PDA

View Full Version : Don't draft ILB in Round 1



BigRob
01-24-2012, 05:21 PM
I am really beginning to like Bobby Wagner, James Michael-Johnson, and Audie Cole. I don't see a need to spend a pick on ILB in round 1, when there are so many good ILB in the draft this year.

I am realllllly liking Bobby Wagner from Utah State.

Oviedo
01-24-2012, 05:24 PM
:Agree I wouldn't go ILB in Round 1 either. I would go OL or DL. If Ashlon Jeffrey was there at #24 that would really tempt me.

Dee Dub
01-24-2012, 05:56 PM
I am really beginning to like Bobby Wagner, James Michael-Johnson, and Audie Cole. I don't see a need to spend a pick on ILB in round 1, when there are so many good ILB in the draft this year.

I am realllllly liking Bobby Wagner from Utah State.

I do not agree with you. As appealing as Wagner, Michael-Johnson, and Cole may be and the value they bring in lower rounds, you will not get very much from them in year one and possibly year two. However if you draft Donta Hightower there is a chance he may come in on day one and be a starter. No one can tell me that Dick LeBeau's 3-4 is more complicated than Nick Saban's 3-4 is....Hightower excelled in it.

How many players that the Steelers can draft at 24 will give them a chance to get an immediate impact/return on their investment? I believe Hightower is one of the few.

Dee Dub
01-24-2012, 06:17 PM
:Agree I wouldn't go ILB in Round 1 either. I would go OL or DL. If Ashlon Jeffrey was there at #24 that would really tempt me.

Ok Ovi what O-line man or D-lineman at 24 would you draft that warrants that pick? Please list the ones that will be available at 24 not the ones who will go 5-10 picks prior.

And let me get this straight...you wouldnt draft a player at 24 (ILB-Donta Hightower), who fits a position of need and who has a chance to start at some point in year one but you would draft Alshon Jeffrey who doesnt fit an immediate need on the team at a position where the Steelers are set with 3 young starters? OK........ :nono

BigRob
01-24-2012, 06:39 PM
I am really beginning to like Bobby Wagner, James Michael-Johnson, and Audie Cole. I don't see a need to spend a pick on ILB in round 1, when there are so many good ILB in the draft this year.

I am realllllly liking Bobby Wagner from Utah State.

I do not agree with you. As appealing as Wagner, Michael-Johnson, and Cole may be and the value they bring in lower rounds, you will not get very much from them in year one and possibly year two. However if you draft Donta Hightower there is a chance he may come in on day one and be a starter. No one can tell me that bad word LeBeau's 3-4 is more complicated than Nick Saban's 3-4 is....Hightower excelled in it.

How many players that the Steelers can draft at 24 will give them a chance to get an immediate impact/return on their investment? I believe Hightower is one of the few.

I will give you that Hightower may be able to start in the first year, but....

.....You are making a big, big assumption. You are assuming that Hightower will start.

Name me the last rookie on the defensive side of the ball to start in a Dick Lebeau coached defense? Not going to happen.

Secondly, I think you are giving short shrift to Audie Cole and Bobby Wagner as well. They are much more polished players than you are giving them credit for being. I think either one can be a start in year 2.

Go O-line, Safety, or D-line if someone falls in round 1. Or just go straight BPA no matter what the position of the player.

Dee Dub
01-24-2012, 06:53 PM
I will give you that Hightower may be able to start in the first year, but....

.....You are making a big, big assumption. You are assuming that Hightower will start.

Name me the last rookie on the defensive side of the ball to start in a bad word Lebeau coached defense? Not going to happen.

How many Steeler rookies drafted since LeBeau was defensive coordinator played in a similar 3-4 defense? Dont you think that may have something to do with it as well? No one can tell me Hightower will struggle with getting LeBeau 3-4 when he has already excelled in Saben's 3-4.




