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hawaiiansteel
12-04-2011, 02:28 AM
On the Steelers: Tackle: From not enough to too many

Sunday, December 04, 2011
By Ed Bouchette, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

http://steelerstoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/willie-colon.jpg

The mess that was the Steelers offensive line to start the season suddenly looks as if it has a good foothold on the future. Now, however, they will have to make a tough decision at tackle after the season.

Willie Colon, who signed a five-year, $29 million contract this year, will return from the triceps injury that knocked him out for the season in the opening game in Baltimore. Then what do they do?

One solution: Return Colon to his job as the starting right tackle and move Marcus Gilbert to left tackle, the spot which they had in mind for him when they drafted him on the second round this year. Left tackle Max Starks becomes a free agent and he's liable to get some decent offers elsewhere.

Or should the Steelers try to keep Starks and let the three compete for two jobs? Colon always can play guard but suddenly the Steelers are more than happy with their two starting guards, Doug Legursky on the left and Ramon Foster on the right. Chris Kemoeatu, their highest-paid active lineman (5 years, $20 million) who lost his four-year starting job at left guard to Legursky last week, would now appear to have an uncertain future here.

It's a better dilemma than the one they faced early this season, especially after Colon's injury.

Gilbert has helped solidify the position as much as the return of Starks, who was cut before training camp and re-signed Oct. 5.

"We knew he had the talent and ... so far he's managed to show us he's more than ready to play each Sunday," offensive coordinator Bruce Arians said. "He can play left tackle, right tackle, right guard. This kid is a player. If he keeps his head on straight and continues to improve, the sky's the limit for him athletically."

Veteran Flozell Adams bailed them out in 2010 at right tackle when he signed to replace Colon, who also missed that season with a torn Achilles. Adams was noted for his run-blocking at right tackle. And Gilbert?

"He's actually a better run-blocker than Flo right now," Arians said. "Flo did an unbelievable job of what he had left in his body last year. His mass covered people up more than move them, but he covered them up pretty good.

"Marcus is getting movement, and he and Ramon have become a pretty good solid side as far as run-blocking. That right side has been double-teaming people pretty good. And when we run behind Max and Chris or Max and Doug, it hasn't been bad either. But all of it just needs to get a little bit better for December and January."

Draft doesn't measure everything

Legursky and Foster, the current starting guard duo, have succeeded where many draft picks could not. Neither was drafted. Legursky, who played at Marshall, signed after the draft in 2008. Foster, who played at Tennessee, signed after the draft in 2009.

So how do undrafted players wind up making it while a third-round pick such as 2009's Kraig Urbik gets released?

"The draft is so much about measurables and less about tape," Arians said. "... Kevin [Colbert] and his entire group put a lot of stock on how you play football and not how you measure.

"These guys are good football players at really good programs. Doug started 44 games at Marshall, Ramon started as a swing tackle on both sides so he had real position flexibility.

"The main ingredient for those kinds of guys is they are tough and they are smart. That will overcome whatever physical limitations they have."

Legursky stands only 6 feet 1, although he weighs 323 pounds. His height is what kept him from being drafted, Arians said.

"He's short -- not small, just short. If he were four inches taller he'd be in the Pro Bowl," Arians said. "I think he would get his due if his stature were different, but it doesn't affect how he plays football and as a football player he's one of the best we have."

Legursky's versatility has both helped and hindered him. The Steelers love their linemen to be able to play a few positions. But now that he's starting at left guard, it might benefit him if he could stay there. But early in the second quarter Sunday in Kansas City, he had to switch to center when Maurkice Pouncey took ill. Even though Legursky will start at left guard today, he practiced at center Wednesday and Thursday this week until Pouncey returned.

"It does affect you," Arians said. "It affects his preparation. But he's a smart enough player and the techniques are similar enough that he'll be more than ready."

Was that ... ? Yes, it was

It was an atypical week for quarterback Charlie Batch in practice Thursday. He actually took some snaps with the first team offense after starter Ben Roethlisberger hit his right hand on a helmet and sat out the final offensive session.

Chances are, though, he'll see his usual action today -- none.

Batch has taken two snaps in a game this season and handed off twice, in a 24-0 victory against Seattle in the second game.

Roethlisberger rarely misses time because of injuries and he rarely leaves games for any other reason, which has left Batch as busy as the Maytag repairman.

In 2010, he played through the first four games because of Roethlisberger's suspension -- starting the third and fourth -- and never played another snap. In 2009, he played in one game and threw two passes. He missed the 2008 season with an injury.

The onetime franchise quarterback of the Detroit Lions has become accustomed to doing nothing on game days, running the scout team on weekdays and being prepared to possibly help salvage a season at a moment's notice as he did in 2005 when he started and won two games for the injured Roethlisberger to keep their Super Bowl season going.

"You just have to use that experience as a starter to know how to prepare as a starter," said Batch, Detroit's starter from his rookie season in 1998 through an injury that ended his 2001 season in the 11th game. "The only difference is you don't get the physical reps. But when you have to play, regardless of the circumstances, nobody cares if you had practice time or not. You'd better complete the daggone pass.

"That's how it is, the nature of it. You would love a full week to prepare if you're going to play. But there are times you may get the ball in the fourth quarter and it's third-and-12 and you have to go out and play."

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/11338/11 ... z1fXbOErTn (http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/11338/1194247-66-0.stm#ixzz1fXbOErTn)

Oviedo
12-04-2011, 10:06 AM
Colon is already signed so there is no issue of resign or not. The issue is keep or not keep.

IMO they tell him go play Guard or go away. Because of the cap hit and dead money likely incurred because of his signing bonus it only makes sense to keep him around one more year to see if he can play Guard.

WindyCitySteel
12-04-2011, 10:38 AM
Whatever they do, they'd better not count on him being healthy and be stuck holding the bag again next fall.

steelblood
12-04-2011, 12:04 PM
resigning Starks would be great. But, they won't have much money to do it.

NJ-STEELER
12-04-2011, 12:24 PM
sign max to a reasonable contract. dont forget the rest of the league didnt sign him either coming off the neck i njury, so he's a risk

keep marcus at RT. he looks like he can become one of the better RTs in the league. how would he look on the left side??

have colon compete for OG and back up OT


i would look for a LT replacement to grrom in the draft, even in the 1st round

pittpete
12-04-2011, 12:33 PM
As long as Kemo goes, Im good with whatever they decide....
If Colon can play guard, keep him and let him compete with everyone.
If he shows he cant play guard, cut him.

D Rock
12-04-2011, 12:34 PM
If Starks can be signed to a decent contract, I think the only real option is to have Max at LT, Gilbert at RT, and move Colon to G.


If Max can't be resigned then we are still okay with Gilbert at LT and Colon at RT, but the offensive line as a whole is no where near as solid, both with starters and depth.


Keeping all three around has the team covered in case of an injury to any of them. If an early rookie guard is drafted and they let Kemo walk, then this could leave the first and second team lines looking something like this:


Starks --- Legursky --- Pouncey --- Colon --- Gilbert
Gilbert --- Rookie --- Legurksy --- Foster --- Colon

Scott and Meredith filling in in the hopefully unavoidable case in which they are needed.


This would at least not give me nightmares. And if the rookie guard can turn in to a good player, then this is a very solid line.

Steel Life
12-04-2011, 09:29 PM
Colon when healthy is one of the better linemen on the team, whereas Kemo has clearly slipped. If Colon can compete for the RG spot, I'm all for it as neither Foster or Legs are the long-term answer. That still doesn't dissuade me from pushing for DeCastro in the draft.

papillon
12-04-2011, 10:23 PM
What has anyone seen that leads you to believe that Colon can be a guard? The Steelers have said Colon isn't playing guard. To my knowledge he's never played guard. I doubt he plays guard for the Steelers or even considers the move.

Pappy

Starlifter
12-04-2011, 10:42 PM
I think in the shuffle - kemo is the odd man out. the real crystal ball is deciding whether colon stays healthy in the next few years.

steelz09
12-04-2011, 11:21 PM
take a pay cut and move to guard or let him go.

Colon is no better than what Gilbert is right now.

7 UP
12-04-2011, 11:32 PM
Colon will never play guard. The Steelers have said on several different occasions that Colon can not play guard. To be honest the guy cant play tackle either. I have no idea why he was resigned. Hes a false start, holding machine with poor footwork.

TallyStiller
12-05-2011, 12:06 AM
Many considered Colon a viable option to move to guard out of college because they felt his arms were too short for tackle... but the Steelers have never shown the first indication of agreeing.

As to who they keep, one would assume that taking Colon's entire signing bonus as a cap hit upon his release would preclude their letting him go for at least two more years, much as it kept Kemo on the roster safely this season.

BradshawsHairdresser
12-05-2011, 12:09 AM
Colon will never play guard. The Steelers have said on several different occasions that Colon can not play guard. To be honest the guy cant play tackle either. I have no idea why he was resigned. Hes a false start, holding machine with poor footwork.

