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steelz09
01-07-2012, 06:58 PM
Realistically, what do you think the Steelers will offer Mike Wallace and do you think he'll accept?

I know one thing for sure.....He is not the top echelon. He is not in the same category as:

Larry Fitzgerald
Andre Johnson
Calvin Johnson
or even a more experienced A.J Green.

I think he's more in the Hakeem Nicks type arena. Your thoughts?

Lebsteel
01-07-2012, 07:42 PM
Agreed....I definitely would take any of those over Wallace so if he wants more than $6 mil per year I think we would need to let him walk. The Johnsons make $10 mil per year and if A. Brown continues to play like he has it would be hard to pay both top dollar.

flippy
01-07-2012, 08:25 PM
I'd want to see what our WRs do in the playoffs before making a decision.

Wallace screwed the pooch on the final drive in last year's SuperBowl. I'd like to see him up his game on the big stage.

I think Wallace could be as good or better than any WR in the league except for his hands. If he could figure out how to attack the ball in the air, he'd be hands down the best.

And the reason I think he's so important is he takes 2 guys out of every play and essentially gives us 10 on 9 football. And we should have the edge with those odds on every play.

RuthlessBurgher
01-07-2012, 08:30 PM
ESPN's "Football Scientist" K.C. Joyner (their stat maven) has a weekly chat and this week he took several questions about Mike Wallace vs. Calvin Johnson. He's the first person I've heard who actually prefers Wallace to Calvin. Personally, I don't agree. I'm a big time Wallace fan, but if Calvin was a Steeler, it would be a full-fledged man crush. Just figured I'd share a different opinion I read just yesterday.


Roger (WI)

Which wide receiver is the most underrated in the league?

KC Joyner
(4:01 PM)

Antonio Brown. A TFS ESPN.com Insider article from earlier this week showed that he was actually targeted for more vertical passes than Mike Wallace.


Jason (Bmore)

Have you been able to look at any metrics involving the Steelers passing offense, specifically Mike Wallace? He was on fire early on, and it looks like teams have adjusted. Does that seem to be the case?

KC Joyner
(4:05 PM)

Check out that aforementioned article on Wallace, as it shows his 2011 metrics. What it boiled down to is that he is so good at short passes (something he has been great at in the past) that Pittsburgh started using him more on those throws while throwing to Brown vertically more often.


Alexander (SD)

Hi KC, I know I may be beating a dead horse hear and you are entiltled to your own opinions which by the way I agree with you most of the time, but can you please just give up on the Wallace is better than Megatron thing. Can you honelstly say if you are an up and coming QB in the NFL you wouldn't rather have Megatron?

KC Joyner
(4:07 PM)

It all comes down to what type of receiver one wants. Wallace is a dominant short pass receiver and is probably the best vertical WR in the NFL, but he isn't quite the all-around WR that Megatron is. My preference is usually for the all-around types but in this case Wallace's short pass prowess makes him a uniquely valuable WR. That's why I would still take him over Megatron.


Neil (NYC)

you are backtracking as badly as Rex Ryan now admitting that the Jets wont win the Superbowl. That Megatron/Wallace argument is so weak. Megatron is unguardable one on one in every area of the field and Wallace is not. How is that not the deciding factor? sorry, i dont mean to attack.

KC Joyner
(4:39 PM)

Yep, Megatron was unguardable in Oakland - oh, wait, that was when the Raiders covered him with a linebacker. And he was unguardable for about a five-game stretch there in midseason - no, wait, that was when he was going through a slump. Stop looking at this with Transformers glasses and see Megatron for what he really is - a great WR but one who is not quite as dangerous as Wallace.


Shawn Kemp Blazers (MN)

Shouldn't the fact that Brown plays opposite Wallace be a factor? Surely it is easier to have better metrics with better weapons around you?

KC Joyner
(4:47 PM)

So why isn't Nate Burleson a dominant WR? Or Andre Roberts? Having a great WR on one side of the formation does not assure great performance from the other.


Dan (Harrisburg, PA)

I'm sorry, but I just cannot let that last answer about Wallace-Megatron go without comment. The only reason Calvin Johnson was mediocre for 4-5 games during the middle part of the season was b/c of double-triple teams. Meanwhile, Wallace has been mediocre since week 4. Sorry, but Calvin Johnson >>> Mike Wallace

KC Joyner
(4:59 PM)

It's amazing that Mike Wallace never sees a double team. Or bracket coverage. Or a shadow cornerback. His world is always populated with single coverage from bad cornerbacks. Would that everyone were as blessed as Wallace in this respect.


http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/chat/_/id/41968/football-scientist-kc-joyner

Eddie Spaghetti
01-07-2012, 08:36 PM
I have no problems with wallaces hands.

its his physicality, or lack thereof.

RuthlessBurgher
01-07-2012, 08:43 PM
Here is the article that Joyner references in the chat (Sorry for the sucky formatting):


Don't count the Steelers out
Pittsburgh is dealing with injuries, but it has something no other playoff team does
By KC Joyner
ESPN Insider

Originally Published: January 3, 2012
The Pittsburgh Steelers have taken a low playoff seed and won a title before. Can they do it again?



The 1976 Pittsburgh Steelers offered a lesson in the limitations of how far a team can go when trying to overcome injuries.



That club was one of the most talented in NFL history (it boasted nine Hall of Famers among its starting 22), and that skill level allowed the Steelers to bounce back from a 1-4 start -- and the loss of Terry Bradshaw -- to post 10 straight wins on the way to a berth in the AFC Championship Game.



Making it to that contest was quite an achievement, but it turned out to be the high-water mark of the year. Pittsburgh lost both of its starting running backs in an AFC divisional playoff win against the Baltimore Colts. Those losses were just too much even for this roster, and it led to a stagnant offense and a 24-7 defeat at the hands of the Oakland Raiders.



The current Pittsburgh roster doesn't quite have the stockpile of Hall of Fame-caliber candidates, but unlike that 1976 team, this year's Steelers should be able to use a diverse set of strengths to work around their health limitations. If they can, this is a team fully capable of making a Super Bowl run.



It starts with Pittsburgh's running game. Losing Rashard Mendenhall to a season-ending ACL injury hurts, but the Steelers' season-long totals in the good blocking yards per attempt (GBYPA) metric indicate it might not be a huge loss.



