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View Full Version : There is no such thing as a clean hit on a QB....



Dee Dub
12-15-2011, 01:31 PM
....in the act of throwing or having just completed a throw. (Sorry, I think this deserved it's own thread)

Even if James Harrison had hit McCoy cleanly, if it was the judgment of the official that he could have stopped his momentum, he was subject to being flagged for unnecessary roughness (an illegal hit). And because it was an illegal hit and because of Harrison's history, he was also still subject to being suspended based on having priors.

I hate the fact that this is happening. I am old school and think the changing of these rules are killing the game of football. But the fact of the matter is these are the rules. You cannot hit a QB anywhere if he is in the act of throwing or has just finished throwing. Clean hits do not exist anymore when it comes to a QB in the act of throwing. Here is the rule. He is now considered a defenseless player.

No defensive player may run into a passer of a legal forward pass after the ball has left his hand (15 yards). The Referee must determine whether opponent had a reasonable chance to stop his momentum during an attempt to block the pass or tackle the passer while he still had the ball.

http://www.nfl.com/rulebook/protectionofpasser

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d8 ... der-review

Rules defining a defenseless player will be expanded and now will include eight categories:

» A quarterback in the act of throwing;

» A receiver trying to catch a pass;

» A runner already in the grasp of tacklers and having his forward progress stopped;

» A player fielding a punt or a kickoff;

» A kicker or punter during the kick;

» A quarterback at any time after change of possession;

» A receiver who receives a blind-side block;

» A player already on the ground.

There is no such thing as a clean hit on a kicker or a punter in the act of kicking. The same can now be said of the QB in the act of throwing.

RuthlessBurgher
12-15-2011, 01:35 PM
You've put this in 3 threads now (including its own).

In none of these instances did you include the last part of the rule, concerning what type of contact is prohibited against a "defenseless" player:


(b) Prohibited contact against a player who is in a defenseless posture is:

(1) Forcibly hitting the defenseless player’s head or neck area with the helmet, facemask, forearm, or shoulder, regardless of whether the defensive player also uses his arms to tackle the defenseless player by encircling or grasping him; and

(2) Lowering the head and making forcible contact with the top/crown or forehead/”hairline” parts of the helmet against any part of the defenseless player’s body.

Dee Dub
12-15-2011, 01:41 PM
You've put this in 3 threads now (including its own).

In none of these instances did you include the last part of the rule, concerning what type of contact is prohibited against a "defenseless" player:


(b) Prohibited contact against a player who is in a defenseless posture is:

(1) Forcibly hitting the defenseless player’s head or neck area with the helmet, facemask, forearm, or shoulder, regardless of whether the defensive player also uses his arms to tackle the defenseless player by encircling or grasping him; and

(2) Lowering the head and making forcible contact with the top/crown or forehead/”hairline” parts of the helmet against any part of the defenseless player’s body.

This is why it needs it's own thread. Some of you arent reading the entire rule. Should I have hi-lighted this?

"The Referee must determine whether opponent had a reasonable chance to stop his momentum during an attempt to block the pass or tackle the passer while he still had the ball."

Notice the part about tackling the passer. A simple clean tackle could be judge as roughing the passer if it is the judgment of the Referee that the defensive player could have stopped his momentum.

Sorry I didnt write these rules or am I in agreement with them. It is the rule. Period.

RuthlessBurgher
12-15-2011, 01:46 PM
The rule prohibits any forcible contact with the QB's head or neck area while passing, and also prohibits a defender from spearing the QB with his helmet anywhere on the QB's body while throwing. In this rule, no other specific defensive actions are prohibited against a QB in the act of throwing.

Dee Dub
12-15-2011, 01:51 PM
The rule prohibits any forcible contact with the QB's head or neck area while passing, and also prohibits a defender from spearing the QB with his helmet anywhere on the QB's body while throwing. In this rule, no other specific defensive actions are prohibited against a QB in the act of throwing.

I agree with that. I am not arguing that. But the rule has been changed to add any hit/tackle on a QB in the act of throwing.


Again, from the rule....

"The Referee must determine whether opponent had a reasonable chance to stop his momentum during an attempt to block the pass or tackle the passer while he still had the ball."

http://www.nfl.com/rulebook/protectionofpasser

I believe this was added by the league last May. In fact I had a thread complaining about this very thing when this came out.

Again, can you hit a kicker or a punter in the act of kicking? Same thing with the QB now.

