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View Full Version : Ok so you are unhappy with Ben at QB....



Dee Dub
10-17-2011, 07:52 PM
...so who do you want to QB the Pittsburgh Steelers? Charlie Batch? Dennis Dixon? Someone outside the organization?

There seems to be a lot of unhappy Steelers fans who are unsatisfied with Ben and his quarterback play. What do you want then? Tells us. Just come out and say it. Stop with the Ben bashing and tell us who you want as the QB of the Pittsburgh Steelers.

In Ben I see a quarterback who has been one of the most successful QB's the NFL has ever seen over the first 7 years of a QB's career. I see a very tough QB who game in and game out takes a pounding. Never directs any blame to anyone other than himself. I see a QB who is far from perfect yet over his 7 plus years as QB has made many more plays than he hasn't. I see a QB who hasn't always had the best of circumstances around him. Whether that be a run first mentality at head coach, a lack of elite weapons, a poor offensive line, or at times a lack of a running game, yet I still see a QB who in my eyes has been one of the games best that has ever played the game. And no doubt one of the most successful.

I've heard some here say they are sick of the excuses that are continuously thrown out for Ben. What excuses? Ben doesnt need excuses. He has won two Super Bowls and three AFC Championships. Over the first 7 years of Ben's career he has more 4th quarter come from behind wins than any QB in the history of the NFL over their first 7 years. He has a career completion percentage of 63% and has thrown 153 TD's to 92 INT's.

Again Ben doesnt need any excuses. His play speaks for itself. He is one of the best the game has ever seen. I for one am glad he is the QB of my favorite team.

Now if he isnt what you want or isnt good enough or prefect for you...then I say that is a you problem. Maybe you might want to take a look inside and ask yourself...why isnt what Ben has done, enough for you? Why do you have to be so critical of one of the games greatest QB? What is it that you are really wanting? A Tom Brady? A Peyton Manning? Not me. I like our blue collar, tough as nails, never pointing a finger at teammates or coaches, get it done QB.

I sometimes wonder if Ben will one day get driven out of Pittsburgh after his career is over like what happened Terry Bradshaw? Or at least not want to come back like Terry did for so long?

I sure hope not.

Some people just can never be happy or satisfied. Some people just dont realize what they really have sometimes.

Eddie Spaghetti
10-17-2011, 08:01 PM
i love ben.

he just needs to play better.

pretty simple, really.

hawaiiansteel
10-17-2011, 08:01 PM
the only time I was unhappy with Ben is when he got this haircut:

http://images.huffingtonpost.com/gen/157046/BEN-ROETHLISBERGER-HAIRCUT.jpg

Dee Dub
10-17-2011, 08:05 PM
i love ben.

he just needs to play better.

pretty simple, really.

So you expect him to play great every single moment he is on the field?

Again...you might wanna take a look inside and find out why you expect perfection..or why you have unrealistic expectations.

birtikidis
10-17-2011, 08:05 PM
the only time I was unhappy with Ben is when he got this haircut:

http://images.huffingtonpost.com/gen/157046/BEN-ROETHLISBERGER-HAIRCUT.jpg
When I saw that, I thought maybe he was replacing Dogg as the bounty hunter.

fordfixer
10-17-2011, 08:05 PM
the only time I was unhappy with Ben is when he got this haircut:

http://images.huffingtonpost.com/gen/157046/BEN-ROETHLISBERGER-HAIRCUT.jpg


So you would rather start Batch over Ben because of a hair cut :moon :lol: :lol:

Eddie Spaghetti
10-17-2011, 08:07 PM
[quote="Eddie Spaghetti":1m6gshvh]i love ben.

he just needs to play better.

pretty simple, really.

So you expect him to play great every single moment he is on the field?

Again...you might wanna take a look inside and find out why you expect perfection..or why you have unrealistic expectations.[/quote:1m6gshvh]

give me a break with this "looking inside me crap".

i expect ben to play better because i know that he is capable of better play.

this a pure fishing thread.

Dee Dub
10-17-2011, 08:14 PM
[quote="Dee Dub":k5d1ns6d][quote="Eddie Spaghetti":k5d1ns6d]i love ben.

he just needs to play better.

pretty simple, really.

So you expect him to play great every single moment he is on the field?

Again...you might wanna take a look inside and find out why you expect perfection..or why you have unrealistic expectations.[/quote:k5d1ns6d]

give me a break with this "looking inside me crap".

i expect ben to play better because i know that he is capable of better play.

this a pure fishing thread.[/quote:k5d1ns6d]

Are you one of the one's who constantly bashes Ben? and Never seems to be happy with his play? If you are then I'll say what I said. If you arent then move on.

Chadman
10-17-2011, 08:38 PM
I think Kordell Stewart was the best Steeler QB of the last 20 years.

We should have him back.

I want him back over Ben.

I want to see this thread go into nuclear meltdown.

I'm pretty mean like that.

hawaiiansteel
10-17-2011, 09:04 PM
I think Kordell Stewart was the best Steeler QB of the last 20 years.

We should have him back.

I want him back over Ben.



sorry, you can't pick a guy who ever donned a Ratbirds uniform over Ben... :D

http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2004/writers/reuben_frank/11/17/frank.stewart/p1_stewart_kordell_getty.jpg

BradshawsHairdresser
10-17-2011, 09:44 PM
So you expect him to play great every single moment he is on the field?

No...but I don't think something more than 8 quarters out of six games would be unreasonable...


Again...you might wanna take a look inside and find out why you expect perfection..or why you have unrealistic expectations.

I've heard you also criticize the play of several players (ie., Ryan Clark, Bryant McFadden, Willie Gay; in past years, Ike Taylor). Let me turn the tables...Do you really expect them to play great every single moment they are on the field? Maybe you ought to take a look inside, and find out why you expect perfection, or why you have unrealistic expectations. :lol:

Like the OP, I want Ben as our QB, but I want him to play up to the level he is capable of playing. If he does, this team has an excellent chance to be in the mix to contend for another Super Bowl. If he doesn't, well...we might not even make the playoffs.

skyhawk
10-17-2011, 10:02 PM
I don't think Ben is playing well.

I also think Steeler recievers have a hard time getting open. They don't have good timing going. BA changed things up and stopped the short timing throws they made against the Titans.

ter1230_4
10-17-2011, 10:14 PM
Like the OP, I want Ben as our QB, but I want him to play up to the level he is capable of playing. If he does, this team has an excellent chance to be in the mix to contend for another Super Bowl. If he doesn't, well...we might not even make the playoffs.

Bingo. I think that every year we have Ben, the Steelers are a legitimate contender to win the Super Bowl. Of course none of us want Batch or Dixon starting instead of Ben. But Ben has to play at a pretty high level for the Steelers to make and/or win a Super Bowl, and so far this year I don't think he's there. He has thrown some of the worst looking interceptions this year that I've ever seen. And even in the Tennessee game he had a couple of really bad throws. The last time I remember Ben looking as bad as the 2nd half of the Jags game was the home game against the Bengals in 2009. You remember that game-- Steelers came in 6-2, lost to the Bengals and began a 5 game losing streak. The yardage superiority not translating to the scoreboard also has a strong whiff of the odor of 2009.

Blitz-en
10-17-2011, 10:41 PM
Well, I don't post much. And, I love having Ben as our QB. He's been the answer to 20 years worth of prayers (Since Bradshaw). We had a consistent QB in O'Donnell, but who seriously considered him "the" guy to take us to multiple Super Bowls? So, I'm very excited to have an elite QB on this team. It is very, very difficult to compete for a Super Bowl without one of these unique talents.

To my point, I agree with the poster that said more can be expected of Ben. I think we can all agree, there's another level to Ben Roethlisberger. We saw a preview of that in the Tennessee game, when he was forced to accept the first open receiver. When he does that, he's better than Aaron Rodgers. Yep, I said it. Why is Brady and Rodgers successful? They take the open option every time. Ben, passes the "easy" stuff and tries to swing for the fences every throw.

He has no discipline. He plays like a maverick. That works for him. Hell, it took him to 3 Super Bowls. Who can argue with that? Well, I can. He could solidify himself as one of the best ever if he would become disciplined, study tape, and take open option. This will open up stuff down the field......without having to fight off wild dogs to get out of the pocket and throw an off-balanced throw, wobbling like a dead duck, 40 yards down field, 5 yards underthrown to a wide open receiver. The guy is missing the chance to go from "great" to truly "elite". I think most of us can see that. He's stubborn. The Steelers organization will continue to fill the talent pipeline, but can he take the step to the next level? Right now, it looks like he's too stubborn to do that.

DukieBoy
10-17-2011, 11:06 PM
i love ben.

he just needs to play better.

pretty simple, really.


This says it simple and true, IMO.

Dee Dub
10-17-2011, 11:31 PM
Ok so I have heard from some who are expecting Ben to play better say, "the receivers are having a hard time getting open, the O-line isnt very good, the run game has been inconsistant, and the play calling has been horrible more times than not".....and you expect Ben to be able to play better?

Again..I think this is a case of unrealistic expectations...and a lack of not seeing the big picture.

Dee Dub
10-17-2011, 11:42 PM
I've heard you also criticize the play of several players (ie., Ryan Clark, Bryant McFadden, Willie Gay; in past years, Ike Taylor). Let me turn the tables...Do you really expect them to play great every single moment they are on the field? Maybe you ought to take a look inside, and find out why you expect perfection, or why you have unrealistic expectations. :lol:


Really? You can compare the holes in the games of Clark, McFadden, and Gay to the type of criticism that is laid on Ben Roethlisberger? My criticism of those players has nothing to do with any expectations or grand illusions of them being anything more than what they are. Clark is horrible in pass coverage, fact. McFadden wouldnt start on 30 NFL teams, fact...and Gay is nothing more than a nickle back, fact.

And my criticism of Ike Taylor was earlier on in his career..and I think it was warranted. I have also come forward and given him praise over the past few years for the tremendous progress he has made in coverage.

And for the record...I would never ever expect Clark, McFadden, or Gay to play above their heads for anything great length of time. I expect them all to have lapses.

Steelers>NFL
10-18-2011, 08:11 AM
the only time I was unhappy with Ben is when he got this haircut:

http://images.huffingtonpost.com/gen/157046/BEN-ROETHLISBERGER-HAIRCUT.jpg

He looks like a FAT TURD in this picture. Hate it! discussing..

flippy
10-18-2011, 08:22 AM
Where's that D'Art guy to point out the fallacy in this post?

Just because someone complains about Ben doesn't mean they want to replace him. Actually, I suspect not a single person on this board wants to replace Ben.

steelblood
10-18-2011, 08:30 AM
Some folks don't really like Ben and never have.
Some folks put Ben on a pedestal and believe that criticizing him in any way is bashing.
Some folks simply see Ben for what he is. A great QB, who sometimes plays poorly.

There are some who criticize Ben's play and want him gone. But, the vast majority of those who are critical of his play don't want to replace him. They simply want him to improve. Not because they hate Ben, but because they love the Steelers. Ben has had some poor games this year. His poor play is not entirely his fault. But, he is culpable. He needs to improve for this team to do well in the playoffs. I think he will. But, if I criticize him in the future, please don't take that to mean that I want him gone or replaced. That is an illogical connection.

Slapstick
10-18-2011, 08:56 AM
Some of the responses to Dee Dub's post are far more measured and considered than others posts thrown around this board lately...

I think Dee Dub's point is this:

If you think Ben should play better, you can simply say that...I don't think that his post was directed at the people who feel that way...

We can all admit that Ben has not had a great season so far...

feltdizz
10-18-2011, 09:05 AM
I can't believe people are trying to tell fans how to criticize or describe inferior play by a superior athlete.

grotonsteel
10-18-2011, 10:21 AM
Actually, I suspect not a single person on this board wants to replace Ben.

I can name a few.

There are few who rate Mark Sanchez higher than Ben because he gets the ball out of hand quickly.

BradshawsHairdresser
10-18-2011, 11:17 AM
I've heard you also criticize the play of several players (ie., Ryan Clark, Bryant McFadden, Willie Gay; in past years, Ike Taylor). Let me turn the tables...Do you really expect them to play great every single moment they are on the field? Maybe you ought to take a look inside, and find out why you expect perfection, or why you have unrealistic expectations. :lol:


Really? You can compare the holes in the games of Clark, McFadden, and Gay to the type of criticism that is laid on Ben Roethlisberger? My criticism of those players has nothing to do with any expectations or grand illusions of them being anything more than what they are. Clark is horrible in pass coverage, fact. McFadden wouldnt start on 30 NFL teams, fact...and Gay is nothing more than a nickle back, fact.

And my criticism of Ike Taylor was earlier on in his career..and I think it was warranted. I have also come forward and given him praise over the past few years for the tremendous progress he has made in coverage.

And for the record...I would never ever expect Clark, McFadden, or Gay to play above their heads for anything great length of time. I expect them all to have lapses.

So Ben is above criticism because he is a superior player? I don't get this at all. If anything, because Ben is a franchise QB, he ought to be held to a HIGHER standard, IMO.
He's a TREMENDOUS talent, and we're very fortunate to have him...but his performance has clearly been below par this season. If you're going to place all the blame for that on bad playcalling and poor play from teammates, then what are you going to say about Ben when he does well? I don't think you would like it (nor would I) if Ben was referred to as "nothing more than a game manager" when he was playing well. Well, you can't have it both ways, IMO. If you want him to be regarded as one of the best when he does well, then he has to take his share of the blame when he doesn't do so well.

And for the record, none of my criticisms of Ben have anything to do with expecting him to play "above his head for any great length of time." I simply want to see him play up to the ability we all know he is capable of.

ikestops85
10-18-2011, 11:26 AM
I've heard you also criticize the play of several players (ie., Ryan Clark, Bryant McFadden, Willie Gay; in past years, Ike Taylor). Let me turn the tables...Do you really expect them to play great every single moment they are on the field? Maybe you ought to take a look inside, and find out why you expect perfection, or why you have unrealistic expectations. :lol:


Really? You can compare the holes in the games of Clark, McFadden, and Gay to the type of criticism that is laid on Ben Roethlisberger? My criticism of those players has nothing to do with any expectations or grand illusions of them being anything more than what they are. Clark is horrible in pass coverage, fact. McFadden wouldnt start on 30 NFL teams, fact...and Gay is nothing more than a nickle back, fact.

And my criticism of Ike Taylor was earlier on in his career..and I think it was warranted. I have also come forward and given him praise over the past few years for the tremendous progress he has made in coverage.

And for the record...I would never ever expect Clark, McFadden, or Gay to play above their heads for anything great length of time. I expect them all to have lapses.

So Ben is above criticism because he is a superior player? I don't get this at all. If anything, because Ben is a franchise QB, he ought to be held to a HIGHER standard, IMO.
He's a TREMENDOUS talent, and we're very fortunate to have him...but his performance has clearly been below par this season. If you're going to place all the blame for that on bad playcalling and poor play from teammates, then what are you going to say about Ben when he does well? I don't think you would like it (nor would I) if Ben was referred to as "nothing more than a game manager" when he was playing well. Well, you can't have it both ways, IMO. If you want him to be regarded as one of the best when he does well, then he has to take his share of the blame when he doesn't do so well.

And for the record, none of my criticisms of Ben have anything to do with expecting him to play "above his head for any great length of time." I simply want to see him play up to the ability we all know he is capable of.

:Agree

Very well said ... Bravo! :tt2

BradshawsHairdresser
10-18-2011, 11:27 AM
Some of the responses to Dee Dub's post are far more measured and considered than others posts thrown around this board lately...

I think Dee Dub's point is this:

If you think Ben should play better, you can simply say that...I don't think that his post was directed at the people who feel that way...

We can all admit that Ben has not had a great season so far...

I don't think that's what he's saying...read all his posts. He doesn't think Ben should be getting any criticism at all.

I want Ben to do well. I want him to be our QB. But I'm not satisfied with his performance this season. I don't see how saying that makes me a "hater."

williar
10-18-2011, 11:59 AM
I am a steeler fan, not a Ben fan. I think Ben is overrated. After 8 years in the league his game has not improved to the level of an elite QB. He has been in the same offensive system his entire career and has yet to display any mastery of his offense. I think Arians and OL gets too much of the blame that should be going to Ben. It is clearly obvious to me that Ben is not and has never been a student of the game. Many of the shortcoming he continues to have is because lacks in the mental intuitiveness department. He doesn't have good instincts. I have never seen Ben outsmart a defense. He doesn't appear to have the desire to get better or work on his game (see lack of timing with young receivers).

I believe Ben has been the beneficiary of being a part of the steelers and not the other way around. I believe if Ben would have been drafted by the rams, bills, raiders, browns, lions, or some lesser organization he might be out of the league right now. The Steeler have been successful during the Ben era primarily because of their defense, not their offense. The offense has never been consistent or explosive during the Ben era.

When was the last time Ben single handedly won a game by himself? When we won a game because of Ben's arm. I'm talking no defense, no running game, etc. we won the game 38-35. I know everybody's going to say the GB game in '09. That was a long time ago.

Can you imagine if Brady, Manning or some other elite QB had these weapons we have on our offense? Brady would be scooring 50 points a game. Do you think Brady or Brees would be constantly missing wide open receivers down field and then talking about it was the wind? Dude please!!!!

To answer some of your questions, here are some of my problems with Ben's play.

- very inconsistent, eratic play
- displays poor decision making
- poor fundementals
- doesn't have killer instinct, or a scorers mentality (see last game and many others)
- this guy loses focus and intensity with a 10 point lead.
- lacks intensity and urgency (no way you go a half against a team like jacksonville without putting any points on the board).
- average arm
- not a very accurate passer
- poor deep ball passer
- slow mechanics, holds the ball too long
- not very smart, relies too much on his toughness and physical skills.
- has not proven himself successful without a great defense.
- sucked in 2 out of 3 super bowls. One was a bordeline performance with the exception of one great drive aided by MVP Santonio Holmes.

QB's I'd rather have leading my team than Ben. I think our offense would be better.
- Aaron Rogers
- Tom Brady
- Peyton Manning
- Philip Rivers
- Cam Newton
- Drew Brees
- Josh Freeman

williar
10-18-2011, 12:06 PM
Oh! I forgot to add:

- a turnover machine (Ben committs some of the dumbest, untimely, momentum changing turnovers I have ever seen)....

Dee Dub
10-18-2011, 12:13 PM
I am a steeler fan, not a Ben fan. I think Ben is overrated. After 8 years in the league his game has not improved to the level of an elite QB. He has been in the same offensive system his entire career and has yet to display any mastery of his offense. I think Arians and OL gets too much of the blame that should be going to Ben. It is clearly obvious to me that Ben is not and has never been a student of the game. Many of the shortcoming he continues to have is because lacks in the mental intuitiveness department. He doesn't have good instincts. I have never seen Ben outsmart a defense. He doesn't appear to have the desire to get better or work on his game (see lack of timing with young receivers).

I believe Ben has been the beneficiary of being a part of the steelers and not the other way around. I believe if Ben would have been drafted by the rams, bills, raiders, browns, lions, or some lesser organization he might be out of the league right now. The Steeler have been successful during the Ben era primarily because of their defense, not their offense. The offense has never been consistent or explosive during the Ben era.

When was the last time Ben single handedly won a game by himself? When we won a game because of Ben's arm. I'm talking no defense, no running game, etc. we won the game 38-35. I know everybody's going to say the GB game in '09. That was a long time ago.

Can you imagine if Brady, Manning or some other elite QB had these weapons we have on our offense? Brady would be scooring 50 points a game. Do you think Brady or Brees would be constantly missing wide open receivers down field and then talking about it was the wind? Dude please!!!!

To answer some of your questions, here are some of my problems with Ben's play.

- very inconsistent, eratic play
- displays poor decision making
- poor fundementals
- doesn't have killer instinct, or a scorers mentality (see last game and many others)
- this guy loses focus and intensity with a 10 point lead.
- lacks intensity and urgency (no way you go a half against a team like jacksonville without putting any points on the board).
- average arm
- not a very accurate passer
- poor deep ball passer
- slow mechanics, holds the ball too long
- not very smart, relies too much on his toughness and physical skills.
- has not proven himself successful without a great defense.
- sucked in 2 out of 3 super bowls. One was a bordeline performance with the exception of one great drive aided by MVP Santonio Holmes.

QB's I'd rather have leading my team than Ben. I think our offense would be better.
- Aaron Rogers
- Tom Brady
- Peyton Manning
- Philip Rivers
- Cam Newton
- Drew Brees
- Josh Freeman

This is exactly what I am talking about. This supposed Steeler fan says Ben is overrated. How can you be overrated when you have won two Super Bowls and 3 AFC Championship games when you play the most difficult/critical position on a football team?

And he says he would rather have Cam Newton over Ben Roethlisberger?

Unbelievable. :roll:

Dee Dub
10-18-2011, 12:16 PM
Oh! I forgot to add:

- a turnover machine (Ben committs some of the dumbest, untimely, momentum changing turnovers I have ever seen)....


Ben is a turnover machine? Again..is this not an over-critical, over blown point of view? Ben's lifetime numbers dont suggest he is a turnover machine. And again...I would like to point out that no QB in the history of the NFL over the first 7 years of their career has more 4th quarter come from behind wins than Ben Roethlisberger. How do you do that if you are a turnover machine?

Makes no sense. But when you dont like something you tend to be a little skewed in your thinking.

williar
10-18-2011, 12:33 PM
Oh! I forgot to add:

- a turnover machine (Ben committs some of the dumbest, untimely, momentum changing turnovers I have ever seen)....


