PDA

View Full Version : Sometimes ya just have to admit you were wrong...



Dee Dub
12-20-2011, 06:18 PM
And I am here to do exactly that. I think it is time (in the off-season of course), to go back to what is the true Steeler identity. I think it would be best if the Steelers were more of a power running team. I am not advocating a run more than pass mentality. But I do think it has to be at least a lot closer to 50-50 than it is now. It will help the entire offense...and it will also help the defense. We are not the Packers, Saints, or the Patriots. We are the Steelers.

Our young core of receivers would be even more dangerous if teams had respect the run. Right now they dont. It would appear as if the Steelers are seeing a lot more deep cover two shells lately.

If we continue on this trend, throwing the ball 34.07 times a game, Ben isnt going to last too much longer.

And I will add, I do not think Rashard Mendenhall is the back the Steelers need to make this happen.

Mister Pittsburgh
12-20-2011, 06:33 PM
And I am here to do exactly that. I think it is time (in the off-season of course), to go back to what is the true Steeler identity. I think it would be best if the Steelers were more of a power running team. I am not advocating a run more than pass mentality. But I do think it has to be at least a lot closer to 50-50 than it is now. It will help the entire offense...and it will also help the defense. We are not the Packers, Saints, or the Patriots. We are the Steelers.

Our young core of receivers would be even more dangerous if teams had respect the run. Right now they dont. It would appear as if the Steelers are seeing a lot more deep cover two shells lately.

If we continue on this trend, throwing the ball 34.07 times a game, Ben isnt going to last too much longer.

And I will add, I do not think Rashard Mendenhall is the back the Steelers need to make this happen.

Teams don't respect the Patriots running game. Teams don't respect the Saints running game. Teams don't respect the Packers running game. Those teams spread teams out and pick them apart then hit the homerun when its there. They don't force it. The three constants on offense that have been with the team since Tomlin took over are:
A) Ben as the QB.
B) Arians as the OC.
C) The line is a bunch of castoffs that wouldn't start on most playoff teams lines.

I think its time to correct B & C cause A isn't going anywhere for a while. We got the weapons, more than most truth be told, to run an awesome passing offense. Just have to get someone in here that can create a system based on the weapons we have, and that isn't afraid to get in Ben's face when he is making idiotic decisions.

Example....Ben drops back to pass, Wallace runs a route into the endzone and has 3 defenders there with him. Brown runs a route streaking about 10 yards downfield and beats his man and is wide open with nobody in front of him for the next 15 yards. Ben chooses to go deep to Wallace in triple coverage...result...an interception. Then on the sideline there is Arians who doesn't say boo to him about hitting the EASY, high percentage pass and continuing the drive.

Here is Bruce Arians offense with Ben at QB in a nutshell.....330 passing yards, 70 rushing yards, 3 points.

Dee Dub
12-20-2011, 06:48 PM
[quote="Dee Dub":1r14p36o]And I am here to do exactly that. I think it is time (in the off-season of course), to go back to what is the true Steeler identity. I think it would be best if the Steelers were more of a power running team. I am not advocating a run more than pass mentality. But I do think it has to be at least a lot closer to 50-50 than it is now. It will help the entire offense...and it will also help the defense. We are not the Packers, Saints, or the Patriots. We are the Steelers.

Our young core of receivers would be even more dangerous if teams had respect the run. Right now they dont. It would appear as if the Steelers are seeing a lot more deep cover two shells lately.

If we continue on this trend, throwing the ball 34.07 times a game, Ben isnt going to last too much longer.

And I will add, I do not think Rashard Mendenhall is the back the Steelers need to make this happen.

Teams don't respect the Patriots running game. Teams don't respect the Saints running game. Teams don't respect the Packers running game. Those teams spread teams out and pick them apart then hit the homerun when its there. They don't force it. The three constants on offense that have been with the team since Tomlin took over are:
A) Ben as the QB.
B) Arians as the OC.
C) The line is a bunch of castoffs that wouldn't start on most playoff teams lines.

I think its time to correct B & C cause A isn't going anywhere for a while. We got the weapons, more than most truth be told, to run an awesome passing offense. Just have to get someone in here that can create a system based on the weapons we have, and that isn't afraid to get in Ben's face when he is making idiotic decisions.