I never could see why anyone thought Colon was so great. Gilbert is already > Colon, IMO, and will get better. Unless someone gets hurt before next season, I'd cut Colon loose and try to re-sign Starks.

hawaiiansteel
12-05-2011, 01:30 AM
RT Gilbert Draws Praise from Steelers' Staff

By Jim Wexell
SteelCityInsider.net
Posted Dec 1, 2011

http://media.scout.com/Media/Image/100/1007788.jpg

PITTSBURGH – Steelers rookie right tackle Marcus Gilbert drew plenty of praise from offensive coordinator Bruce Arians for his performance last Sunday night against Kansas City’s fearsome pass-rusher, Tamba Hali.

Hali went up against Gilbert nine times and was blocked all nine times. Well, maybe 8½ times, according to Arians, who would like to have seen Gilbert finish Hali on the play Hali recovered and forced Mewelde Moore’s fumble at the goal line.

“He did a real nice job, other than that one play,” Arians said of Gilbert. “He needed to finish him a little bit more because the guy’s got an unbelievable motor and he’s a heckuva player.”

When the Steelers drafted Gilbert out of Florida last April, they dubbed him their left tackle of the future. Yet all nine of Gilbert’s starts have been at right tackle where he seems to have found a home.

“He could play left tackle, right tackle, right guard,” Arians said. “This kid’s a player. If he keeps his head on straight and continues to improve, the sky’s the limit for him athletically.

“We knew he had the talent. The talent and the want-to, the desire, don’t always go together, and so far he just manages to show us that he’s more than ready to play every Sunday and he’s willing to put the time in to prepare.”

Is Gilbert’s run-blocking up to the same level as that of Flozell Adams from last season?

“He’s actually a better run-blocker than Flo right now,” Arians said. “Flo did an unbelievable job with what he had left in his body last year. His mass covered people up more than moved them, but he covered them up pretty good. Marcus is getting movement. He and Ramon [Foster] have become a pretty good, solid side as far as run-blocking. If we get a little bit better job on our backside cutoffs and stuff, I think that average will go up a little bit.”

The Steelers average 4.2 yards per rush. Last season they averaged 4.1.

http://pit.scout.com/2/1134762.html

phillyesq
12-05-2011, 11:00 AM
Deciding between Max and Colon is going to be difficult next year. In a vacuum, of the two, I'd prefer Starks to a guy who played just one game in two years.

However, the Steelers are going to have some cap issues that they will have to address. I think that Colon got a pretty sizeable bonus (can't recall offhand) and cutting him will result in a cap hit. Starks, on the other hand, will be a UFA. Nobody signed Starks this year, but after the way he has stabilized the line, I'd think he'll get some offers.

This offseason will be a real challenge for Kahn and Colbert trying to manage the cap and put together a solid team.

steeler_fan_in_t.o.
12-05-2011, 11:31 AM
Colon signed a 5 year - $29M contract with a $6M SB. To cut him next year his cap hit will still be $4.8M which makes it that much less that you can give to Starks.

Steelers do not sign big time long term contracts and then cut the player the following year. That is a Washington Redskins move.

fezziwig
12-05-2011, 12:24 PM
This is no surprise coming from me, " I never thought Colon was worth the paper his check is printed upon. "
Cut the guy and if he wants to compete for a guard position let him. Don't know if that is possible with his current contract or not but that would be the best I would allow for him.
My real opinion would be let Colon go and never look back.
Sign Starks if they can or possibly we can find someone with a good resume to take Starks place also. I'm tired of the castoffs we get or try to plug in so, if they can't find a proven tackle to take Starks place then, they might as well keep starks.

The other trouble with Colon that I forgot to mention, once guys start getting injured it's usually more of the same. Get rid of Colon, Farrior, Arron Smith and start the youth movement.

focosteeler
12-05-2011, 01:13 PM
I say let him compete for a spot, guard, tackle whatever. If he can make the line up as a starter good, if he is the backup guy for the G or T during the game keep him. if not, try to trade him. gotta try and get something out of him

steelz09
12-05-2011, 02:33 PM
Colon will never play guard. The Steelers have said on several different occasions that Colon can not play guard. To be honest the guy cant play tackle either. I have no idea why he was resigned. Hes a false start, holding machine with poor footwork.

I never could see why anyone thought Colon was so great. Gilbert is already > Colon, IMO, and will get better. Unless someone gets hurt before next season, I'd cut Colon loose and try to re-sign Starks.

I completely agree. Colon was never that good.

I think Starks is more valuable. We all saw the results of not having Starks playing LT. What were the results of not having Colon? Fozell > Colon. Gilbert > Colon. 2 years without Colon equals two years of better RT play. I can't say the same for Starks replacements.

phillyesq
12-05-2011, 03:02 PM
Colon will never play guard. The Steelers have said on several different occasions that Colon can not play guard. To be honest the guy cant play tackle either. I have no idea why he was resigned. Hes a false start, holding machine with poor footwork.

I never could see why anyone thought Colon was so great. Gilbert is already > Colon, IMO, and will get better. Unless someone gets hurt before next season, I'd cut Colon loose and try to re-sign Starks.

I completely agree. Colon was never that good.

I think Starks is more valuable. We all saw the results of not having Starks playing LT. What were the results of not having Colon? Fozell > Colon. Gilbert > Colon. 2 years without Colon equals two years of better RT play. I can't say the same for Starks replacements.

There is one small change to the equation next year if you consider Gilbert at LT.

The choice will likely be:

Gilbert LT, Colon RT
or
Starks LT, Gilbert RT

steelz09
12-05-2011, 04:48 PM
I'd choose Starts @ LT and Gilbert @ RT

The only decision would be is to have Colon at LG. If not, then draft a G early.

You could have:

Starks @ LT - Proven
Legursky, Colon, Rookie, Foster @ LG - I like these options
Pouncey @ C - Proven
Legursky, Colon, Rookie, Foster @ RG - I like these options
Gilbert @ RT - A rookie that's getting better and has a lot of promise.

To me, I like these options. The only question is at guard. Kemo should be cut and maybe Colon. Foster has been ok and Legursky is adequate as well. Foster is probably better but Legursky is a valuable back-up at center and can pull.

If the Steelers plan to cut Kemo and Colon (or trade him), we'll still be ok especially if we draft a guard early in the draft.... a guard that can pull. I would probably add a tackle as well... either via draft or a vet back-up.

NJ-STEELER
12-05-2011, 07:30 PM
Colon signed a 5 year - $29M contract with a $6M SB. To cut him next year his cap hit will still be $4.8M which makes it that much less that you can give to Starks.

Steelers do not sign big time long term contracts and then cut the player the following year. That is a Washington Redskins move.

wouldnt they have an injury settlement thing with that contract. if he gets hurt for the season again, i would bet the FO has an out

JUST-PLAIN-NASTY
12-06-2011, 09:21 AM
Wow...Problems with too many OT...Who would have thought!

Kemo is out after this year. Colon will be here long term unless his injuries have slowed him down. They expect full recovery. Colon was playing his best football before his injury this year. Starks is having a very solid year but don't expect a big contract in his direction. He wil sign a 2-3 year deal at a bargain for the Steelers. So where does Gilbert fit? Well...Many options. The Colon to G theory could have possibilities. However, if Colon is healthy I expect him to stay at RT. A better theory may be to move Gilbert to LG if he truely is slated to be the LT of the future. A year on the left side will be helpful in the transition. In that scenario, Pouncey, Colon, Gilbert, & Starks are cleary the top 4 out of 5 OL and they are all on the field. I am not one who likes messing with chemistry on the OL by moving people around...But I am one who wants the best 5 on the field. No matter how you look at it, there will have to be some moving if Colon & Starks are in the plans. Finally...A good problem on the OL. :tt1

BradshawsHairdresser
12-06-2011, 10:02 AM
They expect full recovery.

That's what they said after his injury last season. Lots of $$ for a player who isn't on the field.


Colon was playing his best football before his injury this year.
???
Colon hardly played this year--his injury happened so early on, I can barely remember that he was around.


Starks is having a very solid year but don't expect a big contract in his direction. He wil sign a 2-3 year deal at a bargain for the Steelers.

I hope so. After all, the Steelers paid him extremely well for a couple of years in the past, so it's not like he hasn't made money off them.


So where does Gilbert fit? Well...Many options. The Colon to G theory could have possibilities. However, if Colon is healthy I expect him to stay at RT. A better theory may be to move Gilbert to LG if he truely is slated to be the LT of the future. A year on the left side will be helpful in the transition. In that scenario, Pouncey, Colon, Gilbert, & Starks are cleary the top 4 out of 5 OL and they are all on the field. I am not one who likes messing with chemistry on the OL by moving people around...But I am one who wants the best 5 on the field. No matter how you look at it, there will have to be some moving if Colon & Starks are in the plans. Finally...A good problem on the OL. :tt1

It is better to have too many good OL than not enough; you're right about that. However, I think Gilbert has already surpassed Colon at right tackle. Despite all the talk of Colon moving to G, I've seen little indication that this is a move the Steelers believe would work well. I understand there will be a big cap hit to release Colon, which sucks. I didn't understand why they were so anxious to sign false-start Willie to a big contract this past offseason...I have to wonder a little bit about this team's ability to evaluate OL talent. At least it appears they made a good decision in drafting Gilbert.