Ben is a turnover machine? Again..is this not an over-critical, over blown point of view? Ben's lifetime numbers dont suggest he is a turnover machine. And again...I would like to point out that no QB in the history of the NFL over the first 7 years of their career has more 4th quarter come from behind wins than Ben Roethlisberger. How do you do that if you are a turnover machine?

Makes no sense. But when you dont like something you tend to be a little skewed in your thinking.

Why is it necessary for someone to be a blindly in love with Ben? Why can't someone criticize Ben? Every other steeler is open to criticism, do you have a problem with that?

I love the steelers almost too much that is why I hate to see Ben F'n around... Your doggone right I going to criticize him or any other player when their F'n up.. I think Ben gets too much of a pass. And you are never going to hear me say we won anything because of Ben because I don't see it that way. Steelers won when they had Kordell Stewart. Yes! KORDELL STEWART!! Did we not go to two AFC championship games with Kordell? I know we didn't win but it just wasn't our time.... We went to a super bowl with Neil O'donell. So quit all of this ish about not winning until we got Ben! O'donnell performed better in his first superbowl than Ben did in his.

And Yes! No kidding... I would trade Ben right now for Cam Newton. Ben is almost 30. He ain't getting no better. He is what he is. Nothing I would love to have more is a fresh, young, talented qb with some coachable skills and not locked into bad habits....Ben ain't If Cam can produce on that scrub team, the panthers I'm sure he could play here too. Why do people think that Ben is the only QB who can succeed here?

grotonsteel
10-18-2011, 12:36 PM
This is exactly what I am talking about. This supposed Steeler fan says Ben is overrated. How can you be overrated when you have won two Super Bowls and 3 AFC Championship games when you play the most difficult/critical position on a football team?

And he says he would rather have Cam Newton over Ben Roethlisberger?

Unbelievable. :roll:

I guess you did not get the memo. Steelers win without Ben (They point to 3-1 record last season) but when Steelers lose its all because of Ben.

Defense can do no wrong even though Steelers FO spent truckload of money on Defense. It does not matter that you have injured players on O-line or 2 WRs who are playing their 2nd NFL season with missed OTA and TC or an aging WR or a running back who seems to be struggling. Steelers offense should score 40 points a game and if they don't do it its all on Ben no matter what happened in the game.

If you disagree with the above things you are a Ben fan and not a Steelers fan.

grotonsteel
10-18-2011, 12:41 PM
And Yes! No kidding... I would trade Ben right now for Cam Newton. Ben is almost 30. He ain't getting no better. He is what he is. Nothing I would love to have more is a fresh, young, talented qb with some coachable skills and not locked into bad habits....Ben ain't If Cam can produce on that scrub team, the panthers I'm sure he could play here too. Why do people think that Ben is the only QB who can succeed here?

Panther have a scrub team..maybe. But they have a great RB tandem in DeAngelo Williams and J-stew. Their O-line i think have 2-3 pro bowlers. They have Steve smith as a WR. They have Shockey and Olsen 2 1st RD TE picks. You think that is a scrub team on Offensive end???

Dee Dub
10-18-2011, 12:42 PM
Some folks don't really like Ben and never have.


Yep!! And those are the ones that I dont get.




Some folks put Ben on a pedestal and believe that criticizing him in any way is bashing.

I think this could be warranted based on what Ben has done for the franchise, the success that he has brought to the organization, and by the way he plays the game. He takes a beating, puts it all out on the field, never points fingers or makes excuses. He plays a lot of the time hurt, injured, or in a lot of pain. Yet wants to be out there no matter what.

I think Steeler fans criticizing Ben would be like 49er fans criticizing Joe Montana. It just doesnt seem right when you look at the big picture.



Some folks simply see Ben for what he is. A great QB, who sometimes plays poorly.

This is where I fit. I know he sometimes plays poorly. He's human. But I also know that more times than not his poor play is based on other factors. His offensive line is horrible and has been for several years. He has a core of young receivers who haven't gotten on the same page yet. His running game the past several years has been very inconsistent.
He has always played in an offense that has a run first mentality. Ben does not play in an offense that is spread out and designed to get rid of the ball quickly (Patriots, Saints, Packers, etc.). And with his offensive line and their inability to pass block that contributes heavily in his success or not. But I see that. I get it. And as a result because he has an off half of football or occasionally has a bad game, I am not going to come on this forum and criticize him as a QB.

Dee Dub
10-18-2011, 12:50 PM
And Yes! No kidding... I would trade Ben right now for Cam Newton. Ben is almost 30. He ain't getting no better. He is what he is. Nothing I would love to have more is a fresh, young, talented qb with some coachable skills and not locked into bad habits....Ben ain't If Cam can produce on that scrub team, the panthers I'm sure he could play here too. Why do people think that Ben is the only QB who can succeed here?

It's the numbers folks.Ding! Ding! Ding! He likes QB's who light up the scoreboard or throws for a lot of yards. But winning means very little. Cam Newton's team is 1-5 and Ben's team is 4-2. Cam Newton hasnt done anything in the NFL yet...except lose on a regular basis.

Gotta be a fantasy football fan. :roll:

You say..."Why do people think that Ben is the only QB who can succeed here?"

You must not have been around from 1983-2004.

Dee Dub
10-18-2011, 12:57 PM
Let's see...

Cam Newton's team is 1-5 and he has a...

58.5% completion percentage, 7 TD's, 9 INT's, and a QB rating of 78.3


Ben's team is 4-2 and he has a...

62.1% completion percentage, 9 TD's, 6 INT's, and a QB rating of 90.0*

*=all the while there has been a revolving door on his O-line this season.


Yeah...that makes a lot of sense.

You can have Cam Newton. I'll keep Ben.

williar
10-18-2011, 01:03 PM
And Yes! No kidding... I would trade Ben right now for Cam Newton. Ben is almost 30. He ain't getting no better. He is what he is. Nothing I would love to have more is a fresh, young, talented qb with some coachable skills and not locked into bad habits....Ben ain't If Cam can produce on that scrub team, the panthers I'm sure he could play here too. Why do people think that Ben is the only QB who can succeed here?

Panther have a scrub team..maybe. But they have a great RB tandem in DeAngelo Williams and J-stew. Their O-line i think have 2-3 pro bowlers. They have Steve smith as a WR. They have Shockey and Olsen 2 1st RD TE picks. You think that is a scrub team on Offensive end???

Yeah, and their defense is a joke. Ask Ben what it is like not to have a dominant defense to carry you to the promised land. Then again, he probably wouldn't know.. If Cam was on the steelers and Ben was on the panthers their records would probably still be the same.

Doogie36
10-18-2011, 01:09 PM
I dint have time to read all 3 pages of this post but if this is a repeat of someone else I'm sorry.

Ben is simply a WINNER! I say this time and time again! I'll take a WINNER over a STAT maker anyday of the week. Even the great Peyton Manning choked in the SUPERBOWL against the Saints. Drew Brees just choked this week against Tampa Bay by throwing that pick in the end zone.

Look at TEEBOW in Denver. He will never put up 400 yards passing but the guy somehow wins games. The energy of him gives the team a lift and he can win ball games! That's what BEN is for our team! He's one ugly QB at times and at other times hes running for a first down on a key 3rd down play!!!! He just did that this week! He finds ways to win and he utilizes ALL of his WR's. He spreads the ROCK around very well and he uses his legs and toughness like no other QB in this league.

If you want Drew, Manning, or even the great Tom Brady you will also have bad weeks and they will play badly as well from time to time. Brady was picked off 4 times in the loss to Buffalo. Dallas picked him off this past week and should of beat the PATS.

You take any win you can get in this league and you take a WINNING QB anyday of the week regardless of his numbers!!!

In BEN we TRUST! At least I do.

I say the same thing the first poster said! Who would you want? We can pick them all apart all day long! When was hte last time the GREAT BRADY won a superbowl?

Best QB in the league is RODGERS right now and he's had the joy of having Jennings, Driver, and Finley for how long now???? We have BROWN and SANDERS in their 2nd year and last year they barely played. We didnt have OTA's and Sanders missed traning camp...............Lets keep it real!!! We were pretty close to some big plays this past week and i'm encouraged that our guys were OPEN and we were TRYING for the big plays!!!!!!!!!!!

Lets go Steelers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It's not how you start! Its how you FINISH!!!!!!!!!!

We are starting to come together on the OLINE and the D is starting to play better as well!!! Our HORRIBLE CB"s aren't even being talked about and it was IKE who gave up the passing TD, not GAY or LEWIS...............that's encouraging!!!!

Stay positive Steeler Nation!!!!!!!! We have an easy schedule which gives us time to GEL and come together like we always do!!!!!! Once Ben puts on that GLOVE its OVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LOL

williar
10-18-2011, 01:23 PM
[quote="Dee Dub"]Let's see...

Cam Newton's team is 1-5 and he has a...

58.5% completion percentage, 7 TD's, 9 INT's, and a QB rating of 78.3


Ben's team is 4-2 and he has a...

62.1% completion percentage, 9 TD's, 6 INT's, and a QB rating of 90.0*

*=all the while there has been a revolving door on his O-line this season.

Yeah...that makes a lot of sense.

You can have Dude. I think the point your missing in all of this is that steeler fans want Ben to do well. When he performs well that usually means a victory for our team. You can't seperate the two. My main frustration with him is he has not evolved. An elite QB can carry an uplift a team with his play and leadership. Ben is not that guy and members of the blind ben brigade refuse to acknowlege it... This team does not win because of Ben's play, they succeed because they maintain great defenses. Everyone knows that... I'm sure Ben would tell you that himself over a few....

As Ben gets older and his sack absorbing, holding the ball habits that people call skills start to become more of a liability, what is he going to have to fall back on? Thankfully we still have a top 5 defense..

Sonny
10-18-2011, 01:27 PM
Come on with the "not a real fan" stuff. About as bad as someone calling you an anti-American because you criticize our government.

Williar posted a detailed explanation on why he is not a huge fan of Ben, while also answering the OP's question.

I don't see anyone engaging him in an argument.

To be fair, you have to see things both ways, and there are many positives in Ben's game to go along with the negatives, Williar, but you pretty much nailed his negatives.

His biggest one? His arrogance. His arrogance that he already had and how it grew even more with his very early success. Why should he work on his game if we are winning Super Bowls at 23? Try and think like he would.

I was hoping that losing the Super Bowl, combined with losing it to a younger QB who has surpassed him in everyone's eyes, would humble him and he would change and we would get to see the "new" Ben.

That remains to be seen. On the surface it may seem like no, he hasn't changed, but I will say when did we ever see him play like he did against the Titans? We aren't there so we can't say for sure if he is trying to become a better QB or not. We'll find out soon enough, because we couldn't really tell with how bad the line was to start the season.

LouSteel
10-18-2011, 01:32 PM
As Ben gets older and his sack absorbing, holding the ball habits that people call skills start to become more of a liability, what is he going to have to fall back on?

This is my #1 concern with Ben.

Much of his game comes from his physical game. He uses strength and speed to hang in and make splash plays. But what happens when the injuries catch up with him?

My biggest wish with Ben is that he would work a little harder on the mental aspects of being a quarterback. We've heard from inside and outside the organization that Ben works much harder in the weight room than in the film room.

If Ben could improve the mental side of his game, everyone wins...

Dee Dub
10-18-2011, 01:47 PM
News Flash!!! Ben's team is winning. They are 4-2. And they dont hand out trophy's in week 6. It's about getting better each week and playing your best ball at the end of the season. And that has pretty much been what Ben has been all about for the majority of his career.

But go ahead and be unhappy with his play. :wink:

papillon
10-18-2011, 01:52 PM
I've said this many times about Ben and it bears repeating again (maybe). Ben isn't going to be the Steeler quarterback for 15, 16, 17 years, hell, he may not make 10 or 11. But while he's here the Steelers are going to compete for playoff spots and Super Bowls. He isn't changing folks, if you want the robot quarterback playing for the Steelers Ben isn't your guy. You may as well watch something else on Sunday afternoon.

If, like me, however, you're interested in the Steelers winning as many games as possible and have a quarterback that never believes a game is over until the scoreboard reads 00:00 then Ben is your guy. It won't always be pretty (Super Bowl XLIII, last week's game, etc), but typically it's effective. It's maddening at times and this year is as maddening as it gets, but the beauty of it is that, as long as Ben has time, the ball and can win the game late, I believe that he will, regardless of how it gets done.

I am actually surprised (Houston game this year and last year's SB) when Ben doesn't produce the magic to win a game in which the Steelers are or were losing.

Forget what you know about how you think a quarterback should play and enjoy what Ben does, there isn't going to be another quarterback like him in a long time (Newton, maybe, but it's too early, he needs to win games). If you can't separate the fact that Ben is different than anyone who has ever played the quarterback position you are going to be a frustrated Steeler fan until he retired or sustains the career ending injury.

Jim McMahon comes to mind as the closest comparison; he wasn't pretty, he didn't put up great numbers, he loved his big uglies and the Bears were successful with him at quarterback (but, not nearly as successful as the Steelers and Ben).

Pappy

Dee Dub
10-18-2011, 01:53 PM
Williar posted a detailed explanation on why he is not a huge fan of Ben, while also answering the OP's question.

I don't see anyone engaging him in an argument.

His explantion was based on nothing substantial. Calling Ben a turnover machine is inaccuarate and false. His career numbers show otherwise.

Why argue something that doesnt consider the fact that Ben's current offensive line has been a revolving door this year.

Williar wants a rookie QB (Cam Newton), over Ben, who has a completion percentage of 58% and has thrown more INT's than TD's and whose team is a losing messarably at 1-5.

Sorry I can't argue with something like that.

Dee Dub
10-18-2011, 01:55 PM
I've said this many times about Ben and it bears repeating again (maybe). Ben isn't going to be the Steeler quarterback for 15, 15, 17 years, hell, he may not make 10 or 11. But while he's here the Steelers are going to compete for playoff spots and Super Bowls. He isn't changing folks, if you want the robot quarterback playing for the Steelers Ben isn't your guy. You may as well watch something else on Sunday afternoon.

If, like me, however, you're interested in the Steelers winning as many games as possible and have a quarterback that never believes a game is over until the scoreboard reads 00:00 then Ben is your guy. It won't always be pretty (Super Bowl XLIII, last week's game, etc), but typically it's effective. It's maddening at times and this year is as maddening as it gets, but the beauty of it is that, as long as Ben has time, the ball and can win the game late I believe that he will, regardless of how it gets done.

I am actually surprised (Houston game this year and last year's SB) when Ben doesn't produce the magic to win a game in which the Steelers are or were losing.

Forget what you know about how you think a quarterback should play and enjoy what Ben does, there isn't going to be another quarterback like him in a long time (Newton, maybe, but it's too early, he needs to win games). If you can't separate the fact that Ben is different than anyone who has ever played the quarterback position you are going to be a frustrated Steeler fan until he retired or sustains the career ending injury.

Jim McMahon comes to mind as the closest comparison; he wasn't pretty, he didn't put up great numbers, he loved his big uglies and the Bears were successful with him at quarterback (but, not nearly as successful as the Steelers and Ben).

Pappy


:Clap

Perfect Pap!! Flat out nailed it.

Sugar
10-18-2011, 01:59 PM
I'm surprised at all these people that say that Ben doesn't work on his game. It's not like he sat on his butt while he was suspended last year. He hired a coach and (at his own expense) worked on his mechanics and conditioning.

Sonny
10-18-2011, 02:00 PM
I do agree with the "when have you ever seen Ben take over a game" comment. Green Bay 09 sticks out in my memory, and you know why? Because it is so damn rare and there aren't many to choose from.

Brady, Brees, Manning, and now Rodgers do it on a regular basis.

I have never heard any announcer say "man Ben is just picking this defense apart like a surgeon out here" or "you're just not gonna stop a Ben Roethlisberger, you just have to find a way to contain him, because Ben will get his".

What do we always hear about our franchise quarterback? "Man Ben is just lethal on the run like that, you need to keep him in the pocket".

Most people here want the guy we saw against the Titans, which shows he does have the ability and can pick a defense apart.

BURGH86STEEL
10-18-2011, 02:09 PM
I've said this many times about Ben and it bears repeating again (maybe). Ben isn't going to be the Steeler quarterback for 15, 15, 17 years, hell, he may not make 10 or 11. But while he's here the Steelers are going to compete for playoff spots and Super Bowls. He isn't changing folks, if you want the robot quarterback playing for the Steelers Ben isn't your guy. You may as well watch something else on Sunday afternoon.

If, like me, however, you're interested in the Steelers winning as many games as possible and have a quarterback that never believes a game is over until the scoreboard reads 00:00 then Ben is your guy. It won't always be pretty (Super Bowl XLIII, last week's game, etc), but typically it's effective. It's maddening at times and this year is as maddening as it gets, but the beauty of it is that, as long as Ben has time, the ball and can win the game late I believe that he will, regardless of how it gets done.

I am actually surprised (Houston game this year and last year's SB) when Ben doesn't produce the magic to win a game in which the Steelers are or were losing.

Forget what you know about how you think a quarterback should play and enjoy what Ben does, there isn't going to be another quarterback like him in a long time (Newton, maybe, but it's too early, he needs to win games). If you can't separate the fact that Ben is different than anyone who has ever played the quarterback position you are going to be a frustrated Steeler fan until he retired or sustains the career ending injury.

Jim McMahon comes to mind as the closest comparison; he wasn't pretty, he didn't put up great numbers, he loved his big uglies and the Bears were successful with him at quarterback (but, not nearly as successful as the Steelers and Ben).

Pappy

The people that want more consistent scoring offense need to reach the same conclusion. When consistent Ben showed up, the offense looked great. When inconsistent Ben showed up, the offense struggled. I don't think fans want Ben off the team. I believe that most fans want more consistency out of Ben. More consistency can make the offense better and help to extend his career.

_SteeL_CurtaiN_
10-18-2011, 02:14 PM
Numbers do not lie...Ben is a GREAT QB! I will take two super bowls wins and another appearance in his FIRST 7-8 years.

Career
W/L : 83-34 ( .709 )
Rating : 92.3
TD : 153
INT : 92

Playoff Record as Starting QB:
2004 (1-1)
2005 (4-0)
2007 (0-1)
2008 (3-0)
2010 (2-1)

Playoff Comebacks:
2008 (1)
2004 (1)

Playoff Game-Winning Drives:
2010 (1)
2008 (1)
2004 (1)

Team Records Held By Ben

Career records

83-34 (.709) record as starting QB (includes a 10-3 playoff record)
.709 winning percentage is the highest among all Steelers QBs with at least 20 starts
Highest Passer Rating (Min. 100 attempts) ó 92.3
Highest Completion Percentage (Min. 100 attempts) ó 63.0%
Highest Yards Per Attempt (Min. 100 attempts) ó 8.04
Most 200+ Yard Passing Games ó 74 (includes eight playoff games)
Most 300+ Yard Passing Games ó 17 (includes one playoff game)
Most 400+ Yard Passing Games ó 3
Most 500+ Yard Passing Games ó 1
Most 3000-Yard Passing Seasons ó 5 (2006Ė2010)
Most Consecutive 3000-Yard Passing Seasons ó 5 (2006Ė2010)
Most 4000-Yard Passing Seasons ó 1 (2009)
Most 3+ TD Passing Games ó 19 (includes one playoff game)
Most 4+ TD Passing Games ó 4
Most 5+ TD Passing Games ó 2
Most Consecutive Games With a TD Pass ó 15 from 12/3/2006 - 11/18/2007
Most 4th Quarter Comeback Wins ó 20
Most Games with a Passer Rating over 100.0 - 44
Most Games with a Perfect Passer Rating ó 3
Most Games with 40+ Pass Attempts ó 15[139]
Most Games with 20+ Completions ó 36[140]
Most Games with 30+ Completions ó 5[141]
Most Games with Completion Percentage of at least 60% ó 70[142]
Most Games with Completion Percentage of at least 70% ó 29[143]

Season records

Highest Completion Percentage ó 66.6% (2009)
Most Touchdown Passes ó 32 (2007)
Highest Touchdown Pass Percentage ó 7.92% (2007)
Highest Yards Per Attempt ó 8.90 (2005)
Highest Passer Rating ó 104.1 (2007)
Most Passing Yards ó 4,328 (2009)
Most 200+ Yard Passing Games ó 13 (2009)
Most 300+ Yard Passing Games ó 5 (2009)[145]
Most 400+ Yard Passing Games ó 2 (2009)
Most 500+ Yard Passing Games ó 1 (2009)
Most 3+ TD Passing Games ó 5 (2007 & 2009)
(Tie) Most 4+ TD Passing Games ó 3 (2007)
Most Pass Completions ó 337 (2009)
Lowest Interception Percentage ó 1.29% (2010; 5 INTs on 389 attempts)
Fewest Interceptions (Min. 10 attempts/game) ó 5 (2010)



Who's more clutch?

Ben has a better playoff winning percentage than Brady and Manning.
Player Team Games Record
Ben Steelers 13 10-3
Brady Patriots 19 14-5
Manning Colts 19 9-10

grotonsteel
10-18-2011, 02:15 PM
Williar posted a detailed explanation on why he is not a huge fan of Ben, while also answering the OP's question.

I don't see anyone engaging him in an argument.

His explantion was based on nothing substantial. Calling Ben a turnover machine is inaccuarate and false. His career numbers show otherwise.

Why argue something that doesnt consider the fact that Ben's current offensive line has been a revolving door this year.

