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View Full Version : Wheee! Look at the NFL QB's breaking Marino's record...



brothervad
12-27-2011, 06:03 PM
Geez look at how many NFL QB's may break Marino's record. 4 of them have a shot. Anybody who doesn't think the new NFL policy on hits hasn't effected the game needs to have an anal-cranalectomy.

Most of you know that I am a true Steeler fan. But I have to admit that I have been less and less of an NFL fan. I don't watch as much of the non-Steeler games as I used to.

I guess I am out of the NFL's target market. I don't like the 48-35 games with tons of yards.

Marino in his hey day and the Mark's brothers would've thrown for over 6,000 yards in today's NFL.

While it's not the same as the PED's in baseball, I would say that stats today have to be *, simply because the game has gotten so one-sided the defense is basically handcuffed.

I guess the old saying if you can't beat them, then join em is the name of the game today.

(btw, feel free to flame on me being a whiner. I am openly admitting it. I really hate today's NFL.)

brothervad

StarSpangledSteeler
12-27-2011, 06:17 PM
Geez look at how many NFL QB's may break Marino's record. 4 of them have a shot. Anybody who doesn't think the new NFL policy on hits hasn't effected the game needs to have an anal-cranalectomy.

Most of you know that I am a true Steeler fan. But I have to admit that I have been less and less of an NFL fan. I don't watch as much of the non-Steeler games as I used to.

I guess I am out of the NFL's target market. I don't like the 48-35 games with tons of yards.

Marino in his hey day and the Mark's brothers would've thrown for over 6,000 yards in today's NFL.

While it's not the same as the PED's in baseball, I would say that stats today have to be *, simply because the game has gotten so one-sided the defense is basically handcuffed.

I guess the old saying if you can't beat them, then join em is the name of the game today.

(btw, feel free to flame on me being a whiner. I am openly admitting it. I really hate today's NFL.)

brothervad

I will not flame. I agree 100%. And I also agree that we are not part of the NFL's primary target anymore. I am a Steelers fan. I don't care so much about the other teams. Unless I hate them, then I care that they lose.

But when so many people love fantasy football, it takes away from team loyalty. They're not rooting for "teams" anymore they're rooting for "points". And Goodell is catering to that.

I agree that we (Steelers) need to adapt. Shorter quicker more accurate passes. Get the ball to your fast WR's and fast RB's and fast TE's and just let them run. That is how you're going to have to play to win Super Bowls for the next few years.

DukieBoy
12-27-2011, 07:09 PM
:Agree

It's a different game today. I believe the NFL is catering to the contemporary short attention spans that have been programmed by abundance and by the media, shaping tendencies to lose interest without immediate gratification and frequent reinforcement.

Paradoxically, it is much less satisfying to me, an older fan who came of age in the '70's and enjoyed the 4 SB run in that decade, to see frequent and cheap scores, made easy by rules that disadvantage the defenses. Seeing a record like Marino's fall so easily as it is this year, reminds me of the steroids home run derbies of previous years in MLB, except the cause in the NFL is the handicapping of defenses rather than steroids.

Congratulations to Drew Brees, a class guy. Unlike the steroid users in MLB who actively played outside the lines, Brees plays within the rules he is given and he had nothing to do with the rules changes. He has done well, and deserves the recognition and respect for his accomplishment.

Yeah, along with Bro Vad, I doubt that I am part of the target audience for today's NFL. I won't quit watching, but I do watch less, and enjoy football less than before.

Hope the NHL doesn't change much. There was some talk about making the goal larger. How much would that cheapen hockey!

My :2c x5

SteelCrazy
12-27-2011, 08:21 PM
You said Marino and the mark's brothers would have passed for 6000 yards in todays NFL, but I have to disagree with you there. Dan was chucking the ball just as much as any of today's QB's. Also, in the 80's teams focused on the run a little more than the pass, making it a little easier to put together a good passing game plan. Dan had great blocking by the OL in Miami too........the guy hardly got dirty. Yes, the DB's were a little more physical, but remember the Mel Blount rule was put in to effect in what 78, 79.

brothervad
12-27-2011, 11:12 PM
SteelCrazy,

This isn't just about the Blount rule. It's about not being able to command the over the middle stuff.

