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View Full Version : John Gruden says Rivers is the best QB in the AFC



SanAntonioSteelerFan
12-05-2011, 09:16 PM
On tonight's pre-game show.

:roll:

You can't make this stuff up, I swear.

:loser

RuthlessBurgher
12-05-2011, 09:17 PM
Rivers is probably a better coach than his actual coach, Norv Turner... :wink:

hawaiiansteel
12-05-2011, 09:17 PM
best coach or best QB?

SanAntonioSteelerFan
12-05-2011, 09:22 PM
Sorry, edited the title, it's "QB". Funny thing is, Ruth's post is STILL applicable.

Oh, and that's "QB" for "Quarterback", not that "Tee-hee" guy with the fluffy cat as an avatar that used to be on the board.

SidSmythe
12-05-2011, 09:27 PM
Sorry, edited the title, it's "QB". Funny thing is, Ruth's post is STILL applicable.

Oh, and that's "QB" for "Quarterback", not that "Tee-hee" guy with the fluffy cat as an avatar that used to be on the board.

What kind of QB would have a cat as their avatar

SanAntonioSteelerFan
12-05-2011, 09:49 PM
Sorry, edited the title, it's "QB". Funny thing is, Ruth's post is STILL applicable.

Oh, and that's "QB" for "Quarterback", not that "Tee-hee" guy with the fluffy cat as an avatar that used to be on the board.

What kind of QB would have a cat as their avatar

Whoops - Dude, I didn't mean you - so sorry!

I thought QB had a cat too ... that's who I was referring to ... honest injun (notice desperate attempt to pivot to another thread to escape the wrath of SS)!

:Cheers

SidSmythe
12-05-2011, 09:59 PM
HaHa, everyone accused m


Sorry, edited the title, it's "QB". Funny thing is, Ruth's post is STILL applicable.

Oh, and that's "QB" for "Quarterback", not that "Tee-hee" guy with the fluffy cat as an avatar that used to be on the board.

What kind of QB would have a cat as their avatar

Whoops - Dude, I didn't mean you - so sorry!

I thought QB had a cat too ... that's who I was referring to ... honest injun (notice desperate attempt to pivot to another thread to escape the wrath of SS)!

:Cheers

Everyone accused me of being QB
So I asked MeetJoe how to do an avatar and he helped me out. :D
I still think ShawnMedGuy was QB w/ MeetJoe as a distant 2nd

hawaiiansteel
12-05-2011, 10:04 PM
maybe Gruden is angling to be the next Chargers' coach and wants to be on good terms with Rivers in case he gets the job...

SanAntonioSteelerFan
12-05-2011, 10:04 PM
HaHa, everyone accused m


Sorry, edited the title, it's "QB". Funny thing is, Ruth's post is STILL applicable.

Oh, and that's "QB" for "Quarterback", not that "Tee-hee" guy with the fluffy cat as an avatar that used to be on the board.

What kind of QB would have a cat as their avatar

Whoops - Dude, I didn't mean you - so sorry!

I thought QB had a cat too ... that's who I was referring to ... honest injun (notice desperate attempt to pivot to another thread to escape the wrath of SS)!

:Cheers

Everyone accused me of being QB
So I asked MeetJoe how to do an avatar and he helped me out. :D
I still think ShawnMedGuy was QB w/ MeetJoe as a distant 2nd

Funny thing is, the mods must know, since they can figure out things like IP addresses, etc. But no-one is saying. Hmm ...

fezziwig
12-05-2011, 10:08 PM
maybe Gruden is angling to be the next Chargers' coach and wants to be on good terms with Rivers in case he gets the job...


I think you may have something there.

SanAntonioSteelerFan
12-05-2011, 10:49 PM
maybe Gruden is angling to be the next Chargers' coach and wants to be on good terms with Rivers in case he gets the job...


SLOBBERKNOCKER ALERT:

Gruden: "He (Rivers) stood in there like a grizzled riverboat gambler as the pocket came crashing in around him ..."

http://planetsmilies.net/vomit-smiley-9532.gif (http://planetsmilies.net)

RuthlessBurgher
12-05-2011, 11:20 PM
HaHa, everyone accused m


Sorry, edited the title, it's "QB". Funny thing is, Ruth's post is STILL applicable.