For those unfamiliar with GBYPA, it is a game tape-based statistic that measures how productive a ball carrier is on plays when he is given good blocking (which is loosely defined as when the blockers do not allow the defense to do anything to disrupt a rushing attempt).



Mendenhall posted a 7.2-yard total in this category, which is quite good (6.5 is normally the league average) but is less than the 8.8-yard GBYPA mark posted by the rest of Pittsburgh's ball carriers. This means that, as dynamic as he is often described as being,, Mendenhall should not be very hard to replace in terms of production (a sentiment shared by ESPN.com AFC North blogger Jamison Hensley). Quite simply: If the ground game dries up, it won't be because of an injury. It'll be about what's happening up front.



The Steelers also might have one of the best starting wide receiver tandems in the NFL in Mike Wallace and Antonio Brown. The amazing thing about this tandem is how their skills go far beyond how we often hear them described. This pair is far more than two deep threats.



To get an idea of just how dominant these two are, check out their season totals at each route depth level:






Mike Wallace's 2011 season



Route Depth

Comp

Att

Yds

TD

Int

Pen

Pen Yds

YPA




Short (1-10 yards)

47

58

503

2

1

0

0

8.7



Medium (11-19 yards)

15

26

223

1

1

0

0

8.6



Deep (20-29 yards)

1

3

25

1

0

0

0

8.3



Bomb (30+ yards)

8

19

431

4

1

2

84

24.5



Other (throwaways, etc.)

1

1

11

0

0

0

0

11.0



Total

72

107

1193

8

3

2

84

11.7



Vertical (11+ yards)

24

48

679

6

2

2

84

15.3



Stretch Vertical (20+ yards)

9

22

456

5

1

2

84

22.5




Antonio Brown's 2011 season



Route Depth

Comp

Att

Yds

TD

Int

Pen

Pen Yds

YPA




Short (1-10 yards)

27

39

221

1

0

1

2

5.6



Medium (11-19 yards)

34

53

676

1

1

1

14

12.8



Deep (20-29 yards)

8

18

211

0

1

0

0

11.7



Bomb (30+ yards)

0

4

0

0

1

0

0

0.0



Other (throwaways, etc.)

0

1

0

0

0

0

0

0.0



Total

69

115

1108

2

3

2

16

9.6



Vertical (11+ yards)

42

75

887

1

3

1

14

11.9



Stretch Vertical (20+ yards)

8

22

211

0

2

0

0

9.6




The first item that comes to mind when viewing these numbers is the fact that Pittsburgh nearly pulled off the rare feat of having two wideouts with double-digit overall YPA totals.



The next most notable statistics are Wallace's short pass totals, both from a YPA perspective (8.7) and an overall yardage perspective (503). Wallace is rightfully thought of as being one of the most dangerous downfield receiving threats in the NFL, but his short pass skills are so prolific that he gained more yards on those dink-and-dunk throws than he did on stretch vertical passes.



That is surprising enough, but the most shocking aspect of these figures is that Brown was actually targeted for 27 more vertical passes than Wallace this year and outpaced him on vertical yards by more than 200 yards. Brown doesn't possess Wallace's ability to put fear in the heart of a defense with raw speed, but his prowess at the medium depth level means he is just as much of a game plan nightmare.



These strengths might be enough on their own to help carry Pittsburgh through Ben Roethlisberger's ankle injury, but they are helped by the fact that the Steelers are really the only fully rounded team in the playoffs. They have the ability to move the ball on the ground and through the air on offense, and they are dominant at stopping both the pass and the run on defense (something evidenced by Pittsburgh's No. 1 ranking in pass yards allowed, total yards allowed and points allowed).



Pittsburgh might be able to make the "most well-rounded" claim only when Roethlisberger is healthy, but since it had the good fortune of landing what looks to be a very favorable first-round matchup against the Denver Broncos (who can make a strong claim to being the weakest team in the 2011 NFL playoffs), it means the odds are quite strong that a team is going to have to beat a healthy Roethlisberger at some point in the postseason.



If that turns out to be the case, this Pittsburgh squad might end up mimicking its Super Bowl XL predecessor by turning a low playoff seed into a world championship.




KC Joyner, aka the Football Scientist, is a regular contributor to ESPN Insider. He can also be found on Twitter @kcjoynertfs and his website. He is the author of an annual fantasy football draft guide, which is currently available, and "Blindsided: Why the Left Tackle Is Overrated and Other Contrarian Football Thoughts."

http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/playoffs/2011/story/_/id/7419139/why-pittsburgh-steelers-make-super-bowl-run-nfl

flippy
01-07-2012, 08:49 PM
I agree, we've got the best receiving tandem. Hopefully gimpy can get them the ball ;)

Wallace = Young Randy Moss
Brown = Young Steve Smith
Sanders = Young Marvin Harrison
Ward = Old Hines Ward
Cotchery = Young Hines Ward

Steel Life
01-07-2012, 10:15 PM
This is precisely why we should watch the DeSean Jackson situation closely...similar players, similar stats - probably similar contracts.

frankthetank1
01-08-2012, 12:11 PM
Realistically, what do you think the Steelers will offer Mike Wallace and do you think he'll accept?

I know one thing for sure.....He is not the top echelon. He is not in the same category as:

Larry Fitzgerald
Andre Johnson
Calvin Johnson
or even a more experienced A.J Green.

I think he's more in the Hakeem Nicks type arena. Your thoughts?

mike wallace is a lot better and a lot more valuable than hakeem nicks. c'mon wallace makes game changing plays and defenses have to plan for him. i dont think you can say the same for nicks. desean jackson is a very good comparison minus this bad season jackson had they are very similar players.

wallace is certainly not in the same class with fitz or either andre or calvin johnson but those are the best wr's in the game. with a few more years under his belt i think wallace has the potential to be in that class. wallace's biggest problem i see with getting a big contract with the steelers is the progression of antonio brown

steelz09
01-08-2012, 12:29 PM
Realistically, what do you think the Steelers will offer Mike Wallace and do you think he'll accept?

I know one thing for sure.....He is not the top echelon. He is not in the same category as:

Larry Fitzgerald
Andre Johnson
Calvin Johnson
or even a more experienced A.J Green.