If you don't think today's rules against "defenseless" receivers, fines, suspensions wouldn't have changed Marino's numbers I would disagree with you whole-heartedly.

I do believe that defenses that hit hard/play aggressive do take the will out of players.

So 30 years of a record standing gets toasted not only once but 4 times in one year and it has nothing to do with the rules changes on hits?

Really?

Let's look at the numbers...

Marino 362 564 64.2 5084 9.0 (Pass to Rush 572/444 -- 56%/44%)
Brees 440 622 70.7 5,087 8.2 (Pass to Rush 624/396 -- 62%/38%)

So even if I keep Dan Marino's completion number the same I extrapolate to today's rules that he chucks it at a 62-38 ratio he ends up with the following number:

Marino (extrapolated): 404 630 5670

To get to 6000 at the same YPA he would have to have the following numbers
Marino (6000): 428 667 6000

So you might be right, but I was just going tongue in cheek about 6,000...I think it's pretty darn close and honestly I think Dan Marino's numbers including YPA would be bigger in this day and age of football.

to get to 6,000 on YPA on the extrapolated number would mean a 9.5 YPA.

Given today's rule changes do you think that isn't possible?

brothervad

feltdizz
12-28-2011, 03:26 AM
Marino's numbers are more impressive.

Ghost
12-28-2011, 09:25 AM
There should be 10 QB's going over the 4000 yard mark this season. Insane. Might as well put handcuffs on the DB's. The rules favoring the passing game as well as the refs throwing a PI flag on almost every incomplete pass have turned the NFL into a video game (and that's not a compliment).

papillon
12-28-2011, 10:18 AM
There's more to the ease at which passing numbers are put up in today's game than the Mel Blount rule. Offensive linemen have been given great latitude in how they can pass block (hold legally), chop/cut blocks have been all but eliminated, the referees call the ticky-tack illegal contact after 5 yards way more frequently in today's game than they did 27 years ago and Dan stayed clean mostly because he had the quickest, most accurate release of any quarterback ever and I don't think this is even close.

Dan liked to live to play the next down and was never averse to throwing 1 or 2 away in a series if he had to.

Add that to the defenseless receiver stuff and you have a formula for video game statistics from quarterbacks.

Just for the record, I don't like the neutering of the defenses at all and don't really care for the high scoring, move the ball up and down the field with very little resistance football that we see today.

It reminds me of baseball, no one likes to watch a pitchers' duel any longer, everyone wants to see the 3 run homerun. Which is contradictory to what everyone says when they say they want more action in baseball; if you want action in baseball then small ball and pitching is what you should want to see, not, two singles and a three run bomb.

A walk/single, stolen base, a sacrifice bunt and a sacrifice fly generate more action and cause more players to be involved in a baseball game than two singles and a bomb. The problem is that one option scores one run and the other scores three, but there was more action in the one run score.

A well played defensive and offensive game generate more action in football games than when the defenses are helpless to stop the offenses, because you get plays on both sides of the ball when the defense can actually do something about the offense. Right now there are limited numbers of plays being made on the defensive side of the ball in general in the NFL.

Pappy

D Rock
12-28-2011, 10:24 AM
It's a bit extreme to say 4 QBs will break Marino's mark.

Only Brees and Brady are essentially locks. The others would need monster games even in today's NFL to get there. Rodgers would need nearly 450 yds in a game he doesn't need to play in. Eli Manning would need 500 yards. I highly highly highly doubt either happens.




The thing that stands out the most to me about all these passing yardage totals...

...that the Steelers lead the league in yards allowed...again...even with a porous run defense this year allowing 40ish yards more per game than they did last year.

