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Doogie36
06-20-2011, 10:48 AM
Please help me understand this? My CHarger friend claims if Rivers played in Pittsburgh he would be equally successful as Ben? He also brings up how tough he is because he played that Championship game with a torn ACL. (THEY LOST). How many times has Ben played hurt (BROKEN NOSE). AHHHH this list was doing ok for me till I saw Rivers not only beat BEN but he crushed him in the ranking. Just had to vent. Anyone have any fire power I can send to my Charger buddy to squash his day. He wont hear it from me anymore! LOL

Oviedo
06-20-2011, 11:55 AM
That's because the list is driven by fantasy football nerds just like the "mainstream" media coverage of the NFL. It's all about stats and how good you look on paper. That is easier than doing research and gaining knowledge and the media is generally lazy.

Bottomline: Ben = Winner; Rivers = Loser

RuthlessBurgher
06-20-2011, 12:12 PM
http://www.midwestsportsfans.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/philip-rivers-chargers.jpg
http://www.midwestsportsfans.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/philip-rivers-confused.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Sk_Pgb7EDjE/SwZY2eXBPsI/AAAAAAAAAQ4/FQFpsByiQHE/s1600/Philip+Rivers+Cry+Baby.png
http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/2772/4201044537c4670308a1.jpg
http://thebiglead.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/Philip-Rivers-Is-Displeased-With-Lunchables.jpg
http://images.icanhascheezburger.com/completestore/2008/9/22/128665698559477149.jpg

Doogie36
06-20-2011, 12:28 PM
YES YES YES pics are worth a 1,000 words and this gives me weeks of entertainment!

RussBII
06-20-2011, 02:36 PM
That's because the list is driven by fantasy football nerds just like the "mainstream" media coverage of the NFL. It's all about stats and how good you look on paper. That is easier than doing research and gaining knowledge and the media is generally lazy.

Bottomline: Ben = Winner; Rivers = Loser

The list is voted on by the players, no? I doubt most of them are fantasy nerds... This is all just fall out from Ben's off the field crap.

BTW, Peter King:


2. I think for the players who voted Philip Rivers the 26th-best player in the NFL and Ben Roethlisberger the 41st, I give you these little facts:
Won-lost record: Roethlisberger 69-26, Rivers 55-25.
Playoff record: Roethlisberger 10-3, Rivers 3-4.
Super Bowl wins: Roethlisberger 2, Rivers 0.
Touchdowns: Roethlisberger 144, Rivers 136

Oviedo
06-20-2011, 03:04 PM
That's because the list is driven by fantasy football nerds just like the "mainstream" media coverage of the NFL. It's all about stats and how good you look on paper. That is easier than doing research and gaining knowledge and the media is generally lazy.

Bottomline: Ben = Winner; Rivers = Loser

The list is voted on by the players, no? I doubt most of them are fantasy nerds... This is all just fall out from Ben's off the field crap.

BTW, Peter King:


2. I think for the players who voted Philip Rivers the 26th-best player in the NFL and Ben Roethlisberger the 41st, I give you these little facts:
Won-lost record: Roethlisberger 69-26, Rivers 55-25.
Playoff record: Roethlisberger 10-3, Rivers 3-4.
Super Bowl wins: Roethlisberger 2, Rivers 0.
Touchdowns: Roethlisberger 144, Rivers 136


If the players voted that then there is really proof of hits causing brain damage.

More likely players hate Ben and Steelers kicking their butts.

steeler_fan_in_t.o.
06-20-2011, 03:58 PM
First off, let me get into why this list has no merit.

1) It is voted on by the players and who should know better than them, right? WRONG.....this is the first misconception. Everyone who watches football regularly should know more than the players. Where are you on Sunday at 1:00? Watching football. Where are they? On a playing field only seeing the players from two teams. The only time they see many of the others is when they get home and watch the game highlights.....and you can't really grade out players by watching a few snippets per week. The players who get an advantage here are those who are routinely on Sunday and Monday nights.

2) Another reason that players' ideas are skewed.....it takes three years before each team has played every other team in the league. The idea that they see the players live and in person is wrong. Us TV viewers get a much better sense of players watching them play even 4-5 times a season than a player who gets to watch up close once every three years. The only players who they really know are those in their own division who they see twice a year.

3) For this list to be truly accurate, there should be a full and even representation from each team. There was not. I don't know how they determined who would vote, but I believe that players who were at the Pro Bowl voted. That means that no Steelers or Packers participated that week. I will bet that if they reveal the voters you will find that there were very few Pittsburgh players on the list.

steeler_fan_in_t.o.
06-20-2011, 04:31 PM
My other argument regarding Rivers vs. Ben is what I kept hearing from the NFLN talking heads about why Rivers should be higher. Count the number of times you hear them use the word "numbers" as in....."look at the numbers he put up last season throwing to a bunch of no name receivers". While that might be true, this is not baseball and you can not determine who is a better player simply by numbers. Here are some reasons why.......

