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Scalaid6
03-08-2011, 11:05 AM
I reviewed the "Scary how good Ben could be thread" and I agree with the OP

IF Ben would dedicate himself to his craft he would be unstoppable. But he wont.

Ben is uncoachable ("I only know how to play one way coach") and that is why he hasnt evolved as a quarterback.

Dont get me wrong, Ben has all the physical tools that he needs, he is just lacking the mental tools to be considered "elite".

Would Ben go to 3 Super Bowls on any other team but the Steelers? I dont think so. I dont think Ben leads the PATS to 3 Super Bowls, he just is not efficeint enough or consistent enough.

I respect what Crash has done and said but for those of you that know me from other Steeler sites, you will soon see that Crash is NO MATCH for me in terms of evaluating a quarterback.

I could be wrong. Time will tell.

grotonsteel
03-08-2011, 11:22 AM
Ben is uncoachable ("I only know how to play one way coach") and that is why he hasnt evolved as a quarterback.

Dont get me wrong, Ben has all the physical tools that he needs, he is just lacking the mental tools to be considered "elite".




Are you stating this as a fact or opinion??? If it is a fact prove that "Ben is uncoachable"

sentinel33
03-08-2011, 11:29 AM
you cant measure a players will to win. that is what sets him apart from all others. sure, he still has some deficiencies, but i'll take him till the cows come home. you can throw technical jargon and consistency issues around all you want. dudes a winner. been doin it all his life on all kinds of different teams from high school through college and into the pros. cant believe people whine about him. dude doesnt win a superbowl and hes no longer an great QB. they don't say that about Manning or Brady. They both have lost a Superbowl. Happens to the BEST of them. Shouldnt be said about Ben. Very unfair. especially when it comes from "Steelers fans". Sheesh!

I hope people understand that these years are glory years for us. just like the 70's. Live it up people and quit 8itchin!

Scalaid6
03-08-2011, 11:31 AM
Yes it is. Why do you think he had a stormy relationship with Cowher?

Why do you think he hated Whisenhunt?

Ben had success early, this was the biggest hit to his development. He felt he didnt need to study as he told Cowher "But were winning coach"

He was the 1st to leave and the last to show up (Ask Joey Porter)

Cowher told him not to ride the new bike without a helmet. Did Ben listen? Even after the accident he was seen riding the bike WITHOUT A HELMET (In fact gave the camera a middle finger)

This season Tomlin tells him to take less hits or he is taking him out, what was his answer? "I only know how to play one way coach"

Its OBVIOUS that Ben is not coachable. No opinion

Scalaid6
03-08-2011, 11:34 AM
you cant measure a players will to win. that is what sets him apart from all others. sure, he still has some deficiencies, but i'll take him till the cows come home. you can throw technical jargon and consistency issues around all you want. dudes a winner. been doin it all his life on all kinds of different teams from high school through college and into the pros. cant believe people whine about him. dude doesnt win a superbowl and hes no longer an great QB. they don't say that about Manning or Brady. They both have lost a Superbowl. Happens to the BEST of them. Shouldnt be said about Ben. Very unfair. especially when it comes from "Steelers fans". Sheesh!

I hope people understand that these years are glory years for us. just like the 70's. Live it up people and quit 8itchin!

Ben is not a great qb, rather he is a GOOD one. I have had my opinions on Ben prior to the SB loss (ask anyone)

So let me get this right, Steeler fans can criticize Arians, Tomlin, Ike, Mendenhall, Reed, Colon,Kemo etc and still be "Steeler fans" but when you criticize Ben you are NO LONGER a Steeler fan? Why is that?

Ben is a WINNER because he plays on the Steelers. If Ben was on the Lions he would be as Steve Young was on the Buccaneers- A loser

Notleadpoisoned
03-08-2011, 11:37 AM
Dont get me wrong, Ben has all the physical tools that he needs, he is just lacking the mental tools to be considered "elite".
Define "elite" for the audience please.

proudpittsburgher
03-08-2011, 11:44 AM
Ben is a WINNER because he plays on the Steelers. If Ben was on the Lions he would be as Steve Young was on the Buccaneers- A loser

Ahhh yes, and if Peyton Manning was on the Lions . . .he would be?????? Hell, he chokes in the biggest games with the Colts offense.

Son, it's one thing to have opinions, it's another to think every one of your opinions is fact. It doesn't make you smart, just an arrogant little prick.

ikestops85
03-08-2011, 11:48 AM
I reviewed the "Scary how good Ben could be thread" and I agree with the OP

IF Ben would dedicate himself to his craft he would be unstoppable. But he wont.

Ben is uncoachable ("I only know how to play one way coach") and that is why he hasnt evolved as a quarterback.

Dont get me wrong, Ben has all the physical tools that he needs, he is just lacking the mental tools to be considered "elite".

Would Ben go to 3 Super Bowls on any other team but the Steelers? I dont think so. I dont think Ben leads the PATS to 3 Super Bowls, he just is not efficeint enough or consistent enough.

I respect what Crash has done and said but for those of you that know me from other Steeler sites, you will soon see that Crash is NO MATCH for me in terms of evaluating a quarterback.

I could be wrong. Time will tell.

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQS5stghwqQIPG3I2T0QWqcWc8uOeE1K R4mAPTUf7gvXbCVDwgYHQ

Nice Try :roll:

grotonsteel
03-08-2011, 11:56 AM
Yes it is. Why do you think he had a stormy relationship with Cowher?

Why do you think he hated Whisenhunt?