WindyCitySteel
12-06-2011, 10:41 AM
Colon was playing his best football before his injury this year.
???
Colon hardly played this year--his injury happened so early on, I can barely remember that he was around.

He had a holding call and a false start in Baltimore before getting hurt.

Shoe
12-06-2011, 12:33 PM
Kemo is out after this year. Colon will be here long term unless his injuries have slowed him down. They expect full recovery. Colon was playing his best football before his injury this year.

"Colon was playing his best football..."? How can you say that, when he went down so early and has basically been invisible to us for the past two years? Logic says that his "best football" (which was pre- his injuries, pre- his signing his big contract), his best football is behind him. That being said, he may still have some value, especially if he can play Guard and stay healthy... I think that's the key. Whether he can stay healthy or not.

As to Arians comments about Gilbert, of course he knows way more about the player than we do. But you have to realize that the coach is going to talk his guy up, and give him confidence, etc. I frankly haven't been sold on him yet. I'm hopeful though.

And lastly, I want to publicly commend Max Starks. I've always been hard on the guy, but there is no doubt that he's done a solid solid job. And he's only bound to be more solid, as the weather temperature goes down. The cold weather lends itself to the big plodding guys, rather than the fleet, agile guys.

JUST-PLAIN-NASTY
12-06-2011, 12:40 PM
That's what they said after his injury last season. Lots of $$ for a player who isn't on the field.

Colon hardly played this year--his injury happened so early on, I can barely remember that he was around.

I hope so. After all, the Steelers paid him extremely well for a couple of years in the past, so it's not like he hasn't made money off them.

It is better to have too many good OL than not enough; you're right about that. However, I think Gilbert has already surpassed Colon at right tackle. Despite all the talk of Colon moving to G, I've seen little indication that this is a move the Steelers believe would work well. I understand there will be a big cap hit to release Colon, which sucks. I didn't understand why they were so anxious to sign false-start Willie to a big contract this past offseason...I have to wonder a little bit about this team's ability to evaluate OL talent. At least it appears they made a good decision in drafting Gilbert.

Can't predict the injuries. Colon was a durable OL for a full 4 years. That injury last year was a terrible freak injury. Since his injury this year was not associated with that one it is a run of bad luck. The dollars spent isn't anything that can be frowned on. It happens all over the league to every team. Injuries happen...It is a violent sport...Contracts are always a risk. That's why players don't like playing on tags & tenders and teams don't like guranteed money.

He played his best ball in the preseason. I still remember Tunch & Wolf talking about his nasty streaks and how he looked like he was taking the injury out on anyone lined up over him. He was finishing in the Baltimore game.

I don't think what Starks made in the past has any impact on what he will make if he signs a new deal. Starks wants to be here...He knows he won't get a deal much better anywhere else. He also knows the Steelers won't throw big dollars at him, especially in guranteed & bonus, because of the reason they released him in the first place. That is on him. Starks also knows that Gilbert is on the roster so if he wants to stay...He will have to stay at the Steleers price.

Gilbert is playing very good. He isn't playing at the same level of Colon. I think Gilbert's ceiling is far higher than Colon because I too believe he can play LT with some experience & coaching.

Oviedo
12-06-2011, 12:45 PM
Colon signed a 5 year - $29M contract with a $6M SB. To cut him next year his cap hit will still be $4.8M which makes it that much less that you can give to Starks.

Steelers do not sign big time long term contracts and then cut the player the following year. That is a Washington Redskins move.


The big cap hits for 2012 with questionable value to the team are Ward ($4.6M), Hampton ($7M), Smith ($5M), Kemo ($4.4M), Foote ($3.6M) and Farrior ($3.8M). I don't include Colon and his $5M hit because cutting him would force too much dead money into 2012. I think you have to dump the others though even though you will eat some dead money. This team needs to get younger and free up some money for the rising stars not the fading ones.

The real driver will be what does it take to retain Mike Wallace. I'm thinking at least $7-8M per year. I also would break the standard procedure and get Antonio Brown under contract sooner rather than later but I doubt that happens.

JUST-PLAIN-NASTY
12-06-2011, 12:50 PM
Kemo is out after this year. Colon will be here long term unless his injuries have slowed him down. They expect full recovery. Colon was playing his best football before his injury this year.

"Colon was playing his best football..."? How can you say that, when he went down so early and has basically been invisible to us for the past two years? Logic says that his "best football" (which was pre- his injuries, pre- his signing his big contract), his best football is behind him. That being said, he may still have some value, especially if he can play Guard and stay healthy... I think that's the key. Whether he can stay healthy or not.

As to Arians comments about Gilbert, of course he knows way more about the player than we do. But you have to realize that the coach is going to talk his guy up, and give him confidence, etc. I frankly haven't been sold on him yet. I'm hopeful though.

And lastly, I want to publicly commend Max Starks. I've always been hard on the guy, but there is no doubt that he's done a solid solid job. And he's only bound to be more solid, as the weather temperature goes down. The cold weather lends itself to the big plodding guys, rather than the fleet, agile guys.

Don't be a product of watching the ball. Colon was playing his best ball through the preseason. I gurantee Colbert was smiling from the box. He is young and we all knew where he was before the last two years. If he is healthy...He is one of the Steelers best OL. There is no debate.

JUST-PLAIN-NASTY
12-06-2011, 12:52 PM
Colon was playing his best football before his injury this year.
???
Colon hardly played this year--his injury happened so early on, I can barely remember that he was around.

He had a holding call and a false start in Baltimore before getting hurt.

Just some FYI..Everyone knocks his false starts. It is easy to ridicule if you never played football or never played OL. I can't imagine what it is like on the NFL level especially on the road. An OG or C has NO excuse. Plain and simple. For an OT...People do realize that on the road the OTs struggle to hear the cadence and can't see the ball out of their peripheral vision because of their deeper set? Any being a shorter OT doesn't help seeing the C out of the corner of your eye. So the OT is going off the G movement if he can't hear. Or cheating (which at the pro level a vet DL/OLB will catch you looking) and you go off your guys movement. The guy rushing has clear sight of ball and goes on movement. That is why many times you see the OT flinch with a twitch from the rusher. Caught him! Many times even when he can hear the OT tries to anticipate and get out as quick as the rusher. So as much as it pi$$es the average fan off...Some of us can appreciate the penalty. You hate to see it..But you know what is going on. You can give them a pass for one or maybe two on the road or against a premier rusher. Man you guys are brutal. I bet the majority of us in here wouldn't even get a hand on the rusher who is coming off the edge even if you knew ahead of time he was going to peel the corner on you. These are the worlds best athletes...Little things help in success.

That being said…I do not believe Colon will be released if he is healthy. Is there any logic to releasing a healthy player you just signed a multi year deal and send him to the street with 4 million dollars? Wow...Who forgot about the business side here. The same people who worked to give him that big contract are the same people that will have to walk in Rooney's office and say they are sending a healthy player to the street with 4 million of his dollars. Really? Who thinks that is something that will happen. He got that big contract based on his onfield production before this year. The FO saw fit to reward him yet the fans think he is garbage. If he is healthy...Colon is here. At worst case if he is healthy, the Steelers will ask him where he wants to be traded to but do they real have enough quality OL to do that? It is ridiculous to think the Steelers will get rid of one of their best OL, if he is healthy, who they just signed to a big contract because he didn't play this year and they have someone who filled in for him and performed at a high level.

ikestops85
12-06-2011, 01:17 PM
Colon signed a 5 year - $29M contract with a $6M SB. To cut him next year his cap hit will still be $4.8M which makes it that much less that you can give to Starks.

Steelers do not sign big time long term contracts and then cut the player the following year. That is a Washington Redskins move.


The big cap hits for 2012 with questionable value to the team are Ward ($4.6M), Hampton ($7M), Smith ($5M), Kemo ($4.4M), Foote ($3.6M) and Farrior ($3.8M). I don't include Colon and his $5M hit because cutting him would force too much dead money into 2012. I think you have to dump the others though even though you will eat some dead money. This team needs to get younger and free up some money for the rising stars not the fading ones.

The real driver will be what does it take to retain Mike Wallace. I'm thinking at least $7-8M per year. I also would break the standard procedure and get Antonio Brown under contract sooner rather than later but I doubt that happens.

Given those numbers I would say

Ward needs to renegotiate or he's gone
Hampton needs to renegotiate or he's gone (I don't think this happens)
Smith needs to be gone ... I love the guy but it is time
Kemo needs to be gone or at worst renegotiate
Foote has to reduce his price also ... he is a nice guy to have around in case of injuries
Farrior I'm okay with if he stays the starter otherwise he needs to renegotiate
Colon I wish we could cut but it's just not feasible for next year.

Where are we at with Ryan Clark? I think we need to trim some dollars off of his cap hit also. Mundy is starting to play better and better.

Oviedo
12-06-2011, 01:50 PM
Kemo is out after this year. Colon will be here long term unless his injuries have slowed him down. They expect full recovery. Colon was playing his best football before his injury this year.

