's all Wallace is, a guy who can run straight and fast down the field, a dime a dozen, huh? Really? Take off the tin foil hat for a minute, and check out reality. There are only a very few receivers in the NFL that can do what Mike Wallace does. The Steelers hit the Lotto when they were able to get this guy in the 3rd round a couple of years ago, and now you're ready to throw him on the trash heap for a low 1st round pick. Ask the Patriots how difficult it is to find a receiver like Mike Wallace in the draft, they've been trying for years. I have faith that the decision makers for the Steelers will do what has to be done to sign Wallace before he hits the market.

Chadman
03-06-2012, 02:09 AM
there are plenty of guys that can run straight and fast down the field in the draft that can be had in rounds 3-5. who knows, one or two might actually fight for the ball


:lol: :lol:

Phew! How lucky are the Steelers? All they need to do is draft a fast 'straight line' guy to replace Mike Wallace, a fat lump of lard who can 'occupy blockers', and an undrafted free agent RB that nobody else wanted, and we'll have ready made replacements for Wallace, Hampton & Mendehall.

It's so easy- surprised that 31 other teams can't do the same.

Chadman
03-06-2012, 02:12 AM
Actually, because it is so easy, the Steelers should just trade away all their early picks & load up on 6th & 7th rounders.

After all, these Pro Bowlers are easy to replace....just ask the casual fan.

RuthlessBurgher
03-06-2012, 02:41 AM
Sorry, I'm getting the whole this season, next season thing screwed up. You're right, I'm wrong.....it's been a loooong day. :wink:

In Australia, with the time difference and all, it's already next season. :wink:

SS Laser
03-06-2012, 02:56 AM
Actually, because it is so easy, the Steelers should just trade away all their early picks & load up on 6th & 7th rounders.

After all, these Pro Bowlers are easy to replace....just ask the casual fan.

I think you need one of these Chadman... :Cheers Drink a cold one and get back to your draft thread before you pop a vein.

No it will not be easy to find a speedster like Wallace that is a good WR (has pretty good hands). The Ravens have a speedeter in Torrey Smith but he seems to drop some passes.

Wonder what Wallace has for drops? Side note here as I went to look up stuff on Wallace: What is that site I have seen posted here that grades the players and has all the weird rankings for players? I thought I had it saved but do not see it. Crap!

But I am still on the fence on what Wallace is worth. One leg or knee injury we might have another "Was" FWP. And I was a big FWP fan. But once that speed is gone and everyday corners can cover Wallace what do we have? I have not seen enough of what he can do without using his speed. Can he be a Ward, Holmes, Brown?

I should go an try and take away Wallace's big gainers. Like so many did for FWP and see what he has for stats for 3 yrs but I am not right now. Some one else can do it. :stirpot

SS Laser
03-06-2012, 03:38 AM
Yes I am going to douple post. I found this for everyone to look at:

2) Mike Wallace, Pittsburgh Steelers
Age as of September 1st, 2012: 26
2011 Grade: +8.2
Key Stat: 478 of his receiving yards came on passes of 20 yards or more.
Behind the numbers: Despite being a restricted free agent, Wallace deserves to draw interest from other teams after an impressive initial three years in the league. In 2009 and 2010, he proved himself to be one of the best deep threats around. In 2011, though, he showed himself to be more than just that and has emerged as a true No. 1. On 113 targets this season, Wallace dropped just four passes.

From here: http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/20 ... receivers/ (http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/02/16/ranking-the-2012-free-agents-wide-receivers/)

Chadman
03-06-2012, 05:28 AM
Sorry, I'm getting the whole this season, next season thing screwed up. You're right, I'm wrong.....it's been a loooong day. :wink:

In Australia, with the time difference and all, it's already next season. :wink:

Steelers are looking good early too. Here's the tip- go to your local bookie, take whatever odds they are offering for a 3-1 start to the season...

steelblood
03-06-2012, 08:12 AM
Wallace won't play next season on the Restricted Tender numbers- they'll sign him long term, lowering his cost. Same goes with Foster & Legursky- they'll likely get signed long term & have a low cap cost.

.

I don't think that is correct.

Even if Wallace only signs a five year deal with a 10 million dollar bonus (which is not going to happen), he'd still count 2.9 (2 mil for prorated bonus + 900k vet min) against the cap. That would be the same as the high rfa tender. Wallace will definitely count more than 3 mil toward the cap unless his signing bonus is about half of Stevie Johnson's, and I can't see that happening.

If Foster and Legursky are tendered at the base amount (1.2) or even the second round amount (1.9), their new deals (if we chose to do that) will likely not lower that by much (if at all) when their prorated signing bonuses are considered.

Redoing all three of these guys would likely result in a higher number, and it would likely be at least 2 million higher if Wallace gets 20 million or so guaranteed.

SteelBucks
03-06-2012, 08:21 AM
Sorry, I'm getting the whole this season, next season thing screwed up. You're right, I'm wrong.....it's been a loooong day. :wink:

In Australia, with the time difference and all, it's already next season. :wink:

Steelers are looking good early too. Here's the tip- go to your local bookie, take whatever odds they are offering for a 3-1 start to the season...

You must kill March Madness! Please tell me my Buckeyes made the Final Four! :)

Shawn
03-06-2012, 09:25 AM
Beginning to look like Wallace is gone? I haven't seen any indication of that. As much as I would like a top 5 pick for Wallace, I believe he gets signed to a long term deal soon...with the Steelers.

feltdizz
03-06-2012, 09:40 AM
Beginning to look like Wallace is gone? I haven't seen any indication of that. As much as I would like a top 5 pick for Wallace, I believe he gets signed to a long term deal soon...with the Steelers.

:Agree

Looks like we are making room for him.

JUST-PLAIN-NASTY
03-06-2012, 10:15 AM
I believe the talks between them gave them no reason to franchise. Like Colbert said, when he wants to stay and the team wants him..Usually things can get done. The Johnson contract is some indication how it will be done. He will get his bonus and guranteed money but his number for 2012 will be in the 5-6 mil range. I suspect they will arrange the contract where the bigger hit starts in 2013 and beyond when the final core of older players are pushed on and they recover their dead money. There is nearly 17 mil for 2013 with dead money recovery & Hampton's contract expiring. 2014 will have the inflated cap so Brown, Sanders, Pouncey, etc. will get paid. Guys like Harrison, Keisel, Clark, Foote, & Mendy will be replaced down the line...some sooner than later.

They key to this transition is drafting...Which I feel confident the Steelers will hit this year and have recently to fill in the rest. They need to hit on a NT, ILB, and G early in this draft. They are the biggest keys. I feel a player at each of those positions will be starting out of this class before years end. Another would be Worrilds and/or Carter showing on the field they are ready to unseat Harrison or someone in the draft fill that role. A Safety, either Rolle, Mundy, Cromartie, or a rookie, needs to rise to the top to be ready for 2013. I know we all hate seeing the names we have known over the last decade begin to be weeded out but the solidifying of the young core has to be the focus to maintain the level of competition the Steelers put on the field every year. There is still a vet prescence for the next shift..But their time is coming too.