Williar wants a rookie QB (Cam Newton), over Ben, who has a completion percentage of 58% and has thrown more INT's than TD's and whose team is a losing messarably at 1-5.

Sorry I can't argue with something like that.

:Agree

He wants Ben to be replaced by Josh Freeman and Cam Newton...seriously???

How are the above mentioned QB different from Ben in their playing style.

Atleast he did not mentioned Sanchez in that list.

papillon
10-18-2011, 02:17 PM
I've said this many times about Ben and it bears repeating again (maybe). Ben isn't going to be the Steeler quarterback for 15, 15, 17 years, hell, he may not make 10 or 11. But while he's here the Steelers are going to compete for playoff spots and Super Bowls. He isn't changing folks, if you want the robot quarterback playing for the Steelers Ben isn't your guy. You may as well watch something else on Sunday afternoon.

If, like me, however, you're interested in the Steelers winning as many games as possible and have a quarterback that never believes a game is over until the scoreboard reads 00:00 then Ben is your guy. It won't always be pretty (Super Bowl XLIII, last week's game, etc), but typically it's effective. It's maddening at times and this year is as maddening as it gets, but the beauty of it is that, as long as Ben has time, the ball and can win the game late I believe that he will, regardless of how it gets done.

I am actually surprised (Houston game this year and last year's SB) when Ben doesn't produce the magic to win a game in which the Steelers are or were losing.

Forget what you know about how you think a quarterback should play and enjoy what Ben does, there isn't going to be another quarterback like him in a long time (Newton, maybe, but it's too early, he needs to win games). If you can't separate the fact that Ben is different than anyone who has ever played the quarterback position you are going to be a frustrated Steeler fan until he retired or sustains the career ending injury.

Jim McMahon comes to mind as the closest comparison; he wasn't pretty, he didn't put up great numbers, he loved his big uglies and the Bears were successful with him at quarterback (but, not nearly as successful as the Steelers and Ben).

Pappy


:Clap

Perfect Pap!! Flat out nailed it.

Once in awhile even the blind squirrels, well, you know how the saying goes. Early on I was wondering if Ben was going to be the quarterback that the Steelers needed, he seemed reckless, aloof, and not really interested in being the best that he could be. Then the revelation hit me that I needed to enjoy this, because, the Steelers were winning games, getting into the playoffs and winning SBs with this unorthodox quarterback and to forget what I thought was how to play the position.

I can't even begin to tell you how much fun it is for watching Ben play, even when he plays bad (last week), because, he leaves you with the feeling that he can win the game if you give him the chance and more often than not, that is the case.

Steeler football has never been so exciting for me to watch and the includes the 70s.

Steeler football won't be as much fun for me the day Ben retires.

Pappy

williar
10-18-2011, 02:22 PM
Williar posted a detailed explanation on why he is not a huge fan of Ben, while also answering the OP's question.

I don't see anyone engaging him in an argument.

His explantion was based on nothing substantial. Calling Ben a turnover machine is inaccuarate and false. His career numbers show otherwise.

Why argue something that doesnt consider the fact that Ben's current offensive line has been a revolving door this year.

Williar wants a rookie QB (Cam Newton), over Ben, who has a completion percentage of 58% and has thrown more INT's than TD's and whose team is a losing messarably at 1-5.

Sorry I can't argue with something like that.

You don't have to argue. It is all based on preferences. Some will agree with you. Some will agree with me. So don't try to insinuate that you have some expertise. Some believe Ben is elite, I just happen to be one who doesn't believe that he is and there are QB's that play in the NFL with better skills that are being utilized to the fullest..

And don't be mad because Cam Newton is proving you a fool.... I'm sure you were one of the ones that said he'd suck in the NFL. No, I don't know that you did. Just with your comments you seem like the type..

feltdizz
10-18-2011, 02:27 PM
The argument about Ben being elite, great, good etc.. can be argued all day long...

I think the real issue is when Ben isn't playing elite, great, good etc... if fans can't speak on it or criticize him when he is off his game on a message board we need to shut this thing down right now.

No one is arguing with Ben's past accomplishments or his off field troubles. All they are doing is wondering why he isn't playing up to his ability and showing their frustration. What's so bad about that? Some people give Ben all the credit in W's but want no part of the "credit" in a loss when discussing why or how we got to this place.

This year... Ben IS a turnover machine... if you don't like it you better pray to the Steeler Gods Ben turns it around. You can't expect fans to slobber over a QB when he is having this kind of year...

Just play better.. that's the only way to quiet those who say he is inconsistent.

papillon
10-18-2011, 02:32 PM
I've said this many times about Ben and it bears repeating again (maybe). Ben isn't going to be the Steeler quarterback for 15, 15, 17 years, hell, he may not make 10 or 11. But while he's here the Steelers are going to compete for playoff spots and Super Bowls. He isn't changing folks, if you want the robot quarterback playing for the Steelers Ben isn't your guy. You may as well watch something else on Sunday afternoon.

If, like me, however, you're interested in the Steelers winning as many games as possible and have a quarterback that never believes a game is over until the scoreboard reads 00:00 then Ben is your guy. It won't always be pretty (Super Bowl XLIII, last week's game, etc), but typically it's effective. It's maddening at times and this year is as maddening as it gets, but the beauty of it is that, as long as Ben has time, the ball and can win the game late I believe that he will, regardless of how it gets done.

I am actually surprised (Houston game this year and last year's SB) when Ben doesn't produce the magic to win a game in which the Steelers are or were losing.

Forget what you know about how you think a quarterback should play and enjoy what Ben does, there isn't going to be another quarterback like him in a long time (Newton, maybe, but it's too early, he needs to win games). If you can't separate the fact that Ben is different than anyone who has ever played the quarterback position you are going to be a frustrated Steeler fan until he retired or sustains the career ending injury.

Jim McMahon comes to mind as the closest comparison; he wasn't pretty, he didn't put up great numbers, he loved his big uglies and the Bears were successful with him at quarterback (but, not nearly as successful as the Steelers and Ben).

Pappy

The people that want more consistent scoring offense need to reach the same conclusion. When consistent Ben showed up, the offense looked great. When inconsistent Ben showed up, the offense struggled. I don't think fans want Ben off the team. I believe that most fans want more consistency out of Ben. More consistency can make the offense better and help to extend his career.

I guess that's my point exactly. Ben's style doesn't lead to consistency on the stat sheet or necessarily on the field, but it does lead to consistency in the win column for the most part. The Steeler offense will never resemble Green Bay's, New England's, New Orlean's, etc., but it will be successful enough for the Steelers to win a lot of games and be in playoff contention.

Pappy

_SteeL_CurtaiN_
10-18-2011, 02:39 PM
I guess that's my point exactly. Ben's style doesn't lead to consistency on the stat sheet or necessarily on the field, but it does lead to consistency in the win column for the most part. The Steeler offense will never resemble Green Bay's, New England's, New Orlean's, etc., but it will be successful enough for the Steelers to win a lot of games and be in playoff contention.

Pappy


83 out of 117 to be exact! The man JUST WINS and isn't that what REALLY matters? I don't care how it gets done just get it done. The man has nothing to prove with regards to his football abilities, and imagine this, Ben with an offensive line that could you know actually form a pocket...

williar
10-18-2011, 02:41 PM
I'm surprised at all these people that say that Ben doesn't work on his game. It's not like he sat on his butt while he was suspended last year. He hired a coach and (at his own expense) worked on his mechanics and conditioning.

Whatever work he is doing, he isn't doing enough of it. It is sad to see the lack of chemistry with his young receivers. Do you think Brady, Rogers, or Manning would be wasting all of that talent. Do you think these guys are going to want to hang around when their contracts are up if their QB isn't showing any interest in working with them to develop some chemistry. I shudder to think what a truly elite QB would doing if he had Wallace, Brown, and Sanders at his disposal...

_SteeL_CurtaiN_
10-18-2011, 02:51 PM
Can you imagine if Brady, Manning or some other elite QB had these weapons we have on our offense? Brady would be scooring 50 points a game. Do you think Brady or Brees would be constantly missing wide open receivers down field and then talking about it was the wind? Dude please!!!!


Could you imagine Brady or Manning with THIS offensive line? Come on we all know that these two pre-madonnas would be broken like twigs with this protection.





To answer some of your questions, here are some of my problems with Ben's play.
- very inconsistent, eratic play
- displays poor decision making
- poor fundementals
- doesn't have killer instinct, or a scorers mentality (see last game and many others)
- this guy loses focus and intensity with a 10 point lead.
- lacks intensity and urgency (no way you go a half against a team like jacksonville without putting any points on the board).
- average arm
- not a very accurate passer
- poor deep ball passer
- slow mechanics, holds the ball too long
- not very smart, relies too much on his toughness and physical skills.
- has not proven himself successful without a great defense.
- sucked in 2 out of 3 super bowls. One was a bordeline performance with the exception of one great drive aided by MVP Santonio Holmes.


These are opinions not facts, Ben's stats do not support your opinion.
No killer instinct? Loses focus? Correct me if I am wrong but are there 11 Ben's on the field or 1?



And don't be mad because Cam Newton is proving you a fool.... I'm sure you were one of the ones that said he'd suck in the NFL. No, I don't know that you did. Just with your comments you seem like the type..[/quote]

Are you serious? You want Cam Newton ?!?!?! :wft What has he won besides ONE game? These seem to be the arguments of a hater, your critique is so fatally flawed with perceived weakness you fail to recognize the fact that the ONE thing that Ben does as well as any QB in the NFL is WIN FOOTBALL GAMES.

Slapstick
10-18-2011, 02:52 PM
Whatever work he is doing, he isn't doing enough of it. It is sad to see the lack of chemistry with his young receivers. Do you think Brady, Rogers, or Manning would be wasting all of that talent. Do you think these guys are going to want to hang around when their contracts are up if their QB isn't showing any interest in working with them to develop some chemistry. I shudder to think what a truly elite QB would doing if he had Wallace, Brown, and Sanders at his disposal...

Umm...Wallace is averaging over 100 yards per game and is scoring TDs at a good clip...

Brown and Sanders, at this point, drop as many passes as they catch...

So, I imagine that one of those "truly elite QBs" would be doing the same thing with Wallace, Sanders and Brown...

Steelers>NFL
10-18-2011, 02:57 PM
I'm surprised at all these people that say that Ben doesn't work on his game. It's not like he sat on his butt while he was suspended last year. He hired a coach and (at his own expense) worked on his mechanics and conditioning.

Ben also kissed Arian's a$$ in the offseason to comeback and call the plays this year.
Arians was on his way to retirement.

williar
10-18-2011, 04:09 PM
Whatever work he is doing, he isn't doing enough of it. It is sad to see the lack of chemistry with his young receivers. Do you think Brady, Rogers, or Manning would be wasting all of that talent. Do you think these guys are going to want to hang around when their contracts are up if their QB isn't showing any interest in working with them to develop some chemistry. I shudder to think what a truly elite QB would doing if he had Wallace, Brown, and Sanders at his disposal...

Umm...Wallace is averaging over 100 yards per game and is scoring TDs at a good clip...

Brown and Sanders, at this point, drop as many passes as they catch...

So, I imagine that one of those "truly elite QBs" would be doing the same thing with Wallace, Sanders and Brown...

They wouldn't be over and under throwing them.... and as far as Wallace, this dude is open on every play. I guess completing 2 out of 10 is not too shabby, ehh..

grotonsteel
10-18-2011, 04:15 PM
Whatever work he is doing, he isn't doing enough of it. It is sad to see the lack of chemistry with his young receivers. Do you think Brady, Rogers, or Manning would be wasting all of that talent. Do you think these guys are going to want to hang around when their contracts are up if their QB isn't showing any interest in working with them to develop some chemistry. I shudder to think what a truly elite QB would doing if he had Wallace, Brown, and Sanders at his disposal...

Umm...Wallace is averaging over 100 yards per game and is scoring TDs at a good clip...

Brown and Sanders, at this point, drop as many passes as they catch...

So, I imagine that one of those "truly elite QBs" would be doing the same thing with Wallace, Sanders and Brown...

They wouldn't be over and under throwing them.... and as far as Wallace, this dude is open on every play. I guess completing 2 out of 10 is not too shabby, ehh..

Can you prove that Wallace is open on all the plays or you are assuming he is open on all the plays??

ikestops85
10-18-2011, 04:19 PM
News Flash!!! Ben's team is winning. They are 4-2. And they dont hand out trophy's in week 6. It's about getting better each week and playing your best ball at the end of the season. And that has pretty much been what Ben has been all about for the majority of his career.

But go ahead and be unhappy with his play. :wink:

See Dee Dub ... this is where you lose me. Yes, the team is winning but why does that mean I have to be happy about the way Ben is playing? The defense is ranked 2nd in the league ... we are 4-2 and yet I'm not happy with how they are playing either.

Just because I don't think Ben is playing up to his ability does not mean I want to get rid of him. It doesn't mean I want to bench him. Ben, for all of his faults, is the guy who gets our motor going. He is the sparkplug for this team. When he is out on the field we know we have a chance to win. His play reminds me a lot of Brett Favre. He has that gunslinger mentality ... he will make his mistakes but he provides the ability to overcome the entire team's mistakes.

We have lost to the 2 decent teams we have played so far this year. 3 of the 4 victories were against the dregs of the league. If we are going to compete for the title this year then there are facets of our game that are going to have to improve a lot. Ben's play at QB is one those facets. I don't think it's a bad thing to recognize that.

williar
10-18-2011, 04:23 PM
Can you imagine if Brady, Manning or some other elite QB had these weapons we have on our offense? Brady would be scooring 50 points a game. Do you think Brady or Brees would be constantly missing wide open receivers down field and then talking about it was the wind? Dude please!!!!


Could you imagine Brady or Manning with THIS offensive line? Come on we all know that these two pre-madonnas would be broken like twigs with this protection.





To answer some of your questions, here are some of my problems with Ben's play.
- very inconsistent, eratic play
- displays poor decision making
- poor fundementals
- doesn't have killer instinct, or a scorers mentality (see last game and many others)
- this guy loses focus and intensity with a 10 point lead.
- lacks intensity and urgency (no way you go a half against a team like jacksonville without putting any points on the board).
- average arm
- not a very accurate passer
- poor deep ball passer
- slow mechanics, holds the ball too long
- not very smart, relies too much on his toughness and physical skills.
- has not proven himself successful without a great defense.
- sucked in 2 out of 3 super bowls. One was a bordeline performance with the exception of one great drive aided by MVP Santonio Holmes.


These are opinions not facts, Ben's stats do not support your opinion.
No killer instinct? Loses focus? Correct me if I am wrong but are there 11 Ben's on the field or 1?



And don't be mad because Cam Newton is proving you a fool.... I'm sure you were one of the ones that said he'd suck in the NFL. No, I don't know that you did. Just with your comments you seem like the type..

Are you serious? You want Cam Newton ?!?!?! :wft What has he won besides ONE game? These seem to be the arguments of a hater, your critique is so fatally flawed with perceived weakness you fail to recognize the fact that the ONE thing that Ben does as well as any QB in the NFL is WIN FOOTBALL GAMES.[/quote]

Yes! Please forgive me for understanding that quarterbacks don't begin and end with Ben Roethisberger. Excuse me, but there are other quarterbacks in the nfl that perform their job as well, if not better than Ben does. I guess I'll just have to be perceived as crazy for thinking that. All I want my QB to do is put points on the board. Last time I checked Cam was doing a pretty good job of doing that. So far, I haven't seen anything Ben is doing that Cam Newton isn't doing better.

Ben is embarking on the downside of his career. He's maxed out. He ain't changing and because of that stink attitude, he hasn't gotten any better. He is what he is... I sure would drop his butt in a heartbeat if I could catch a QB on the rise like Cam Newton. And don't believe their aren't many others who aren't too busy gulping up the Ben kool aid that wouldn't do the same.

Ben is not a great QB.... I swear this board must be full of 15 year olds.

williar
10-18-2011, 04:31 PM
Whatever work he is doing, he isn't doing enough of it. It is sad to see the lack of chemistry with his young receivers. Do you think Brady, Rogers, or Manning would be wasting all of that talent. Do you think these guys are going to want to hang around when their contracts are up if their QB isn't showing any interest in working with them to develop some chemistry. I shudder to think what a truly elite QB would doing if he had Wallace, Brown, and Sanders at his disposal...

Umm...Wallace is averaging over 100 yards per game and is scoring TDs at a good clip...

Brown and Sanders, at this point, drop as many passes as they catch...

So, I imagine that one of those "truly elite QBs" would be doing the same thing with Wallace, Sanders and Brown...

They wouldn't be over and under throwing them.... and as far as Wallace, this dude is open on every play. I guess completing 2 out of 10 is not too shabby, ehh..

Can you prove that Wallace is open on all the plays or you are assuming he is open on all the plays??

Can you prove that he's not? Can you prove that Brown and Sanders drop as many passes as they catch? Can you prove that Ben is an elite QB and just not riding the coattails of his defense? How many games has this team won when the defense gives up more than 24 points?

_SteeL_CurtaiN_
10-18-2011, 04:35 PM
Yes! Please forgive me for understanding that quarterbacks don't begin and end with Ben Roethisberger. Excuse me, but there are other quarterbacks in the nfl that perform their job as well, if not better than Ben does. I guess I'll just have to be perceived as crazy for thinking that. All I want my QB to do is put points on the board. Last time I checked Cam was doing a pretty good job of doing that. So far, I haven't seen anything Ben is doing that Cam Newton isn't doing better.

Ben is embarking on the downside of his career. He's maxed out. He ain't changing and because of that stink attitude, he hasn't gotten any better. He is what he is... I sure would drop his butt in a heartbeat if I could catch a QB on the rise like Cam Newton. And don't believe their aren't many others who aren't too busy gulping up the Ben kool aid that wouldn't do the same.

Ben is not a great QB.... I swear this board must be full of 15 year olds.


WOW, the pot calls the kettle black. You have an opinion that Ben is not elite. You have no facts to back up the claim only your OPINION. The only 15 year old is emanating from your I'm right and your wrong attitude. Winning games is the lithest test fro elite qb's imo and using that criteria Ben is. If you want an unproven never won anything rookie as your qb that's fine but don't present your opinion as fact and expect no one to call it out.

How about answering this one...

Could you imagine Brady or Manning with THIS offensive line?

ikestops85
10-18-2011, 04:50 PM
Yes! Please forgive me for understanding that quarterbacks don't begin and end with Ben Roethisberger. Excuse me, but there are other quarterbacks in the nfl that perform their job as well, if not better than Ben does. I guess I'll just have to be perceived as crazy for thinking that. All I want my QB to do is put points on the board. Last time I checked Cam was doing a pretty good job of doing that. So far, I haven't seen anything Ben is doing that Cam Newton isn't doing better.

Ben is embarking on the downside of his career. He's maxed out. He ain't changing and because of that stink attitude, he hasn't gotten any better. He is what he is... I sure would drop his butt in a heartbeat if I could catch a QB on the rise like Cam Newton. And don't believe their aren't many others who aren't too busy gulping up the Ben kool aid that wouldn't do the same.

Ben is not a great QB.... I swear this board must be full of 15 year olds.

While I don't think Ben is playing his best football right now I haven't seen anything Cam Newton does that is better than Ben except run with the ball. Newton has a ways to go before he has proven anything. Right now he is the 'flavor of the month' just like Derek Anderson was a few years ago in Cleveland. Is Anderson even still in the league?

Why do you think Ben is on the downside of his career? He is not even 30 yet. It used to be that teams gave QBs five, that's right, five years to develop. Ben isn't near the apex of his career yet ... and he is still growing. I would really like to see what Ben is capable of doing if he had a great offensive coordinator. Manning and Brady have both been blessed with having very good coordinators and it shows in their play.

You may think that Ben isn't a good QB but you have to admit he is exciting. While it seems like we always have a good defense I still remember the days when we were down by 10 points the game was over. Our offense was very consistent in those days ... consistently boring. At least now, with Ben, we always have a chance.

williar
10-18-2011, 04:59 PM
Yes! Please forgive me for understanding that quarterbacks don't begin and end with Ben Roethisberger. Excuse me, but there are other quarterbacks in the nfl that perform their job as well, if not better than Ben does. I guess I'll just have to be perceived as crazy for thinking that. All I want my QB to do is put points on the board. Last time I checked Cam was doing a pretty good job of doing that. So far, I haven't seen anything Ben is doing that Cam Newton isn't doing better.

Ben is embarking on the downside of his career. He's maxed out. He ain't changing and because of that stink attitude, he hasn't gotten any better. He is what he is... I sure would drop his butt in a heartbeat if I could catch a QB on the rise like Cam Newton. And don't believe their aren't many others who aren't too busy gulping up the Ben kool aid that wouldn't do the same.

Ben is not a great QB.... I swear this board must be full of 15 year olds.


WOW, the pot calls the kettle black. You have an opinion that Ben is not elite. You have no facts to back up the claim only your OPINION. The only 15 year old is emanating from your I'm right and your wrong attitude. Winning games is the lithest test fro elite qb's imo and using that criteria Ben is. If you want an unproven never won anything rookie as your qb that's fine but don't present your opinion as fact and expect no one to call it out.

How about answering this one...

Could you imagine Brady or Manning with THIS offensive line?