Ben had success early, this was the biggest hit to his development. He felt he didnt need to study as he told Cowher "But were winning coach"

He was the 1st to leave and the last to show up (Ask Joey Porter)

Cowher told him not to ride the new bike without a helmet. Did Ben listen? Even after the accident he was seen riding the bike WITHOUT A HELMET (In fact gave the camera a middle finger)

This season Tomlin tells him to take less hits or he is taking him out, what was his answer? "I only know how to play one way coach"

Its OBVIOUS that Ben is not coachable. No opinion

:lol:

Since you are stating a fact prove it. How does your gibberish prove he is "uncoachable" ??

Tell me what is "uncoachable" according to you???

Jamarcus Russell is "uncoachable" not Ben.

Blockhead
03-08-2011, 11:57 AM
If Ben continues to play the QB position like he has the last 7 years, he won't be a top 10 QB very soon, won't be a top 15 QB(Young players like Freeman, Bradford and Ryan are closing fast) shortly after and all this may not matter as his stupidity is bound to result in career ending injuries or concussions. Unless he learns to play smarter, it's just a matter of time.

grotonsteel
03-08-2011, 12:00 PM
If Ben continues to play the QB position like he has the last 7 years, he won't be a top 10 QB very soon, won't be a top 15 QB(Young players like Freeman, Bradford and Ryan are closing fast) shortly after and all this may not matter as his stupidity is bound to result in career ending injuries or concussions. Unless he learns to play smarter, it's just a matter of time.

You lost me at Bradford and Ryan. Bradford is good not great. He might he may not. Throwing at 6.0 YPA is not going to do much.

Freeman could turn out to be a real steal though for Tampa but again Freeman is very similar to Ben. Why would you think Freeman is better than Ben when they play similar style??

The Sodfather
03-08-2011, 12:03 PM
I respect what Crash has done and said but for those of you that know me from other Steeler sites, you will soon see that Crash is NO MATCH for me in terms of evaluating a quarterback.


Impressive indeed

Blockhead
03-08-2011, 12:12 PM
If Ben continues to play the QB position like he has the last 7 years, he won't be a top 10 QB very soon, won't be a top 15 QB(Young players like Freeman, Bradford and Ryan are closing fast) shortly after and all this may not matter as his stupidity is bound to result in career ending injuries or concussions. Unless he learns to play smarter, it's just a matter of time.

You lost me at Bradford and Ryan. Bradford is good not great. He might he may not. Throwing at 6.0 YPA is not going to do much.

Freeman could turn out to be a real steal though for Tampa but again Freeman is very similar to Ben. Why would you think Freeman is better than Ben when they play similar style??
Bradford and Ryan are both getting better. Freeman is big like Ben but plays smarter than Ben. None of them are blessed with the team Ben has around him. When we needed Ben to step up and carry the team this year in the SB, he needlessly pumpfaked in stead of throwing, causing a pick 6, starred down receivers all night, which caused another interception and misfired on multiple throws. The only thing he showed in the SB was that he is not an elite QB. Rodgers is clearly better at playing the QB position. When the team starts to go away, talent wise, and if the defense can no longer carry the team, we will see what Ben is truly capable of. After 7 years of watching the same story, I doubt it is anything different. He'll continue to be inconsistent because he is not a student of the game. That was all confirmed this year by mulitple teammates who said he was routinely the last in, first out of the building.

He does have all the physicall ability to be great but does seem to lack the mental dedication to achieve it. His legacy could be "one of the greatest" but as of now it is "a guy who choked in two Super Bowls but played for a great team."

steelblood
03-08-2011, 12:12 PM
Ben has his faults. But, so does almost any other QB.

Brady is not elusive and sometimes doesn't play well when teams create consistent pressure up the middle (see Jets playoff game). Manning and Marino likewise have/had trouble with pressure. Ben, Farve, and Elway sometimes go gunslinger to the detriment of their teams.

Ben's work ethic was questionable. He was arrogant and self-important. There really is no denying that as he has admitted as much. But, all indications are that he has tried to change his ways. He's no longer the first one out of the building. He worked with a QB coach during his suspension. He's built a film room in his house. Could he still be more dedicated? I don't know. Maybe. But, I have no idea how you know unless you work for the Steelers.

Oviedo
03-08-2011, 12:12 PM
Dont get me wrong, Ben has all the physical tools that he needs, he is just lacking the mental tools to be considered "elite".
Define "elite" for the audience please.

I agree. Are we talking "Fantasy Football" elite?

Or are we talking "being able to do whatever it takes to win" elite?

I'll take the latter.

BradshawsHairdresser
03-08-2011, 12:20 PM
Ben has his faults. But, so does almost any other QB.

Brady is not elusive and sometimes doesn't play well when teams create consistent pressure up the middle (see Jets playoff game). Manning and Marino likewise have/had trouble with pressure. Ben, Farve, and Elway sometimes go gunslinger to the detriment of their teams.

Ben's work ethic was questionable. He was arrogant and self-important. There really is no denying that as he has admitted as much. But, all indications are that he has tried to change his ways. He's no longer the first one out of the building. He worked with a QB coach during his suspension. He's built a film room in his house. Could he still be more dedicated? I don't know. Maybe. But, I have no idea how you know unless you work for the Steelers.

$$$$$
Scalaid doesn't know, he's just trying to stir up controversy.

Blockhead
03-08-2011, 12:34 PM
I agree. Are we talking "Fantasy Football" elite?

Or are we talking "being able to do whatever it takes to win" elite?

I'll take the latter.

Does it matter? Ben fails in both questions.

Ben has done "whatever it takes to win" in 1 SB and even that SB isn't won if not for a 14 point swing provided by James Harrison and the defense. The first SB he played like hot garbage. The last one he gave away with mistakes.