Oviedo
03-06-2012, 11:32 AM
Beginning to look like Wallace is gone? I haven't seen any indication of that. As much as I would like a top 5 pick for Wallace, I believe he gets signed to a long term deal soon...with the Steelers.

:Agree

Looks like we are making room for him.

We have no way made enough room for him if you figure out how much we have to tender to keep our RFAs plus our draft picks. I would suspect that Wallace is looking for a contract in the $8M per year range with probably at least $20M guaranteed.

Sign him to that much money and I think you are essentially saying good bye to Brown which I think would be a major mistake. IMO Brown is the better WR. He has better hands, he has better body control and is better at adjusting to the ball in the air plus he can fight for a ball and win it. If Brown continues to perform like last season he is going to want as much as Wallace.

We have no way that much cap space which is why I think Colbert is setting this up secretly hoping for someone to take Wallace and we get a #1 back. His words are just PR. Just my opinion.

phillyesq
03-06-2012, 01:13 PM
I think the Steelers are secretly hoping that a team gives up a first round pick for Wallace.

I think that many posters on this board are hoping that Wallace leaves. I think that the Steelers are hoping to retain Wallace and will retain him.

Stevie Johnson's contract is a good model. Wallace is more talented, but Johnson was facing unrestricted free agency, which meant he would either go free or get tagged.

With Wallace, it is a choice between $2.7 this year or a huge raise, even if he leaves some money on the table on the back end.

BigRob
03-06-2012, 02:22 PM
By effectively not clearing enough cap room to franchise him by cutting loose Foote and reducing Hampton's contract, they have declared they are ok with a first round pick for Wallace.

The Steelers are not as big a gamblers as they are being made out to be. They are also not as bad at managing the cap as they are appearing to others. Who have they had to cut that is going to cost them.

Therefore they are ok if a team wants to give them a first round pick for Wallace. We will not be able to sign both to a long term deal. Brown is going to blow-up even harder this year. We cannot dump that much salary into two wide receiver's.

Dee Dub
03-06-2012, 02:44 PM
Next year's issues of signing the rest of the receiving squad seems the stickler to me. I think the athleticism of Wallace makes the others better, by diverting the defenders. It's not so sure the other way around, and that makes the others more expendable IMO.

So we sign Wallace and hope we can keep the others next year. Their loss isn't as bad for the receiving corps as his would be.

Maybe that is their thinking?


:Clap

This is what I have been saying for months.

18 TD's for Wallace 2 TD's for Brown and 132 receptions for Wallace and 85 receptions for Brown the past two years. And Antonio Brown was targeted more than Wallace last year.

Dee Dub
03-06-2012, 02:52 PM
Oh..and before someone comes up with the "IT's NOT JUST ABOUT SCORING TD's. IT's ALSO ABOUT MOVING THE CHAINS"....

Brown was targeted 123 times last year and had 57 first downs. Wallace was targeted 113 times and had 54 first downs. So Wallace is moving the chains just as much and still scoring way more times than Brown. Now here's the big one number...Brown had 343 YAC and Wallace had 493 YAC. Some of you need to pay closer attention here. Wallace is an elite receiver.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/playe ... ivingYards (http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/receiving/sort/receivingYards)

Oviedo
03-06-2012, 02:54 PM
I think the Steelers are secretly hoping that a team gives up a first round pick for Wallace.

I think that many posters on this board are hoping that Wallace leaves. I think that the Steelers are hoping to retain Wallace and will retain him.

Stevie Johnson's contract is a good model. Wallace is more talented, but Johnson was facing unrestricted free agency, which meant he would either go free or get tagged.

With Wallace, it is a choice between $2.7 this year or a huge raise, even if he leaves some money on the table on the back end.

I don't think anyone is hoping that Wallace leave, it is just if he wants a meg-deal many of us feel he isn't our best WR and we would rather get a 1st Rd draft pick than let him walk after next season and we get nothing.

As a fan I want to keep all the good players, but that isn't in the cards and right now I see Brown as being a better "complete" WR than Wallace. If we have to lose Wallace losing him now and getting a first is better than next year and nothing.

Oviedo
03-06-2012, 02:57 PM
Oh..and before someone comes up with the "IT's NOT JUST ABOUT SCORING TD's. IT's ALSO ABOUT MOVING THE CHAINS"....

Brown was targeted 123 times last year and had 57 first downs. Wallace was targeted 113 times and had 54 first downs. So Wallace is moving the chains just as much and still scoring way more times than Brown. Now here's the big one number...Brown had 343 YAC and Wallace had 493 YAC. Some of you need to pay closer attention here. Wallace is an elite receiver.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/playe ... ivingYards (http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/receiving/sort/receivingYards)

Yes, Wallace is elite but will the Steelers play an elite salary at 6 years and $8M+ per season to keep him? Have they ever paid a WR that much?? That is the fundamental question we are dealing with. I don't think anyone has said they WANT Wallace to leave. I think it is a universal feeling that if we think he leaves anyway we want a Round 1 pick.

BigRob
03-06-2012, 03:25 PM
Next year's issues of signing the rest of the receiving squad seems the stickler to me. I think the athleticism of Wallace makes the others better, by diverting the defenders. It's not so sure the other way around, and that makes the others more expendable IMO.

So we sign Wallace and hope we can keep the others next year. Their loss isn't as bad for the receiving corps as his would be.

Maybe that is their thinking?


:Clap

This is what I have been saying for months.

18 TD's for Wallace 2 TD's for Brown and 132 receptions for Wallace and 85 receptions for Brown the past two years. And Antonio Brown was targeted more than Wallace last year.

Not right to look at Brown's rookie year. He was buried on the depth chart behind Wallace and Ward his rookie year. That's not an apples to apples comparison.

Dee Dub
03-06-2012, 03:33 PM
Oh..and before someone comes up with the "IT's NOT JUST ABOUT SCORING TD's. IT's ALSO ABOUT MOVING THE CHAINS"....

Brown was targeted 123 times last year and had 57 first downs. Wallace was targeted 113 times and had 54 first downs. So Wallace is moving the chains just as much and still scoring way more times than Brown. Now here's the big one number...Brown had 343 YAC and Wallace had 493 YAC. Some of you need to pay closer attention here. Wallace is an elite receiver.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/playe ... ivingYards (http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/receiving/sort/receivingYards)

Yes, Wallace is elite but will the Steelers play an elite salary at 6 years and $8M+ per season to keep him? Have they ever paid a WR that much?? That is the fundamental question we are dealing with. I don't think anyone has said they WANT Wallace to leave. I think it is a universal feeling that if we think he leaves anyway we want a Round 1 pick.