I sure could... Manning's line isn't as good as most people thought. Manning is just a master at making quick decisions and getting rid of the ball. He would be the same Manning as he is now because most offenses are built around the skills of their quarterbacks, not the other way around. The same with Brady, whose game is different than Manning's albeit disciplined and built around precision and timing. QB's build their offenses. Our offense would reflect that of its QB and the OL are set up to protect the QB as such. Manning and Brady are great because they have work on their craft and that is reflected in the way they play. Their teams are great because they are great, not the other way around like in Ben's case.

grotonsteel
10-18-2011, 05:03 PM
Whatever work he is doing, he isn't doing enough of it. It is sad to see the lack of chemistry with his young receivers. Do you think Brady, Rogers, or Manning would be wasting all of that talent. Do you think these guys are going to want to hang around when their contracts are up if their QB isn't showing any interest in working with them to develop some chemistry. I shudder to think what a truly elite QB would doing if he had Wallace, Brown, and Sanders at his disposal...

Umm...Wallace is averaging over 100 yards per game and is scoring TDs at a good clip...

Brown and Sanders, at this point, drop as many passes as they catch...

So, I imagine that one of those "truly elite QBs" would be doing the same thing with Wallace, Sanders and Brown...

They wouldn't be over and under throwing them.... and as far as Wallace, this dude is open on every play. I guess completing 2 out of 10 is not too shabby, ehh..

Can you prove that Wallace is open on all the plays or you are assuming he is open on all the plays??

Can you prove that he's not? Can you prove that Brown and Sanders drop as many passes as they catch? Can you prove that Ben is an elite QB and just not riding the coattails of his defense? How many games has this team won when the defense gives up more than 24 points?

You don't have one stat to back you claim that Ben sucks or the QB that you listed are better and you are asking me stats???? :lol: :lol:

And if you need Ben's Career stats for reference...if you can read that is a big if then just go through this thread you will find stats about Ben. Don't be so lazy. Maybe you need to stop snow boarding and start watching Steelers games.

williar
10-18-2011, 05:16 PM
You don't have one stat to back you claim that Ben sucks or the QB that you listed are better and you are asking me stats???? :lol: :lol:

And if you need Ben's Career stats for reference...if you can read that is a big if then just go through this thread you will find stats about Ben. Don't be so lazy. Maybe you need to stop snow boarding and start watching Steelers games.[/quote]

I never said that I did.... I am not interested in looking at Ben's stats or anyone elses for that matter. Do I need to look at a stat to tell me that Ben was inefficient in the second half of the game last Sunday. Do I need a stat to tell me that Tom Brady is a damn good QB? Hell, he's winning with Wes Welker and Deion Branch, both 5' 8" as his starting receivers. I don't even know who his running back is... Do I need a stat sheet to tell me that Aaron Rogers out performed Ben in the super bowl. Stats are for losers........... Do I need a stat to tell me that Ben is better when he doesn't hold the ball and take sacks..

You give me some game film to watch between two QB's and I will tell you who the better quarterback is without ever looking at a stat.... I promise you I will...

ikestops85
10-18-2011, 05:22 PM
[Can you prove that he's not? Can you prove that Brown and Sanders drop as many passes as they catch? Can you prove that Ben is an elite QB and just not riding the coattails of his defense? How many games has this team won when the defense gives up more than 24 points?

2004 - 2 games
2005 - 0 games
2006 - 1 game
2007 - 2 games
2008 - 2 games
2009 - 3 games
2010 - 1 game

When our D gives up 24 or more points. Now what?

williar
10-18-2011, 05:27 PM
[Can you prove that he's not? Can you prove that Brown and Sanders drop as many passes as they catch? Can you prove that Ben is an elite QB and just not riding the coattails of his defense? How many games has this team won when the defense gives up more than 24 points?

2004 - 2 games
2005 - 0 games
2006 - 1 game
2007 - 2 games
2008 - 2 games
2009 - 3 games
2010 - 1 game


When our D gives up 24 or more points. Now what?

Just what I thought. We don't win many games when our defense doesn't lock the other team down. I probably could have said 17 points and got the same results. This simply tells me that with our QB getting into a shootout is out of the question we won't win too many of those.

williar
10-18-2011, 06:01 PM
Yes! Please forgive me for understanding that quarterbacks don't begin and end with Ben Roethisberger. Excuse me, but there are other quarterbacks in the nfl that perform their job as well, if not better than Ben does. I guess I'll just have to be perceived as crazy for thinking that. All I want my QB to do is put points on the board. Last time I checked Cam was doing a pretty good job of doing that. So far, I haven't seen anything Ben is doing that Cam Newton isn't doing better.

Ben is embarking on the downside of his career. He's maxed out. He ain't changing and because of that stink attitude, he hasn't gotten any better. He is what he is... I sure would drop his butt in a heartbeat if I could catch a QB on the rise like Cam Newton. And don't believe their aren't many others who aren't too busy gulping up the Ben kool aid that wouldn't do the same.

Ben is not a great QB.... I swear this board must be full of 15 year olds.

While I don't think Ben is playing his best football right now I haven't seen anything Cam Newton does that is better than Ben except run with the ball. Newton has a ways to go before he has proven anything. Right now he is the 'flavor of the month' just like Derek Anderson was a few years ago in Cleveland. Is Anderson even still in the league?

Why do you think Ben is on the downside of his career? He is not even 30 yet. It used to be that teams gave QBs five, that's right, five years to develop. Ben isn't near the apex of his career yet ... and he is still growing. I would really like to see what Ben is capable of doing if he had a great offensive coordinator. Manning and Brady have both been blessed with having very good coordinators and it shows in their play.

You may think that Ben isn't a good QB but you have to admit he is exciting. While it seems like we always have a good defense I still remember the days when we were down by 10 points the game was over. Our offense was very consistent in those days ... consistently boring. At least now, with Ben, we always have a chance.

I understand that Newton still has much to prove. I was just using him as an example of a young, upstart qb who has came on the seen and impressed me. Kind of like Ben did 8 years ago. I love what he's doing because so many people doubted him. If this kid keeps his head on straight and continues to allow himself to learn and grow, the sky is the limit.

As someone said earlier, I think Ben winning the super bowl so young has stunted his growth as a QB. He became arrogant and felt like he didn't need to improve his game. As far as feeling that Ben is maxed out has alot to do with the above statement. From what I see Ben has done nothing to improve his game and I have watch him since he took his first snap. Yes, he has had success mainly due to him coming into a very good situation with the steelers. But as a QB his game has not evolved they way I had envisioned.

The only thing that Ben's game has consistently proven to me is if this team does not keep a lock down defense, Ben and his skills alone cannot carry a team. Dude just cannot consistently put enough points on the board to carry a team like the elite QB's do.

(Disclaimer) Yes, this IS opinion and not fact... This is based on many years of close observation.

Dee Dub
10-18-2011, 06:43 PM
...And don't be mad because Cam Newton is proving you a fool.... I'm sure you were one of the ones that said he'd suck in the NFL. No, I don't know that you did. Just with your comments you seem like the type..

Are you serious? What has Cam Newton done? I wouldn't say this sucks but it sure isn't all that good...

1-5 team record, 58.5% completion percentage, 7 TD's, 9 INT's, and a QB rating of 78.3

Dee Dub
10-18-2011, 06:49 PM
The argument about Ben being elite, great, good etc.. can be argued all day long...

I think the real issue is when Ben isn't playing elite, great, good etc... if fans can't speak on it or criticize him when he is off his game on a message board we need to shut this thing down right now.

No one is arguing with Ben's past accomplishments or his off field troubles. All they are doing is wondering why he isn't playing up to his ability and showing their frustration. What's so bad about that? Some people give Ben all the credit in W's but want no part of the "credit" in a loss when discussing why or how we got to this place.

This year... Ben IS a turnover machine... if you don't like it you better pray to the Steeler Gods Ben turns it around. You can't expect fans to slobber over a QB when he is having this kind of year...

Just play better.. that's the only way to quiet those who say he is inconsistent.

No that isnt the issue. I think it is unfair when you criticize Ben but yet totally ignore the fact that his O-line has had a revolving door on it this season, the running game has been hit or miss, and some of his young receivers have struggled to get open and or pick up blitz reads, and also Ben has been hurt/injured a big chunk of this season. These things play a huge role in whether or not Ben plays successful. We are blessed with a QB who has been able to overcome these things more often than not but he can't do it all the time.

If you are going to criticize him be fair about it. Otherwise you come off as a hater. It's pretty obvious.

Dee Dub
10-18-2011, 07:07 PM
News Flash!!! Ben's team is winning. They are 4-2. And they dont hand out trophy's in week 6. It's about getting better each week and playing your best ball at the end of the season. And that has pretty much been what Ben has been all about for the majority of his career.

But go ahead and be unhappy with his play. :wink:

See Dee Dub ... this is where you lose me. Yes, the team is winning but why does that mean I have to be happy about the way Ben is playing? The defense is ranked 2nd in the league ... we are 4-2 and yet I'm not happy with how they are playing either.

Just because I don't think Ben is playing up to his ability does not mean I want to get rid of him. It doesn't mean I want to bench him. Ben, for all of his faults, is the guy who gets our motor going. He is the sparkplug for this team. When he is out on the field we know we have a chance to win. His play reminds me a lot of Brett Favre. He has that gunslinger mentality ... he will make his mistakes but he provides the ability to overcome the entire team's mistakes.

We have lost to the 2 decent teams we have played so far this year. 3 of the 4 victories were against the dregs of the league. If we are going to compete for the title this year then there are facets of our game that are going to have to improve a lot. Ben's play at QB is one those facets. I don't think it's a bad thing to recognize that.

I'm not happy with his play either. And neither is he. But....I think it is unfair to criticize him with the surrounding conditions he has right now. And keeping into consideration what he has done for this franchise.

Let me ask you this....if the O-line improves some and his young receivers improve some...and the teams running game picks up some...do you not expect Ben to play better?

You can bank on it.

But to expect him to play better if these things dont...that to me is not being fair or realistic.

williar
10-18-2011, 07:24 PM
DeeDub! You need to calm down some. Why all the hate just because some fans don't think that Ben is as great as you do? I'm not saying the dude is chopped liver- I'm just saying if Ben doesn't somehow, someway decide to step up his game in the next few weeks we are going to be toast going forward. Our defense is still good but it isn't what it used to be. You have to consistently put points on the board if you want to compete with the elite teams. Right now, nobody knows what Ben is going to show up when or where. That's quite frustrating.......

BradshawsHairdresser
10-18-2011, 07:28 PM
I'm not happy with his play either.

Now you've just contradicted your opening post of this thread, where you wrote:


There seems to be a lot of unhappy Steelers fans who are unsatisfied with Ben and his quarterback play. What do you want then? Tells us. Just come out and say it. Stop with the Ben bashing and tell us who you want as the QB of the Pittsburgh Steelers.

and

Some people just can never be happy or satisfied. Some people just dont realize what they really have sometimes.

First, you write that we should be satisfied, happy with Ben's play...now, you write that you're not happy with his play. Which is it?



But....I think it is unfair to criticize him with the surrounding conditions he has right now. And keeping into consideration what he has done for this franchise.

Let me ask you this....if the O-line improves some and his young receivers improve some...and the teams running game picks up some...do you not expect Ben to play better?

You can bank on it.

But to expect him to play better if these things dont...that to me is not being fair or realistic.

Ben has done better in the past with worse receivers, worse running game, and arguably, just as crappy an O-line. I don't think it's too unrealistic to expect him to play up to his capability, as he has done in the past.

eniparadoxgma
10-18-2011, 07:40 PM
Ben is not a great QB.... I swear this board must be full of 15 year olds.

What is it you care so much about, since it's obviously not winning? Style points? Fantasy football stats?

Don't spout the "I just want him to get better" spiel either. The numbers...the important numbers...(which I define as wins/losses and especially Super Bowl wins)...say that Yes, Ben is Great. At Winning.

Sure, I hope he gets better. I hope he has a 100% completion percentage, a YPA of 150 and wins every Super Bowl from now until he dies at the age of 150. However, considering his track record so far I think we're pretty lucky to have him. Period.

williar
10-18-2011, 08:25 PM
Ben is not a great QB.... I swear this board must be full of 15 year olds.

What is it you care so much about, since it's obviously not winning? Style points? Fantasy football stats?
Don't spout the "I just want him to get better" spiel either. The numbers...the important numbers...(which I define as wins/losses and especially Super Bowl wins)...say that Yes, Ben is Great. At Winning.

Sure, I hope he gets better. I hope he has a 100% completion percentage, a YPA of 150 and wins every Super Bowl from now until he dies at the age of 150. However, considering his track record so far I think we're pretty lucky to have him. Period.

Well, we didn't win SB45. I'm still angry about that.... We haven't beat a really good team yet this year. So I am concerned that we are not really that good. Our QB still has too many, I'm playing stupid days. That concerns me because I really think he's dealing with a professional identity crisis. We're just about a quarter of the way through the season and our QB has had one good game since, I don't know when. We are winning, yeah a little. But I still think we are too reliant on our defense.

Those are a few of my concerns O' Great One..... You think maybe you can tell me Almighty, when Our great QB will actually be GREAT???

Dee Dub
10-18-2011, 08:27 PM
DeeDub! You need to calm down some. Why all the hate just because some fans don't think that Ben is as great as you do? I'm not saying the dude is chopped liver- I'm just saying if Ben doesn't somehow, someway decide to step up his game in the next few weeks we are going to be toast going forward. Our defense is still good but it isn't what it used to be. You have to consistently put points on the board if you want to compete with the elite teams. Right now, nobody knows what Ben is going to show up when or where. That's quite frustrating.......

Brother if I have come off as showing hate..I apologize. Not sure where you get that from though? This is just a discussion/disagreement. I dont have a hateful bone in my body.

Dee Dub
10-18-2011, 08:31 PM
[quote=Dee Dub]

I'm not happy with his play either.

Now you've just contradicted your opening post of this thread, where you wrote:


There seems to be a lot of unhappy Steelers fans who are unsatisfied with Ben and his quarterback play. What do you want then? Tells us. Just come out and say it. Stop with the Ben bashing and tell us who you want as the QB of the Pittsburgh Steelers.[/quote:34lo66vs]

I dont think that I have contradicted myself. Every player that has played the game has areas where they could improve. And I'll admit there are times when Ben makes plays that he shouldn't....but...I refuse to criticize him. His poor play this year is more of a result of what is happening around him than he himself making poor plays or not getting better.

williar
10-18-2011, 08:36 PM
DeeDub! You need to calm down some. Why all the hate just because some fans don't think that Ben is as great as you do? I'm not saying the dude is chopped liver- I'm just saying if Ben doesn't somehow, someway decide to step up his game in the next few weeks we are going to be toast going forward. Our defense is still good but it isn't what it used to be. You have to consistently put points on the board if you want to compete with the elite teams. Right now, nobody knows what Ben is going to show up when or where. That's quite frustrating.......

Brother if I have come off as showing hate..I apologize. Not sure where you get that from though? This is just a discussion/disagreement. I dont have a hateful bone in my body.

No problem, my friend... I understand B & G passion....

BradshawsHairdresser
10-18-2011, 08:39 PM
[quote=BradshawsHairdresser][quote="Dee Dub":12iw36o2]

I'm not happy with his play either.

Now you've just contradicted your opening post of this thread, where you wrote:


There seems to be a lot of unhappy Steelers fans who are unsatisfied with Ben and his quarterback play. What do you want then? Tells us. Just come out and say it. Stop with the Ben bashing and tell us who you want as the QB of the Pittsburgh Steelers.[/quote:12iw36o2]

I dont think that I have contradicted myself. Every player that has played the game has areas where they could improve. And I'll admit there are times when Ben makes plays that he shouldn't....but...I refuse to criticize him. His poor play this year is more of a result of what is happening around him than he himself making poor plays or not getting better.[/quote:12iw36o2]

So you ARE satsified with Ben's play!

See, I agree with you that Ben is a great QB, and that we're lucky to have him.
But I can't agree when you say that he himself is not making poor plays, and that he should not be criticized. Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Ultimately, I think we both want the same thing: Ben to do well and the Steelers to do well.

Steelhere10
10-18-2011, 08:52 PM
Sorry guys, but here is my input
Of all the so called elite QB's in this league, there is only one that will not be productive behind this line and that is Rivers with his slow release . The others Brady, Manning, Brees and mainly Rodgers get the ball out quick enough where the Oline with be a mute point. Take Rodgers for an example. People forget that his first couple of seasons , he was getting sacked on a rate with Ben. But guess what he changed his game, Ben game is the same. And all would have won multiples SB's also with this defense.
But for the record i don't want Cam or Josh over Ben. But give me Brees, Manning, Brady and Rodgers over Ben any day.

eniparadoxgma
10-18-2011, 09:56 PM
Ben is not a great QB.... I swear this board must be full of 15 year olds.

What is it you care so much about, since it's obviously not winning? Style points? Fantasy football stats?
Don't spout the "I just want him to get better" spiel either. The numbers...the important numbers...(which I define as wins/losses and especially Super Bowl wins)...say that Yes, Ben is Great. At Winning.

Sure, I hope he gets better. I hope he has a 100% completion percentage, a YPA of 150 and wins every Super Bowl from now until he dies at the age of 150. However, considering his track record so far I think we're pretty lucky to have him. Period.

Well, we didn't win SB45. I'm still angry about that....

Me too. Should I assume then that you expect us to win every Super Bowl? Sometimes the other team is better. It does happen.


We haven't beat a really good team yet this year. So I am concerned that we are not really that good.

I understand your concern. However, that has nothing to do with Ben. Also, we can't pick who we play. We can only play who they put on the schedule and I'm alright with 4-2 at right now.


Our QB still has too many, I'm playing stupid days. That concerns me because I really think he's dealing with a professional identity crisis. We're just about a quarter of the way through the season and our QB has had one good game since, I don't know when. We are winning, yeah a little. But I still think we are too reliant on our defense.

I understand your points here. I'm also not a fan of Ben throwing what looks like completely insane interceptions. I'm also a little concerned that he hasn't been looking all that good recently. However, as I have previously mentioned and as the past also shows, he's a winner. I have more faith that he will get back up to snuff then go into some kind of downward spiral. And the Steelers have always been known for their defense. That's Steeler football. I'm not sure how that's Ben's "fault" somehow. You would prefer the defense to be worse and Ben to be saving us? I really don't see the logic there. Regardless of how we do it we win. That's my concern.


Those are a few of my concerns O' Great One..... You think maybe you can tell me Almighty, when Our great QB will actually be GREAT???

Have we had some kind of previous contact? I'm assuming we do since you appear to know the correct way to address me. (BOOYAH) Regardless, you completely ignore all of Ben's accomplishments and focus only on the negative. You blatantly disregard all of the things he has done and does do right. I can easily acknowledge he's not untouchable and that I have my own concerns with him. When are you going to be able to level out and respect what he's done?

birtikidis
10-18-2011, 10:30 PM
I don't know any professional that is satisfied with their performance. Most professionals don't have fans so they don't get pressure like a qb does. I love having Ben as my qb, bt I won't say that he has mastered the position. There are areas he can improve. He knows, you know it, I know it. Doesn't mean we want to get rid of him.

Dee Dub
10-18-2011, 11:52 PM
Sorry guys, but here is my input
Of all the so called elite QB's in this league, there is only one that will not be productive behind this line and that is Rivers with his slow release . The others Brady, Manning, Brees and mainly Rodgers get the ball out quick enough where the Oline with be a mute point. Take Rodgers for an example. People forget that his first couple of seasons , he was getting sacked on a rate with Ben. But guess what he changed his game, Ben game is the same. And all would have won multiples SB's also with this defense.
But for the record i don't want Cam or Josh over Ben. But give me Brees, Manning, Brady and Rodgers over Ben any day.

My friend dont you think it is also the sytem those QB's are in that has something to do with them geting the ball out quickly? They all run a spread, West Coast style, that relies heavily on the short to intermediate routes? What happens to those QB's and their release when they are in the Steelers offense? When they are asked to drop 7 yards, avoid a heavy rush constantly, wait for a receiver to get seperatation, or be behind a run first mentality that often gets them in 2nd and 3rd and long?...Ya know those obvious passsing situtations where the defense knows you have to throw? An offense that wants to run the ball inside the 10 yard more often than allowing those QB's to throw for TD's?

And do you mean Brees in the Saints system or Brees when he was in that sludge of a system that Marty Shottenheimer ran?

See what I am talking about?

Think about it.

NJ-STEELER
10-19-2011, 12:38 AM
sorry, maybe the wrong tread but i saw it addressed earlier

but, WHAT THE **** is so "great" about our offense?? i've seen this statement many times...more in the preseason when some are fooled into thinking its going to near the best in the league

it consists of

an OL thats very average at best. before 2010 it had zero players on the roster drafted in the top 2 rounds. the only team in the league to have that. clearly the FO has seen the problem and address the area with a 1st and 2nd rounder the last 2 years. hopefully they pan out, but they are very young (gilbert especially)

a RB that should be elite, but hasnt been running as hard as he could have been before this last game. i dont think anyone can disagree with that. we saw a big difference vs the jags though. some of the problems stem from (again) the OL letting free defenders into the backfield to meet mendy as he's getting the handoff

heath miller is a good 2 way TE. he's not one of these TEs in the new NFL that are more like bigger receivers then TEs. he does not stretch the field and is used way to often to stay in and nlock yo help out the OL oin pass pro. DJ offers very little in the passing and isnt exactly mark bruener in the running game

mike wallace is an exceptional deep threat and rounding out his overall game. he's still isnt one of these big physical types that you normally see from teams #1 receiver . they've let go 2 1st round draft choices over the years and agree or dont agree with the decision, it takes away from helping other areas when drafting their replacements.
brown and sanders are good players but nothing special in todays passing league. lots of teams have these types of players. hines is past his prime
i think this group is good enuff to win with (heck, we won a SB with hines, ARE and cedric as our top 3 wrs in 05) i just dont think they're anything special save for wallace's deep threat

NJ-STEELER
10-19-2011, 12:43 AM
question
why wouldnt we rely on the defense?

look at the players's salary there and how much cap space we've allocated to it.
if we dont expect to rely on them so much, what the hell are we paying them so much ?