1) I heard someone mention that Rivers was missing his LT, but Ben was missing both tackles and had two subpar guards. Ben plays behind a line that is considered to be one of the worst pass blocking lines in the game.

2) This is one that I never understand why it isn't mentioned more often in numbers debates - Rivers plays home games in ideal conditions for putting up numbers - like Peyton and Brees as well. Perfect weather and a fast track. Ben plays on a field that is considered to be the worst track in the league and often in horrible conditions. On top of that, Ben plays three other games every year in Baltimore, Cleveland, and Cincinnati. Cold weather cities all.

3) Rivers is guaranteed to play 38% of his games in one of the two weakest divisions in the NFL. Who is his Baltimore D? All three teams together couldn't put together a D as ferocious as the one that Ben faces twice a year every year.

4) Shouldn't you factor in the fact that Ben had 4 games taken away from him? That he had significant practice time taken away from him? That he was forced to stay away from his team, missed team meetings, missed talking with coaches for a period of time? If this is the best of 2011 then you have to factor in that he would not be missing this time again. If you are using strictly 2010 then fine, but if you are using 2010 then Revis should be knocked way down the list because he missed a bit of time with injury and then was picked on for quite a bit when he returned, before he returned to form.

5) I love it when people knock Ben down for his crappy performance in SB XL. First off, he played outstanding throughout the playoff run to get them there, and as far as his performance went, how did Rivers did in his second season in the SB? Oh wait, he still hasn't played in a SB, nevermind doing it as a soph.

anger 82&95
06-20-2011, 05:34 PM
Rivers lacks poise… He often preens, postures and hurls himself around in the throes of a hissy fit. IMHO, “great” NFL quarterbacks rarely act this way during the process of professional play.

feltdizz
06-20-2011, 06:14 PM
Hmmm.... so Steeler fans know more than NFL players who play the game? I think not. The rankings and comparison between these 2 QB's is based on passing offense in 2011 isn't it?

I think Ben is a better QB overall but in 2011 I don't think it matters how many SB's or career TD's Ben has vs Rivers. Ben plays against the Ravens but Cincy and Cleveland are much easier to win at then Denver or Kansas City.

I think defenders probably think Rivers was harder to defend last year because he spreads the ball around and makes faster decisions.

I think Ben and Troy are probably 2 of the best football players in the game right now but I have mo problem when people say Brees or Ed Reed are better at those positions. It can be debated all day long but I don't think wins and rings are the barometer of a good player. Wins and Rings are the barometer of a good team.

Djfan
06-20-2011, 06:56 PM
Ben plays against the Ravens but Cincy and Cleveland are much easier to win at then Denver or Kansas City.




Denver sucked wind this year.

rpmpit
06-20-2011, 07:36 PM
The list is BS. Woodley was on Total Access a few weeks back and said that he didn't vote on the list...AND didn't know anyone who actually did get to vote. So who voted??

I usually enjoy NFLN's programming. Haven't watched any of this garbage since I heard there was only 4 Steelers on the list. Not being a homer. Just an educated NFL fan.

feltdizz
06-20-2011, 07:58 PM
Denver sucked last year but Mile High is still harder to win in then Cleveland or Cinci.

If Woodley doesn't know anyone who voted then it's a problem because the league is filled with Michigan men... I'll be honest, I don't even watch NFLN due to the lockout. I think every player should get a chance to vote.

steelblood
06-20-2011, 11:49 PM
Personally, I like Ben better (especially in big games). But, I think Rivers is a fantastic QB. I love his fire. I think he is very tough and an accurate thrower at all levels. It isn't as big of a slight as some of you make it out to be. The guy is a hell of a player.

NJ-STEELER
06-21-2011, 01:20 AM
Is this based just on last year??

I researched the season rivers had last year ( remembering a couple that i watched) and there were 4-5 games where he and his offense did squat in the 1st half only to come out and move the ball vs defenses keeping the ball in front of them

The ram and IIRC Oakland game were 2 examples of this. Not really powerhouse teams last year. I guess fantasy footballers played a big part on these rankings

Now I see how Going 9-7 with 10 games coming from if own weak division and the other from the NFC west gets rewarded

grotonsteel
06-21-2011, 02:01 AM
Hmmm.... so Steeler fans know more than NFL players who play the game? I think not. The rankings and comparison between these 2 QB's is based on passing offense in 2011 isn't it?

I think Ben is a better QB overall but in 2011 I don't think it matters how many SB's or career TD's Ben has vs Rivers. Ben plays against the Ravens but Cincy and Cleveland are much easier to win at then Denver or Kansas City.