Steelers dont have to pay him 6 years and 8 million plus per year. They need only pay him 2.47 million for next year. No team is going to pay Wallace 7-9 million a year and give up a first round pick for him. Not gonna happen. And the Steelers know this. The Steelers are worried only about next year. And they are getting an elite receiver next year on the cheap.

Dee Dub
03-06-2012, 03:36 PM
Next year's issues of signing the rest of the receiving squad seems the stickler to me. I think the athleticism of Wallace makes the others better, by diverting the defenders. It's not so sure the other way around, and that makes the others more expendable IMO.

So we sign Wallace and hope we can keep the others next year. Their loss isn't as bad for the receiving corps as his would be.

Maybe that is their thinking?


:Clap

This is what I have been saying for months.

18 TD's for Wallace 2 TD's for Brown and 132 receptions for Wallace and 85 receptions for Brown the past two years. And Antonio Brown was targeted more than Wallace last year.

Not right to look at Brown's rookie year. He was buried on the depth chart behind Wallace and Ward his rookie year. That's not an apples to apples comparison.

Well I have actually compared the past two seasons as well as just last season. And in 2010 Wallace wasnt the number one go to go receiver until about mid-season if you will remember. I think it is a very fair comparison.

Oviedo
03-06-2012, 03:47 PM
[quote="Dee Dub":1t5rz1p9]Oh..and before someone comes up with the "IT's NOT JUST ABOUT SCORING TD's. IT's ALSO ABOUT MOVING THE CHAINS"....

Brown was targeted 123 times last year and had 57 first downs. Wallace was targeted 113 times and had 54 first downs. So Wallace is moving the chains just as much and still scoring way more times than Brown. Now here's the big one number...Brown had 343 YAC and Wallace had 493 YAC. Some of you need to pay closer attention here. Wallace is an elite receiver.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/playe ... ivingYards (http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/receiving/sort/receivingYards)

Yes, Wallace is elite but will the Steelers play an elite salary at 6 years and $8M+ per season to keep him? Have they ever paid a WR that much?? That is the fundamental question we are dealing with. I don't think anyone has said they WANT Wallace to leave. I think it is a universal feeling that if we think he leaves anyway we want a Round 1 pick.

Steelers dont have to pay him 6 years and 8 million plus per year. They need only pay him 2.47 million for next year. No team is going to pay Wallace 7-9 million a year and give up a first round pick for him. Not gonna happen. And the Steelers know this. The Steelers are worried only about next year. And they are getting an elite receiver next year on the cheap.[/quote:1t5rz1p9]

Kicking the can down the road does not change the dynamics. Next year you would still have to sign Wallace with little cap space and next year Brown is going to be an RFA because he is going to want just as much money as Wallace. So the issue of how much do you spend to retain both remains.

If both repeat their performances of last season in 2012, who do you want? I would want Brown, but by waiting until next year by making Wallace an RFA tender and keeping him you potentially lose him for nothing. That is the argument about "hoping" someone signs him this year. At least we get a very good return versus a return of nothing next year.

I do not have anywhere near the confidence that you do that the Steelers retaining Wallace long term is a sure thing. I strongly believe that either Brown or Wallace will have to be sacrificed and I would choose Wallace.

Slapstick
03-06-2012, 03:48 PM
What makes the comparison an apples to oranges comparison is the fact that Wallace is the X and Brown is the Z...

The routes that Wallace generally runs at the X lend themselves to deep passes and YaC...

Brown at the Z? Not so much...

BigRob
03-06-2012, 03:59 PM
[quote=Djfan]Next year's issues of signing the rest of the receiving squad seems the stickler to me. I think the athleticism of Wallace makes the others better, by diverting the defenders. It's not so sure the other way around, and that makes the others more expendable IMO.

So we sign Wallace and hope we can keep the others next year. Their loss isn't as bad for the receiving corps as his would be.

Maybe that is their thinking?


:Clap

This is what I have been saying for months.

18 TD's for Wallace 2 TD's for Brown and 132 receptions for Wallace and 85 receptions for Brown the past two years. And Antonio Brown was targeted more than Wallace last year.

Not right to look at Brown's rookie year. He was buried on the depth chart behind Wallace and Ward his rookie year. That's not an apples to apples comparison.

Well I have actually compared the past two seasons as well as just last season. And in 2010 Wallace wasnt the number one go to go receiver until about mid-season if you will remember. I think it is a very fair comparison.[/quote:1vcflvpv]

Statistics are quoted to be skewed anyway you want them to be. The really fair question is to compare each of their first seasons with significant playing time. Wallace's second and Brown's second. :D

RuthlessBurgher
03-06-2012, 04:37 PM
Yes, Wallace is elite but will the Steelers play an elite salary at 6 years and $8M+ per season to keep him? Have they ever paid a WR that much?? That is the fundamental question we are dealing with. I don't think anyone has said they WANT Wallace to leave. I think it is a universal feeling that if we think he leaves anyway we want a Round 1 pick.

The amount of money these players make is constantly get bigger and bigger...NFL salary inflation is a necessary evil of the business...whenever we extend one of our top players, it ends up being the most we have ever paid a player at that position in team history. Last year, we gave Woodley a deal bigger than any LB in Steeler history. We also gave Ike a deal bigger than any CB in Steeler history. Of course a Wallace extension will be the biggest contract for a WR in Steeler history. Do you really expect the team to give Wallace less now than we gave Hines 3 years ago?

Dee Dub
03-06-2012, 04:58 PM
Wallace year two-----60 1,257 21.0 10 48 (FD) 100 times targeted
Brown year two-------69 1,108 16.1 2 57 (FD) 123 times targeted

Obvious Wallace does a lot more with less oportunities and he scores a lot more than Brown who really doesnt score all that much at all. Can you imagine had Wallace been targeted 23 more times?

BigRob
03-06-2012, 05:19 PM
Wallace year two-----60 1,257 21.0 10 48 (FD) 100 times targeted
Brown year two-------69 1,108 16.1 2 57 (FD) 123 times targeted

Obvious Wallace does a lot more with less oportunities and he scores a lot more than Brown who really doesnt score all that much at all. Can you imagine had Wallace been targeted 23 more times?

Two questions:

1)Why did Wallace's numbers drop like a rock once Brown got on the field?

2)Why was Brown voted as the team MVP and not Wallace? Don't the players who are present everyday know who deserves the props? If Wallace did all that much for Brown's numbers, why wasn't he the MVP?

I just have a gut feeling that Brown will be the player that gets the long term deal and the Steelers are secretly hoping Wallace nets a first round pick.

Otherwise, why even risk Wallace being able to sign with another team? You don't take that chance even if you are confident you can lock a guy up long-term. It Doesn't make any sense when you could ask Foote and Hampton to take reduced salaries (which they would have) and franchise Wallace easily.

