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flippy
01-18-2012, 10:18 AM
The more I think about it, the more I come to the conclusion, we need to overhaul the DLine. We need to be able to control the LOS and pressure the QB with 3-4 guys.

The best teams in football control the LOS with their front 3 or 4. And we can't generate any pressure even when we blitz. And it's the weakness of our front 3.

Smitty's done. Hoke's done. Hampton might be done.

Keisel's playing at a high level. I don't know what we've got in Ziggy, Heyward, McClendon? But with these guys, I'm not sure we've got a dominant front. There's no one in that front that puts the fear of God in opposing offenses.

And if no one up front dominates, our OLBs are less effective. Our run defense is becoming suspect. And it's gonna put a lot of pressure on our secondary.

We need a Ngata, Suh, Smith, Seymore, etc.

Look at what Osi is doing to the complexion of the entire Giant's defense.

We need that one stud on the DLine. And it will make all the difference in the world on our defense.

Right now we're very mediocre across the board. And that's our biggest problem.

steelblood
01-18-2012, 10:39 AM
The more I think about it, the more I come to the conclusion, we need to overhaul the DLine. We need to be able to control the LOS and pressure the QB with 3-4 guys.

The best teams in football control the LOS with their front 3 or 4. And we can't generate any pressure even when we blitz. And it's the weakness of our front 3.

Smitty's done. Hoke's done. Hampton might be done.

Keisel's playing at a high level. I don't know what we've got in Ziggy, Heyward, McClendon? But with these guys, I'm not sure we've got a dominant front. There's no one in that front that puts the fear of God in opposing offenses.

And if no one up front dominates, our OLBs are less effective. Our run defense is becoming suspect. And it's gonna put a lot of pressure on our secondary.

We need a Ngata, Suh, Smith, Seymore, etc.

Look at what Osi is doing to the complexion of the entire Giant's defense.

We need that one stud on the DLine. And it will make all the difference in the world on our defense.

Right now we're very mediocre across the board. And that's our biggest problem.

I don't disagree Flippy.

But, I think Heyward and Keisel are both decent pass rushers for big guys. I think both are capable of 5-6 sacks next season and lots of QB pressures. Finding another pass rusher to add to these guys and Harrison and Wood though would be a good idea. It would be nice to get a consistent rush with 4 guys.

drprwnap
01-18-2012, 11:36 AM
Sorry Flip, I gotta disagree. Our biggest need is OL. We need to score more points and have a defense good enough to make a few plays in a game. With the new rules, you can't put a defense on the field that will dominate consistently.

steeler_fan_in_t.o.
01-18-2012, 12:27 PM
I agree that we need to upgrade our DL, but it is far from our biggest need.

Our starting OL next season looks like:

LT Gilbert - coming off a rookie year and moving positions
LG Legursky - unsigned and not starting material
OC Pouncey - coming off of his second straight season ending injury
RG Foster - *see Legursky
RT Colon - Coming off of his second straight missed season and IMO not worth the big contract he signed.

Backups - J Scott, C Scott, Turner, Malecki

Assume - FA Essex doesn't return, and cut Kemo. I would also cut J Scott, but thats me.

And this is a unit that was already sub par.

grotonsteel
01-18-2012, 12:35 PM
I agree that we need to upgrade our DL, but it is far from our biggest need.

Our starting OL next season looks like:

LT Gilbert - coming off a rookie year and moving positions
LG Legursky - unsigned and not starting material
OC Pouncey - coming off of his second straight season ending injury
RG Foster - *see Legursky
RT Colon - Coming off of his second straight missed season and IMO not worth the big contract he signed.

Backups - J Scott, C Scott, Turner, Malecki

Assume - FA Essex doesn't return, and cut Kemo. I would also cut J Scott, but thats me.

And this is a unit that was already sub par.


:Agree

Steelers need to draft 2 O-lineman in draft or get some O-line in FA. Steelers need to have a stable O-line. O-line keeps changing every other game. How can we expect a consistent offense when we are not set in trenches on the Offense.

Steelers drafted 2 D-linemen in Rd 1 in last 3 years. And even after that if Steelers biggest need is DLine then i think something went wrong big time.

I am not impressed with Hood. I expected more from him in year 3. It seems he has regressed. And if Steelers are looking for Dlineman to occupy 2 blockers well you can get that in rd2 - rd 4 of the draft.

I am all for drafting Poe in rd 2. If he is available at 24 i will take a hard look at him.Some people say Dontari Poe plays like Haloti Ngata. If that is the case i would even trade up to draft him. Poe is the only D-lineman i would consider at 24.

StarSpangledSteeler
01-18-2012, 12:38 PM
1) I agree that we need to get more pressure. But I don't agree that a complete DL overhaul is how to do that. Our pressure needs to come from our LB's. When your top 2 pro-bowl OLB's are hobbled with injuries for most of the season you are going to suffer. When they come back healthy next year we will be fine.

2) LeBeau's 3-4 is designed for D-Lineman who can stop the run and draw double teams - not rush the passer. That's who we've drafted. If we want pass rushers we should switch to a 4-3. If our 3 DL start going balls out for the QB it opens up gaps that leave us highly vulnerable in other areas (cut backs, screens, etc).

3) Our defense is ranked #1 in many categories. Our offense is ranked #21 in points scored. I don't understand how you can look at the actual numbers and think DL is our biggest problem. It is a problem, yes. But to say it is our biggest need is clearly off base.