Dee Dub
12-15-2011, 01:59 PM
Take a look at this text book hit on Drew Brees by James Harrison. Head up, hit in the back, and nicely wrapped up. This was considered a late hit because Brees had just finished throwing and it was deemed that Harrison could have stopped his momentum. This was a $20,000 fine. Before it would have just been a late hit (all-be-it questionable in my book), but now it is fine-able by the league. And if you have history of illegal hits it could lead to a suspension. And this had nothing to do with helmet to helmet contact or leading with the crown of the helmet.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/11/0 ... 79021.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/11/04/james-harrison-fined-2000_n_779021.html)

WindyCitySteel
12-15-2011, 02:02 PM
Unless that quarterback is Ben Roethlisberger.

Dee Dub
12-15-2011, 02:09 PM
Unless that quarterback is Ben Roethlisberger.

True Dat!

sentinel33
12-15-2011, 02:13 PM
This element of the game has changed. Bottom line.

Too much ambiguity. The whole "referee has to determine" factor is BS. A late hit on a QB is now a judgement call? Too much grey area there.

I don't like it.

Pretty much can't touch the QB. If you do, you are risking a penalty due to it's subjectiveness. This alone could determine the outcome of a game. Too much control for the league. Not one into conspiracys, but if I can read between the lines, then so can some of you.

The pass rush is pretty much dead.

Dee Dub
12-15-2011, 02:25 PM
The rule prohibits any forcible contact with the QB's head or neck area while passing, and also prohibits a defender from spearing the QB with his helmet anywhere on the QB's body while throwing. In this rule, no other specific defensive actions are prohibited against a QB in the act of throwing.

One other thing to show the new rules, a face mask to the back of a QB is not spearing with a helmet. However, it is still a fine....

"The league told Harrison he put his facemask into Brees' back after the quarterback delivered a pass, causing Harrison to draw a roughing the passer penalty."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/11/0 ... 79021.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/11/04/james-harrison-fined-2000_n_779021.html)

Look at the picture, James Harrison didnt even launch himself. Feet still on the ground at contact. And the crazy thing is, his helmet (head up), is actually off to the side of Brees.

Dee Dub
12-15-2011, 02:27 PM
This element of the game has changed. Bottom line.

Too much ambiguity. The whole "referee has to determine" factor is BS. A late hit on a QB is now a judgement call? Too much grey area there.

I don't like it.

Pretty much can't touch the QB. If you do, you are risking a penalty due to it's subjectiveness. This alone could determine the outcome of a game. Too much control for the league. Not one into conspiracys, but if I can read between the lines, then so can some of you.

The pass rush is pretty much dead.

Well it's always been a judgment call for a referee. The difference today is it is now a fine-able offense and could lead to suspension.

pick6
12-15-2011, 02:59 PM
Nice thread.

I just think that the implementation of the rule has begun to be so skewed so as to push the NFL the direction of WWF status. I say this because some quarterbacks can not be touched and it seems the officials are protecting them at the expense of league integrity. Conversely, some defenders who have a rep for borderline play are clearly being targeted by some officiating crews. Im not defending bad hits but both Suh and Harrison have been called for hits that other defenders would have been overlooked for. The human element of reputation seems to have crept into the NFL officiating profession, making it less professional, imo.

pittpete
12-15-2011, 06:43 PM
Just put flags on the QB and eliminate sacks from the stats. :HeadBanger

pick6
12-15-2011, 07:00 PM
Just put flags on the QB and eliminate sacks from the stats. :HeadBanger
Exactly.

Ghost
12-15-2011, 07:34 PM
There's stubborn and there's stupid and Harrison has crossed over to stupid b/c now the team has to pay the price and not have him on the field in a tough game.

He could have burried McCoy on that play without using his helmet. Could have easily buried his shoulder pads into his mid section. Maybe he gets flagged but he doesn't get suspended. He clearly led with the helmet and went high as McCoy was not bending down.

At this point he needs to understand: A. right or wrong the NFL has a hard on for his hits and he'll always be looked at differently and B. Stop leading with the head. It's really not that hard. He will never get the benefit of the doubt and if he doesn't understand this now he's a moron.

SteelAbility
12-16-2011, 12:15 AM
I believe this is Harrison's first helmet-to-helmet call/flag/fine this year. What I think happened was that the Steelers found themselves in a position where they could lose a gimme game in a race for 1st or 2nd seed. I think Harrision was simply trying to contact McCoy as soon as possible. The fastest path to contact is the one where your head points out and reduces the distance to contact.

I think Harrison was desperate for a stop and it all just processed super fast in his head. Also, McCoy was a runner shortly before he flipped it. Harrison had reason to believe it was "runner" situation. Again, it all processes very fast, especially given that Harrison and McCoy were running TOWARDs each other, meaning that the gap closes very rapidly.