Dee Dub
03-06-2012, 05:28 PM
Wallace year two-----60 1,257 21.0 10 48 (FD) 100 times targeted
Brown year two-------69 1,108 16.1 2 57 (FD) 123 times targeted

Obvious Wallace does a lot more with less oportunities and he scores a lot more than Brown who really doesnt score all that much at all. Can you imagine had Wallace been targeted 23 more times?

Two questions:

1)Why did Wallace's numbers drop like a rock once Brown got on the field?

2)Why was Brown voted as the team MVP and not Wallace? Don't the players who are present everyday know who deserves the props? If Wallace did all that much for Brown's numbers, why wasn't he the MVP?

I just have a gut feeling that Brown will be the player that gets the long term deal and the Steelers are secretly hoping Wallace nets a first round pick.

Otherwise, why even risk Wallace being able to sign with another team? You don't take that chance even if you are confident you can lock a guy up long-term. It Doesn't make any sense when you could ask Foote and Hampton to take reduced salaries (which they would have) and franchise Wallace easily.

Rob, you are exaggerating. Wallace's numbers didnt drop off like a rock. He had more receptions last year than he did the year before. That's not dropping off like a rock.

His numbers did drop some over the second half of the year but not like a rock. If you are paying attention to these games you will know your answer to this. Teams are now game planning against Mike Wallace. Having man coverage with over the top safety help is something Wallace sees on a regular basis now. Antonio Brown will never see that as long as Mike Wallace is on the field.

I could careless what their teammates say, look at the numbers. Mike Wallace scores TD's, makes big plays with less, and is the main focus of opposing defenses.

Antonio Brown, at this stage of his career, doesnt score TD's, even though he got the ball thrown at him more than Wallace last year.

Chadman
03-06-2012, 05:56 PM
Before this thread degenerates into a Wallace vs Brown- Who is Better? thread, chadman will raise the question once more-

If the Steelers were preparing to lose Wallace, why reduce the Salary Cap figure NOW to about $9 million under? Why not just get under the cap a little bit- enough to resign the guys they CAN re-sign?

" The site that shall not be named" has shown that AFTER the tenders have been given, the Steelers are around $3-$4 million under the cap. AFTER. So that takes into account Wallace's tender number. What's that? $2.7 million? Well, they have another $3-$4 million to play with in regards to bumping his 2012 salary hit.

As was mentioned earlier- this thread is decieving. It's not a "What do you think WILL happen" thread- it's a disguised "Brown is better value than Wallace - the Steelers should let Wallace go & get a 1st round pick" thread.

And, for the first time in a few days- Chadman agrees with DD.

:D

BradshawsHairdresser
03-06-2012, 06:01 PM
Antonio Brown, at this stage of his career, doesnt score TD's, even though he got the ball thrown at him more than Wallace last year.


Don't you think that might have something to do with the routes each of them was assigned? Seems to me that Wallace was running more deep routes and that he was targeted in the end zone more than Brown. If Brown gets more end zone looks and a few more deep routes, maybe his # of TD's will increase.

I'm not arguing, though, that having Wallace as a deep threat didn't help open up the underneath stuff for Brown. That seems obvious to me. We need that elite-speed guy on the outside for our offense to shine.

I just hope that the Patriots don't take Wally away. He's more valuable, at this point, than #31 in the first-round. But I believe that, in the long run, Brown will prove to be the better receiver. Just my opinion.

Dee Dub
03-06-2012, 06:08 PM
Before this thread degenerates into a Wallace vs Brown- Who is Better? thread, chadman will raise the question once more-

If the Steelers were preparing to lose Wallace, why reduce the Salary Cap figure NOW to about $9 million under? Why not just get under the cap a little bit- enough to resign the guys they CAN re-sign?

" The site that shall not be named" has shown that AFTER the tenders have been given, the Steelers are around $3-$4 million under the cap. AFTER. So that takes into account Wallace's tender number. What's that? $2.7 million? Well, they have another $3-$4 million to play with in regards to bumping his 2012 salary hit.

As was mentioned earlier- this thread is decieving. It's not a "What do you think WILL happen" thread- it's a disguised "Brown is better value than Wallace - the Steelers should let Wallace go & get a 1st round pick" thread.

And, for the first time in a few days- Chadman agrees with DD.

:D

Honestly, despite what they have said they want to do with Wallace, I dont think the Steelers are interested in singing him long term until the end of next year.

Why should they? Who knows what happens between now and then. Sanders may emerge or they may draft someone this year who emerges.

BradshawsHairdresser
03-06-2012, 06:11 PM
Honestly, despite what they have said they want to do with Wallace, I dont think the Steelers are interested in singing him long term until the end of next year.

Why should they? Who knows what happens between now and then. Sanders may emerge or they may draft someone this year who emerges.
:Agree

Chadman
03-06-2012, 06:16 PM
Before this thread degenerates into a Wallace vs Brown- Who is Better? thread, chadman will raise the question once more-

If the Steelers were preparing to lose Wallace, why reduce the Salary Cap figure NOW to about $9 million under? Why not just get under the cap a little bit- enough to resign the guys they CAN re-sign?

" The site that shall not be named" has shown that AFTER the tenders have been given, the Steelers are around $3-$4 million under the cap. AFTER. So that takes into account Wallace's tender number. What's that? $2.7 million? Well, they have another $3-$4 million to play with in regards to bumping his 2012 salary hit.

As was mentioned earlier- this thread is decieving. It's not a "What do you think WILL happen" thread- it's a disguised "Brown is better value than Wallace - the Steelers should let Wallace go & get a 1st round pick" thread.

And, for the first time in a few days- Chadman agrees with DD.

:D

Honestly, despite what they have said they want to do with Wallace, I dont think the Steelers are interested in singing him long term until the end of next year.

Why should they? Who knows what happens between now and then. Sanders may emerge or they may draft someone this year who emerges.

What makes you think that DD?

Kevin Colbert isn't exactly a Smoke & Mirrors guy. He's come out & said that they want to sign him long term. Chadman tends to believe that.

NottinghamForest_UK
03-06-2012, 06:20 PM
Antonio Brown, at this stage of his career, doesnt score TD's, even though he got the ball thrown at him more than Wallace last year.


Don't you think that might have something to do with the routes each of them was assigned? Seems to me that Wallace was running more deep routes and that he was targeted in the end zone more than Brown. If Brown gets more end zone looks and a few more deep routes, maybe his # of TD's will increase.

I'm not arguing, though, that having Wallace as a deep threat didn't help open up the underneath stuff for Brown. That seems obvious to me. We need that elite-speed guy on the outside for our offense to shine.

I just hope that the Patriots don't take Wally away. He's more valuable, at this point, than #31 in the first-round. But I believe that, in the long run, Brown will prove to be the better receiver. Just my opinion.