4) I believe our biggest need is OL. There are many times when Ben takes sacks because he holds the ball too long. But there are also many many many times that opposing defenses blow right through our OL like a turnstyle. You can't put Foster and Legursky on the field and expect either one to slow down Ngata. But Carl Nicks can. Jhari Evans can. We need to draft stronger guards. That is our biggest need.

5) The NFL is now a passing league. If we want to win we must come to grips with that fact. I'm not suggesting we throw defense out the window I'm suggesting we get into balance. And right now our scoring is way out of balance. Way to low. That should be our focus. Drafting elite OL will help our passing game AND running game. And lengthen the career of our franchise QB.

Dee Dub
01-18-2012, 12:40 PM
How can that be the biggest need on the Steelers when they have all three starters set for 2012? The Steelers have already said they are going to look at Ziggy moving to NT. So with Heyward, Hood, and Keisel in place I dont see that as the biggest need.

pittpete
01-18-2012, 02:04 PM
Disagree, O-line is our biggest need right now.
We never generate much pressure from the DL any way.

papillon
01-18-2012, 02:21 PM
If the defensive line is the Steelers greatest need then something has gone horribly wrong in the past few draft classes.

Pappy

phillyesq
01-18-2012, 03:34 PM
How can that be the biggest need on the Steelers when they have all three starters set for 2012? The Steelers have already said they are going to look at Ziggy moving to NT. So with Heyward, Hood, and Keisel in place I dont see that as the biggest need.

Have the Steelers said this? I saw Ed Bouchette suggest this as a hypothetical option, but I have not read where anybody from the Steelers has said or suggeted this.

Dee Dub
01-18-2012, 03:38 PM
How can that be the biggest need on the Steelers when they have all three starters set for 2012? The Steelers have already said they are going to look at Ziggy moving to NT. So with Heyward, Hood, and Keisel in place I dont see that as the biggest need.

Have the Steelers said this? I saw Ed Bouchette suggest this as a hypothetical option, but I have not read where anybody from the Steelers has said or suggeted this.

Maybe I misread that. If I did sorry. I thought Bouchette was saying they were going to give him a shot at it.

Oviedo
01-18-2012, 04:19 PM
1) I agree that we need to get more pressure. But I don't agree that a complete DL overhaul is how to do that. Our pressure needs to come from our LB's. When your top 2 pro-bowl OLB's are hobbled with injuries for most of the season you are going to suffer. When they come back healthy next year we will be fine.

2) LeBeau's 3-4 is designed for D-Lineman who can stop the run and draw double teams - not rush the passer. That's who we've drafted. If we want pass rushers we should switch to a 4-3. If our 3 DL start going balls out for the QB it opens up gaps that leave us highly vulnerable in other areas (cut backs, screens, etc).

3) Our defense is ranked #1 in many categories. Our offense is ranked #21 in points scored. I don't understand how you can look at the actual numbers and think DL is our biggest problem. It is a problem, yes. But to say it is our biggest need is clearly off base.

4) I believe our biggest need is OL. There are many times when Ben takes sacks because he holds the ball too long. But there are also many many many times that opposing defenses blow right through our OL like a turnstyle. You can't put Foster and Legursky on the field and expect either one to slow down Ngata. But Carl Nicks can. Jhari Evans can. We need to draft stronger guards. That is our biggest need.

5) The NFL is now a passing league. If we want to win we must come to grips with that fact. I'm not suggesting we throw defense out the window I'm suggesting we get into balance. And right now our scoring is way out of balance. Way to low. That should be our focus. Drafting elite OL will help our passing game AND running game. And lengthen the career of our franchise QB.

:Agree Play the 4-3 it becomes a whole lot easy to find the right players for your DL.

As much as I would like to beef up the DL to be equal to that of the Ratbirds, the greater need is protecting Ben because without him on the field we have no season anyway.

phillyesq
01-18-2012, 05:34 PM
:Agree Play the 4-3 it becomes a whole lot easy to find the right players for your DL.

As much as I would like to beef up the DL to be equal to that of the Ratbirds, the greater need is protecting Ben because without him on the field we have no season anyway.

If, as you say, it is easier to find the right players for a 4-3 defense, then why is the franchise tag for a defensive end significantly higher than that for a LB? The last numbers I saw listed a DE at $10.6 million, and a LB at $8.8 million.

In fact, the tender for a DE is second only to that for a QB (CB is tied with DE, but the CB market has been skewed by Al Davis and the Jets, among other anomolies).

The franchise values show a realization that a franchise QB is the rarest commodity, and that a franchise DE is the second rarest commodity, thus directly contradicting your premise that it is easier to find the key piece in a 4-3 (a DE) than it is to find the key pieces in a 3-4 (OLB).

fezziwig
01-18-2012, 07:54 PM
Just seems as if there are too many areas to fix. I'm one of the ones disappointed in Hoods performance this season. Im hoping that that changes around for us and he can fill the shoes of Smith but, that's a tall order.
Given that we do have Heyward and Hood and hoping again that they can take it to the next level with them both being number one picks, the Steelers will probably look at other areas to fill.

I'd love for us to draft a nose tackle that can make an impact coming out of the gate. Big wish for fezziwig and the Steelers.

McClendon I was high on at the start but he too looked over matched at times.

To get a stud defensive lineman at any of the positions doesn't seem to me like that person will be there during the draft or free agency. With our salary cap, you might as well forget about bringing in an impact free agent.

