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fezziwig
11-15-2011, 11:24 PM
On the radio today they were talking about Ziggy Hood and his lack luster performance this season. Does anyone agree with that or have any comments on that ?

I have to agree and mentioned earlier this season that Ziggy doesn't play like a third year guy that was a number one pick. I doubt he will ever get to the quality that Smith was in his hay day.

I would love to see Heyward in there given the chance over Ziggy because I think Heyward is going to be a good player for us. Ziggy IMHO seemed to do better last season than this season.
Maybe with Harrison back and Woodley back Ziggy will gain from that but to me, he's just an avergae player at that position.

Ziggy Should be making an impact at this stage or at least every so often. I just don't see him bringing much to the table.

papillon
11-15-2011, 11:53 PM
On the radio today they were talking about Ziggy Hood and his lack luster performance this season. Does anyone agree with that or have any comments on that ?

I have to agree and mentioned earlier this season that Ziggy doesn't play like a third year guy that was a number one pick. I doubt he will ever get to the quality that Smith was in his hay day.

I would love to see Heyward in there given the chance over Ziggy because I think Heyward is going to be a good player for us. Ziggy IMHO seemed to do better last season than this season.
Maybe with Harrison back and Woodley back Ziggy will gain from that but to me, he's just an avergae player at that position.

Ziggy Should be making an impact at this stage or at least every so often. I just don't see him bringing much to the table.

Aaron Smith wasn't all that in his third year and got better as he gained experience and strength. The run defense has suffered a bit, but last year's run defense was ridiculous. Were Steeler fans expecting the same dominating performance this year while injecting the defensive line with some young blood?

Pappy

Shoe
11-16-2011, 01:59 AM
On the radio today they were talking about Ziggy Hood and his lack luster performance this season. Does anyone agree with that or have any comments on that ?

I have to agree and mentioned earlier this season that Ziggy doesn't play like a third year guy that was a number one pick. I doubt he will ever get to the quality that Smith was in his hay day.

I would love to see Heyward in there given the chance over Ziggy because I think Heyward is going to be a good player for us. Ziggy IMHO seemed to do better last season than this season.
Maybe with Harrison back and Woodley back Ziggy will gain from that but to me, he's just an avergae player at that position.

Ziggy Should be making an impact at this stage or at least every so often. I just don't see him bringing much to the table.

Your expectation of him was all wrong, if you ever thought he would be anything but "just" a solid run-defense player. And for that matter, if you have high expectations of Cam Heyward (beyond what I just described for Hood), you're setting yourself up for disappointment again.

Both are just going to solid, tough guys... HOPEFULLy in the mold of Aaron Smith. Brett Keisel. Ray Seals. Gerald Wiliams. Keith Willis. These aren't 10-sack guys. They are 3-sack guys, who take on blockers, and play their assignments to a tee.

As for Hood, his insertion into the lineup has coincided with our defense looking better, more spry, more like Steeler defense. I'm happy with his performance, in that regard.

WindyCitySteel
11-16-2011, 08:33 AM
3-4 DE do more than "take on blockers". Smith racked up some nice tackle numbers in his prime. So did Richard Seymour. If you get stood up every play and rarely get to the ball carrier, it's a problem. The good ones can shed blocks, too, and get in the backfield.

Slapstick
11-16-2011, 08:45 AM
Steelers D-Linemen in the LeBeau scheme are 2-gap run defenders with the responsibility to hold the point and occupy two blockers...players in other 3-4 schemes are 1-gap defenders with the responsibility to get upfield...

Richard Seymour has never collected more than 8 sacks in a year and that only twice...

WindyCitySteel
11-16-2011, 09:36 AM
Steelers D-Linemen in the LeBeau scheme are 2-gap run defenders with the responsibility to hold the point and occupy two blockers...players in other 3-4 schemes are 1-gap defenders with the responsibility to get upfield...

Richard Seymour has never collected more than 8 sacks in a year and that only twice...

I'm talking about tackles on running plays. Their job isn't solely to hold up two guys so the LBs are clean. Aaron Smith had years of 70+ tackles.

And how do you occupy two blockers when they're zone blocking, pulling, etc.? It's not like electric football where everyone just slams into the line every play.

Slapstick
11-16-2011, 10:45 AM
Aaron Smith had one year of 70 tackles and no years of 70+ tackles...

SteelerNation1
11-16-2011, 10:54 AM
Ziggy was dominant down the stretch last season and has been below the line so far in 2011. He was getting pressure and sacks on 1st and 2nd down late last yr. Not happening this yr. Hopefully with the return of Wood, he'll step it up a bit.

Shoe
11-16-2011, 11:52 AM
3-4 DE do more than "take on blockers". Smith racked up some nice tackle numbers in his prime. So did Richard Seymour. If you get stood up every play and rarely get to the ball carrier, it's a problem. The good ones can shed blocks, too, and get in the backfield.

Of course they did. Look, I never said you can't distinguish yourself in this scheme. But you are comparing Ziggy to better football players. Seymour was a top 10 pick based on his physical ability. Aaron Smith is a much better football player and athlete than Hood.

I made comparisons to Steelers of the past. and I stand by it. Keith Willis is a pretty good comparison I think. He was a good player, but certainly no "difference-maker". I see Hood much the same, and Heyward will probably be the same kind of player (though if I had to say, he probably has more potential based a lot on his ranginess (vs. Hood's more stout physique).

