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steelnavy
11-06-2011, 07:58 AM
Carnell Lake shows up and the secondary is now number 1 in the league. Coincidence? I think not. At the professional level where so many players have similar abilities, coaching makes the difference. Whats different about our secondary this year? Ray Horton is gone...

BURGH86STEEL
11-06-2011, 08:56 AM
It can be said it's a combination of both that includes some other variables. Most of the emphasis falls on the players to execute the coaches' strategy.

The Steeler's pass defense was better statistically in 2008 with Horton as DB coach. I believe there were a number a factors to consider in regard to the 2008 season's ranking. Steelers pass defense gave 15 pass TD's(3rd in the league) last season and have given up 10 up to this point of the season. He played a role in the drafting, development, and play of the DB's on the team. I am certain he would still be here if he wasn't hired as the Card's DC. I don't believe Lake arrived on the scene and simply coached up the players. We should also give Lake more time before he's anointed a savior.

steelnavy
11-06-2011, 09:30 AM
It can be said it's a combination of both that includes some other variables. Most of the emphasis falls on the players to execute the coaches' strategy.

The Steeler's pass defense was better statistically in 2008 with Horton as DB coach. I believe there were a number a factors to consider in regard to the 2008 season's ranking. Steelers pass defense gave 15 pass TD's(3rd in the league) last season and have given up 10 up to this point of the season. He played a role in the drafting, development, and play of the DB's on the team. I am certain he would still be here if he wasn't hired as the Card's DC. I don't believe Lake arrived on the scene and simply coached up the players. We should also give Lake more time before he's anointed a savior.

I can agree that it is too early to state anything with absolute certainty, but I can tell you that as soon as I read that Carnell was joining the Steelers, I was very excited to see what the secondary could so with the same personnel, and I have not been disappointed thus far.

The odds that William Gay and Keenan Lewis just happened to mature at the same time are low, and the odds that a 4th round draft pick would see a lot of playing time before Carnell showed up were just about nil. These guys are all fine tuned machines and just need the right coaching/schemes to bring out their best. Just sayin.

SanAntonioSteelerFan
11-06-2011, 10:34 AM
Also, aren't our d-back stats padded a bit by some of the pitiful teams we played (Seahawks, etc.)?

Maybe one of the biggest factors in our d-backs looking better this year is having B-Mac off the field. Not sure that was a good signing at all. Horton's?

feltdizz
11-06-2011, 10:48 AM
Also, aren't our d-back stats padded a bit by some of the pitiful teams we played (Seahawks, etc.)?

Maybe one of the biggest factors in our d-backs looking better this year is having B-Mac off the field. Not sure that was a good signing at all. Horton's?

I thinlast game showed our DB's had improved. When you are able to limit Welker to 4 catches and Brady can't find open guys you are doing something right.

Lake has been awesome and our secondary is playing great football. There are only 4 or 5 teams who can really test you pass D and we shut down one of the best.

SteelAbility
11-06-2011, 11:13 AM
I'll go with coaching. This is a game where the littlest adjustment makes the biggest difference. It's the coaches who have the bulk of the responsibility to study film and coach the adjustments on both the micro (player-based) and macro (team-based) levels.

Flasteel
11-06-2011, 11:47 AM
Like others have said, it's a combination of both. If you want to see where the major difference in our success is, you need not look beyond the coaching.

Not only is execution largely determined by the preparation in the film room and on the practice field, it is also a product of putting your players in a position which maximizes their skill set and allows them to win match-ups.

The schematic changes we've seen unfold this season are a great example of the coaches understanding the collective skills of their players - especially a lot of the young talent - and developing a plan of attack that allows them to win. It's not just "we're gonna do what we do and you need to stop us", it's now "what do we do well and what do we do not so well, and how can we best use that talent to attack the opponent".

That's what good coaching is all about.

I love the adjustments we've made on offense to take advantage of our receivers' abilities to stretch the field both horizontally and vertically. At the same time, we've protected the inability of our line to pass protect by getting the ball out quick, going no-huddle, tossing in some screens and draws, and disguising a lot of our pass plays. We did not do this stuff before (at least not on any consistent level) and I think it's a product of our talent forcing our coaching staff to think outside their traditional philosophies...and the coaches trusting them to execute.

Same on defense. The LeBeau cushion has been infamous in Pittsburgh for a long time. It's due to DL's philosophy of keeping everything in front of you and limiting the big play. It works great on most offenses, until you run across a quarterback who is accurate and makes good, quick decisions with the ball. The only way you beat teams with that guy under center is by taking away the underneath routes and forcing him to hold onto the ball longer.

