Kugler IS the O-line coach after all ...

[SanAntonioSteelerFan]

But I don't really blame him, he made chicken soup of out chicken, err, niblets, all season last year.

He's down to beaks and chicken lips. Even Merlin the Magician couldn't protect Ben together with that crew!

:lol: :lol:

[papillon]

I'm not sure about Kugler, at first he seemed to be making something out of nothing with the O-line. I'm beginning to wonder about the following. The last line he coached in Buffalo had injury issues and was a patchwork line and the first two seasons with the Steelers the offensive linemen are going down like flies. Is it something he's doing or not doing that is causing offensive linemen to be injured?

Pappy

[Pahn711]

Eh, I'd still blame the front office for not coveting lineman enough. They could have brought in a difference maker like Gurode or Mckinnie as the Ravens did, they chose not to. They could have found a way to keep Flozell Adams, they chose not to. Heck, they could have given up a first round pick next year to get Mike Pouncey, they chose not to.

Kugler can only do so much without talent to work with.

[steeler_george]

I am starting to believe that KUGLER is a jinx.

[ramblinjim]

Eh, I don't go with Jinxes, other than the clothes that I'm wearing on game day, the beer I drink, the food I eat, the socks my wife wears... you know....

Hard to blame Kugler on this and in the FO's defense, we spent a 1st on a lineman last year and a second this year. There's only so much you can do and we rarely bring in top flight free agents.

Assuming we pick in the middle of the pack this year, I would have no hesitations drafting the best OT & the best OG in the first two rounds next year and trying to work some talent into the O-line.

[Oviedo]

Eh, I'd still blame the front office for not coveting lineman enough. They could have brought in a difference maker like Gurode or Mckinnie as the Ravens did, they chose not to. They could have found a way to keep Flozell Adams, they chose not to. Heck, they could have given up a first round pick next year to get Mike Pouncey, they chose not to.

Kugler can only do so much without talent to work with.

To a degree I agree with you. We have not done well bringing in OL talent but in a league with a cap you have to economize in some positional unit if you are going to spend big dollars in other areas like the defense. We have invested heavily in keeping defensive players because IMO it takes so long to learn the defense you can't easily replace them with lower priced young players. The problem is that we are overpaying veteran defensive players like Aaron Smith and James Farrior which has limited our ability to have the cap space to go out and get some quality on the OL.

With a salary cap you have a zero some gain with talent acquisition. Last year Flozell was an anomoly because there was no cap. If we are going to improve the OL we have to draft better and dump aging players fans love like: Smith, Farrior, Hampton, etc.

[feltdizz]

I'm not sure about Kugler, at first he seemed to be making something out of nothing with the O-line. I'm beginning to wonder about the following. The last line he coached in Buffalo had injury issues and was a patchwork line and the first two seasons with the Steelers the offensive linemen are going down like flies. Is it something he's doing or not doing that is causing offensive linemen to be injured?

Pappy

:Agree

if you look at his last 4 years his OL has a ton of injuries. Something isn't right...

[Oviedo]

I'm not sure about Kugler, at first he seemed to be making something out of nothing with the O-line. I'm beginning to wonder about the following. The last line he coached in Buffalo had injury issues and was a patchwork line and the first two seasons with the Steelers the offensive linemen are going down like flies. Is it something he's doing or not doing that is causing offensive linemen to be injured?

Pappy

:Agree

if you look at his last 4 years his OL has a ton of injuries. Something isn't right...

Guys, don't make Kugler a scapegoat here. Remember, kugler was a godsend 12 months ago because Larry Z. was blamed for everything. It starts and ends with talent. Except for Pouncey, and he may not be as good as we thought last year, we have no talent on the OL. Once Colon went down we were left with 2nd and 3rd string players on most NFL teams being starters for us.

The reality is that when the front office laid out the allocation of cap dollars to positional units they tried to economize on the OL because it is typically measured more by group performance than individual performance. They took a risk and lost the gamble. Not sying they screwed up but they did what they had to to sign a franchise QB to a long term deal and keep a large number of defensive player with very large contracts.

I'm betting this off season they do a major shake up and relook their approach.

[feltdizz]

Kugler isn't the scape goat but he is in the equation when it comes to the bad OL play.

Was Kugs really a hero or were we just happy to see a new OL coach?

