PDA

View Full Version : Youth will not be served



Oviedo
08-01-2011, 08:04 AM
We never know the composition of the fimal roster until right before opening day, but it appears the front office is opting for the "go with what you know" approach.

It was going to be an uphill battle given the lack of off season OTAs, but resigning Moore and Gay pretty much means that there will be no legitimate competition for rookies to show what they can do in game situations.

Barron Batch and John Clay will lose the most with Moore coming back. Their only hope is unseating Dwyer as the #4 RB which by all accounts Dwyer is helping them do with his poor performances.

Forget Curtis Brown getting a chance to play in the nickle defense. Gay looks to be back to man that position. If it wasn't an challenge for a rookie to ever see the field on our defense it will be impossible for our young DBs and LBs Chris Carter and Mario Harvey.

This is all somewhat disconcerting. Even though the front office has done a great job, sooner or later we are going to "hit the wall" with all these 30+ veterans and we will not have back ups with significant game experience ready to step in. At least we won't have to learn new numbers.

phillyesq
08-01-2011, 08:14 AM
The Steelers typically don't start rookies. And it isn't because they are opposed to doing so. It's because they don't have to. When a rookie demonstrates that he can play, like Pouncey, he plays. When a rookie needs seasoning, he starts on the bench and eventually works his way in.

I doubt that the picks and udfas get significant snaps early in the season, but I think that is a positive. Coming off the abbreviated offseason, I'd rather rely on veterans who went to a SB last year than rookies with very little time in the offensive or defensive system.

Most consider it a luxury to ease in a current crop of rookies, not an organizational failure.

By the end of the year, depending on how they develop and depending on injuries, some of the rookies will play, as will some of the younger holdovers from last year.

flippy
08-01-2011, 08:17 AM
It's a nice luxury having a team where young guys don't have to be thrown to the wolves immediately.

Gilbert might be the only guy to get a real look given the needs/uncertainty we have on the OLine.

Heyward's gonna have to work himself into a rotation and may see very limited action. He's just not gonna leapfrog Keisel.

Brown and Allen will get to compete, but I don't see them beating out Gay really. Gay's good. People are unfairly critical of the guy. Sure he's not the greatest, but he can contribute.

The others, I just don't see them as legit starters contributors right away.

I'm more interested in seeing guys like Worldis, Sylvester, Ziggy, Sanders, Brown, Wallace, Pouncey, etc take that next step in their development.

And if you look at our defensive injury issues last year in Troy, Jimmy, and BMac, there's a lot of room for improvement if those guys get healthy.

There's a lot of positives to look forward to and the play of Curtis Brown or Barron Batch is most likely irrelevant to winning a SuperBowl this year.

chiken
08-01-2011, 08:31 AM
I think (hope) that we will see something from C. Butler and Lewis this year. And if B. Batch makes the team I think he will get A chance (just my gut feeling) with the big boys. He has some ability.

Slapstick
08-01-2011, 08:37 AM
This offseason was not typical at all...it's difficult to blame the team for resigning players who know the system and contributed to a Super Bowl appearance...

Slightly off-topic, I believe that the lockout was why LeBeau and Arians both re-upped for a year....Tomiln wanted to avoid bringing in new coaches and systems during the lockout period...

Going with veterans may be bad for the rookies, but it is in the team's best interests this year...

Oviedo
08-01-2011, 08:40 AM
This offseason was not typical at all...it's difficult to blame the team for resigning players who know the system and contributed to a Super Bowl appearance...

Slightly off-topic, I believe that the lockout was why LeBeau and Arians both re-upped for a year....Tomiln wanted to avoid bringing in new coaches and systems during the lockout period...

Going with veterans may be bad for the rookies, but it is in the team's best interests this year...

Don't disagree, but eventually got to get these young guys on the field and see or we will have one of those season where all the vets are gone or their performance slips and the young guys will have to OJT in a bad situation.

Slapstick
08-01-2011, 08:48 AM
That's true...

This year may not be the best time...

phillyesq
08-01-2011, 12:02 PM
Slightly off-topic, I believe that the lockout was why LeBeau and Arians both re-upped for a year....Tomiln wanted to avoid bringing in new coaches and systems during the lockout period...

I'd think the SB appearance had something to do with it as well.

RuthlessBurgher
08-01-2011, 12:29 PM
Rookies never play!

Maurkice Pouncey didn't make the Pro Bowl!

Manny Sanders didn't catch 28 balls for 376 yards and 2 TD's!

Antonio Brown didn't make two huge, clutch plays in the playoffs!