I think defenders probably think Rivers was harder to defend last year because he spreads the ball around and makes faster decisions.

I think Ben and Troy are probably 2 of the best football players in the game right now but I have mo problem when people say Brees or Ed Reed are better at those positions. It can be debated all day long but I don't think wins and rings are the barometer of a good player. Wins and Rings are the barometer of a good team.


I think Ed Reed is the best at his position.

Drew Brees over Big Ben is a big joke. 5 years down the line he might become a better player but 2-3 good years in a Dome does not make him a better player.

Brees sucked last year. He could not even beat a 7-9 playoff team. BTW does anyone remember how Drew Brees played in San Diego??? Well good enough to get kicked out of Chargers team.

grotonsteel
06-21-2011, 02:07 AM
Is this based just on last year??

I researched the season rivers had last year ( remembering a couple that i watched) and there were 4-5 games where he and his offense did squat in the 1st half only to come out and move the ball vs defenses keeping the ball in front of them

The ram and IIRC Oakland game were 2 examples of this. Not really powerhouse teams last year. I guess fantasy footballers played a big part on these rankings

Now I see how Going 9-7 with 10 games coming from if own weak division and the other from the NFC west gets rewarded

+1

I think it might be around 8 games where Chargers offense did nothing in first half. I think Crash had posted Chargers first half score last season.

I would compare Rivers play last season to Big Ben's play against Cheatroits last season. Ben and Steelers offense was criticized during the Cheatroits game whereas Rivers get the kudos for stat padding.. :roll:

proudpittsburgher
06-21-2011, 09:56 AM
IMO, Rivers is every bit as tough as BB. But it's the attitude that seperates the two. Rivers is a punk. Ben takes every hit, doesn't get involved in the trash talk, is calmer under pressure and does what he has to do to win the game.

Oviedo
06-21-2011, 10:10 AM
IMO, Rivers is every bit as tough as BB. But it's the attitude that seperates the two. Rivers is a punk. Ben takes every hit, doesn't get involved in the trash talk, is calmer under pressure and does what he has to do to win the game.

Perfectly stated. It is how they respond to things and Ben is as cool as they come while Rivers is a prima dona who can't control his emotions.

RuthlessBurgher
06-21-2011, 10:15 AM
Denver sucked last year but Mile High is still harder to win in then Cleveland or Cinci.

My name is Ryan Clark's Spleen, and I approve this message.

feltdizz
06-21-2011, 11:10 AM
Denver sucked last year but Mile High is still harder to win in then Cleveland or Cinci.

My name is Ryan Clark's Spleen, and I approve this message.
:D

feltdizz
06-21-2011, 11:11 AM
IMO, Rivers is every bit as tough as BB. But it's the attitude that seperates the two. Rivers is a punk. Ben takes every hit, doesn't get involved in the trash talk, is calmer under pressure and does what he has to do to win the game.

attitude is everything.... Rivers can get talked out of his game.

steeler_fan_in_t.o.
06-21-2011, 11:22 PM
Hmmm.... so Steeler fans know more than NFL players who play the game?

When it comes to how good players play, yes.

Who voted on this list? Let us say for instance that Matt Ryan (and I really did pick him at random before looking at the schedule) was a voter, and he is listing his QBs.....nothing more, just the QBs.

The Falcons did not play against SD last year.
The Falcons played against the Steelers, but during Ben's suspension.
They also did not play against Indy or NE last year.
They did play against Green Bay, and Rodgers threw for 344 yds and a TD while running for 51 and another TD a superb effort for Rodgers. But the thing is that Rodgers only averaged 261 YPG last year so this was an above average performance that Ryan witnessed.
Of course Ryan saw Brees twice, and he threw for over 300 both times in domes.

In '09 he did get to see Brady up close, but Tommy only threw for 277 in a NE blowout, Eli went for 384 against the Falcons that year - I wonder if he made the Ryan QB list.

In '08 Ryan got to watch Rivers go 17-30 for 149 in a Falcons win. I wonder if Ryan can't figure out what the fuss is about.

He also saw Rodgers with another 300+ game and Brees throw for 230 in a win and 422 in a loss. What is he thinking with his Brees vote?

Of course Peyton last played against the Falcons in '07, but Ryan wasn't there yet.

So how confident are we in allowing this player to decide the QB ranking? Is he a film junkie who watches all of the other QBs in order to improve, or does he just watch the game film that his coaches give him to prep for the next game? Did they ask before giving out ballots? How well do you know each player in the league? Or did they just randomly hand out a bunch of ballots and count each of these expert rankings as knowledgeable?

So to get back to your earlier question.........I think most NFL fans who watch more than just their one team's games and tries to absorb the game as they watch it is much more reliable when it comes to ranking NFL players across the league.