[SidSmythe]

Look at what Kuglar had to work with ...

I give the guy credit . . . he worked under Jim McNally (probably 1 of the best OL Coaches in our time whom i've personally met and watched coach in person). I think he's just been given lemons and he's made about as much lemonade as he can get.

He's done good with Pouncey and I would love to see if he can develop Gilbert.

He brought Jonathan Scott from Buffalo ... I think he was meant to be a backup in this league and now he's the starter and that's a tough task for Kuglar.

[feltdizz]

Look at what Kuglar had to work with ...

I give the guy credit . . . he worked under Jim McNally (probably 1 of the best OL Coaches in our time whom i've personally met and watched coach in person). I think he's just been given lemons and he's made about as much lemonade as he can get.

He's done good with Pouncey and I would love to see if he can develop Gilbert.

He brought Jonathan Scott from Buffalo ... I think he was meant to be a backup in this league and now he's the starter and that's a tough task for Kuglar.

ehhh.... is he really making lemonade? This OL is horrible. Pouncey would look great regardless of the OL coach because he is a great player.

I think we need to see some development from the new guys and improvement from guys like Kemo.

Anyone Kugler brought with him would have a hand up because they already know his system.

[steeler_fan_in_t.o.]

J Scott - 5th rounder
Kemo - 6th rounder
Pouncey - 1st rounder
Legursky - UDFA
Colon - 4th rounder
Essex - 3rd rounder
Foster - UDFA
C Scott - 5th rounder
Gilbert (R) - 2nd rounder
Meredith - 5th rounder

Anyone really willing to point the finger at Kugler?

[grotonsteel]

J Scott - 5th rounder
Kemo - 6th rounder
Pouncey - 1st rounder
Legursky - UDFA
Colon - 4th rounder
Essex - 3rd rounder
Foster - UDFA
C Scott - 5th rounder
Gilbert (R) - 2nd rounder
Meredith - 5th rounder

Anyone really willing to point the finger at Kugler?

2008 draft is coming to haunt Steelers.

I know Steelers never thought of drafting O-line early in last decade but one thing that haunts me is Bills O-line looked far better once Kugler was fired. Also regarding injuries is it just bad luck or something else? Bills used to have injured O-linemen and now Steelers are having them.

[Northern_Blitz]

Eh, I'd still blame the front office for not coveting lineman enough. They could have brought in a difference maker like Gurode or Mckinnie as the Ravens did, they chose not to. They could have found a way to keep Flozell Adams, they chose not to. Heck, they could have given up a first round pick next year to get Mike Pouncey, they chose not to.

Kugler can only do so much without talent to work with.

We did spend big money on RT this year. Unfortunately, Colon got injured and now we're screwed at tackle.

[RuthlessBurgher]

2008 draft is coming to haunt Steelers.

2008 is the year in which 7 OT's were off the board in the first 21 picks (and we picked 23rd). Should we have reached for the #8 OT in Duane Brown in the first round that year? A few really good OL came out of that draft (like Jake Long and Ryan Clady), but we had no shot at guys like that, so there is no need to fret about such things. The only Pro Bowl quality O-lineman in that draft who was not taken before our first pick in 2008 was Carl Nicks, and he fell all the way to the middle of the 5th round (so every NFL was wrong about that guy on numerous occassions...he should have been drafted much earlier, but every team passed on him several times).

[feltdizz]

J Scott - 5th rounder
Kemo - 6th rounder
Pouncey - 1st rounder
Legursky - UDFA
Colon - 4th rounder
Essex - 3rd rounder
Foster - UDFA
C Scott - 5th rounder
Gilbert (R) - 2nd rounder
Meredith - 5th rounder

Anyone really willing to point the finger at Kugler?

doesn't matter... these guys are all football players and they should be playing at a higher level than they are playing. These guys look like they don't practice during the week.

Redman was undrafted and look what he is able to do behind this OL. You can't blame the draft for everything. Maybe we are picking the worst of the worst but I doubt it. Either the scheme is too hard or Ben and BA aren't calling the right plays. No way does an OL look this bad and it's all due to the draft.

[focosteeler]

Eh, I'd still blame the front office for not coveting lineman enough. They could have brought in a difference maker like Gurode or Mckinnie as the Ravens did, they chose not to. They could have found a way to keep Flozell Adams, they chose not to. Heck, they could have given up a first round pick next year to get Mike Pouncey, they chose not to.