Secondly, I think you are giving short shrift to Audie Cole and Bobby Wagner as well. They are much more polished players than you are giving them credit for being. I think either one can be a start in year 2.

Rob for the same reason you give about rookies not being able to start in LeBeu's defense is the same reason I dont think you will get much out of these guys in years 1 and possible even year 2. These guys didnt come from a 3-4 zone blitz defense.

BigRob
01-24-2012, 07:08 PM
I will give you that Hightower may be able to start in the first year, but....

.....You are making a big, big assumption. You are assuming that Hightower will start.

Name me the last rookie on the defensive side of the ball to start in a bad word Lebeau coached defense? Not going to happen.

How many Steeler rookies drafted since LeBeau was defensive coordinator played in a similar 3-4 defense? Dont you think that may have something to do with it as well? No one can tell me Hightower will struggle with getting LeBeau 3-4 when he has already excelled in Saben's 3-4.




Secondly, I think you are giving short shrift to Audie Cole and Bobby Wagner as well. They are much more polished players than you are giving them credit for being. I think either one can be a start in year 2.

Rob for the same reason you give about rookies not being able to start in LeBeu's defense is the same reason I dont think you will get much out of these guys in years 1 and possible even year 2. These guys didnt come from a 3-4 zone blitz defense.

Most guys don't play in a 3-4 in college, but still get drafted high by 3-4 teams. I don't think you can draft a player in round 1 that is not value because he played in a 3-4 in college.

I think there is better value with either Cole, Wagner, or maybe even Lavonte David after the first round. Give them a year to learn the system and they will be just as good as Hightower or better in the 3-4. I have concerns Hightower will be purely a 2 down 3-4 ILB. I think that limits us defensively.

BigRob
01-24-2012, 07:09 PM
http://www.optimumscouting.com/draft/ar ... notes.html (http://www.optimumscouting.com/draft/articles/2012-senior-bowl-tuesday-north-practice-notes.html)

-The clearcut most athletic linebacker here was Bobby Wagner of Utah State. He was very quick, smooth, and by far the most balanced in quick linebacker drills, and showed some great initial burst and quick rush moves in pass rushing drills. He didn't always show great explosion or power on film, so I'm curious to see if he can drive through traffic this week. But he sure looked the part based on drills and vs. the running backs today.

-James Michael Johnson was a bit stiff and high today in his quick linebacker drills (the same ones Bobby Wagner wowed in), and doesn't look like he transitions well in his breaks cleanly, a concern I had from film. He did show great power and some natural rush moves in pass rushing drills today however. He has the power and size of a great inside linebacker, no question, but he'll need to show a complete game to be a top three rounder. '

-Audie Cole of NC State was far more fluid and smooth as an athlete than I thought he would be. He wasn't anything outstanding or rare, but if he can move like that in drills, it shows he's more than just a very tall, lanky, somewhat position-less linebacker and could really develop into something. Nebraska linebacker Lavonte David was so forceful today in drills, vs. running backs, and in team play today. It's hard not to really like him on film because he's got great reactions, explosions well, and continously is around the ball.

Dee Dub
01-24-2012, 07:10 PM
Big Rob I'm not picking on you but watch this clip of Audie Cole in North Carolina's 4-3 and tell me that he is going to give greater value than Donta' Hightower.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OA3j41bQfk8

He takes poor angles, get's lost in traffic, isnt very good in coverage (reaction to the pass), isnt very quick side line to side line, and unless he is clean to the ball carrier struggles getting off his blocks.

Now I am not saying Audie Cole doesnt have some ability, because he does. But this is versus Louisville, not SEC football. And to think Cole wont struggle to get LeBeau's 3-4 and be a few years away from contributing would be wrong in my opinion.

NJ-STEELER
01-24-2012, 07:10 PM
I will give you that Hightower may be able to start in the first year, but....

.....You are making a big, big assumption. You are assuming that Hightower will start.