Oh, and that's "QB" for "Quarterback", not that "Tee-hee" guy with the fluffy cat as an avatar that used to be on the board.

What kind of QB would have a cat as their avatar

Whoops - Dude, I didn't mean you - so sorry!

I thought QB had a cat too ... that's who I was referring to ... honest injun (notice desperate attempt to pivot to another thread to escape the wrath of SS)!

:Cheers

Everyone accused me of being QB
So I asked MeetJoe how to do an avatar and he helped me out. :D
I still think ShawnMedGuy was QB w/ MeetJoe as a distant 2nd

Funny thing is, the mods must know, since they can figure out things like IP addresses, etc. But no-one is saying. Hmm ...

Yeah, maybe cos2k1 might be able to figure stuff like that out...but it's just a bunch of numbers to a schmoe like me. (full disclosure...shortly after becoming a mod and learning that when you ban a username you should ban the IP address as well...we used to get a buttload of spammers back then, and you could be banning a dozen or so of them on a daily basis...it's nowhere close to anything like that anymore...anyway, I tried banning some spammer's IP address and inadvertently banned my own IP address. Whoopsie. I had to wait until I went to work the next morning to un-ban my own home computer).

SanAntonioSteelerFan
12-05-2011, 11:31 PM
... I tried banning some spammer's IP address and inadvertently banned my own IP address. Whoopsie. I had to wait until I went to work the next morning to un-ban my own home computer.

Banning ... yourself??

http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2009/8/15/128948557582663822.jpg

RuthlessBurgher
12-05-2011, 11:44 PM
http://images2.fanpop.com/image/photos/12500000/Gif-of-Joker-Clapping-the-dark-knight-12559610-150-150.gif

SanAntonioSteelerFan
12-06-2011, 12:01 AM
http://images2.fanpop.com/image/photos/12500000/Gif-of-Joker-Clapping-the-dark-knight-12559610-150-150.gif

I can only hope to approach the image-searching skills of the Master!! :Bow

Flasteel
12-06-2011, 12:26 AM
In two weeks Gruden will say the same thing about Roethlisberger.

Then go on to tell the world how Alex Smith is on the verge of becoming an elite QB.

Speaking of QB, there is no doubt it was Shawn. :Cheers

BradshawsHairdresser
12-06-2011, 10:09 AM
In two weeks Gruden will say the same thing about Roethlisberger.

Then go on to tell the world how Alex Smith is on the verge of becoming an elite QB.

Speaking of QB, there is no doubt it was Shawn. :Cheers

Would you say that Shawn is "an elite QB"?

williar
12-06-2011, 01:11 PM
Rivers is a top 5 QB having an off year. SD was dumb for letting their best playmaker go, Darren Sproles. Rivers throws a nice deep ball.

RuthlessBurgher
12-06-2011, 01:27 PM
In two weeks Gruden will say the same thing about Roethlisberger.

Then go on to tell the world how Alex Smith is on the verge of becoming an elite QB.

Speaking of QB, there is no doubt it was Shawn. :Cheers

Would you say that Shawn is "an elite QB"?

Ask John Clayton, and he will list about a dozen or so elite level queerbaits...Shawn, MJG, UNCsteeler, Brady Quinn, the c*ckfaced Browns fan, etc.

ikestops85
12-06-2011, 01:30 PM
I really don't care much about what NFL analysts say when they rank players. To say Rivers is the best QB in a conference that includes Tom Brady is just ludicrous in my mind but everyone is entitled to their opinion.

It's just like when people talk about Ben. Most don't understand his style of play and they don't have a category which they can stick him in regard said style. He is very unique which is why some think he is great and some think he is average. If you watch him game after game you start to appreciate some of the little things he does. Has anybody in the media mentioned the blocks he has thrown the past couple of weeks? I don't think so but I know those are two plays that Peyton never would have made.

Sugar
12-06-2011, 01:51 PM
I really don't care much about what NFL analysts say when they rank players. To say Rivers is the best QB in a conference that includes Tom Brady is just ludicrous in my mind but everyone is entitled to their opinion.