Kugler can only do so much without talent to work with.

To a degree I agree with you. We have not done well bringing in OL talent but in a league with a cap you have to economize in some positional unit if you are going to spend big dollars in other areas like the defense. We have invested heavily in keeping defensive players because IMO it takes so long to learn the defense you can't easily replace them with lower priced young players. The problem is that we are overpaying veteran defensive players like Aaron Smith and James Farrior which has limited our ability to have the cap space to go out and get some quality on the OL.

With a salary cap you have a zero some gain with talent acquisition. Last year Flozell was an anomoly because there was no cap. If we are going to improve the OL we have to draft better and dump aging players fans love like: Smith, Farrior, Hampton, etc.

i would not be surprised to see at least smith gone after this year. depending on the way the rest of the season goes i could see farrior gone too. Im not sure about hampton, for me the jury is still out on him. i mean you cant rag on a guy for getting chop blocked.

at least some of the money from them leaving will go to wallace but that leaves some for a decent FA lineman

[grotonsteel]

2008 draft is coming to haunt Steelers.

2008 is the year in which 7 OT's were off the board in the first 21 picks (and we picked 23rd). Should we have reached for the #8 OT in Duane Brown in the first round that year? A few really good OL came out of that draft (like Jake Long and Ryan Clady), but we had no shot at guys like that, so there is no need to fret about such things. The only Pro Bowl quality O-lineman in that draft who was not taken before our first pick in 2008 was Carl Nicks, and he fell all the way to the middle of the 5th round (so every NFL was wrong about that guy on numerous occassions...he should have been drafted much earlier, but every team passed on him several times).

I should not have posted about 2008 draft in this thread regarding OL. My bad.

I am not saying Steelers should have reached for OT in 1st Rd especially when teams were picking lot of OL help. But Steelers whiffed at entire 2008 draft and i think that just put team in a bad position2-3 years down the line. If Mendy would have turned into Darren McFadden or CJ or ray Rice no one would be complaining.If Sweed had turned into a Red Zone target it would have been great but Steelers went for weapons to protect their QB and they turned out to be damp squib.

Hindsight is 20/20 but Duane Brown and Ray Rice would have looked far better than Mendy and Sweed.Heck CJ and Cliff Avril would have made that entire draft look better. I think Carl Nicks dropped because of his age or personal conduct in that draft.

I am complaining about 2008 draft because we did not get any Offensive Line help nor did we get any weapons to protect our QB.

[focosteeler]

J Scott - 5th rounder
Kemo - 6th rounder
Pouncey - 1st rounder
Legursky - UDFA
Colon - 4th rounder
Essex - 3rd rounder
Foster - UDFA
C Scott - 5th rounder
Gilbert (R) - 2nd rounder
Meredith - 5th rounder

Anyone really willing to point the finger at Kugler?

doesn't matter... these guys are all football players and they should be playing at a higher level than they are playing. These guys look like they don't practice during the week.

Redman was undrafted and look what he is able to do behind this OL. You can't blame the draft for everything. Maybe we are picking the worst of the worst but I doubt it. Either the scheme is too hard or Ben and BA aren't calling the right plays. No way does an OL look this bad and it's all due to the draft.

Redman was undrafted because he went to Bowie State

[fezziwig]

It's obvious the Steelers don't place a lot of stock in drafting high round O-linemen. That is just wild to me not to protect your franchise quarterback.
I never understood getting Kugler as our O-line coach when, he didn't exactly do a terrific job with the Bills.

To me these o-linemen can't always be that bad so I think it's the lack of coaching. Be it the mental part, the drills, the weight lifting part or what have you.
Then I think it is the lack of quality players because we've been through three O-linemen coaches of late with no real improvement.

Either the other teams have all number one and two draft picks playing on their teams at the o-line positions ( and they don't )
or our front office can not recognize talent.
Seems like the only talent our team recognizes is the obvious first rounder and some second round players coming out of college.

With our pansy o-line and Ben getting killed and on the verge of a 60 sack record season, you would think BA would keep max protection in there for Ben.