NJ-STEELER
10-19-2011, 01:01 AM
hmmm

no mention of brady having 2 TEs that cause defenses match up nightmares (as evidenced by gronkowski torching us for 3 RDs last year)

keep picking tidbits from the stat sheet instead of watching (other) games.

brady was flustered all game long vs. the cowboys when they as they were able to get into his face most of the game.

2 INTs and only 13 points at home...should brady work harder in practice.

"why is he so inconsistent"??? didnt he just throw 4 INTs in a loss to the bills?

Sonny
10-19-2011, 09:53 AM
About the SB, if Ben had played like he did in 43, we win.

People underrate his 43 performance. He was absolutely clutch and his one pick was batted. His stat sheet could have looked prettier if he had that almost TD pass in the first quarter. I don't know why people say he was " average" except for one drive.

ikestops85
10-19-2011, 01:08 PM
[Can you prove that he's not? Can you prove that Brown and Sanders drop as many passes as they catch? Can you prove that Ben is an elite QB and just not riding the coattails of his defense? How many games has this team won when the defense gives up more than 24 points?

2004 - 2 games
2005 - 0 games
2006 - 1 game
2007 - 2 games
2008 - 2 games
2009 - 3 games
2010 - 1 game


When our D gives up 24 or more points. Now what?

Just what I thought. We don't win many games when our defense doesn't lock the other team down. I probably could have said 17 points and got the same results. This simply tells me that with our QB getting into a shootout is out of the question we won't win too many of those.

Here it is for 17 or more.

2004 - 8 games
2005 - 7 games
2006 - 4 games
2007 - 2 games
2008 - 5 games
2009 - 6 games
2010 - 4 games

Probably more than you expected.

feltdizz
10-19-2011, 01:50 PM
hmmm

no mention of brady having 2 TEs that cause defenses match up nightmares (as evidenced by gronkowski torching us for 3 RDs last year)

keep picking tidbits from the stat sheet instead of watching (other) games.

brady was flustered all game long vs. the cowboys when they as they were able to get into his face most of the game.

2 INTs and only 13 points at home...should brady work harder in practice.

"why is he so inconsistent"??? didnt he just throw 4 INTs in a loss to the bills?

I wouldn't be surprised if Patriot fans are upset or questioning Brady's performance lately.

The funny thing is Ben cheerleaders always pick out the weaknesses or bad games by Manning, Brees, Brady, Rodgers etc... anytime Steeler fans criticize Ben.

How can a person admit the elite QB's have flaws but make a ton of excuses for Ben's weaknesses or bad games.

No one is saying these other QB's are perfect... so why fight fans when they say Ben isn't perfect as well?

Slapstick
10-19-2011, 03:15 PM
The funny thing is Ben cheerleaders always pick out the weaknesses or bad games by Manning, Brees, Brady, Rodgers etc... anytime Steeler fans criticize Ben.

Those posts are a response to when "those QBs" are held up as the "gold standard"... :roll:


How can a person admit the elite QB's have flaws but make a ton of excuses for Ben's weaknesses or bad games.

The same way that the "elite QBs" are put on a pedestal while Roethlisberger is dissected... :HeadBanger


No one is saying these other QB's are perfect... so why fight fans when they say Ben isn't perfect as well?

No one would be fighting if people simply said Ben isn't perfect...the debates start when someone posts something asinine like, "I'd rather have Cam Newton." :wft

Dee Dub
10-19-2011, 03:20 PM
The funny thing is Ben cheerleaders always pick out the weaknesses or bad games by Manning, Brees, Brady, Rodgers etc... anytime Steeler fans criticize Ben.

Those posts are a response to when "those QBs" are held up as the "gold standard"... :roll:


How can a person admit the elite QB's have flaws but make a ton of excuses for Ben's weaknesses or bad games.

The same way that the "elite QBs" are put on a pedestal while Roethlisberger is dissected... :HeadBanger


No one is saying these other QB's are perfect... so why fight fans when they say Ben isn't perfect as well?

No one would be fighting if people simply said Ben isn't perfect...the debates start when someone posts something asinine like, "I'd rather have Cam Newton." :wft

Bravo!!! Slap...that was a thing of beauty. :Bow

But to be honest for guys like feltdizz...it is going to go on deaf ears. He is a straight Ben hater. Has been from day one.

grotonsteel
10-19-2011, 04:26 PM
The funny thing is Ben cheerleaders always pick out the weaknesses or bad games by Manning, Brees, Brady, Rodgers etc... anytime Steeler fans criticize Ben.

Those posts are a response to when "those QBs" are held up as the "gold standard"... :roll:


How can a person admit the elite QB's have flaws but make a ton of excuses for Ben's weaknesses or bad games.

The same way that the "elite QBs" are put on a pedestal while Roethlisberger is dissected... :HeadBanger


No one is saying these other QB's are perfect... so why fight fans when they say Ben isn't perfect as well?

No one would be fighting if people simply said Ben isn't perfect...the debates start when someone posts something asinine like, "I'd rather have Cam Newton." :wft


:Clap

Well Said Slap....

williar
10-19-2011, 05:04 PM
[Can you prove that he's not? Can you prove that Brown and Sanders drop as many passes as they catch? Can you prove that Ben is an elite QB and just not riding the coattails of his defense? How many games has this team won when the defense gives up more than 24 points?

2004 - 2 games
2005 - 0 games
2006 - 1 game
2007 - 2 games
2008 - 2 games
2009 - 3 games
2010 - 1 game


When our D gives up 24 or more points. Now what?

Just what I thought. We don't win many games when our defense doesn't lock the other team down. I probably could have said 17 points and got the same results. This simply tells me that with our QB getting into a shootout is out of the question we won't win too many of those.

Here it is for 17 or more.

2004 - 8 games
2005 - 7 games
2006 - 4 games
2007 - 2 games
2008 - 5 games
2009 - 6 games
2010 - 4 games

Probably more than you expected.

Not really. That is more in line with what I would expect... Our defense yielding anything between 14 and 17 points is manageable for our offense to keep up with. If we are playing a good team then it is usually 10 to 14 points. Anything over 20 points becomes a shootout for our offense. As you already know, our offense can't sustain those too well...

Thanks for the info....

birtikidis
10-19-2011, 05:17 PM
not many teams win a lot of games when they give up 24 points, so i don't really know what the conversation is about. Luckily our defense rarely gives up points like that so our offense can be conservative and not have to wing the ball around like a perennial loser would have to do.

williar
10-19-2011, 05:19 PM
The funny thing is Ben cheerleaders always pick out the weaknesses or bad games by Manning, Brees, Brady, Rodgers etc... anytime Steeler fans criticize Ben.

Those posts are a response to when "those QBs" are held up as the "gold standard"... :roll:


How can a person admit the elite QB's have flaws but make a ton of excuses for Ben's weaknesses or bad games.

The same way that the "elite QBs" are put on a pedestal while Roethlisberger is dissected... :HeadBanger


No one is saying these other QB's are perfect... so why fight fans when they say Ben isn't perfect as well?

No one would be fighting if people simply said Ben isn't perfect...the debates start when someone posts something asinine like, "I'd rather have Cam Newton." :wft


:Clap

Well Said Slap....

Just because someone doesn't agree or like my assessment of the situation doesn't make it asinine...... You FOOL!!!!

Obviously I don't hold Ben Roethlisberger in as high esteem as you do. The way Ben plays ain't my cup of tea... I don't think he's great.. And yes, there other QB's I'd rather have leading my team.... Deal with it..... I don't agree with many of your statements either. That does not make you wrong or right. And I won't be ignorant enough or narrow minded to say your view is asinine. This is a freakin message board. It is not the bible! If you don't agree, so what! Just move on.....

NJ-STEELER
10-19-2011, 05:52 PM
No one is saying these other QB's are perfect... so why fight fans when they say Ben isn't perfect as well?

um, by reading this thread, could have sworn they were .

and i'll take that bet that they are burning up the talk shows and message boards complaining about brady

DukieBoy
10-19-2011, 06:06 PM
We are 4 and 2. That's not bad news. And we've gone 4 and 2 with Ben playing inconsistent to poor. That might be bad news for the rest of our schedule.

I think criticism of Ben's play so far this year is warranted. I have criticized his play and I am not willing to excuse or alibi his play so far this year. But I will say that, in my esteem, there are only three current quarterbacks who I would choose to play for my team when the game is on the line ... Ben Roethlisberger is one of them.

I mean this with no intended disrespect to other opinions. I hope my PS friends who have felt disrespected on this thread will keep with us, and I hope we will keep the standard of respect among us all.

hawaiiansteel
10-19-2011, 06:14 PM
We are 4 and 2. That's not bad news. And we've gone 4 and 2 with Ben playing inconsistent to poor. That might be bad news for the rest of our schedule.

I think criticism of Ben's play so far this year is warranted. I have criticized his play and I am not willing to excuse or alibi his play so far this year. But I will say that, in my esteem, there are only three current quarterbacks who I would choose to play for my team when the game is on the line ... Ben Roethlisberger is one of them.

I mean this with no intended disrespect to other opinions. I hope my PS friends who have felt disrespected on this thread will keep with us, and I hope we will keep the standard of respect among us all.


great post! :Clap

feltdizz
10-19-2011, 06:27 PM
The funny thing is Ben cheerleaders always pick out the weaknesses or bad games by Manning, Brees, Brady, Rodgers etc... anytime Steeler fans criticize Ben.

Those posts are a response to when "those QBs" are held up as the "gold standard"... :roll:


How can a person admit the elite QB's have flaws but make a ton of excuses for Ben's weaknesses or bad games.

The same way that the "elite QBs" are put on a pedestal while Roethlisberger is dissected... :HeadBanger


No one is saying these other QB's are perfect... so why fight fans when they say Ben isn't perfect as well?

No one would be fighting if people simply said Ben isn't perfect...the debates start when someone posts something asinine like, "I'd rather have Cam Newton." :wft

That's a lie and you know it. The majority of people who criticize Ben are Steeler fans who see a guy who isn't playing up to his ability.

Why would anyone entertain "trade Ben" or "I'd rather have Andrew Luck's sister"

Those aren't legit comments to begin with but anytime someone makes a sensible complaint or questions his play we get insanity from the board.

Dee Dub says I'm a Ben hater that's simply because I believe all Steelers should be held to the same standard when it comes to criticism.

To suggest fans can say "Ben isn't perfect" is another examole of how crazy you guys sound. Fans can say he isn't perfect but say anything else and watch out... LOL

Those QB you mentioned are the Gold Standard and they aren't perfect either. That's the point, they aren't perfect but they are more consistent. Ben is awesome when he is on fire but that's been rare lately. Some fans are tired of hearing about how awesome Ben was in 2005 or how awesome the throw was in 2008.. How he would be just as lethal would a great OL or another OC.

Ben loves his OC and he defends his OL all the time. Stop making excuses. You don't let other teams fans get away with excuses so don't use them now. I can understand when a Steeler fan is arguing with a Pats fan over QB's but when its Steeler family let's act like mature adults and talk about what is wrong or what could be fixed instead of making excuses or asking fans to say Ben isn't perfect.

Slapstick
10-19-2011, 09:02 PM
Just because someone doesn't agree or like my assessment of the situation doesn't make it asinine...... You FOOL!!!!

Obviously I don't hold Ben Roethlisberger in as high esteem as you do. The way Ben plays ain't my cup of tea... I don't think he's great.. And yes, there other QB's I'd rather have leading my team.... Deal with it..... I don't agree with many of your statements either. That does not make you wrong or right. And I won't be ignorant enough or narrow minded to say your view is asinine. This is a freakin message board. It is not the bible! If you don't agree, so what! Just move on.....

Actually, sir, that assessment IS asinine...and, in that, I'm being quite kind...

Now, I never said that YOU are asinine...and I would never do so...but, if you want to post your opinion on a message board, you really should have a skin thick enough to withstand the sometimes scathing criticism of your viewpoint that results...

That doesn't make it personal...I think that YOU, as a person, are just fine...

But, in this matter, I think that your opinion just stinks...but, please, feel free to express it...that's what the message board is for...

I bolded the last part above because you should practice what you preach, if you feel that strongly...

Slapstick
10-19-2011, 09:05 PM
That's a lie and you know it. The majority of people who criticize Ben are Steeler fans who see a guy who isn't playing up to his ability.

I know no such thing...

Watch this:

Ben Roethlisberger is not a perfect QB...

In fact, I would say that, overall, he is not having a particularly good season so far...

Anyone disagree?

Prowler
10-19-2011, 11:38 PM
Here is my take on Roethlisberger. Every single game he does something that really pisses me off but he's proven to be a winner and for this I am grateful we have him on our team.
It does not help at all that our moronic OC calls 40 yard passing plays nearly every single time Ben drops back to pass. If Arians would call games like he did a couple of weeks ago with the dink and dunk short passing game, Ben would be a lot healthier and less banged up, plus our OL would look much better like it did 2 weeks ago.

hawaiiansteel
10-20-2011, 12:59 AM
wonder why Arians won't let Ben run no-huddle more often?


By Scott Brown, PITTSBURGH TRIBUNE-REVIEW
Thursday, October 20, 2011

>> Steelers QB Ben Roethlisberger lobbied offensive coordinator Bruce Arians to go to a no-huddle attack last Sunday after the Steelers offense had bogged down. Roethlisberger said he wanted to switch things up with about eight minutes left in the fourth quarter. The Steelers quarterback has made no secret that he's a big fan of the no-huddle attack.

"A lot of it is that I am calling the plays, so I can see the defenses," Roethlisberger said. "When a play is called from the sidelines, it's based off tendencies, which when you have a good coordinator like we do they know tendencies pretty well. I have a feel for who is playing well and who is doing good things. It's a rhythm thing."

Roethlisberger is 6 for 13 for 86 yards this season when the Steelers have used a no-huddle offense.

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsbu ... z1bHqeYqBM (http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/sports/steelers/s_762821.html#ixzz1bHqeYqBM)

williar
10-20-2011, 09:18 AM
not many teams win a lot of games when they give up 24 points, so i don't really know what the conversation is about. Luckily our defense rarely gives up points like that so our offense can be conservative and not have to wing the ball around like a perennial loser would have to do.

Teams with elite quarterbacks do it all of the time..... We aren't capable because of, well, you already know..

williar
10-20-2011, 09:22 AM
The funny thing is Ben cheerleaders always pick out the weaknesses or bad games by Manning, Brees, Brady, Rodgers etc... anytime Steeler fans criticize Ben.

Those posts are a response to when "those QBs" are held up as the "gold standard"... :roll:


How can a person admit the elite QB's have flaws but make a ton of excuses for Ben's weaknesses or bad games.

The same way that the "elite QBs" are put on a pedestal while Roethlisberger is dissected... :HeadBanger


No one is saying these other QB's are perfect... so why fight fans when they say Ben isn't perfect as well?

No one would be fighting if people simply said Ben isn't perfect...the debates start when someone posts something asinine like, "I'd rather have Cam Newton." :wft

Bravo!!! Slap...that was a thing of beauty. :Bow

But to be honest for guys like feltdizz...it is going to go on deaf ears. He is a straight Ben hater. Has been from day one.

And guys like YOU, deedub, are Ben Roethlisberger straight ballsuckers.... That is your preference... We all have em....

williar
10-20-2011, 09:26 AM
The funny thing is Ben cheerleaders always pick out the weaknesses or bad games by Manning, Brees, Brady, Rodgers etc... anytime Steeler fans criticize Ben.

Those posts are a response to when "those QBs" are held up as the "gold standard"... :roll:


How can a person admit the elite QB's have flaws but make a ton of excuses for Ben's weaknesses or bad games.

The same way that the "elite QBs" are put on a pedestal while Roethlisberger is dissected... :HeadBanger


No one is saying these other QB's are perfect... so why fight fans when they say Ben isn't perfect as well?

No one would be fighting if people simply said Ben isn't perfect...the debates start when someone posts something asinine like, "I'd rather have Cam Newton." :wft

Bravo!!! Slap...that was a thing of beauty. :Bow

But to be honest for guys like feltdizz...it is going to go on deaf ears. He is a straight Ben hater. Has been from day one.

And why is it that statement alone causing you all cry like little girls. Sensitive much? Cam must be doing something right......

feltdizz
10-20-2011, 09:27 AM
wonder why Arians won't let Ben run no-huddle more often?


By Scott Brown, PITTSBURGH TRIBUNE-REVIEW
Thursday, October 20, 2011

>> Steelers QB Ben Roethlisberger lobbied offensive coordinator Bruce Arians to go to a no-huddle attack last Sunday after the Steelers offense had bogged down. Roethlisberger said he wanted to switch things up with about eight minutes left in the fourth quarter. The Steelers quarterback has made no secret that he's a big fan of the no-huddle attack.

"A lot of it is that I am calling the plays, so I can see the defenses," Roethlisberger said. "When a play is called from the sidelines, it's based off tendencies, which when you have a good coordinator like we do they know tendencies pretty well. I have a feel for who is playing well and who is doing good things. It's a rhythm thing."

Roethlisberger is 6 for 13 for 86 yards this season when the Steelers have used a no-huddle offense.

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsbu ... z1bHqeYqBM (http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/sports/steelers/s_762821.html#ixzz1bHqeYqBM)

Complete passes to wide open WR's and then we can talk no huddle. :roll:

williar
10-20-2011, 11:26 AM
I have a question for those of you who think Ben is the end all, be all of NFL QBís. You think that every team would kill to have him. You think Ben is as good as or better than Brady, Manning, Brees, etc. (Yes. I have actually read these statements on this board).

When Ben was allegedly on the trading block during the 2010 draft, how come no teams made an offer for him? There were reports that our FO was in love with Sam Bradford but the rams werenít interested in Ben. How come no one wanted our elite QB when they probably could have had him with the right offer? I mean, the raiders just gave up two first rounders for Carson Palmer whose older, game has deteriorated and hasnít even played yet this season. It was reported that the raiders didnít want Ben, or did any of the top 10 drafting teams during that time.

Iím not suggesting all of these allegations about trading Ben were true, however, this is what was reported on national TV by the Schefters and Mortensens during and leading up to the draft. Furthermore, I donít think our FO would have leaked this kind of information if none of it were true.

Dee Dub
10-20-2011, 11:47 AM
And guys like YOU, deedub, are Ben Roethlisberger straight ballsuckers.... That is your preference... We all have em....

But why not? Am I not a diehard Steeler fan? Do I not bleed Steeler Black N' Gold? Shouldnt I support the QB of my favorite team who has already produced two Super Bowl wins and three AFC Championships? Isnt that what being a "FAN" is all about?

Sorry I am not going to jump ship, point fingers, and criticize a guy who has already been at the highest peak in the NFL twice (over his first 7 years in the league), just because he has struggled some early on in a season when there are several factors around him that are contributing to it (O-line, young WR's, inconsistant run game, etc.).

But hey...you are a Steeler fan that would rather have Cam Newton as the QB for the Pittsburgh Steelers. :roll:

That makes me want to vomit.

Dee Dub
10-20-2011, 11:51 AM
I have a question for those of you who think Ben is the end all, be all of NFL QBís.......

I know you have forgotten this and have been clouded by the thoughts of a QB passing for 400 yards games, throwing more INT's than TD's, and having his team with a 1-5 record, but Ben has already been the end all among NFL QB's. He's done it twice in just 7 years in the league.

That is what you call being in "elite" company. :wink:

grotonsteel
10-20-2011, 12:15 PM
Iím not suggesting all of these allegations about trading Ben were true, however, this is what was reported on national TV by the Schefters and Mortensens during and leading up to the draft. Furthermore, I donít think our FO would have leaked this kind of information if none of it were true.

You are now trying to prove that Ben sucks based on a rumor???? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Get a sound byte from Steelers FO and not National Enquirer..i mean ESPMZ.

williar
10-20-2011, 12:23 PM
I have a question for those of you who think Ben is the end all, be all of NFL QBís.......

I know you have forgotten this and have been clouded by the thoughts of a QB passing for 400 yards games, throwing more INT's than TD's, and having his team with a 1-5 record, but Ben has already been the end all among NFL QB's. He's done it twice in just 7 years in the league.

That is what you call being in "elite" company. :wink:

Stop taking my post out of context... That's the problem. You won't effectively address any of my questions or comments. You refuse to read and deal with the post in its entirely. There was a question posed with this statement about when Ben was on the trading block, how come no teams wanted this supposedly elite QB enough to make an offer for him. Address that won't you please.

You started this thread asking why some fans are not completely sold on Ben. And who we would want instead of Ben. I answered your question completely with a 1-page outline of my concerns with Ben and other QB's I would love to have instead of Ben. I made a list for you of 6 or 7 QB's I would take right now over Ben. You took two words out of that entire (Cam Newton) page and made this senseless mess out of it.

If I think Cam Newton is all that, so be it.... It is no more ridiculous then some of the comments I read on this board. People suggesting Ben is a better QB than Rogers, Manning, Brady, etc...

Leper Friend
10-20-2011, 01:35 PM
The fact that Ben's even in the conversation of being considered "elite" is good enough for me. If a team misses on a first round QB it can set a franchise back 5 years.