Name me the last rookie on the defensive side of the ball to start in a bad word Lebeau coached defense? Not going to happen.

How many Steeler rookies drafted since LeBeau was defensive coordinator played in a similar 3-4 defense? Dont you think that may have something to do with it as well? No one can tell me Hightower will struggle with getting LeBeau 3-4 when he has already excelled in Saben's 3-4.




Secondly, I think you are giving short shrift to Audie Cole and Bobby Wagner as well. They are much more polished players than you are giving them credit for being. I think either one can be a start in year 2.

Rob for the same reason you give about rookies not being able to start in LeBeu's defense is the same reason I dont think you will get much out of these guys in years 1 and possible even year 2. These guys didnt come from a 3-4 zone blitz defense.

does saban run a ZB scheme??

Dee Dub
01-24-2012, 07:14 PM
Most guys don't play in a 3-4 in college, but still get drafted high by 3-4 teams. I don't think you can draft a player in round 1 that is not value because he played in a 3-4 in college.


You are forgetting the fact that Hightower excelled in his teams 3-4. And the fact that he was one of the best defensive players in all of college football in probably the best conferences in college football. I think that warrants a first round grade to me. Now keep in mind when I suggested drafting Hightower number for the Steelers it was before they were eliminated by Denver. It was with the thought they would be drafting 32.

BigRob
01-24-2012, 07:15 PM
Big Rob I'm not picking on you but watch this clip of Audie Cole in North Carolina's 4-3 and tell me that he is going to give greater value than Donta' Hightower.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OA3j41bQfk8

He takes poor angles, get's lost in traffic, isnt very good in coverage (reaction to the pass), isnt very quick side line to side line, and unless he is clean to the ball carrier struggles getting off his blocks.

Now I am not saying Audie Cole doesnt have some ability, because he does. But this is versus Louisville, not SEC football. And to think Cole wont struggle to get LeBeau's 3-4 and be a few years away from contributing would be wrong in my opinion.

I don't think you are picking on me. I like discussions like these. They are healthy.

I just think you are over valuing Donte Hightower. He is not head and shoulders above Bobby Wagner, Cole, or Michael Johnson to me. I could definitely be wrong.

Dee Dub
01-24-2012, 07:16 PM
[quote=BigRob]

I will give you that Hightower may be able to start in the first year, but....

.....You are making a big, big assumption. You are assuming that Hightower will start.

Name me the last rookie on the defensive side of the ball to start in a bad word Lebeau coached defense? Not going to happen.

How many Steeler rookies drafted since LeBeau was defensive coordinator played in a similar 3-4 defense? Dont you think that may have something to do with it as well? No one can tell me Hightower will struggle with getting LeBeau 3-4 when he has already excelled in Saben's 3-4.




Secondly, I think you are giving short shrift to Audie Cole and Bobby Wagner as well. They are much more polished players than you are giving them credit for being. I think either one can be a start in year 2.

Rob for the same reason you give about rookies not being able to start in LeBeu's defense is the same reason I dont think you will get much out of these guys in years 1 and possible even year 2. These guys didnt come from a 3-4 zone blitz defense.

does saban run a ZB scheme??[/quote:3kto43sb]

Yes he does. He runs several variations of the 3-4.

Dee Dub
01-24-2012, 07:20 PM
I just think you are over valuing Donte Hightower. He is not head and shoulders above Bobby Wagner, Cole, or Michael Johnson to me. I could definitely be wrong.

But you are missing the point. Hightower will be i(head and shoulders above them), in the Steelers 3-4 defense. And he will get on the field years before those guys do.

Dee Dub
01-24-2012, 07:27 PM
Here's a great article (link), about Saban's defense and how he explains their philosophy.

“[Our] philosophy on first and second down is to stop the run and play good zone pass defense. We will occasionally play man-to-man and blitz in this situation. On third down, we will primarily play man-to-man and mix-in some zone and blitzes. We will rush four or more players versus the pass about ninety-percent of the time.