Flasteel
03-08-2011, 12:36 PM
I reviewed the "Scary how good Ben could be thread" and I agree with the OP

IF Ben would dedicate himself to his craft he would be unstoppable. But he wont.

Ben is uncoachable ("I only know how to play one way coach") and that is why he hasnt evolved as a quarterback.

Dont get me wrong, Ben has all the physical tools that he needs, he is just lacking the mental tools to be considered "elite".

Would Ben go to 3 Super Bowls on any other team but the Steelers? I dont think so. I dont think Ben leads the PATS to 3 Super Bowls, he just is not efficeint enough or consistent enough.

I respect what Crash has done and said but for those of you that know me from other Steeler sites, you will soon see that Crash is NO MATCH for me in terms of evaluating a quarterback.

I could be wrong. Time will tell.

1. "If Ben would dedicate himself to his craft he would be unstoppable. But he wont."
You have zero idea how much time he puts in the film room or on the practice field. You have no clue as to what his ceiling is, or what deficiencies in his game are preventing him from reaching it.

2. "Ben is uncoachable ("I only know how to play one way coach") and that is why he hasnt evolved as a quarterback."
Anyone who has watched Ben Roethlisberger, knows that he has evolved as a quarterback. He's gone from universally looked at as a game manager who shouldn't attempt more than 25 passes in a game to universally looked at as a top-five quarterback, who is maybe the most clutch in the game.

3."Dont get me wrong, Ben has all the physical tools that he needs, he is just lacking the mental tools to be considered "elite".
Again, what are you basing this on? Is he consistently making the wrong reads or not finding the open man? Is he staring down his primary read and not going through his progressions? Does he lack a recognition of where the pressure is coming from? Just what are these "mental" deficiencies in his game? He threw for only 5 picks this season and made a marked improvement in getting rid of the ball more quickly.

4. "Would Ben go to 3 Super Bowls on any other team but the Steelers? I dont think so. I dont think Ben leads the PATS to 3 Super Bowls, he just is not efficeint enough or consistent enough."

He was the highest rated 4th quarter QB in the league and he had a 97 BQ rating or above for the 5th time in his seven seasons. As far as efficiency, he has the 8th highest career QB rating in league history and owns the 4th highest winning percentage in league history.

5. "I respect what Crash has done and said but for those of you that know me from other Steeler sites, you will soon see that Crash is NO MATCH for me in terms of evaluating a quarterback."

After such an insightful analysis of our quarterback, I am definitely left wondering where you obtained this incredible skill for evaluating quarterbacks. Did you play the position at recess?

Yes, I'm sure that Ben's game has plenty of room for improvement. However, your opinion is riddled with speculation, conjecture, and generalizations that have little basis in fact. The title of this thread leaves me to believe that you have some type of agenda or bias in regards to Roethlisberger.

The anti-Crash perhaps?

Regardless, this is the first post I've seen from you and it has left me with the impression that you will be bringing little to the table. Welcome. :Cheers

papillon
03-08-2011, 12:41 PM
Geesh...blah, blah, blah...

Ben is good because of the defense
Ben won't last much longer
Ryan is better
Bradford is better
Flacco is better
Rivers is better
Brees is better
[Insert quarterback dujour's name] is better
Ben isn't improving
Ben doesn't study film
Ben can't Duggie
Losing the Super Bowl proves all of the above

Oh, and always the caveat, "Ben is good, but...." and then proceed to list any one of the above, combination of the above or all of the above.

Everyone is better than Ben because he can't read defenses, holds it too long, makes the O-line look bad, can't throw deep, doesn't check down, the defense bails him out, hated Whiz, hated Cowher, didn't listen, didn't sign an autograph for me, etc., etc., etc....nothing new here, move on.

I'd like someone to tell me how in the H3ll Ben ever made it out of pee wee football with all of his deficiencies. It can't be on physical attributes, Jeff George had them, Ryan Leaf had them, Jamarcus Russel had them, David Carr, Alex Smith, Brady Quinn, Akili Smith had them, etc., etc., etc....The NFL is littered with quarterbacks with all the tools and failed.

:HeadBanger

Pappy

ikestops85
03-08-2011, 12:53 PM
I reviewed the "Scary how good Ben could be thread" and I agree with the OP

IF Ben would dedicate himself to his craft he would be unstoppable. But he wont.

Ben is uncoachable ("I only know how to play one way coach") and that is why he hasnt evolved as a quarterback.

Dont get me wrong, Ben has all the physical tools that he needs, he is just lacking the mental tools to be considered "elite".

Would Ben go to 3 Super Bowls on any other team but the Steelers? I dont think so. I dont think Ben leads the PATS to 3 Super Bowls, he just is not efficeint enough or consistent enough.

I respect what Crash has done and said but for those of you that know me from other Steeler sites, you will soon see that Crash is NO MATCH for me in terms of evaluating a quarterback.

I could be wrong. Time will tell.

1. "If Ben would dedicate himself to his craft he would be unstoppable. But he wont."
You have zero idea how much time he puts in the film room or on the practice field. You have no clue as to what his ceiling is, or what deficiencies in his game are preventing him from reaching it.

2. "Ben is uncoachable ("I only know how to play one way coach") and that is why he hasnt evolved as a quarterback."
Anyone who has watched Ben Roethlisberger, knows that he has evolved as a quarterback. He's gone from universally looked at as a game manager who shouldn't attempt more than 25 passes in a game to universally looked at as a top-five quarterback, who is maybe the most clutch in the game.

3."Dont get me wrong, Ben has all the physical tools that he needs, he is just lacking the mental tools to be considered "elite".
Again, what are you basing this on? Is he consistently making the wrong reads or not finding the open man? Is he staring down his primary read and not going through his progressions? Does he lack a recognition of where the pressure is coming from? Just what are these "mental" deficiencies in his game? He threw for only 5 picks this season and made a marked improvement in getting rid of the ball more quickly.