I think he's more in the Hakeem Nicks type arena. Your thoughts?

mike wallace is a lot better and a lot more valuable than hakeem nicks. c'mon wallace makes game changing plays and defenses have to plan for him. i dont think you can say the same for nicks. desean jackson is a very good comparison minus this bad season jackson had they are very similar players.

wallace is certainly not in the same class with fitz or either andre or calvin johnson but those are the best wr's in the game. with a few more years under his belt i think wallace has the potential to be in that class. wallace's biggest problem i see with getting a big contract with the steelers is the progression of antonio brown

Yea, I think Jackson is a better comparison. Nicks is good though... He's not a one trick poney :stirpot

I disagree that Wallace will ever be in the Andre Johnson, Calvin Johnson or Fitzgerald's category. He just doesn't have the physical attributes to be in that list. I'm a Wallace fan but lets be realistic with ourselves, he's not in that category and never will be.

What bothers me about Wallace is that he NEVER goes and gets the ball or catches the ball at it's highest point. Wallace lets the ball come to him and he lets it get to his body. That is something the above 3 are excellent at.

feltdizz
01-08-2012, 12:30 PM
Nicks is a game changer too... He doesn't have Wallace's speed but he is better underneath and elusive enough to take any pass to the house.

steelblood
01-08-2012, 01:43 PM
Wallace better than Megatron? That may be the dumbest claim I've read this year. Doubling Wallace shuts him down quite often. That doesn't work against Megatron. AND, the claim that Wallace is a better short area receiver is also silly. Johnson is a far better red zone target and just as good on slants. Wallace may be a little better on screens.

Prowler
01-08-2012, 03:59 PM
I agree, we've got the best receiving tandem. Hopefully gimpy can get them the ball ;)

Wallace = Young Randy Moss
Brown = Young Steve Smith
Sanders = Young Marvin Harrison
Ward = Old Hines Ward
Cotchery = Young Hines Ward

Sanders? Equals the new Duce Staley but at WR. Hardly the next Marvin Harrison in my view. Always hurt and does very little when he's not.

feltdizz
01-08-2012, 04:17 PM
Nicks is a game changer too... He doesn't have Wallace's speed but he is better underneath and elusive enough to take any pass to the house.
Yes, I'm quoting myself after that 72 yard TD.

steelz09
01-08-2012, 04:19 PM
Realistically, what do you think the Steelers will offer Mike Wallace and do you think he'll accept?

I know one thing for sure.....He is not the top echelon. He is not in the same category as:

Larry Fitzgerald
Andre Johnson
Calvin Johnson
or even a more experienced A.J Green.

I think he's more in the Hakeem Nicks type arena. Your thoughts?

mike wallace is a lot better and a lot more valuable than hakeem nicks. c'mon wallace makes game changing plays and defenses have to plan for him. i dont think you can say the same for nicks. desean jackson is a very good comparison minus this bad season jackson had they are very similar players.

wallace is certainly not in the same class with fitz or either andre or calvin johnson but those are the best wr's in the game. with a few more years under his belt i think wallace has the potential to be in that class. wallace's biggest problem i see with getting a big contract with the steelers is the progression of antonio brown

When was the last time Wallace had a game like Nicks is having right now?

grotonsteel
01-08-2012, 04:19 PM
Wallace better than Megatron? That may be the dumbest claim I've read this year. Doubling Wallace shuts him down quite often. That doesn't work against Megatron. AND, the claim that Wallace is a better short area receiver is also silly. Johnson is a far better red zone target and just as good on slants. Wallace may be a little better on screens.


:Agree

Wallace is not in same zip code compared to Megatron. Megatron makes plays for his QB. Stafford was chucking the ball to Megatron in double coverage but he still made those plays.

Wallace can't do that. Wallace can't catch a ball if it is not perfectly thrown to him. He can't fight for the ball.

Steelgal
01-08-2012, 10:49 PM
I think after this game and his last few, his value went down. The last 4-5 weeks, he's been bad. AB has become more clutch than he has. Not sure if his ego got to him or what, but unless it's a perfectly thrown ball, he doesn't make a full effort IMO. I'm against giving him big-time money.

SidSmythe
01-08-2012, 10:55 PM
Mike Wallace is really disappointing IMO.
He knew he had to develop the rest of his game and I just don't see it.

If it comes down to keeping him or Brown I would choose Brown.

grotonsteel
01-08-2012, 11:00 PM
If i am a GM i would trade Mike Wallace for a 1st and 3rd pick on draft day.

If he had caught that 52 yard pass things would have been different. IMO a complete game changer that.

I would role with Brown,Sanders, Crotchery and rookie WR in 2012.

AngryAsian
01-08-2012, 11:01 PM
Brown is the real deal. Wallace still has some work to do to be complete. He's still a one trick pony.

SanAntonioSteelerFan
01-08-2012, 11:01 PM
Only good thing that came out of this game is that Wallace's stock went down so much that we might get to keep him on the cheap.

Oh, and if his contract is up also, same with Ike. WTH happened to him in the past month? It was like he was playing while taking Quaaludes or something.

Eddie Spaghetti
01-08-2012, 11:02 PM
heard on the radio wallace was upset that AB won the team MVP.

I hope that's not true.

Steelgal
01-08-2012, 11:05 PM
Only good thing that came out of this game is that Wallace's stock went down so much that we might get to keep him on the cheap.

Oh, and if his contract is up also, same with Ike. WTH happened to him in the past month? It was like he was playing while taking Quaaludes or something.

I think Ike was re-signed last off-season. Can't remember the numbers, but it was a reasonable deal.

feltdizz
01-08-2012, 11:06 PM
I wonder if Brown having a breakout year put a seed of doubt in Wallace's brain?He's fast but that's all he is... he reminds me of FWP. He isn't fluid or smooth and the ball has to be perfect or he isn't catching.

Steelgal
01-08-2012, 11:08 PM
heard on the radio wallace was upset that AB won the team MVP.

I hope that's not true.

sad, if it is true.

I've listened to Chris Carter a lot on Mike and Mike in the Morning and he said most WRs are prima donnas, even him in his playing days. Said they think differently and are very selfish players. Hearing him talk like that, I wouldn't doubt that Wallace felt that way.

papillon
01-08-2012, 11:10 PM
I wonder if Brown having a breakout year put a seed of doubt in Wallace's brain?He's fast but that's all he is... he reminds me of FWP. He isn't fluid or smooth and the ball has to be perfect or he isn't catching.