What he said! :Agree

Dee Dub
03-06-2012, 06:28 PM
Before this thread degenerates into a Wallace vs Brown- Who is Better? thread, chadman will raise the question once more-

If the Steelers were preparing to lose Wallace, why reduce the Salary Cap figure NOW to about $9 million under? Why not just get under the cap a little bit- enough to resign the guys they CAN re-sign?

" The site that shall not be named" has shown that AFTER the tenders have been given, the Steelers are around $3-$4 million under the cap. AFTER. So that takes into account Wallace's tender number. What's that? $2.7 million? Well, they have another $3-$4 million to play with in regards to bumping his 2012 salary hit.

As was mentioned earlier- this thread is decieving. It's not a "What do you think WILL happen" thread- it's a disguised "Brown is better value than Wallace - the Steelers should let Wallace go & get a 1st round pick" thread.

And, for the first time in a few days- Chadman agrees with DD.

:D

Honestly, despite what they have said they want to do with Wallace, I dont think the Steelers are interested in singing him long term until the end of next year.

Why should they? Who knows what happens between now and then. Sanders may emerge or they may draft someone this year who emerges.

What makes you think that DD?

Kevin Colbert isn't exactly a Smoke & Mirrors guy. He's come out & said that they want to sign him long term. Chadman tends to believe that.

I dont think the Steelers have made all these cap adjustments and all the future cap problems down the road just to sign Mike Wallace right now. And if Colbert signs Wallace to a long term contract this time next year, well..he hasnt lied.

If it were me...I wouldnt do it now. And I am a huge Wallace fan. Use the money that you have now to improve this team. Signing Mike Wallace long term now doesnt do that. He's already on the team next year.

Dee Dub
03-06-2012, 06:46 PM
[quote="Dee Dub":unoroozx]Antonio Brown, at this stage of his career, doesnt score TD's, even though he got the ball thrown at him more than Wallace last year.


Don't you think that might have something to do with the routes each of them was assigned? Seems to me that Wallace was running more deep routes and that he was targeted in the end zone more than Brown. If Brown gets more end zone looks and a few more deep routes, maybe his # of TD's will increase.

I'm not arguing, though, that having Wallace as a deep threat didn't help open up the underneath stuff for Brown. That seems obvious to me. We need that elite-speed guy on the outside for our offense to shine.

I just hope that the Patriots don't take Wally away. He's more valuable, at this point, than #31 in the first-round. But I believe that, in the long run, Brown will prove to be the better receiver. Just my opinion.


What he said! :Agree[/quote:unoroozx]

Routes have very little to do with it. See Wes Welker (9 TD's), Rob Gronkowski (17 TD's), Jimmy Graham (11 TD's), Percy Harvin (6 TD's), Greg Jennings (9 TD's)...all guys who line up from the inside.

BradshawsHairdresser
03-06-2012, 06:55 PM
[quote=BradshawsHairdresser][quote="Dee Dub":9vilbsne]Antonio Brown, at this stage of his career, doesnt score TD's, even though he got the ball thrown at him more than Wallace last year.


Don't you think that might have something to do with the routes each of them was assigned? Seems to me that Wallace was running more deep routes and that he was targeted in the end zone more than Brown. If Brown gets more end zone looks and a few more deep routes, maybe his # of TD's will increase.

I'm not arguing, though, that having Wallace as a deep threat didn't help open up the underneath stuff for Brown. That seems obvious to me. We need that elite-speed guy on the outside for our offense to shine.

I just hope that the Patriots don't take Wally away. He's more valuable, at this point, than #31 in the first-round. But I believe that, in the long run, Brown will prove to be the better receiver. Just my opinion.


What he said! :Agree[/quote:9vilbsne]

Routes have very little to do with it. See Wes Welker (9 TD's), Rob Gronkowski (17 TD's), Jimmy Graham (11 TD's), Percy Harvin (6 TD's), Greg Jennings (9 TD's)...all guys who line up from the inside.[/quote:9vilbsne]
I'm not talking strictly about how they line up, but about how they're used.

But nah, players like Graham and Gronkowski don't get any more chances in the end zone than Brown does.... :roll:

Dee Dub
03-06-2012, 07:05 PM
[quote=BradshawsHairdresser][quote="Dee Dub":25vuj236]Antonio Brown, at this stage of his career, doesnt score TD's, even though he got the ball thrown at him more than Wallace last year.


Don't you think that might have something to do with the routes each of them was assigned? Seems to me that Wallace was running more deep routes and that he was targeted in the end zone more than Brown. If Brown gets more end zone looks and a few more deep routes, maybe his # of TD's will increase.

I'm not arguing, though, that having Wallace as a deep threat didn't help open up the underneath stuff for Brown. That seems obvious to me. We need that elite-speed guy on the outside for our offense to shine.

I just hope that the Patriots don't take Wally away. He's more valuable, at this point, than #31 in the first-round. But I believe that, in the long run, Brown will prove to be the better receiver. Just my opinion.


What he said! :Agree

Routes have very little to do with it. See Wes Welker (9 TD's), Rob Gronkowski (17 TD's), Jimmy Graham (11 TD's), Percy Harvin (6 TD's), Greg Jennings (9 TD's)...all guys who line up from the inside.[/quote:25vuj236]
I'm not talking strictly about how they line up, but about how they're used.

But nah, players like Graham and Gronkowski don't get any more chances in the end zone than Brown does.... :roll:[/quote:25vuj236]

Inside the twenty so far, Brown doesnt get open. Wes Welker and Greg Jennings who also play the slot they do. That is a fair comparison.

RuthlessBurgher
03-06-2012, 07:57 PM
Why was Brown voted as the team MVP and not Wallace? Don't the players who are present everyday know who deserves the props? If Wallace did all that much for Brown's numbers, why wasn't he the MVP?

In addition to Brown's 1000+ yards receiving, he also had 1000+ yards returning punts and kicks, thereby establishing a new total yardage record in Steeler history. That is why Brown was named MVP (not only his contributions to the offense as a receiver, but also his contributions to our special teams as a return man).

Dee Dub
03-06-2012, 08:03 PM
Why was Brown voted as the team MVP and not Wallace? Don't the players who are present everyday know who deserves the props? If Wallace did all that much for Brown's numbers, why wasn't he the MVP?

In addition to Brown's 1000+ yards receiving, he also had 1000+ yards returning punts and kicks, thereby establishing a new total yardage record in Steeler history. That is why Brown was named MVP (not only his contributions to the offense as a receiver, but also his contributions to our special teams as a return man).

Yeah..I didnt want waste my time answering that one. But thanks Ruthless.

BigRob
03-06-2012, 08:32 PM
Why was Brown voted as the team MVP and not Wallace? Don't the players who are present everyday know who deserves the props? If Wallace did all that much for Brown's numbers, why wasn't he the MVP?