"Colon was playing his best football..."? How can you say that, when he went down so early and has basically been invisible to us for the past two years? Logic says that his "best football" (which was pre- his injuries, pre- his signing his big contract), his best football is behind him. That being said, he may still have some value, especially if he can play Guard and stay healthy... I think that's the key. Whether he can stay healthy or not.

As to Arians comments about Gilbert, of course he knows way more about the player than we do. But you have to realize that the coach is going to talk his guy up, and give him confidence, etc. I frankly haven't been sold on him yet. I'm hopeful though.

And lastly, I want to publicly commend Max Starks. I've always been hard on the guy, but there is no doubt that he's done a solid solid job. And he's only bound to be more solid, as the weather temperature goes down. The cold weather lends itself to the big plodding guys, rather than the fleet, agile guys.


Starks has been doing exactly what he has done every year as the LT. Good solid, but not spectacular, football.

Classic example of not appreciating what you have until you lose it.

Oviedo
12-06-2011, 01:54 PM
Colon signed a 5 year - $29M contract with a $6M SB. To cut him next year his cap hit will still be $4.8M which makes it that much less that you can give to Starks.

Steelers do not sign big time long term contracts and then cut the player the following year. That is a Washington Redskins move.


The big cap hits for 2012 with questionable value to the team are Ward ($4.6M), Hampton ($7M), Smith ($5M), Kemo ($4.4M), Foote ($3.6M) and Farrior ($3.8M). I don't include Colon and his $5M hit because cutting him would force too much dead money into 2012. I think you have to dump the others though even though you will eat some dead money. This team needs to get younger and free up some money for the rising stars not the fading ones.

The real driver will be what does it take to retain Mike Wallace. I'm thinking at least $7-8M per year. I also would break the standard procedure and get Antonio Brown under contract sooner rather than later but I doubt that happens.

Given those numbers I would say

Ward needs to renegotiate or he's gone
Hampton needs to renegotiate or he's gone (I don't think this happens)
Smith needs to be gone ... I love the guy but it is time
Kemo needs to be gone or at worst renegotiate
Foote has to reduce his price also ... he is a nice guy to have around in case of injuries
Farrior I'm okay with if he stays the starter otherwise he needs to renegotiate
Colon I wish we could cut but it's just not feasible for next year.

Where are we at with Ryan Clark? I think we need to trim some dollars off of his cap hit also. Mundy is starting to play better and better.


Clark is over $4M for next year. Renegotiate or get rid of him.

All these guys won't go but except for maybe Hines and Farrior I would shed a tear if any of the rest were let go.

Not sure of Hampton's value but he is essentially a two-down player and McLendon has come in and we haven't missed a beat. Get a rookie in the draft or a less expensive veteran through free agency.

Sorry to say but I think Hoke is done. I think he has been great for us and I have always preferred his style of play over Hampton's.

steelz09
12-06-2011, 03:09 PM
Colon signed a 5 year - $29M contract with a $6M SB. To cut him next year his cap hit will still be $4.8M which makes it that much less that you can give to Starks.

Steelers do not sign big time long term contracts and then cut the player the following year. That is a Washington Redskins move.


The big cap hits for 2012 with questionable value to the team are Ward ($4.6M), Hampton ($7M), Smith ($5M), Kemo ($4.4M), Foote ($3.6M) and Farrior ($3.8M). I don't include Colon and his $5M hit because cutting him would force too much dead money into 2012. I think you have to dump the others though even though you will eat some dead money. This team needs to get younger and free up some money for the rising stars not the fading ones.
The real driver will be what does it take to retain Mike Wallace. I'm thinking at least $7-8M per year. I also would break the standard procedure and get Antonio Brown under contract sooner rather than later but I doubt that happens.

Given those numbers I would say

Ward needs to renegotiate or he's gone
Hampton needs to renegotiate or he's gone (I don't think this happens)
Smith needs to be gone ... I love the guy but it is time
Kemo needs to be gone or at worst renegotiate
Foote has to reduce his price also ... he is a nice guy to have around in case of injuries
Farrior I'm okay with if he stays the starter otherwise he needs to renegotiate
Colon I wish we could cut but it's just not feasible for next year.

Where are we at with Ryan Clark? I think we need to trim some dollars off of his cap hit also. Mundy is starting to play better and better.

I agree w/ all of these .... Hampton absolutely needs to take a cut and Farrior should to (and he probably will) as well as Clark and Ward.

The Steelers signed a lot of their big money guys last offseason. If the money coming off the books next year (see above), they should be able to resign guys like Starks and Wallace. They won't let Brown walk either.

NJ-STEELER
12-07-2011, 12:07 AM
what put colon out for the season?

i thought it was the same injury... achilles?

focosteeler
12-07-2011, 12:25 AM
what put colon out for the season?

i thought it was the same injury... achilles?
i believe it was a torn triceps this time

NJ-STEELER
12-07-2011, 02:13 AM
oh yeah
that was it

thanks

steeler_george
12-08-2011, 06:18 AM
This year we select offense in the first round. As we usually do, alternate from Defense to offense in the first round. Now this is just a theory, not saying it set in stone.

If there is a premier tackle still left on he board, could it be the end of Starks, and maybe not this year, but next year, the end of the line for Colon.

As desperate we are at Guard, I think the mix of leg, foster, dare to say Essex, and this year rookie Scott ( don't forget the coaching staff was big on him in the pre-seaon, till he was overwhelmed in the preseason games) might be adequate, but not a dream scenario for next year.

from left to right:

Gilbert-Leg-Pouncey-Foster-Colon back up guards: Scott, Essex ( i hate him though), tackles : Rookie, Scott, Essex

As thankful for being able to pick up Starks, he is going to take the Hotels roll.

7 UP
12-08-2011, 07:53 AM
[quote="JUST-PLAIN-NASTY":1s9fehp1]Colon was playing his best football before his injury this year.
???
Colon hardly played this year--his injury happened so early on, I can barely remember that he was around.

He had a holding call and a false start in Baltimore before getting hurt.

Just some FYI..Everyone knocks his false starts. It is easy to ridicule if you never played football or never played OL. I can't imagine what it is like on the NFL level especially on the road. An OG or C has NO excuse. Plain and simple. For an OT...People do realize that on the road the OTs struggle to hear the cadence and can't see the ball out of their peripheral vision because of their deeper set? Any being a shorter OT doesn't help seeing the C out of the corner of your eye. So the OT is going off the G movement if he can't hear. Or cheating (which at the pro level a vet DL/OLB will catch you looking) and you go off your guys movement. The guy rushing has clear sight of ball and goes on movement. That is why many times you see the OT flinch with a twitch from the rusher. Caught him! Many times even when he can hear the OT tries to anticipate and get out as quick as the rusher. So as much as it pi$$es the average fan off...Some of us can appreciate the penalty. You hate to see it..But you know what is going on. You can give them a pass for one or maybe two on the road or against a premier rusher. Man you guys are brutal. I bet the majority of us in here wouldn't even get a hand on the rusher who is coming off the edge even if you knew ahead of time he was going to peel the corner on you. These are the worlds best athletes...Little things help in success.

That being said…I do not believe Colon will be released if he is healthy. Is there any logic to releasing a healthy player you just signed a multi year deal and send him to the street with 4 million dollars? Wow...Who forgot about the business side here. The same people who worked to give him that big contract are the same people that will have to walk in Rooney's office and say they are sending a healthy player to the street with 4 million of his dollars. Really? Who thinks that is something that will happen. He got that big contract based on his onfield production before this year. The FO saw fit to reward him yet the fans think he is garbage. If he is healthy...Colon is here. At worst case if he is healthy, the Steelers will ask him where he wants to be traded to but do they real have enough quality OL to do that? It is ridiculous to think the Steelers will get rid of one of their best OL, if he is healthy, who they just signed to a big contract because he didn't play this year and they have someone who filled in for him and performed at a high level.[/quote:1s9fehp1]

Not to call you out, but this is the dumbest thing Ive ever read and there is absolutely zero truth to what you just said. I played OT all through my High School career and I have coached OL for several years since I stopped playing. False starts happen to those who struggle in pass protection. Willie struggles so badly with his footwork, that he has trouble getting set in pass protection. He leaves early because he consistently gets beat off the ball. When you get beat off the ball in pass protection, that leaves you off balance. When you are off balance in pass protection you are susceptible to the bull rush. What your doing is calling making excuses for a guy. He false starts because he cant hear? Cmon man.

7 UP
12-08-2011, 08:11 AM
As for the business side of Willie Colon, he will be here. The Steelers love Willie Colon. They always have. From his rookie year they have always raved about the guy. I have no doubt that The Steelers will leave Starks high and dry once again for Colon.

The Steelers may quite possibly be the worst judge of OL talent in the entire league. I never understood what they saw in Colon. I never will understand. The sad thing about the Colon contract is there were no other teams even interested in Willie. Colons agent issued a statement that Willie had an offer from the Chiefs. It was shortly after that the Steelers signed him. My opinion is if Willie had not signed here he would be out of the league. Nobody wanted him. What does that tell you? Unfortunately now we are stuck with the guy.