Example....Ben drops back to pass, Wallace runs a route into the endzone and has 3 defenders there with him. Brown runs a route streaking about 10 yards downfield and beats his man and is wide open with nobody in front of him for the next 15 yards. Ben chooses to go deep to Wallace in triple coverage...result...an interception. Then on the sideline there is Arians who doesn't say boo to him about hitting the EASY, high percentage pass and continuing the drive.

Here is Bruce Arians offense with Ben at QB in a nutshell.....330 passing yards, 70 rushing yards, 3 points.[/quote:1r14p36o]

Wouldnt you rather see a little more balance on offense? And a down hill runner at RB? I do.

Discipline of Steel
12-20-2011, 07:01 PM
I have been disgusted seeing McLain then Leech at FB for the Ravens
when its been McHugh then Johnson at Hback for us.
We are always passing on 3rd and 2.

BradshawsHairdresser
12-20-2011, 09:28 PM
And I am here to do exactly that. I think it is time (in the off-season of course), to go back to what is the true Steeler identity. I think it would be best if the Steelers were more of a power running team. I am not advocating a run more than pass mentality. But I do think it has to be at least a lot closer to 50-50 than it is now. It will help the entire offense...and it will also help the defense. We are not the Packers, Saints, or the Patriots. We are the Steelers.

Our young core of receivers would be even more dangerous if teams had respect the run. Right now they dont. It would appear as if the Steelers are seeing a lot more deep cover two shells lately.

If we continue on this trend, throwing the ball 34.07 times a game, Ben isnt going to last too much longer.

And I will add, I do not think Rashard Mendenhall is the back the Steelers need to make this happen.

Agreed on all points.

Captain Lemming
12-21-2011, 03:38 AM
[quote="Dee Dub":2b9ahwke]And I am here to do exactly that. I think it is time (in the off-season of course), to go back to what is the true Steeler identity. I think it would be best if the Steelers were more of a power running team. I am not advocating a run more than pass mentality. But I do think it has to be at least a lot closer to 50-50 than it is now. It will help the entire offense...and it will also help the defense. We are not the Packers, Saints, or the Patriots. We are the Steelers.

Our young core of receivers would be even more dangerous if teams had respect the run. Right now they dont. It would appear as if the Steelers are seeing a lot more deep cover two shells lately.

If we continue on this trend, throwing the ball 34.07 times a game, Ben isnt going to last too much longer.

And I will add, I do not think Rashard Mendenhall is the back the Steelers need to make this happen.

Teams don't respect the Patriots running game. Teams don't respect the Saints running game. Teams don't respect the Packers running game. Those teams spread teams out and pick them apart then hit the homerun when its there. They don't force it. The three constants on offense that have been with the team since Tomlin took over are:
A) Ben as the QB.
B) Arians as the OC.
C) The line is a bunch of castoffs that wouldn't start on most playoff teams lines.

I think its time to correct B & C cause A isn't going anywhere for a while. We got the weapons, more than most truth be told, to run an awesome passing offense. Just have to get someone in here that can create a system based on the weapons we have, and that isn't afraid to get in Ben's face when he is making idiotic decisions.

Example....Ben drops back to pass, Wallace runs a route into the endzone and has 3 defenders there with him. Brown runs a route streaking about 10 yards downfield and beats his man and is wide open with nobody in front of him for the next 15 yards. Ben chooses to go deep to Wallace in triple coverage...result...an interception. Then on the sideline there is Arians who doesn't say boo to him about hitting the EASY, high percentage pass and continuing the drive.

Here is Bruce Arians offense with Ben at QB in a nutshell.....330 passing yards, 70 rushing yards, 3 points.[/quote:2b9ahwke]
Is that on Arians?
Remember Cowher said Ben "gets greedy".
People slammed him for daring to imply Ben was not perfect.

If Ben is ignoring open receivers that is on him.

Captain Lemming
12-21-2011, 03:45 AM
And I am here to do exactly that. I think it is time (in the off-season of course), to go back to what is the true Steeler identity. I think it would be best if the Steelers were more of a power running team. I am not advocating a run more than pass mentality. But I do think it has to be at least a lot closer to 50-50 than it is now. It will help the entire offense...and it will also help the defense. We are not the Packers, Saints, or the Patriots. We are the Steelers.