He's a legit franchise QB , comparing him to other franchise QB's is nitpicky. I think he's undoubtedly in the range of 3rd best to 10th best and thats good enough to build a franchise around. He should and will retire here and we should all consider ourselves lucky that he's here - see the 1984 through 2003 years to remind yourselves.

williar
10-20-2011, 01:38 PM
Iím not suggesting all of these allegations about trading Ben were true, however, this is what was reported on national TV by the Schefters and Mortensens during and leading up to the draft. Furthermore, I donít think our FO would have leaked this kind of information if none of it were true.

You are now trying to prove that Ben sucks based on a rumor???? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Get a sound byte from Steelers FO and not National Enquirer..i mean ESPMZ.

Not at all, sir... I just watch the games and watch him overthrow and under throw open receivers...

Funny... No one has an answer... Wow! Now that speaks volumes...

Slapstick
10-20-2011, 02:58 PM
No one would be fighting if people simply said Ben isn't perfect...the debates start when someone posts something asinine like, "I'd rather have Cam Newton." :wft

And why is it that statement alone causing you all cry like little girls. Sensitive much? Cam must be doing something right......

No one is crying...it is simply an asinine assertion...

If you look at the last page of posts, one of us is being overly sensitive...and it isn't me...

Hint: It's you

hawaiiansteel
10-20-2011, 03:22 PM
Steelers quarterback plagued by spotty play

By Mark Kaboly, PITTSBURGH TRIBUNE-REVIEW
Thursday, October 20, 2011

http://files.pittsburghlive.com/photos/2011-10-19/1020RoethlisInsideCAP-a.jpg

When Ben Roethlisberger has been good, he's been real good this year. But when he has been bad, he's been real bad ó and it hasn't been unusual to see both happen in the same game.

Even though Roethlisberger is on pace to surpass his career averages in yards, touchdown attempts and completions, his inconsistent play has led the highly regarded Steelers offense to sputter at times through the first six games.

"We all have been up and down, just not the quarterback," receiver Antonio Brown said. "In the process of us being up and down, we are still 4-2."

The Steelers are 4-2 and a half-game behind first-place Baltimore in the AFC North heading into Sunday's game at Arizona, and Roethlisberger's play hasn't been a concern with the coaching staff.

That includes his accuracy.

Roethlisberger is completing 62 percent of his passes, but he has missed some easy throws over the first six weeks.

"Accuracy is not an issue," quarterbacks coach Randy Fichtner said. "He has always been a very accurate quarterback ... I wouldn't look too much into that. It is a lot of who you play, circumstances of when you are throwing it, situations like third-and-long. The thing about Ben is that he always gives you a chance."

Just two years ago, Roethlisberger completed a franchise-record 66.6 percent of his throws. In fact, Roethlisberger owns the top four completion percentage numbers in franchise history and seven of the top 10, making this year's erratic accuracy unusual.

"I just know how important it is to him, but more importantly, he wants to make plays and the plays he should make," Fichtner said.

Roethlisberger has played like a Pro Bowl quarterback at times and like a rookie during others - sometimes during the same game.

Consider:

>> Roethlisberger threw three interceptions against Baltimore and had a 52.9 passer rating. The next week, he completed 80 percent of his first-half passes against Seattle in leading the Steelers to a 17-0 halftime lead.

>> He threw for 364 yards in a win over Indianapolis, followed that with a stinker in Houston when he completed 53 percent, then was named the AFC Offensive Player of the Week after tying a franchise-high with five touchdown passes against Tennessee the following week.

It hasn't been limited to game-by-game, either. At times, the inconsistencies can be traced from half-to-half.

>> Roethlisberger's first-half completion percentage is the second highest of his career (65.4); his second-half percentage is second lowest (58.2).

>> Roethlisberger helped the Steelers to a 17-3 halftime lead with his 113.8 passer rating against Jacksonville last week, but was fortunate to have had three potential interceptions dropped by the Jaguars.

"I guess it's good that we are 4-2 and playing inconsistent football," Roethlisberger said. "If we were 2-4 or 0-6, I think we would have some issues."

Fichtner knows that Roethlisberger is ó and has been ó invaluable to the offense, especially with things that go unnoticed.

"He is good at back-shoulder throws, he is good at throwing away from coverage; he is good at letting a guy have a chance to make a play even though he is covered," Fichtner said. "Those are the things that you look for out of your quarterback."

And, of course, winning games, too.

"We are winning the games, so we aren't going to complain right now," Roethlisberger said.

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsbu ... z1bLMx4qC0 (http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/sports/steelers/s_762811.html#ixzz1bLMx4qC0)

williar
10-20-2011, 03:56 PM
I have a question for those of you who think Ben is the end all, be all of NFL QBís. You think that every team would kill to have him. You think Ben is as good as or better than Brady, Manning, Brees, etc. (Yes. I have actually read these statements on this board).

When Ben was allegedly on the trading block during the 2010 draft, how come no teams made an offer for him? There were reports that our FO was in love with Sam Bradford but the rams werenít interested in Ben. How come no one wanted our elite QB when they probably could have had him with the right offer? I mean, the raiders just gave up two first rounders for Carson Palmer whose older, game has deteriorated and hasnít even played yet this season. It was reported that the raiders didnít want Ben, or did any of the top 10 drafting teams during that time.

Iím not suggesting all of these allegations about trading Ben were true, however, this is what was reported on national TV by the Schefters and Mortensens during and leading up to the draft. Furthermore, I donít think our FO would have leaked this kind of information if none of it were true.

?????? Anybody want to take a shot at it??????????

And they scattered like roaches............

williar
10-20-2011, 03:59 PM
No one would be fighting if people simply said Ben isn't perfect...the debates start when someone posts something asinine like, "I'd rather have Cam Newton." :wft

And why is it that statement alone causing you all cry like little girls. Sensitive much? Cam must be doing something right......

No one is crying...it is simply an asinine assertion...

If you look at the last page of posts, one of us is being overly sensitive...and it isn't me...

Hint: It's you

If you're one of the ones who thinks Ben is "elite" then I guess you would know all about asinine assertion....

eniparadoxgma
10-20-2011, 04:50 PM
I have a question for those of you who think Ben is the end all, be all of NFL QBís. You think that every team would kill to have him. You think Ben is as good as or better than Brady, Manning, Brees, etc. (Yes. I have actually read these statements on this board).

When Ben was allegedly on the trading block during the 2010 draft, how come no teams made an offer for him? There were reports that our FO was in love with Sam Bradford but the rams werenít interested in Ben. How come no one wanted our elite QB when they probably could have had him with the right offer? I mean, the raiders just gave up two first rounders for Carson Palmer whose older, game has deteriorated and hasnít even played yet this season. It was reported that the raiders didnít want Ben, or did any of the top 10 drafting teams during that time.

Iím not suggesting all of these allegations about trading Ben were true, however, this is what was reported on national TV by the Schefters and Mortensens during and leading up to the draft. Furthermore, I donít think our FO would have leaked this kind of information if none of it were true.

?????? Anybody want to take a shot at it??????????

And they scattered like roaches............

1. You never answered my question.

2. That rumor was just that: A rumor. We would get as much for Ben as the Packers would get for trading Rodgers. If you really, and I mean really think that no one wanted Ben, then you, sir, are beyond rational discourse.

williar
10-20-2011, 05:27 PM
I have a question for those of you who think Ben is the end all, be all of NFL QBís. You think that every team would kill to have him. You think Ben is as good as or better than Brady, Manning, Brees, etc. (Yes. I have actually read these statements on this board).

When Ben was allegedly on the trading block during the 2010 draft, how come no teams made an offer for him? There were reports that our FO was in love with Sam Bradford but the rams werenít interested in Ben. How come no one wanted our elite QB when they probably could have had him with the right offer? I mean, the raiders just gave up two first rounders for Carson Palmer whose older, game has deteriorated and hasnít even played yet this season. It was reported that the raiders didnít want Ben, or did any of the top 10 drafting teams during that time.

Iím not suggesting all of these allegations about trading Ben were true, however, this is what was reported on national TV by the Schefters and Mortensens during and leading up to the draft. Furthermore, I donít think our FO would have leaked this kind of information if none of it were true.

?????? Anybody want to take a shot at it??????????

And they scattered like roaches............

1. You never answered my question.

2. That rumor was just that: A rumor. We would get as much for Ben as the Packers would get for trading Rodgers. If you really, and I mean really think that no one wanted Ben, then you, sir, are beyond rational discourse.

O' Great One... Thanks for stopping by... I'm trying to be rational here. O' Great One. But some of these cats are too much. Like, their crap smells like roses.

Let me ask you. Why do some of you get so bitterly defensive over our QB. Do we all have to think alike?

And as far as the trade rumor, It could have been just a rumor. Than again, maybe not. Do any of us really know? Who has a direct dial to Rooney's office? If you don't, than you are probably getting information from the same source as most of us do.

I don't have a short memory like many of these folks want to pretend to. I remember all about that draft day and night... Ben was being peddled and the FO couldn't get a ham sandwich for his ass at that time... I know everything you hear ain't necessarily true, but I have never heard anyone from our FO come out and say that those rumors weren't true.

Sorry, O' Great One for my rebellion... But I am not buying that I would get the same thing for Ben as I would get for Rogers... I know my price would vary greatly...

Dee Dub
10-20-2011, 06:28 PM
Stop taking my post out of context... That's the problem. You won't effectively address any of my questions or comments. You refuse to read and deal with the post in its entirely. There was a question posed with this statement about when Ben was on the trading block, how come no teams wanted this supposedly elite QB enough to make an offer for him. Address that won't you please

Ok Will, how about the fact that Ben had some serious off field problems? It was reported that many viewed him as an untouchable because of those off field problems and the fact that he was facing a rather long suspension. At first it was said to be possibly a 6 game suspension.



If I think Cam Newton is all that, so be it.... It is no more ridiculous then some of the comments I read on this board. People suggesting Ben is a better QB than Rogers, Manning, Brady, etc...

Interesting how you have now not included Drew Brees after I asked you which Drew Brees did you want over Ben?....the one in the wide open, pass happy, New Orleans offense, or the one in the 3 yards and a cloud of dust, sludge of an offense that he played for under Marty Shottenheimer in San Diego?

Nice. :wink:

By the way did you ever see Ben play at Miami of Ohio? Do you know what type of offense they ran there? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

eniparadoxgma
10-20-2011, 06:29 PM
First, let me repost my question to you as you seem to have forgotten to answer it again:


Regardless, you completely ignore all of Ben's accomplishments and focus only on the negative. You blatantly disregard all of the things he has done and does do right. I can easily acknowledge he's not untouchable and that I have my own concerns with him. When are you going to be able to level out and respect what he's done?


Let me ask you. Why do some of you get so bitterly defensive over our QB. Do we all have to think alike?

I'm not sure I can answer that question, as I don't get bitterly defensive over our QB. And I don't personally think we all have to think alike. However, as I have seen people that refuse to give Ben any culpability and see him as beyond reproach (e.g. MSM) I have also encountered quite a few people that seem to be unable to give him any credit whatsover (e.g. teeceemadison). Both of these positions are both extreme and untenable. It just appears very difficult for either "side" to see the bigger picture.



And as far as the trade rumor, It could have been just a rumor. Than again, maybe not. Do any of us really know? Who has a direct dial to Rooney's office? If you don't, than you are probably getting information from the same source as most of us do.

I don't have a short memory like many of these folks want to pretend to. I remember all about that draft day and night... Ben was being peddled and the FO couldn't get a ham sandwich for his bad word at that time... I know everything you hear ain't necessarily true, but I have never heard anyone from our FO come out and say that those rumors weren't true.

Thinking about it, the only reason that it would be the case that at that time he wasn't as sought after as I would think is because of his offseason issues. The only time this kind of talk even occurred was right after the incident in Georgia. It never had anything to do with his play. I will again say that the majority of teams would love to have them over their current QB. While it may just be my opinion, as I'm not sure how to go about approaching every GM in the league, I'm fairly certain any consensus opinion you gather will fall on my side of this.


Sorry, O' Great One for my rebellion... But I am not buying that I would get the same thing for Ben as I would get for Rogers... I know my price would vary greatly...

That's kind of my point. I believe your viewpoint is skewed. I sincerely don't believe the price would vary as much as you would have it.

papillon
10-20-2011, 06:48 PM
I have a question for those of you who think Ben is the end all, be all of NFL QBís. You think that every team would kill to have him. You think Ben is as good as or better than Brady, Manning, Brees, etc. (Yes. I have actually read these statements on this board).

When Ben was allegedly on the trading block during the 2010 draft, how come no teams made an offer for him? There were reports that our FO was in love with Sam Bradford but the rams werenít interested in Ben. How come no one wanted our elite QB when they probably could have had him with the right offer? I mean, the raiders just gave up two first rounders for Carson Palmer whose older, game has deteriorated and hasnít even played yet this season. It was reported that the raiders didnít want Ben, or did any of the top 10 drafting teams during that time.

Iím not suggesting all of these allegations about trading Ben were true, however, this is what was reported on national TV by the Schefters and Mortensens during and leading up to the draft. Furthermore, I donít think our FO would have leaked this kind of information if none of it were true.

?????? Anybody want to take a shot at it??????????

And they scattered like roaches............

1. You never answered my question.

2. That rumor was just that: A rumor. We would get as much for Ben as the Packers would get for trading Rodgers. If you really, and I mean really think that no one wanted Ben, then you, sir, are beyond rational discourse.

O' Great One... Thanks for stopping by... I'm trying to be rational here. O' Great One. But some of these cats are too much. Like, their crap smells like roses.

Let me ask you. Why do some of you get so bitterly defensive over our QB. Do we all have to think alike?

And as far as the trade rumor, It could have been just a rumor. Than again, maybe not. Do any of us really know? Who has a direct dial to Rooney's office? If you don't, than you are probably getting information from the same source as most of us do.

I don't have a short memory like many of these folks want to pretend to. I remember all about that draft day and night... Ben was being peddled and the FO couldn't get a ham sandwich for his bad word at that time... I know everything you hear ain't necessarily true, but I have never heard anyone from our FO come out and say that those rumors weren't true.

Sorry, O' Great One for my rebellion... But I am not buying that I would get the same thing for Ben as I would get for Rogers... I know my price would vary greatly...

We don't know if the the trade talks about Ben were rumors or not and we may never know. The Rooneys do not divulge information concerning trades, drafting, coaching hiring/firing etc in the media. So, it is not surprising for them to not deny the trade talks publicly. It's not their style to air dirty laundry, never has, probably never will provided a Rooney is running the business.

I (and others) don't get defensive about your disdain for Ben. I don't even care if you believe Newton is better than him. I will just say this, a small sample size (6 games) isn't enough to determine the ceiling for Newton and whether he'll be better than Ben. I will say this, until you have enough of a sample size to stabilize lets say his QB rating his current rating of 78 may be high, it may be low or it could be where he ends up. Ben's sample size is 7 years and 6 games and his rating is in the 90s.

Newton has 13 TDs to his credit, 7 via the pass and 6 via the run, that's not a good ratio for a quarterback. An NFL quarterback needs to be scoring TDs via his arm and not his legs. Defenses will catch on and begin to hit him and he'll miss time like Vick. He isn't as elusive as Vick, so he'll get hit. He needs to develop his passing game to be a successful quarterback in the NFL. If you were starting a team and you could Ben (7 year vet) or Newton (6 game vet) which would you take?

Newton is also rushing the ball 1 time for every 3 times he passes it (47 rushes, 134 attempts); that is a recipe for bad quarterback play over an extended period of time. He'll be on the injury list more than the field with that ratio.

Just as an aside and as a moderator for this community please be careful how you refer to members of this forum and in particular those who have been here for a long time. We're tolerant, but we will err on the side of our veterans over more recent members (less active members). You're welcome here until it gets personal and veteran board members begin to complain due to boorish or childish behavior.

Pappy

DukieBoy
10-20-2011, 08:00 PM
Thanks, Pap.

williar
10-20-2011, 08:52 PM
I have a question for those of you who think Ben is the end all, be all of NFL QBís. You think that every team would kill to have him. You think Ben is as good as or better than Brady, Manning, Brees, etc. (Yes. I have actually read these statements on this board).

When Ben was allegedly on the trading block during the 2010 draft, how come no teams made an offer for him? There were reports that our FO was in love with Sam Bradford but the rams werenít interested in Ben. How come no one wanted our elite QB when they probably could have had him with the right offer? I mean, the raiders just gave up two first rounders for Carson Palmer whose older, game has deteriorated and hasnít even played yet this season. It was reported that the raiders didnít want Ben, or did any of the top 10 drafting teams during that time.

Iím not suggesting all of these allegations about trading Ben were true, however, this is what was reported on national TV by the Schefters and Mortensens during and leading up to the draft. Furthermore, I donít think our FO would have leaked this kind of information if none of it were true.

?????? Anybody want to take a shot at it??????????

And they scattered like roaches............

1. You never answered my question.

2. That rumor was just that: A rumor. We would get as much for Ben as the Packers would get for trading Rodgers. If you really, and I mean really think that no one wanted Ben, then you, sir, are beyond rational discourse.

O' Great One... Thanks for stopping by... I'm trying to be rational here. O' Great One. But some of these cats are too much. Like, their crap smells like roses.

Let me ask you. Why do some of you get so bitterly defensive over our QB. Do we all have to think alike?

And as far as the trade rumor, It could have been just a rumor. Than again, maybe not. Do any of us really know? Who has a direct dial to Rooney's office? If you don't, than you are probably getting information from the same source as most of us do.

I don't have a short memory like many of these folks want to pretend to. I remember all about that draft day and night... Ben was being peddled and the FO couldn't get a ham sandwich for his bad word at that time... I know everything you hear ain't necessarily true, but I have never heard anyone from our FO come out and say that those rumors weren't true.

Sorry, O' Great One for my rebellion... But I am not buying that I would get the same thing for Ben as I would get for Rogers... I know my price would vary greatly...

We don't know if the the trade talks about Ben were rumors or not and we may never know. The Rooneys do not divulge information concerning trades, drafting, coaching hiring/firing etc in the media. So, it is not surprising for them to not deny the trade talks publicly. It's not their style to air dirty laundry, never has, probably never will provided a Rooney is running the business.

I (and others) don't get defensive about your disdain for Ben. I don't even care if you believe Newton is better than him. I will just say this, a small sample size (6 games) isn't enough to determine the ceiling for Newton and whether he'll be better than Ben. I will say this, until you have enough of a sample size to stabilize lets say his QB rating his current rating of 78 may be high, it may be low or it could be where he ends up. Ben's sample size is 7 years and 6 games and his rating is in the 90s.

Newton has 13 TDs to his credit, 7 via the pass and 6 via the run, that's not a good ratio for a quarterback. An NFL quarterback needs to be scoring TDs via his arm and not his legs. Defenses will catch on and begin to hit him and he'll miss time like Vick. He isn't as elusive as Vick, so he'll get hit. He needs to develop his passing game to be a successful quarterback in the NFL. If you were starting a team and you could Ben (7 year vet) or Newton (6 game vet) which would you take?

Newton is also rushing the ball 1 time for every 3 times he passes it (47 rushes, 134 attempts); that is a recipe for bad quarterback play over an extended period of time. He'll be on the injury list more than the field with that ratio.

Just as an aside and as a moderator for this community please be careful how you refer to members of this forum and in particular those who have been here for a long time. We're tolerant, but we will err on the side of our veterans over more recent members (less active members). You're welcome here until it gets personal and veteran board members begin to complain due to boorish or childish behavior.
Pappy

I truly apologize for whatever I did wrong. If you are referring to the above exchange, I honestly believe I was addressing the poster respectfully and in a complimentary manner. Aside from that I honestly do not know what you are referring to.

I guess some can dish it out, but can't take it......

papillon
10-20-2011, 09:22 PM
And guys like YOU, deedub, are Ben Roethlisberger straight ballsuckers.... That is your preference... We all have em....

This is one of the more recent ones and from this thread. We welcome dissenting opinions, but this kind of discourse without something like this :stirpot or this :D or :lol: etc tells me that it's getting personal. Monitor what you say as if the person you are replying to is standing right in front of you and you're having a face-to-face discussion.

We want your opinion, we want you to enjoy the community, but we also expect all discussion to be conducted as adults and G-rated to the extent that we can keep it G-rated. I have no problem with my kids perusing this forum, because, for the most part they aren't going to see or read anything too objectionable.

Pappy

williar
10-20-2011, 10:32 PM
And guys like YOU, deedub, are Ben Roethlisberger straight ballsuckers.... That is your preference... We all have em....

This is one of the more recent ones and from this thread. We welcome dissenting opinions, but this kind of discourse without something like this :stirpot or this :D or :lol: etc tells me that it's getting personal. Monitor what you say as if the person you are replying to is standing right in front of you and you're having a face-to-face discussion.

We want your opinion, we want you to enjoy the community, but we also expect all discussion to be conducted as adults and G-rated to the extent that we can keep it G-rated. I have no problem with my kids perusing this forum, because, for the most part they aren't going to see or read anything too objectionable.

Pappy

Sorry... It won't happen again... Thank you for letting me know...... :Agree

papillon
10-20-2011, 10:36 PM
And guys like YOU, deedub, are Ben Roethlisberger straight ballsuckers.... That is your preference... We all have em....