NJ-STEELER
11-16-2011, 06:00 PM
If we're not to expect decent sack numbers for their position then IMO it was a mistake taking these guys in the 1st round. If we wanted run stutters. Those guy can be found later and developed. Just look at our track record with smith, keisel, kimo (run of the mill free agent)

Chadman
11-16-2011, 06:31 PM
Stats don't really fit for 3-4 D-line players, so any statistical relevence for Hood is void as far as I'm concerned.

The run defence with Aaron Smith in earlier this year was bad. Since Hood's inclusion, it's improved. But while Hood's been in, Farrior, Woodley & Harrison have missed time. The base 7 for the Steelers have been flux all season & it's hard to really guage how well any individual is playing- after all, because they work as a unit, if one member of the unit doesn't play at the necessary level, it will impact across the rest of the unit as they try to compensate.

I don't think Hood has been a problem. At least, not a noticable problem. Aaron Smith WAS a notable problem as he was getting pushed around easily. I think it also was influencing Hampton's play early too as he looked to be struggling. Not so much now though.

Problem is, as a unit, the Steelers ran the risk over the last few years of there being a 'noticable decline' in the level of play as they refused to inject young players into the rotation along the front 3, certainly, and to a lesser degree, the front 7. I think the inclusion of Hood & Heyward has come just in time, as I think we are now seeing the decline of some of our best players for the last 5-10 years.

Farrior, Hampton, Keisel & Harrison are all 'aged' players. As long as they play significant roles in the starting front 7, we will run the risk of the D getting old- at least, so long as suitable young replacements are not on the roster & getting some playing time. Keisel looks to have his replacement in Heyward onboard, so we have him covered. The other 3, however, do not have a ready made replacement sitting behind them- and this is something the Steelers will need to address moving forward, or face another Aaron Smith Version 2011...

BURGH86STEEL
11-16-2011, 09:05 PM
If we're not to expect decent sack numbers for their position then IMO it was a mistake taking these guys in the 1st round. If we wanted run stutters. Those guy can be found later and developed. Just look at our track record with smith, keisel, kimo (run of the mill free agent)
It's more difficult to find guys to play 3-4 DE now then it was several years ago. More teams play the 3-4 or variations of the defense then in the past. Smith and Keisel were players that were drafted later because less teams ran the 3-4 defense.

Shoe
11-16-2011, 10:43 PM
If we're not to expect decent sack numbers for their position then IMO it was a mistake taking these guys in the 1st round. If we wanted run stutters. Those guy can be found later and developed. Just look at our track record with smith, keisel, kimo (run of the mill free agent)

Well, that's subjective and probably a decent amount of credence to your opinion. There are "1st round" talents that can make that sort of impact as a 5-technique DE. It's not that easy (i.e. just tie up blockers). And BURGH86STEEL's comment is relevant as well: with so many other teams trying to copy our scheme, the premium for 5-technique Ends is higher.

NJ-STEELER
11-17-2011, 12:29 AM
McClendon is another guy that's gotten into the rotation and he went undrafted

Pretty sure they like Bryant and it's the 2nd time they have had woods on the PS. all these guys were available to the rest of the leAgue.
Even the chavis kid looked decent in preseason before they tried to move him to TE DUE To having enough DL

These are the guys I don't really expect to see sacks/pressures... Not the 1st round picks

Slapstick
11-17-2011, 09:35 AM
This particular 3-4 scheme isn't designed for DEs to get copious amounts of sacks...it just isn't...

As to why the Steelers felt the need to draft Hood and Heyward in round 1 as opposed to looking for DE later in the draft, I suppose you would have to ask them...

WindyCitySteel
11-17-2011, 09:48 AM
Ziggy has started 8 games, played in 10. He has 6 solo tackles. And it's not because he's single-handedly absorbing a phalanx of offensive linemen on every snap. He's having trouble getting off of blocks and has taken a step back from last year's performance.

fezziwig
11-17-2011, 06:03 PM
How do you guys feel about Ziggy and his game against the run ? I remember when Smith would go out with injury and the offenses seemed like they could run on us then.
I realize our DE are not all about the sacks but, they should be disrupting and Ziggy to me, is not getting that done neither.

StarSpangledSteeler
11-17-2011, 08:31 PM
This particular 3-4 scheme isn't designed for DEs to get copious amounts of sacks...it just isn't...

As to why the Steelers felt the need to draft Hood and Heyward in round 1 as opposed to looking for DE later in the draft, I suppose you would have to ask them...


I love that you just used the word "copious" on a football forum.

StarSpangledSteeler
11-17-2011, 08:38 PM
The crazy thing to me is... We have a blueprint 3-4 DE in Aaron Smith and yet we keep drafting/signing DE's that don't really resemble him. You need to be 6'5"+ with really long arms to get off some of these blocks at an elite level. I realize that Heyward and Keisel may have that height but I don't see the length and hand fighting technique. I certainly don't see it in Ziggy. But the bigger deal to me is the wide base and anchor. Aaron Smith (in his prime) held the point and did not get moved. Even against double teams. I don't see that in any of our current DE's either. Maybe I'm being too critical... but still.

SteelTorch
11-17-2011, 09:04 PM
The crazy thing to me is... We have a blueprint 3-4 DE in Aaron Smith and yet we keep drafting/signing DE's that don't really resemble him. You need to be 6'5"+ with really long arms to get off some of these blocks at an elite level. I realize that Heyward and Keisel may have that height but I don't see the length and hand fighting technique. I certainly don't see it in Ziggy. But the bigger deal to me is the wide base and anchor. Aaron Smith (in his prime) held the point and did not get moved. Even against double teams. I don't see that in any of our current DE's either. Maybe I'm being too critical... but still.
Um...I think Keisel's arm length is fine. Have you seen how many passes he bats down a season??