Our young core of receivers would be even more dangerous if teams had respect the run. Right now they dont. It would appear as if the Steelers are seeing a lot more deep cover two shells lately.

If we continue on this trend, throwing the ball 34.07 times a game, Ben isnt going to last too much longer.

And I will add, I do not think Rashard Mendenhall is the back the Steelers need to make this happen.

I almost never agree with you but that is a Money post.

BradshawsHairdresser
12-21-2011, 10:05 AM
[quote="Mister Pittsburgh":19vvuzql][quote="Dee Dub":19vvuzql]And I am here to do exactly that. I think it is time (in the off-season of course), to go back to what is the true Steeler identity. I think it would be best if the Steelers were more of a power running team. I am not advocating a run more than pass mentality. But I do think it has to be at least a lot closer to 50-50 than it is now. It will help the entire offense...and it will also help the defense. We are not the Packers, Saints, or the Patriots. We are the Steelers.

Our young core of receivers would be even more dangerous if teams had respect the run. Right now they dont. It would appear as if the Steelers are seeing a lot more deep cover two shells lately.

If we continue on this trend, throwing the ball 34.07 times a game, Ben isnt going to last too much longer.

And I will add, I do not think Rashard Mendenhall is the back the Steelers need to make this happen.

Teams don't respect the Patriots running game. Teams don't respect the Saints running game. Teams don't respect the Packers running game. Those teams spread teams out and pick them apart then hit the homerun when its there. They don't force it. The three constants on offense that have been with the team since Tomlin took over are:
A) Ben as the QB.
B) Arians as the OC.
C) The line is a bunch of castoffs that wouldn't start on most playoff teams lines.

I think its time to correct B & C cause A isn't going anywhere for a while. We got the weapons, more than most truth be told, to run an awesome passing offense. Just have to get someone in here that can create a system based on the weapons we have, and that isn't afraid to get in Ben's face when he is making idiotic decisions.

Example....Ben drops back to pass, Wallace runs a route into the endzone and has 3 defenders there with him. Brown runs a route streaking about 10 yards downfield and beats his man and is wide open with nobody in front of him for the next 15 yards. Ben chooses to go deep to Wallace in triple coverage...result...an interception. Then on the sideline there is Arians who doesn't say boo to him about hitting the EASY, high percentage pass and continuing the drive.

Here is Bruce Arians offense with Ben at QB in a nutshell.....330 passing yards, 70 rushing yards, 3 points.[/quote:19vvuzql]
Is that on Arians?
Remember Cowher said Ben "gets greedy".
People slammed him for daring to imply Ben was not perfect.

If Ben is ignoring open receivers that is on him.[/quote:19vvuzql]

I think what the OP is saying is that Ben needs an OC who will get in his face when he ignores open receivers and forces the ball into double and triple coverage. Even Tom Brady has an OC who does that to him. But do either Tomlin or Arians ever challenge Ben when he does something wrong? I don't know.

feltdizz
12-21-2011, 10:51 AM
[quote="Mister Pittsburgh":3c7ithuj][quote="Dee Dub":3c7ithuj]And I am here to do exactly that. I think it is time (in the off-season of course), to go back to what is the true Steeler identity. I think it would be best if the Steelers were more of a power running team. I am not advocating a run more than pass mentality. But I do think it has to be at least a lot closer to 50-50 than it is now. It will help the entire offense...and it will also help the defense. We are not the Packers, Saints, or the Patriots. We are the Steelers.

Our young core of receivers would be even more dangerous if teams had respect the run. Right now they dont. It would appear as if the Steelers are seeing a lot more deep cover two shells lately.

If we continue on this trend, throwing the ball 34.07 times a game, Ben isnt going to last too much longer.

And I will add, I do not think Rashard Mendenhall is the back the Steelers need to make this happen.

Teams don't respect the Patriots running game. Teams don't respect the Saints running game. Teams don't respect the Packers running game. Those teams spread teams out and pick them apart then hit the homerun when its there. They don't force it. The three constants on offense that have been with the team since Tomlin took over are:
A) Ben as the QB.
B) Arians as the OC.
C) The line is a bunch of castoffs that wouldn't start on most playoff teams lines.