In addition to Brown's 1000+ yards receiving, he also had 1000+ yards returning punts and kicks, thereby establishing a new total yardage record in Steeler history. That is why Brown was named MVP (not only his contributions to the offense as a receiver, but also his contributions to our special teams as a return man).

Yeah..I didnt want waste my time answering that one. But thanks Ruthless.

Sorry for digressing into an argument on the merits of Brown vs. Wallace. I am just stating my two cents that Wallace will probably be gone and Brown will be signed to a long term deal.

Dee Dub
03-06-2012, 08:45 PM
Why was Brown voted as the team MVP and not Wallace? Don't the players who are present everyday know who deserves the props? If Wallace did all that much for Brown's numbers, why wasn't he the MVP?

In addition to Brown's 1000+ yards receiving, he also had 1000+ yards returning punts and kicks, thereby establishing a new total yardage record in Steeler history. That is why Brown was named MVP (not only his contributions to the offense as a receiver, but also his contributions to our special teams as a return man).

Yeah..I didnt want waste my time answering that one. But thanks Ruthless.

Sorry for digressing into an argument on the merits of Brown vs. Wallace. I am just stating my two cents that Wallace will probably be gone and Brown will be signed to a long term deal.

No it's ok Rob. You are entitled to your opinion. When you talk about team MVP and ignore the fact that Brown also had a huge impact in the return game it shows that your argument is a little skewed. I let it go and originally ignored it.

As a receiver, Wallace is the one opposing teams defense. Wallace may never see single coverage again. Brown gets that all day long.

BigRob
03-08-2012, 08:08 PM
Rob, you are exaggerating. Wallace's numbers didnt drop off like a rock. He had more receptions last year than he did the year before. That's not dropping off like a rock.

His numbers did drop some over the second half of the year but not like a rock.

Never really answered this, but his numbers did drop like a rock. Here was his year:


Whole season: 72 receptions, 1193 yards, 8 touchdowns, 16.5 ypc

First 8 games: 43 receptions, 800 yards, 5 td, 18.6 ypc

Last 8 games: 29 receptions, 393 yards, 3 td, 13.5 ypc

Don't know what you see, but his production dropped by nearly 500 yards and 5 ypc the last 8 games.

RuthlessBurgher
03-08-2012, 08:34 PM
Never really answered this, but his numbers did drop like a rock. Here was his year:


Whole season: 72 receptions, 1193 yards, 8 touchdowns, 16.5 ypc

First 8 games: 43 receptions, 800 yards, 5 td, 18.6 ypc

Last 8 games: 29 receptions, 393 yards, 3 td, 13.5 ypc

Don't know what you see, but his production dropped by nearly 500 yards and 5 ypc the last 8 games.

407 is "nearly 500"??? Just say he had more than twice as many yards in the first half as he had in the second half.

Chadman
03-08-2012, 09:13 PM
The question should include how much did Brown's numbers increase in that period. If the 2 players stats rise & fall concurrently, isn't it safe to assume that Brown was just benefitting from Wallace being double-teamed?

RuthlessBurgher
03-08-2012, 09:24 PM
The question should include how much did Brown's numbers increase in that period. If the 2 players stats rise & fall concurrently, isn't it safe to assume that Brown was just benefitting from Wallace being double-teamed?

Okay, then...

Wallace:

First 8 games: 43 receptions, 800 yards, 5 td, 18.6 ypc

Last 8 games: 29 receptions, 393 yards, 3 td, 13.5 ypc

Brown:

First 8 games: 34 receptions, 431 yards, 1 td, 12.7 ypc

Last 8 games: 35 receptions, 677 yards, 1 td, 19.3 ypc


Looks like Wallace was the deep threat in the first half while Brown was more of a possession receiver, then those roles switched in the second half of the season.


You also have to keep in mind that Ben was injured in week 14. He wasn't able to play up to his usual standards in weeks 15 & 17, and wasn't able to play at all in week 16.

BigRob
03-09-2012, 02:15 PM
Okay, then...

Wallace:

First 8 games: 43 receptions, 800 yards, 5 td, 18.6 ypc

Last 8 games: 29 receptions, 393 yards, 3 td, 13.5 ypc

Brown:

First 8 games: 34 receptions, 431 yards, 1 td, 12.7 ypc

Last 8 games: 35 receptions, 677 yards, 1 td, 19.3 ypc


Looks like Wallace was the deep threat in the first half while Brown was more of a possession receiver, then those roles switched in the second half of the season.


You also have to keep in mind that Ben was injured in week 14. He wasn't able to play up to his usual standards in weeks 15 & 17, and wasn't able to play at all in week 16.

It would be awesome to keep both players, but it is not likely. I would rather have Brown. He is going to be a star and is just coming into his potential. I think Wallace has maxed out already.

Crash
03-09-2012, 02:16 PM
I think Wallace if he stays better focus on the fact that he's getting out-worked by a 6th rounder.

If Wallace had Browns "want to", he'd be unstoppable.

Dee Dub
03-09-2012, 02:38 PM
I think Wallace if he stays better focus on the fact that he's getting out-worked by a 6th rounder.

If Wallace had Browns "want to", he'd be unstoppable.

Crash? are you kidding me? Can we get your thoughts on Wards retirement? .....:stirpot

But on your comment here...that "want to" you mention about Brown, it isnt carrying over to scoring touchdowns. Seems as if Wallace as a more "want to" when it comes to getting into the end zone. ;)

BigRob
03-09-2012, 02:59 PM
Crash? are you kidding me? Can we get your thoughts on Wards retirement? .....:stirpot

But on your comment here...that "want to" you mention about Brown, it isnt carrying over to scoring touchdowns. Seems as if Wallace as a more "want to" when it comes to getting into the end zone. ;)

This is becoming your fall back option. You said Wallace didn't have a dramatic drop in production in the second half of the season...he did. Your not mentioning the special teams production that Wallace doesn't. It all comes down to opportunities. I don't think that Brown had the same # of opportunities to score TD's as Wallace. I bet he has more TD's this year if they are both on the team because he has more "want to."

Wallace pouted when Brown burst onto the scene.

Crash
03-09-2012, 03:09 PM
Crash? are you kidding me? Can we get your thoughts on Wards retirement? .....:stirpot

But on your comment here...that "want to" you mention about Brown, it isnt carrying over to scoring touchdowns. Seems as if Wallace as a more "want to" when it comes to getting into the end zone. ;)

You also have to remember that Brown only started 4 games all year. We also get too pre-occupied with running the ball on 1st down in the redzone (65%, that's not "balance" is it?). Which when that fails makes 2nd and 3rd down too predictable. But what's alarming about Wallace is that if a pass isn't perfect, he barely makes any effort. Watch the deep pass at the end of the half in SF, he half-assed it all the way. If Brown was in the same spot? He gets it IMO.

