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View Full Version : One Big Fact about our O-Line



steelerkeylargo
09-14-2011, 12:09 PM
Other than Pouncey and to a lesser extent Kemo, the team has no real confidence in any position on the o-line. They continue to just throw crappy lineman up against the wall and see if anything sticks. As evidenced through pre-season by cutting Starks in favor of J. Scott then anointing Chris Scott and Tony Hills and onto bringing back Esssex and inserting Legursky the team has no clue if any of these guys can play. Furthermore if you think Gilbert is the answer...the guy had a less than stellar Senior year and actually looked better as a Junior. The guy is a natural guard and he will get Ben killed if he plays the whole year. This team had better be calling Flozell and looking into trading for somebody like a Kareem Mackenzie or a Joe Staley (last year of contracts). The fact is our OL is in DEEP trouble.

Mister Pittsburgh
09-14-2011, 12:25 PM
I am starting to think our OL blows somewhat by design. Most teams with a franchise QB spend a large chunk of their cap on skill players and the OL to protect their investment. We have the skill players on offense, but instead of spending a chunk of the cap on the OL we spend it on the defense.

Most of Ben's big plays are when the line breaks down and he starts running around adlibbing. We don't run a high powered offense like most teams because Ben isn't a timing oriented QB. He is a visual QB. This is why you don't see many timing patterns other than those stupid stay patterns from the bunch formation. You rarely see him throw to a spot and expect the WR to be there.

Look at how we scored the lone TD in Baltimore. Ben running around, WR hangs in there and Ben hits him. Total garbage play. Thats Ben, freaking best backyard football player on the planet but I think he would struggle in a well oiled machine type of offense. Maybe he sucks at pre-snap reads or evaluating defenses or something. No idea. But I do think that the Steelers don't view having a crappy OL with Ben a big deal. Might be why he is always there to defend them. They take such heat, but he knows they are doing the best they can, they just suck.

steelblood
09-14-2011, 12:48 PM
Maybe Kugs can coach up Gilbert. He looked solid in the preseason vs Trent Cole and John Abraham.

Jon Scott is what he is. But, he played pretty well last season in the playoffs. He'll never be better than average. But, I think he can be an average NFL tackle.

Dee Dub
09-14-2011, 01:41 PM
SKL, I dont agree with you. I think because of Gilbert's feet I think he can help in the long term. He needs to get stronger for run blocking but I think in pass protection at the very worst will do as well as Colon. And he has the ability to do even better. He is a second round pick..that means he needs some time to develop. He also needs some time out the with the first unit to get the much desired cohesiveness. What can be expected of a second round O-lineman who didn't have OTA's and a reduced camp who is now being thrown to the wolves? Give the guy a chance. And show some confidence in your scouting department and coaching staff. They saw enough in his senior year to draft in the second round. I'll go with that.

You can forget the Joe Staley's of the world. The Steelers will be $25 million over the cap next season.

flippy
09-14-2011, 01:48 PM
I am starting to think our OL blows somewhat by design. Most teams with a franchise QB spend a large chunk of their cap on skill players and the OL to protect their investment. We have the skill players on offense, but instead of spending a chunk of the cap on the OL we spend it on the defense.

Most of Ben's big plays are when the line breaks down and he starts running around adlibbing. We don't run a high powered offense like most teams because Ben isn't a timing oriented QB. He is a visual QB. This is why you don't see many timing patterns other than those stupid stay patterns from the bunch formation. You rarely see him throw to a spot and expect the WR to be there.

Look at how we scored the lone TD in Baltimore. Ben running around, WR hangs in there and Ben hits him. Total garbage play. Thats Ben, freaking best backyard football player on the planet but I think he would struggle in a well oiled machine type of offense. Maybe he sucks at pre-snap reads or evaluating defenses or something. No idea. But I do think that the Steelers don't view having a crappy OL with Ben a big deal. Might be why he is always there to defend them. They take such heat, but he knows they are doing the best they can, they just suck.