The Steelers have the top rated pass defense allowing only 172.2 ypg. Incredible with todays rules and our past shortcomings in that area.

:tt1 :tt1 :tt1

ikestops85
12-28-2011, 10:25 AM
There should be 10 QB's going over the 4000 yard mark this season. Insane. Might as well put handcuffs on the DB's. The rules favoring the passing game as well as the refs throwing a PI flag on almost every incomplete pass have turned the NFL into a video game (and that's not a compliment).

and have you also noticed that when the ball is un-catchable and they can't call PI they immediately go to either illegal contact or defensive holding. They have nullified the un-catchable ball part. It really has to be frustrating for defensive players in this day and age. :HeadBanger

rockonsteel
12-28-2011, 10:27 AM
While I'm not disagreeing with what you guys are saying, I will point out that, realistically, the record is only likely to be broken by 2 QBs, which is still a lot for a record that was never gonna fall in the first place.

There's Brees, who has obviously already broken it, and will be adding to that this Sunday. And Brady, who only needs 185 yds to pass Marino. He'll probably do that.

Eli needs nearly 500 yds. to pass him. Could happen. Not likely. And Aaron Rodgers needs nearly 450 yds. to pass him. He certainly could do that. I doubt he's in that game long enough to throw for that many yds.

So Brady will probably be the only other one to pass Marino, but the fact that so many guys are in the neighborhood is just ridiculous.

Rockon

rockonsteel
12-28-2011, 10:32 AM
It's a bit extreme to say 4 QBs will break Marino's mark.

Only Brees and Brady are essentially locks. The others would need monster games even in today's NFL to get there. Rodgers would need nearly 450 yds in a game he doesn't need to play in. Eli Manning would need 500 yards. I highly highly highly doubt either happens.




The thing that stands out the most to me about all these passing yardage totals...

...that the Steelers lead the league in yards allowed...again...even with a porous run defense this year allowing 40ish yards more per game than they did last year.

The Steelers have the top rated pass defense allowing only 172.2 ypg. Incredible with todays rules and our past shortcomings in that area.

:tt1 :tt1 :tt1


D Rock, I swear I did not plaigarize. Apparently we were on the exact same wavelength, you were just a couple minutes ahead of me. I guess it's true what they say, great minds think alike.

:tt2 :Cheers


Rockon

steeler_fan_in_t.o.
12-28-2011, 11:48 AM
Marino also never had a running game. Everyone in the house knew that he was going to throw. Brees actually has a couple of good RBs.

Imagine what those two Marks Brother midgets could have accomplished knowing that they could go over the middle without fear of being hit.

SteelCrazy
12-28-2011, 12:11 PM
Maybe I'm wrong about Marino, but I'm going from memory and it seems he was always chucking the ball, but that could be because of the times and all other teams relying on the run makes it seem he was throwing the ball a lot more than he was really. I know he had a great OL that protected him very well.

The more comments I read the more I'm swayed to believe Marino could have done better under today's rules. Maybe 5088 yards. :o

steeler_fan_in_t.o.
12-28-2011, 12:38 PM
Maybe I'm wrong about Marino, but I'm going from memory and it seems he was always chucking the ball, but that could be because of the times and all other teams relying on the run makes it seem he was throwing the ball a lot more than he was really. I know he had a great OL that protected him very well.

The more comments I read the more I'm swayed to believe Marino could have done better under today's rules. Maybe 5088 yards. :o

Any QB would have done better under today's rules.

Jigawatts
12-28-2011, 02:55 PM
In Marinos day you were allowed to separate the ball from the receiver, not so much
today unless you want to forfeit $25,000 and make a trip to NYC so Mr. Goodell
can tell you that it's not acceptable to play football like that anymore.

I guess at 32 you can call me a younger fan (maybe I don't qualify unless I wear skinny
jeans) but I'm not a big fan of the way the game is played today. I'd rather see a 16-13
ladders and chairs match than a 42-35 shoot out.