4. "Would Ben go to 3 Super Bowls on any other team but the Steelers? I dont think so. I dont think Ben leads the PATS to 3 Super Bowls, he just is not efficeint enough or consistent enough."

He was the highest rated 4th quarter QB in the league and he had a 97 BQ rating or above for the 5th time in his seven seasons. As far as efficiency, he has the 8th highest career QB rating in league history and owns the 4th highest winning percentage in league history.

5. "I respect what Crash has done and said but for those of you that know me from other Steeler sites, you will soon see that Crash is NO MATCH for me in terms of evaluating a quarterback."

After such an insightful analysis of our quarterback, I am definitely left wondering where you obtained this incredible skill for evaluating quarterbacks. Did you play the position at recess?

Yes, I'm sure that Ben's game has plenty of room for improvement. However, your opinion is riddled with speculation, conjecture, and generalizations that have little basis in fact. The title of this thread leaves me to believe that you have some type of agenda or bias in regards to Roethlisberger.

The anti-Crash perhaps?

Regardless, this is the first post I've seen from you and it has left me with the impression that you will be bringing little to the table. Welcome. :Cheers

Scalaid6, I think this is what Flasteel says

http://www.picpop.com/gallery/albums/userpics/Fight%21/easyflame.jpg

Scalaid6
03-08-2011, 01:03 PM
Dont get me wrong, Ben has all the physical tools that he needs, he is just lacking the mental tools to be considered "elite".
Define "elite" for the audience please.
Elite- meaning quarterbacks who consistently play at an efficient level

Scalaid6
03-08-2011, 01:05 PM
Ben is a WINNER because he plays on the Steelers. If Ben was on the Lions he would be as Steve Young was on the Buccaneers- A loser

Ahhh yes, and if Peyton Manning was on the Lions . . .he would be?????? Hell, he chokes in the biggest games with the Colts offense.

Son, it's one thing to have opinions, it's another to think every one of your opinions is fact. It doesn't make you smart, just an arrogant little prick.

Uh the Colts WERE the Lions PRE MANNING how do you think they got the BEST qb in the draft?

Scalaid6
03-08-2011, 01:06 PM
Yes it is. Why do you think he had a stormy relationship with Cowher?

Why do you think he hated Whisenhunt?

Ben had success early, this was the biggest hit to his development. He felt he didnt need to study as he told Cowher "But were winning coach"

He was the 1st to leave and the last to show up (Ask Joey Porter)

Cowher told him not to ride the new bike without a helmet. Did Ben listen? Even after the accident he was seen riding the bike WITHOUT A HELMET (In fact gave the camera a middle finger)

This season Tomlin tells him to take less hits or he is taking him out, what was his answer? "I only know how to play one way coach"

Its OBVIOUS that Ben is not coachable. No opinion

:lol:

Since you are stating a fact prove it. How does your gibberish prove he is "uncoachable" ??

Tell me what is "uncoachable" according to you???

Jamarcus Russell is "uncoachable" not Ben.


I already proved it. If that is not acceptable to you then nothing will be.

Oviedo
03-08-2011, 01:09 PM
I agree. Are we talking "Fantasy Football" elite?

Or are we talking "being able to do whatever it takes to win" elite?

I'll take the latter.

Does it matter? Ben fails in both questions.

Ben has done "whatever it takes to win" in 1 SB and even that SB isn't won if not for a 14 point swing provided by James Harrison and the defense. The first SB he played like hot garbage. The last one he gave away with mistakes.

So I guess getting a team to 2 Super Bowls and consistent double digit win regular seasons don't mean anything. If how you perform in the Super Bowl is the metric then:
-Peyton Manning is not elite
-Brady ceased to be elite when he lost to the Giants because he has lost every play off game since
-Brees is clearly not elite because he couldn't even beat the Seahawks in the play-offs

By your standard the only elite QB in the NFL is Rodgers. Or it could just be another poor attempt to find fault in Ben with unrealistic and undefinable standards

siss
03-08-2011, 01:09 PM
I believe scailaid posts over on the scout forums. He criticizes Ben for everything. Ben can do no right in this mans eyes. We get it, you don't like him, but your negative obsession is kinda sad. It takes way more effort to hate someone than it does to ignore someone. I think he gets off on criticizing Ben. So while you are allowed to have an opinion, I advice those who have an IQ above 10 to ignore this troll.

Oviedo
03-08-2011, 01:14 PM
Dont get me wrong, Ben has all the physical tools that he needs, he is just lacking the mental tools to be considered "elite".
Define "elite" for the audience please.
Elite- meaning quarterbacks who consistently play at an efficient level

"Efficient level"?????? Can you define and provide clear unambiguous metrics???

Ben has gotten his team to two Super Bowls in 4 years. More than any other QB in the NFL. Clearly not "efficient."

Ben has led his team to win the majority of the AFC North titles since he has come into the league. Clearly not "efficient."

Ben has led his team to double digit wins the majority of the seasons since he became the starting QB in a league that is all about parity. Clearly not "efficient."

I anxiously await your empiricial metrics and how the "real elite" QB match up to them.

siss
03-08-2011, 01:23 PM
Dont get me wrong, Ben has all the physical tools that he needs, he is just lacking the mental tools to be considered "elite".
Define "elite" for the audience please.
Elite- meaning quarterbacks who consistently play at an efficient level

"Efficient level"?????? Can you define and provide clear unambiguous metrics???

Ben has gotten his team to two Super Bowls in 4 years. More than any other QB in the NFL. Clearly not "efficient."