That said, I like Ziggy. His play may not be at the same level it was last year, but I think he is/will be a great addition to this defense. A lot of people were bashing Timmons his first couple years, and look how that turned out.

fezziwig
11-17-2011, 10:11 PM
I'm still bashing Timmons. The guy shows me nothing or at least not number one draft status or the money he is making. That guy has been taken along slowly, teaching him whatever because it has taken him what, three years to become a starter. To me he's a waste of a number one pick, waste of good money and not as good as many would like to believe.

Correct me if I'm wrong, isn't he Tomlins first number one pick with Woodley being his first number two pick ?
Woodley arrived a long time ago and Timmons is still waiting on the bus.

NJ-STEELER
11-17-2011, 11:12 PM
I'm still bashing Timmons. The guy shows me nothing or at least not number one draft status or the money he is making. That guy has been taken along slowly, teaching him whatever because it has taken him what, three years to become a starter. To me he's a waste of a number one pick, waste of good money and not as good as many would like to believe.

Correct me if I'm wrong, isn't he Tomlins first number one pick with Woodley being his first number two pick ?
Woodley arrived a long time ago and Timmons is still waiting on the bus.

he's out performed him since day 1 and yet there were some before the season saying if we could only sign 1 guy, to sign timmons :shock:

WindyCitySteel
11-17-2011, 11:26 PM
Woodley was a freaking steal in the 2nd round. No idea why he dropped so far.

Heyward is cut from the same cloth. Tough, high-motor football player at a big program.

fezziwig
11-17-2011, 11:55 PM
The little bit of time that I seen Heyward compared to the little bit of time that I seen Ziggy in his rookie year shows to me that Heyward is a better pick. I don't know if such a small glimps will tell the future for either but, Hood isn't nothing to write home about.

Steelerphile
11-18-2011, 07:08 AM
Ziggy Hood played very well last season. There was no dropoff at all when Aaron Smith went down. I might even say the defense was at it's traditional run-stopping best last season. Again this year, Smith was not making much of a impact even before he went down with injury. I think Hood was out playing him.

I'm not that concerned with Hood. He's strong and has a great work ethic and attitude. I really am not sure I am in agreement that he is having a poor season in 2011, since 3-4 lineman generally eat up blockers and don't make a lot of individual plays.

After a slow start, the defense overall is still ranking high. I think No. 2 and their ranking against the run is better now.

Now Timmons is another story. I thought he played close to a probowl level last season. But he has been an average linebacker this year. I am not seeing that burst of speed that separated him before. He has no sacks, 1 int and his tackle numbers are low. He doesn't seem that strong.

When they signed him, I thought it was a good move. I've seen talent in him before, as has the organization. If he had played all throughout his career like this year. They would have never given him that money. I hope this is a blip.

Slapstick
11-18-2011, 09:35 AM
Timmons played almost half of this season-to-date out of position...

He should be back at the mack for the last 6 games of the season...if he can play up to the level he showed last year during that time, life will be good for Steeler fans...

steelz09
11-18-2011, 01:42 PM
Timmons lack luster performance at OLB / ILB, etc is my concern. I want to see those splash plays! Yes, he has a INT this season, a ball that fell right into his hands.

I want to see him fill the gap like a ILB is supposed to do on a run play instead of racking up all his tackle statistics when the guys are 4-5 or more yards past the line of scrimmage

fezziwig
11-18-2011, 02:14 PM
Woodley was a freaking steal in the 2nd round. No idea why he dropped so far.

Heyward is cut from the same cloth. Tough, high-motor football player at a big program.


Brown, Sanders and Wallace were also steals.

steelsnis
11-18-2011, 03:05 PM
Timmons lack luster performance at OLB / ILB, etc is my concern. I want to see those splash plays! Yes, he has a INT this season, a ball that fell right into his hands.

I want to see him fill the gap like a ILB is supposed to do on a run play instead of racking up all his tackle statistics when the guys are 4-5 or more yards past the line of scrimmage


See, I'm not sure I get this criticism. No one was criticizing Timmons play last year when he led the team in tackles and was a dominant inside backer.

His versatility has actually hurt his indivual performance, IMO. This year, he's literally bounced back and forth between positions in nearly every game, sometimes multiple times during the same game! He's literally played all 4 LB positions at some point this season.

Like was stated above, get Harrison and Woodley both back healthy and Timmons settled back inside and watch the numbers pick up.

Steelerphile
11-18-2011, 09:27 PM
The Hood critics should watch the segment with Hood breaking down plays on NFL network. The man knows exactly what he is doing. I don't think a lot of people watching him actually do. He is supposed to take on blockers and let someone else come free and make the play. He is actually playing well.

NJ-STEELER
11-18-2011, 10:44 PM
He is supposed to take on blockers and let someone else come free and make the play. He is actually playing well.

which brings us back to my question


do we really need #1 draft picks on the DL to do that

we haven't in the past

JDSteeler
11-19-2011, 03:52 AM
On the radio today they were talking about Ziggy Hood and his lack luster performance this season. Does anyone agree with that or have any comments on that ?

I have to agree and mentioned earlier this season that Ziggy doesn't play like a third year guy that was a number one pick. I doubt he will ever get to the quality that Smith was in his hay day.

I would love to see Heyward in there given the chance over Ziggy because I think Heyward is going to be a good player for us. Ziggy IMHO seemed to do better last season than this season.
Maybe with Harrison back and Woodley back Ziggy will gain from that but to me, he's just an avergae player at that position.