And I absolutely hate fantasy football. How anyone can cheer for a player on a hated
team is beyond me. :roll:

p.s. - Sorry fantasy nerds. Please don't tell your mom that I made fun of you. :lol:

rockonsteel
12-28-2011, 03:15 PM
And I absolutely hate fantasy football. How anyone can cheer for a player on a hated
team is beyond me. :roll:

p.s. - Sorry fantasy nerds. Please don't tell your mom that I made fun of you. :lol:


:Agree :Cheers :Clap

Fantasy football is doing it's best to ruin real football.

Rockon

tiproast
12-29-2011, 02:34 PM
Maybe I'm wrong about Marino, but I'm going from memory and it seems he was always chucking the ball, but that could be because of the times and all other teams relying on the run makes it seem he was throwing the ball a lot more than he was really. I know he had a great OL that protected him very well.

The more comments I read the more I'm swayed to believe Marino could have done better under today's rules. Maybe 5088 yards. :o
In 1984, the Dolphins passed 572 times, and ran 484. That's a difference of 88 - on average they passed about 5-6 more times than they ran each game.

The 2011 Saints are much more unbalanced. Through 15 games, they've passed 624 times and rushed 396. That's a difference of 228 - which mean that they average 15 more passing plays than run plays every game.

The 2011 Steelers will finish about where the 1984 Dolphins did in terms of balance - right now they have 101 more pass plays than run plays.

The 2011 Patriots are more unbalanced than the 1984 Dolphins, but less unbalanced than the 2011 Saints (about 170 more passes than runs so far).

DukieBoy
12-29-2011, 04:42 PM
Maybe I'm wrong about Marino, but I'm going from memory and it seems he was always chucking the ball, but that could be because of the times and all other teams relying on the run makes it seem he was throwing the ball a lot more than he was really. I know he had a great OL that protected him very well.

The more comments I read the more I'm swayed to believe Marino could have done better under today's rules. Maybe 5088 yards. :o
In 1984, the Dolphins passed 572 times, and ran 484. That's a difference of 88 - on average they passed about 5-6 more times than they ran each game.

The 2011 Saints are much more unbalanced. Through 15 games, they've passed 624 times and rushed 396. That's a difference of 228 - which mean that they average 15 more passing plays than run plays every game.

The 2011 Steelers will finish about where the 1984 Dolphins did in terms of balance - right now they have 101 more pass plays than run plays.

The 2011 Patriots are more unbalanced than the 1984 Dolphins, but less unbalanced than the 2011 Saints (about 170 more passes than runs so far).

Good info, thanks. Do you have YPA on the QB's involved. YPA would add some interest to the comparisons of Marino, Brees, Roethlisberger and Brady.

brothervad
12-29-2011, 10:01 PM
As I posted before:

Marino YPA 9.0
Brees YPA 8.2

Now to add others
Brady YPA 8.5
E. Manning YPA 8.3
Big Ben 8.15
Rogers 9.3

Given that the quickest release I have ever seen is from Dan Marino I would say you could plug in Rogers YPA numbers easily given today's no touch the WR football.

you put Dan Marino in GB/Rogers YPA where it's a 58% pass 42% run his numbers look like this:

Marino (YPA 9.3):--327-564 5245 yards

Marino (YPA 9.3 with NO 62%-38% ratio):--404-630 5859

Perhaps a reach but looking back in 1984 these are the number on YPA for QB's that year:

Yds/Pass Att
1. Dan Marino*+ MIA 9.0
2. Joe Montana* SFO 8.4
3. Neil Lomax* STL 8.2
4. Steve Bartkowski ATL 8.0
Lynn Dickey GNB 8.0
6. Mark Malone PIT 7.9
7. Ken Anderson CIN 7.7
8. Dave Krieg* SEA 7.6
Marc Wilson RAI 7.6
Phil Simms NYG 7.6