Stevenson Sylvester did not play in all 16 games (including both playoff games and the Super Bowl) as a special teams demon!

Jason Worilds did not play in 14 regular season games and a playoff game as well!

Oh wait...all those things did happen. Sorry...I forgot.

Oviedo
08-01-2011, 01:11 PM
Rookies never play!

Maurkice Pouncey didn't make the Pro Bowl!

Manny Sanders didn't catch 28 balls for 376 yards and 2 TD's!

Antonio Brown didn't make two huge, clutch plays in the playoffs!

Stevenson Sylvester did not play in all 16 games (including both playoff games and the Super Bowl) as a special teams demon!

Jason Worilds did not play in 14 regular season games and a playoff game as well!

Oh wait...all those things did happen. Sorry...I forgot.

We do a good job of integrating rookies on the offensive side of the ball. My concern is on the defensive side of the ball where we have our weakest unit...the secondary.

flippy
08-01-2011, 01:25 PM
You could make the case our weakest unit is the DLine. We never get pressure with 3-4 guys.

We've always got to blitz or create confusion to create pressure.

Bring the pressure and the DBs will look much better.

RuthlessBurgher
08-01-2011, 01:29 PM
You could make the case our weakest unit is the DLine. We never get pressure with 3-4 guys.

We've always got to blitz or create confusion to create pressure.

Bring the pressure and the DBs will look much better.

On what planet would Hood-Hampton-Keisel ever be considered a weak unit? You could even trot out the 2nd team of Smith-Hoke-Heyward instead, and you'd still have an unusually strong 3-4 d-line.

flippy
08-01-2011, 01:55 PM
You could make the case our weakest unit is the DLine. We never get pressure with 3-4 guys.

We've always got to blitz or create confusion to create pressure.

Bring the pressure and the DBs will look much better.

On what planet would Hood-Hampton-Keisel ever be considered a weak unit? You could even trot out the 2nd team of Smith-Hoke-Heyward instead, and you'd still have an unusually strong 3-4 d-line.

They're the best when it comes to 3-4 lines. All great players. But when there's a lot of receivers on the field and we go with a 4 man line, we don't get a lot of pressure with 3 or 4 guys like a lot of other lines do. And I'd consider Harrison/Woodley as an extension of the 4 man line.

To get pressure, we often have to send Farrior or Timmons up the middle plus Troy, Timmons, Gay, etc off the edge.

And that opens up the potential for passing plays if we can't get pressure with 6 guys.

We get a lot of sacks, but we don't get consistent pressure without blitzing and that the biggest issue for the D.

When QBs get loads of time, that's when our DBs look bad. And I think our DBs get a bad rep for the system they play in.

Oviedo
08-01-2011, 02:46 PM
You could make the case our weakest unit is the DLine. We never get pressure with 3-4 guys.

We've always got to blitz or create confusion to create pressure.

Bring the pressure and the DBs will look much better.

On what planet would Hood-Hampton-Keisel ever be considered a weak unit? You could even trot out the 2nd team of Smith-Hoke-Heyward instead, and you'd still have an unusually strong 3-4 d-line.

They're the best when it comes to 3-4 lines. All great players. But when there's a lot of receivers on the field and we go with a 4 man line, we don't get a lot of pressure with 3 or 4 guys like a lot of other lines do. And I'd consider Harrison/Woodley as an extension of the 4 man line.

To get pressure, we often have to send Farrior or Timmons up the middle plus Troy, Timmons, Gay, etc off the edge.

And that opens up the potential for passing plays if we can't get pressure with 6 guys.

We get a lot of sacks, but we don't get consistent pressure without blitzing and that the biggest issue for the D.

When QBs get loads of time, that's when our DBs look bad. And I think our DBs get a bad rep for the system they play in.

The 3-4 is designed for the LBs to create the QB pressure. You are not suppose to get sacks from the DL. The DLs primary role is controlling the LOS and making the opponents run game null and void. Any sacks you get from the DL is icing on the cake.

The amount of QB pressure that Kiesel does get is a credit to how good a player he really is. Same for what Aaron Smith use to be able to do.

feltdizz
08-01-2011, 03:00 PM
Hood gets after it too....

The O has no problem inserting rookies...

The D? Well... not so much. If GB and other teams can throw in rookies and cover our championship WR's why the heck do our CB's look lost 2 to 3 years in?

I know the D as a whole is effective but I would like to see more youngsters getting a few reps in our backfield.