I heard someone on ESPN radio saying something about Ben not having the highest Wunderlic score. And he's one of the few QBs that has success in spite of a lower score. And they were making the case that that score correlates with playoff success in most cases.

Maybe Ben's Wunderlic is the reason he's not the best with pre-snap reads or understanding what the D is doing or something along those lines.

SanAntonioSteelerFan
09-14-2011, 02:05 PM
I am starting to think our OL blows somewhat by design. Most teams with a franchise QB spend a large chunk of their cap on skill players and the OL to protect their investment. We have the skill players on offense, but instead of spending a chunk of the cap on the OL we spend it on the defense.

Most of Ben's big plays are when the line breaks down and he starts running around adlibbing. We don't run a high powered offense like most teams because Ben isn't a timing oriented QB. He is a visual QB. This is why you don't see many timing patterns other than those stupid stay patterns from the bunch formation. You rarely see him throw to a spot and expect the WR to be there.

Look at how we scored the lone TD in Baltimore. Ben running around, WR hangs in there and Ben hits him. Total garbage play. Thats Ben, freaking best backyard football player on the planet but I think he would struggle in a well oiled machine type of offense. Maybe he sucks at pre-snap reads or evaluating defenses or something. No idea. But I do think that the Steelers don't view having a crappy OL with Ben a big deal. Might be why he is always there to defend them. They take such heat, but he knows they are doing the best they can, they just suck.

I heard someone on ESPN radio saying something about Ben not having the highest Wunderlic score. And he's one of the few QBs that has success in spite of a lower score. And they were making the case that that score correlates with playoff success in most cases.

Maybe Ben's Wunderlic is the reason he's not the best with pre-snap reads or understanding what the D is doing or something along those lines.


From the Department of FWIW and Redundancy Department:

From an old thread
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=18209 (http://www.planetsteelers.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=18209) : apparently Wonderlich score doesn't predict future success in the NFL at any position. Besides which, Vince Young and Dan Marino apparently had the same Wonderlich score.

Go figure! :D

SteelTorch
09-14-2011, 02:36 PM
I honestly don't know how some people continue to make excuses for this O-line. I've heard it all: a bad system, a bad OC, a bad line coach, they don't have time to "gel", Ben holds on too long, etc. The players just stink. No other way around it.

Pouncey is the only one on that line that I would even call "good" at this point. Everyone else, including Kemo, would be playing as back-ups in most other teams around the league. Since 2006, the play of this line has been average AT BEST, but poor most of the time, and it's coming back to haunt us.

Dee Dub
09-14-2011, 02:54 PM
I honestly don't know how some people continue to make excuses for this O-line. I've heard it all: a bad system, a bad OC, a bad line coach, they don't have time to "gel", Ben holds on too long, etc. The players just stink. No other way around it.

Pouncey is the only one on that line that I would even call "good" at this point. Everyone else, including Kemo, would be playing as back-ups in most other teams around the league. Since 2006, the play of this line has been average AT BEST, but poor most of the time, and it's coming back to haunt us.

Do you feel this way about Gilbert? Do you believe he doesnt have the ability to become a solid O-lineman?

feltdizz
09-14-2011, 03:01 PM
I honestly don't know how some people continue to make excuses for this O-line. I've heard it all: a bad system, a bad OC, a bad line coach, they don't have time to "gel", Ben holds on too long, etc. The players just stink. No other way around it.

Pouncey is the only one on that line that I would even call "good" at this point. Everyone else, including Kemo, would be playing as back-ups in most other teams around the league. Since 2006, the play of this line has been average AT BEST, but poor most of the time, and it's coming back to haunt us.

the OL does suck....

but it's also obvious to me that Ben doesn't mind the way the OL plays.

phillyesq
09-14-2011, 03:12 PM
I honestly don't know how some people continue to make excuses for this O-line. I've heard it all: a bad system, a bad OC, a bad line coach, they don't have time to "gel", Ben holds on too long, etc. The players just stink. No other way around it.