A couple of things to note--Boo Malone was 6th in the NFL for YPA :wft
And more importantly just how far above his competition Dan Marino was at the time. It is very similar to Rogers:

Aaron Rodgers, QB GB 9.25
Tom Brady, QB NE 8.5
Matt Schaub, QB HOU 8.49
Eli Manning, QB NYG 8.25
Carson Palmer, QB OAK 8.2
Drew Brees, QB NO 8.18
Ben Roethlisberger, QB PIT 8.15
Tony Romo, QB DAL 8.03
Cam Newton, QB CAR 7.91
Philip Rivers, QB SD 7.76

If I wanted to take this further, I probably would compare league Pass to run % then to now just to guage how different the overall situation is in the NFL and use that overall % increase as a modifier to the pass/run ratio of Marino 84.

Suffice to say...yes 6,000 may be overstating it...but not by much.

brothervad

DukieBoy
12-29-2011, 10:37 PM
As I posted before:

Marino YPA 9.0
Brees YPA 8.2

Now to add others
Brady YPA 8.5
E. Manning YPA 8.3
Big Ben 8.15
Rogers 9.3

Given that the quickest release I have ever seen is from Dan Marino I would say you could plug in Rogers YPA numbers easily given today's no touch the WR football.

you put Dan Marino in GB/Rogers YPA where it's a 58% pass 42% run his numbers look like this:

Marino (YPA 9.3):--327-564 5245 yards

Marino (YPA 9.3 with NO 62%-38% ratio):--404-630 5859

Perhaps a reach but looking back in 1984 these are the number on YPA for QB's that year:

Yds/Pass Att
1. Dan Marino*+ MIA 9.0
2. Joe Montana* SFO 8.4
3. Neil Lomax* STL 8.2
4. Steve Bartkowski ATL 8.0
Lynn Dickey GNB 8.0
6. Mark Malone PIT 7.9
7. Ken Anderson CIN 7.7
8. Dave Krieg* SEA 7.6
Marc Wilson RAI 7.6
Phil Simms NYG 7.6

A couple of things to note--Boo Malone was 6th in the NFL for YPA :wft
And more importantly just how far above his competition Dan Marino was at the time. It is very similar to Rogers:

Aaron Rodgers, QB GB 9.25
Tom Brady, QB NE 8.5
Matt Schaub, QB HOU 8.49
Eli Manning, QB NYG 8.25
Carson Palmer, QB OAK 8.2
Drew Brees, QB NO 8.18
Ben Roethlisberger, QB PIT 8.15
Tony Romo, QB DAL 8.03
Cam Newton, QB CAR 7.91
Philip Rivers, QB SD 7.76

If I wanted to take this further, I probably would compare league Pass to run % then to now just to guage how different the overall situation is in the NFL and use that overall % increase as a modifier to the pass/run ratio of Marino 84.

Suffice to say...yes 6,000 may be overstating it...but not by much.

brothervad

Good info. Thanks for re-posting. It gives a depth of perspective.

BradshawsHairdresser
12-30-2011, 10:32 AM
Great thread. And I agree with all of you who don't like the modern, pass-happier direction of professional football. I too, am watching less NFL these days. Hardly ever watch anymore unless it's the Steelers playing.

skyhawk
12-31-2011, 01:57 PM
And I absolutely hate fantasy football. How anyone can cheer for a player on a hated
team is beyond me. :roll:

p.s. - Sorry fantasy nerds. Please don't tell your mom that I made fun of you. :lol:


:Agree :Cheers :Clap

Fantasy football is doing it's best to ruin real football.