“In all situations, we will defend the inside or middle of the field first – defend inside to outside. Against the run, we will not allow the ball to be run inside. We want to force the ball outside. Against the pass, we will not allow the ball to be thrown deep down the middle or inside. We want to force the ball to be thrown short and/or outside.

“… Finally, our job is to take the ball away from the opponents’ offense and score or set up good field position for our offense. We must knock the ball loose, force mistakes, and cause turnovers. Turnovers and making big plays win games. We will be alert and aggressive and take advantage of every opportunity to come up with the ball . . . . The trademark of our defense will be effort, toughness, and no mental mistakes regarding score or situation in any game.”

http://smartfootball.blogspot.com/2009/ ... abama.html (http://smartfootball.blogspot.com/2009/06/repost-preview-of-nick-sabans-alabama.html)

I would recommend everyone reading this complete article. Good stuff.

BigRob
01-24-2012, 07:27 PM
I just think you are over valuing Donte Hightower. He is not head and shoulders above Bobby Wagner, Cole, or Michael Johnson to me. I could definitely be wrong.

But you are missing the point. Hightower will be i(head and shoulders above them), in the Steelers 3-4 defense. And he will get on the field years before those guys do.

I think the Steelers have shown that you cannot think about year 1 with defenders in this system. Its just the mindset they have. You have to think year 2 and beyond.

My point is that Hightower will not be head and shoulders better than the others by year 2 and beyond in this system.

I could very well be wrong.

Dee Dub
01-24-2012, 07:30 PM
I just think you are over valuing Donte Hightower. He is not head and shoulders above Bobby Wagner, Cole, or Michael Johnson to me. I could definitely be wrong.

But you are missing the point. Hightower will be i(head and shoulders above them), in the Steelers 3-4 defense. And he will get on the field years before those guys do.

I think the Steelers have shown that you cannot think about year 1 with defenders in this system. Its just the mindset they have. You have to think year 2 and beyond.

My point is that Hightower will not be head and shoulders better than the others by year 2 and beyond in this system.

I could very well be wrong.

Well it is a matter of opinion. Yours versus mine. And I will say, you very well may be right. I will point again though, the Steelers have never drafted a first round player who came from an almost identical 3-4 defense before. They have that chance here with Hightower. And they would be foolish to think he couldn't pick it up when in fact he already has.

BigRob
01-24-2012, 07:40 PM
[quote=BigRob]

I just think you are over valuing Donte Hightower. He is not head and shoulders above Bobby Wagner, Cole, or Michael Johnson to me. I could definitely be wrong.

But you are missing the point. Hightower will be i(head and shoulders above them), in the Steelers 3-4 defense. And he will get on the field years before those guys do.

I think the Steelers have shown that you cannot think about year 1 with defenders in this system. Its just the mindset they have. You have to think year 2 and beyond.

My point is that Hightower will not be head and shoulders better than the others by year 2 and beyond in this system.

I could very well be wrong.

Well it is a matter of opinion. Yours versus mine. And I will say, you very well may be right. I will point again though, the Steelers have never drafted a first round player who came from an almost identical 3-4 defense before. They have that chance here with Hightower. And they would be foolish to think he couldn't pick it up when in fact he already has.[/quote:2icluo5r]

I will say one point in your favor. Heyward played in a 3-4 some in college and played quite a bit as a rookie. So maybe they decide to go with Foote/Hightower combination for year 1. I would probably be ok with that.

My question is this. Is Hightower the kind of athlete that Colber/Tomlin like to draft?

Dee Dub
01-24-2012, 07:43 PM
[quote=BigRob]

I just think you are over valuing Donte Hightower. He is not head and shoulders above Bobby Wagner, Cole, or Michael Johnson to me. I could definitely be wrong.

But you are missing the point. Hightower will be i(head and shoulders above them), in the Steelers 3-4 defense. And he will get on the field years before those guys do.