The Sodfather
06-22-2011, 08:57 AM
First off, let me get into why this list has no merit.

1) It is voted on by the players and who should know better than them, right? WRONG.....this is the first misconception. Everyone who watches football regularly should know more than the players. Where are you on Sunday at 1:00? Watching football. Where are they? On a playing field only seeing the players from two teams. The only time they see many of the others is when they get home and watch the game highlights.....and you can't really grade out players by watching a few snippets per week. The players who get an advantage here are those who are routinely on Sunday and Monday nights.


This might make sense if players didn't watch film.

RuthlessBurgher
06-22-2011, 09:27 AM
[quote="steeler_fan_in_t.o.":173qojqd]First off, let me get into why this list has no merit.

1) It is voted on by the players and who should know better than them, right? WRONG.....this is the first misconception. Everyone who watches football regularly should know more than the players. Where are you on Sunday at 1:00? Watching football. Where are they? On a playing field only seeing the players from two teams. The only time they see many of the others is when they get home and watch the game highlights.....and you can't really grade out players by watching a few snippets per week. The players who get an advantage here are those who are routinely on Sunday and Monday nights.


This might make sense if players didn't watch film.[/quote:173qojqd]

They watch film of their next opponent. They don't watch film from every other team in the league.

They play teams from the other conference once every 4 years. They play teams from their conference that are not in their division once every 3 years (unless they finish in the same position as you did the previous season).

The Sodfather
06-22-2011, 10:04 AM
They watch film of their next opponent. They don't watch film from every other team in the league.


No ****

They still see more of the players than the average fan.

If you watch the Steelers every Sunday at one how much of other games are you seeing? A handful of games come on at 4 but how many do you watch intently?

The author of the post I quoted said "The only time they see many of the others is when they get home and watch the game highlights". Where in the hell do you think fans see most of these players?

You guys act like most fans watch all, or most, of these games from start to finish.

Not to mention during the off-season most of the players watch film.

If the fans did a list like this it would be even more ****ed up IMO.

feltdizz
06-22-2011, 10:08 AM
They watch film of their next opponent. They don't watch film from every other team in the league.


No bad word

They still see more of the players than the average fan.

If you watch the Steelers every Sunday at one how much of other games are you seeing? A handful of games come on at 4 but how many do you watch intently?

The author of the post I quoted said "The only time they see many of the others is when they get home and watch the game highlights". Where in the hell do you think fans see most of these players?

You guys act like most fans watch all, or most, of these games from start to finish.

Not to mention during the off-season most of the players watch film.

I think players watch every team because they want to learn from the best or how to defeat the best.

Then again.. most fans know more then the OC and DC so who knows?

hawaiiansteel
06-28-2011, 08:28 PM
Top 10 Quarterbacks in N.F.L.

By ANDY BENOIT
June 28, 2011

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2011/02/06/sports/fifth-warmup/fifth-warmup-blog480.jpg

Charlie Krupa/Associated Press

The Steelers’ Ben Roethlisberger has won two Super Bowl rings, but he doesn’t crack the top three in our quarterback list.


Friendly Disclaimer: The following list is influenced largely -– but not strictly -– by film study of all 32 teams from the 2010 season. Stats weren’t acknowledged, but players with poor numbers generally don’t make top 10 lists anyway. Vague enough for you? Criteria for top 10 lists tend to be. That’s why most of you will have no trouble finding some disagreement with what you’re about to read.

(Last year’s ranking in parentheses.)

10. Josh Freeman, Bucs (NR)

Still learning to read the field, though progressing rapidly in this realm. Has the size and athletic tools to become the N.F.C.’s version of Roethlisberger. What’s more, his leadership and football IQ are further developed than Roethlisberger’s were at this point.

9. Matt Ryan, Falcons (NR)

Has been so poised and fundamentally sound that you forget he’s only entering his fourth season.

8. Michael Vick, Eagles (NR)

Obviously, his raw playmaking skills are like nothing this sport has ever seen. You have to be a little concerned about durability and presnap awareness (both became issues down the stretch in 2010).

7. Eli Manning, Giants (8)

An unheralded trait of an elite quarterback is the ability to help wide receivers overachieve. Younger Brother has done that the past several years.

6. Philip Rivers, Chargers (6)

Was without most of his top weapons for much of last season and still didn’t skip a beat.

5. Drew Brees, Saints (3)

Consummate leader and decision-making field general. Today’s N.F.L. is built for these types of players to thrive.

4. Ben Roethlisberger, Steelers (4)

Character concerns seem to be clearing up. (Not that they were ever much of a problem on the field; the guy won two Super Bowls and was the most physically gifted quarterback in football before his suspension.)