By the looks of things today there's no guarantee he'll catch even if it is perfect. The 52 yard drop wasn't perfect, but it was pretty close and the Champ's almost interception, Wallace didn't try to do anything but wait for the ball. Tough day for him.

Pappy

Starlifter
01-08-2012, 11:12 PM
wallace is simply still too one-dimensional. he has failed so far to elevate his game beyond pure speed.

he doesn't fight for the ball.
he has average hands and if the ball isn't in the breadbasket it's far too often incomplete.
he runs deep routes and the bubble screen.

he really needs to learn how to start winning battles for the ball. he's a valid deep threat - but if that's all he is, teams will adjust.

AB deserved the MVP.

Ghost
01-08-2012, 11:20 PM
The 52 yarder was 100% on Wallace. AN NFL recevier makes that play every single time. And he really does nothing to stop the defender going for the ball. Needs to be much more physical.

NJ-STEELER
01-08-2012, 11:24 PM
If i am a GM i would trade Mike Wallace for a 1st and 3rd pick on draft day.

If he had caught that 52 yard pass things would have been different. IMO a complete game changer that.

I would role with Brown,Sanders, Crotchery and rookie WR in 2012.

when there's receivers like thomas and hicks out there getting drafted in the late 1st round, no one is giving a 1st and a 3rd for wallace while paying him big money and giving away a rookie salary for that #1 pick

Steelgal
01-08-2012, 11:27 PM
If i am a GM i would trade Mike Wallace for a 1st and 3rd pick on draft day.

If he had caught that 52 yard pass things would have been different. IMO a complete game changer that.

I would role with Brown,Sanders, Crotchery and rookie WR in 2012.

when there's receivers like thomas and hicks out there getting drafted in the late 1st round, no one is giving a 1st and a 3rd for wallace while paying him big money and giving away a rookie salary for that #1 pick

Never know.....look what the Raiders gave up for Carson Palmer??? Granted it's the Raiders, but still.

phillyesq
01-09-2012, 05:59 PM
If i am a GM i would trade Mike Wallace for a 1st and 3rd pick on draft day.

If he had caught that 52 yard pass things would have been different. IMO a complete game changer that.

I would role with Brown,Sanders, Crotchery and rookie WR in 2012.

when there's receivers like thomas and hicks out there getting drafted in the late 1st round, no one is giving a 1st and a 3rd for wallace while paying him big money and giving away a rookie salary for that #1 pick

The Pats* have a horrible record in the draft recently. I could easily see them giving up a first and third for Wallace. With a legit deep threat to take coverage from their TEs and Welker, their offense would be nearly unstoppable.

Wallace had a terrible game yesterday and a rough stretch recently. He certainly didn't earn himself any money, but I'm not sure that his stock dropped so much that he'll come at a big discount, either. He has value in opening up the offense and commanding double teams.

He is a bit of a one trick pony -- I'd love to see him make some of the catches AB makes -- but his trick is still a pretty good one, his drop yesterday notwithstanding.

DukieBoy
01-09-2012, 07:22 PM
"Big Money" hit a recession. One went out of production, at least for many games, and another was the victim of his own inefficiencies. Meanwhile, UPS rolled along pretty good, anyway.

steelz09
01-16-2012, 08:57 AM
Realistically, what do you think the Steelers will offer Mike Wallace and do you think he'll accept?

I know one thing for sure.....He is not the top echelon. He is not in the same category as:

Larry Fitzgerald
Andre Johnson
Calvin Johnson
or even a more experienced A.J Green.

I think he's more in the Hakeem Nicks type arena. Your thoughts?

mike wallace is a lot better and a lot more valuable than hakeem nicks. c'mon wallace makes game changing plays and defenses have to plan for him. i dont think you can say the same for nicks. desean jackson is a very good comparison minus this bad season jackson had they are very similar players.

wallace is certainly not in the same class with fitz or either andre or calvin johnson but those are the best wr's in the game. with a few more years under his belt i think wallace has the potential to be in that class. wallace's biggest problem i see with getting a big contract with the steelers is the progression of antonio brown

When was the last time Wallace had a game like Nicks is having right now?

Hate to tell ya I told you so but........ :) Want to debate Nicks vs. Wallace a bit more?

feltdizz
01-16-2012, 09:19 AM
Realistically, what do you think the Steelers will offer Mike Wallace and do you think he'll accept?

I know one thing for sure.....He is not the top echelon. He is not in the same category as:

Larry Fitzgerald
Andre Johnson
Calvin Johnson
or even a more experienced A.J Green.

I think he's more in the Hakeem Nicks type arena. Your thoughts?

mike wallace is a lot better and a lot more valuable than hakeem nicks. c'mon wallace makes game changing plays and defenses have to plan for him. i dont think you can say the same for nicks. desean jackson is a very good comparison minus this bad season jackson had they are very similar players.

wallace is certainly not in the same class with fitz or either andre or calvin johnson but those are the best wr's in the game. with a few more years under his belt i think wallace has the potential to be in that class. wallace's biggest problem i see with getting a big contract with the steelers is the progression of antonio brown

When was the last time Wallace had a game like Nicks is having right now?

Hate to tell ya I told you so but........ :) Want to debate Nicks vs. Wallace a bit more?

I was thinking about this during the NYG game... Wallace is faster but Nicks is a more complete WR.

papillon
01-16-2012, 09:24 AM
An offense can't afford to have a #1 receiver disappear for half the season, they just can't. Wallace while a substantial threat down field isn't good enough on a down by down basis to warrant huge dollars. If a team wants to pay him like a top tier WR, then by all means let him go and get paid. I would be disappointed if the Steelers pay him large sums of money to remain with the Steelers. Antonio Brown is proving he's a more complete WR (and can returnn kicks) and Sanders could be in the same mold (he needs to stay healthy); I liked what I saw from Sanders versus the Broncos.

Without Wallace might Ben become even more efficient in the passing game knowing that he doesn't have the speedster on the outside? But, has receivers that will fight for the ball and make tough catches for him in the intermediate range? Unfortunately, Wallace is looking like the one trick pony that Tomlin indicated he was last year.

Wallace's second half of the season has put the Steelers in an awkward position of knowing what he "can" do, but also seeing what he "can't" do. How do you put a value on a receiver that performed at a high level for 8 games and then at something considerably less in 8 games and one playoff loss?