Pouncey is the only one on that line that I would even call "good" at this point. Everyone else, including Kemo, would be playing as back-ups in most other teams around the league. Since 2006, the play of this line has been average AT BEST, but poor most of the time, and it's coming back to haunt us.

Do you feel this way about Gilbert? Do you believe he doesnt have the ability to become a solid O-lineman?

Colon was a starting caliber RT, and was actually pretty good in 2009. Pouncey had a bad game on Sunday, but should anchor this line for another 10 years. You can do worse than Kemo, and really, you need to look no farther than right guard to prove that. He can be an average starter, despite his maddening inconsistency and mental errors.

Scott is ideally a backup swing tackle/fill-in, not a starter. He does demonstrate, at times, the ability to perform as a marginal starting tackle.

I bet most teams would love Legursky -- as a backup center.

Gilbert has potential, but is an unknown.

There are a lot of mediocre pieces that so far come together to provide a poor line. With time to gel, their play will likely rise to the level of acceptable, like it did last year.

I'd like to see better. I'd love to see a stud LT, or hell, even a competent RG. But this group will likely be enough to scrape by.

SteelTorch
09-14-2011, 03:35 PM
I honestly don't know how some people continue to make excuses for this O-line. I've heard it all: a bad system, a bad OC, a bad line coach, they don't have time to "gel", Ben holds on too long, etc. The players just stink. No other way around it.

Pouncey is the only one on that line that I would even call "good" at this point. Everyone else, including Kemo, would be playing as back-ups in most other teams around the league. Since 2006, the play of this line has been average AT BEST, but poor most of the time, and it's coming back to haunt us.

Do you feel this way about Gilbert? Do you believe he doesnt have the ability to become a solid O-lineman?
I need to see more from Gilbert to pass judgement. Do I think he has the potential? Sure, but he's just starting out. He'll have to prove himself as good for me to call him that. Same applies to all rookies.

steelerkeylargo
09-14-2011, 03:39 PM
SKL, I dont agree with you. I think because of Gilbert's feet I think he can help in the long term. He needs to get stronger for run blocking but I think in pass protection at the very worst will do as well as Colon. And he has the ability to do even better. He is a second round pick..that means he needs some time to develop. He also needs some time out the with the first unit to get the much desired cohesiveness. What can be expected of a second round O-lineman who didn't have OTA's and a reduced camp who is now being thrown to the wolves? Give the guy a chance. And show some confidence in your scouting department and coaching staff. They saw enough in his senior year to draft in the second round. I'll go with that.

You can forget the Joe Staley's of the world. The Steelers will be $25 million over the cap next season.

As far as Gilbert. I scouted his tape from last 2 seasons. He gets blown away by speed rushers. Sets too deep to compensate putting defenders on top of the QB. He is a "catch blocker" in the passing game meaning he lets the defender dominate the action. His best qualities are he is quick off the snap and does well if he can get on the 2nd level in the run game. I believe the Steelers took him because they panicked when the OL run hit the 2nd round. They could have gotten the same player in Pinkston who i believe was a 4th rounder. As far as the salary cap goes cutting Farrior, Foote, Hoke, BMac, Gay, Essucks, Batch, Battle, Allen, Smith, Moore and Mundy ought to take care of that. :Cheers

hawaiiansteel
09-14-2011, 03:46 PM
I wonder if the Steelers ever considered signing Brian Waters who was a FA after KC cut him. Waters is now starting at RG for the Pats* and looked really good against Miami in his first game.

Waters certainly would be a big improvement over anybody we trot out at RG...

steelblood
09-14-2011, 04:15 PM
I honestly don't know how some people continue to make excuses for this O-line. I've heard it all: a bad system, a bad OC, a bad line coach, they don't have time to "gel", Ben holds on too long, etc. The players just stink. No other way around it.

Pouncey is the only one on that line that I would even call "good" at this point. Everyone else, including Kemo, would be playing as back-ups in most other teams around the league. Since 2006, the play of this line has been average AT BEST, but poor most of the time, and it's coming back to haunt us.