I don't know who wrote it but I read on here where Ike was almost a casualty because he couldn't grasp the system. If this is true then it goes to show why we keep resigning average vets.

It was just one game but you see a guy break on the ball, drop it and never see him again...the response is "where is he now?" or "who picked him up?"

Well isn't that part of the problem? Sometimes it feels like we break our CB's down like boot camp and rebuild them into average CB's.

flippy
08-01-2011, 03:09 PM
You could make the case our weakest unit is the DLine. We never get pressure with 3-4 guys.

We've always got to blitz or create confusion to create pressure.

Bring the pressure and the DBs will look much better.

On what planet would Hood-Hampton-Keisel ever be considered a weak unit? You could even trot out the 2nd team of Smith-Hoke-Heyward instead, and you'd still have an unusually strong 3-4 d-line.

They're the best when it comes to 3-4 lines. All great players. But when there's a lot of receivers on the field and we go with a 4 man line, we don't get a lot of pressure with 3 or 4 guys like a lot of other lines do. And I'd consider Harrison/Woodley as an extension of the 4 man line.

To get pressure, we often have to send Farrior or Timmons up the middle plus Troy, Timmons, Gay, etc off the edge.

And that opens up the potential for passing plays if we can't get pressure with 6 guys.

We get a lot of sacks, but we don't get consistent pressure without blitzing and that the biggest issue for the D.

When QBs get loads of time, that's when our DBs look bad. And I think our DBs get a bad rep for the system they play in.

The 3-4 is designed for the LBs to create the QB pressure. You are not suppose to get sacks from the DL. The DLs primary role is controlling the LOS and making the opponents run game null and void. Any sacks you get from the DL is icing on the cake.

The amount of QB pressure that Kiesel does get is a credit to how good a player he really is. Same for what Aaron Smith use to be able to do.


Theres lots of situations whee we go with a 4 man line and dont generate pressure. I get the base D. Our problem is when we go to a 4 man front.

steelblood
08-01-2011, 06:26 PM
We never know the composition of the fimal roster until right before opening day, but it appears the front office is opting for the "go with what you know" approach.

It was going to be an uphill battle given the lack of off season OTAs, but resigning Moore and Gay pretty much means that there will be no legitimate competition for rookies to show what they can do in game situations.

Barron Batch and John Clay will lose the most with Moore coming back. Their only hope is unseating Dwyer as the #4 RB which by all accounts Dwyer is helping them do with his poor performances.

Forget Curtis Brown getting a chance to play in the nickle defense. Gay looks to be back to man that position. If it wasn't an challenge for a rookie to ever see the field on our defense it will be impossible for our young DBs and LBs Chris Carter and Mario Harvey.

This is all somewhat disconcerting. Even though the front office has done a great job, sooner or later we are going to "hit the wall" with all these 30+ veterans and we will not have back ups with significant game experience ready to step in. At least we won't have to learn new numbers.

Ovi,

I don't disagree. But, I do think it is possible with rotations and injuries that rookies and other young players will be given opportunities.

This defense needs to get younger but we are good for the next 3 years at

LOLB (wood), both DEs (Hood and Keisel/Heyward), SS (Troy), one ILB (Timmons), one CB (Ike)

That is 6 of the 11 starters.

The other positions are up in the air. NT, ROLB, CB, FS, ILB2. We do have some young OLBs that could work into a rotation this year. Worilds will likely get a little work at least. McFadden and Gay could both be gone next year. If a couple of our many young corners show promise and have success as dime backs or injury fill-ins, I'd be thrilled. Sylvestor is very athletic and shows good instincts. If he fills out, he could be a starting ILB.

That leaves FS and NT. I don't see any good long term replacements here. We will need to draft and sign FAs to replace these players.

Overall I'd say this defense is quite old, but there is a future plan at many positions.

Offensively, I think this team is fairly young and talented (with the exception of OT and OG).

Captain Lemming
08-01-2011, 10:14 PM
Don't disagree, but eventually got to get these young guys on the field and see or we will have one of those season where all the vets are gone or their performance slips and the young guys will have to OJT in a bad situation.

Yeah arent we gonna anoint these guys starters already. Pretty soon they have been Steelers for almost a whole WEEK already.

Captain Lemming
08-01-2011, 10:18 PM
I doubt that the picks and udfas get significant snaps early in the season, but I think that is a positive. Coming off the abbreviated offseason, I'd rather rely on veterans who went to a SB last year than rookies with very little time in the offensive or defensive system.

Most consider it a luxury to ease in a current crop of rookies, not an organizational failure.