I think the Steelers have shown that you cannot think about year 1 with defenders in this system. Its just the mindset they have. You have to think year 2 and beyond.

My point is that Hightower will not be head and shoulders better than the others by year 2 and beyond in this system.

I could very well be wrong.

Well it is a matter of opinion. Yours versus mine. And I will say, you very well may be right. I will point again though, the Steelers have never drafted a first round player who came from an almost identical 3-4 defense before. They have that chance here with Hightower. And they would be foolish to think he couldn't pick it up when in fact he already has.

I will say one point in your favor. Heyward played in a 3-4 some in college and played quite a bit as a rookie. So maybe they decide to go with Foote/Hightower combination for year 1. I would probably be ok with that.

My question is this. Is Hightower the kind of athlete that Colber/Tomlin like to draft?[/quote:2ajhsxgb]


I think Hightower is more consistent in his play than athletic. He can also be deceptive in his athleticism like Levon Kirkland was. Keep in mind Hightower goes about 265.

BigRob
01-24-2012, 07:48 PM
Dang, your starting to sway me to your way of thinking.

What do you think of Melvin Ingram. He is a guy that splits a lot of opinions on scouts.

Dee Dub
01-24-2012, 08:01 PM
Dang, your starting to sway me to your way of thinking.

What do you think of Melvin Ingram. He is a guy that splits a lot of opinions on scouts.

He looked awesome today in the one on ones. Mayock was saying he's the type of guy you want to move around and take advantage of his speed/burst. I think he's a bigger version of Robert Mathis of the Colts.

Dee Dub
01-24-2012, 08:04 PM
Hey Big Rob in a perfect world I would love to move back in the first round and get Hightower. I think he may be there around 28, 29, 30, but the Ravens may want him too.

BigRob
01-24-2012, 08:14 PM
Dang, your starting to sway me to your way of thinking.

What do you think of Melvin Ingram. He is a guy that splits a lot of opinions on scouts.

He looked awesome today in the one on ones. Mayock was saying he's the type of guy you want to move around and take advantage of his speed/burst. I think he's a bigger version of Robert Mathis of the Colts.

Considering Harrison's age and our lack of replacement, do you take him at 24 possibly?

Dee Dub
01-24-2012, 08:22 PM
Dang, your starting to sway me to your way of thinking.

What do you think of Melvin Ingram. He is a guy that splits a lot of opinions on scouts.

He looked awesome today in the one on ones. Mayock was saying he's the type of guy you want to move around and take advantage of his speed/burst. I think he's a bigger version of Robert Mathis of the Colts.

Considering Harrison's age and our lack of replacement, do you take him at 24 possibly?

No, if I were do that I would rather go Courtney Upshaw who aslo played in Saban's 3-4 at Alabama. But since OLB isnt an immediate need I wouldnt do either for the first round pick.

RuthlessBurgher
01-24-2012, 08:30 PM
[quote=BigRob]Dang, your starting to sway me to your way of thinking.

What do you think of Melvin Ingram. He is a guy that splits a lot of opinions on scouts.

He looked awesome today in the one on ones. Mayock was saying he's the type of guy you want to move around and take advantage of his speed/burst. I think he's a bigger version of Robert Mathis of the Colts.

Considering Harrison's age and our lack of replacement, do you take him at 24 possibly?

No, if I were do that I would rather go Courtney Upshaw who aslo played in Saban's 3-4 at Alabama. But since OLB isnt an immediate need I wouldnt do either for the first round pick.[/quote:1fgo5tyk]

Upshaw will likely be long gone (like top half of the first round)...even though OLB isn't an immediate need, what would you do if Vinny Curry were still on the board at 2.56 (after spending 2nd round picks recently on Woodley and Worilds)?

Dee Dub
01-25-2012, 12:40 AM
[quote=BigRob]Dang, your starting to sway me to your way of thinking.