Ziggy Should be making an impact at this stage or at least every so often. I just don't see him bringing much to the table.

I seem to remember getting REAMED on this board for calling Hood a "BUST"...

He came on late last year, but he has regressed again, and I might have to bring
up the BUST comments again...

He really has no moves, and plays patty-cake with the O-linemen...

JD

Steelerphile
11-19-2011, 06:28 AM
He is supposed to take on blockers and let someone else come free and make the play. He is actually playing well.

which brings us back to my question


do we really need #1 draft picks on the DL to do that

we haven't in the past

It is always possible to get the rare player in the some round other than the 1st round to do something. But I would really encourage you to watch the segment on NFL network with Hood. They play a team concept and are not as concerned with one individual starring as a fan is. The defense is doing well overall. Ranked #2 overall and now #7 against the run. At the beginning of the year, they were as low as #25.

Hood is far from a bust. I vehemently disagree. Now Daryl Sims, Huey Richadson and Jamain Stephens are busts. Hood is vastly better player than any of them.

hawaiiansteel
11-19-2011, 03:20 PM
All “Had a Bad Day” Team, Week 10

November 16th, 2011
by Khaled Elsayed - Profootballfocus


Sometimes there are performances that are so bad, you know as soon as you watch a game that a guy will be making this team. Which is why this opening is dedicated to the performance of Brandyn Dombrowski, who, by picking up the second-lowest grade we have ever given (he already owns the first), made my life a lot easier.

Still, this team isn’t just about those guys who have the ultimate bad day, it’s about holding those to account who think they have got away with it. That might be a tight end who forgot how to block, or a defensive end who generated no pressure. It doesn’t matter – if they had a bad day they’re in contention.

So let me introduce a bunch of guys who just couldn’t cut it in week 10. Read on if you want to see All-Pros, rookies, and … well, The Dombrowski, get their due.

OFFENSE

Quarterback: Joe Flacco, BAL (-3.4)

For some reason the Ravens decided to throw 52 times. Are you kidding me? Flacco responded by almost throwing a pick-six, and then not seeing the underneath coverage that tipped a ball into the arms of David Hawthorne. Then there were the overthrows, not good at all.

Running Back: Mario Barber, CHI (-1.3)

Barber wasn’t terrible, but in a decent week for running backs his 2.1 yards per rush, and 1.3 yards per rush after contact make him the default option.

Fullback: Mike Cox, ATL (-1.9)

Cox can prevent his coach making a bad decision by both not fumbling the ball out of bounds, and getting upfield to the first down marker before making his cut. His blocking wasn’t as great as the commentators wanted you to believe either.

Tight End: Billy Bajema, SL (-6.0)

You’re a blocking tight end, you earn a -5.4 grade for that alone. Yep you’re going to make this team and somehow keep Anthony McCoy out of my crosshairs.

Wide Receivers: Roddy White, ATL (-5.4) and Jeremy Maclin, PHI (-2.6)

White did pick up 62 yards. He also dropped two passes, committed three penalties and was poor with his run blocking. That’s letting your team down, while Maclin had just the two catches or six yards and dropped a pass. He didn’t step up like the Eagles had hoped for.

Tackles: Brandyn Dombrowski, SD (-13.1) and Barry Richardson, KC (-6.6)

Some advice for Norv Turner. Never play Dombrowski when the opposition has any sort of speed rusher. Kamerion Wimbley abused him with the Charger giving up an incredible four sacks, one hit and nine pressures. Richardson wasn’t quite as bad but still got taken to the woodshed by Von Miller.

Guards: Tyronne Green, SD (-6.7) and Chris Chester, WAS (-3.9)

Green narrowly beats out David Diehl after the hammering he took at the hands of the Raiders. On the right side Chester is proving quite the waste of money for the Redskins right now.

Center: David Baas, NYG (-3.3)

He got his QB drilled twice and was poor with his run blocking. Baas was meant to stabilize the center spot. Imagine that.


DEFENSE

4-3 Defensive Front

Defensive Ends: Raheem Brock, SEA (-3.9) and Adrian Clayborn, TB (-3.7)

Call me crazy, but I like my defensive ends to get pressure. Brock, in addition to giving up a penalty, generated just the one as he was kept largely in check. Clayborn struggled with the Texans running the ball so much, and it seemed to slow him down when he was rushing the passer. That and two penalties, earn a spot on this team.

Defensive Tackles: Vince Wilfork, NE (-3.5) and Dwan Edwards, BUF (-3.3)

Safe to say this is the worst year in the career of Vince Wilfork. He hasn’t looked anything like the player that was so dominant for so long and continued that trend against the Jets. Edwards got handled by the left side of the Cowboys’ line, and did very little to slow DeMarco Murray.

Linebackers: Scott Shanle (-6.3), JoLunn Dunbar (-4.9) and Jonathan Casillas (-3.7), NO

They were so bad they almost made me wish to see Jonathan Vilma on the field. Remarkable that the Saints can win games with such terrible performances from their linebackers.

3-4 Defensive Front

Defensive Line: Ziggy Hood, PIT (-3.6), B.J. Raji, GB (-3.9) and Kendall Langford, MIA (-2.9)

Ziggy Hood, you bore me. Once again the former first-rounder fails to make an impression in a Steelers game. Langford had similar problems, though he did add a defensive stop (and a missed tackle) to his stat sheet. After the first quarter of the season there hasn’t been a more disappointing player than B.J. Raji. Wasn’t he meant to dominate?