[NJ-STEELER]

i think the scheme can hide some faults but most of these guys are getting whipped at the point of attack. thats not coaching. thats lack of talent ( OL talent... size, strength, quickness)

kind of like whats happening to aaron smith now. players are just rag dolling him out there

[Pahn711]

Eh, I'd still blame the front office for not coveting lineman enough. They could have brought in a difference maker like Gurode or Mckinnie as the Ravens did, they chose not to. They could have found a way to keep Flozell Adams, they chose not to. Heck, they could have given up a first round pick next year to get Mike Pouncey, they chose not to.


To a degree I agree with you. We have not done well bringing in OL talent but in a league with a cap you have to economize in some positional unit if you are going to spend big dollars in other areas like the defense. We have invested heavily in keeping defensive players because IMO it takes so long to learn the defense you can't easily replace them with lower priced young players. The problem is that we are overpaying veteran defensive players like Aaron Smith and James Farrior which has limited our ability to have the cap space to go out and get some quality on the OL.

With a salary cap you have a zero some gain with talent acquisition. Last year Flozell was an anomoly because there was no cap. If we are going to improve the OL we have to draft better and dump aging players fans love like: Smith, Farrior, Hampton, etc.

I believe Flozell's contract was for $5 million this year. If that is indeed what he wanted, why not give him a new one year deal with a signing bonus for a few million? I have to imagine that the contract could have been manageable under the cap in that situation. Maybe he wanted a lot more than that, or the Steelers found out he wasn't in shape, otherwise I can't comprehend letting go of him and Starks in the same year.

[RuthlessBurgher]

It's obvious the Steelers don't place a lot of stock in drafting high round O-linemen.

In the Cowher era, we tended to have quite a few highly drafted OL. Our starting OL in SBXL was Smith (2nd), Faneca (1st), Hartings (1st), Simmons (1st), Starks (3rd).

In the beginning of the Tomlin era, there were some excellent OL prospects available such as Joe Thomas, Jake Long, and Ryan Clady, but those guys flew off the board way before we had a chance to pick. The draft board in those years just didn't lend itself to us landing a top o-lineman early (and reaching is dangerous...remember Jamain Stephens?).

Would you rather Lawrence Timmons, or reach for Joe Staley? Would you rather Rashard Mendenhall or reach for Duane Brown? Would you rather Ziggy Hood or reach for Eben Britton?

In those years, we didn't ignore OL on purpose...it just so happened that the best we could do is try to unearth a mid-round gem those years (which we obviously failed to do with the likes of Cam Stephenson in the 5th in 07, Tony Hills in the 4th in 08, and Kraig Urbik in the 3rd in 09).

Recently, we have placed more of an emphasis on early OL picks with Maurkice Pouncey in the 1st in 2010 and Marcus Gilbert in the 2nd in 2011.

[steeler_fan_in_t.o.]

J Scott - 5th rounder
Kemo - 6th rounder
Pouncey - 1st rounder
Legursky - UDFA
Colon - 4th rounder
Essex - 3rd rounder
Foster - UDFA
C Scott - 5th rounder
Gilbert (R) - 2nd rounder
Meredith - 5th rounder

Anyone really willing to point the finger at Kugler?

doesn't matter... these guys are all football players and they should be playing at a higher level than they are playing. These guys look like they don't practice during the week.

Redman was undrafted and look what he is able to do behind this OL. You can't blame the draft for everything. Maybe we are picking the worst of the worst but I doubt it. Either the scheme is too hard or Ben and BA aren't calling the right plays. No way does an OL look this bad and it's all due to the draft.

Using this logic, why do we attend the draft at all? We should forfeit our first round pick every year because he would be a greater cap hit than any UDFA and all of them are football players. :roll:

[feltdizz]

[quote="steeler_fan_in_t.o.":1kwl4kns]J Scott - 5th rounder
Kemo - 6th rounder
Pouncey - 1st rounder
Legursky - UDFA
Colon - 4th rounder
Essex - 3rd rounder
Foster - UDFA
C Scott - 5th rounder
Gilbert (R) - 2nd rounder
Meredith - 5th rounder

Anyone really willing to point the finger at Kugler?

doesn't matter... these guys are all football players and they should be playing at a higher level than they are playing. These guys look like they don't practice during the week.

Redman was undrafted and look what he is able to do behind this OL. You can't blame the draft for everything. Maybe we are picking the worst of the worst but I doubt it. Either the scheme is too hard or Ben and BA aren't calling the right plays. No way does an OL look this bad and it's all due to the draft.

