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Dee Dub
03-11-2011, 07:14 PM
Put all of your Steeler Homerism aside for a moment and ask yourself who would you rather have…..Maurkice Pouncey or Hiloti Ngata?

I would think that as much as we love Maurkice the wise pick would be Hiloti Ngata. He is not just a good player but a game changer. A total defensive disrupter. He should be, even in the biggest of Steeler fans minds, rated above Maurkice Pouncey.

So why do I bring this up? Well I think in this year’s draft there may very well be two similar players.

Mike Pouncey and Phil Taylor. Now before you go all ballistic on me let’s take a hard look at Phil Taylor and Hiloti Ngata at each ones combine.

Hiloti Ngata
Height: 6 ‘4
Weight: 338
Bench Press: 37 reps
Vertical jump: 31 1/2
Broad jump: 9’02
40 yard dash: 5.13
20 yard split: 2.96
10 yard split: 1.73
20 yard shuttle: 4.69
3 cone drill: 7.97

Phil Taylor
Height: 6 ’03 1/2
Weight: 334
Bench Press: 31 reps
Vertical jump: 29 1/2
Broad jump: 8’04
40 yard dash: 5.09
20 yard split: 2.87
10 yard split: 1.77
20 yard shuttle: 4.77
3 cone drill: 7.75

And if you watch Phil Taylor from his game tapes/film you will see some similarities in his game and that of Hiloti Ngata. A very disruptive force inside. A true two-gapper who requires more than one body on him.

So I ask you again…who would you really rather have……a Maurkice Pouncey type or a Hiloti Ngata type?

NJ-STEELER
03-11-2011, 07:32 PM
with the current state of our OL and DL

i'd rather have pouncey...no question about it

Blockhead
03-11-2011, 07:40 PM
Defensive gamechangers are harder to find than OL blockers.

I go defense everytime. Only exception is for a rare skilled player capable of playing LT.

Discipline of Steel
03-11-2011, 07:44 PM
Frame the question that way and I say Pouncey. Otherwise we are looking at some combo of Legursky, Foster, and Essux at RG. Phil Taylor would sit behind Snack and Hoke for a year or two. Aside from that, there is the twynergism effect of having both Pounceys next to each other.

If it was Maurkice or Ngata, I would still say Pouncey at the beginning of his career that Ngata at his zenith. On top of that, our centers havent been too good lately whereas the DL has been exceptional.

Sugar
03-11-2011, 10:52 PM
Take the DL! I'm not as concerned about our OL as many on here. Sure, it's not the way it was with Hartings, Faneca and Smith. But, we have better weapons on the O than we did back then too. Even with all the injuries to the OL, we still played well enough to see the SB.

I'd rather have about any position on D (other than Outside Linebacker) than another O-lineman early in the draft.

grotonsteel
03-11-2011, 10:59 PM
If someone can guarentee that Phil Taylor = Haloti Ngata i am willing to give entire draft picks to draft him ala Ricky Williams.

NJ-STEELER
03-11-2011, 11:49 PM
If someone can guarentee that Phil Taylor = Haloti Ngata i am willing to give entire draft picks to draft him ala Ricky Williams.

which begs the question if he is as close to him, why is he being considered at the bottom of round 1 and not in the top 10

Captain Lemming
03-12-2011, 03:42 AM
Put all of your Steeler Homerism aside for a moment and ask yourself who would you rather have…..Maurkice Pouncey or Hiloti Ngata?

I would think that as much as we love Maurkice the wise pick would be Hiloti Ngata. He is not just a good player but a game changer. A total defensive disrupter. He should be, even in the biggest of Steeler fans minds, rated above Maurkice Pouncey.

So why do I bring this up? Well I think in this year’s draft there may very well be two similar players.

Mike Pouncey and Phil Taylor. Now before you go all ballistic on me let’s take a hard look at Phil Taylor and Hiloti Ngata at each ones combine.

Hiloti Ngata
Height: 6 ‘4
Weight: 338
Bench Press: 37 reps
Vertical jump: 31 1/2
Broad jump: 9’02
40 yard dash: 5.13
20 yard split: 2.96
10 yard split: 1.73
20 yard shuttle: 4.69
3 cone drill: 7.97

Phil Taylor
Height: 6 ’03 1/2
Weight: 334
Bench Press: 31 reps
Vertical jump: 29 1/2
Broad jump: 8’04
40 yard dash: 5.09
20 yard split: 2.87
10 yard split: 1.77
20 yard shuttle: 4.77
3 cone drill: 7.75

And if you watch Phil Taylor from his game tapes/film you will see some similarities in his game and that of Hiloti Ngata. A very disruptive force inside. A true two-gapper who requires more than one body on him.

So I ask you again…who would you really rather have……a Maurkice Pouncey type or a Hiloti Ngata type?

If you look at "combine" numbers you have the next Ngata in every draft. I could just as easily compare Taylor to center AQ Shipley when it comes to combine "feats". That is a truly "elite" athlete.