Outside Linebackers: Brian Orakpo, WAS (-2.9) and James Harrison, PIT (-2.4)

Two players that normally grade so well had a tough Sunday. Orakpo found a Jake Long returning to form, while Harrison appears to have had a rare off day. First time he’s ever made this team.

Inside Linebackers: Na’il Diggs, SD (-3.1) and Sean Lee, DAL (-3.1)

Neither man should really be on the field, though for very different reasons. Diggs just isn’t talented enough, while Lee’s injury prevents him playing in the manner that made him such a standout in the first half of the season. No excuses in this team though, so both make it.

Cornerbacks: Drayton Florence, BUF (-3.1) and Quentin Jammer, SD (-1.6)

Both our cornerbacks gave up two touchdowns to earn their spot on this team. That will always land you on our “Bad Day-dar”.

Safeties: Eric Smith, NYJ (-5.7) and Reed Doughty, WAS (-4.1)

Might be an idea not to match Smith up with Rob Gronkowski in future. Just doesn’t have the tools to cope with him. We must have cursed Doughty with our praise of him in 2009 – he hasn’t been so good since then.

http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/20 ... m-week-10/ (http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2011/11/16/all-had-a-bad-day-team-week-10/)

NJ-STEELER
11-20-2011, 01:01 PM
He is supposed to take on blockers and let someone else come free and make the play. He is actually playing well.

which brings us back to my question


do we really need #1 draft picks on the DL to do that

we haven't in the past

It is always possible to get the rare player in the some round other than the 1st round to do something. But I would really encourage you to watch the segment on NFL network with Hood. They play a team concept and are not as concerned with one individual starring as a fan is. The defense is doing well overall. Ranked #2 overall and now #7 against the run. At the beginning of the year, they were as low as #25.

Hood is far from a bust. I vehemently disagree. Now Daryl Sims, Huey Richadson and Jamain Stephens are busts. Hood is vastly better player than any of them.


Oh, I didn't call him a bust. Just saying if we're picking DL that high. I'd like to see more QB sacks and pressures

NJ-STEELER
11-20-2011, 01:02 PM
He is supposed to take on blockers and let someone else come free and make the play. He is actually playing well.

which brings us back to my question


do we really need #1 draft picks on the DL to do that

we haven't in the past

It is always possible to get the rare player in the some round other than the 1st round to do something. But I would really encourage you to watch the segment on NFL network with Hood. They play a team concept and are not as concerned with one individual starring as a fan is. The defense is doing well overall. Ranked #2 overall and now #7 against the run. At the beginning of the year, they were as low as #25.

Hood is far from a bust. I vehemently disagree. Now Daryl Sims, Huey Richadson and Jamain Stephens are busts. Hood is vastly better player than any of them.


Oh, I didn't call him a bust. Just saying if we're picking DL that high. I'd like to see more QB sacks and pressures because I believe you can find the 2 gap run stoppers later in the draft

Steelerphile
11-20-2011, 05:25 PM
[quote=Steelerphile] He is supposed to take on blockers and let someone else come free and make the play. He is actually playing well.

which brings us back to my question


do we really need #1 draft picks on the DL to do that

we haven't in the past

It is always possible to get the rare player in the some round other than the 1st round to do something. But I would really encourage you to watch the segment on NFL network with Hood. They play a team concept and are not as concerned with one individual starring as a fan is. The defense is doing well overall. Ranked #2 overall and now #7 against the run. At the beginning of the year, they were as low as #25.

Hood is far from a bust. I vehemently disagree. Now Daryl Sims, Huey Richadson and Jamain Stephens are busts. Hood is vastly better player than any of them.


Oh, I didn't call him a bust. Just saying if we're picking DL that high. I'd like to see more QB sacks and pressures because I believe you can find the 2 gap run stoppers later in the draft[/quote:17vp03l6]

If you go into the draft thinking we can wait until the 4th round to start drafting DL because they got Aaron Smith in the 4th round, you can miss the boat. Smith is that rare player. The Steelers have drafted other lineman 4th round and later who never panned out at all.

So I think you draft according to the board and if a DLineman is there in the 1st round you take him. The reason I wanted you to watch the NFL segment on Hood is because Hood explains and illustrates that there are plays where he could go after the QB for sacks, but he doesn't because he stays within the framework of the defense. So I'm sure he could have more sacks and pressures than he does. He has enough ability to, but he is not an ego-driven player and right now he feels he is doing right by being conservative and playing containment.

There may be a time when he feels as though he can take more on himself to get the QB, or the coaches might encourage him to do that more.

But I for one am pleased with Hood. He is a really good young man and I think the defense overall is doing well now and that is really what matters the most.

Shoe
11-20-2011, 05:39 PM
If you go into the draft thinking we can wait until the 4th round to start drafting DL because they got Aaron Smith in the 4th round, you can miss the boat. Smith is that rare player. The Steelers have drafted other lineman 4th round and later who never panned out at all.

So I think you draft according to the board and if a DLineman is there in the 1st round you take him. The reason I wanted you to watch the NFL segment on Hood is because Hood explains and illustrates that there are plays where he could go after the QB for sacks, but he doesn't because he stays within the framework of the defense. So I'm sure he could have more sacks and pressures than he does. He has enough ability to, but he is not an ego-driven player and right now he feels he is doing right by being conservative and playing containment.

There may be a time when he feels as though he can take more on himself to get the QB, or the coaches might encourage him to do that more.

But I for one am pleased with Hood. He is a really good young man and I think the defense overall is doing well now and that is really what matters the most.