WindyCitySteel
12-08-2011, 08:32 AM
As for the business side of Willie Colon, he will be here. The Steelers love Willie Colon. They always have. From his rookie year they have always raved about the guy. I have no doubt that The Steelers will leave Starks high and dry once again for Colon.

The Steelers may quite possibly be the worst judge of OL talent in the entire league. I never understood what they saw in Colon. I never will understand. The sad thing about the Colon contract is there were no other teams even interested in Willie. Colons agent issued a statement that Willie had an offer from the Chiefs. It was shortly after that the Steelers signed him. My opinion is if Willie had not signed here he would be out of the league. Nobody wanted him. What does that tell you? Unfortunately now we are stuck with the guy.

Great post. If we release Starks for Colon and lose him for the year again, someone needs to lose their job.

JUST-PLAIN-NASTY
12-08-2011, 09:40 AM
Not to call you out, but this is the dumbest thing Ive ever read and there is absolutely zero truth to what you just said. I played OT all through my High School career and I have coached OL for several years since I stopped playing. False starts happen to those who struggle in pass protection. Willie struggles so badly with his footwork, that he has trouble getting set in pass protection. He leaves early because he consistently gets beat off the ball. When you get beat off the ball in pass protection, that leaves you off balance. When you are off balance in pass protection you are susceptible to the bull rush. What your doing is calling making excuses for a guy. He false starts because he cant hear? Cmon man.

You did call me out. I played OL from pee wee, high school, & college. Just on the college level there is a huge jump from high school and I didn't play any D1 football. I coach now too. There is absolute truth to what I say. I never had any problem in a high school game hearing the cadence so you can't use that as any comparison. False starts happen for many reasons and one is what you said. However, if you are telling me you played football and coach football and can say Colon is not any good...Then you show what you really know. ALL OT try to get out quick...It's the NFL. Who can get out late and hold his own. "C'mon man!" Your evaluation of pass pro is high school level. From college level you develop the kickslide to open to the defender while not bending at the waist...bend at the knees, while keeping your back positioned, slide and punch. The pupose of this is to maintain balance for leverage and maintaining change of direction ability...Keeping your weight over your feet. Of course when you are off balance you are suspect to getting bulled. That is football and nothing new. You just described something that has nothing to do with Colon. Colon's better skill is his ability to maintain his balance and not get bulled. Colon's balance is far above average. What he does get exposed to sometimes is with his restarting his kickslide to beat the defender to the edge when he pulls up or redirecting himself when the inside counter comes. I didn't say all his false starts come form not hearing and am making no excuses. Talk about the dumbest thing I have ever read and absolutely zero truth. You could hear the cadence from the stands in highschool games...Really not any comparison. You will never hear that excuse from an OL to bait the crowd. But it is no secret either...That is talked about all over the league and is nothing new. Crowd noise has a huge impact on OT getting out.

7 UP
12-08-2011, 09:55 AM
[quote="7 UP":2uofdgxo] Not to call you out, but this is the dumbest thing Ive ever read and there is absolutely zero truth to what you just said. I played OT all through my High School career and I have coached OL for several years since I stopped playing. False starts happen to those who struggle in pass protection. Willie struggles so badly with his footwork, that he has trouble getting set in pass protection. He leaves early because he consistently gets beat off the ball. When you get beat off the ball in pass protection, that leaves you off balance. When you are off balance in pass protection you are susceptible to the bull rush. What your doing is calling making excuses for a guy. He false starts because he cant hear? Cmon man.

You did call me out. I played OL from pee wee, high school, & college. Just on the college level there is a huge jump from high school and I didn't play any D1 football. I coach now too. There is absolute truth to what I say. I never had any problem in a high school game hearing the cadence so you can't use that as any comparison. False starts happen for many reasons and one is what you said. However, if you are telling me you played football and coach football and can say Colon is not any good...Then you show what you really know. ALL OT try to get out quick...It's the NFL. Who can get out late and hold his own. "C'mon man!" Your evaluation of pass pro is high school level. From college level you develop the kickslide to open to the defender while not bending at the waist...bend at the knees, while keeping your back positioned, slide and punch. The pupose of this is to maintain balance for leverage and maintaining change of direction ability...Keeping your weight over your feet. Of course when you are off balance you are suspect to getting bulled. That is football and nothing new. You just described something that has nothing to do with Colon. Colon's better skill is his ability to maintain his balance and not get bulled. Colon's balance is far above average. What he does get exposed to sometimes is with his restarting his kickslide to beat the defender to the edge when he pulls up or redirecting himself when the inside counter comes. I didn't say all his false starts come form not hearing and am making no excuses. Talk about the dumbest thing I have ever read and absolutely zero truth. You could hear the cadence from the stands in highschool games...Really not any comparison.[/quote:2uofdgxo]


Gee its funny how all the other tackles in the league can hear the cadence except for Willie. :roll: Max Starks and Gilbert arent having a problem hearing. Oh thats right they can hear because they are tall. :roll: A D2 stadium is not freaking Heinz Field, nor is it even close. So you have no more idea than I do what the noise level may or may not be like on an NFL field. You are totally reaching here, and frankly making yourself look silly. If what you say is true lets all take up a collection to get Colon a hearing aid for next season, because the guy needs all the help he can get. :roll:

7 UP
12-08-2011, 10:02 AM
By the way I have been to several D2 stadiums. NONE of them even slightly compared to a D1 stadium let alone an NFL stadium. As a matter of fact alot of them pretty much are High School stadiums. Im sorry that you had so much trouble hearing during your playing days though. I never had that problem.

Chadman
12-08-2011, 10:10 AM
Willie Colon is one of the few Steelers OL players over the last few years that Chadman doesn't see driven back at the point of attack by stronger players. He holds his base well- better than most. He's very strong. If he locks on to the defender- the defender is nullified.

His sideways agility however appears to be subpar.

When Ben goes a-scramblin', Colon has trouble with rushers getting around him.

But in the run game, he's a superior run grader.

In Chadman's opinion- he's one of the better Steelers OL players. He's a passable OT, but with Starks proving to be a valuable LT, and with Gilbert looking good at RT, Colon's future should be on the inside at RG between Pouncey & Gilbert.

JUST-PLAIN-NASTY
12-08-2011, 11:09 AM
Gee its funny how all the other tackles in the league can hear the cadence except for Willie. :roll: Max Starks and Gilbert arent having a problem hearing. Oh thats right they can hear because they are tall. :roll: A D2 stadium is not freaking Heinz Field, nor is it even close. So you have no more idea than I do what the noise level may or may not be like on an NFL field. You are totally reaching here, and frankly making yourself look silly. If what you say is true lets all take up a collection to get Colon a hearing aid for next season, because the guy needs all the help he can get. :roll:

They all have trouble...All of them. There is a reason the D calls for the crowd noise....That is one. Coaches talk about it all the time. Not hearing the cadence & line calls...Audibles. Did you just make yourself just look like an idiot. I never said a D2 school was Heinz field. I said the is a huge jump from high school to college. And D2 is no comparison to D1. It is loud and I can only imagine what NFL is. Not only do you not know football but you can't comprehend. I do know the jump from high school to college and judging by your football knowledge and being a coach you probably can't even begin to image since only the parents are in the stands behind you.

JUST-PLAIN-NASTY
12-08-2011, 11:11 AM
By the way I have been to several D2 stadiums. NONE of them even slightly compared to a D1 stadium let alone an NFL stadium. As a matter of fact alot of them pretty much are High School stadiums. Im sorry that you had so much trouble hearing during your playing days though. I never had that problem.

I never had any problem in high school which is all you have to go by. Go sit in happy valley when the D is on the field and tell me what you buddy says at the end of the row. At Heinz field, teams struggle in shotgun...It is clear. When a team is forced to go on movement Woodley & Harrison thrive.

7 UP
12-08-2011, 11:40 AM
If all players struggle with crowd noise, then why does Colon struggle even more than everyone else?? Your argument dosent even make logical sense. Starks dosent take those penalties. Neither does Gilbert. Flozell didnt either and that was the big knock on him coming in from Dallas.

When a tackle is consistently getting holding and false start penalties, its because he is getting beat its that simple. You false start because you are trying to beat your man of the ball. You hold because you cant hold your block otherwise. You can make up all the ridiculous excuses you want to, its really black and white.

Let me ask you this coach. How many times have we seen formation penalties because big Willie is lined up darn near in the backfield? Now why would a tackle have to line up so far off the line of scrimmage? Its because hes getting beat off the ball and needs the extra space to be able get in position to pass block.

We can talk about penalties all you want. Take the penalties away and Colon is still a below average NFL tackle. His slide is more like a backpedal. His run blocking is passable. Its his pass blocking Im taking him to task with.

7 UP
12-08-2011, 11:54 AM
[quote="7 UP":3kiiurhe]By the way I have been to several D2 stadiums. NONE of them even slightly compared to a D1 stadium let alone an NFL stadium. As a matter of fact alot of them pretty much are High School stadiums. Im sorry that you had so much trouble hearing during your playing days though. I never had that problem.