Ben has led his team to win the majority of the AFC North titles since he has come into the league. Clearly not "efficient."

Ben has led his team to double digit wins the majority of the seasons since he became the starting QB in a league that is all about parity. Clearly not "efficient."

I anxiously await your empiricial metrics and how the "real elite" QB match up to them.

Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.

Don't feed the troll, it only encourages them. I know your right, most of this web site knows you are right. Perhaps this guy would be better off cheering on the Stains since he can't appreciate his team and the franchise QB we have.

Scalaid6
03-08-2011, 01:24 PM
I reviewed the "Scary how good Ben could be thread" and I agree with the OP

IF Ben would dedicate himself to his craft he would be unstoppable. But he wont.

Ben is uncoachable ("I only know how to play one way coach") and that is why he hasnt evolved as a quarterback.

Dont get me wrong, Ben has all the physical tools that he needs, he is just lacking the mental tools to be considered "elite".

Would Ben go to 3 Super Bowls on any other team but the Steelers? I dont think so. I dont think Ben leads the PATS to 3 Super Bowls, he just is not efficeint enough or consistent enough.

I respect what Crash has done and said but for those of you that know me from other Steeler sites, you will soon see that Crash is NO MATCH for me in terms of evaluating a quarterback.

I could be wrong. Time will tell.

1. "If Ben would dedicate himself to his craft he would be unstoppable. But he wont."
You have zero idea how much time he puts in the film room or on the practice field. You have no clue as to what his ceiling is, or what deficiencies in his game are preventing him from reaching it.

2. "Ben is uncoachable ("I only know how to play one way coach") and that is why he hasnt evolved as a quarterback."
Anyone who has watched Ben Roethlisberger, knows that he has evolved as a quarterback. He's gone from universally looked at as a game manager who shouldn't attempt more than 25 passes in a game to universally looked at as a top-five quarterback, who is maybe the most clutch in the game.

3."Dont get me wrong, Ben has all the physical tools that he needs, he is just lacking the mental tools to be considered "elite".
Again, what are you basing this on? Is he consistently making the wrong reads or not finding the open man? Is he staring down his primary read and not going through his progressions? Does he lack a recognition of where the pressure is coming from? Just what are these "mental" deficiencies in his game? He threw for only 5 picks this season and made a marked improvement in getting rid of the ball more quickly.

4. "Would Ben go to 3 Super Bowls on any other team but the Steelers? I dont think so. I dont think Ben leads the PATS to 3 Super Bowls, he just is not efficeint enough or consistent enough."

He was the highest rated 4th quarter QB in the league and he had a 97 BQ rating or above for the 5th time in his seven seasons. As far as efficiency, he has the 8th highest career QB rating in league history and owns the 4th highest winning percentage in league history.

5. "I respect what Crash has done and said but for those of you that know me from other Steeler sites, you will soon see that Crash is NO MATCH for me in terms of evaluating a quarterback."

After such an insightful analysis of our quarterback, I am definitely left wondering where you obtained this incredible skill for evaluating quarterbacks. Did you play the position at recess?

Yes, I'm sure that Ben's game has plenty of room for improvement. However, your opinion is riddled with speculation, conjecture, and generalizations that have little basis in fact. The title of this thread leaves me to believe that you have some type of agenda or bias in regards to Roethlisberger.

The anti-Crash perhaps?

Regardless, this is the first post I've seen from you and it has left me with the impression that you will be bringing little to the table. Welcome. :Cheers


1. When have you EVER heard of Ben getting together after practice and putting in extra time with the receivers? NAME ONE TIME PLEASE. According to BEN ROETHLISBERS in a interview with he admitted to not watching as much film as Manning (That works for HIm but I watch my share of film, not at much as him but I would rather looking at an opposing teams shell defenses in practice, that works for me" So I got it from BEN sir.

2. A clutch Qb is clutch ANYWHERE. I think Manning, Brady, Brees, Rodgers, Rivers would be good no matter what team they are on. Ben would suck on the Lions, Browns, Raiders, Bengals etc Ben needs a defense to get him over the hump. The PRIMARY reason that we are elite as a team is our DEFENSE and not our offense or qb.

3. The mental deficiencies are OBVIOUS if you know the qb position. Ben has horrible pre snap reads (lack of preparation). Do you notice how he gives the Defense an decisive advantage on ALMOST EVERY PLAY. How do you ask? He takes SO LONG to make his pre snap read that he lets the play clock run down inside :05 on almost every play. How can this benefit the offense? The defenders can see the clock and time the snap, therefore getting a better jump. Ben rarely makes audibles, he is a slave to the called play. This shows lack of awareness. In the Super Bowl Clay is calling out the play. Ben should realize that they know it and audible it to another play, common sense. Ben RARELY utilizes the sight adjustment rule. I have been to many quarterback clinics and camps and Ben Roethlisberger is the poster child of what NOT TO DO at quarteback.

4. Again, he has a high WINNIGN pct because he is on the STEELERS. Ben has had ONLY 2 seasons with a passer rating over 100. He has thrown for 30 TDs only one time in his career. The offense habitually STINKS in the redzone. Why? Because Ben is slow to process the information. Too bad that passer rating that you HOMERS always site doesnt include drive stoppers like fumbles and sacks. The stat is FLAWED.

5. Agenda? Perhaps. That agenda would be that I want my offense to play as well as my defense. We expect excellence from Arians, Tomlin, Oline, DB's and STs but when it comes to Ben we can settle for good play not great play. Ben had a 30 rating in the AFCCG but that was CLUTCH because we won. OK

calmkiller
03-08-2011, 01:27 PM
Love all the trolls recently. Maybe its just one with multiple names...