I agree with you that it's silly to throw dirt on a player who's been a starter for two years on a top 2 ranked defense, and who's coincidental insertion into the lineup seemed to coincide with our defense coming together... AND I agree that it's way too simplistic to think it's a position that you can "find guys" in the later rounds because it's not a worthy position.

But I also will nitpick your comment a little. Yes--it is his job to occupy blockers as much and more than it is to make plays himself. But it's a bit of excuse making, by him and anyone else, that he hasn't made any (in terms of stats). You put Suh in his spot, and I guarantee Suh has some numbers. Hood simply is not that physically talented. He's just a solid football player. Even in a system that would ideally suit a guy like Hood (Warren Sapp role), I think Hood is a 4-6 sack a season kinda guy.

Our defense gives DL a bit of scapegoating to guys who can't make plays.

Slapstick
11-21-2011, 09:36 AM
You put Suh in his spot, and I guarantee Suh has some numbers. Hood simply is not that physically talented. He's just a solid football player. Even in a system that would ideally suit a guy like Hood (Warren Sapp role), I think Hood is a 4-6 sack a season kinda guy.

Our defense gives DL a bit of scapegoating to guys who can't make plays.

Suh was drafted #2 overall...Ziggy was drafted #32 overall...

Part of the reason that the Steelers draft at #32 and not #2 is because players like Ziggy do their jobs at a high level...

Personally, I think if you put Ziggy in Suh's position, his stats would look better...

feltdizz
11-21-2011, 09:41 AM
You put Suh in his spot, and I guarantee Suh has some numbers. Hood simply is not that physically talented. He's just a solid football player. Even in a system that would ideally suit a guy like Hood (Warren Sapp role), I think Hood is a 4-6 sack a season kinda guy.

Our defense gives DL a bit of scapegoating to guys who can't make plays.

Suh was drafted #2 overall...Ziggy was drafted #32 overall...

Part of the reason that the Steelers draft at #32 and not #2 is because players like Ziggy do their jobs at a high level...

Personally, I think if you put Ziggy in Suh's position, his stats would look better...

No, Ziggy isn't on Suh's level.

Our DL's aren't supposed to make a ton of plays... that's what the LB's are for. How many 3-4 DL's are putting up a high number of sacks? I don't think the number is that high.

Oviedo
11-21-2011, 10:29 AM
You put Suh in his spot, and I guarantee Suh has some numbers. Hood simply is not that physically talented. He's just a solid football player. Even in a system that would ideally suit a guy like Hood (Warren Sapp role), I think Hood is a 4-6 sack a season kinda guy.

Our defense gives DL a bit of scapegoating to guys who can't make plays.

Suh was drafted #2 overall...Ziggy was drafted #32 overall...

Part of the reason that the Steelers draft at #32 and not #2 is because players like Ziggy do their jobs at a high level...

Personally, I think if you put Ziggy in Suh's position, his stats would look better...

Ziggy is a pentrating DT who can get after the QB. That was his strength in college. LeBeau has turned him into a hold the man in front of you DE.

Put Ziggy on the inside in a 4-3 and I think you would see him excel. LeBeau has him in a role that does not play to his strengths.

steelz09
11-21-2011, 11:05 AM
Timmons lack luster performance at OLB / ILB, etc is my concern. I want to see those splash plays! Yes, he has a INT this season, a ball that fell right into his hands.

I want to see him fill the gap like a ILB is supposed to do on a run play instead of racking up all his tackle statistics when the guys are 4-5 or more yards past the line of scrimmage


See, I'm not sure I get this criticism. No one was criticizing Timmons play last year when he led the team in tackles and was a dominant inside backer.

His versatility has actually hurt his indivual performance, IMO. This year, he's literally bounced back and forth between positions in nearly every game, sometimes multiple times during the same game! He's literally played all 4 LB positions at some point this season.

Like was stated above, get Harrison and Woodley both back healthy and Timmons settled back inside and watch the numbers pick up.

Actually, I said the same thing last year when he had all those tackles. But I'm not going to highjack this thread :) because I could go on and on and on about this...

BURGH86STEEL
11-21-2011, 11:13 AM
The Hood critics should watch the segment with Hood breaking down plays on NFL network. The man knows exactly what he is doing. I don't think a lot of people watching him actually do. He is supposed to take on blockers and let someone else come free and make the play. He is actually playing well.

Arm chair GM's and coaches know more.

steelz09
11-21-2011, 11:56 AM
The Hood critics should watch the segment with Hood breaking down plays on NFL network. The man knows exactly what he is doing. I don't think a lot of people watching him actually do. He is supposed to take on blockers and let someone else come free and make the play. He is actually playing well.

Arm chair GM's and coaches know more.

Aren't we all arm chair GM's and coaches? lol. That's a beauty of a forum. To give props, analyze, criticize and flat out complain about our team.

Slapstick
11-21-2011, 12:32 PM
No, Ziggy isn't on Suh's level.

I agree...that's why I posted this:


Suh was drafted #2 overall...Ziggy was drafted #32 overall...

Ziggy is not the physical freak that Suh is...few players are...

I'm merely saying that, if people are looking for Ziggy to post big stats, they will be disappointed until he plays in a defense that allows him to do so...

Suh does...

BURGH86STEEL
11-21-2011, 06:00 PM
The Hood critics should watch the segment with Hood breaking down plays on NFL network. The man knows exactly what he is doing. I don't think a lot of people watching him actually do. He is supposed to take on blockers and let someone else come free and make the play. He is actually playing well.

Arm chair GM's and coaches know more.