It's just like when people talk about Ben. Most don't understand his style of play and they don't have a category which they can stick him in regard said style. He is very unique which is why some think he is great and some think he is average. If you watch him game after game you start to appreciate some of the little things he does. Has anybody in the media mentioned the blocks he has thrown the past couple of weeks? I don't think so but I know those are two plays that Peyton never would have made.

:Agree

Brady is possibly the very best QB in history and he resides in the AFC. Peyton Manning is also an AFC QB, though he has been injured this year. When both are healthy, Rivers is not now nor ever was as good as either of them. Aside from pure passers, Ben's ability to extend the play and find open guys or get tough yards on his own is something well beyond Mr. Rivers as well.

Dee Dub
12-07-2011, 01:07 PM
Rivers is a top 5 QB having an off year. SD was dumb for letting their best playmaker go, Darren Sproles. Rivers throws a nice deep ball.

Rivers is an elite QB, but not above Ben. And your thought process about Rivers loosing Sproles is a little flawed. Think about it. If Rivers success is based on a 3rd down specialist then that doesnt bode well for him being an elite QB.

Dee Dub
12-07-2011, 01:13 PM
Brady is possibly the very best QB in history and he resides in the AFC...........

Are you kidding me? He aint better than Terry Bradshaw. Not even close. Dont punish Terry for playing most of his career in a run first offense, in an era that didn't throw the ball nearly half as much as they do today.

Think about this, would Brady be elite if he had two 1,000 yard rushers in the same season of a 14 game season? Nope. He'd be throwin the rock about 15 times a game. And you can bet Brady would not have withstood the physical pounding a QB was subject to in Bradshaw's era.

snarky
12-07-2011, 01:23 PM
I think it's difficult to tease out a QBs performance from the play of those around him, the coaching, and (to some extent) the quality of his team's defense. However IMO, no QB in league history has been asked to do as much as Tom Brady and actually delivered.

In the latter half of the 70s, Bradshaw was damn good. But he wasn't burdened with as much of the offense as Brady has been in NE. So it's impossible to say how he would have done in a similar scheme. Having two 1,000 yard rushers to hand the ball to will bring the defense up and make it a bit easier for receivers to get open. So again, you can't really tease it all out.

And Rivers (for me) is easily behind Manning, Brady and Ben (possibly Flacco, even).

Oviedo
12-07-2011, 01:35 PM
I really don't care much about what NFL analysts say when they rank players. To say Rivers is the best QB in a conference that includes Tom Brady is just ludicrous in my mind but everyone is entitled to their opinion.

It's just like when people talk about Ben. Most don't understand his style of play and they don't have a category which they can stick him in regard said style. He is very unique which is why some think he is great and some think he is average. If you watch him game after game you start to appreciate some of the little things he does. Has anybody in the media mentioned the blocks he has thrown the past couple of weeks? I don't think so but I know those are two plays that Peyton never would have made.

:Agree

Brady is possibly the very best QB in history and he resides in the AFC. Peyton Manning is also an AFC QB, though he has been injured this year. When both are healthy, Rivers is not now nor ever was as good as either of them. Aside from pure passers, Ben's ability to extend the play and find open guys or get tough yards on his own is something well beyond Mr. Rivers as well.


:Agree :Agree Rivers can't hold a candle to Brady, Manning (when healthy) or Brees. IMO he isn't even as good as ben beyond the fact he gets "style points" because he is the type of throwing QB that analysts love but he totally lacks the intangibles required to be a winner.

It's analogous in baseball to having a great fastball pitcher who strikes out lots of folks but also gives up lots of homeruns and finishes slightly above .500 with an ERA around 3.50.

fezziwig
12-07-2011, 02:14 PM
I think Montana and Marino were better than Brady. Argue it if you like and your opinion is just as valid as anyones but, as long as I consider the fact that cheating was going on it skews his success to me. Again, that's just me and my freedom of speech.

Mel Blount's G
12-07-2011, 03:35 PM
There may be a few better "pure quarterbacks" than Ben but Ben is a better FOOTBALL PLAYER than ANY of those other QB's and it ain't even close.

Just as there are better "pure receivers" then Hines, not a one of them is half the FOOTBALL PLAYER that he is.

And give me a line-up of reaL FOOTBALL PLAYERS and I will whip your prima donnas any day.