What do you think of Melvin Ingram. He is a guy that splits a lot of opinions on scouts.

He looked awesome today in the one on ones. Mayock was saying he's the type of guy you want to move around and take advantage of his speed/burst. I think he's a bigger version of Robert Mathis of the Colts.

Considering Harrison's age and our lack of replacement, do you take him at 24 possibly?

No, if I were do that I would rather go Courtney Upshaw who aslo played in Saban's 3-4 at Alabama. But since OLB isnt an immediate need I wouldnt do either for the first round pick.

Upshaw will likely be long gone (like top half of the first round)...even though OLB isn't an immediate need, what would you do if Vinny Curry were still on the board at 2.56 (after spending 2nd round picks recently on Woodley and Worilds)?[/quote:3p7xnyaz]

That would be a tough one Ruthless. Curry could be the next Demarcus Ware. Back during the middle of the college season when I did one of my first Steeler drafts I actually had Curry in the second round for the Steelers. I think I would have to know who else is there at or around 56. I'll tell you another guy shooting up the draft board and is considered a mid-second round pick is Notre Dame's FS Harrison Smith. Curry would be my preference over Smith because of his big play ability. But I am keeping an eye on NT Brandon Thompson. For some reason he is falling (early second now), and I cant figure that out.

If Curry was the choice you maybe able to trade Jason Worilds. Now Curry with another pick sounds pretty good to me.

Shoe
01-25-2012, 02:16 AM
Considering Harrison's age and our lack of replacement, do you take him at 24 possibly?

We already have Worilds. And we have Chris Carter from Fresno St in the wings. You guys don't think that's enough??

Mister Pittsburgh
01-25-2012, 02:46 PM
I don't think Tomlin would ever draft Audie Cole.

JUST-PLAIN-NASTY
01-25-2012, 04:11 PM
I'm having a hard time seeing anyone being picked on the offensive side of the ball besides DeCastro or Glenn. Adams & Sanders don't seem to be #24 grades. So if those two are gone...What positions on D do you see them drafting? In our range...There is one 1st round S prospect, 2 possible 1st round NT prospects, & 3 possible 1st round ILBs. I wouldn't count out OLB either. The scales are tipped right now in favor of the defense and being that the ILB position has some players graded out there...I would say there is a realistic possibility it could be an ILB.

I think the early picks are going to come down more to needs relating to slotting. The "needs" will be more visible come March. I suspect the Steelers will need a starter at G, a rotational NT who will need to start by 2013 or sooner, a young S to be ready to start beyond 2013, and an ILB who has to be brought into the system to start in the near future. By "slotting" I mean where the positions grade out. This draft looks to have capable Gs to start as deep as the 3rd. So if DeCastro & Glenn are gone in the 1st, it can be addressed later. ILB is a need but I am getting the feeling that one of Farrior or Foote will be here for one more year. Still is a big need and a rookie may unseat him, but it may be a position they feel is the least of a concern of the 4 for 2012. They will need to get a young S on board here this year to groom to start. The top is weak but there seems to be some good prospects in rounds 2-4. Which brings me to NT. Based on Hampton's performance, age, and cap hit after March 1....I believe he may be a cap casualty. I do believe the Steelers think they have enough in place to hold that position down for the early part of the season on the roster. However, a big body will be needed and will see significant time in the rotation early. Since a NT is a different type of animal their value seems to sky rocket and the run seems to always be in the first two rounds to get a player to solidify that position for the future. This draft looks pretty good for the Steelers in rounds 1 & 2 to fill that void. I wouldn't rule out any of those four positions in the 1st if a player is graded there. I feel they will address NT by the 2nd, and the positions that are left will be in the 3rd & 4th. It looks like players will grade out well for the Steelers needs throught the 1st three rounds.

pfelix73
01-25-2012, 08:31 PM
IF Hightower is still there where we pick- it's a no brainer. He's a playmaker, and that's what we need right now. If need be, trade up...

:tt1