Shawn
12-16-2011, 12:16 PM
Great thread Dubs, and I 100% agree.

feltdizz
12-16-2011, 02:35 PM
There's stubborn and there's stupid and Harrison has crossed over to stupid b/c now the team has to pay the price and not have him on the field in a tough game.

He could have burried McCoy on that play without using his helmet. Could have easily buried his shoulder pads into his mid section. Maybe he gets flagged but he doesn't get suspended. He clearly led with the helmet and went high as McCoy was not bending down.

At this point he needs to understand: A. right or wrong the NFL has a hard on for his hits and he'll always be looked at differently and B. Stop leading with the head. It's really not that hard. He will never get the benefit of the doubt and if he doesn't understand this now he's a moron.

he would still get fined and suspended if the hit was textbook. The only thing he could do is push him, hold him like a baby or not hit him at all. McCoy is a baby boy compared to Harrison.

Ghost
12-16-2011, 06:21 PM
There's stubborn and there's stupid and Harrison has crossed over to stupid b/c now the team has to pay the price and not have him on the field in a tough game.

He could have burried McCoy on that play without using his helmet. Could have easily buried his shoulder pads into his mid section. Maybe he gets flagged but he doesn't get suspended. He clearly led with the helmet and went high as McCoy was not bending down.

At this point he needs to understand: A. right or wrong the NFL has a hard on for his hits and he'll always be looked at differently and B. Stop leading with the head. It's really not that hard. He will never get the benefit of the doubt and if he doesn't understand this now he's a moron.

he would still get fined and suspended if the hit was textbook. The only thing he could do is push him, hold him like a baby or not hit him at all. McCoy is a baby boy compared to Harrison.

I'll politely disagree. The suspension was 100% because of helmet to helmet. He probably gets flagged because the refs are calling games as if it's two-hand touch but no suspension. Heck there were a lot of national folks saying it didn't deserve a suspension even with that hit because of how far CM had been running before the throw.

hawaiiansteel
12-18-2011, 02:27 PM
Updated: December 18, 2011

Helmet hits to be discussed again

Associated Press

EAST RUTHERFORD, N.J. -- The NFL is expected to look at expanding the ban on launching and helmet hits.

Atlanta Falcons president Rich McKay, the co-chairman of the league's competition committee, believes it will be a topic for his group during the offseason, and changes could be presented to the owners next spring.

"I think the launch will be discussed more and more and eventually we will see helmet hits modified in the open field," McKay said.

The competition committee recommends rules changes to the owners, who then vote on them at the annual March meetings. McKay's committee was influential in getting outlawed the technique of launching -- when a player leaves his feet and leads with his head -- against defenseless players.

McKay says the idea of potentially banning launching altogether was discussed last year.

"Coaches felt there were too many circumstances where players could be perceived as doing it and were not really," he said. "It is a big step, not something I expect membership gets comfortable with over a year's time."

Flagrant helmet hits have been a high-profile topic all season since the league banned launching in March. A 15-yard penalty is enforced for anyone who leaves both feet before contact to spring forward and upward into an opponent and delivers a blow to the helmet with any part of his helmet.

Such tackles also are subject to fines, ejections and suspensions.

McKay emphasized that Steelers linebacker James Harrison's hit on Browns quarterback Colt McCoy on Dec. 8 is not the catalyst for further discussions.

Harrison became the first player suspended for such a hit under the NFL's new guidelines, and will miss Pittsburgh's game at San Francisco on Monday night.

"I don't like the fact one play would drive the discussion more than a need to do it for a bigger reason: a lot of plays that are putting players at risk," McKay said. "Our game has taken some real steps in a safety direction and we see, culturally, some modifications. We need to continue in that direction."

McKay said game officials have told him they are seeing fewer hits with the target areas the head or neck, and more tacklers are leading with their shoulders.

He said that's significant because it's not only offensive players who are in danger when an illegal hit is made.

"When we are trying to deal with an issue like the launch, we are trying to protect the runner and the hitter," he said. "Some hits, a defensive player is leading with his head and not using his arms and really is exposing himself to injury as a flagrant foul is committed."

Defenseless players cannot be hit in the head or neck area with the helmet, facemask, forearm or shoulder. The definition of such players now includes those throwing a pass; attempting or completing a catch without having time to ward off or avoid contact; a runner whose forward progress has been stopped by a tackler; kickoff or punt returners while the ball is in the air; kickers or punters during a kick or a return; a quarterback during a change of possession; and a player who receives a blindside block from a blocker moving toward his own end zone.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/73654 ... elmet-hits (http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/7365426/nfl-expand-ban-launching-helmet-hits)

DukieBoy
12-18-2011, 03:29 PM
Updated: December 18, 2011

Helmet hits to be discussed again

Associated Press


Flagrant helmet hits have been a high-profile topic all season since the league banned launching in March. A 15-yard penalty is enforced for anyone who leaves both feet before contact to spring forward and upward into an opponent and delivers a blow to the helmet with any part of his helmet.