3. Aaron Rodgers, Packers (7)

The most physically gifted quarterback in the N.F.C. has made quantum leaps in his pre- and post-snap acuity.

2. Peyton Manning, Colts (1)

We say it every year: without him, Indy is a perennial 5-11 team. No hyperbole.

1. Tom Brady, Patriots (2)

His lead in this “top quarterback” rating might be small, but from the 30,000-foot perspective, his rings and records still matter (a lot). His most recent accomplishment: leading a young offense that underwent a major midseason strategic shift to a 14-2 regular-season record.

On the cusp:

Jay Cutler, Bears

Dropped from list:

Brett Favre, Vikings (5)

Carson Palmer, Bengals (9)

Donovan McNabb, Redskins (10)

Favre retired (we think), Palmer is about to retire (we think) and McNabb wouldn’t be unwise to retire (Mike and Kyle Shanahan think.)

Youngster who could burst onto next year’s list

Sam Bradford, Rams

He was thrown to the wolves without much of a supporting cast as a rookie and survived. Now he has a chance to play in Josh McDaniels’s system, which every quarterback before him has succeeded in.

Andy Benoit is the founder of NFLTouchdown.com and covers the N.F.L. for CBSSports.com. He can be reached at andy.benoit@nfltouchdown.com.

http://fifthdown.blogs.nytimes.com/2011 ... -in-n-f-l/ (http://fifthdown.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/06/28/top-10-quarterbacks-in-n-f-l/)

papillon
06-28-2011, 10:01 PM
And, yet, for my money, I would rank Ben #2 with only Tom Brady being ahead of him. Some of the quarterbacks listed are stat gatherers, Rivers and Manning, some play in a dome, Brees and Manning, some haven't been good long enough, Ryan, Freeman and vick and some only have one Super Bowl, Rogers, Manning (both) and Brees, Ben is a multiple super Bowl winner that has proven himself to be a winner, is efficient (see his YPA), plays in foul weather and is a pretty good player with the game on the line. Tom Brady is the only quarterback on that list that can match all of that or exceed it.

He just doesn't play the position the way people want a quarterback to play and this just p1sses them all off to no end.

Pappy

Eich
06-29-2011, 08:32 AM
Rivers is a decent QB but I don't like watching him play. He's got the most awkward looking throwing motion I've ever seen. It's just painful to watch.

And right now, there's no comparison to Ben. Ben is in a different league. Rivers might start catching up at some point but right now, Ben is far more accomplished.

sentinel33
06-29-2011, 11:11 AM
That's exactly it for me. The body of work that Roethlisberger has produced FROM DAY ONE. His resume is sick after only 7 years. It dominates most players CAREER accolades.

I know I'm not alone when I say I am very excited for the next 7 years of Ben's career.

To put Rivers over Ben is simply disrespectful.

steeler_fan_in_t.o.
07-05-2011, 05:50 PM
They watch film of their next opponent. They don't watch film from every other team in the league.


No bad word

They still see more of the players than the average fan.

If you watch the Steelers every Sunday at one how much of other games are you seeing? A handful of games come on at 4 but how many do you watch intently?

The author of the post I quoted said "The only time they see many of the others is when they get home and watch the game highlights". Where in the hell do you think fans see most of these players?

You guys act like most fans watch all, or most, of these games from start to finish.

Not to mention during the off-season most of the players watch film.

If the fans did a list like this it would be even more bad word up IMO.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/blog/shutdo ... nfl-wp3002 (http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/blog/shutdown_corner/post/So-who-DID-vote-on-the-NFL-Network-s-Top-100-li?urn=nfl-wp3002)


Yeah, I was [involved]," Mason said. "I don't think I ranked all 100 players. I think I ranked maybe 20 guys, and that was it because I wasn't sitting down there and ranking 100 guys. I don't even know all 100 guys to sit down and rank them, so I ranked maybe 20 of them.

This quote is from 14 year - 2 team veteran Derrick Mason. He states that he would not be able to put together a top 100 list of players and that the best he can do is name 20. He doesn't even know all 100 guys. That pretty much kills the idea that these players are watching film of the best players in the game.

Even when they do watch film they are studying their counterparts, not every player. A receiver will study the DBs, not looking to see who are the better linemen, the opposing offense.

Any player who ranks Donovan McNabb in his top 20 of 2011 does not know as much about football as the average Steelers fan......which goes back to the origin of this.

hawaiiansteel
07-06-2011, 02:09 AM
Ray: My take on the NFL Network's Top 100 players of 2011

TUESDAY, 05 JULY 2011 13:00 WRITTEN BY RAY FITTIPALDO

Finally, it's over. It seems like the NFL Netowrk has been running down the Top 100 players since the day after the Super Bowl. Here is my take on the list.