We will probably take best available player at the time of our pick and it probably won't be an area of need.

Finding another Gildert ( that I thouoght did well ) isn't going to be easy but, it could happen.

Our defense is so complicated drafting or signing a free agent linebacker will be something for the future and no immediate production out of him for the new season.

So having said all that, I would still say we should go for a nose tackle, keep Hampton if we can or release Hampton, tread water with McClendon until our new nose tackle goes through the growing pains. A tough nose tackle could make Kiesels/Heyward/Hoods job easier.

I bet you they keep Kemo and possibly place him in some training during the off season if, he wants to remain a Steeler. The dude needs to get his head on straight, lift more weights and stop making bone head plays.

Colon, Pouncey seem to me are going to be the type of players that will always be injured. Just like Troy.

Having mentioned Troy, the Steelers may possibly draft a safety to replace Troy someday because he's another one we just can let go/retire without having someone to step up and fill his shoes.

Again, we have many areas of need so, they might as well take best athlete available.

winwithd
01-18-2012, 10:05 PM
Kemo's knee problems at midseason sounded to me like the type of thing that doesnt go away. Arthritic or something? When I read that, I figured he would not be back next year because (and esp. at his weight) that is going to be a recurring problem and why would anyone want a player that cant stay healthy. And isnt that great when he is healthy.

NJ-STEELER
01-18-2012, 10:20 PM
in the 3-4 system we play, i think its crazy to be drafting 3 DL in the span of 4 years.

i'd have no problem with it if we were a 3-4 and relied on these guys to be playmakers (NY giants as an example).

or even a more aggressive style 3-4. i'm still questioning the last two #1 DLs we've picked cause im not seeing any of the pass rush ability that described them

Chadman
01-19-2012, 12:08 AM
Chadman has no problem with Flippy's call. In fact, Chadman agrees- DL is a priority, particularly when you consider that both Smith & Hoke are likely gone, and Hampton quite possibly too. Add to that, Keisel is 33.

If the Steelers had planned for the deterioration of the DL 5 years ago, we wouldn't be in a position where 2 of the last 3 drafts have provided D-Lineman in the 1st round. But the team hadn't prepared for it adequately, and the result is- we see that the bulk of the DL is at the end of their careers at the same time.

For those that feel Hood isn't playing up to expectations, Chadman says this- by re-signing Smith & Keisel the last few years, it's obvious that Hood wasn't meant to be starting yet. The fact that Smith hasn't been able to finish the last 2 seasons has pushed Hood, prematurely, into a starting role. Is he dominant yet? No, but he's solid. He's strong at the point of attack, which ensures the run defense is still strong. For Chadman, Hood was the pick of the DL against the Broncos, and through the season never looked out of his depth at all.

The drafting of Hood & Heyward in the 1st round has produced expectations of elite pass-rushers it would seem. Both guys are very good at rushing the passer, in their own way (Heyward looks very promising), but the chances of ever seeing them reach double-digit sacks are slim. That doesn't mean they are not good at pass rushing, just the defense is not designed for those sorts of results. If they can produce enough pressure to close the pocket, they've done their job well. This didn't happen much last season, but there are many reasons for this, not least of which is that Hampton's play regressed somewhat & produced very little pass rush himself, allowing Keisel & Hood to get more blockers put in front of them.

phillyesq
01-19-2012, 08:55 AM
Chadman has no problem with Flippy's call. In fact, Chadman agrees- DL is a priority, particularly when you consider that both Smith & Hoke are likely gone, and Hampton quite possibly too. Add to that, Keisel is 33.

If the Steelers had planned for the deterioration of the DL 5 years ago, we wouldn't be in a position where 2 of the last 3 drafts have provided D-Lineman in the 1st round. But the team hadn't prepared for it adequately, and the result is- we see that the bulk of the DL is at the end of their careers at the same time.

For those that feel Hood isn't playing up to expectations, Chadman says this- by re-signing Smith & Keisel the last few years, it's obvious that Hood wasn't meant to be starting yet. The fact that Smith hasn't been able to finish the last 2 seasons has pushed Hood, prematurely, into a starting role. Is he dominant yet? No, but he's solid. He's strong at the point of attack, which ensures the run defense is still strong. For Chadman, Hood was the pick of the DL against the Broncos, and through the season never looked out of his depth at all.

The drafting of Hood & Heyward in the 1st round has produced expectations of elite pass-rushers it would seem. Both guys are very good at rushing the passer, in their own way (Heyward looks very promising), but the chances of ever seeing them reach double-digit sacks are slim. That doesn't mean they are not good at pass rushing, just the defense is not designed for those sorts of results. If they can produce enough pressure to close the pocket, they've done their job well. This didn't happen much last season, but there are many reasons for this, not least of which is that Hampton's play regressed somewhat & produced very little pass rush himself, allowing Keisel & Hood to get more blockers put in front of them.

Chadman, I'm going to disagree with you on a few things. First, the Steelers brought in a number of developmental DEs in the mid-late rounds that did not work out - Orien Harris and Ryan McBean come to mind. It isn't that the Steelers didn't plan; they just did not execute well. Further, in the NFL today, you can't draft somebody that is starting caliber and have them sit on the bench for 5 years. If they are a player, they'll leave.