Maybe it took Carnell Lake to come in and develop Willie Gay's and Keenan Lewis' skill set, to be that lock-down type guy. Maybe the talent was there all along and just needed to be recognized by a different approach to coaching the DBs. Maybe it was a natural maturation of these players. I'm inclined to believe there is a little of all that in the answer.

The one thing I know for sure is we are making new adjustments on both sides of the ball and the players on this team are responding in magnificent fashion. :tt2

Pahn711
11-06-2011, 11:57 AM
The odds that William Gay and Keenan Lewis just happened to mature at the same time are low, and the odds that a 4th round draft pick would see a lot of playing time before Carnell showed up were just about nil. These guys are all fine tuned machines and just need the right coaching/schemes to bring out their best. Just sayin.

Hmph, I wouldn't recommend trying your hand at oddsmaking anytime soon. :lol:

Whats so unlikely about the light turning on for both Gay and Lewis this year? For one thing, the coaches praised Gay all last year for his play in the nickel, so you could argue he had already bounced back from the year before that when he started. Lewis was considered to be in his "make or break" year, and right on schedule with how Taylor developed, he finally got it together. So to say this could not have conceivably happened doesn't make sense to me...

Its certainly not a coincidence that this happened under Lake, but saying the players had nothing to do with it is giving the coaches way too much credit.

SanAntonioSteelerFan
11-06-2011, 12:12 PM
Like others have said, it's a combination of both. If you want to see where the major difference in our success is, you need not look beyond the coaching.

Not only is execution largely determined by the preparation in the film room and on the practice field, it is also a product of putting your players in a position which maximizes their skill set and allows them to win match-ups.

The schematic changes we've seen unfold this season are a great example of the coaches understanding the collective skills of their players - especially a lot of the young talent - and developing a plan of attack that allows them to win. It's not just "we're gonna do what we do and you need to stop us", it's now "what do we do well and what do we do not so well, and how can we best use that talent to attack the opponent".

That's what good coaching is all about.

I love the adjustments we've made on offense to take advantage of our receivers' abilities to stretch the field both horizontally and vertically. At the same time, we've protected the inability of our line to pass protect by getting the ball out quick, going no-huddle, tossing in some screens and draws, and disguising a lot of our pass plays. We did not do this stuff before (at least not on any consistent level) and I think it's a product of our talent forcing our coaching staff to think outside their traditional philosophies...and the coaches trusting them to execute.

Same on defense. The LeBeau cushion has been infamous in Pittsburgh for a long time. It's due to DL's philosophy of keeping everything in front of you and limiting the big play. It works great on most offenses, until you run across a quarterback who is accurate and makes good, quick decisions with the ball. The only way you beat teams with that guy under center is by taking away the underneath routes and forcing him to hold onto the ball longer.

Maybe it took Carnell Lake to come in and develop Willie Gay's and Keenan Lewis' skill set, to be that lock-down type guy. Maybe the talent was there all along and just needed to be recognized by a different approach to coaching the DBs. Maybe it was a natural maturation of these players. I'm inclined to believe there is a little of all that in the answer.

The one thing I know for sure is we are making new adjustments on both sides of the ball and the players on this team are responding in magnificent fashion. :tt2

$$$$$

Fine, well-thought out post, with many excellent points on many levels, FLASTEEL -

:Agree

Oh, and :ratsuck

steelnavy
11-06-2011, 12:50 PM
Like others have said, it's a combination of both. If you want to see where the major difference in our success is, you need not look beyond the coaching.

Not only is execution largely determined by the preparation in the film room and on the practice field, it is also a product of putting your players in a position which maximizes their skill set and allows them to win match-ups.

The schematic changes we've seen unfold this season are a great example of the coaches understanding the collective skills of their players - especially a lot of the young talent - and developing a plan of attack that allows them to win. It's not just "we're gonna do what we do and you need to stop us", it's now "what do we do well and what do we do not so well, and how can we best use that talent to attack the opponent".

That's what good coaching is all about.

I love the adjustments we've made on offense to take advantage of our receivers' abilities to stretch the field both horizontally and vertically. At the same time, we've protected the inability of our line to pass protect by getting the ball out quick, going no-huddle, tossing in some screens and draws, and disguising a lot of our pass plays. We did not do this stuff before (at least not on any consistent level) and I think it's a product of our talent forcing our coaching staff to think outside their traditional philosophies...and the coaches trusting them to execute.

Same on defense. The LeBeau cushion has been infamous in Pittsburgh for a long time. It's due to DL's philosophy of keeping everything in front of you and limiting the big play. It works great on most offenses, until you run across a quarterback who is accurate and makes good, quick decisions with the ball. The only way you beat teams with that guy under center is by taking away the underneath routes and forcing him to hold onto the ball longer.