Such tackles also are subject to fines, ejections and suspensions.

Defenseless players cannot be hit in the head or neck area with the helmet, facemask, forearm or shoulder. The definition of such players now includes those throwing a pass; attempting or completing a catch without having time to ward off or avoid contact;

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/73654 ... elmet-hits (http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/7365426/nfl-expand-ban-launching-helmet-hits)

OK, but why didn't the rules and processes fully apply when Ray Lewis blindsided a defenseless Hines H2H ? And look at the H2H by the bungle DL on Kellen Clemens today (no penalty on a launched H2H). It's the consistent and fair application of the rules that I'd like to see improve. Not just these rules, but protection of all QB's which includes Ben, fair play on the pushoffs allowed to big receivers when DB's best not touch after 5 yards, and more rules.

RuthlessBurgher
12-18-2011, 04:54 PM
Updated: December 18, 2011

Helmet hits to be discussed again

Associated Press


Flagrant helmet hits have been a high-profile topic all season since the league banned launching in March. A 15-yard penalty is enforced for anyone who leaves both feet before contact to spring forward and upward into an opponent and delivers a blow to the helmet with any part of his helmet.

Such tackles also are subject to fines, ejections and suspensions.

Defenseless players cannot be hit in the head or neck area with the helmet, facemask, forearm or shoulder. The definition of such players now includes those throwing a pass; attempting or completing a catch without having time to ward off or avoid contact;

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/73654 ... elmet-hits (http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/7365426/nfl-expand-ban-launching-helmet-hits)

OK, but why didn't the rules and processes fully apply when Ray Lewis blindsided a defenseless Hines H2H ? And look at the H2H by the bungle DL on Kellen Clemens today (no penalty on a launched H2H). It's the consistent and fair application of the rules that I'd like to see improve. Not just these rules, but protection of all QB's which includes Ben, fair play on the pushoffs allowed to big receivers when DB's best not touch after 5 yards, and more rules.

The main reason for the inconsistency is the complexity of all these new rules. No one knows what is a legal tackle and is not a legal tackle anymore (even after the fact with the benefit of slo-mo replay, there is still debate about what is legal and what is not). Heck, nobody even knows what a freaking catch is anymore. Balls that are obvious catches to you, me, and Roger Goodell's grandmother are overturned by referees based on some obscure stipulation in the rulebook. The replays shouldn't be done by the overwhelmed referee...we need a "common-sense" official who can just look at the replay and answer basic obvious questions like "was that a catch?" without worrying about a rulebook that makes the U.S. tax code appear to be simplistic by comparison.

DukieBoy
12-18-2011, 04:57 PM
Updated: December 18, 2011

Helmet hits to be discussed again

Associated Press


Flagrant helmet hits have been a high-profile topic all season since the league banned launching in March. A 15-yard penalty is enforced for anyone who leaves both feet before contact to spring forward and upward into an opponent and delivers a blow to the helmet with any part of his helmet.

Such tackles also are subject to fines, ejections and suspensions.

Defenseless players cannot be hit in the head or neck area with the helmet, facemask, forearm or shoulder. The definition of such players now includes those throwing a pass; attempting or completing a catch without having time to ward off or avoid contact;

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/73654 ... elmet-hits (http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/7365426/nfl-expand-ban-launching-helmet-hits)

OK, but why didn't the rules and processes fully apply when Ray Lewis blindsided a defenseless Hines H2H ? And look at the H2H by the bungle DL on Kellen Clemens today (no penalty on a launched H2H). It's the consistent and fair application of the rules that I'd like to see improve. Not just these rules, but protection of all QB's which includes Ben, fair play on the pushoffs allowed to big receivers when DB's best not touch after 5 yards, and more rules.

The main reason for the inconsistency is the complexity of all these new rules. No one knows what is a legal tackle and is not a legal tackle anymore (even after the fact with the benefit of slo-mo replay, there is still debate about what is legal and what is not). Heck, nobody even knows what a freaking catch is anymore. Balls that are obvious catches to you, me, and Roger Goodell's grandmother are overturned by referees based on some obscure stipulation in the rulebook. The replays shouldn't be done by the overwhelmed referee...we need a "common-sense" official who can just look at the replay and answer basic obvious questions like "was that a catch?" without worrying about a rulebook that makes the U.S. tax code appear to be simplistic by comparison.

I beat that drum, too.

Look at how the NHL confirms goals. That system seems to work well.