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SanAntonioSteelerFan
10-30-2011, 09:50 PM
If no one had touched the ball before it went out of the EZ (after Troy batted it away) would that have still been a safety "by rule"?
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OK, I did some research: http://www.nfl.com/rulebook/safety2



Digest of Rules Main
Safety

The important factor in a safety is impetus. Two points are scored for the opposing team when the ball is dead on or behind a teamís own goal line if the impetus came from a player on that team.

Examples of Safety:

(a) Blocked punt goes out of kicking teamís end zone. Impetus was provided by punting team. The block only changes direction of ball, not impetus.

(b) Ball carrier retreats from field of play into his own end zone and is downed. Ball carrier provides impetus.

(c) Offensive team commits a foul and spot of enforcement is behind its own goal line.

(d) Player on receiving team muffs punt and, trying to get ball, forces or illegally kicks (creating new impetus) it into end zone where it goes out of the end zone or is recovered by a member of the receiving team in the end zone.

Examples of Non-Safety:

(a) Player intercepts a pass with both feet inbounds in the field of play and his momentum carries him into his own end zone. Ball is put in play at spot of interception.

(b) Player intercepts a pass in his own end zone and is downed in the end zone, even after recovering in the end zone. Impetus came from passing team, not from defense. (Touchback)

(c) Player passes from behind his own goal line. Opponent bats down ball in end zone. (Incomplete pass)




You know, it seems to me that the "impetus" came from Troy, NOT from Patriots* ... and so there is an argument to be made, based on the above, that it WASN'T a safety.

Anyone have any thoughts?

papillon
10-30-2011, 09:57 PM
If no one had touched the ball before it went out of the EZ (after Troy batted it away) would that have still been a safety "by rule"?
.
.
.
.
.
.
.

OK, I did some research: http://www.nfl.com/rulebook/safety2



Digest of Rules Main
Safety

The important factor in a safety is impetus. Two points are scored for the opposing team when the ball is dead on or behind a teamís own goal line if the impetus came from a player on that team.

Examples of Safety:

(a) Blocked punt goes out of kicking teamís end zone. Impetus was provided by punting team. The block only changes direction of ball, not impetus.

(b) Ball carrier retreats from field of play into his own end zone and is downed. Ball carrier provides impetus.

(c) Offensive team commits a foul and spot of enforcement is behind its own goal line.

(d) Player on receiving team muffs punt and, trying to get ball, forces or illegally kicks (creating new impetus) it into end zone where it goes out of the end zone or is recovered by a member of the receiving team in the end zone.

Examples of Non-Safety:

(a) Player intercepts a pass with both feet inbounds in the field of play and his momentum carries him into his own end zone. Ball is put in play at spot of interception.

(b) Player intercepts a pass in his own end zone and is downed in the end zone, even after recovering in the end zone. Impetus came from passing team, not from defense. (Touchback)

(c) Player passes from behind his own goal line. Opponent bats down ball in end zone. (Incomplete pass)




You know, it seems to me that the "impetus" came from Troy, NOT from Patriots* ... and so there is an argument to be made, based on the above, that it WASN'T a safety.

Anyone have any thoughts?

I was always under the impression since the Dave Casper play back in the dark ages (70s) when he purposely continued kicking and moving a ball forward until he finally fell on it in the end zone for a TD that purposely hitting a ball to move it forward was a penalty or something. I guess in the mayhem that no one realized that Troy purposely hit it forward.

I'm not sure what would have happened had the refs realized what he did.

Pappy

hawaiiansteel
10-30-2011, 10:02 PM
I'm not sure what would have happened had the refs realized what he did.

Pappy

Deliberately batting or punching a loose ball is a 10 yard penalty from the spot where it was hit from, therefore it would not have been ruled a safety.

we got away with that one...

papillon
10-30-2011, 10:06 PM
I'm not sure what would have happened had the refs realized what he did.

Pappy

Deliberately batting or punching a loose ball is a 10 yard penalty from the spot where it was hit from, therefore it would not have been ruled a safety.

we got away with that one...