Scalaid6
03-08-2011, 01:27 PM
Dont get me wrong, Ben has all the physical tools that he needs, he is just lacking the mental tools to be considered "elite".
Define "elite" for the audience please.
Elite- meaning quarterbacks who consistently play at an efficient level

"Efficient level"?????? Can you define and provide clear unambiguous metrics???

Ben has gotten his team to two Super Bowls in 4 years. More than any other QB in the NFL. Clearly not "efficient."

Ben has led his team to win the majority of the AFC North titles since he has come into the league. Clearly not "efficient."

Ben has led his team to double digit wins the majority of the seasons since he became the starting QB in a league that is all about parity. Clearly not "efficient."

I anxiously await your empiricial metrics and how the "real elite" QB match up to them.

The DEFENSE got them to the SB in 08 and the RUNNING GAME IN 05 (You attribute that to Ben? WOW)

Ben has ONE team MVP in 7 seasons. That tells me that his OWN TEAM doesnt think he is that big of a factor.

PLEASE LIST 4 GAMES IN A ROW BY BEN ROETHLISBERGER WHERE HE HAS PRODUCED ELITE STATS.

I'LL WAIT

Scalaid6
03-08-2011, 01:30 PM
I believe scailaid posts over on the scout forums. He criticizes Ben for everything. Ben can do no right in this mans eyes. We get it, you don't like him, but your negative obsession is kinda sad. It takes way more effort to hate someone than it does to ignore someone. I think he gets off on criticizing Ben. So while you are allowed to have an opinion, I advice those who have an IQ above 10 to ignore this troll.

I DO post on Scout. You are incorrect though. I ALWAYS give Ben credit when he deserves it.

If you criticize Arians, Tomlin, Ike, The Oline etc you are a valid Steeler fan

BUT IF YOU CRITCIZE BEN ROETHLISBERGER YOU ARE A TROLL

LOL

TOO FUNNY

siss
03-08-2011, 01:33 PM
I believe scailaid posts over on the scout forums. He criticizes Ben for everything. Ben can do no right in this mans eyes. We get it, you don't like him, but your negative obsession is kinda sad. It takes way more effort to hate someone than it does to ignore someone. I think he gets off on criticizing Ben. So while you are allowed to have an opinion, I advice those who have an IQ above 10 to ignore this troll.

I DO post on Scout. You are incorrect though. I ALWAYS give Ben credit when he deserves it.

If you criticize Arians, Tomlin, Ike, The Oline etc you are a valid Steeler fan

BUT IF YOU CRITCIZE BEN ROETHLISBERGER YOU ARE A TROLL

LOL

TOO FUNNY

Criticizing Ben does not make you a troll. What makes you a troll is your reputation of being a troll.

Scalaid6
03-08-2011, 01:35 PM
Ben Roethlisberger has habitually taken advantage of WEAK teams to pad stats.

He has failed tremendously vs good teams (defenses). Sure there are good games here and there (exception to every rule)

Just review his stats vs the good teams this season, then look at them vs the bad ones. Tell me what do you see??????

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/p ... yerId=5536 (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?playerId=5536)

Scalaid6
03-08-2011, 01:36 PM
I believe scailaid posts over on the scout forums. He criticizes Ben for everything. Ben can do no right in this mans eyes. We get it, you don't like him, but your negative obsession is kinda sad. It takes way more effort to hate someone than it does to ignore someone. I think he gets off on criticizing Ben. So while you are allowed to have an opinion, I advice those who have an IQ above 10 to ignore this troll.

I DO post on Scout. You are incorrect though. I ALWAYS give Ben credit when he deserves it.

If you criticize Arians, Tomlin, Ike, The Oline etc you are a valid Steeler fan

BUT IF YOU CRITCIZE BEN ROETHLISBERGER YOU ARE A TROLL

LOL

TOO FUNNY

Criticizing Ben does not make you a troll. What makes you a troll is your reputation of being a troll.

That make about as much sense as Bens off field behavior

Oviedo
03-08-2011, 01:40 PM
Ben Roethlisberger has habitually taken advantage of WEAK teams to pad stats.

He has failed tremendously vs good teams (defenses). Sure there are good games here and there (exception to every rule)

Just review his stats vs the good teams this season, then look at them vs the bad ones. Tell me what do you see??????

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/p ... yerId=5536 (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?playerId=5536)

And no other QB in the NFL "pads" his stats against weaker teams? Only Ben's stats reflect this?

Check out Brees this season? Look at Rivers' stats. His are obviously meaningless because he has accomplished nothing in his career except excite Fantasy Football nerds.

Oviedo
03-08-2011, 01:43 PM
Dont get me wrong, Ben has all the physical tools that he needs, he is just lacking the mental tools to be considered "elite".
Define "elite" for the audience please.
Elite- meaning quarterbacks who consistently play at an efficient level

"Efficient level"?????? Can you define and provide clear unambiguous metrics???

Ben has gotten his team to two Super Bowls in 4 years. More than any other QB in the NFL. Clearly not "efficient."

Ben has led his team to win the majority of the AFC North titles since he has come into the league. Clearly not "efficient."

Ben has led his team to double digit wins the majority of the seasons since he became the starting QB in a league that is all about parity. Clearly not "efficient."

I anxiously await your empiricial metrics and how the "real elite" QB match up to them.

The DEFENSE got them to the SB in 08 and the RUNNING GAME IN 05 (You attribute that to Ben? WOW)

Ben has ONE team MVP in 7 seasons. That tells me that his OWN TEAM doesnt think he is that big of a factor.

PLEASE LIST 4 GAMES IN A ROW BY BEN ROETHLISBERGER WHERE HE HAS PRODUCED ELITE STATS.