Using this logic, why do we attend the draft at all? We should forfeit our first round pick every year because he would be a greater cap hit than any UDFA and all of them are football players. :roll:[/quote:1kwl4kns]

What are you talking about? When did I say we should forfeit picks?

I'm simply suggesting that all good OL aren't found in the 1st round... if other teams are finding decent/good lineman in later rounds why do ours look so much worse?

I used Redman as an example of a player with talent who was a UDFA... if we can't find a good lineman from the 2nd to the 6th round we have no one to blame but scouting, coaching and play calling/execution.

[papillon]

The Steelers draft the best player available based on their ratings of the players. Except in the case when there's a player on the board that they really covet (see Troy Polamalu and Santonio Holmes) then they will make a move to obtain the player and fill a need. The BPA has not been an offensive lineman in the years that Tomlin has been the coach.

This draft process and signing your own free agents that you would pursue if they were in the FA market is how the Steelers run their organization and that isn't changing. Why should it? it's been fairly successful don't you think?

You hear the media-idiots say that the Steelers didn't do anything in FA, then I have a question. If Taylor, Woodley, Timmons and Woodley hit the FA market would they be Steelers? No, we'd be looking at Worilds on the outside, Mundy and Allen as safeties and Gay and Mcfadden as cornerbacks, how would that work out for the Steelers?

The Steelers made some decisions for this year and next believing that they had an opportunity to get back to the Super Bowl. It may not work out, but we don't know yet. If it doesn't, the Steelers will accept their decisions and move forward with trying to build the team, if it does work out, then great, it worked.

I doubt the Steelers fire or release anyone if this season goes south, they'll accept their decisions and try to correct them like sane people, they aren't firing Tomlin, Lebeau, and Arians and then release Woodley, Smith, Timmons and anyone else that the fans perceive as disposable.

They will evaluate the state of the team in the off season and put together a plan to rebuild or retool. It's like some of you just started being a fan of the Steelers just before the Raven debacle this year.

Pappy

[Discipline of Steel]

It's obvious the Steelers don't place a lot of stock in drafting high round O-linemen.

In the Cowher era, we tended to have quite a few highly drafted OL. Our starting OL in SBXL was Smith (2nd), Faneca (1st), Hartings (1st), Simmons (1st), Starks (3rd).

In the beginning of the Tomlin era, there were some excellent OL prospects available such as Joe Thomas, Jake Long, and Ryan Clady, but those guys flew off the board way before we had a chance to pick. The draft board in those years just didn't lend itself to us landing a top o-lineman early (and reaching is dangerous...remember Jamain Stephens?).

Would you rather Lawrence Timmons, or reach for Joe Staley? Would you rather Rashard Mendenhall or reach for Duane Brown? Would you rather Ziggy Hood or reach for Eben Britton?

In those years, we didn't ignore OL on purpose...it just so happened that the best we could do is try to unearth a mid-round gem those years (which we obviously failed to do with the likes of Cam Stephenson in the 5th in 07, Tony Hills in the 4th in 08, and Kraig Urbik in the 3rd in 09).

Recently, we have placed more of an emphasis on early OL picks with Maurkice Pouncey in the 1st in 2010 and Marcus Gilbert in the 2nd in 2011.

I always thought we gave up on Urbik too early and now he is a new starter for the surprisingly 3-1 Bills. I guess sometimes its a fine line between quality player and hack.

[feltdizz]

The Steelers may draft BPA but their selection an development of OL outside of Pouncey has been attrocious. I don't think anyone is questioning Timmons, Woodley, Troy etc in this thread. It's Legursky, Scott, Kemo, Essex, etc... and what he have done with them once they land on the starting OL that has me shakng my head. These guys look horrible. Other teams are selecting similar talent and getting much better results.

I know play calling and QB/RB decisions play a part but there are plenty of times our guys are blocking no one, looking inside to help while their guy runs upfield for a free shot. What is Kemo looking at when they stunt? It's like he has tunnel vision... where is the push 3 yards down field that other teams are gettig on Smith and Hood? I just want to see hat on hat for a good 5 yards. Ifthats askig for too much then we really do have OL coaching problems.

[Pahn711]

I always thought we gave up on Urbik too early and now he is a new starter for the surprisingly 3-1 Bills. I guess sometimes its a fine line between quality player and hack.