As for Ziggy Hood, I don't expect him to be an elite level pass rusher - he was never projected as an elite rusher coming out of college. This year, I didn't see anything from him in the way of pass rush ability. His play regressed from last year. The DEs in the 3-4 are not likely to be double digit sack guys, but recording something along the lines of 5-8 sacks is not out of the question. I don't think Ziggy is a bust, but so far, he hasn't shown the ability to push the pocket on passing downs to produce to that level. Hopefully next year he turns things on.

Heyward did not get a lot of playing time, but he did flash potential. It wouldn't surprise me if he ends up the better of the two players.

hawaiiansteel
01-21-2012, 01:01 AM
Changes likely in veteran D-line

Friday, January 20, 2012
By Ed Bouchette, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/images/201201/aaronsmith1_160.jpg

Steelers defensive lineman Aaron Smith's future status with the team is still up in the air.

Aaron Smith looked emaciated the week before the Steelers season ended in Denver. The 13-year veteran had lost 20 pounds after his neck injury and resulting surgery ended yet another season way too short, this one after four games.

It followed a 2010 season that lasted only six games (torn triceps), an '09 season that lasted five (torn rotator cuff) and an '07 season that lasted 11 (torn biceps). He will turn 36 in April, and it has been assumed since he was put on injured reserve that he has seen his last football. Presumed by others, perhaps, but not necessarily by Smith.

"I'm sure they'll have to come to me," he said, reaffirming that he might not know when to call it quits. "I'm sure it will be more along the lines of, 'Hey, you might want to make that call.' "

The Steelers are in the process of determining the futures of Smith and other longtime, venerable veterans as it pertains to next season. Team president Art Rooney said Tuesday that, especially because they are $25 million over the salary cap, the Steelers face "some tough decisions."

Nowhere might those decisions cut so deeply as in their defensive line. Perhaps three of their top four linemen over the past half decade could be in jeopardy of not being with them for training camp in August.

Those include Smith, their starting left defensive end since his second season in 2000; Casey Hampton, their starting nose tackle since his rookie season in '01, and Chris Hoke, their top backup lineman, mostly at nose tackle, since '04. Hoke also had neck surgery that ended his '11 season.

Truly, they will be tough decisions for Rooney, his personnel men and coaches. The three have been through five AFC championship games, three Super Bowls and each own two Super Bowl rings. They have been part of the best defensive line to perform for the Steelers in the 30 years they have run the 3-4 as their base defense.

But, like the best 4-3 defensive line in their or maybe football history, the Steel Curtain of the 1970s, it might be time for the Steelers to move on. Joe Greene, L.C. Greenwood, Dwight White and Ernie Holmes saw that day come, too.

"Yeah, we're all getting older," Smith acknowledged. "We can't go forever, although we'd like to. I don't know whether it's this year or next year."

The Steelers have prepared for this day. They drafted defensive end Cameron Heyward in the first round last year, two years after they drafted defensive end Ziggy Hood in the first round. Hood started every game at left end this past season after Smith's injury.

The other veteran, right defensive end Brett Keisel had one of his best seasons at 33 and should not be among the tough decisions.

But Hampton could be. He is due $8 million and will turn 35 before next season begins. On the other hand, the only other nose tackle is Steve McLendon, who began the season on the practice squad and filled in at nose tackle. No one knows if he could handle the position full time, and they have no obvious backup.

There have been discussions about Hood possibly moving to nose tackle, where he has practiced and where, in essence, he has lined up in some passing situations. At a listed 300 pounds, he weighs maybe 50 pounds less than Hampton, but there is more than one way to play nose tackle, and it does not always have to be played by short, squat linemen. Hoke, for example, is listed at 305 pounds, and he started 10 games -- all victories -- and played well for an injured Hampton in '04.

If they move Hood to nose tackle, they would move Heyward up to starter but would need to find depth at end. They have good regard for prospect Al Woods, but he ended the season as their only other end. If Hampton and Hoke are not here next season and they do not move Hood, they need to draft a nose tackle. Whoever it is, Smith said he has no doubt they will find someone capable as they have done for years in their defensive line.

"Oh, yeah, they always bring in the same character for all the guys, and they don't miss a beat. The next guy comes in, and they keep going."

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/12020/12 ... z1k3v5q53V (http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/12020/1204707-66-0.stm#ixzz1k3v5q53V)

SteelTorch
01-21-2012, 01:21 AM
Why is this even a thread? We have Hood and Heyward, both who have been drafted in the first couple rounds. And our D-line, while not spectacular, was far from bad.

Let's instead focus on getting ourselves some new guards. Preferably ones that don't suck.

SS Laser
01-21-2012, 05:12 PM
If Hampton does not want to take a pay cut and does not come back. Lets say Ziggy is a DE not NT. Wonder what Aubrayo Franklin would cost in free agency? He was a NT with the 49'ers. Play with the Saints at DT on a 1 year contract for 2011. Here is more info:

"In the 2011 offseason free agency period the San Francisco 49ers let Aubrayo Franklin depart for the New Orleans Saints. The 49ers did that for a reason.

In two games this postseason Franklin posted one tackle. On the season Franklin had 17 total tackles. He was what some would call a bust for the Saints after coming off of impressive seasons with the 49ers.

The problem with Franklin is that he was effective as a nose tackle in a 3-4 with San Francisco, but struggled in a 4-3 with New Orleans.

Franklin joined a plethora of veterans that only signed one-year deals last offseason because of the lockout. Franklin had the perfect opportunity this offseason to show NFL teams he still has it. Now Franklin will struggle to find a team that wants to pay him anything at all."