I think its time to correct B & C cause A isn't going anywhere for a while. We got the weapons, more than most truth be told, to run an awesome passing offense. Just have to get someone in here that can create a system based on the weapons we have, and that isn't afraid to get in Ben's face when he is making idiotic decisions.

Example....Ben drops back to pass, Wallace runs a route into the endzone and has 3 defenders there with him. Brown runs a route streaking about 10 yards downfield and beats his man and is wide open with nobody in front of him for the next 15 yards. Ben chooses to go deep to Wallace in triple coverage...result...an interception. Then on the sideline there is Arians who doesn't say boo to him about hitting the EASY, high percentage pass and continuing the drive.

Here is Bruce Arians offense with Ben at QB in a nutshell.....330 passing yards, 70 rushing yards, 3 points.[/quote:3c7ithuj]
Is that on Arians?
Remember Cowher said Ben "gets greedy".
People slammed him for daring to imply Ben was not perfect.

If Ben is ignoring open receivers that is on him.[/quote:3c7ithuj]

Nonsense... every Pick and long throw is a BA decision. :lol:

phillyesq
12-21-2011, 10:58 AM
And I am here to do exactly that. I think it is time (in the off-season of course), to go back to what is the true Steeler identity. I think it would be best if the Steelers were more of a power running team. I am not advocating a run more than pass mentality. But I do think it has to be at least a lot closer to 50-50 than it is now. It will help the entire offense...and it will also help the defense. We are not the Packers, Saints, or the Patriots. We are the Steelers.

Our young core of receivers would be even more dangerous if teams had respect the run. Right now they dont. It would appear as if the Steelers are seeing a lot more deep cover two shells lately.

If we continue on this trend, throwing the ball 34.07 times a game, Ben isnt going to last too much longer.

And I will add, I do not think Rashard Mendenhall is the back the Steelers need to make this happen.

:Agree

Imagine the Steelers offense with an offensive line that is was a strength and a Michael Bush type at RB.

Mister Pittsburgh
12-21-2011, 11:25 AM
[quote="Mister Pittsburgh":pq01212l][quote="Dee Dub":pq01212l]And I am here to do exactly that. I think it is time (in the off-season of course), to go back to what is the true Steeler identity. I think it would be best if the Steelers were more of a power running team. I am not advocating a run more than pass mentality. But I do think it has to be at least a lot closer to 50-50 than it is now. It will help the entire offense...and it will also help the defense. We are not the Packers, Saints, or the Patriots. We are the Steelers.

Our young core of receivers would be even more dangerous if teams had respect the run. Right now they dont. It would appear as if the Steelers are seeing a lot more deep cover two shells lately.

If we continue on this trend, throwing the ball 34.07 times a game, Ben isnt going to last too much longer.

And I will add, I do not think Rashard Mendenhall is the back the Steelers need to make this happen.

Teams don't respect the Patriots running game. Teams don't respect the Saints running game. Teams don't respect the Packers running game. Those teams spread teams out and pick them apart then hit the homerun when its there. They don't force it. The three constants on offense that have been with the team since Tomlin took over are:
A) Ben as the QB.
B) Arians as the OC.
C) The line is a bunch of castoffs that wouldn't start on most playoff teams lines.

I think its time to correct B & C cause A isn't going anywhere for a while. We got the weapons, more than most truth be told, to run an awesome passing offense. Just have to get someone in here that can create a system based on the weapons we have, and that isn't afraid to get in Ben's face when he is making idiotic decisions.

Example....Ben drops back to pass, Wallace runs a route into the endzone and has 3 defenders there with him. Brown runs a route streaking about 10 yards downfield and beats his man and is wide open with nobody in front of him for the next 15 yards. Ben chooses to go deep to Wallace in triple coverage...result...an interception. Then on the sideline there is Arians who doesn't say boo to him about hitting the EASY, high percentage pass and continuing the drive.

Here is Bruce Arians offense with Ben at QB in a nutshell.....330 passing yards, 70 rushing yards, 3 points.[/quote:pq01212l]

Wouldnt you rather see a little more balance on offense? And a down hill runner at RB? I do.[/quote:pq01212l]

Honestly, no. I want to see an offensive coordinator that isn't an f'n idiot for once. When we had 2 & 3 TE sets on teh field Ben threw the ball fine. When we had 3 TE sets Ben struggled throwing and we couldn't run for any yardage. Go watch the first series again.

feltdizz
12-21-2011, 11:54 AM
Does 2 TE's vs 3 TE's make Ben throw the ball differently?