I never had any problem in high school which is all you have to go by. Go sit in happy valley when the D is on the field and tell me what you buddy says at the end of the row. At Heinz field, teams struggle in shotgun...It is clear. When a team is forced to go on movement Woodley & Harrison thrive.[/quote:3kiiurhe]


Dude get over yourself. The tackle who played opposite me in highschool went on to play for Clarion. I went to a lot of his games, I dont recall seeing him false start even once. To be honest I personally thought are HighSchool crowd was louder. If you actually played college ball, your D2 career dosent give you some "secret inside infromation" into what NFL lineman hear. Nor does it make your point more valid than mine because I only played in High School. Nor does it make your point more valid than anyone else who follows football.

JUST-PLAIN-NASTY
12-08-2011, 12:54 PM
If all players struggle with crowd noise, then why does Colon struggle even more than everyone else?? Your argument dosent even make logical sense. Starks dosent take those penalties. Neither does Gilbert. Flozell didnt either and that was the big knock on him coming in from Dallas.

When a tackle is consistently getting holding and false start penalties, its because he is getting beat its that simple. You false start because you are trying to beat your man of the ball. You hold because you cant hold your block otherwise. You can make up all the ridiculous excuses you want to, its really black and white.

Let me ask you this coach. How many times have we seen formation penalties because big Willie is lined up darn near in the backfield? Now why would a tackle have to line up so far off the line of scrimmage? Its because hes getting beat off the ball and needs the extra space to be able get in position to pass block.

We can talk about penalties all you want. Take the penalties away and Colon is still a below average NFL tackle. His slide is more like a backpedal. His run blocking is passable. Its his pass blocking Im taking him to task with.

You are acting like Colon is the only one getting those penalties. I have watched him his whole career. I have watched all of them you refer to. The all get those penalties. Colon is no different than anyone else. Lining up deep is domething they all push. If you have been around football like you say you are you know there isn't a bible. Coaches teach the deep set. They push it to the limit. The ref walks in the huddle and tells you you are deep move up or he will call it. Your opinion of Colon is your opinion just like mine. He is one of the better OT in the game. His big contract from the Steelers seems to back up my argument. So where is your great evaluation fueled from? That's right...your opinion. Nothing you could present could back-up what you want to believe is true...And Colon's play on the field speaks for itself. HE is above average in run & pass pro. If you can't see that...Then you are off.

7 UP
12-08-2011, 01:02 PM
.[/quote]

He is one of the better OT in the game. [/quote]

:tt2 :Cheers :Clap :D :D :D :D :D :D :Clap :Beer :tt2

LMFAO at the quoted above statement. He has never sniffed the Pro Bowl even as an alternate. So no one but you thinks hes one of the better OTs in the game.

JUST-PLAIN-NASTY
12-08-2011, 01:22 PM
Dude get over yourself. The tackle who played opposite me in highschool went on to play for Clarion. I went to a lot of his games, I dont recall seeing him false start even once. To be honest I personally thought are HighSchool crowd was louder. If you actually played college ball, your D2 career dosent give you some "secret inside infromation" into what NFL lineman hear. Nor does it make your point more valid than mine because I only played in High School. Nor does it make your point more valid than anyone else who follows football.

Knowing the guy next to who went to Clarion and sitting in the stands at the game doesn't give you any insight or make your argument any more valid than mine. Everything out of your mouth is no better than mine. If you think crowd noise doesn't play a factor in college & NFL ball...You are mistaken. You don't have to swallow it as my opinion. It is discussed over & over week in and week out. Just because my experience makes me believe it doesn't mean I'm wrong because you think otherwise. Have you ever went to a D1 game or a pro game for a home team? You can honestly day that crowd noise when the home teams defense was on the field had no impact on the OL? If your answer is no...Enough said. Flozell was one of the most penalized OL in the game for years. Yet remained one of the top OT and saw many probowls. So how does that weigh? In '09 Starks was the most penalized Steeler with 7 (3 FS & 4 H). Colon was 2nd with 6 (4 FS & 2 H). 2010 Starks 2 in 6 games & Flozell had 9. So how is Starks & Flozell not doing it but Colon is?

JUST-PLAIN-NASTY
12-08-2011, 01:24 PM
LMFAO at the quoted above statement. He has never sniffed the Pro Bowl even as an alternate. So no one but you thinks hes one of the better OTs in the game.

No...The Steelers do..His contract proves it. He is regarded as one of the better RT in the league. Don't know where you have been. You don't like him...So be it. Just because you don't like him and don't know what you are looking at...The truth won't change.

7 UP
12-08-2011, 01:44 PM
No...The Steelers do..His contract proves it.
This proves nothing. The Steelers have done a very poor job over the past 10 years of attempting to put an OL together. They have made bad decisions on guys and it has cost them. Colons contract was another example of a poor decision. Remember when they franchised Starks and then benched him???

He is regarded as one of the better RT in the league.
Cmon dude!!! By who???? He was a free agent, nobody wanted him. If not for the Steelers he would be out of the league right now.

Don't know where you have been. You don't like him...So be it. Just because you don't like him and don't know what you are looking at...The truth won't change.
LMFAO again. If you think Willie freaking Colon is one of the best Tackles in the league then you are the one who has no idea what you are looking at. I understand you like him, but at best the guy is average. One of the better in the league. WOW

RuthlessBurgher
12-08-2011, 02:26 PM
He is regarded as one of the better RT in the league.
Cmon dude!!! By who???? He was a free agent, nobody wanted him. If not for the Steelers he would be out of the league right now.

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/11209/1163623-100.stm

Colon turns down extra $3 million from Bears to stay with Steelers
Thursday, July 28, 2011
By Ed Bouchette, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

Before he could jump in the shower and head to Latrobe, offensive tackle Willie Colon was jumping for joy after agreeing to a five-year contract with the Steelers for $29 million this evening.

"I'm happy ... I could not see leaving," Colon said. "My happiness is in that room and with coach [Sean] Kugler.''

That room would be the one where line coach Sean Kugler gathers together his players for meetings, and they will be rejoined by another key member. Jonathan Scott, who started at left tackle after Max Starks' neck injury last November, also came to terms with the team this evening on a two-year contract.

Colon, who missed last season with an achilles injury after starting the previous three years at right tackle, said he accepted $3 million less over the life of the contract from the Steelers than what the Chicago Bears had offered him to join them.

"I know what I got in that room and on that team," Colon explained. "My happiness means more to me."

It remains to be seen what now will become of 36-year-old tackle Flozell Adams, who reported to training camp on time. He has a $5 million salary and the Steelers would like to reduce that. Adams signed last summer and took over at right tackle for Colon, whose achilles was ruptured in June. Colon likely will be returned to start at right tackle.

At 36, it's doubtful the Steelers would move Adams to left tackle.

First published on July 28, 2011 at 7:03 pm

Read more: http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/11209/11 ... z1fy8k321y (http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/11209/1163623-100.stm#ixzz1fy8k321y)

RuthlessBurgher
12-08-2011, 02:34 PM
He has never sniffed the Pro Bowl even as an alternate. So no one but you thinks hes one of the better OTs in the game.

Consider that there are 64 starting OT's in the league, and 6 of them make the Pro Bowl each year (3 in each conference). Among OT's, those spots tend to be taken by premium LT's, not RT's (in the AFC, the Pro Bowl tackle nods tend to go to elite LT's taken very early in their draft years like Joe Thomas, Jake Long, D'Brickashaw Ferguson, and Ryan Clady).

Slapstick
12-08-2011, 03:42 PM
He is regarded as one of the better RT in the league.
Cmon dude!!! By who???? He was a free agent, nobody wanted him. If not for the Steelers he would be out of the league right now.


Colon turns down extra $3 million from Bears to stay with Steelers
Thursday, July 28, 2011
By Ed Bouchette, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I don't care who you are, that's funny!

7 UP
12-08-2011, 04:21 PM
He has never sniffed the Pro Bowl even as an alternate. So no one but you thinks hes one of the better OTs in the game.

Consider that there are 64 starting OT's in the league, and 6 of them make the Pro Bowl each year (3 in each conference). Among OT's, those spots tend to be taken by premium LT's, not RT's (in the AFC, the Pro Bowl tackle nods tend to go to elite LT's taken very early in their draft years like Joe Thomas, Jake Long, D'Brickashaw Ferguson, and Ryan Clady).


So in other words hes not one of the better tackles in the league.

RuthlessBurgher
12-08-2011, 04:26 PM
[quote="7 UP":36d0frap]He has never sniffed the Pro Bowl even as an alternate. So no one but you thinks hes one of the better OTs in the game.

Consider that there are 64 starting OT's in the league, and 6 of them make the Pro Bowl each year (3 in each conference). Among OT's, those spots tend to be taken by premium LT's, not RT's (in the AFC, the Pro Bowl tackle nods tend to go to elite LT's taken very early in their draft years like Joe Thomas, Jake Long, D'Brickashaw Ferguson, and Ryan Clady).