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1031 ... _query=NFL (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1031740-10-nfl-free-agents-who-lost-the-most-money-this-postseason?search_query=NFL) free agents#/articles/1031740-10-nfl-free-agents-who-lost-the-most-money-this-postseason/page/4

Maybe for a 2yr contract? At 31 would anyone here do it?

Dresden
01-21-2012, 05:48 PM
Why is this even a thread? We have Hood and Heyward, both who have been drafted in the first couple rounds. And our D-line, while not spectacular, was far from bad.

Let's instead focus on getting ourselves some new guards. Preferably ones that don't suck.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that the D-line is an issue here (and should be one as far as the team is concerned) because our line is no where near as effective as they once were with Aaron, and Hamp up front along with Kimo or Keisel.

Now when you consider that we have no quality replacement for Hamp (who's almost done) and we have maybe potentially one End that could possibly even be on Keisel's level in Heyward , with NO ONE to replace Aaron's impact,...we are in trouble there (D-line) sir.

Bottom line,.... outside of Coach Cowher's vets whose time is running/run out,....we do not have the personnel up front to properly run a 34 defense.

We have Hood who is a backup quality 4-3 defensive tackle that was merely solid at that position in College,..and couple other 'just a guy' players like him to be pushed around up front by single blockers.

I know that EVERY year many are screaming O-line at the top of their lungs as a means to blame that unit for Roethlisberger, Rashard and the rest of the offense being inept and inconsistent,...but our defense is the lifeblood of this franchise.

If we continue to draft to simply placate Roethlisberger and Tomlin's "very average, but i like the kid" philosophy,.....the aforementioned Defense gets progressively worse and the offense just simply remains as ridiculous and unable score.

IMO that's a recipe for disaster.

fezziwig
01-21-2012, 07:08 PM
Aaron Smith will always be one of my favorite Steelers and this dude was a foootball player thru n thru. As much as I think of him, they should let him go. He's been injured way too much and age is n't exactly on his side.

I feel the same way about farrior. I was excited to get Farrior and thought he was a steal at that but, he is a servicable guy but we need more than just treading water type players. We need guys with a spark a snap in their step and we need to get younger.
Harrison and Kiesel are old enough for me and allow them to be the senior players.

Foote does a decent job but if they have someone they think can step up for him then, I'd say let him go too.
We are going to need to see what Heyward/Ziggy possibly McClendon can do if we don't bring back Hampton or draft a nose tackle. '''I say this team needs a first round nose tackle if the quality is there and I say that about the offensive line too. What ever best player is there for either one of the lines should be snatched up by the Steelers.

I'm a firm believer the games are won or lost in the trenches.

Dresden
01-21-2012, 08:07 PM
Aaron Smith will always be one of my favorite Steelers and this dude was a foootball player thru n thru. As much as I think of him, they should let him go. He's been injured way too much and age is n't exactly on his side.

I feel the same way about farrior. I was excited to get Farrior and thought he was a steal at that but, he is a servicable guy but we need more than just treading water type players. We need guys with a spark a snap in their step and we need to get younger.
Harrison and Kiesel are old enough for me and allow them to be the senior players.

Foote does a decent job but if they have someone they think can step up for him then, I'd say let him go too.
We are going to need to see what Heyward/Ziggy possibly McClendon can do if we don't bring back Hampton or draft a nose tackle. '''I say this team needs a first round nose tackle if the quality is there and I say that about the offensive line too. What ever best player is there for either one of the lines should be snatched up by the Steelers.

I'm a firm believer the games are won or lost in the trenches.


Many do not realize the nature of the impact that Aaron being the almost prototypical 3-4 end, Hamp being very nearly the same at NT and Potsie playing lights out inside had on our front seven. I have nothing but the greatest of respect, appreciation and affinity for all three especially Aaron.

Time unfortunately catches up with everyone, and as such the days of their dominance is no more. And i have seen absolutely nothing to suggest that Hood is not a bust and Mclendon and others are not merely 'bodies' and or cannon fodder.

I agree with you in terms of the importance of the productivity that one has in the trenches on both sides of the ball. I just think that we have more of a greater need there on the Defensive side. Along with the need of a truly special ILB.

Needs that i feel that we should have addressed quite some time ago instead of wasting 1st round selections on players like Hood, Timmons, and Mendenhall and other picks on guys like Worilds, Sweed, Gay, Lewis, Burnett, Sonny Harris, etc. And that's not to mention trading up to draft a damn punter to model a sweatsuit every other season. :roll:

RuthlessBurgher
01-21-2012, 08:49 PM
Needs that i feel that we should have addressed quite some time ago instead of wasting 1st round selections on players like Hood, Timmons, and Mendenhall and other picks on guys like Worilds, Sweed, Gay, Lewis, Burnett, Sonny Harris, etc. And that's not to mention trading up to draft a damn punter to model a sweatsuit every other season. :roll:

How dare our scouting department not draft 7 Hall of Famers every year!!! The nerve of them!!! Fire them all now!!!

Captain Lemming
01-21-2012, 10:05 PM
Many do not realize the nature of the impact that Aaron being the almost prototypical 3-4 end,

Didnt miss a beat in 2010. With Ziggy who is now deemed inadequate we set defensive records. Better run D than any healthy Smith year. 3-4 Dline supposed to free up Lbers? Woodley who lines up next to Smitty had a career season, more sacks on that side in a DECADE BY JASON GILDON (both had 13.5).