I'LL WAIT

You are rapidly losing your argument. I'm still waiting for your metrics. Are four games in a row a metric? Check out Brees at the beginning of 2010. Do you consider him elite.

Please establish your metrics and make them unambiguous so they can be applied to every QB in the NFL.

If you can't go back to whatever board you were on before your 10 posts here and put the training wheels back on. This site is for grown ups.

siss
03-08-2011, 01:47 PM
I believe scailaid posts over on the scout forums. He criticizes Ben for everything. Ben can do no right in this mans eyes. We get it, you don't like him, but your negative obsession is kinda sad. It takes way more effort to hate someone than it does to ignore someone. I think he gets off on criticizing Ben. So while you are allowed to have an opinion, I advice those who have an IQ above 10 to ignore this troll.

I DO post on Scout. You are incorrect though. I ALWAYS give Ben credit when he deserves it.

If you criticize Arians, Tomlin, Ike, The Oline etc you are a valid Steeler fan

BUT IF YOU CRITCIZE BEN ROETHLISBERGER YOU ARE A TROLL

LOL

TOO FUNNY

Criticizing Ben does not make you a troll. What makes you a troll is your reputation of being a troll.

That make about as much sense as Bens off field behavior
I can type slower if you like.

You are a troll.

You have a reputation on other boards as being a troll...so your a troll. If it looks like a troll and acts like a troll its a troll.

Scalaid6
03-08-2011, 01:51 PM
Ben Roethlisberger has habitually taken advantage of WEAK teams to pad stats.

He has failed tremendously vs good teams (defenses). Sure there are good games here and there (exception to every rule)

Just review his stats vs the good teams this season, then look at them vs the bad ones. Tell me what do you see??????

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/p ... yerId=5536 (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?playerId=5536)

And no other QB in the NFL "pads" his stats against weaker teams? Only Ben's stats reflect this?

Check out Brees this season? Look at Rivers' stats. His are obviously meaningless because he has accomplished nothing in his career except excite Fantasy Football nerds.


I dont watch every other qb, I watch the Steelers. How did Brees look against our #1 defense THIS SEASON?

Scalaid6
03-08-2011, 01:54 PM
Ben has led his team to win the majority of the AFC North titles since he has come into the league. Clearly not "efficient."

Ben has led his team to double digit wins the majority of the seasons since he became the starting QB in a league that is all about parity. Clearly not "efficient."

I anxiously await your empiricial metrics and how the "real elite" QB match up to them.[/quote]

The DEFENSE got them to the SB in 08 and the RUNNING GAME IN 05 (You attribute that to Ben? WOW)

Ben has ONE team MVP in 7 seasons. That tells me that his OWN TEAM doesnt think he is that big of a factor.

PLEASE LIST 4 GAMES IN A ROW BY BEN ROETHLISBERGER WHERE HE HAS PRODUCED ELITE STATS.

I'LL WAIT[/quote]

You are rapidly losing your argument. I'm still waiting for your metrics. Are four games in a row a metric? Check out Brees at the beginning of 2010. Do you consider him elite.

Please establish your metrics and make them unambiguous so they can be applied to every QB in the NFL.

If you can't go back to whatever board you were on before your 10 posts here and put the training wheels back on. This site is for grown ups.[/quote]


You dont dictate how I debate. Put parameters on someone else. I see you couldnt site those 4 games in a row as asked, very telling.

I saw Brees against us and he looked ELITE to me

Scalaid6
03-08-2011, 01:55 PM
I believe scailaid posts over on the scout forums. He criticizes Ben for everything. Ben can do no right in this mans eyes. We get it, you don't like him, but your negative obsession is kinda sad. It takes way more effort to hate someone than it does to ignore someone. I think he gets off on criticizing Ben. So while you are allowed to have an opinion, I advice those who have an IQ above 10 to ignore this troll.

I DO post on Scout. You are incorrect though. I ALWAYS give Ben credit when he deserves it.

If you criticize Arians, Tomlin, Ike, The Oline etc you are a valid Steeler fan

BUT IF YOU CRITCIZE BEN ROETHLISBERGER YOU ARE A TROLL

LOL

TOO FUNNY

Criticizing Ben does not make you a troll. What makes you a troll is your reputation of being a troll.

That make about as much sense as Bens off field behavior
I can type slower if you like.

You are a troll.

You have a reputation on other boards as being a troll...so your a troll. If it looks like a troll and acts like a troll its a troll.


So Ben has a reputation as a R*pist so does that mean that it is true? I think not

grotonsteel
03-08-2011, 02:01 PM
Ben Roethlisberger has habitually taken advantage of WEAK teams to pad stats.

He has failed tremendously vs good teams (defenses). Sure there are good games here and there (exception to every rule)

Just review his stats vs the good teams this season, then look at them vs the bad ones. Tell me what do you see??????

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/p ... yerId=5536 (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?playerId=5536)

And no other QB in the NFL "pads" his stats against weaker teams? Only Ben's stats reflect this?

Check out Brees this season? Look at Rivers' stats. His are obviously meaningless because he has accomplished nothing in his career except excite Fantasy Football nerds.


I dont watch every other qb, I watch the Steelers. How did Brees look against our #1 defense THIS SEASON?


You don't watch any other QB in NFL and you have balls to say Brees,Manning, River and Rodgers are better than Ben... LMFAO

Another Fantasy football junkie who loves to click on yahoo box score for his opinion.

Next time watch games and then open your trap.

siss
03-08-2011, 02:10 PM
So Ben has a reputation as a R*pist so does that mean that it is true? I think not
Only from people to stupid to figure out that an unhinged hotel worker and a drunk sorority girl are lying.