Maybe it took Carnell Lake to come in and develop Willie Gay's and Keenan Lewis' skill set, to be that lock-down type guy. Maybe the talent was there all along and just needed to be recognized by a different approach to coaching the DBs. Maybe it was a natural maturation of these players. I'm inclined to believe there is a little of all that in the answer.

The one thing I know for sure is we are making new adjustments on both sides of the ball and the players on this team are responding in magnificent fashion. :tt2

$$$$$

Fine, well-thought out post, with many excellent points on many levels, FLASTEEL -

:Agree

Oh, and :ratsuck

:Agree

SteelCrazy
11-06-2011, 12:56 PM
I think it has more to do with our run defense this year as opposed to other years. The DB's are better equipped to play press though and that was one good thing Lake has changed.

steelnavy
11-06-2011, 01:09 PM
The odds that William Gay and Keenan Lewis just happened to mature at the same time are low, and the odds that a 4th round draft pick would see a lot of playing time before Carnell showed up were just about nil. These guys are all fine tuned machines and just need the right coaching/schemes to bring out their best. Just sayin.

Hmph, I wouldn't recommend trying your hand at oddsmaking anytime soon. :lol:

Whats so unlikely about the light turning on for both Gay and Lewis this year? For one thing, the coaches praised Gay all last year for his play in the nickel, so you could argue he had already bounced back from the year before that when he started. Lewis was considered to be in his "make or break" year, and right on schedule with how Taylor developed, he finally got it together. So to say this could not have conceivably happened doesn't make sense to me...

Its certainly not a coincidence that this happened under Lake, but saying the players had nothing to do with it is giving the coaches way too much credit.

Hmmph, I will stand by what I said and am confident that I can do better than you. :D FLASTEEL's post says it very well and I am in complete agreement.

As far as your assumption, yes, in a snapshot of time, it is plausible that both CBs matured as Carnell showed up. But if that is the case, why hadn't anybody "matured" over the past few years? Seems that you should have a history of both hits and misses, but we coincidentally have had tons of misses in the past, and all of the sudden get all of these "hits" in one year?

And BTW, I never said that the players had nothing to do with it. I was stating that the big difference is the coach. Of course the players have to have the ability or they would not be on the team. Its the coach tweaking little things and using the players to their strengths that gets a little bit more out of them and makes the difference.

And speaking of how coaches affect things, I see that Ray Horton's pass defense is ranked around 30th in the League. Yea, I don't have a clue... :lol:

Flasteel
11-06-2011, 06:27 PM
$$$$$

Fine, well-thought out post, with many excellent points on many levels, FLASTEEL -

:Agree

Oh, and :ratsuck

Why thanks SASF! :D

Pahn711
11-06-2011, 07:55 PM
Hmmph, I will stand by what I said and am confident that I can do better than you. :D

:lol: Oh, its possible, though that might not be saying much.



As far as your assumption, yes, in a snapshot of time, it is plausible that both CBs matured as Carnell showed up. But if that is the case, why hadn't anybody "matured" over the past few years? Seems that you should have a history of both hits and misses, but we coincidentally have had tons of misses in the past, and all of the sudden get all of these "hits" in one year?

My argument is an assumption just as much as yours. Ike Taylor matured in a similar timeline, and if you go back and read any media coverage last year of the coaches talking about the performance of Gay, they had a lot of praise for his improvement in the nickel.

Your scope of history is too narrow if you think there have been tons of misses. The Steelers have stuck with pretty much the same mediocre guys for a number of years (and one of them was usually just a special teamer), how much success do you expect them to have when they don't draft corners high?



And speaking of how coaches affect things, I see that Ray Horton's pass defense is ranked around 30th in the League. Yea, I don't have a clue... :lol:

The Cardinals were 23rd in passing defense last year, so its not like Horton took control and ran them into the ground. It might have more to do with, oh I dunno....the lack of quality players?



And BTW, I never said that the players had nothing to do with it. I was stating that the big difference is the coach. Of course the players have to have the ability or they would not be on the team.

Actually, you did. You claimed the odds were so low that both players could have finally got it together this year. We really aren't that far apart on this topic though, I just think you are giving just a bit too much credit to coaches and your "odds" statement made me believe you were giving absolutely none to the players (which now you say you didn't quite mean).

Lets not fight, its almost ravens time. :tt1

NJ-STEELER
11-06-2011, 11:16 PM
i still hold my breath when the ball is heading to the side ike isnt on

NJ-STEELER
11-07-2011, 12:56 AM
i still hold my breath when the ball is heading to the side ike isnt on

should have specified gay, but lewis doesnt inspire a lot of confidence in me either.

hell, even ike looked bad on a couple of plays tonight