Talk about what he did on the field fine (tapes as you say)

I am not saying he isnt the real deal, but his combine numbers prove nothing.

steelblood
03-12-2011, 08:42 AM
I would argue that the only player like Ngata in this draft is Marcel Darius. Not quite as big, but very strong and explosive. Baylor is a potential top NT. But, I don't believe he is going to be nearly as good as Ngata.

Northern_Blitz
03-12-2011, 10:29 AM
If I had to choose, I'd take Ngata because I think a great 3-4 DT is harder to find than a great C.

My counter arguement would be that I think that the drop off in our run D was much less when Hoke had to play for Hampton than the dropoff in O when we were searching for a C after Hartings.

I trust the Steeler's scouting department when it comes to evaluating players and I think what they did on the field is 10x more important than how them measure at the combine.

JUST-PLAIN-NASTY
03-12-2011, 10:33 AM
I think your are asking would you take Mike Pouncey or Phil Taylor if they are both there. First, I think Taylor will also be off the board. But I will play along. Taylor & Pouncey both sitting at #31...What a good problem to have. Wow! Good scenario. And you all know how big of a Pouncey fan I am. And RG is a big need. Taylor would sit and Pouncey would start. However, I have Taylor graded much higher. Looking at the draft and how the position drop off is laid out...I couldn't pass on Taylor. Have to stay true to the board when a player of his caliber falls because I think it would take our 1st & 2nd to trade up for Taylor. Pouncey may be more in reach with giving up our 1st & 3rd. I think the only one of the two that have a chance to fall to the Steelers would be Pouncey.

birtikidis
03-12-2011, 11:01 AM
after witnessing great center play for the better part of 25 years and then to witness center play that was typical of a high school kid with downs syndrome the past few.. I'd say center. protect your franchise qb, give him time to make reads, and let him be the game changer. football is the ultimate team game. narrowing it down to one player vs another is not possible.

flippy
03-12-2011, 12:07 PM
I'd take a defensive player over offensive player any time talent is equal.

I'd take Ngata over almost any other player in the league right now.

The formula for championships is elite QB + elite D.

And Ben doesn't even need a line.

chiken
03-12-2011, 02:50 PM
In this is a Qb's league.. I protect my Qb first.

Dee Dub
03-12-2011, 03:12 PM
Here is some Youtube of Phil Taylor versus Oklahoma. Yes there are some plays here where it appears that Taylor is beat or doesnt quite give his best but there are also plenty of plays where he is flat out dominate. Now waht would this type of player look like with the likes of Casey Hampton on one side and eitther James Harrison or LaMArr Woodley on the other? With Troy Polomalu, Lawrence Timmons, amd James Farrior behind him?

Even the likes of Aaron Smith, Casey Hampton, and even a Hiloti Ngata is beaten and or nullified several times throughout a game but I believe If Phil Taylor was at DE (not NT), for the Steelers along a line with Casey Hampton and Ziggy Hood, with the rest of the that Steelers cast of stars on defense, we are looking at the likes of a Steel Curtain that is built with dominance upfront.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezk5xKe_vHg

And for those who are saying if he is that great why would he be there at the end of round one?..well he didnt play at Oregon like Ngata, he played at Baylor. Many people including NFL scouts didnt even know that much about Taylor until recently. Scouts Inc currently has him rated as the 30th overall player in this years draft.

I really believe Phil Taylor will be in reach for the Steelers. Maybe they have to trade up a tad but not before pick 25. And it is my opinion that he is going dominate at the next level especially if he goes to a defense like the Steelers.

Dee Dub
03-12-2011, 03:14 PM
In this is a Qb's league.. I protect my Qb first.


How has that worked since the Steelers drafted Ben Roethlisberger? He has been among the leaders over the years in being sacked yet he has 2 Super Bowl rings and 3 AFC titles.

hawaiiansteel
03-12-2011, 04:45 PM
if this were a draft of all NFL OL and DL, I would most likely choose Haloti Ngata first over all of them...the dude is an absolute beast.

birtikidis
03-12-2011, 05:16 PM
In this is a Qb's league.. I protect my Qb first.


How has that worked since the Steelers drafted Ben Roethlisberger? He has been among the leaders over the years in being sacked yet he has 2 Super Bowl rings and 3 AFC titles.
So let's BREAK him. Great Idea.

flippy
03-12-2011, 07:16 PM
if this were a draft of all NFL OL and DL, I would most likely choose Haloti Ngata first over all of them...the dude is an absolute beast.

Definitely him or Suh.

RuthlessBurgher
03-12-2011, 08:00 PM
Maurkice is awesome. Rookie Pro Bowler. Our best o-lineman by far. Great leader.

But Ngata is otherworldly. His combination of power and athleticism is not human.

Having said that, Phil Taylor is talented...best NT in the draft...but he's not a Ngata.

Guys like that don't come around every year. And if they did, they'd be gone near the top of the draft, not at the end of the first round.