This year, almost entirely without Smitty, Woodley was on a team record 18 sack pace when he got hurt.


Hamp being very nearly the same at NT

Are we not close to undefeated when Hoke starts? I dont see how that makes him so valuable.

Like I alway say it is about the LBers PERIOD.

Injuries to our LBers were the problem.

In their prime this was a very good Dline. But Steeler fans think it was way better then it is.

Save for fat Casey, under Cowher we never needed to spend high picks on Dlinemen. We have been just fine. Now we need to do it three years in a ROW???? I dont think so.

We need Olinemen and we need them NOW.

We cannot score because we cannot run with consistency.

Give me not one but TWO guards on the first day of this draft and our offense with be a beast.

Steel Life
01-21-2012, 11:17 PM
My take on it is this...if you have a chance to draft an "impact" player - like I think Dontari Poe is - you do it because it makes other players better. While the DL has been restocked somewhat over the past couple of years with Hood & Heyward (& to some degree McClendon), the sudden loss of of both Smith & Hoke plus Snack's uncertain future creates a demand for another potential starter who can step in right away - quite possibly from day one of camp. I was a okay with the selection of Hood (who is solid) & I was happy with drafting Heyward (as in most years he would've been a top-half of the draft kind of player), I think it would be both prudent to go after another DLineman (read: NT) especially if he could be an impact player that would anchor our line for the next 8 to 10 years. And while we can debate the merit of individual players, the need remains the same. In the end my view is that I would rather take advantage of our lower drafting position to grab a potential star on the DL rather than reach for an O-Lineman.

fezziwig
01-22-2012, 11:06 AM
We have done very well with Hoke, is his time really up as some seem to think ?

phillyesq
01-22-2012, 12:59 PM
We have done very well with Hoke, is his time really up as some seem to think ?

Not confirmed, but he's expected to retire. I believe that he had neck surgery.

Dresden
01-24-2012, 12:22 AM
[quote]Many do not realize the nature of the impact that Aaron being the almost prototypical 3-4 end,

Didnt miss a beat in 2010. With Ziggy who is now deemed inadequate we set defensive records. Better run D than any healthy Smith year. 3-4 Dline supposed to free up Lbers? Woodley who lines up next to Smitty had a career season, more sacks on that side in a DECADE BY JASON GILDON (both had 13.5).

This year, almost entirely without Smitty, Woodley was on a team record 18 sack pace when he got hurt.


Hamp being very nearly the same at NT

Are we not close to undefeated when Hoke starts? I dont see how that makes him so valuable.

Like I alway say it is about the LBers PERIOD.

Injuries to our LBers were the problem.

In their prime this was a very good Dline. But Steeler fans think it was way better then it is.

Save for fat Casey, under Cowher we never needed to spend high picks on Dlinemen. We have been just fine. Now we need to do it three years in a ROW???? I dont think so.

We need Olinemen and we need them NOW.

We cannot score because we cannot run with consistency.

Give me not one but TWO guards on the first day of this draft and our offense with be a beast.[/quote:227juncl]


Say what you want Cap as you are entitled to as much. But we do not have a single Inside Backer, NT or End on our roster that is anywhere near the players that Potsie, Hamp and Aaron were near and or at their respective 'peaks'.

And attempting to run a 3-4 lacking as much,.. even without a sub standard secondary ,.....is nearly pointless.

Chadman
01-24-2012, 01:13 AM
Say what you want Cap as you are entitled to as much. But we do not have a single Inside Backer, NT or End on our roster that is anywhere near the players that Potsie, Hamp and Aaron were near and or at their respective 'peaks'.

And attempting to run a 3-4 lacking as much,.. even without a sub standard secondary ,.....is nearly pointless.

To be fair though- Hood & Heyward are barely scraping their talent peak at this point in their careers. Heyward may develop quicker as he came from a system that played a 3-4 at times. Hood is a 4-3 DT learning to play 3-4 DE on the run. He may never be the player Aaron Smith was- few are- but he's certainly a servicable starting 3-4 DE from what we've seen. Heyward looks very promising, and his body-type leads Chadman to believe he could be a dominant player if he reaches his potential.

Chadman will agree with you on the need for a NT & ILB. No 3-4 will function without a good NT. The Steelers have been blessed to have Joel Steed followed by Casey Hampton- 2 excellent 3-4 NT's. Steve McLendon looks servicable, but he's certainly not lokoing a dominant player. He could be Chris Hoke going forward. A big, strong NT that can occupy 2 blockers on every snap will enable the rest of the front 7 to play at a higher level. ILB- the Steelers have allowed Farrior to play beyond his good years & into his twilight years with no real future plan in place- unless Stevenson Sylvester is better than what Chadman has seen. Chadman would expect we'll see Larry Foote play in place of Farrior- certainly not a bad fall-back plan, if not long term. But a future ILB is required, be it this draft or the next.

Dresden
01-24-2012, 02:43 AM
Say what you want Cap as you are entitled to as much. But we do not have a single Inside Backer, NT or End on our roster that is anywhere near the players that Potsie, Hamp and Aaron were near and or at their respective 'peaks'.

And attempting to run a 3-4 lacking as much,.. even without a sub standard secondary ,.....is nearly pointless.

To be fair though- Hood & Heyward are barely scraping their talent peak at this point in their careers. Heyward may develop quicker as he came from a system that played a 3-4 at times. Hood is a 4-3 DT learning to play 3-4 DE on the run. He may never be the player Aaron Smith was- few are- but he's certainly a servicable starting 3-4 DE from what we've seen. Heyward looks very promising, and his body-type leads Chadman to believe he could be a dominant player if he reaches his potential.