Rockon

This was what I was gonna post. :Agree

The love of stats IS ruining the league. Plus look at Brees and Rodgers defenses. In the bottom 5 for the both of them. It's quickly becoming ARENA FOOTBALL folks.

frankthetank1
12-31-2011, 02:03 PM
i wouldnt say fantasy football is ruining the game since its been around for a very long time. only in the last 7 or 8 years its become extremely popular. i would say a combanation of different things has turned the nfl into arena football. the biggest reason for the change i think has been the rule changes. its impossible for defenses to play actual defense anymore. marino didnt really play all that long ago in the scope of things however the game is played very differently now compared to the 80's and 90's

SteelAbility
12-31-2011, 03:10 PM
All the NFL has done here is to throw more water into the soup. Instead of thinking of rules that emphasize pure essence of football to make the game thicker and heartier, they've watered down the meaning of scoring and offense. :roll:

RuthlessBurgher
12-31-2011, 04:51 PM
All the NFL has done here is to throw more water into the soup. Instead of thinking of rules that emphasize pure essence of football to make the game thicker and heartier, they've watered down the meaning of scoring and offense. :roll:

So you are saying that Campbell's soup should stop using their Chunky soups for their NFL ads and switch instead to their chicken broth? :wink:

SteelAbility
01-01-2012, 10:31 AM
All the NFL has done here is to throw more water into the soup. Instead of thinking of rules that emphasize pure essence of football to make the game thicker and heartier, they've watered down the meaning of scoring and offense. :roll:

So you are saying that Campbell's soup should stop using their Chunky soups for their NFL ads and switch instead to their chicken broth? :wink:

That's EXACTLY what I was thinking! :Cheers :P Plus, it would be a whole lot more representative of the truth. I really appreciate truth in advertising.

Ghost
01-01-2012, 12:49 PM
Saw this blurb on Grantland.com and thought of this thread:

Was it right that I didn't get excited about Drew Brees' new passing yards record? It reminds me of Oscar Robertson averaging a triple-double, or any of the Bonds/McGwire home run records; it's impossible to separate the era from the accomplishment itself. When Dan Marino threw for 5,084 yards in 1984, you were allowed to (a) pummel the QB every chance you had, (b) dive at the QB's knees as he was throwing the ball, (c) crush any receiver coming over the middle, and (d) jam receivers at the line by any means necessary, even if you had to use a crowbar or a chainsaw. It was impossible to throw for 5,000 yards back then. Only two other 1984 QBs cracked 4,000 yards (Neil Lomax and Phil Simms); nobody else cracked 3,800 yards; and only five guys even attempted 500+ passes (Marino's 564 was the highest). In 2011? Ten QBs will crack 4,000 yards; six will crack 4,500 yards; two (including Tom Brady) will crack 5,000 yards. Heading into Week 17, ten 2011 QBs have already thrown more than 500+ passes, with Brees leading the way with 622. It's a totally different game. Heading forward, we're going to see multiple QBs throw for 5,000 yards every season right?

DukieBoy
01-01-2012, 02:34 PM
Saw this blurb on Grantland.com and thought of this thread:

Was it right that I didn't get excited about Drew Brees' new passing yards record? It reminds me of Oscar Robertson averaging a triple-double, or any of the Bonds/McGwire home run records; it's impossible to separate the era from the accomplishment itself. When Dan Marino threw for 5,084 yards in 1984, you were allowed to (a) pummel the QB every chance you had, (b) dive at the QB's knees as he was throwing the ball, (c) crush any receiver coming over the middle, and (d) jam receivers at the line by any means necessary, even if you had to use a crowbar or a chainsaw. It was impossible to throw for 5,000 yards back then. Only two other 1984 QBs cracked 4,000 yards (Neil Lomax and Phil Simms); nobody else cracked 3,800 yards; and only five guys even attempted 500+ passes (Marino's 564 was the highest). In 2011? Ten QBs will crack 4,000 yards; six will crack 4,500 yards; two (including Tom Brady) will crack 5,000 yards. Heading into Week 17, ten 2011 QBs have already thrown more than 500+ passes, with Brees leading the way with 622. It's a totally different game. Heading forward, we're going to see multiple QBs throw for 5,000 yards every season right?

Excellent info, Ghost ! :Clap :Clap :Clap