STEELER FOOTBALL baby. A breed apart (cue that old Merril Lynch commercial)
:Steel :tt1 :Steel :tt1 :Steel :tt1 :Steel :tt1 :Steel :tt1 :Steel :tt1 :Steel

snarky
12-07-2011, 06:25 PM
I think Montana and Marino were better than Brady. Argue it if you like and your opinion is just as valid as anyones but, as long as I consider the fact that cheating was going on it skews his success to me. Again, that's just me and my freedom of speech.

Yeah, I think you have a decent point for Montana. Though I sill give the nod to Brady. Marino, on the other hand. I don't know. He had a handful of great years but was more or less a stats machine. Just looking at contemporaries, I would put him behind both Elway and Montana.

RuthlessBurgher
12-07-2011, 06:45 PM
I think Montana and Marino were better than Brady. Argue it if you like and your opinion is just as valid as anyones but, as long as I consider the fact that cheating was going on it skews his success to me. Again, that's just me and my freedom of speech.

Yeah, I think you have a decent point for Montana. Though I sill give the nod to Brady. Marino, on the other hand. I don't know. He had a handful of great years but was more or less a stats machine. Just looking at contemporaries, I would put him behind both Elway and Montana.

When making cross-generational comparisons, I tend to compare Brady to Montana, Peyton to Marino, and Ben to Elway.

Dee Dub
12-07-2011, 06:52 PM
I think it's difficult to tease out a QBs performance from the play of those around him, the coaching, and (to some extent) the quality of his team's defense. However IMO, no QB in league history has been asked to do as much as Tom Brady and actually delivered.

In the latter half of the 70s, Bradshaw was damn good. But he wasn't burdened with as much of the offense as Brady has been in NE. So it's impossible to say how he would have done in a similar scheme. Having two 1,000 yard rushers to hand the ball to will bring the defense up and make it a bit easier for receivers to get open. So again, you can't really tease it all out.

And Rivers (for me) is easily behind Manning, Brady and Ben (possibly Flacco, even).

snarky, having two thousand yard rushers means you run the ball about 40-45 per game. It doesn't matter what a secondary does to make throwing the ball easier. You still aren't throwing the ball all that much. May 15 times a game.

And considering Bradshaw called his own plays in his latter years, I think he could have handled the burden of having more of the offense on his shoulders. Think about it.

Bradshaw could have excelled in this era. Brady would have been run of the mill in Bradshaw's era.

Sugar
12-07-2011, 07:41 PM
It could be argued that you had to run the ball that much because your franchise QB wasn't good enough (though I don't think that's the case).

While Bradshaw was a very good QB, you can't convince me that he was in any way the equal or better than Tom Brady. Brady has been successful long enough with different casts of charachters that we can see he's not some fluke.

Would I want him for this team, with this O-line, nope. That doesn't mean he's not the best around all things considered. I could understand arguments about Montana, but he's a) in the past, and b) in the NFC.

I still contend that a healthy Peyton Manning is considerably better than Rivers as well.

Dee Dub
12-07-2011, 07:52 PM
It could be argued that you had to run the ball that much because your franchise QB wasn't good enough (though I don't think that's the case).

While Bradshaw was a very good QB, you can't convince me that he was in any way the equal or better than Tom Brady. Brady has been successful long enough with different casts of charachters that we can see he's not some fluke.

Would I want him for this team, with this O-line, nope. That doesn't mean he's not the best around all things considered. I could understand arguments about Montana, but he's a) in the past, and b) in the NFC.

I still contend that a healthy Peyton Manning is considerably better than Rivers as well.

Sugar, Brady is what he is because of the offense he runs. He is the epitome of a system quarterback. Answer me this, what would Brady's stats have been playing in 1976? Half of what they are today. And if they are half of what they are today what would that make him? Average to descent at best.

And let's not forget, he would have never have survived the brutality and physicality of the game back then. No way.

Chadman
12-08-2011, 02:41 AM
Looking between the lines, Chadman would say Gruden is actually saying "I'm available to be HC if Norv gets the boot...by the way, Phil Rivers could be the best QB in the NFL...why aren't you in the SB already? Hint, hint, nudge, nudge.."

Because if he is just saying Rivers is the best in the AFC because he actually thinks that- well, guess that explains why he isn't wearing the coaches headset anymore.