Why do Brown fans get to see four or five their rookies start every year, but we poor Steeler fans are denied the same priviledge?

Captain Lemming
08-01-2011, 10:24 PM
Don't disagree, but eventually got to get these young guys on the field and see or we will have one of those season where all the vets are gone or their performance slips and the young guys will have to OJT in a bad situation.

So true. If we started Ziggy as a rookie he wouldn't have been the BUM he was last year when he was forced to replace A Smith. IIRC, our defense especially versus the run TANKED with Ziggy.

aggiebones
08-02-2011, 04:34 PM
Read my thread about trading all the picks away. This is what I was intimating when I wrote it.
I knew before the draft that THIS camp was going to be different and we were going to go old school, especially coming off a Super Bowl game. With short camps, rookies were gonna get screwed. The only difference is that you are unhappy about this outcome, but it was all but written in stone before the draft, which was why I mentioned trading away the last draft for the next one. Not entirely, but we should have only brought in a few rookies, gone veteran and had the extra picks for more upheavel next year or for trading up in the draft.

It is what it is. And what it was before the draft.

hawaiiansteel
08-05-2011, 02:24 AM
Steelers Youth Showing Promise While Veterans Sit

August 4th, 2011

The Steelers young guys are getting oppurtunities while veterans sit out with injuries and CBA hold ups. They are taking advantage of it. Many of these young guys look like they have the goods and are showing it to the coaches while they can. There are a few guys in particular who really are making names for themselves.

http://nicepickcowher.com/files/2011/08/4e360419147cc.preview-300.jpeg

Baron Batch- This kid has showed up ready to play. He came in as a 7th round pick just looking to make the roster and he is surely making his presence felt. Batch was known as a pass catching third down type back when coming to the Steelers and looks like he will be able to hold down that position.

Batch had a good day in backs on backers drills. He was able to hold off guys like Jason Worilds and even slowed down James Harrison who gave the kid some love after the drill was over. He held his own and got big cheers from his peers for his effort.

Batch drew more yells from his teammates and the crowd as he made some stellar cuts yesterday in practice as well. He can catch. He can run. Most importantly he can block. He has third down back written all over him. This kid is has the potential to be a good one.

http://prod.static.steelers.clubs.nfl.com/assets/images/imported/PIT/photos/clubimages/2011/07-July/DSC_7440--nfl_medium_540_360.JPG

Curtis Brown- Brown is getting a shot right now to run with the first team. Ike Taylor is still out because of the CBA. Bryant McFadden, Keenan Lewis and Crezdon Butler have all been on and off with injuries and Brown has gotten a chance to show his stuff. And WOW does he look like the real deal. This is only practice but the kid looks great. If he hits the field and plays as well as he is in practice I can understand why we didnít draft anyone sooner at the position.

This kid is a pure cover guy. This is not to claim he is a superstar but if you listen to most talent experts they always talk about Darrelle Revis and how his eyes never leave his Receivers midsection. This is where Brownís eyes always are. You can not go anywhere without your belly button. You can make as many head shakes and feet shuffles as you want but as a defender if you follow a guys midsection you can stay with him.

Brown can also tackle. He is exactly what the Steelers attempt to draft. Guys who can cover but is also willing to come up and hit in the running game. If what we are seeing now is shown on the field in preseason look for Brown to make a run at the Nickel Cornerback spot.

http://huskersgameday.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/keith-williams-huskers.jpg

Keith Williams- The sixth round pick out of Nebraska is a mean, mauling SOB. This sounds familiar. Almost identical actually to another guy. Hmmmmm. Oh yeah Carl Nicks the All Pro guard out of Nebraska who we passed on for Tony Hills. Great decision. Offensive Linemen from Nebraska always seem to have this same demeanor. Williams definitely did not fall far from that tree.

He is in place at left guard for the time being while Chris Kemoeatu is hurt and Doug Legursky is out due to the CBA. Williams looks really good in the running game right now. His pass protection skills are average right now but very well can be improved upon. It is only week 1. He has very good potential.

There are others who are making waves but these three have stood out among the others. I didnít even mention first round pick Cameron Heyward. He has people in front of him so he is taking his time learning behind them. He is in a good spot right now. This looks to be another good draft class. There could be many contributors to this yearís team even without OTAís. Just think if these guys got to practice all summer.

http://bleedblackandgold.com/blog/2011/ ... erans-sit/ (http://bleedblackandgold.com/blog/2011/08/04/steelers-youth-showing-promise-while-veterans-sit/)