Aren't we all arm chair GM's and coaches? lol. That's a beauty of a forum. To give props, analyze, criticize and flat out complain about our team.
No, I am not and arm chair GM or coach. My point was fans believe they know more then the coaches and players. Very little solid analysis can be provide by fans by simply watching the games live. Fans also don't know player's responsibilities or what players were asked to do on certain plays. Maybe it appeared there were plays that Hood or certain players weren't doing their jobs. Players could had been doing what the coaches asked. We don't know because we don't know the inner workings.

grotonsteel
11-21-2011, 07:10 PM
No, Ziggy isn't on Suh's level.

I agree...that's why I posted this:


Suh was drafted #2 overall...Ziggy was drafted #32 overall...

Ziggy is not the physical freak that Suh is...few players are...

I'm merely saying that, if people are looking for Ziggy to post big stats, they will be disappointed until he plays in a defense that allows him to do so...

Suh does...


Well then this raises a question why are we drafting DE so high in the draft if they are not suppose to get even 5 sacks in a NFL season.

Is there a stat for QB pressure? If so it would be interesting to see Hood's number.

I thought Ziggy Hood played well towards the end last season. I don't think he is playing at that level.

Slapstick
11-21-2011, 08:28 PM
Well then this raises a question why are we drafting DE so high in the draft if they are not suppose to get even 5 sacks in a NFL season.

Perhaps it is because the Steelers do not necessarily look for large sack numbers in their DEs...maybe they look for a player to fit their defense and Hood was the best player overall for that particular position on need when they drafted...

Shoe
11-21-2011, 08:42 PM
My point in bringing up Suh's name in this was to point out that it's a bit of a scapegoat, to blame lack of numbers on the scheme. Ziggy and Ziggy supporters, cite the scheme as the reason he has no numbers to speak of... and while it's is partly true, the fact is that it's scapegoating. He should still be able to put up certain numbers (e.g. 3 sacks by now, x pressures, etc.)

It's taking a side track here, because I don't think he's playing badly. I'm fine with his performance, because the defense has shown to be more solid than it was early on... and that coincided with his insertion.

I just don't want him to get a pass for the rest of his career, that he should never get stats. He should produce at a certain level... and it's higher than it currently is.

Chavezz
11-21-2011, 09:00 PM
If we're not to expect decent sack numbers for their position then IMO it was a mistake taking these guys in the 1st round. If we wanted run stutters. Those guy can be found later and developed. Just look at our track record with smith, keisel, kimo (run of the mill free agent)
It's more difficult to find guys to play 3-4 DE now then it was several years ago. More teams play the 3-4 or variations of the defense then in the past. Smith and Keisel were players that were drafted later because less teams ran the 3-4 defense.

I'm glad you pointed this out. There are several posters that think this is 2000 and there are only 2-3 teams playing the 34 defense.

I think I read somewhere that almost half the teams are now either playing predominately a 34D or at least a significant portion of their base defense in a 34.

Those 34 olb's and DE's that were just sitting out there for us to take in the late rounds are now getting drafted in the 1st 3 rounds. For our front 7 to get younger and maintain the talent we've come to expect, we have to invest premium choices.

steelz09
11-21-2011, 09:30 PM
The Hood critics should watch the segment with Hood breaking down plays on NFL network. The man knows exactly what he is doing. I don't think a lot of people watching him actually do. He is supposed to take on blockers and let someone else come free and make the play. He is actually playing well.

Arm chair GM's and coaches know more.

Aren't we all arm chair GM's and coaches? lol. That's a beauty of a forum. To give props, analyze, criticize and flat out complain about our team.
No, I am not and arm chair GM or coach. My point was fans believe they know more then the coaches and players. Very little solid analysis can be provide by fans by simply watching the games live. Fans also don't know player's responsibilities or what players were asked to do on certain plays. Maybe it appeared there were plays that Hood or certain players weren't doing their jobs. Players could had been doing what the coaches asked. We don't know because we don't know the inner workings.


Oh, that's right... now I remember. Your the one. Knowledgable fans can't critique players watching the game live. please :roll: Sorry dude, I don't buy it...

While I agree that you may not know a players assignment, I'm pretty sure I can intelligently critique just about any player/position on the Steelers. If you know technique, schemes, you can analyze a player pretty easily. Learn technique, schemes, fundamentals, play the game and most importantly, watch the game with your eyes open and you'll have an easier time.

Slapstick
11-21-2011, 11:46 PM
My point in bringing up Suh's name in this was to point out that it's a bit of a scapegoat, to blame lack of numbers on the scheme. Ziggy and Ziggy supporters, cite the scheme as the reason he has no numbers to speak of... and while it's is partly true, the fact is that it's scapegoating. He should still be able to put up certain numbers (e.g. 3 sacks by now, x pressures, etc.)

It's taking a side track here, because I don't think he's playing badly. I'm fine with his performance, because the defense has shown to be more solid than it was early on... and that coincided with his insertion.

I just don't want him to get a pass for the rest of his career, that he should never get stats. He should produce at a certain level... and it's higher than it currently is.

And that's where we differ...I don't give a crap about stats as I don't think that they are always a good barometer of a player's performance...particularly in the case of a 3-4 DL in LeBeau's ZB scheme...