Give Kugler some time. I believe in the guy. In the playoff games last year, that line played very well (especially given the talent level). I think he can develop some of our young talent. He is a solid coach who has made the most of what he has been given for years. The talent on the line will only get better as we draft more linemen. That will take a few years.

pfelix73
09-14-2011, 04:33 PM
I'm not convinced Kugler is that great of a coach like some on here believe. He sure didn't have them ready to play on Sunday. That was obvious. I'd give the coaching staff a great big fat F as a grade for last weekend's performance.

Like a few were saying in the media, we won't see a Ngata or Ngata-type every Sunday, so Legursky and Gilbert have some time to gel on that right side. You all do know that Gilbert is the heir apparent to our LT spot? So, they are planning for him to be here long-term....This has been reported in local media as well.

:tt1

Dee Dub
09-14-2011, 04:56 PM
SKL, I dont agree with you. I think because of Gilbert's feet I think he can help in the long term. He needs to get stronger for run blocking but I think in pass protection at the very worst will do as well as Colon. And he has the ability to do even better. He is a second round pick..that means he needs some time to develop. He also needs some time out the with the first unit to get the much desired cohesiveness. What can be expected of a second round O-lineman who didn't have OTA's and a reduced camp who is now being thrown to the wolves? Give the guy a chance. And show some confidence in your scouting department and coaching staff. They saw enough in his senior year to draft in the second round. I'll go with that.

You can forget the Joe Staley's of the world. The Steelers will be $25 million over the cap next season.

As far as Gilbert. I scouted his tape from last 2 seasons. He gets blown away by speed rushers. Sets too deep to compensate putting defenders on top of the QB. He is a "catch blocker" in the passing game meaning he lets the defender dominate the action. His best qualities are he is quick off the snap and does well if he can get on the 2nd level in the run game. I believe the Steelers took him because they panicked when the OL run hit the 2nd round. They could have gotten the same player in Pinkston who i believe was a 4th rounder. As far as the salary cap goes cutting Farrior, Foote, Hoke, BMac, Gay, Essucks, Batch, Battle, Allen, Smith, Moore and Mundy ought to take care of that. :Cheers

No offense SKL, but Im gonna go with the Steelers brass/scouting department on this one. From what I have seen (all-be-it brief), of Gilbert he has not looked anything like your scouting report.

Now if he proves to be what you sayIll say I was wrong.

steelerkeylargo
09-14-2011, 04:59 PM
[quote="Dee Dub":e2dwhmbw]SKL, I dont agree with you. I think because of Gilbert's feet I think he can help in the long term. He needs to get stronger for run blocking but I think in pass protection at the very worst will do as well as Colon. And he has the ability to do even better. He is a second round pick..that means he needs some time to develop. He also needs some time out the with the first unit to get the much desired cohesiveness. What can be expected of a second round O-lineman who didn't have OTA's and a reduced camp who is now being thrown to the wolves? Give the guy a chance. And show some confidence in your scouting department and coaching staff. They saw enough in his senior year to draft in the second round. I'll go with that.

You can forget the Joe Staley's of the world. The Steelers will be $25 million over the cap next season.

As far as Gilbert. I scouted his tape from last 2 seasons. He gets blown away by speed rushers. Sets too deep to compensate putting defenders on top of the QB. He is a "catch blocker" in the passing game meaning he lets the defender dominate the action. His best qualities are he is quick off the snap and does well if he can get on the 2nd level in the run game. I believe the Steelers took him because they panicked when the OL run hit the 2nd round. They could have gotten the same player in Pinkston who i believe was a 4th rounder. As far as the salary cap goes cutting Farrior, Foote, Hoke, BMac, Gay, Essucks, Batch, Battle, Allen, Smith, Moore and Mundy ought to take care of that. :Cheers

No offense SKL, but Im gonna go with the Steelers brass/scouting department on this one. From what I have seen (all-be-it brief), of Gilbert he has not looked anything like your scouting report.