This is one of the more recent ones and from this thread. We welcome dissenting opinions, but this kind of discourse without something like this :stirpot or this :D or :lol: etc tells me that it's getting personal. Monitor what you say as if the person you are replying to is standing right in front of you and you're having a face-to-face discussion.

We want your opinion, we want you to enjoy the community, but we also expect all discussion to be conducted as adults and G-rated to the extent that we can keep it G-rated. I have no problem with my kids perusing this forum, because, for the most part they aren't going to see or read anything too objectionable.
Pappy

Sorry... It won't happen again... Thank you for letting me know...... :Agree

No problem, I enjoy viewpoints such as yours about Steeler players (even though I wholeheartedly disagree at times). We just expect a bit of respect for each other. It's all good, sometimes a reminder is in order.

Pappy

Slapstick
10-21-2011, 08:38 AM
I have a question for those of you who think Ben is the end all, be all of NFL QBís. You think that every team would kill to have him. You think Ben is as good as or better than Brady, Manning, Brees, etc. (Yes. I have actually read these statements on this board).

When Ben was allegedly on the trading block during the 2010 draft, how come no teams made an offer for him? There were reports that our FO was in love with Sam Bradford but the rams werenít interested in Ben. How come no one wanted our elite QB when they probably could have had him with the right offer? I mean, the raiders just gave up two first rounders for Carson Palmer whose older, game has deteriorated and hasnít even played yet this season. It was reported that the raiders didnít want Ben, or did any of the top 10 drafting teams during that time.

Iím not suggesting all of these allegations about trading Ben were true, however, this is what was reported on national TV by the Schefters and Mortensens during and leading up to the draft. Furthermore, I donít think our FO would have leaked this kind of information if none of it were true.

?????? Anybody want to take a shot at it??????????

And they scattered like roaches............

Sure, I will indulge you:


Rumors of a possible Roethlisberger trade are circulating, but Rooney said the Steelers have not discussed a trade with any team. It appears they intend to hold onto their two-time Super Bowl-winning quarterback.
"After imposing an appropriate level of discipline and outlining the steps we feel will be necessary to be successful as a player and a person, we intend to allow Ben the opportunity to prove to us he is the teammate and citizen we all believe he is capable of being," Rooney said.

Read more: http://www.wtae.com/sports/23161835/det ... z1bQ3DIplz (http://www.wtae.com/sports/23161835/detail.html#ixzz1bQ3DIplz)

There. There's my shot. :owned

feltdizz
10-21-2011, 09:05 AM
Not to get on the Cam wagon but being in Charlotte I get to see him play a lot. The guy is good. I would love to have him once Ben retired. He isn't a Michael Vick clone..

He isn't as fast or elusive as Vick but he also isn't as small or stubborn as Vick. Cam is a big guy, he has a big arm and he isn't taking hits like Vick.

Carolina isn't the Steelers so it makes no sense to compare their rookie numbers or ratings. Watch the guy play before writing him off. He is a special player IMO.

Slapstick
10-21-2011, 02:42 PM
Not to get on the Cam wagon but being in Charlotte I get to see him play a lot. The guy is good. I would love to have him once Ben retired. He isn't a Michael Vick clone..

He isn't as fast or elusive as Vick but he also isn't as small or stubborn as Vick. Cam is a big guy, he has a big arm and he isn't taking hits like Vick.

Carolina isn't the Steelers so it makes no sense to compare their rookie numbers or ratings. Watch the guy play before writing him off. He is a special player IMO.

What makes the "Cam Newton assertion" asinine is not Cam Newton himself...

It's the idea that someone, at this point in time, would want a rookie six games into the season over a guy who has started THREE SBs at the most important position in football...that is, as I said, asinine...

If it had been Andy Dalton instead of Fig Newton, I would have said the same thing...

williar
10-21-2011, 04:59 PM
Not to get on the Cam wagon but being in Charlotte I get to see him play a lot. The guy is good. I would love to have him once Ben retired. He isn't a Michael Vick clone..

He isn't as fast or elusive as Vick but he also isn't as small or stubborn as Vick. Cam is a big guy, he has a big arm and he isn't taking hits like Vick.

Carolina isn't the Steelers so it makes no sense to compare their rookie numbers or ratings. Watch the guy play before writing him off. He is a special player IMO.

What makes the "Cam Newton assertion" asinine is not Cam Newton himself...

It's the idea that someone, at this point in time, would want a rookie six games into the season over a guy who has started THREE SBs at the most important position in football...that is, as I said, asinine...

If it had been Andy Dalton instead of Fig Newton, I would have said the same thing...

Don't worry about, sir....Carolina would never make that trade anyways.....Pretty good bet we are stuck with what we have...

williar
10-21-2011, 05:08 PM
I have a question for those of you who think Ben is the end all, be all of NFL QBís. You think that every team would kill to have him. You think Ben is as good as or better than Brady, Manning, Brees, etc. (Yes. I have actually read these statements on this board).

When Ben was allegedly on the trading block during the 2010 draft, how come no teams made an offer for him? There were reports that our FO was in love with Sam Bradford but the rams werenít interested in Ben. How come no one wanted our elite QB when they probably could have had him with the right offer? I mean, the raiders just gave up two first rounders for Carson Palmer whose older, game has deteriorated and hasnít even played yet this season. It was reported that the raiders didnít want Ben, or did any of the top 10 drafting teams during that time.

Iím not suggesting all of these allegations about trading Ben were true, however, this is what was reported on national TV by the Schefters and Mortensens during and leading up to the draft. Furthermore, I donít think our FO would have leaked this kind of information if none of it were true.

?????? Anybody want to take a shot at it??????????

And they scattered like roaches............

Sure, I will indulge you:


Rumors of a possible Roethlisberger trade are circulating, but Rooney said the Steelers have not discussed a trade with any team. It appears they intend to hold onto their two-time Super Bowl-winning quarterback.
"After imposing an appropriate level of discipline and outlining the steps we feel will be necessary to be successful as a player and a person, we intend to allow Ben the opportunity to prove to us he is the teammate and citizen we all believe he is capable of being," Rooney said.

Read more: http://www.wtae.com/sports/23161835/det ... z1bQ3DIplz (http://www.wtae.com/sports/23161835/detail.html#ixzz1bQ3DIplz)

There. There's my shot. :owned

This is a very customary orginazational (trouble shooting) repsonse when something doesn't go down as hoped or plan. Again, I, like you don't know how much credence these trade rumors really had. I'm sure if you talk to some others you will get varied opinions on what really happened. On draft night it sounded like Ben was out the door if the FO would have gotten an offer they liked (but they didn't). The reporters were giving out names, numbers, and details on trade possibilities that were tossed around. I don't believe they were making all this stuff up.

We are stuck with what we have, so don't worry.....

grotonsteel
10-21-2011, 05:24 PM
I have a question for those of you who think Ben is the end all, be all of NFL QBís. You think that every team would kill to have him. You think Ben is as good as or better than Brady, Manning, Brees, etc. (Yes. I have actually read these statements on this board).

When Ben was allegedly on the trading block during the 2010 draft, how come no teams made an offer for him? There were reports that our FO was in love with Sam Bradford but the rams werenít interested in Ben. How come no one wanted our elite QB when they probably could have had him with the right offer? I mean, the raiders just gave up two first rounders for Carson Palmer whose older, game has deteriorated and hasnít even played yet this season. It was reported that the raiders didnít want Ben, or did any of the top 10 drafting teams during that time.

Iím not suggesting all of these allegations about trading Ben were true, however, this is what was reported on national TV by the Schefters and Mortensens during and leading up to the draft. Furthermore, I donít think our FO would have leaked this kind of information if none of it were true.

?????? Anybody want to take a shot at it??????????

And they scattered like roaches............

Sure, I will indulge you:


Rumors of a possible Roethlisberger trade are circulating, but Rooney said the Steelers have not discussed a trade with any team. It appears they intend to hold onto their two-time Super Bowl-winning quarterback.
"After imposing an appropriate level of discipline and outlining the steps we feel will be necessary to be successful as a player and a person, we intend to allow Ben the opportunity to prove to us he is the teammate and citizen we all believe he is capable of being," Rooney said.

Read more: http://www.wtae.com/sports/23161835/det ... z1bQ3DIplz (http://www.wtae.com/sports/23161835/detail.html#ixzz1bQ3DIplz)

There. There's my shot. :owned

This is a very customary orginazational (trouble shooting) repsonse when something doesn't go down as hoped or plan. Again, I, like you don't know how much credence these trade rumors really had. I'm sure if you talk to some others you will get varied opinions on what really happened. On draft night it sounded like Ben was out the door if the FO would have gotten an offer they liked (but they didn't). The reporters were giving out names, numbers, and details on trade possibilities that were tossed around. I don't believe they were making all this stuff up.

We are stuck with what we have, so don't worry.....

So you believe National Enquirer...ESPMZ over Rooneys??? Well more power to you.

grotonsteel
10-21-2011, 05:26 PM
Not to get on the Cam wagon but being in Charlotte I get to see him play a lot. The guy is good. I would love to have him once Ben retired. He isn't a Michael Vick clone..

He isn't as fast or elusive as Vick but he also isn't as small or stubborn as Vick. Cam is a big guy, he has a big arm and he isn't taking hits like Vick.

Carolina isn't the Steelers so it makes no sense to compare their rookie numbers or ratings. Watch the guy play before writing him off. He is a special player IMO.

What makes the "Cam Newton assertion" asinine is not Cam Newton himself...

It's the idea that someone, at this point in time, would want a rookie six games into the season over a guy who has started THREE SBs at the most important position in football...that is, as I said, asinine...

If it had been Andy Dalton instead of Fig Newton, I would have said the same thing...


:Agree

eniparadoxgma
10-24-2011, 04:21 PM
Thought I'd bump this one more time. I'm not doing it for a "SEE WHAT BEN DID SO NA NA NA NA BOO BOO". I'm doing it because I responded to someone's questions only to have them ignore mine for multiple posts. That's just bad form.

NJ-STEELER
10-24-2011, 05:32 PM
"stuck with"


LOL

eniparadoxgma
10-24-2011, 07:53 PM
"stuck with"


LOL

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Dresden
10-24-2011, 10:32 PM
Why exactly is it heresy for some of Steeler Nation to voice their opinion about Roethlisberger if that said opinion has nothing to do with believing him to be elite, polished accurate, consistent, intelligent or underrated at all in any sense ?

Dresden
10-24-2011, 10:35 PM
Oh yeah,...and five years from now you can rest assured that Cam Newton will be a far more refined passer than he is now IMHO. Because unlike Roethlisberger,...he will study and work to become the best possible QB that he can be,......

Slapstick
10-24-2011, 10:44 PM
Oh yeah,...and five years from now you can rest assured that Cam Newton will be a far more refined passer than he is now IMHO. Because unlike Roethlisberger,...he will study and work to become the best possible QB that he can be,......

...which will be a ringless QB who is not as good as Roethlisberger...

Dresden
10-25-2011, 12:47 AM
Oh yeah,...and five years from now you can rest assured that Cam Newton will be a far more refined passer than he is now IMHO. Because unlike Roethlisberger,...he will study and work to become the best possible QB that he can be,......

...which will be a ringless QB who is not as good as Roethlisberger...


An Exceptional Organization and Exceptional Defensive units equals Roethlisberger's rings. He is not elite sir.

Cam Newton,....whether we like the kid or not as a person,... is even now a superior QB and athlete than Roethlisberger ever was, going back to his (Roethlisberger) only playing a single year at the position in high school,.... to scrambling recklessly, playing terribly in big games and throwing nearly nothing but deep balls and picks at Miami of Ohio.

Nothing has changed with this guy on the football field in all of these years.

NJ-STEELER
10-25-2011, 02:07 AM
how many differnet names can come up with the same exact opinion

cristoballs??

irongut?

steeler_fan_in_t.o.
10-25-2011, 02:09 AM
An Exceptional Organization and Exceptional Defensive units equals Roethlisberger's rings. He is not elite sir.

Like Rivers and Flacco?

I always love the defense excuse. Sure the Steelers have had the premiere D over the course of Ben's career thus far, but it has not been that much better each and every year than every other D in the league? And why is it that none of the "Ben is average at best" crowd never give him any credit for winning (and surviving) behind the likes of Sean Mahan, Justin Hartwig, Trai Essex et al?

In his rookie year he had a 98.1 passer rating but all we hear about was his awful performance in the AFCCG. How have all of the other rookies done in conference championship games? Yeah, not a large group to choose from there.

In his second year he had a 98.6 passer rating and in the playoffs had 7 TDs and 1 int leading up to the SB. These were three games in which they got out to big leads and were barely throwing in the second half so he did not have much of a chance to pile up stats. Sure, he had a poor SB, but how did all of those elite QBs do when they made the SB in their sophomore year? Riiiiiight.....Didn't think so.

Of course, Ben can't put up those big flashy numbers the way Peyton (dome), Rivers (year round weather), Brees (perfect weather then a dome), and Romo (perfect weather, although plays in a division with three cold weather teams)

And on it goes.........

He has not been off to a very good start this year, but since his first game (3 its, 2 fumbles lost) he has rebounded with 11 TDs against only 3 picks in 6 games.

So, IMO Ben is easily a top 5 QB in the league - in case you haven't guessed. He might not be the prototype QB but he does succeed under situations that I believe many other top QBs would fail.

Yes he has had a great D through most or all of his time here, but how many QBs would break their nose and not miss a single play while earning an ugly win? How many would only have missed one game in 2006 after the off season that Ben had? In what was easily his worst season, he had his life threatening accident and then a near fatal appendix attack just before the season opened. Aside from the motorcycle stupidity, we have to admit that probably no other QB even takes the field so soon.

So getting back to the top 5.....would I take Peyton over Ben? Not in the playoffs. How about Rivers? Only if I wanted 400 yard efforts in a losing cause while missing the playoffs in the worst division in the AFC. And last year.....SD had the top statistical D in the league.

The only QBs who I will put up in the same category:

Brady - Plays the Bellichick system to perfection. Plays in NE and in the AFC East so you know he can win in cold weather.

Brees - Puts up huge numbers with precision passing on a race track.

Rodgers - Surrounded by talent on both sides of the ball. However, he gets it done and deserves his success. Funny but Rodgers has only been in the league one season less than Ben. While Ben was thrown into the fire as a rook due to injury, Rodgers sat behind Brett Favre for three seasons. Ben is looked down upon for a bad performance in the SB his second year while Rodgers only began starting his fourth. Rodgers is always portrayed as a victim for being forced to sit behind Favre, but no consideration is given to the fact that he got the opportunity to learn behind an all time great prior to being eased into the starting position.

Manning - Sure he has put up tremendous fantasy stats, but only one SB and a sub .500 record for all playoff years other than 2006.

As you can see, not one other top QB is without their questions when it comes to their successes. I don't take them off their perch, but it does go to show that Ben having questions is not unique to him. Different style, but a great QB nonetheless.

NJ-STEELER
10-25-2011, 02:11 AM
.he will study and work to become the best possible QB that he can be,......

dont know how this stuff started.

but if you believe ben hasnt worked to better himself over the years, then you're an idiot.

there's not a qb in the league who doent study/work to get better. they would be out of the league in 2 years with all the tape defenses use to break them down

NJ-STEELER
10-25-2011, 02:16 AM
the game tonight got me thinking
jax has drafted a QB with a higher draft pick then ben 2 times recently
i bet they wish they were as unlucky as pittsburgh was to get "stuck" with roethlisberger.


and there's a reason why cam was drafted #1 overall. his talent is indeed immense. we'll see where it takes him

heaven forbid we ever draft that high. half of these so called fans of ours would fall off the bandwagon going thru a season like that. we see whats it like on these boards after 1 loss. imagine 14/15 in a season

hawaiiansteel
10-25-2011, 03:04 AM
BTSC Week 7 Game Ball Goes To...

by Michael Bean on Oct 25, 2011


I thought Roethlisberger was even better against Arizona than he was against the Titans when he threw five TDs in Pittsburgh's 38-17 Week 5 win over Tennessee. He picked the right time to take chances down the field, and did so in a way that wasn't overly risky, he dumped the ball off to his outlet options at the right times, and he was exceptionally accurate on a number of key throws. A really nice performance for him despite, once again, being under considerable duress in the pocket.

Roethlisberger now has 9 touchdowns and just 1 interception during the Steelers' three-game winning streak. His quarterback rating has risen to 95.3 after the slow start to the season.

http://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/

Slapstick
10-25-2011, 08:40 AM
An Exceptional Organization and Exceptional Defensive units equals Roethlisberger's rings. He is not elite sir.

Cam Newton,....whether we like the kid or not as a person,... is even now a superior QB and athlete than Roethlisberger ever was, going back to his (Roethlisberger) only playing a single year at the position in high school,.... to scrambling recklessly, playing terribly in big games and throwing nearly nothing but deep balls and picks at Miami of Ohio.

Nothing has changed with this guy on the football field in all of these years.

Ummm...how often during the Cowher years prior to 2004 did the Exceptional Organization have an Exceptional Defense?

How many rings did the Exceptional Organization with the Exceptional Defense win after Bradshaw but prior to drafting Roethlisberger?

Whether or not Roethlisberger is elite is really dependent upon one's definition of elite...Roethlisberger is a difference maker and a winner...to paraphrase Mike Tomlin (quite liberally) the Steelers have six Lombardi Trophies, not six fantasy football passing titles...

He has as many SB rings Drew Brees, Aaron Rodgers, Philip Rivers and Cam Newton combined...if that's not elite to you, then so be it...appearing in one SB might be a fluke...

Three? Not so much...

feltdizz
10-25-2011, 09:38 AM
I'm not knocking what Ben brings to the table but he is light years ahead of the QB's we had from Bradshaw to Maddox.

We made it to a lot of AFFCG's with horrible to average QB's... getting over the hump doesn't prove Ben is "elite" it just proves he is better than those other QB's we had under Cowher.

Now, I'm not saying Ben isn't elite... I just think SB rings aren't the measuring stick for that title given some of the QB's with rings and how close we came with other QB's.

I would like to see Ben and the O look respectable vs good D's more often.

ikestops85
10-25-2011, 10:34 AM
I'm not knocking what Ben brings to the table but he is light years ahead of the QB's we had from Bradshaw to Maddox.

We made it to a lot of AFFCG's with horrible to average QB's... getting over the hump doesn't prove Ben is "elite" it just proves he is better than those other QB's we had under Cowher.

Now, I'm not saying Ben isn't elite... I just think SB rings aren't the measuring stick for that title given some of the QB's with rings and how close we came with other QB's.

I would like to see Ben and the O look respectable vs good D's more often.

I would too ... and the O, along with Ben, will be more consistent against good defenses as soon as they get better players for the offensive line. I'm sorry but a good defense shreds our O line and it's only Ben's ability that keeps us in games against those teams. That's what Ben brings to the table. He makes up for a major weakness this team has had when the O line started crumbling starting in 2006.

What's funny is I am one of those people who thought Ben hadn't been playing very well at the start of the season. Just because I didn't think he was playing well doesn't mean I EVER wanted to get rid of him. I just wanted to see what others thought about his play and possible reasons for his game not being up to the Ben standard. I am shocked that some here think Ben is just an average run of the mill QB.

As far as my feelings on Ben's "elite" status ... I don't think he is an elite passer but I do think he is an elite QB. There is a big difference between a passer and a QB in my mind.

Dee Dub
10-25-2011, 11:59 AM
An Exceptional Organization and Exceptional Defensive units equals Roethlisberger's rings. He is not elite sir.

Cam Newton,....whether we like the kid or not as a person,... is even now a superior QB and athlete than Roethlisberger ever was, going back to his (Roethlisberger) only playing a single year at the position in high school,.... to scrambling recklessly, playing terribly in big games and throwing nearly nothing but deep balls and picks at Miami of Ohio.

Nothing has changed with this guy on the football field in all of these years.


Why exactly is it heresy for some of Steeler Nation to voice their opinion about Roethlisberger if that said opinion has nothing to do with believing him to be elite, polished accurate, consistent, intelligent or underrated at all in any sense ?


My friend if you are going to attack someone please be accurate with your information.

Ben threw 84 TD's and 34 INT's while at Miami of Ohio. He also completed 65.5% of his passes in college and has completed 63.1% in the NFL.

Throwing nothing but deep balls and picks at Miami of Ohio is far from what he did. And his completion percentage in college and pro says otherwise to your claim he is inaccurate. But this is one of my points for this thread. When you dislike someone generally your view of that person is skewed in a way that isnt always accurate.

And why do I get the felling that Dresden sounds a lot like someone else on this forum?

Slapstick
10-25-2011, 12:06 PM
I'm not knocking what Ben brings to the table but he is light years ahead of the QB's we had from Bradshaw to Maddox.

We made it to a lot of AFFCG's with horrible to average QB's... getting over the hump doesn't prove Ben is "elite" it just proves he is better than those other QB's we had under Cowher.

Now, I'm not saying Ben isn't elite... I just think SB rings aren't the measuring stick for that title given some of the QB's with rings and how close we came with other QB's.


To me, that's just it:

Who cares how close other Steelers QBs came under Cowher? They couldn't get it done with an exceptional defense and an exceptional running game...

Also, there are QBs who have SB rings that cannot be considered "elite"...Trent Dilfer comes to mind...but, QBs who aren't elite don't start in multiple SBs...

Was Jim Kelly elite? Yes...ringless, yet elite...

Kurt Warner? Sure...1-2 in SBs, but elite nonetheless...

I just believe that it takes an elite QB to have the level of sustained success that the Steelers have had since 2004...

papillon
10-25-2011, 02:29 PM
I'm not knocking what Ben brings to the table but he is light years ahead of the QB's we had from Bradshaw to Maddox.