JUST-PLAIN-NASTY
11-22-2011, 10:06 AM
There is nothing wrong with Hood. There really isn't another 3-4 DE in the league you could try to compare him to except maybe Keisel and even then Keisel isn't playing strong side. The problem with the run defense it right down the middle. It isn't what we are used to because Hampton & Farrior aren't what they used to be. Hampton has tailed but he still is very good. Farrior isn't better than Foote anymore...And Foote is only a support type of LB so that tells you everything you need to know. Foote didn't explode after he left or find the fountain of youth. Instincts can only get you bye for so long. Eventually, the athleticism has to be a factor. They will be very good when Woodley & Harrison see the field again together. But don't kid yourself folks....You will not see the dominating run defense until someone else lines up inside next to Timmons (Step one next year) and soon to follow...Hampton's replacement is found. Might get another year out of Hampton to split time and groom the rookie in 2012....But ILB will need to be addressed. There is some real quality depth in the young players in McClendon, Woods, and Sylvester...But I don't see any indication right now that they are long term starting replacements to Hampton & Farrior/Foote. Come draft 2012...I expect both positions to be addressed in early rounds if possible.

SteelTorch
11-22-2011, 10:48 AM
The Hood critics should watch the segment with Hood breaking down plays on NFL network. The man knows exactly what he is doing. I don't think a lot of people watching him actually do. He is supposed to take on blockers and let someone else come free and make the play. He is actually playing well.

Arm chair GM's and coaches know more.

Aren't we all arm chair GM's and coaches? lol. That's a beauty of a forum. To give props, analyze, criticize and flat out complain about our team.
No, I am not and arm chair GM or coach. My point was fans believe they know more then the coaches and players. Very little solid analysis can be provide by fans by simply watching the games live. Fans also don't know player's responsibilities or what players were asked to do on certain plays. Maybe it appeared there were plays that Hood or certain players weren't doing their jobs. Players could had been doing what the coaches asked. We don't know because we don't know the inner workings.
We fans can only go by what works and what doesn't. And when something clearly doesn't work, and hasn't for a long time, it doesn't take a professional to figure out that something needs to be changed. :roll:

feltdizz
11-22-2011, 11:02 AM
what isn't working? Is Hood getting gashed? Is he a weak link?

just asking because right now it sounds like some fans think Hood isn't doing his job.

grotonsteel
11-22-2011, 01:20 PM
what isn't working? Is Hood getting gashed? Is he a weak link?

just asking because right now it sounds like some fans think Hood isn't doing his job.


I think its difficult to evaluate a DLineman. We don't know what are Ziggy's assignment.

When Ziggy was drafted i thought he might be able to create havoc among the blockers. Put more pressure on the QB on passing down. But right now i am not seeing it.

Maybe his assignment is to just occupy the blockers but then do we need to spend a first RD pick on such DE?

I believe Ziggy is a far better pick at 32 than Glen dorsey or jackson from KC or Adam C of St Louis.

Slapstick
11-22-2011, 03:54 PM
Maybe his assignment is to just occupy the blockers but then do we need to spend a first RD pick on such DE?

I guess it depends on whether or not you want your defense to work...

fezziwig
11-22-2011, 03:58 PM
Maybe it's just me but I figured a number one pick would have his name called out more with valuable plays such as more disruption or to see him knife in there sometimes with blowing up a run play or a sack or some balls knocked down.
i'll admit, I'm not in tune to the workings of proffesional football as many of you guys so, I judge things differently.

BURGH86STEEL
11-22-2011, 06:13 PM
The Hood critics should watch the segment with Hood breaking down plays on NFL network. The man knows exactly what he is doing. I don't think a lot of people watching him actually do. He is supposed to take on blockers and let someone else come free and make the play. He is actually playing well.

Arm chair GM's and coaches know more.

Aren't we all arm chair GM's and coaches? lol. That's a beauty of a forum. To give props, analyze, criticize and flat out complain about our team.
No, I am not and arm chair GM or coach. My point was fans believe they know more then the coaches and players. Very little solid analysis can be provide by fans by simply watching the games live. Fans also don't know player's responsibilities or what players were asked to do on certain plays. Maybe it appeared there were plays that Hood or certain players weren't doing their jobs. Players could had been doing what the coaches asked. We don't know because we don't know the inner workings.
We fans can only go by what works and what doesn't. And when something clearly doesn't work, and hasn't for a long time, it doesn't take a professional to figure out that something needs to be changed. :roll:
It appears that many issues and players worked out for the Steelers for a long time. For some reason, we get fans nitpicking and being overly critical because players don't play up to their standards. Some of those same fan's standards and knee jerk reactions would have had a player like Polamalu cut early in his career. Ziggy appears to be a solid player. He was drafted as the last pick in the first round. He could had easily been a 2nd round pick. I believe many fans expectations of Hood are too high. Seems that some want Hood to be this beast of a player that is usually expected out of top 10 to 15 picks.

Chadman
11-22-2011, 07:10 PM
If we're not to expect decent sack numbers for their position then IMO it was a mistake taking these guys in the 1st round. If we wanted run stutters. Those guy can be found later and developed. Just look at our track record with smith, keisel, kimo (run of the mill free agent)
It's more difficult to find guys to play 3-4 DE now then it was several years ago. More teams play the 3-4 or variations of the defense then in the past. Smith and Keisel were players that were drafted later because less teams ran the 3-4 defense.

I'm glad you pointed this out. There are several posters that think this is 2000 and there are only 2-3 teams playing the 34 defense.

I think I read somewhere that almost half the teams are now either playing predominately a 34D or at least a significant portion of their base defense in a 34.

Those 34 olb's and DE's that were just sitting out there for us to take in the late rounds are now getting drafted in the 1st 3 rounds. For our front 7 to get younger and maintain the talent we've come to expect, we have to invest premium choices.

Dammit.

I hate it when I agree with Chavezz.