Mike Pouncey is also talented. And we have a good idea what type of character and work ethic he has after having his twin brother on our team for the last year.

The difference is that Joe Paterno kicked one of these guys off his team. I'll take the other guy.

Captain Lemming
03-14-2011, 07:57 PM
Having said that, Phil Taylor is talented...best NT in the draft...but he's not a Ngata.

Mike Pouncey is also talented. And we have a good idea what type of character and work ethic he has after having his twin brother on our team for the last year.

Exactly. Mike and Markice are identical twins. Mike WILL upgrade our oline, without question.

Taylor?

One expert opinion:

NFL comparison: Marcus Stroud, Patriots

Strengths: Is a massive player with the ideal build of a 3-4 nose tackle. Changes directions quickly to beat one-on-one pass blocks. Can drive offensive linemen into the quarterback to force the early pass or get a sack. Has the rare size and strength to hold his ground vs. double-team run blocks. Displays the athleticism to come down the line and make tackles on inside runs.

Weaknesses: Is raw. Has more potential than production. Does not consistently rush the quarterback aggressively. Fails to consistently maintain good leverage throughout the play. Has conditioning issues; tends to wear down in games and does not play with good effort on every snap.

Bottom line: Taylor's value will increase at the next level because of the high number of NFL teams playing 3-4 schemes. He began college at Penn State and was en route to becoming a big part of the team's defense but was dismissed from the team in '08 because of off-field issues. Last offseason, he finally became committed to eating right and working hard in the weight room, which helped him to have a good 2010 season. At the Senior Bowl, he looked bigger and stronger than any of the other linemen but still struggled to consistently be a dominant player because of inconsistent technique and aggressiveness. There is little doubt Taylor has the size, strength and athleticism to be a good nose tackle and likely will be drafted higher than we have him rated. However, spending a first- or second-round pick on a player with off-field issues is always a risk.



Read more: http://aol.sportingnews.com/nfl/story/2 ... z1GcUwEGWd (http://aol.sportingnews.com/nfl/story/2011-03-14/scouting-report-baylor-dt-phil-taylor#ixzz1GcUwEGWd)


Does the description of his PLAY sound remotely like Ngatas?

Ngata became one of the best players in college football. Ngata totaled 107 tackles, 17.5 tackles for a loss, and 6.5 sacks total in the 2004 and 2005 seasons and was a consensus All-American pick in 2005, Oregon's first in 43 years. Ngata also earned praise as a dangerous special teams player, blocking 7 kicks during his 3 year career at Oregon.

Actually, their college career stats are nearly identical. Ngatas are only slightly better.

Except that Ngata did in TWO YEARS, What Talor did in THREE YEARS as a starter. Had Ngata actually played his senior year, like Taylor did his Halotis numbers would DWARF Taylors.

I too take Ngata over Markice. But the premise is flawed. Taylor is no Ngata. On the other hand, Mike is as close to Markice as ANY TWO PAYERS HAVE EVER BEEN. Mike WILL succeed.

Given the choice between "cant miss Mike" and may or may not reach his potential Taylor, I take Mike easy.

phillyesq
03-14-2011, 09:28 PM
I'd take Ngata over Pouncey in a heartbeat, no question.

But Taylor just simply isn't going to happen. The Steelers traded away a very talented former first rounder for a fifth round pick because he was a turd. They aren't going to draft another turd. They'll take a solid citizen and a solid player with 31.

NJ-STEELER
03-14-2011, 09:55 PM
count me as the only one who still takes pounce over ngata even though the original scenario was flawed.

i realize Ngata is awesome. but, how much improvement is he over zig/smith/casey/keisel /hoke etc. does anyone have a better front 7 D then us??
pouncey over whoever(legursky) is a bigger advantage then Ngata over what we already have.


if we had a 4-3 defense and not have him take up blockers as his #1 assignment, maybe then i'd change my opinion

birtikidis
03-14-2011, 11:10 PM
compare a rook to a pro... how about you compare the vet to the guy the rook projects to being.. say Dermonti Dawson.. that would be a better comparison.

papillon
03-15-2011, 06:52 AM
compare a rook to a pro... how about you compare the vet to the guy the rook projects to being.. say Dermonti Dawson.. that would be a better comparison.

There it is. :Agree with Birt. Now, who would you rather take? Dawson or Ngata? Or, take a look at Pouncey at in 6 years and compare him with Ngata, by then, I think we'll all happily take Pouncey over Ngata (barring career ending injury).

The fact that there's even any debate tells you how good and what affect Pouncey had on the Steelers' offensive line.

Pappy

BackwoodsSteeler
03-15-2011, 06:55 PM
I take Pouncey without and moments hesitation. When you look at what he'll bring to the team, barring injury, for the next 10-12 years, it's really a no-brainer to me. A franchise center is almost as good as a franchise QB. Look at Webby and Dirt and how they anchored that line for years. It all starts with the center. You can hide a weak guard or a weak tackle, but the center is vital.

Just my opinion though.