Now if he proves to be what you sayIll say I was wrong.[/quote:e2dwhmbw]

I will be cheering for you both to prove me wrong!!! :Cheers

Chadman
09-14-2011, 05:54 PM
Just out of curiosity SKL- you didn't happen to have the same, or similar, scouting report for Max Starks as you do for Gilbert, did you?

steelerkeylargo
09-14-2011, 06:41 PM
Just out of curiosity SKL- you didn't happen to have the same, or similar, scouting report for Max Starks as you do for Gilbert, did you?

I wasn't scouting those days. But I would say they are different Animals. Starks is a Giant of a man that while slow footed possesses a strong punch and the ability to steer his opponents with his long arms. I don't see that from Gilbert.

hawaiiansteel
09-15-2011, 11:19 PM
Starkey: O-line problem? Not so much

By Joe Starkey, PITTSBURGH TRIBUNE-REVIEW
Thursday, September 15, 2011


The Steelers' offensive line is in flux again.

What else is new? Based on precedent, I'm convinced this team could win with Ronny Cedeno at left tackle.

Seriously, the Steelers almost won the Super Bowl last season with Jonathan Scott, Doug Legursky and Ramon Foster three guys nobody wanted joining Chris Kemoeatu and ancient Flozell Adams in front of their $100 million quarterback.

The Steelers actually won a Super Bowl with fading Justin Hartwig at center and undrafted first-year starter Darnell Stapleton at right guard. So who's to say they can't win with Scott still at left tackle, Legursky at right guard (he replaced Foster) and rookie Marcus Gilbert at right tackle?

Who's to say the perfect storm of recent failed draft picks (Kraig Urbik, Tony Hills) and injuries (Max Starks, Willie Colon) will ruin the season?

I'm not ready to go there.

Neither is the $100 million quarterback, who can make a line look bad by holding the ball but more often makes it look good by performing miracles when nobody blocks. Think of the first play after a holding penalty on the Super Bowl-winning drive against Arizona.

"It seems like every year we kind of go through offensive line changes, moving guys around," Ben Roethlisberger said Wednesday. "They've always done a great job of stepping up, next guy stepping in. You have to have 100 percent faith, trust and belief in the next guy. And I have that."

Gilbert is absolutely up to the task physically. His agility belies his 6-foot-6, 320-pound frame, and he didn't look out of place on the left side in preseason matchups against some pretty good pass rushers. It's the mental part of the game that is worrisome with a rookie.

Second-year center Maurkice Pouncey gave his former Florida teammate a glowing recommendation when Steelers brass asked him about Gilbert before the draft.

Not that Pouncey actually made the pick.

"I wish I made all the picks," he joked yesterday. "I would have got (twin brother) Mike here."

At first blush, the Steelers' recent success with low-pedigree lines might seem remarkable. It's really not. Everybody's winning with patchwork lines these days.

Proof: On the past five Super Bowl-winning offensive lines, there were more undrafted starters (five) than first-round picks (two). There were also more guys taken in rounds four and lower (12) than three and higher (eight).

Offensive linemen really do grow on trees.

If you're not drafting a rare stud such as Pouncey or Joe Thomas, then you're choosing from a limitless pool of large humans who can be coached into a system and Steelers line coach Sean Kugler is among the best in the business.

The way the game has gone all passing, all the time you need people to hold their blocks just long enough for the quarterback to release the ball (or, in Roethlisberger's case, to keep the ball and make space for himself).

Every Super Bowl winner since 2005 has passed more than it has run. Makes sense, considering 2005 was the year the NFL made it illegal to bump a receiver after he traveled a mere five yards beyond the line of scrimmage.

That's free money. Everybody's taking it. There were 14 300-yard passers in Week 1. Compare that to, say, 1977, when there were five 300-yard passers the entire season, and you can see where the game has gone.

So go ahead and fret about the state of the Steelers' line. The Steelers won't.

This is business as usual.

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsbu ... z1Y3wdPcUP (http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/sports/steelers/s_756875.html#ixzz1Y3wdPcUP)