Pappy

feltdizz
01-16-2012, 09:29 AM
An offense can't afford to have a #1 receiver disappear for half the season, they just can't. Wallace while a substantial threat down field isn't good enough on a down by down basis to warrant huge dollars. If a team wants to pay him like a top tier WR, then by all means let him go and get paid. I would be disappointed if the Steelers pay him large sums of money to remain with the Steelers. Antonio Brown is proving he's a more complete WR (and can returnn kicks) and Sanders could be in the same mold (he needs to stay healthy); I liked what I saw from Sanders versus the Broncos.

Without Wallace might Ben become even more efficient in the passing game knowing that he doesn't have the speedster on the outside? But, has receivers that will fight for the ball and make tough catches for him in the intermediate range? Unfortunately, Wallace is looking like the one trick pony that Tomlin indicated he was last year.

Wallace's second half of the season has put the Steelers in an awkward position of knowing what he "can" do, but also seeing what he "can't" do. How do you put a value on a receiver that performed at a high level for 8 games and then at something considerably less in 8 games and one playoff loss?

Pappy

hmm... that's tough because Ben wasn't able to step into a lot of throws after the injury. Wallace is a one trick pony but it's an awesome trick.

He is more of a #3 WR and should be paid accordingly. He isn't catching anything underneath and breaking a tackle...

papillon
01-16-2012, 09:37 AM
An offense can't afford to have a #1 receiver disappear for half the season, they just can't. Wallace while a substantial threat down field isn't good enough on a down by down basis to warrant huge dollars. If a team wants to pay him like a top tier WR, then by all means let him go and get paid. I would be disappointed if the Steelers pay him large sums of money to remain with the Steelers. Antonio Brown is proving he's a more complete WR (and can returnn kicks) and Sanders could be in the same mold (he needs to stay healthy); I liked what I saw from Sanders versus the Broncos.

Without Wallace might Ben become even more efficient in the passing game knowing that he doesn't have the speedster on the outside? But, has receivers that will fight for the ball and make tough catches for him in the intermediate range? Unfortunately, Wallace is looking like the one trick pony that Tomlin indicated he was last year.

Wallace's second half of the season has put the Steelers in an awkward position of knowing what he "can" do, but also seeing what he "can't" do. How do you put a value on a receiver that performed at a high level for 8 games and then at something considerably less in 8 games and one playoff loss?

Pappy

hmm... that's tough because Ben wasn't able to step into a lot of throws after the injury. Wallace is a one trick pony but it's an awesome trick.

He is more of a #3 WR and should be paid accordingly. He isn't catching anything underneath and breaking a tackle...

I think that's what I was saying (hopefully); the question becomes does Wallace believe he's a #3 WR, probably the best in the game?

Do you think that Wallace's one trick also leads Ben down the dark side too often, because of his penchant for going deep rather than taking the underneath stuff when it's there? I've often wondered this year if Ben loves the deep ball so much that he over looked drive sustaining throws to try for the deep ball?

Pappy

feltdizz
01-16-2012, 10:12 AM
An offense can't afford to have a #1 receiver disappear for half the season, they just can't. Wallace while a substantial threat down field isn't good enough on a down by down basis to warrant huge dollars. If a team wants to pay him like a top tier WR, then by all means let him go and get paid. I would be disappointed if the Steelers pay him large sums of money to remain with the Steelers. Antonio Brown is proving he's a more complete WR (and can returnn kicks) and Sanders could be in the same mold (he needs to stay healthy); I liked what I saw from Sanders versus the Broncos.

Without Wallace might Ben become even more efficient in the passing game knowing that he doesn't have the speedster on the outside? But, has receivers that will fight for the ball and make tough catches for him in the intermediate range? Unfortunately, Wallace is looking like the one trick pony that Tomlin indicated he was last year.

Wallace's second half of the season has put the Steelers in an awkward position of knowing what he "can" do, but also seeing what he "can't" do. How do you put a value on a receiver that performed at a high level for 8 games and then at something considerably less in 8 games and one playoff loss?

Pappy

hmm... that's tough because Ben wasn't able to step into a lot of throws after the injury. Wallace is a one trick pony but it's an awesome trick.

He is more of a #3 WR and should be paid accordingly. He isn't catching anything underneath and breaking a tackle...

I think that's what I was saying (hopefully); the question becomes does Wallace believe he's a #3 WR, probably the best in the game?

Do you think that Wallace's one trick also leads Ben down the dark side too often, because of his penchant for going deep rather than taking the underneath stuff when it's there? I've often wondered this year if Ben loves the deep ball so much that he over looked drive sustaining throws to try for the deep ball?

Pappy

:Agree

Ben is to blame for not targeting the underneath routes...

JUST-PLAIN-NASTY
01-16-2012, 11:03 AM
I'm not letting Wallace of the hook totally but teams gameplanned to take him away. The impact was on Brown's production. A healthy Sanders would have shown even more. I think his worth is high. Ben seemed to realize it more & more as the season unfolded but I also saw teams start to go away from it when he was injured. Teams knew the clock was cut short because he couldn't extend the plays and that took away some of his downfield late reads. I also think BA needs to utilize this fact a hell-of-alot better or he should be shown the door. If BA sees 2 Safeties backpedalling down the hashes and he doesn't have 2 or more receivers inside those hashes in front of those safeties on every passing play...He isn't taking advantage of his talent. I don't know how many times this year where I saw the Miller or the RB start in the backfield...Chip or release late and drag shallow to suck up the LBs and there was 20+ yards of green in front of the safeties but no WR on deep crosses or in cuts. Just Wallace and Brown running into the cover 2 on go routes and deep posts. Could be on the WRs if they are on read routes but that still could be designed in the playbook off the route tree when you have guys like Wallace & Brown. This offense left alot on the field in many games. I just wish I knew where to point the finger.

feltdizz
01-16-2012, 12:25 PM
I'm not letting Wallace of the hook totally but teams gameplanned to take him away. The impact was on Brown's production. A healthy Sanders would have shown even more. I think his worth is high. Ben seemed to realize it more & more as the season unfolded but I also saw teams start to go away from it when he was injured. Teams knew the clock was cut short because he couldn't extend the plays and that took away some of his downfield late reads. I also think BA needs to utilize this fact a hell-of-alot better or he should be shown the door. If BA sees 2 Safeties backpedalling down the hashes and he doesn't have 2 or more receivers inside those hashes in front of those safeties on every passing play...He isn't taking advantage of his talent. I don't know how many times this year where I saw the Miller or the RB start in the backfield...Chip or release late and drag shallow to suck up the LBs and there was 20+ yards of green in front of the safeties but no WR on deep crosses or in cuts. Just Wallace and Brown running into the cover 2 on go routes and deep posts. Could be on the WRs if they are on read routes but that still could be designed in the playbook off the route tree when you have guys like Wallace & Brown. This offense left alot on the field in many games. I just wish I knew where to point the finger.