We made it to a lot of AFFCG's with horrible to average QB's... getting over the hump doesn't prove Ben is "elite" it just proves he is better than those other QB's we had under Cowher.

Now, I'm not saying Ben isn't elite... I just think SB rings aren't the measuring stick for that title given some of the QB's with rings and how close we came with other QB's.

I would like to see Ben and the O look respectable vs good D's more often.

Exactly right, Ben is light years ahead of Tomczak, Maddox, Miller, Brister, Graham, O'Donnell, Stewart, Quinn, etc and while the Steelers had some down years from 1991 to 2004 and drafting Ben, the defense was there many times and none of those quarterbacks could win a SB.

Ben was drafted, had a good running game (that was always there), a good defense (that was there most of the time) and he's now won 2 SBs and participated in three. So, I would have to think that Ben has made the difference. If all you needed was a running game, good defense and an average or below average quarterback the Steelers should have had a handful of rings between 1991 and 2004 before Ben was drafted.

Whether fans want to admit it or not, whether they like Ben or not, there's no denying that he's the difference between having 4 Lombardi's and 6 Lombardi's. Sorry guys, Ben put the Steelers over the top. And, as long he's the quarterback the Steelers will have a chance, IMO, even when he's bad Ben, he manages to make plays that give the team a chance to win (not always, but a lot).

It may not be pretty like Brady, Rogers and Brees, but it's effective and that's all that really matters at the end of the day (It's kind of fun to watch as well.).

Pappy

BradshawsHairdresser
10-25-2011, 02:56 PM
Whether fans want to admit it or not, whether they like Ben or not, there's no denying that he's the difference between having 4 Lombardi's and 6 Lombardi's. Sorry guys, Ben put the Steelers over the top. And, as long he's the quarterback the Steelers will have a chance, IMO, even when he's bad Ben, he manages to make plays that give the team a chance to win (not always, but a lot).

It may not be pretty like Brady, Rogers and Brees, but it's effective and that's all that really matters at the end of the day (It's kind of fun to watch as well.).

Pappy

I like Ben, and I'm glad we have him, but I can't agree that "it's effective" when he's "bad Ben." It's VERY effective when he's "GOOD Ben," but when he's "bad Ben," not so much. When he's "GOOD Ben," he's VERY fun to watch; when he's "bad Ben," not so much.

I don't care all that much about statistics, but I just want us to have, consistently, the play of "GOOD Ben" on the field...if that happens, we have a great chance of getting to another Super Bowl. If it doesn't happen, not so much.

Again, as I've said before, with the exception of maybe a couple of posters, I think we ultimately all want the same thing: Ben to play well. Because when he plays well, most of the time the Steelers will come away with a "W".

feltdizz
10-25-2011, 03:24 PM
I'm not knocking what Ben brings to the table but he is light years ahead of the QB's we had from Bradshaw to Maddox.

We made it to a lot of AFFCG's with horrible to average QB's... getting over the hump doesn't prove Ben is "elite" it just proves he is better than those other QB's we had under Cowher.

Now, I'm not saying Ben isn't elite... I just think SB rings aren't the measuring stick for that title given some of the QB's with rings and how close we came with other QB's.

I would like to see Ben and the O look respectable vs good D's more often.

Exactly right, Ben is light years ahead of Tomczak, Maddox, Miller, Brister, Graham, O'Donnell, Stewart, Quinn, etc and while the Steelers had some down years from 1991 to 2004 and drafting Ben, the defense was there many times and none of those quarterbacks could win a SB.

Ben was drafted, had a good running game (that was always there), a good defense (that was there most of the time) and he's now won 2 SBs and participated in three. So, I would have to think that Ben has made the difference. If all you needed was a running game, good defense and an average or below average quarterback the Steelers should have had a handful of rings between 1991 and 2004 before Ben was drafted.

Whether fans want to admit it or not, whether they like Ben or not, there's no denying that he's the difference between having 4 Lombardi's and 6 Lombardi's. Sorry guys, Ben put the Steelers over the top. And, as long he's the quarterback the Steelers will have a chance, IMO, even when he's bad Ben, he manages to make plays that give the team a chance to win (not always, but a lot).

It may not be pretty like Brady, Rogers and Brees, but it's effective and that's all that really matters at the end of the day (It's kind of fun to watch as well.).

Pappy

I said Ben was the difference and the reason we won 2 SB's.... but if your team has been to 4 or 5 AFCCG's and a SB with average QB's it doesn't prove Ben is "elite" because he got them over the hump.

Look at that list... it's horrible and we still had 4 to 5 chances to make a SB and win one of them. That is MY point... Ben is the difference but it's hard to say he is "elite" due to the rings.

I want to see the 2004, 2005 Ben and maybe we will never see it with our OL and BA but I see glimpses of it... however, every time good Ben shows up I can almost guarantee bad Ben is just around the corner.

I wouldn't trade him for the world but I can tell the difference between good Ben and Bad Ben...

Slapstick
10-25-2011, 03:48 PM
Look at that list... it's horrible and we still had 4 to 5 chances to make a SB and win one of them. That is MY point... Ben is the difference but it's hard to say he is "elite" due to the rings.

But, the Steelers couldn't win one, let alone two, without Ben...

The rings are the very reason he's elite...

papillon
10-25-2011, 03:50 PM
Whether fans want to admit it or not, whether they like Ben or not, there's no denying that he's the difference between having 4 Lombardi's and 6 Lombardi's. Sorry guys, Ben put the Steelers over the top. And, as long he's the quarterback the Steelers will have a chance, IMO, even when he's bad Ben, he manages to make plays that give the team a chance to win (not always, but a lot).

It may not be pretty like Brady, Rogers and Brees, but it's effective and that's all that really matters at the end of the day (It's kind of fun to watch as well.).

Pappy

I like Ben, and I'm glad we have him, but I can't agree that "it's effective" when he's "bad Ben." It's VERY effective when he's "GOOD Ben," but when he's "bad Ben," not so much. When he's "GOOD Ben," he's VERY fun to watch; when he's "bad Ben," not so much.

I don't care all that much about statistics, but I just want us to have, consistently, the play of "GOOD Ben" on the field...if that happens, we have a great chance of getting to another Super Bowl. If it doesn't happen, not so much.

Again, as I've said before, with the exception of maybe a couple of posters, I think we ultimately all want the same thing: Ben to play well. Because when he plays well, most of the time the Steelers will come away with a "W".

Well, they had a pretty bad Ben in SB XLIII, but he made 2 or 3 plays with his arm and legs and it was effective enough to win the game. I readily admit that bad Ben puts them at a disadvantage and he can't always make a silk purse out of a sow's ear, but by and large, even when he isn't on his game the Steelers have a chance.

Ben will never be a consistent quarterback like all the prototypical quarterbacks because he doesn't play the position that way. There are too many opportunities for Ben to be bad Ben simply because of the way he plays. He never gives up on a play, he'll make ill advised throws with defenders hanging on him, he'll take sacks looking for a big play, he'll eschew the easy completion for 5 yards to try and force a 25 yarder in a tight window, etc., it's how he plays and consistency isn't going to be a strong suit with that style.

Ben is consistent in winning games though and that's good enough for me. He may be the first HOF quarterback to only play in one Pro-Bowl, but Vince Young will have been in 2, Kerry Collins a pair, David Garrard in 1, etc. That's funny right there and I don't who ya are, Vince Young. :D

Pappy

papillon
10-25-2011, 03:56 PM
I'm not knocking what Ben brings to the table but he is light years ahead of the QB's we had from Bradshaw to Maddox.

We made it to a lot of AFFCG's with horrible to average QB's... getting over the hump doesn't prove Ben is "elite" it just proves he is better than those other QB's we had under Cowher.

Now, I'm not saying Ben isn't elite... I just think SB rings aren't the measuring stick for that title given some of the QB's with rings and how close we came with other QB's.

I would like to see Ben and the O look respectable vs good D's more often.

Exactly right, Ben is light years ahead of Tomczak, Maddox, Miller, Brister, Graham, O'Donnell, Stewart, Quinn, etc and while the Steelers had some down years from 1991 to 2004 and drafting Ben, the defense was there many times and none of those quarterbacks could win a SB.

Ben was drafted, had a good running game (that was always there), a good defense (that was there most of the time) and he's now won 2 SBs and participated in three. So, I would have to think that Ben has made the difference. If all you needed was a running game, good defense and an average or below average quarterback the Steelers should have had a handful of rings between 1991 and 2004 before Ben was drafted.

Whether fans want to admit it or not, whether they like Ben or not, there's no denying that he's the difference between having 4 Lombardi's and 6 Lombardi's. Sorry guys, Ben put the Steelers over the top. And, as long he's the quarterback the Steelers will have a chance, IMO, even when he's bad Ben, he manages to make plays that give the team a chance to win (not always, but a lot).

It may not be pretty like Brady, Rogers and Brees, but it's effective and that's all that really matters at the end of the day (It's kind of fun to watch as well.).

Pappy

I said Ben was the difference and the reason we won 2 SB's.... but if your team has been to 4 or 5 AFCCG's and a SB with average QB's it doesn't prove Ben is "elite" because he got them over the hump.

Look at that list... it's horrible and we still had 4 to 5 chances to make a SB and win one of them. That is MY point... Ben is the difference but it's hard to say he is "elite" due to the rings.

I want to see the 2004, 2005 Ben and maybe we will never see it with our OL and BA but I see glimpses of it... however, every time good Ben shows up I can almost guarantee bad Ben is just around the corner.

I wouldn't trade him for the world but I can tell the difference between good Ben and Bad Ben...

I would never say that there isn't a bad Ben, there is, the good news is that on occasion when bad Ben shows up, good Ben plays just enough to overcome bad Ben and I think it's that Jekyll and Hyde Ben that makes people nuts. They see what he can do when he's good and expect it all the time, but his style doesn't lend itself to that very well. That's why I've simply started enjoying the ride, because when its good, man its good and when its bad, its exciting, but not satisfying.

The 2004 and 2005 Ben was game manager Ben and that's a bad word in these parts to be considered a game manager. I'd take that in a heart beat as well, because, Ben managed a game like no quarterback before him in his rookie and second years. I personally don't think being a game manager is bad, it's really what Brady, Rogers, Brees and Manning (when healthy) do all the time, they manage the game for their team.

Ben will never be that again.

Pappy

williar
10-25-2011, 05:43 PM
I'm not knocking what Ben brings to the table but he is light years ahead of the QB's we had from Bradshaw to Maddox.

We made it to a lot of AFFCG's with horrible to average QB's... getting over the hump doesn't prove Ben is "elite" it just proves he is better than those other QB's we had under Cowher.

Now, I'm not saying Ben isn't elite... I just think SB rings aren't the measuring stick for that title given some of the QB's with rings and how close we came with other QB's.

I would like to see Ben and the O look respectable vs good D's more often.

Exactly right, Ben is light years ahead of Tomczak, Maddox, Miller, Brister, Graham, O'Donnell, Stewart, Quinn, etc and while the Steelers had some down years from 1991 to 2004 and drafting Ben, the defense was there many times and none of those quarterbacks could win a SB.

Ben was drafted, had a good running game (that was always there), a good defense (that was there most of the time) and he's now won 2 SBs and participated in three. So, I would have to think that Ben has made the difference. If all you needed was a running game, good defense and an average or below average quarterback the Steelers should have had a handful of rings between 1991 and 2004 before Ben was drafted.

Whether fans want to admit it or not, whether they like Ben or not, there's no denying that he's the difference between having 4 Lombardi's and 6 Lombardi's. Sorry guys, Ben put the Steelers over the top. And, as long he's the quarterback the Steelers will have a chance, IMO, even when he's bad Ben, he manages to make plays that give the team a chance to win (not always, but a lot).

It may not be pretty like Brady, Rogers and Brees, but it's effective and that's all that really matters at the end of the day (It's kind of fun to watch as well.).

Pappy

I said Ben was the difference and the reason we won 2 SB's.... but if your team has been to 4 or 5 AFCCG's and a SB with average QB's it doesn't prove Ben is "elite" because he got them over the hump.

Look at that list... it's horrible and we still had 4 to 5 chances to make a SB and win one of them. That is MY point... Ben is the difference but it's hard to say he is "elite" due to the rings.

I want to see the 2004, 2005 Ben and maybe we will never see it with our OL and BA but I see glimpses of it... however, every time good Ben shows up I can almost guarantee bad Ben is just around the corner.

I wouldn't trade him for the world but I can tell the difference between good Ben and Bad Ben...

I would never say that there isn't a bad Ben, there is, the good news is that on occasion when bad Ben shows up, good Ben plays just enough to overcome bad Ben and I think it's that Jekyll and Hyde Ben that makes people nuts. They see what he can do when he's good and expect it all the time, but his style doesn't lend itself to that very well. That's why I've simply started enjoying the ride, because when its good, man its good and when its bad, its exciting, but not satisfying.

The 2004 and 2005 Ben was game manager Ben and that's a bad word in these parts to be considered a game manager. I'd take that in a heart beat as well, because, Ben managed a game like no quarterback before him in his rookie and second years. I personally don't think being a game manager is bad, it's really what Brady, Rogers, Brees and Manning (when healthy) do all the time, they manage the game for their team.

Ben will never be that again.

Pappy

When Ben has a bad game (he's had many) and is the reason that we lose, will you ever publicly acknowledge that, Pappy?

grotonsteel
10-25-2011, 06:28 PM
I'm not knocking what Ben brings to the table but he is light years ahead of the QB's we had from Bradshaw to Maddox.

We made it to a lot of AFFCG's with horrible to average QB's... getting over the hump doesn't prove Ben is "elite" it just proves he is better than those other QB's we had under Cowher.

Now, I'm not saying Ben isn't elite... I just think SB rings aren't the measuring stick for that title given some of the QB's with rings and how close we came with other QB's.

I would like to see Ben and the O look respectable vs good D's more often.

Exactly right, Ben is light years ahead of Tomczak, Maddox, Miller, Brister, Graham, O'Donnell, Stewart, Quinn, etc and while the Steelers had some down years from 1991 to 2004 and drafting Ben, the defense was there many times and none of those quarterbacks could win a SB.

Ben was drafted, had a good running game (that was always there), a good defense (that was there most of the time) and he's now won 2 SBs and participated in three. So, I would have to think that Ben has made the difference. If all you needed was a running game, good defense and an average or below average quarterback the Steelers should have had a handful of rings between 1991 and 2004 before Ben was drafted.

Whether fans want to admit it or not, whether they like Ben or not, there's no denying that he's the difference between having 4 Lombardi's and 6 Lombardi's. Sorry guys, Ben put the Steelers over the top. And, as long he's the quarterback the Steelers will have a chance, IMO, even when he's bad Ben, he manages to make plays that give the team a chance to win (not always, but a lot).

It may not be pretty like Brady, Rogers and Brees, but it's effective and that's all that really matters at the end of the day (It's kind of fun to watch as well.).

Pappy

I said Ben was the difference and the reason we won 2 SB's.... but if your team has been to 4 or 5 AFCCG's and a SB with average QB's it doesn't prove Ben is "elite" because he got them over the hump.

Look at that list... it's horrible and we still had 4 to 5 chances to make a SB and win one of them. That is MY point... Ben is the difference but it's hard to say he is "elite" due to the rings.

I want to see the 2004, 2005 Ben and maybe we will never see it with our OL and BA but I see glimpses of it... however, every time good Ben shows up I can almost guarantee bad Ben is just around the corner.

I wouldn't trade him for the world but I can tell the difference between good Ben and Bad Ben...

I would never say that there isn't a bad Ben, there is, the good news is that on occasion when bad Ben shows up, good Ben plays just enough to overcome bad Ben and I think it's that Jekyll and Hyde Ben that makes people nuts. They see what he can do when he's good and expect it all the time, but his style doesn't lend itself to that very well. That's why I've simply started enjoying the ride, because when its good, man its good and when its bad, its exciting, but not satisfying.

The 2004 and 2005 Ben was game manager Ben and that's a bad word in these parts to be considered a game manager. I'd take that in a heart beat as well, because, Ben managed a game like no quarterback before him in his rookie and second years. I personally don't think being a game manager is bad, it's really what Brady, Rogers, Brees and Manning (when healthy) do all the time, they manage the game for their team.

Ben will never be that again.

Pappy

When Ben has a bad game (he's had many) and is the reason that we lose, will you ever publicly acknowledge that, Pappy?

Well i am not sure about pappy but i will acknowledge Ben is the reason Steelers lose once you acknowledge Ben is the reason Steelers win.

BradshawsHairdresser
10-25-2011, 08:15 PM
Well, they had a pretty bad Ben in SB XLIII, but he made 2 or 3 plays with his arm and legs and it was effective enough to win the game. I readily admit that bad Ben puts them at a disadvantage and he can't always make a silk purse out of a sow's ear, but by and large, even when he isn't on his game the Steelers have a chance.

Ben will never be a consistent quarterback like all the prototypical quarterbacks because he doesn't play the position that way. There are too many opportunities for Ben to be bad Ben simply because of the way he plays. He never gives up on a play, he'll make ill advised throws with defenders hanging on him, he'll take sacks looking for a big play, he'll eschew the easy completion for 5 yards to try and force a 25 yarder in a tight window, etc., it's how he plays and consistency isn't going to be a strong suit with that style.

Here's where you and I will have to agree to disagree. I believe Ben CAN be more consistent, if he WANTS to be. He can LEARN that there are times when, for the sake of a four-yard gain, it's better NOT to risk a pick-six. He can learn that if he is patient, and takes his checkdowns, the big stuff down the field will open up.


Ben is consistent in winning games though and that's good enough for me. He may be the first HOF quarterback to only play in one Pro-Bowl, but Vince Young will have been in 2, Kerry Collins a pair, David Garrard in 1, etc. That's funny right there and I don't who ya are, Vince Young. :D

Pappy

I don't really care if he ever makes another Pro-Bowl, but I sure would like to see him get another Lombardi. That's the only award that really matters, IMO. But in order for that to happen? Consistent, good play from Ben would make it a LOT more likely.

papillon
10-25-2011, 10:17 PM
When Ben has a bad game (he's had many) and is the reason that we lose, will you ever publicly acknowledge that, Pappy?

You just haven't been around long enough. I've said many times that Ben has played bad along with Polamalu, Harrison, Tomlin, Lebeau, etc, etc, admitting that they had a bad game doesn't make them bad players or coaches.

On the other hand it seems impossible for you to give Ben any credit for the Steeler success over the past 7 years. It's all good though, you're more than welcome to believe that Ben isn't all that good and that the defense has been winning everything despite Ben, not because of Ben.

I acknowledge that without the defense, Ben doesn't have two rings, of course, the inverse is true and the defense wouldn't have two rings without Ben. So, we can sit and debate how good or bad Ben is or isn't, but at the end of the day, I believe that in a quarterback driven league Ben gives the Steelers a chance to compete week in and week out.

Pappy

hawaiiansteel
10-27-2011, 04:04 PM
Ed: Big Ben Wins the Belts

THURSDAY, 27 OCTOBER 2011 WRITTEN BY ED BOUCHETTE


A locker room can be an interesting place, even for some of us who only enter for a short time and are really outsiders.

Take, for example, this scene: Left tackle Marcus Gilbert is stretched out on the floor, his head inside the open lockers. Next to him, right tackle Max Starks sits on his stool, scrolling through the messages on his phone. In walks Ben Roethlisberger, whose locker is in the corner near the two tackles.

Ben has what looks like two WWE championship belts slung over his shoulders. One is for the individual shuffleboard championship he had just won in the locker room. The other is for the tag-team shuffleboard championship he won.

He's sitting at his locker, one belt on each shoulder, and he's trying to take a photo of himself. He wants to send it to pro wrestler Triple H, with whom he's become friends.

Across the locker room, Ike Taylor is holding court with a small group of the media. Someone asks him if any deep wide receiver threat in the league scares him.

"Don't nobody scare nobody,'' Taylor says. "If you're scared, you shouldn't be playing."

But if you're looking for someone who might fit that description, "Mike Wallace is that guy,'' Taylor explains.

"He just got speed you can't even coach. He don't even run properly, so that's scary. When a guy's running past people and don't have no technique on running, don't know how to run, really, that's scary. He runs like he's on the playground, like he was a little kid. His form isn't right, arms out wide, but everytime you see him he's running past people."

Ike was on a roll.

"Mike Wallace is Mike Wallace. Mike Wallace is the hotest thing going, a.k.a one of the Bugatti Boys, a.k.a CEO of Young Money. So they see the boy on tape, they see Mike on tape."

http://plus.sites.post-gazette.com/inde ... -the-belts (http://plus.sites.post-gazette.com/index.php/pro-sports/steelers/112835-ed-big-ben-wins-the-belts)

feltdizz
10-27-2011, 05:40 PM
Don't nobody scare nobody? Mike Wallace is Mike Wallace... LOL

Ike will not be an analyst after football.

Swaggin'

Slapstick
10-28-2011, 08:47 AM
I don't really care if he ever makes another Pro-Bowl, but I sure would like to see him get another Lombardi. That's the only award that really matters, IMO.

So, Ben's elite then?

feltdizz
10-28-2011, 09:24 AM
I don't really care if he ever makes another Pro-Bowl, but I sure would like to see him get another Lombardi. That's the only award that really matters, IMO.

So, Ben's elite then?

I think he is saying the ring is more important than Ben being called elite.

Rings over personal accolades.