Ward should do the right thing and retire. He's done. He cannot last 16 games anymore. DWTS and losing 15 pounds was supposedly going to be his cure all for a big 2011, it wasn't.

If he wants to play one season for another club for the sake of about 40 extra catches and 400 yards? That's all on him.

Dee Dub
03-09-2012, 04:33 PM
This is becoming your fall back option. You said Wallace didn't have a dramatic drop in production in the second half of the season...he did. Your not mentioning the special teams production that Wallace doesn't. It all comes down to opportunities. I don't think that Brown had the same # of opportunities to score TD's as Wallace. I bet he has more TD's this year if they are both on the team because he has more "want to."

Wallace pouted when Brown burst onto the scene.


Negative!! Look up their states. Brown was actually targeted more last year than Wallace as receiver. That would mean that Brown had more opportunities to score than Wallace.

BigRob
03-09-2012, 04:43 PM
Negative!! Look up their states. Brown was actually targeted more last year than Wallace as receiver. That would mean that Brown had more opportunities to score than Wallace.

In the Red Zone? Being targeted doesn't mean that it is an opportunity to score.

Unless you are saying that every target is designed to elicit a score. Now your being dramatic. :D

With Arians, I could almost believe that every play was designed to score a touchdown.

Dee Dub
03-09-2012, 07:21 PM
In the Red Zone? Being targeted doesn't mean that it is an opportunity to score.

Unless you are saying that every target is designed to elicit a score. Now your being dramatic. :D

With Arians, I could almost believe that every play was designed to score a touchdown.

Color it any way you want. Brown has 69 receptions but was targeted more (123 times), than Wallace (113), yet Wallace had more receptions (72), and way more TD's (8). And for the millionth time, it is Mike Wallace that get's the over the top help from opposing safeties while Antonio Brown is in single coverage.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/receiving/sort/receivingYards

BigRob
03-09-2012, 08:05 PM
And for the millionth time, it is Mike Wallace that get's the over the top help from opposing safeties while Antonio Brown is in single coverage.

Color it anyway you want.

He wasn't getting over the top help the first 8 games of the season?

Every team knew how dangerous he was from 2010. He saw the same coverages all year. It wasn't until Brown became a big time player in the 2nd half of the season that Wallace's production dropped dramatically. You can't blame the coverages for this. He was seeing them from game 1. You also can't deny that his effort went down when Brown started getting the love from Big Ben.

I would love to have both receiver's long term, but it's not going to happen. I would rather have Brown for the long term.

steelz09
03-09-2012, 11:05 PM
Color it anyway you want.

He wasn't getting over the top help the first 8 games of the season?

Every team knew how dangerous he was from 2010. He saw the same coverages all year. It wasn't until Brown became a big time player in the 2nd half of the season that Wallace's production dropped dramatically. You can't blame the coverages for this. He was seeing them from game 1. You also can't deny that his effort went down when Brown started getting the love from Big Ben.

I would love to have both receiver's long term, but it's not going to happen. I would rather have Brown for the long term.

Your elite WR's need to beat double coverage on a consistent basis. But IMO, Wallace isn't elite. I know, I know, stats will get thrown my way but I'm just calling it as I see it. Wallace is probably in the 10-15 range.

NJ-STEELER
03-11-2012, 10:22 PM
Wallace pouted when Brown burst onto the scene..........

huh?

jj28west
03-12-2012, 05:45 AM
Sorry if this was already mentioned because I am reading this before getting ready for work and I cant read all the posts.

Just by Wallace's presence on the field commands respect by the league where he sees a safety rolling over for double coverage.

Forget the box score and stats of his drop off. He should get an assist for many of Browns completions.

This is not to take anything from Brown who is awesome but allows for Brown to destroy the 1 on 1 coverage.

Oviedo
03-12-2012, 08:03 AM
Color it anyway you want.

He wasn't getting over the top help the first 8 games of the season?

Every team knew how dangerous he was from 2010. He saw the same coverages all year. It wasn't until Brown became a big time player in the 2nd half of the season that Wallace's production dropped dramatically. You can't blame the coverages for this. He was seeing them from game 1. You also can't deny that his effort went down when Brown started getting the love from Big Ben.

I would love to have both receiver's long term, but it's not going to happen. I would rather have Brown for the long term.

I share your sentiment exactly. I'd love to have both, but if Wallace wants top 5 WR money then I'd rather have him go this year and us get a Round 1 in return than go next year and get nothing.

WRs are not hard to replace. Burress leaves and we lose nothing. Holmes leaves and we lose nothing. Nate Washington left and we lost nothing (sorry...that was just comic relief). Same will happen if Wallace leaves.

I also think Brown is the more complete WR and I actually think he is a better fit for our QB and our offense. We are not a "bombs away" team and that is not what Ben is best at.

phillyesq
03-12-2012, 09:13 AM
I share your sentiment exactly. I'd love to have both, but if Wallace wants top 5 WR money then I'd rather have him go this year and us get a Round 1 in return than go next year and get nothing.

WRs are not hard to replace. Burress leaves and we lose nothing. Holmes leaves and we lose nothing. Nate Washington left and we lost nothing (sorry...that was just comic relief). Same will happen if Wallace leaves.

I also think Brown is the more complete WR and I actually think he is a better fit for our QB and our offense. We are not a "bombs away" team and that is not what Ben is best at.

With the RFA tender this year and the franchise tag next year, the Steelers could essentially get 2 years of Wallace for $12+ million, which are very team friendly terms. This gives the Steelers 2 years of Wallace, Brown and Sanders paired with Ben and Heath. In 2014, who knows if James Harrison or Troy will still be here to lead the defense. Keeping Wallace even for 2 yeras and taking a third round comp pick when he leaves allows the Steelers to play for now without really hampering them in the future.

feltdizz
03-12-2012, 09:22 AM
.........

huh?

I heard the same thing... maybe it was a rumor but there were stories that Wallace lost some confidence when Brown started getting attention. Hopefully this will motivate Wallace to be a better WR.

I would be real concerned if Wallace didn't lose confidence or had some type of issue the second half of the season. He fell of a cliff.

BigRob
03-12-2012, 11:53 AM
.........

huh?

Yep, investigate. Once Brown started getting more looks than Wallace, he started pouting in the locker room.

Chadman
03-12-2012, 07:44 PM
Chadman can see it now- if Wallace remains a Steeler, he'll be the most vilified player on the roster- an over priced one trick pony that is easily replaced.

That's what you get for 3 years solid to exceptional output.

BigRob
03-12-2012, 07:52 PM
Chadman can see it now- if Wallace remains a Steeler, he'll be the most vilified player on the roster- an over priced one trick pony that is easily replaced.

That's what you get for 3 years solid to exceptional output.

I will not vilify him. I think he can be a very valuable part of the offense. I will also not deify him as a true Calvin Johnson, Larry Fitzgerald type player.