Captain Lemming
12-21-2011, 12:01 PM
[quote="Mister Pittsburgh":2cvonbhu][quote="Dee Dub":2cvonbhu]And I am here to do exactly that. I think it is time (in the off-season of course), to go back to what is the true Steeler identity. I think it would be best if the Steelers were more of a power running team. I am not advocating a run more than pass mentality. But I do think it has to be at least a lot closer to 50-50 than it is now. It will help the entire offense...and it will also help the defense. We are not the Packers, Saints, or the Patriots. We are the Steelers.

Our young core of receivers would be even more dangerous if teams had respect the run. Right now they dont. It would appear as if the Steelers are seeing a lot more deep cover two shells lately.

If we continue on this trend, throwing the ball 34.07 times a game, Ben isnt going to last too much longer.

And I will add, I do not think Rashard Mendenhall is the back the Steelers need to make this happen.

Teams don't respect the Patriots running game. Teams don't respect the Saints running game. Teams don't respect the Packers running game. Those teams spread teams out and pick them apart then hit the homerun when its there. They don't force it. The three constants on offense that have been with the team since Tomlin took over are:
A) Ben as the QB.
B) Arians as the OC.
C) The line is a bunch of castoffs that wouldn't start on most playoff teams lines.

I think its time to correct B & C cause A isn't going anywhere for a while. We got the weapons, more than most truth be told, to run an awesome passing offense. Just have to get someone in here that can create a system based on the weapons we have, and that isn't afraid to get in Ben's face when he is making idiotic decisions.

Example....Ben drops back to pass, Wallace runs a route into the endzone and has 3 defenders there with him. Brown runs a route streaking about 10 yards downfield and beats his man and is wide open with nobody in front of him for the next 15 yards. Ben chooses to go deep to Wallace in triple coverage...result...an interception. Then on the sideline there is Arians who doesn't say boo to him about hitting the EASY, high percentage pass and continuing the drive.

Here is Bruce Arians offense with Ben at QB in a nutshell.....330 passing yards, 70 rushing yards, 3 points.
Is that on Arians?
Remember Cowher said Ben "gets greedy".
People slammed him for daring to imply Ben was not perfect.

If Ben is ignoring open receivers that is on him.[/quote:2cvonbhu]

I think what the OP is saying is that Ben needs an OC who will get in his face when he ignores open receivers and forces the ball into double and triple coverage. Even Tom Brady has an OC who does that to him. But do either Tomlin or Arians ever challenge Ben when he does something wrong? I don't know.[/quote:2cvonbhu]

My point is that Ben's inclination to force the deep ball predates BA as OC. If within the play guys are open he called the right play. The issue is execution. There is no need to scream at the QB. You just over the film later and show him. Ben rebels when he gets publicly called out. BA should show Ben his mistakes privately. Calling a QB out is done for US as fans and is a selfish way for the OC to make sure we know it is the QBs fault.

Ben never responded when he was called on it before. If youhave a problem with plays that are doomed to fail blame BA. If Ben fails to execute a play with receivers who are wide open blame the guy throwing the ball.

Ben is such a hero that nobody wants to give him the blame when he screws up.

feltdizz
12-21-2011, 12:07 PM
My point is that Ben's inclination to force the deep ball predates BA as OC. If within the play guys are open he called the right play. The issue is execution. There is no need to scream at the QB. You just over the film later and show him. Ben rebels when he gets publicly called out. BA should show Ben his mistakes privately. Calling a QB out is done for US as fans and is a selfish way for the OC to make sure we know it is the QBs fault.

Ben never responded when he was called on it before. If youhave a problem with plays that are doomed to fail blame BA. If Ben fails to execute a play with receivers who are wide open blame the guy throwing the ball.

Ben is such a hero that nobody wants to give him the blame when he screws up.

:Agree

Fans will smack babies and kick puppies before admitting Ben screwed up.

Mister Pittsburgh
12-21-2011, 12:14 PM
Does 2 TE's vs 3 TE's make Ben throw the ball differently?