Chadman will agree with you on the need for a NT & ILB. No 3-4 will function without a good NT. The Steelers have been blessed to have Joel Steed followed by Casey Hampton- 2 excellent 3-4 NT's. Steve McLendon looks servicable, but he's certainly not lokoing a dominant player. He could be Chris Hoke going forward. A big, strong NT that can occupy 2 blockers on every snap will enable the rest of the front 7 to play at a higher level. ILB- the Steelers have allowed Farrior to play beyond his good years & into his twilight years with no real future plan in place- unless Stevenson Sylvester is better than what Chadman has seen. Chadman would expect we'll see Larry Foote play in place of Farrior- certainly not a bad fall-back plan, if not long term. But a future ILB is required, be it this draft or the next.

Chad,...i'll give you Heyward to some degree. The kid is intelligent,..he was raised a football player and he does posses the physical measurables, aggression, humilty, talent and work ethic to to be more than servicable as a 3-4 end.

But Hood IMO,..nothing personal to him or anyone else,..is just a guy. I have watched him attempt to 'slap fight' and be manhandled by single unexceptional blockers too many times since he's been here to justify me believing anything differently than what i felt on the very day of his selection. Not only does our system not fit him,...he would be potentially only be "just good enough" to fit and or get a check for a couple of years in the right system. (4-3)

Now in truth,...much like Timmons,..he(Hood) never proclaimed to be capable of being a prospective stud 3-4 end. Nor did he draft himself.

That was your boy Tomlin,...attempting to avoid drafting any truly productive stud collegiate players so as vindicate himself as a guy who could not play in the pro's by having marginal talent succeed under his watch.

How's that worked out so far now that the best of our revered Old Guard is marching off toward the sunset ?

But i digress,...here's to hoping that we not only bring in capable players,..but that most of them,... as well as us all,.. fans and franchise alike,.... adapt and overcome. :Cheers :Steel

Slapstick
01-24-2012, 09:22 AM
That was your boy Tomlin,...attempting to avoid drafting any truly productive stud collegiate players so as vindicate himself as a guy who could not play in the pro's by having marginal talent succeed under his watch.

Congratualtions!

You now have the record for the most baseless and spectacularly uninformed opinion posted on this board!!

:Boobs :Boobs :Boobs :Boobs :Boobs :Boobs :Boobs :Boobs :Boobs :Boobs :Boobs

eniparadoxgma
01-24-2012, 11:00 AM
Wow. Just wow.

feltdizz
01-24-2012, 11:40 AM
I think a coaches ego can get the best of him at times and hurt a team. Josh McDaniels comes to mind...

but you have to be pretty creative and batsh%t crazy to reach back to a coaches college, HS or pee wee, 2 hand touch, knee football days as a reason he is sabotaging an NFL draft.

anyone remember knee football? We used to play it indoors when we were kids.

Captain Lemming
01-24-2012, 12:12 PM
[quote]Many do not realize the nature of the impact that Aaron being the almost prototypical 3-4 end,

Didnt miss a beat in 2010. With Ziggy who is now deemed inadequate we set defensive records. Better run D than any healthy Smith year. 3-4 Dline supposed to free up Lbers? Woodley who lines up next to Smitty had a career season, more sacks on that side in a DECADE BY JASON GILDON (both had 13.5).

This year, almost entirely without Smitty, Woodley was on a team record 18 sack pace when he got hurt.


Hamp being very nearly the same at NT

Are we not close to undefeated when Hoke starts? I dont see how that makes him so valuable.

Like I alway say it is about the LBers PERIOD.

Injuries to our LBers were the problem.

In their prime this was a very good Dline. But Steeler fans think it was way better then it is.

Save for fat Casey, under Cowher we never needed to spend high picks on Dlinemen. We have been just fine. Now we need to do it three years in a ROW???? I dont think so.

We need Olinemen and we need them NOW.

We cannot score because we cannot run with consistency.

Give me not one but TWO guards on the first day of this draft and our offense with be a beast.


Say what you want Cap as you are entitled to as much. But we do not have a single Inside Backer, NT or End on our roster that is anywhere near the players that Potsie, Hamp and Aaron were near and or at their respective 'peaks'.

And attempting to run a 3-4 lacking as much,.. even without a sub standard secondary ,.....is nearly pointless.[/quote:28n4ro5x]

OK.
I am still waiting to replace FANECA.
We keep putting that off for every other team need every year.
We have aging stars and young guys with potential at most of those positions.
We have BACKUP caliber guards RIGHT NOW with no relief in sight.
First and goal at the three and we end up with field goals.
Run calls are wasted plays half the time.
Our interior offense is crippled while we have a top defense.

Your concerns are what happens when?Mine are what is already broken.

Oline should be the priority

phillyesq
01-24-2012, 02:10 PM
OK.
I am still waiting to replace FANECA.
We keep putting that off for every other team need every year.
We have aging stars and young guys with potential at most of those positions.
We have BACKUP caliber guards RIGHT NOW with no relief in sight.
First and goal at the three and we end up with field goals.
Run calls are wasted plays half the time.
Our interior offense is crippled while we have a top defense.

Your concerns are what happens when?Mine are what is already broken.