There are too many old guys too high. Tony Gonzalez is a future Hall of Famer, but is he really still one of the top 50 players in the league? He's No. 46. There was a time when Gonzalez probably was one of the top 30 players in the league, but those days are long gone. I'm not even sure if he's one of the Top 100 players now. The same can be said for Antonio Gates. He's all the way up at No. 22. Once upon a time, yes, Gates was one of the premier playmakers in the league. But he's been too injury-prone in recent years and his production has slipped from his best years. And how about Ray Lewis? He's still a very good player, but well past his prime. No way he's the No. 4 player in the NFL. I guess this type of thing is bound to happen when the players vote. It becomes a popularity contest.

*How else to explain Michael Vick at No. 20 and Ben Roethlisberger at No. 41?

*Maybe it's because he has played in the NFC his entire career and I don't see him as much, but Julius Peppers at No. 10 seems way too high. Especially when James Harrison is at No. 21. Again, perhaps I have a greater appreciation for Harrison because I get to see him play every week, but I'm not sure if Peppers impacts games more than Harrison.

*Donovan McNabb at No. 100. Isn't that the same guy who was replaced by Rex Grossman last season?

*For someone who hasn't won a Super Bowl since 2005 and hasn't played particularly well in big games of late, I still have no problem with Tom Brady being No. 1.

*Players I would have higher on my list: Terrell Suggs (No. 40), James Harrison (No. 21), Clay Matthews (No. 19), Larry Fitzgerald (No. 14), Aaron Rodgers (No. 11).

*Players I would have lower on my list: Ray Lewis (No. 4), Michael Vick (No. 20), Antonio Gates (No. 22), Jake Long (No. 28), Jon Vilma (No. 37), Tony Gonzalez (No. 46).

http://plus.sites.post-gazette.com/inde ... rs-of-2011 (http://plus.sites.post-gazette.com/index.php/pro-sports/steelers/110593-ray-my-take-on-the-nfl-networks-top-100-players-of-2011)

papillon
07-06-2011, 09:22 AM
Devin Hester is way too high. He touches the ball 5 or 6 times a game and, while he may be the best return man to hqve ever played in the NFL, you can't put a part time player (and average receiver) ahead of guys that play every down on offense or defense.

He's ahead of Ben Roethlisberger for crying out loud. Okay, it's this simple, you're on the clock of a newly formed expansion team and Hester and Roethlisberger (with their body of work in the NFL, not rookies) are available, take a player. That's what I thought, hell, I'd take any quarterback on that list ahead Hester and probably any full time defender or offensive skill position and most of the linemen.

He can impact a game, but not often enough to have him as the 32nd rated player.

Pappy

drprwnap
07-07-2011, 12:23 PM
My other argument regarding Rivers vs. Ben is what I kept hearing from the NFLN talking heads about why Rivers should be higher. Count the number of times you hear them use the word "numbers" as in....."look at the numbers he put up last season throwing to a bunch of no name receivers". While that might be true, this is not baseball and you can not determine who is a better player simply by numbers. Here are some reasons why.......

1) I heard someone mention that Rivers was missing his LT, but Ben was missing both tackles and had two subpar guards. Ben plays behind a line that is considered to be one of the worst pass blocking lines in the game.

2) This is one that I never understand why it isn't mentioned more often in numbers debates - Rivers plays home games in ideal conditions for putting up numbers - like Peyton and Brees as well. Perfect weather and a fast track. Ben plays on a field that is considered to be the worst track in the league and often in horrible conditions. On top of that, Ben plays three other games every year in Baltimore, Cleveland, and Cincinnati. Cold weather cities all.

3) Rivers is guaranteed to play 38% of his games in one of the two weakest divisions in the NFL. Who is his Baltimore D? All three teams together couldn't put together a D as ferocious as the one that Ben faces twice a year every year.

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4) Shouldn't you factor in the fact that Ben had 4 games taken away from him? That he had significant practice time taken away from him? That he was forced to stay away from his team, missed team meetings, missed talking with coaches for a period of time? If this is the best of 2011 then you have to factor in that he would not be missing this time again. If you are using strictly 2010 then fine, but if you are using 2010 then Revis should be knocked way down the list because he missed a bit of time with injury and then was picked on for quite a bit when he returned, before he returned to form.

5) I love it when people knock Ben down for his crappy performance in SB XL. First off, he played outstanding throughout the playoff run to get them there, and as far as his performance went, how did Rivers did in his second season in the SB? Oh wait, he still hasn't played in a SB, nevermind doing it as a soph.

hawaiiansteel
07-09-2011, 11:08 PM
Is Philip Rivers Canton-bound?