In related news, Chadman hears Bill Cowher thinks the Eagles have the nicest uniforms in the NFL. And he can't understand how Andy Reid can't get such a nice looking uniformed team into the playoffs. Hint, hint...

:stirpot

Sugar
12-08-2011, 06:52 AM
Sugar, Brady is what he is because of the offense he runs. He is the epitome of a system quarterback. Answer me this, what would Brady's stats have been playing in 1976? Half of what they are today. And if they are half of what they are today what would that make him? Average to descent at best.

And let's not forget, he would have never have survived the brutality and physicality of the game back then. No way.

See, I disagree with your premise. If Brady had played in the 70's, he would have been the best at that time as well.

snarky
12-08-2011, 11:04 AM
I think whenever you talk about this guy would have been better in this era, you are getting into the realm of pure conjecture.

Bradshaw had one of the best defenses in the history of the game, two thousand yard rushers running the ball and was throwing to two HoF receivers during the prime of his career. For some reason, however, his winning percentage is far below Brady's (and look at some of the receivers Brady has had to work with).

So you can argue that it is the system or the era or whatever. But I don't think you could come up with anything other than straight up speculation to argue that Bradshaw is better than Brady. In terms of actual production on the field, it's not even close.

And last I remember, offenses in that era ran to set up the pass, so having two 1,000 yard rushers behind you should improve your passing efficiency (even though it will decrease overall stat accumulation). Compare their TD/INT ratios and tell me that Bradshaw was more efficient with the ball (and remember, Brady has been in a pass-first system - so the D knew what was coming).

Dee Dub
12-08-2011, 01:32 PM
Here is what I know from my own eyes having seen both Bradshaw and Brady. No way is Brady a better QB than Bradshaw. I am not swayed by this era's computer game numbers on offense. Physically Bradshaw had it all. He was the number one overall pick in 1970 for a reason. He had a cannon of an arm. Could throw a 50 yard head high strike like it was nothing. He had great touch. He could throw the deep ball with the best of them. When he was young and first came in the league he could run as could as any QB at that time (if he needed too). He was strong. And despite what some like to say about him, he was smart. He was smart enough to call his own plays. Smart enough to read defenses with the best of them. And smart enough to do this and win Championships. And he played in an era where some of the greatest teams of all time played against his Steelers. It wasn't like today where there is usually only one great team each year. In the 70's there were dynasties. The Oakland Raiders, the Miami Dolphins, and the Dallas Cowboys. And Terry Bradshaw wasnt helped out by a league that has made it easy for wide receivers and their ability to get open. The game was far more physical when he played. Try going across the middle against George Atkinson. And when the game was on it's biggest stage? Terry was at his best. There's no question the Steeler defense of that era was the greatest of all time, but in Super Bowl XIII the Cowboys offense had no problem moving the ball versus that great defense. Terry had to put points on the board for them to win that one. And that could also be said of Super Bowl XIV versus the Rams. Trailing 19-17 going in to the 4th quarter it wasn't the defense that won that game for the Steelers. It was the arm of Terry Bradshaw.

Since the Patriots have changed/evolved into this wide open offense over the past 6 years, have you noticed they haven't won a Super Bowl? But they did when Brady was more of a game manager than he was a chuck it 40-50 times a game QB. Brady's QB rating in years the Patriots won Super Bowls? 92.6, 85.9, and 86.5. His TD's those years? 28, 23, and 18. Yes he has been lighting it up (stat wise), 4 out of the past 5 years (injured in 2008), but they haven't won jack as a result of it.

Had Franco Harris and Rocky Bleier been able to play in the AFCC game in 1976 versus the Raiders (both out with injuries), Bradshaw would be the only QB in the history of the game with 5 Super Bowl wins. That was truly the greatest Steeler team ever. 5 shut outs on defense.

snarky
12-08-2011, 04:23 PM
So Brady was just a game manager when the Pats offense was more convential, but Bradshaw was being held back/punished because he was in a run-first offense. That would make sense if Bradshaw was the more efficient passer of the two. But he wasn't.

And don't you sort of prove my point with your last paragraph? With the running attack, the Steelers win that game and without it, they get blown out.