No, it takes WR off the field leaving less open targets leaving him to force it or throw it away. He isn't real good at throwing it away, which yes, is on him....but why limit his targets. Bunching multiple TE's in draws more defenders into the box making it harder to run due to the traffic anyway. Need to have 3 or 4 wide and Mendenhall. Let the G's pull to lead block. This creates less traffic.

BradshawsHairdresser
12-21-2011, 12:36 PM
My point is that Ben's inclination to force the deep ball predates BA as OC. If within the play guys are open he called the right play. The issue is execution. There is no need to scream at the QB. You just over the film later and show him. Ben rebels when he gets publicly called out. BA should show Ben his mistakes privately. Calling a QB out is done for US as fans and is a selfish way for the OC to make sure we know it is the QBs fault.

Ben never responded when he was called on it before. If youhave a problem with plays that are doomed to fail blame BA. If Ben fails to execute a play with receivers who are wide open blame the guy throwing the ball.

Ben is such a hero that nobody wants to give him the blame when he screws up.

I agree that there's no need to scream at Ben in public. I never found that to be necessary. But I wonder if BA and Tomlin are really even pointing out his mistakes in private? Because you see the same things over and over again. And if Ben is ignoring their orders, then Ben bears responsibility, but at some point, aren't Arians and Tomlin responsible to do something to reign him in?

Ben was obviously struggling in the SF game because of his bum leg, and should have been pulled. He told reporters after the game that he had been ordered to come out, but he refused. So is that on Ben or on his coaches? Both, I guess...but I have to wonder if the coaches bear the greater responsibility in that situation, since they are supposed to be in charge.

Shawn
12-21-2011, 01:12 PM
I agree Dubs. But, I have always been a balance kinda guy. I like a solid clock eating, power run game. I like it for many reasons.

1) Rest for our D.
2) Takes the top off of coverage for Wallace and Brown
3) 3 and short
4) Redzone
5) Lead control

When people use teams like the Pats, Packers and Saints to validate using a super pass heavy O...I must ask just because they play like that...is it best? Would they be even more effective if they had a solid run game? I think in all cases the answer is yes.

Being able to pass effectively out of run formations, and to run effectively out of pass formations is the key to keeping D's honest. I can't imagine ever changing my mind on this issue.

Mister Pittsburgh
12-21-2011, 01:44 PM
We don't have the offensive line to be a quality running team. We haven't had a quality offensive line since 2005 when Hartings retired and Faneca left. We went from having two pro bowl interior linemen to maybe one...if he didn't have a 12 year old girls ankles attached to his body I would say Pouncey is legit. So simply throwing a fullback into the mix instead of the overrated Johnston is not a legit fix.

As long as our line sucks, our best offense is Ben lined up in shotgun, saving himself precious seconds by not having to drop back, with 3 or 4 wides. This gives him the most time to get the snap, survey the field, and throw. He shouldn't of attempted a single pass play from under center on Monday. This is why I compare what we have going on in hopes it can become what Green Bay and the Saints and Pats have going on. Because they aren't running teams either.

feltdizz
12-21-2011, 03:13 PM
I agree Dubs. But, I have always been a balance kinda guy. I like a solid clock eating, power run game. I like it for many reasons.

1) Rest for our D.
2) Takes the top off of coverage for Wallace and Brown
3) 3 and short
4) Redzone
5) Lead control

When people use teams like the Pats, Packers and Saints to validate using a super pass heavy O...I must ask just because they play like that...is it best? Would they be even more effective if they had a solid run game? I think in all cases the answer is yes.

Being able to pass effectively out of run formations, and to run effectively out of pass formations is the key to keeping D's honest. I can't imagine ever changing my mind on this issue.

Someone pointed out the Saints as being a pretty balanced attack last year. They appear to throw a ton but they run just as much.

I don't want a power running game... just block your man and hit the hole.

A ton of this lack of running is the guy we have back there. He isn't running like a 1st round stud.

Mister Pittsburgh
12-21-2011, 03:20 PM
Dizz....you are correct.....the saints do run, so do the pats and GB....how many times do you see those teams bring in two or three TE's, one of which is a worthless HBack? They don't screw around and get cute. They run out of their passing formations. I really think bunching up 3 TE's does nothing more then draw more defenders into the box near the LOS.