July, 8, 2011
By Bill Williamson

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2011/0706/nfl_g_rivers_b1_576.jpg

Without a Super Bowl ring, will Hall of Fame voters look past Philip Rivers?


There are six active starting NFL quarterbacks who have won a Super Bowl.

Philip Rivers is not one of them.

That fact hangs over Rivers’ head and will be the biggest question mark about him until he wins one. There’s little doubt that the San Diego Chargers’ prolific, big armed, big-hearted leader is the best active quarterback alive without a Super Bowl ring.

If Rivers, 29, ends his career without hardware, will it prevent him from being enshrined into the Pro Football Hall of Fame? After his first five seasons as an NFL starting quarterback, Rivers (the No. 4 overall pick in the 2004 draft) has compiled statistics that suggest he is on his way to making the Canton, Ohio, museum.

And, thus far, he compares with non-Super Bowl-winning modern era quarterbacks such as Jim Kelly, Warren Moon, Dan Marino and fellow Chargers’ quarterback Dan Fouts.

“I think he’s on his way,” Gary Horton of Scouts Inc, said of Rivers’ chances of becoming bronzed. “He’s got the look of a Hall of Fame player. He belongs with those names that have made it recently … It would really help his cause if he won a championship, but he’s on pace in my mind.”

Quarterbacks are judged on championships, and Rivers has pressure because several quarterbacks he is judged directly against have won Super Bowls recently.

New Orleans’ Drew Brees won the title after the 2009 season. Brees left San Diego after the Chargers decided to start Rivers in 2006. The Giants’ Eli Manning won the title in 2008. Manning and Rivers were the centerpieces of a 2004 draft-day trade. Pittsburgh‘s Ben Roethlisberger has won two Super Bowls. He was picked seven slots after Rivers in 2004. Green Bay's Aaron Rodgers won the Super Bowl earlier this year. He was drafted the year after Rivers.

The two other active quarterbacks to have won the Super Bowl are New England’s Tom Brady (three rings) and the Colts’ Peyton Manning (one).

If Rivers doesn’t win a Super Bowl in his career, it could be held against him in the Hall of Fame voting room, especially if a few more quarterbacks win titles before he retires. The numbers could be stacked against him.

Brady and Peyton Manning are slam-dunk Hall of Famers. I’d think Roethlisberger, Brees and Rodgers are in good shape to make it unless they all totally fall apart. Recent retiree Brett Favre will make it, and fellow recent retiree Kurt Warner has a great chance to be enshrined. The late Steve McNair could also get some consideration. Thus, a lot of quarterbacks who played during Rivers' career could be heading into the Hall of Fame in the next 5 to 15 years.

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2010/1104/nfl_u_riversp_200.jpg

During his career Philip Rivers has passed for 19,661 yards, 136 touchdowns and has a passer rating of 97.2.

Seven quarterbacks have been enshrined in the Hall of Fame in the past 15 years. But this is a golden age of quarterbacking, so a large number will get in if they are deemed worthy by the voting committee. Winning that elusive ring is always recommended. A title could be the difference for Rivers between getting elected quickly and having a long wait.

Still, Rivers’ numbers show he is on pace to be considered seriously for Hall of Fame enshrinement.

In his career, Rivers (who threw a total of 30 passes in his first two NFL seasons) has thrown for 19,661 career yards. He has thrown 136 touchdowns and 56 interceptions. His career passer rating is 97.2. In 15 career seasons, Fouts threw for 43,040 yards, 254 touchdowns and 242 interceptions, and his passer rating was 80.2. Rivers is on pace for a much better career than Fouts, who never went to a Super Bowl but is enshrined in Canton.

Kelly, who lost four Super Bowls, played 11 seasons in the NFL. He threw for 35,467 yards and 237 touchdowns, and his passer rating was 84.4. Moon played 17 seasons in the NFL. He threw for 49,325 yards and 291 touchdowns, and his passer rating was 80.9. Dan Marino played 17 seasons. He threw for 61,361 yards and 420 touchdowns, and his passer rating was 86.4

If Rivers continues to play at a high level, he could be in the neighborhood of some of these Hall of Fame quarterbacks who did not win a Super Bowl.

Of the active Super Bowl winning quarterbacks, only Rodgers has a better career passer rating than Rivers. Peyton Manning, Brady and Brees have more touchdown passes, and Peyton Manning and Brees have more passing yardage than Rivers since 2006.

“He stacks up with a lot the current guys and the recent Hall of Famers,” Matt Williamson of Scouts Inc. said. “I think he is very much in the same class as Kelly or Moon for sure -- and maybe even Marino. Longevity will be key, but his lifetime numbers should be off the charts.”

If Rivers (who had a famously speedy recovery from a torn ACL in the 2007 playoffs) can stay healthy, he should make a serious Canton push, ring or no ring.