Point it at the guy with the ball trying to wait for something big to open up deep instead of dumping it short.

We went for the long pass too many times when there was a guy underneath who could move the chains.

Guys are usually open underneath...

NJ-STEELER
01-16-2012, 02:37 PM
wallace = fast

nicks = fast, Big, physical


no comparison, really

Chadman
01-16-2012, 06:28 PM
Chadman isn't big on 'guarentees', but here's one- if the Steelers lose Wallace they WILL NOT adequately replace him & it will reduce the passing games effectiveness.

Wallace is a 1 trick pony? Not really. Ok, he's a very good deep threat. But he's still good in the short & medium zones too. Ok, he's not complete- but the recieving group, as a GROUP, is complete with him there. Without him you have 2 smurfs in Brown & Sanders, a geriatric in Ward & a 'possession reciever' in Cotchery.

Who opens up the field without Wallace?

The Steelers simply 'need' to have him on the field- even if his production is down, because he makes the others around him more dangerous. Without him, the offense doesn't stretch the field anywhere near as well.

Pay him what it takes to keep him.

The team is already going to take some hits personel-wise, now is not the time to reduce the effectiveness of possibly the best part of the team- the recievers.

feltdizz
01-16-2012, 06:40 PM
Not trying to bash Wallace but you could find any fast WR in the draft with half decent hands and it would accomplish the same thing. Nate Washington, Sweed, Wallace...

You keep Wallace for continuity but you don't pay him the big bucks.

Chadman
01-16-2012, 10:11 PM
Not trying to bash Wallace but you could find any fast WR in the draft with half decent hands and it would accomplish the same thing. Nate Washington, Sweed, Wallace...

You keep Wallace for continuity but you don't pay him the big bucks.

If Wallace was 'just a fast WR', then guys like Willie Reid would still be in the NFL.

He's not 'just fast'. He's a good, but probably not great, young WR that is a threat to score from anywhere on the field because he is fast. You pay him because he draws double/triple teams. Why does he draw them? Because guys like Cotchery, Sanders, Ward etc don't put fear in the opposition. Wallace does.

Chadman sometimes wonders if Steelers fans know how good we have it. 3 years in the NFL, 3,206 yards recieving, 24 TD's, 171 catches....

Chadman sees him compared to DeSean Jackson on here...ok..like-for-like, Jackson's first 3 years in the NFL gave- 3,124 yards, 17 TD's with the exact same amount of catches- 171.

Hakeem Nicks- 3,034 yards, 24 TD's & 202 catches

How about Megatron then- 3,071 yards, 21 TD's & 193 catches

Andre Johnson- 2,806 yards, 12 TD's & 208 catches..

Larry Fitzgerald anyone? 3,135 yards, 24 TD's & 230 catches...

Or maybe we should compare Wallace to other 'fast deep threats' like say, Nate Washington who got mentioned as a suitable Wallace-clone.. hey, let's use his whole career as a guide..3,984 yards, 31 TD's & 267 catches..

Ok, is Wallace as complete a WR as the Johnson's & Fitzgerald? No, he's not.

But his involvement, his importance to the team- he's on par, easily, to the best WR's in the game at the same stage of their career's.

And you don't just replace him with a Nate Washington- type.

steeler_fan_in_t.o.
01-17-2012, 12:26 PM
Wallace is a very talented WR who did have some issues this year. He showed us what he could be at the beginning of the season with some monster games. His production tailed off at the end of the year.....but why???

There were reports that he started to sulk as Brown's workload increased.

Was it because an injured Ben could not step into his throws and hit him?

Was it because the Ds were taking him away, which contributed to the 1,000 yard season of a guy who started off as a backup?

Is he as good as the guy who looked like he might hit his 2,000 yard target, or is he just not that good and more of the guy who went for around 400 yards the second half of the year?

Luckily we have the opportunity to tender him and bring him back at a reasonable price for one more year before having to decide. Probably for somewhere between $2-3M we can keep him in the fold or receive a first or first and third from another team. From where I stand now, my biggest worry is the possible attitude problem. If that is the case then he needs to correct that soon. But if he has the explosive team player still in him then I want this kid locked up.

feltdizz
01-17-2012, 12:44 PM
Not trying to bash Wallace but you could find any fast WR in the draft with half decent hands and it would accomplish the same thing. Nate Washington, Sweed, Wallace...

You keep Wallace for continuity but you don't pay him the big bucks.

If Wallace was 'just a fast WR', then guys like Willie Reid would still be in the NFL.

He's not 'just fast'. He's a good, but probably not great, young WR that is a threat to score from anywhere on the field because he is fast. You pay him because he draws double/triple teams. Why does he draw them? Because guys like Cotchery, Sanders, Ward etc don't put fear in the opposition. Wallace does.

Chadman sometimes wonders if Steelers fans know how good we have it. 3 years in the NFL, 3,206 yards recieving, 24 TD's, 171 catches....

Chadman sees him compared to DeSean Jackson on here...ok..like-for-like, Jackson's first 3 years in the NFL gave- 3,124 yards, 17 TD's with the exact same amount of catches- 171.

Hakeem Nicks- 3,034 yards, 24 TD's & 202 catches

How about Megatron then- 3,071 yards, 21 TD's & 193 catches

Andre Johnson- 2,806 yards, 12 TD's & 208 catches..

Larry Fitzgerald anyone? 3,135 yards, 24 TD's & 230 catches...

Or maybe we should compare Wallace to other 'fast deep threats' like say, Nate Washington who got mentioned as a suitable Wallace-clone.. hey, let's use his whole career as a guide..3,984 yards, 31 TD's & 267 catches..

Ok, is Wallace as complete a WR as the Johnson's & Fitzgerald? No, he's not.

But his involvement, his importance to the team- he's on par, easily, to the best WR's in the game at the same stage of their career's.