So, had the ball stayed in play and recovered by the Steelers, the turnover would have been taken away and New England given the ball back? Or, would we have retained possession and then been assessed the 10 yards?

Pappy

JTP53609
10-30-2011, 10:13 PM
another one of those gray rules.....I am confused by it too....

why does troy always have a weird play at the end of the game at least once a year, remember that home game against S.D. 2 years ago, I think he did something weird on the last play of the game and scored a TD and the refs overturned it and took the points off the board...

Pahn711
10-30-2011, 10:26 PM
I didn't understand what would have happened if the replay was determined to have not been a safety....completely baffled by that one.

SanAntonioSteelerFan
10-30-2011, 10:31 PM
Funny thing is, the play was reviewed upstairs, and it was clear as day what Troy did on the replay. Are the replay guys just sucking on whip cream canisters up there, or is there something we're all missing here?

Pahn711
10-30-2011, 10:32 PM
Funny thing is, the play was reviewed upstairs, and it was clear as day what Troy did on the replay. Are the replay guys just sucking on whip cream canisters up there, or is there something we're all missing here?

I actually don't think it was obvious that he intentionally knocked the ball away.

SanAntonioSteelerFan
10-30-2011, 10:39 PM
Funny thing is, the play was reviewed upstairs, and it was clear as day what Troy did on the replay. Are the replay guys just sucking on whip cream canisters up there, or is there something we're all missing here?

I actually don't think it was obvious that he intentionally knocked the ball away.

Well, maybe so, but it was pretty obvious to a bunch of folks, like on the radio, and also go to NFL.com replay of the game, one guy said, "Heads up play by Troy, batting that ball away", then the other announcer said, "Yeah, but that's illegal".

Gotta wonder what they were actually watching up there. Maybe some Gronkowski clips on x-video.com!

NorCal-Steeler
10-30-2011, 10:43 PM
i always thought it was the offense cant advance the balldont know if there any rules about hitting a loose ball on def

hawaiiansteel
10-30-2011, 10:44 PM
Funny thing is, the play was reviewed upstairs, and it was clear as day what Troy did on the replay. Are the replay guys just sucking on whip cream canisters up there, or is there something we're all missing here?


the review upstairs was only for the purpose of determining whether we had recovered the ball in the end zone for a TD or whether it was going to be a safety.

since the refs never called a penalty on Troy there was nothing there for them to review.

Slapstick
10-30-2011, 10:59 PM
You also have to consider the rules for a fumble as well...

If a ball is fumbled and ends up going out of bounds before any player is able to establish possession, the ball reverts back to the fumbling team...

Because the ball went out of the back of the end zone without anyone establishing possession, the Pats* gave up the safety...

hawaiiansteel
10-31-2011, 12:43 AM
Funny thing is, the play was reviewed upstairs, and it was clear as day what Troy did on the replay. Are the replay guys just sucking on whip cream canisters up there, or is there something we're all missing here?

I actually don't think it was obvious that he intentionally knocked the ball away.

Troyís fumble punch mightíve been illegal, but it was a heads-up play and didn't look intentional at all when it first happened...only once it was shown in slow-motion replay was Troy's intent obvious.

http://photos.triblive.com/photos/PITT/1352312/38595457E.jpg

Ghost
10-31-2011, 09:37 AM
i always thought it was the offense cant advance the balldont know if there any rules about hitting a loose ball on def

This is what I thought the rule was as well. The rule came about from a raiders game when they were on O and purposefully hit the ball towards (or into) the endzone and grabbed it for a TD. I've never heard it used in context of a D guy hitting a ball. Seems as if that would be legal if you're punching it away from an O player so your team has a chance to recover the ball.

fordfixer
10-31-2011, 09:52 PM
Polamalu's slapping ball for safety against the rules

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/f ... ref=sircrc (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/football/nfl/10/31/troy-polamalu.ap/index.html?eref=sircrc)

PITTSBURGH (AP) -- Pittsburgh safety Troy Polamalu's slapping of the ball into the end zone at the end of the Steelers' victory over New England was against an NFL rule.