“The guy has everything,” Horton said. “He’s a son of a coach. He’s a gym rat. He has great skills. He showed last year he can succeed with street free agents because all of his guys were hurt … Philip Rivers is a Hall of Fame type guy, there’s no doubt about it.”

http://espn.go.com/blog/afcwest/post/_/ ... nton-bound (http://espn.go.com/blog/afcwest/post/_/id/28778/is-philip-rivers-canton-bound)

Snatch98
07-10-2011, 01:17 AM
The ESPN article actually pissed me off pretty good earlier today when I first read it. The San Diego Chargers are almost routinely one of the few media darlings each and every year. Always one of the "best teams on paper" and year after year Rivers and Co. choke. Not to mention that Rivers has to be one of the biggest damn whiners in the entire NFL, possibly all of professional sports BUT because he passes for a bunch of yards, doesn't throw a bunch of int's and finds guys in the end zone he's a hall of famer? Lol

Ben has two rings and you see articles cropping up about whether or not he's worthy. It just boggles my mind. Ben is a winner and has proven that year after year. Is the Hall of Fame really about fantasy football stats? :HeadBanger

steeler_fan_in_t.o.
07-11-2011, 01:44 AM
Philip Rivers put up a bunch of numbers while throwing LT swing passes and watching him take it 40+ yards into the end zone.

He puts up eye popping numbers in losses.

Not only does he not have a ring, he struggles to take his team to the playoffs despite playing in a division with the Raiders, Chiefs, and Broncos. That is like comparing Indiana State with UConn because Indiana St. made the NCAA tourney by winning the Missouri Valley conference.

Some seem to think that the Steelers only win with D and San Diego doesn't play D, but in 2010 the Chargers ranked #1 in D and Pittsburgh #2. The Steelers went 12-4 and advanced to the SB while San Diego missed the playoffs with a 9-7 record.

hawaiiansteel
07-16-2011, 05:27 PM
Harrison Wrong About Roethlisberger

July, 13, 2011
By Jason Vida

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2011/0206/nfl_g_roethlisberger1x_576.jpg
Mike Ehrmann/Getty Images

Ben Roethlisberger thrives under pressure

After capping a stellar season with a subpar performance in Super Bowl XLV, it’s understandable if James Harrison and the rest of the Pittsburgh Steelers are less-than-happy about the way the 2010 season ended.

But after James Harrison’s comments to Men’s Journal, it’s tough to imagine the mood will be any lighter when Steelers training camp opens this summer. Speaking of teammate Ben Roethlisberger's play in Super Bowl XLV, Harrison said:

"Hey, at least throw a pick on their side of the field instead of asking the D to bail you out again. Or hand the ball off and stop trying to act like
Peyton Manning. You ain't that and you know it, man; you just get paid like he does."

It’s doubtful that the fact that Roethlisberger’s second interception of the game came on a play that started on the Packers 49-yard line, technically “their side of the field” will make Harrison reconsider his comments.

But Big Ben’s unparalleled ability to lead the Steelers out of their own territory in the regular season should.

In 2010, Roethlisberger not only didn’t ask the Steelers defense to bail him out frequently, he was arguably the best quarterback in the league at helping his team reverse field position when backed up against its own goal line.

Roethlisberger completed 147 of 204 passes for 2,094 yards with three TDs and three interceptions in his own territory last season. His 103.7 passer rating here is even more impressive when one considers the difficulty in throwing touchdowns on plays that originate at least 51 yards from the end zone.

Of the 33 quarterbacks who threw at least 100 passes in their own territory last regular season, none had a better passer rating on those attempts than Roethlisberger, and his 10 yards per attempt on these passes was also best in the NFL.

Just three of Roethlisberger’s 204 passes from his own end were intercepted last season, an interception percentage of 1.47 percent. Only three of the 33 QBs mentioned above had a lower interception of percentage in their own territory – Josh Freeman, Tom Brady and Alex Smith.

Harrison also made the comment that Roethlisberger is trying to emulate Peyton Manning with his play in his own territory. In fact, he’s been much better than the Indianapolis Colts future Hall-of-Famer in such situations.

Twelve of Manning’s 17 interceptions last season came on the Colts side of the field, more than all but three other NFL quarterbacks. And Manning’s passer rating in his own territory was 78.4, a full 25 points behind Big Ben’s.

The stats show that Roethlisberger has been a better quarterback than Manning in his own territory. If Harrison is tired of his defense being asked to bail out the Steelers offense time and time again, he should be thankful that Ben is no Peyton. He’s only paid like him.

http://espn.go.com/blog/statsinfo/post/ ... 6/harrison (http://espn.go.com/blog/statsinfo/post/_/id/22526/harrison)’s-wrong-about-roethlisberger