And you don't just replace him with a Nate Washington- type.

Wallace isn't a threat to score from anywhere on the field IMHO. He definitely has the speed to do it but he doesn't have the strength or quickness to make guys miss underneath. Don't get me wrong.. he has the speed to run past everyone but if you keep a guy in front of him or ride him on his route it's pretty much an easy INT or play on the ball.

He has one TD where he ran around guys to get to the endzone but everything else has been on your mark, get set, go....

Dude has killer speed but he is one dimensional. I would love to see him improve his route running.

steelz09
01-17-2012, 02:50 PM
Not trying to bash Wallace but you could find any fast WR in the draft with half decent hands and it would accomplish the same thing. Nate Washington, Sweed, Wallace...

You keep Wallace for continuity but you don't pay him the big bucks.

If Wallace was 'just a fast WR', then guys like Willie Reid would still be in the NFL.

He's not 'just fast'. He's a good, but probably not great, young WR that is a threat to score from anywhere on the field because he is fast. You pay him because he draws double/triple teams. Why does he draw them? Because guys like Cotchery, Sanders, Ward etc don't put fear in the opposition. Wallace does.

Chadman sometimes wonders if Steelers fans know how good we have it. 3 years in the NFL, 3,206 yards recieving, 24 TD's, 171 catches....

Chadman sees him compared to DeSean Jackson on here...ok..like-for-like, Jackson's first 3 years in the NFL gave- 3,124 yards, 17 TD's with the exact same amount of catches- 171.

Hakeem Nicks- 3,034 yards, 24 TD's & 202 catches

How about Megatron then- 3,071 yards, 21 TD's & 193 catches

Andre Johnson- 2,806 yards, 12 TD's & 208 catches..

Larry Fitzgerald anyone? 3,135 yards, 24 TD's & 230 catches...

Or maybe we should compare Wallace to other 'fast deep threats' like say, Nate Washington who got mentioned as a suitable Wallace-clone.. hey, let's use his whole career as a guide..3,984 yards, 31 TD's & 267 catches..

Ok, is Wallace as complete a WR as the Johnson's & Fitzgerald? No, he's not.

But his involvement, his importance to the team- he's on par, easily, to the best WR's in the game at the same stage of their career's.

And you don't just replace him with a Nate Washington- type.

Wallace isn't a threat to score from anywhere on the field IMHO. He definitely has the speed to do it but he doesn't have the strength or quickness to make guys miss underneath. Don't get me wrong.. he has the speed to run past everyone but if you keep a guy in front of him or ride him on his route it's pretty much an easy INT or play on the ball.

He has one TD where he ran around guys to get to the endzone but everything else has been on your mark, get set, go....

Dude has killer speed but he is one dimensional. I would love to see him improve his route running.

Sorry Chadman but I can't put Wallace in the same category as A. Johnson, C. Johnson, or Fitzgerald. There is a rookie named AJ Green that is already better than Wallace.

As far as the Jackson comparison... I can go w/ that. I think Jackson is still more dynamic than Wallace. Jackson is more elusive by far but Wallace might have the slight edge in speed.

Wallace is probably a 6-10 WR in this league. Not a top 5.

feltdizz
01-17-2012, 03:00 PM
Mike Wallace is #1 at blowing the top off of a D but he isn't even top 10.

The problem with Mike Wallace is you have to be damn near perfect for him to have success.

Jackson is a great comparison except Jackson also returns punts...

Didn't Jackson threaten to sit out this year?

steelz09
01-17-2012, 03:17 PM
Without even looking at teams and players, these are WRs that I think are better all-around WRs in no particular order. I'm looking at this list just from a talent, abillity, and production standpoint... and watching them play. This does not consider "character issues".

Andre Johnson
Calvin Johnson
Larry Fitzgerald
Greg Jennings
AJ Green
Hakeem Nicks
Desean Jackson
M. Colston
Brandon Marshall
Roddy White
Vincent Jackson
Santonio Holmes
Julio Jones
Dwayne Bowe
Wes Welker
Steve Smith

Then you start getting in the mold of other plays like.... Stevie Jonhson, Dez Bryant, etc

Slapstick
01-17-2012, 03:47 PM
I can't agree on all of those WRs...

But, as far as "complete" WRs, it depends upon how much value you place on that and if that is outweighed by what Wallace does well...

I mean, Hines is probably a more "complete" WR than Wallace...but, who produces more and why?

feltdizz
01-17-2012, 04:02 PM
I can't agree on all of those WRs...

But, as far as "complete" WRs, it depends upon how much value you place on that and if that is outweighed by what Wallace does well...

I mean, Hines is probably a more "complete" WR than Wallace...but, who produces more and why?

Hines was a more complete WR 5 years ago...

Wallace produces more because 75% of his routes are 40 yards down field.

I think most of the WR's on that list are more complete then Wallace... not faster or more lethal over the top... but better all around WR's who won't leave his QB out to dry if the ball isn't perfectly thrown.

Chadman
01-17-2012, 06:02 PM
Sorry Chadman but I can't put Wallace in the same category as A. Johnson, C. Johnson, or Fitzgerald. There is a rookie named AJ Green that is already better than Wallace.

You're probably right.

How good a WR he is to those top echelon types wasn't really the point- Chadman was just pointing out that he is contributing on an even level to these guys at the same stage of their careers.

You simply don't just 'replace' that easily.

If you lose him- someone has to fill that gap. Who can do it? Cotchery?

Doubt it.

To the Steelers, Wallace is worth the money.

Pay what it takes to keep him, or we'll all be here next year arguing how the team needs a #1 WR to take the heat of Antonio Brown.

steeler_fan_in_t.o.
01-18-2012, 10:54 AM
I think that too many here are simply looking at the second half of 2011 and passing judgement on what Mike Wallace is not. I would say that the way he finished the season is a huge concern, but don't forget some of what he had done in the previous 2 1/2 years.

He was poised coming into the year to rewrite all of the Steelers single season receiving records. In 7 games this year he had at least one catch of 40 or more yards. He had developed a rapport with Ben, in which a nod could lead to a quick strike TD. He was crossing over the middle, he was going deep, he was running after the catch, not just taking the top off of the D to open things up underneath.