The rule states that a player may not bat or punch a loose ball in the field of play toward the opponent's goal line; a loose ball that has touched the ground in any direction, if it is in either end zone; or a backward pass in flight, which can't be batted forward by an offensive player.

Polamalu slid after Tom Brady's fumble in the final moments of the game and slapped it into the end zone. The ball slid through the end zone for a safety, making the final score 25-17 for the Steelers.

When asked about the play after the game, Polamalu said, "Whatever is going to get me in trouble, I'm saying the opposite."

The NFL Defensive Player of the Year last season, Polamalu made five tackles as the Steelers held New England to 213 yards, only 170 passing.

The call is not reviewable by video replay.

Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/f ... z1cPl6mCBQ (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/football/nfl/10/31/troy-polamalu.ap/index.html#ixzz1cPl6mCBQ)

DukieBoy
10-31-2011, 10:05 PM
So, on a loose ball, you can grab the ball away, or pull the ball away, but you can't push the ball away by any means such as a slap, punch, etc? And in a pile, you can bite, spit, punch, grab sensitive areas, etc, to try to get the ball away from an opponent. I've seen players carrying the ball and defenders try to punch or slap the ball away. Too many micromanaging rules mess up the game.

They ought to correct this. Make it simple!

SanAntonioSteelerFan
11-01-2011, 06:58 AM
To get back to the question in the original post:

The rules posted up there seemed to clearly make the point that it's only a safety if the original team on offense was responsible for the ball going back into their own end zone ... that concept of "impetus".

In this case that clearly did not happen - it was not the Pats* that were responsible for the ball going into their end zone, but rather it was the original team on defense (the Steelers, in this case) that provided the impetus for the ball to go in the Pats* end zone.

So, how does that make this play a safety?

Slapstick
11-01-2011, 07:38 AM
NFL Fmuble Rules Excerpt:


On fumbles that go out of bounds the last team to actually have possession of the football will be awarded the ball. The ball is spotted where it went out of bounds if the offensive team fumbles it out of bounds behind the line of scrimmage. If the ball is fumbled forward and it rolls or is knocked out of bounds it is spotted at the point where it was fumbled. This rule keeps a player from deliberately fumbling a ball forwards and out of bounds to gain yardage. If a team fumbles the ball into and out of the opponent's end zone, it is ruled a touchback once it goes out of bounds. This means that the opponent will be awarded the ball at their own 20 yard line. If a team fumbles the ball out of bounds in the end zone they are defending then a safety is the result, with two points for the other team. This also occurs when a punt is blocked out of bounds in the end zone.

Read more: NFL Out of Bounds Rules | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/about_4676933_nfl-o ... z1cS8J2Nh1 (http://www.ehow.com/about_4676933_nfl-out-bounds-rules.html#ixzz1cS8J2Nh1)

It makes sense if you think about the punt block as a safety as well...

SanAntonioSteelerFan
11-01-2011, 01:19 PM
NFL Fmuble Rules Excerpt:


On fumbles that go out of bounds the last team to actually have possession of the football will be awarded the ball. The ball is spotted where it went out of bounds if the offensive team fumbles it out of bounds behind the line of scrimmage. If the ball is fumbled forward and it rolls or is knocked out of bounds it is spotted at the point where it was fumbled. This rule keeps a player from deliberately fumbling a ball forwards and out of bounds to gain yardage. If a team fumbles the ball into and out of the opponent's end zone, it is ruled a touchback once it goes out of bounds. This means that the opponent will be awarded the ball at their own 20 yard line. If a team fumbles the ball out of bounds in the end zone they are defending then a safety is the result, with two points for the other team. This also occurs when a punt is blocked out of bounds in the end zone.

Read more: NFL Out of Bounds Rules | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/about_4676933_nfl-o ... z1cS8J2Nh1 (http://www.ehow.com/about_4676933_nfl-out-bounds-rules.html#ixzz1cS8J2Nh1)

It makes sense if you think about the punt block as a safety as well...

Awesome, Slaptstick, I think you nailed it with that reference! Thanks -