So in other words hes not one of the better tackles in the league.[/quote:36d0frap]

Less than 10% of the starting tackles in the league make the Pro Bowl. No, he isn't in the top 10% of starting tackles in the league. But I don't think that the category "one of the better tackles in the league" cuts off at 10%, do you?

Matt Forte and LeSean McCoy have never made it to the Pro Bowl. Are they not "one of the better running backs in the league" because of it?

7 UP
12-08-2011, 04:36 PM
[quote="7 UP":1o54ounq]He has never sniffed the Pro Bowl even as an alternate. So no one but you thinks hes one of the better OTs in the game.

Consider that there are 64 starting OT's in the league, and 6 of them make the Pro Bowl each year (3 in each conference). Among OT's, those spots tend to be taken by premium LT's, not RT's (in the AFC, the Pro Bowl tackle nods tend to go to elite LT's taken very early in their draft years like Joe Thomas, Jake Long, D'Brickashaw Ferguson, and Ryan Clady).


So in other words hes not one of the better tackles in the league.

Less than 10% of the starting tackles in the league make the Pro Bowl. No, he isn't in the top 10% of starting tackles in the league. But I don't think that the category "one of the better tackles in the league" cuts off at 10%, do you?

Matt Forte and LeSean McCoy have never made it to the Pro Bowl. Are they not "one of the better running backs in the league" because of it?[/quote:1o54ounq]

Both will make the Pro Bowl this year. You are looking only at guys voted in. How many guys get to go as alternates? How many guys get to be alternates do to injuries? Over the span of Colons career your telling me he has never even been inconsideration for any of those spots, but he is one of the better tackles in the game?

feltdizz
12-08-2011, 05:13 PM
I don't really watch the OL so I can't speak on kickouts and crowd noise but ummm.... you guys make it sound like Colon is the only OT to get a false start.

It happens a lot in the NFL and I'm pretty sure it can be called on any pass play because most OT's tend to "kickout?" a little before the snap.

phillyesq
12-08-2011, 05:43 PM
I'm sure that crowd noise is difficult for all OTs, but I'm pretty sure that Willie and Flozell were both among the league leaders. IIRC, they were 1-2 in false start penalties in 2009.

steelz09
12-08-2011, 08:16 PM
The last 2 years we haven't had Colon. An old man (Flozell) and a rookie (Gilbert) has replaced Colon the last 2 years. IMO, we haven't seen a huge drop off, if any.

That tells me that Colon is nothing to brag about.

flippy
12-08-2011, 09:22 PM
Here's my ranking of our linemen according to their importance.

1. Starks
2. Pouncey
3. Doug
4. Gilbert
5. Ramon

When Colon comes back, I think you either slide him in at RG or move Gilbert to RG if Colon can't play G.

I like Max and Gilbert on the outside. They've got good feet and do a great job against some good pass rushers - especially Max, but you can see Gilbert's the better athlete.

I think Colon doesn't have the lateral quickness to be a great T. And think if you had Doug, Puncey, and Colon on the inside of the line, you'd have some powerful guys that could move some big DTs.

JUST-PLAIN-NASTY
12-08-2011, 11:15 PM
No...The Steelers do..His contract proves it.
This proves nothing. The Steelers have done a very poor job over the past 10 years of attempting to put an OL together. They have made bad decisions on guys and it has cost them. Colons contract was another example of a poor decision. Remember when they franchised Starks and then benched him???

He is regarded as one of the better RT in the league.
Cmon dude!!! By who???? He was a free agent, nobody wanted him. If not for the Steelers he would be out of the league right now.

Don't know where you have been. You don't like him...So be it. Just because you don't like him and don't know what you are looking at...The truth won't change.
LMFAO again. If you think Willie freaking Colon is one of the best Tackles in the league then you are the one who has no idea what you are looking at. I understand you like him, but at best the guy is average. One of the better in the league. WOW

Starks & Colon were not bad decision. They both have been a huge part of the succes since they have been there. Even if Colon doesn't play another down for the Steelers because of injury...It was the right decision...It will be just bad luck. If Colon wasn't coming off an injury...He would have been a highly sought after free agent on the OL. Even saying that, the Bears made him a large offer. Colon wanted to be here long term...That was no secret.

Colon has been regarded as one of the best RT in this league by many people with better credentials than pee wee football coach. Your opinion of him has nothing to do with his production on the field. It is obvious. That is hilarious that you think Colon wouldn't be in the NFL if he didn't play for the Steelers.

I can evaluate players based on production...Not on personal feelings. You don't like him and we can all see it has nothing to do with what you know about OL play or his play. Spit & stutter all you want...The truth is hard to swallow.

JUST-PLAIN-NASTY
12-08-2011, 11:17 PM
The last 2 years we haven't had Colon. An old man (Flozell) and a rookie (Gilbert) has replaced Colon the last 2 years. IMO, we haven't seen a huge drop off, if any.

That tells me that Colon is nothing to brag about.

That tells me Flozell and Gilbert are dam good ball players.

steelz09
12-09-2011, 12:45 PM
They are good players.... better than Colon at tackle. That's what I'm saying.

With our o-line struggles why would you go away from what works??? Starkss at LT and Gilbert at RT simply works.

Colon is a good run blocker and has some power. Foster is decent and Legurskey is decent as well and very solid center back-up. I'd let Colon, Legursky and Foster fight for the two starting guard postions. I personally like any one of those three as a guard going into next season. As far as T goes, stick with what WORKS. Leave Starks at LT and Gilbert at RT!

RuthlessBurgher
12-09-2011, 01:32 PM
They are good players.... better than Colon at tackle. That's what I'm saying.

With our o-line struggles why would you go away from what works??? Starkss at LT and Gilbert at RT simply works.

Colon is a good run blocker and has some power. Foster is decent and Legurskey is decent as well and very solid center back-up. I'd let Colon, Legursky and Foster fight for the two starting guard postions. I personally like any one of those three as a guard going into next season. As far as T goes, stick with what WORKS. Leave Starks at LT and Gilbert at RT!

We need to re-sign Starks first. He is currently working on a 1 year contract. That may not be the easiest thing in the world to do.

JUST-PLAIN-NASTY
12-09-2011, 02:36 PM
They are good players.... better than Colon at tackle. That's what I'm saying.

With our o-line struggles why would you go away from what works??? Starkss at LT and Gilbert at RT simply works.

Colon is a good run blocker and has some power. Foster is decent and Legurskey is decent as well and very solid center back-up. I'd let Colon, Legursky and Foster fight for the two starting guard postions. I personally like any one of those three as a guard going into next season. As far as T goes, stick with what WORKS. Leave Starks at LT and Gilbert at RT!

Adams wasn't better than Colon. Gilbert on the other hand would be a tough call. I don't think he is better right now but he is growing fast and there is no doubt in my mind he can exceed Colon's level and even play LT. Your theory of "why would you go away from what works" has two sides. Starks & Colon worked too.

Look into the "why would you go away from what works" even further from a coaches perspective. The more important thing would be to get the best 5 on the field. A healthy Colon & Starks would be in that Top 5. Pouncey would top that list. Gilbert definately is in that list too. Now...Kemo will be gone. His ridiculous outing last night all but sealed his fate. Message sent but not received...He is out. Gilbert is slated to be the LT of the future. He also played G in college and if you watch highlights of him in college...He has shown abilities where ever he played. I would be getting him snaps at LG in camp to to get him acclimated with the left side. I think he beats everyone out at G. Not only does that move make sense in a handing but it makes sense in a depth chart perspective with Kemo being gone. Then you have Starks-Gilbert-Pouncey-TBD-Colon. I don't care who you like or what you want to say...That is a very good 4 to work with.

Foster & Bronco are valuable and capable starters...But they will get competition in the trenches for next year. Neither will go anywhere if they get beat out.

7 UP
12-09-2011, 03:34 PM
They are good players.... better than Colon at tackle. That's what I'm saying.

With our o-line struggles why would you go away from what works??? Starkss at LT and Gilbert at RT simply works.

Colon is a good run blocker and has some power. Foster is decent and Legurskey is decent as well and very solid center back-up. I'd let Colon, Legursky and Foster fight for the two starting guard postions. I personally like any one of those three as a guard going into next season. As far as T goes, stick with what WORKS. Leave Starks at LT and Gilbert at RT!

Adams wasn't better than Colon. Gilbert on the other hand would be a tough call. I don't think he is better right now but he is growing fast and there is no doubt in my mind he can exceed Colon's level and even play LT. Your theory of "why would you go away from what works" has two sides. Starks & Colon worked too.

Look into the "why would you go away from what works" even further from a coaches perspective. The more important thing would be to get the best 5 on the field. A healthy Colon & Starks would be in that Top 5. Pouncey would top that list. Gilbert definately is in that list too. Now...Kemo will be gone. His ridiculous outing last night all but sealed his fate. Message sent but not received...He is out. Gilbert is slated to be the LT of the future. He also played G in college and if you watch highlights of him in college...He has shown abilities where ever he played. I would be getting him snaps at LG in camp to to get him acclimated with the left side. I think he beats everyone out at G. Not only does that move make sense in a handing but it makes sense in a depth chart perspective with Kemo being gone. Then you have Starks-Gilbert-Pouncey-TBD-Colon. I don't care who you like or what you want to say...That is a very good 4 to work with.