I'm not ready to declare Urbik a quality player in any regard. Since 2010 hes only started 4 games for the Bills, who btw doesn't have a great offensive line to begin with.

[BURGH86STEEL]

The Steelers may draft BPA but their selection an development of OL outside of Pouncey has been attrocious. I don't think anyone is questioning Timmons, Woodley, Troy etc in this thread. It's Legursky, Scott, Kemo, Essex, etc... and what he have done with them once they land on the starting OL that has me shakng my head. These guys look horrible. Other teams are selecting similar talent and getting much better results.

I know play calling and QB/RB decisions play a part but there are plenty of times our guys are blocking no one, looking inside to help while their guy runs upfield for a free shot. What is Kemo looking at when they stunt? It's like he has tunnel vision... where is the push 3 yards down field that other teams are gettig on Smith and Hood? I just want to see hat on hat for a good 5 yards. Ifthats askig for too much then we really do have OL coaching problems.

In fairness, this is not the Oline the Steelers believed they would have starting this season. Injuries killed any chance this Oline had to be a solid unit. Most teams can over come one or two losses. The Steelers loss at least 3 starters for games and others had to play with injuries. It's so bad that the backup to the backup had to play. Guys moving from the left side to the right side. Reminds me of the 2003 season.

There are a few teams around the league who's Olines are just as inconsistent as the Steelers. Seems to be a shortage of really good Olinemen in the league. That's why other teams have signed "has beens" that were cut from other teams in the hopes they can still perform well enough to have success. Only time will tell if those players will hold up.

[BURGH86STEEL]

The Steelers draft the best player available based on their ratings of the players. Except in the case when there's a player on the board that they really covet (see Troy Polamalu and Santonio Holmes) then they will make a move to obtain the player and fill a need. The BPA has not been an offensive lineman in the years that Tomlin has been the coach.

This draft process and signing your own free agents that you would pursue if they were in the FA market is how the Steelers run their organization and that isn't changing. Why should it? it's been fairly successful don't you think?

You hear the media-idiots say that the Steelers didn't do anything in FA, then I have a question. If Taylor, Woodley, Timmons and Woodley hit the FA market would they be Steelers? No, we'd be looking at Worilds on the outside, Mundy and Allen as safeties and Gay and Mcfadden as cornerbacks, how would that work out for the Steelers?

The Steelers made some decisions for this year and next believing that they had an opportunity to get back to the Super Bowl. It may not work out, but we don't know yet. If it doesn't, the Steelers will accept their decisions and move forward with trying to build the team, if it does, then great, it worked.

I doubt the Steelers fire or release anyone if this season goes south, they'll accept their decisions and try to correct them like sane people, they aren't firing Tomlin, Lebeau, and Arians and then release Woodley, Smith, Timmons and anyone else that the fans perceive as disposable.

They will evaluate the state of the team in the off season and out together a plan to rebuild or retool. It's like some of you just started being a fan of the Steelers just before the Raven debacle this year.

Pappy

This kind of analysis and logic is refreshing. I always feel that this is the kind of thinking that Steelers fans should have. Every year is not going to be a successful season.
Even if this season doesn't go as expected, I still feel this team still has a solid core of players to remain competitive for the next 3 to 4 seasons.

[papillon]

The Steelers may draft BPA but their selection an development of OL outside of Pouncey has been attrocious. I don't think anyone is questioning Timmons, Woodley, Troy etc in this thread. It's Legursky, Scott, Kemo, Essex, etc... and what he have done with them once they land on the starting OL that has me shakng my head. These guys look horrible. Other teams are selecting similar talent and getting much better results.

I know play calling and QB/RB decisions play a part but there are plenty of times our guys are blocking no one, looking inside to help while their guy runs upfield for a free shot. What is Kemo looking at when they stunt? It's like he has tunnel vision... where is the push 3 yards down field that other teams are getting on Smith and Hood? I just want to see hat on hat for a good 5 yards. If that's asking for too much then we really do have OL coaching problems.

No, there's someone jumping into thread after thread telling us that Batch is a better option than Ben, others are saying that Timmons and Woodley were wasted money and that Taylor while playing well is an average cornerback and that Troy is overrated. It's not only the Legursky, Scott, Kemo, etc that are being questioned.

Pappy