Oline should be the priority

Well said, but I wouldn't brush aside the concerns on D. However, I think there is room for compromise.

Depending on how the draft plays out, the Steelers could draft OL-DT-OL; or DT-OL-OL, something like that.

The Steelers still need to get value with each pick, but I agree that they need to spend at least one premium pick on the OL.

focosteeler
01-24-2012, 04:42 PM
OK.
I am still waiting to replace FANECA.
We keep putting that off for every other team need every year.
We have aging stars and young guys with potential at most of those positions.
We have BACKUP caliber guards RIGHT NOW with no relief in sight.
First and goal at the three and we end up with field goals.
Run calls are wasted plays half the time.
Our interior offense is crippled while we have a top defense.

Your concerns are what happens when?Mine are what is already broken.

Oline should be the priority

Well said, but I wouldn't brush aside the concerns on D. However, I think there is room for compromise.

Depending on how the draft plays out, the Steelers could draft OL-DT-OL; or DT-OL-OL, something like that.

The Steelers still need to get value with each pick, but I agree that they need to spend at least one premium pick on the OL.

unless we trade up to get DeCastro or Glenn I think it should go DL-OL-OL

Chadman
01-24-2012, 06:14 PM
Maybe we should change the title of the thread to Biggest Need- Trenches (with a smattering of ILB)?

hawaiiansteel
01-24-2012, 06:18 PM
Maybe we should change the title of the thread to Biggest Need- Trenches (with a smattering of ILB)?


so, what's up mate? :Cheers

like your mock draft in your sig, btw...

Chadman
01-24-2012, 06:27 PM
Maybe we should change the title of the thread to Biggest Need- Trenches (with a smattering of ILB)?


so, what's up mate? :Cheers

like your mock draft in your sig, btw...

What's up? Sitting hree watching the rain come down as hard as last year- flooding starting again....Brisbane is on alert...

Other than that...not a lot. :D

flippy
01-24-2012, 06:32 PM
I picked an OLineman as the first pick in my mock. And I'd love to upgrade the O.

But I really believe our OLine is good enough where play calling and Ben can play good enough to win. And win SuperBowls.

But the D is getting no pressure. No turnovers. No splash plays whatsoever.

I want a DLineman that can dominate like Ngata or Suh. Heck I'd take a Justin Smith or a Vince Wilfork.

If you look back at our XL SuperBowl run, we dominated on D because of 1 man - Casey Hampton. He's no longer the same player. Add in Aaron Smith going down. And this D is not the same. Not even close.

If we had just one guy that was all world on our DLine, I think we'd be playing in 2 weeks.

NJ-STEELER
01-24-2012, 07:12 PM
I picked an OLineman as the first pick in my mock. And I'd love to upgrade the O.

But I really believe our OLine is good enough where play calling and Ben can play good enough to win. And win SuperBowls.

But the D is getting no pressure. No turnovers. No splash plays whatsoever.

I want a DLineman that can dominate like Ngata or Suh. Heck I'd take a Justin Smith or a Vince Wilfork.

If you look back at our XL SuperBowl run, we dominated on D because of 1 man - Casey Hampton. He's no longer the same player. Add in Aaron Smith going down. And this D is not the same. Not even close.

If we had just one guy that was all world on our DLine, I think we'd be playing in 2 weeks.

all four of those guys you mentioned were top 10 draft picks

Captain Lemming
01-25-2012, 10:28 AM
I picked an OLineman as the first pick in my mock. And I'd love to upgrade the O.

But I really believe our OLine is good enough where play calling and Ben can play good enough to win. And win SuperBowls.

But the D is getting no pressure. No turnovers. No splash plays whatsoever.

I want a DLineman that can dominate like Ngata or Suh. Heck I'd take a Justin Smith or a Vince Wilfork.

If you look back at our XL SuperBowl run, we dominated on D because of 1 man - Casey Hampton. He's no longer the same player. Add in Aaron Smith going down. And this D is not the same. Not even close..

I thought some guy named Porter had a little something to do with that run. He was more important than Casey. Fact is when Casey is out Hoke is good enough.

How we forget the role our dominant interior line played that year. Faneca and Hartings inside. The ability run inside with consistency. That fear opening up our passing game with a young QB despitenot having explosive receivers. We could run the clock out at will when we had a lead.

We can speculate about whether we win that year without. Casey.
But the ability of Faneca to create a canyon for fast Willie to have a record TD. That was the difference between winning and losing, without a doubt.

I would love to draft a Ngata. You are notta gonna get a Ngata where we draft. We can wind up with a future Faneca. It is long overdue.

Slapstick
01-26-2012, 10:14 AM
I thought some guy named Porter had a little something to do with that run. He was more important than Casey. Fact is when Casey is out Hoke is good enough.

How we forget the role our dominant interior line played that year. Faneca and Hartings inside. The ability run inside with consistency. That fear opening up our passing game with a young QB despitenot having explosive receivers. We could run the clock out at will when we had a lead.

We can speculate about whether we win that year without. Casey.
But the ability of Faneca to create a canyon for fast Willie to have a record TD. That was the difference between winning and losing, without a doubt.

I would love to draft a Ngata. You are notta gonna get a Ngata where we draft. We can wind up with a future Faneca. It is long overdue.

I am probably one of the few who believes that Ziggy would be better at the NT position than at the 5-Tech DE...I think he's solid at 5-Tech, but with Hokie's success at NT, I think Ziggy could match that and improve upon it...

He was a successful interior DT in college...