Foster & Bronco are valuable and capable starters...But they will get competition in the trenches for next year. Neither will go anywhere if they get beat out.


Adams was 30 times better than Colon. Flozell is a guy who was one of the best in the league, and highly regarded. Not Colon. But wait thats right, you spent some time as a backup lineman for Division3 Devry Technical Institutes Flag Football team, so you know best. :roll: Your not even living in reality.

Slapstick
12-09-2011, 03:38 PM
Adams was 30 times better than Colon. Flozell is a guy who was one of the best in the league, and highly regarded.

In his prime, Adams was probably better than Colon...

Last year? Not really...

JUST-PLAIN-NASTY
12-09-2011, 03:50 PM
[quote=jhansle1]They are good players.... better than Colon at tackle. That's what I'm saying.

With our o-line struggles why would you go away from what works??? Starkss at LT and Gilbert at RT simply works.

Colon is a good run blocker and has some power. Foster is decent and Legurskey is decent as well and very solid center back-up. I'd let Colon, Legursky and Foster fight for the two starting guard postions. I personally like any one of those three as a guard going into next season. As far as T goes, stick with what WORKS. Leave Starks at LT and Gilbert at RT!

Adams wasn't better than Colon. Gilbert on the other hand would be a tough call. I don't think he is better right now but he is growing fast and there is no doubt in my mind he can exceed Colon's level and even play LT. Your theory of "why would you go away from what works" has two sides. Starks & Colon worked too.

Look into the "why would you go away from what works" even further from a coaches perspective. The more important thing would be to get the best 5 on the field. A healthy Colon & Starks would be in that Top 5. Pouncey would top that list. Gilbert definately is in that list too. Now...Kemo will be gone. His ridiculous outing last night all but sealed his fate. Message sent but not received...He is out. Gilbert is slated to be the LT of the future. He also played G in college and if you watch highlights of him in college...He has shown abilities where ever he played. I would be getting him snaps at LG in camp to to get him acclimated with the left side. I think he beats everyone out at G. Not only does that move make sense in a handing but it makes sense in a depth chart perspective with Kemo being gone. Then you have Starks-Gilbert-Pouncey-TBD-Colon. I don't care who you like or what you want to say...That is a very good 4 to work with.

Foster & Bronco are valuable and capable starters...But they will get competition in the trenches for next year. Neither will go anywhere if they get beat out.


Adams was 30 times better than Colon. Flozell is a guy who was one of the best in the league, and highly regarded. Not Colon. But wait thats right, you spent some time as a backup lineman for Division3 Devry Technical Institutes Flag Football team, so you know best. :roll: Your not even living in reality.[/quote:ah7uvlzi]

Adams was not better than Colon last year. Adams was a better OT over his career and I never indicated he wasn't. Don't hate the player hate the game. It isn't my fault mommy wouldn't let you leave the house for college and in high school you stood at the shower opening and collected the dirty jock straps. Did they give you a letter jacket for that? Stop crying like the child you are by trying to type facts that nobody is disputing. Don't be mad at me. There is even a place in this world for Walmart greeters...They work as hard as the next guy. I like you...That should count for something.

7 UP
12-09-2011, 03:53 PM
http://scores.nbcsports.msnbc.com/fb/pl ... sp?id=7880 (http://scores.nbcsports.msnbc.com/fb/playerstats.asp?id=7880)

Heres some stats for you guys on Willie Colon the worlds greatest tackle.

In 2007 through 2009 WILLIE GAVE UP 27.5 sacks!!!!!!! Thats nearly 10 a season!!! In 07 he gave up 12!!! If he was a DE he would be in the Pro Bowl with that many sacks.

Penalties

In 07-09 the guy had 23 holding/falsestart penalties.

Now lets compare this to Max Starks
http://scores.nbcsports.msnbc.com/fb/pl ... sp?id=6834 (http://scores.nbcsports.msnbc.com/fb/playerstats.asp?id=6834)

Both players played in all games 07-09.

Starks in the same span gave up 14.5 sacks. Thats half!! Starks had only 3 flase starts in 3 years.(Kind of makes the whole crowd noise thing sound pretty stupid now dosent it. Maybe next you will tell us how its louder on the right side of the line.)

Theres the numbers. Not only is Willie not one of the best in the league. Hes numbers are downright awful.

JUST-PLAIN-NASTY
12-09-2011, 04:15 PM
http://scores.nbcsports.msnbc.com/fb/playerstats.asp?id=7880

Heres some stats for you guys on Willie Colon the worlds greatest tackle.

In 2007 through 2009 WILLIE GAVE UP 27.5 sacks!!!!!!! Thats nearly 10 a season!!! In 07 he gave up 12!!! If he was a DE he would be in the Pro Bowl with that many sacks.

Penalties

In 07-09 the guy had 23 holding/falsestart penalties.

Now lets compare this to Max Starks
http://scores.nbcsports.msnbc.com/fb/pl ... sp?id=6834 (http://scores.nbcsports.msnbc.com/fb/playerstats.asp?id=6834)

Both players played in all games 07-09.

Starks in the same span gave up 14.5 sacks. Thats half!! Starks had only 3 flase starts in 3 years.(Kind of makes the whole crowd noise thing sound pretty stupid now dosent it. Maybe next you will tell us how its louder on the right side of the line.)

Theres the numbers. Not only is Willie not one of the best in the league. Hes numbers are downright awful.

Wow...I never met someone who makes it so easy on me. You should read the links you post. Starks & Colon didn't start the same games over that span fool...Starks started 31 & Colon started 48. Let's look at 2009.
Starks-7 penalties-3 false starts-4 hold-10 sacks
Colon-6 penalties-4 false starts-2 hold-9 sacks

Lets compare to some "premier" OTs
Joe Thomas-6 penalties-4 false starts-2 hold-6 sacks
D Ferguson-8 penalties-5 false starts-2 hold-8 sacks
D Brown-7 penalties-6 false starts-0 hold-8 sacks

If you want to go to the next subject about false starts & noise...Keep looking at Gs & Cs stats and compare their false starts to the OTs. That is awesome...you gave me the resource to show my opinion is fact based on stats. You are like a little deer who just walked up to me in the woods and handed me the bullets.

I appreciate all the help in proving my point. You have been a big help.

7 UP
12-09-2011, 04:29 PM
Your pulling out only 09'. Show me where Joe thomas gave up 27.5 sacks in any 3 year span.

Look at Kemos #s from 08-10.
http://scores.nbcsports.msnbc.com/fb/pl ... sp?id=7380 (http://scores.nbcsports.msnbc.com/fb/playerstats.asp?id=7380)

Even the much criticized Kemo had far less sacks and penalties

JUST-PLAIN-NASTY
12-09-2011, 05:02 PM
Your pulling out only 09'. Show me where Joe thomas gave up 27.5 sacks in any 3 year span.

Look at Kemos #s from 08-10.
http://scores.nbcsports.msnbc.com/fb/pl ... sp?id=7380 (http://scores.nbcsports.msnbc.com/fb/playerstats.asp?id=7380)

Even the much criticized Kemo had far less sacks and penalties

I'm pulling out '09 because that was his last year he started 16 games and so did Starks. I also put those stats against the others in "09.

Again...Look at the Gs & Cs...And you will see the light about false start penalties.

You won't win any argument in the sack department with any OL playing in front of BB.

Big Ben is Big Ben...That's the only answer you need.

I don't know on what level you coach but hopefully you understand the tendancies and how you gameplan to it. BB is constantly gameplanned against by not letting him escape the pocket to his right where he is dangerous and has great ability and accuracy on the run when he tries to extend a play. I don't think I need to tell you what that means in relation to Colon's sacks numbers if you are what you say you are.

RuthlessBurgher
12-09-2011, 07:06 PM
Your pulling out only 09'. Show me where Joe thomas gave up 27.5 sacks in any 3 year span.

Look at Kemos #s from 08-10.
http://scores.nbcsports.msnbc.com/fb/pl ... sp?id=7380 (http://scores.nbcsports.msnbc.com/fb/playerstats.asp?id=7380)

Even the much criticized Kemo had far less sacks and penalties

You do realize that teams tend to get the majority of their sacks from an outside pass rush, not from the big uglies that clog the middle, right? If you think that Chris Kemoeatu is a better o-lineman than Willie Colon, I don't know what to tell you.

7 UP
12-09-2011, 08:44 PM
Lets just put it this way. All BS and name calling aside, the stats are the stats, and they dont lie. He allowed 27.5 sacks in 3 seasons and is among the league leaders in penalties. If thats what the two of you think makes a good tackle than so be it. Personally I think Colons upside is about the same as Trai Essex.

NJ-STEELER
12-10-2011, 11:59 PM
flozell was better then colon in the run game. great run blocker

a lil worse in pass pro.