Here's an interesting question:

How many times have the Steelers signed TWO wide receivers to large long-term deals? All I have ever said is that the Steelers will choose Antonio Brown over Mike Wallace for a long-term deal.

Chadman
03-12-2012, 08:00 PM
Honestly- Antonio Brown is easier to replace than Mike Wallace.

aggiebones
03-12-2012, 08:02 PM
He's gonna get a nice solid contract. Not bank breaking...but certainly not cheap. He has ZERO leverage right now. He needs another suitor. And one that is willing to pay MORE than the Steelers. Not only in cash, but in more cash AND a 1st rounder.

The team could add a poison pill option as well, but the only team I see doing that to the Steelers is the Pats. Its possible, but I doubt it. If it truly happens, they Steelers will hamstring another team over Wallace and we'll more on. But I imagine Wallace wants big money AND stay with the Steelers.

NJ-STEELER
03-13-2012, 01:25 AM
Honestly- Antonio Brown is easier to replace than Mike Wallace.

$$

if wally had fallen off a cliff in the 2nd half of the year, has AB even found where it is??

he still had more TDs then AB and was targeted much less.

for a team that struggles in scoring, is that something we could afford to lose??

Chadman
03-13-2012, 01:32 AM
Just to clarify- Chadman likes Antonio Brown too. But Brown is your #2 WR. He's not a #1 guy. Can you honestly believe he'd be anywhere near as effective if he was double teamed?

Chadman
03-13-2012, 02:15 AM
Steelers need speedy delivery
Tuesday, March 13, 2012
By Ron Cook (http://www.planetsteelers.com/search/archive.asp?cCat=87), Pittsburgh Post-Gazette
This might be hard to believe, but there are other players in the NFL besides Peyton Manning. A bunch will become free agents at 4 p.m. today. One is Steelers wide receiver Mike Wallace.
Let the sweating begin.
I don't think Wallace -- a restricted free agent -- is going anywhere. The Steelers have made it clear they want to do a new contract with him. When it comes to their key players, they almost always find a way to get it done.
But anything can happen in free agency. It only takes one team to make an insane offer. Should Wallace get one, the Steelers aren't likely to match it. They don't overpay for anyone. They would take a No. 1 draft choice from the team that signs Wallace and move on.
Let's hope it doesn't come to that.
The Steelers need Wallace.
I challenge you to tell me a player who has been more dangerous for them. I'm not sure they've had a player with his speed. "Freakish speed," former Steelers wide receiver Hines Ward called it last season. "Mike has the qualities of a Randy Moss. He's a special kid. He's a freak show out there."
You don't let a player like that leave.
The last thing you want to hear is that Wallace is taking his talents to South Beach or the Inner Harbor or the shores of Lake Michigan or ...
You get the idea.
Wallace needs to stay right where he's at -- on the scenic banks of the Ohio and Allegheny rivers.
The Steelers could have made sure that happened by putting their franchise tag on Wallace. That's what the New England Patriots did to keep Wes Welker, the Kansas City Chiefs did to keep Dwayne Bowe and the Philadelphia Eagles did to keep DeSean Jackson. Each of those receivers will make about $9.5 million next season. That was too pricey for the Steelers under the salary cap. Instead, they gave Wallace a one-year tender for $2,742,000. That means they can match any offer he receives or take the No. 1 pick. They are gambling that no other team will make him that outrageous offer.
It seems like a pretty good bet.
There are many good, unrestricted free-agent receivers available ---- Vincent Jackson, Brandon Lloyd, Marques Colston, Laurent Robinson, Reggie Wayne and Mario Manningham, among others. A team could get one with a big-money deal without giving up its No. 1 draft choice. It would cost the money and the pick to get Wallace. That might be just too much to give up.
If Wallace doesn't get the offer he's hoping to get, he will stay with the Steelers and have two options -- sign the one-year tender and become an unrestricted free agent after next season or do a multi-year contract. Here's a vote for the multi-year deal.
I can't get past that speed.
"He's a freak show out there ... "
Early last season, Wallace went six consecutive games with at least one catch of 40 yards or more, the first time that happened in the NFL in 11 years. In the sixth game of that run, he had a 95-yard touchdown catch against the Arizona Cardinals, the longest pass play in Steelers history. That was the 11th time he and quarterback Ben Roethlisberger combined on a touchdown play of at least 40 yards, another franchise record.
I'll write it again:
You don't let a player like that leave.
Opponents finally decided to take away the deep ball to Wallace in the second half of last season. Although his production dropped, he still had a big impact on the offense. You can't tell me the threat of his speed didn't open space for teammate Antonio Brown and the other receivers. Brown took advantage of it and had a monster year. The Steelers voted him as their most valuable player.
Brown will become a restricted free agent next season. Some have suggested the Steelers proceed cautiously with Wallace because any long-term contract he signs with them would be the starting point for Brown. I'm not so sure. I'd like to see Brown have another big season. Wallace has had three good ones in a row.
And if it comes down to one or the other?
I'll take Wallace.
That speed, you know?



Read more: http://www.postgazette.com/pg/12073/1216279-87.stm#ixzz1oyVMbUKS

NJ-STEELER
03-13-2012, 03:09 AM
With the RFA tender this year and the franchise tag next year, the Steelers could essentially get 2 years of Wallace for $12+ million, which are very team friendly terms. This gives the Steelers 2 years of Wallace, Brown and Sanders paired with Ben and Heath. In 2014, who knows if James Harrison or Troy will still be here to lead the defense. Keeping Wallace even for 2 yeras and taking a third round comp pick when he leaves allows the Steelers to play for now without really hampering them in the future.

great way to look at it.


i even did that when woodley and harrison got their extensions. some thought it was too high, but for what they made in the years prior to that.. it averaged out

RuthlessBurgher
03-13-2012, 10:25 AM
Honestly- Antonio Brown is easier to replace than Mike Wallace.

Exactly. And I LOVE what Antonio Brown brings to the table. But there are a lot of receivers in the NFL who are able to bring what Brown brings. A 6th round pick catching 69 balls for 1108 yards and 2 TD's in his second year is solid, but in the pass happy NFL, that is not necessarily anything uniquely special. On the other hand, absolutely no one else in the NFL brings what Wallace brings. The closest is Desean Jackson, but he's a head case (and as we know, head cases at WR don't last long in the Burgh). Wallace's unique ability to take the top off a defense, thus opening up the field for everyone else, while also catching 171 balls for 3206 yards (18.7 YPC average) and 24 TD's in his first 3 seasons is special (as I've noted on this board before, those numbers are on par with what Calvin Johnson, Andre Johnson, and Larry Fitzgerald did in their first 3 seasons in the league). I, for one, am hoping for some Colbert/Khan magic today...that they will somehow be able to work out a long-term deal with Wallace before free agency opens at 4:00 p.m., so no other team would even be tempted to try to sign him away from us with a front-loaded RFA tender.