Dee Dub
12-08-2011, 05:26 PM
So Brady was just a game manager when the Pats offense was more convential, but Bradshaw was being held back/punished because he was in a run-first offense. That would make sense if Bradshaw was the more efficient passer of the two. But he wasn't.

snarky, completing passes in Bradshaw's days was far more difficult to do than it is today. Receivers could get mugged all the way dpown the field at one time. If you are going to look at numbers from these eras then you are never going be able to see the truth.



And don't you sort of prove my point with your last paragraph? With the running attack, the Steelers win that game and without it, they get blown out.

Bradshaw nor any other QB in the history of the game could win all the time by just his arm. But when 2 thirds of a teams offense is out of an AFCC game there isnt a QB who ever played the game who could have overcome that. And had Franco and Rocky been able to play or even just one of them in that game, Bradshaw easily has 5 Super Bowl rings. And quite frankly we proqably never ever have this debate about who the greatest QB of all time is.

But you go ahead and have Brady and all his stats in a pass happy, pass easy league. I say Bradshaw was better.

snarky
12-08-2011, 06:13 PM
Fran Tarkenton played in the same era and put up numbers that compare much more favorably to Brady's than do Bradshaw's in terms of efficiency. So my point stands, you can't call Brady a game manager and at the same time claim Bradshaw was being held back/punished when Bradshaw's passing efficiency was well below Brady's.

And it's not that I'm completely tone-deaf to your argument. I get that it was more difficult back then to put up the sort of numbers that Brady does today. But Bradshaw isn't even all that close (either in terms of raw numbers or efficiency) unless you are going to ignore his production prior to 1075.

That said, I don't think you can automatically say that no QB from today's era could be better than the best of that era. To my mind, that would be a logical fallacy.

But hey, if you want to agree to disagree, that's cool. I said earlier (or at least I meant to) that when you are comparing across generations it really comes down to opinions more than anything else.

fezziwig
12-08-2011, 07:15 PM
For toughness Bradshaw and Ben have it all over Brady.

The new football favors guys of this era with allowing the receivers with more freedom and the defense having their hands tied.

Brady would have folded like a house of cards had he played in Bradshaws day.

Ben would be the same great qb be in any era.

As for our running game allowed Terry to win his Super Bowls that's not all true. Dallas was crushing our run game in the Super Bowl so terry had to beat them through the air.

Didn't Terry have a couple of SB MVP's ? Didn't terry set passing records in the SB when, that era relied more on running ?

Brady is a passing machine but the NFL rules now have allowed for that. Brady and his dink and dunk passes would never survive in the 70's.

I would still take Bradshaw and Ben over Brady and Elway too.

Dee Dub
12-08-2011, 08:59 PM
For toughness Bradshaw and Ben have it all over Brady.

The new football favors guys of this era with allowing the receivers with more freedom and the defense having their hands tied.

Brady would have folded like a house of cards had he played in Bradshaws day.

Ben would be the same great qb be in any era.

As for our running game allowed Terry to win his Super Bowls that's not all true. Dallas was crushing our run game in the Super Bowl so terry had to beat them through the air.

Didn't Terry have a couple of SB MVP's ? Didn't terry set passing records in the SB when, that era relied more on running ?

Brady is a passing machine but the NFL rules now have allowed for that. Brady and his dink and dunk passes would never survive in the 70's.

I would still take Bradshaw and Ben over Brady and Elway too.

Now that's what I'm talkin about!! fezziwig weighing in heavy! :Clap

You know Terry wasnt throwin the ball all that much when Ben passes his completion record in the middle of his 8th season. But when Terry needed to and when the game was at it's biggest never has there been one greater than the Blonde Bomber!

fezziwig
12-08-2011, 09:30 PM
Thanks for the props. You got that right about Ben breaking his record in 8 seasons. There will be many records broken since they handcuffed the defense and allow the offense so much freedom. A lot of these record breakers of the new era also have 16 games seasons to pad their stats.

Even the physical conditioning has allowed these players to evolve. The medicines, treatments, surgeries have come along way since the days of qb's having Turkey Jones smashing their heads into the ground like a fence post.

Then, you have guys conditioning all season long when some of these guys had off season jobs back in the day.

It's just not apple to oranges and I give the nod to the real football players like Ben, Terry, Elway.

Jack Lambert would have made Brady pee his pants 2nd play of the game.