The second half of this season still lingers as a big concern, but I would not simply write the guy off. IMO he still has the potential to put up 1,500 quality yards every year.

feltdizz
01-18-2012, 11:01 AM
I think that too many here are simply looking at the second half of 2011 and passing judgement on what Mike Wallace is not. I would say that the way he finished the season is a huge concern, but don't forget some of what he had done in the previous 2 1/2 years.

He was poised coming into the year to rewrite all of the Steelers single season receiving records. In 7 games this year he had at least one catch of 40 or more yards. He had developed a rapport with Ben, in which a nod could lead to a quick strike TD. He was crossing over the middle, he was going deep, he was running after the catch, not just taking the top off of the D to open things up underneath.

The second half of this season still lingers as a big concern, but I would not simply write the guy off. IMO he still has the potential to put up 1,500 quality yards every year.

hmm... I don't think anyone has written him off but you have to look at what a can do... and what he can't do and pay him accordingly.

grotonsteel
01-18-2012, 12:48 PM
I think that too many here are simply looking at the second half of 2011 and passing judgement on what Mike Wallace is not. I would say that the way he finished the season is a huge concern, but don't forget some of what he had done in the previous 2 1/2 years.

He was poised coming into the year to rewrite all of the Steelers single season receiving records. In 7 games this year he had at least one catch of 40 or more yards. He had developed a rapport with Ben, in which a nod could lead to a quick strike TD. He was crossing over the middle, he was going deep, he was running after the catch, not just taking the top off of the D to open things up underneath.

The second half of this season still lingers as a big concern, but I would not simply write the guy off. IMO he still has the potential to put up 1,500 quality yards every year.

hmm... I don't think anyone has written him off but you have to look at what a can do... and what he can't do and pay him accordingly.


+1

I would want Steelers to resign Mike Wallace but not by breaking the bank. I don't think he deserves Top-5 WR money.

Also Mike Wallace is in denial about dropped passes. Atleast on Twitter.

Chadman
01-19-2012, 12:34 AM
Think of it this way- if the Steelers lose their big play threat, opposition teams will double-up on Brown, making him less effective.

Who picks up the slack?

Are we then forced to draft another WR to fill the gap left by Wallace, who has a good thing going with Ben?

We are talking about the best part of the Steelers right now. By removing Wallace, you severely reduce the effectiveness & threat of the recieving corp.

What is a successful passing game worth? Whatever is decided, that's what you pay Wallace.

steeler_fan_in_t.o.
01-20-2012, 12:49 AM
For those who use the argument that Wallace does not have good enough hands, I just read the drop analysis from Pro Football Focus. For those who don't know, this is a site that examines every play of every team of every game. Of course they don't always know what every player is supposed to be doing on every play, but it is a lot more analysis than anyone else around here does. Anyhow......

When it comes to Wallace:

Catchable - 76
Caught - 72
Dropped - 4
Drop Rate - 5.26%

Good for 13th on the list.

RuthlessBurgher
01-21-2012, 10:13 PM
For those who use the argument that Wallace does not have good enough hands, I just read the drop analysis from Pro Football Focus. For those who don't know, this is a site that examines every play of every team of every game. Of course they don't always know what every player is supposed to be doing on every play, but it is a lot more analysis than anyone else around here does. Anyhow......

When it comes to Wallace:

Catchable - 76
Caught - 72
Dropped - 4
Drop Rate - 5.26%

Good for 13th on the list.

According to Football Outsiders, Wallace was 16th in the league in Defense-adjusted Yards Above Replacement (DYAR) as a rookie in 2009 (in spite of being a 3rd option in our offense behind Hines Ward and Santonio Holmes at that time). He was #1 in the NFL in this statistic in his second year in the league in 2010 (and by a pretty significant margin too...Wallace's DYAR was 457, Brandon Lloyd's was 414, Greg Jennings' was 330...those were the only 3 guys over 300). He was #5 in the league this past season (behind only Megatron, Jordy, Welker, and Cruz).

For what it's worth, DYAR gives the value of the performance on plays where this WR caught the ball, compared to replacement level, adjusted for situation and opponent and then translated into yardage. The simple version: DYAR means a wide receiver with more total value.

http://footballoutsiders.com/stats/wr

Captain Lemming
01-21-2012, 10:33 PM
Mike Wallace is #1 at blowing the top off of a D but he isn't even top 10.


Mr. Ed isnt the fastest horse, the most beautiful horse, or the strongest.

But his "one trick" is AMAZING....his "one trick" is the ability to TALK.

The point?

Wallace might be a "one trick pony" but that ONE TRICK makes him pretty special.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51P8FFADGJL._SL500_AA300_.jpg

Captain Lemming
01-21-2012, 10:36 PM
Not trying to bash Wallace but you could find any fast WR in the draft with half decent hands and it would accomplish the same thing. Nate Washington, Sweed, Wallace... .

To compare Wallace to the likes of N Washington or even Sweed is RIDICULOUS Diz.

He may not be "complete" but if Tom Brady wanted to relive the days when he had Moss, there in NO BETTER PLAYER IN THIS LEAGUE for that role than Wallace (dont get me wrong I am not saying he is good as Moss, just that no other player comes as close as Wallace in that role).

Brady would do cartwheels if somehow they could sign Wallace.

He is precisely what would make that receiving corp insanely good, all time great level good.

Captain Lemming
01-21-2012, 10:52 PM
I do agree with Dizz not to spend the big bucks. I say sign him to a restricted contract for the amount for a team to be able to "steal" him for a number one (not a one and a third). Someone will bite and w can draft another Guard, perhaps have the ammo to move enough to get the best guard.

We are receiver rich and oline poor. If we can have a top center guard combo our run game will be back big time and our passing game will still be fine.

steeler_fan_in_t.o.
01-22-2012, 08:05 PM
I do agree with Dizz not to spend the big bucks. I say sign him to a restricted contract for the amount for a team to be able to "steal" him for a number one (not a one and a third). Someone will bite and w can draft another Guard, perhaps have the ammo to move enough to get the best guard.

We are receiver rich and oline poor. If we can have a top center guard combo our run game will be back big time and our passing game will still be fine.

We are receiver rich? Who do we have?

Brown - stud in the making
Sanders - can't seem to stay healthy
Battle - probably gone but only here as a ST guy anyway
Cotchery - decent receiver who is a FA
Wallace - RFA who you would let go so that we can draft a guard
Ward - aging with declining skills


we are not WR rich, especially without Wallace.