If you want to do go there we can go their. Im actually surprised you didn't already bring it up.

Oviedo
03-08-2011, 02:28 PM
Ben has led his team to win the majority of the AFC North titles since he has come into the league. Clearly not "efficient."

Ben has led his team to double digit wins the majority of the seasons since he became the starting QB in a league that is all about parity. Clearly not "efficient."

I anxiously await your empiricial metrics and how the "real elite" QB match up to them.

The DEFENSE got them to the SB in 08 and the RUNNING GAME IN 05 (You attribute that to Ben? WOW)

Ben has ONE team MVP in 7 seasons. That tells me that his OWN TEAM doesnt think he is that big of a factor.

PLEASE LIST 4 GAMES IN A ROW BY BEN ROETHLISBERGER WHERE HE HAS PRODUCED ELITE STATS.

I'LL WAIT[/quote]

You are rapidly losing your argument. I'm still waiting for your metrics. Are four games in a row a metric? Check out Brees at the beginning of 2010. Do you consider him elite.

Please establish your metrics and make them unambiguous so they can be applied to every QB in the NFL.

If you can't go back to whatever board you were on before your 10 posts here and put the training wheels back on. This site is for grown ups.[/quote]


You dont dictate how I debate. Put parameters on someone else. I see you couldnt site those 4 games in a row as asked, very telling.

I saw Brees against us and he looked ELITE to me[/quote]

I'll take that as your admission that you have lost.

Let me teach you what you did wrong. You have set forth a hypothesis yet you can provide no evidence to support that hypothesis. You make a blanket staement about how a specific individual compares to a larger group yet you acknowledge you only watch the one individual in that group who you don't like. You can't support the thesis you set forth with evidence so you try to pass that task on to others and when they hold your feet to the fire to present your evidence and metrics you say the "can't dictate how you debate." Well if you are a lazy debater who just throws out unsuppoted opinions the I guess that is right. But then you need to clearly articulate that you are putting forth unsupportable biased personal opinions and not actually debating at all.

Like I said, go back to the JV message boards and practcie so you can be taken seriously the next time you post.

Blockhead
03-08-2011, 02:36 PM
So Ben has a reputation as a R*pist so does that mean that it is true? I think not
Only from people to stupid to figure out that an unhinged hotel worker and a drunk sorority girl are lying.

If you want to do go there we can go their. Im actually surprised you didn't already bring it up.

Comedy Gold! :lol:

Crash
03-08-2011, 02:50 PM
Uh the Colts WERE the Lions PRE MANNING how do you think they got the BEST qb in the draft?

The Colts missed the playoffs 4 of 6 seasons prior to Manning.

But the Colts also made the playoffs 2 of 3 seasons, including one AFC title game, prior to Manning.

Just like the Steelers did before Ben.

Until you anti-Ben, pro-Manning mouth-breathers can somehow explain that Ben was drafted by a "good team" and yet Manning was drafted by a team that resembled the Lions when the teams went through the same exact period? Don't waste my time boys.

Scalaid6
03-08-2011, 02:57 PM
Ben Roethlisberger has habitually taken advantage of WEAK teams to pad stats.

He has failed tremendously vs good teams (defenses). Sure there are good games here and there (exception to every rule)

Just review his stats vs the good teams this season, then look at them vs the bad ones. Tell me what do you see??????

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/p ... yerId=5536 (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?playerId=5536)

And no other QB in the NFL "pads" his stats against weaker teams? Only Ben's stats reflect this?

Check out Brees this season? Look at Rivers' stats. His are obviously meaningless because he has accomplished nothing in his career except excite Fantasy Football nerds.


I dont watch every other qb, I watch the Steelers. How did Brees look against our #1 defense THIS SEASON?


You don't watch any other QB in NFL and you have balls to say Brees,Manning, River and Rodgers are better than Ben... LMFAO

Another Fantasy football junkie who loves to click on yahoo box score for his opinion.

Next time watch games and then open your trap.


Fantasy football is based on what? POINTS AND PRODUCTION. Not a fan of fantasy football just refuting the flimsy statement.

They are all better than Ben just like Revis, Namdi, Champ are better than Ike.

aggiebones
03-08-2011, 03:00 PM
"Would Ben go to 3 Super Bowls on any other team but the Steelers? "

How many other Steelers QB did it? 1 old balding dude that many also bash for similar faults. And he was not this successful at Ben's age. Fans were booing him for hmmmm, lack of consistency.


None of us reach our true full potential so let's not expect it of him. He is doing well, enjoy it. And ponder how many other Steeler QBs couldn't find the Super Bowl between he and Terry.

Crash
03-08-2011, 03:00 PM
I saw Brees against us and he looked ELITE to me

He did? They had 13 points until Heath Miller fumbled late in the 4th. Brees also had a pick and a fumble. That's elite?

You haven't posted on Scout in five days, my guess is they got fed up with you and banned you.

Scalaid6
03-08-2011, 03:00 PM
So Ben has a reputation as a R*pist so does that mean that it is true? I think not
Only from people to stupid to figure out that an unhinged hotel worker and a drunk sorority girl are lying.

If you want to do go there we can go their. Im actually surprised you didn't already bring it up.

Dont you mean "too" and "go there".

However, I agree with you. Still doesnt change the fact that he has a reputation (albeit false).

My point is just because people say it doesnt make it true. That lesson was free.

Blockhead
03-08-2011, 03:03 PM
You haven't posted on Scout in five days, my guess is they got fed up with you and banned you.
They also banned you and that is why you post under "GuySmiley7" now.

Scalaid6
03-08-2011, 03:04 PM
Let me teach you what you did wrong. You have set forth a hypothesis yet you can provide no evidence to support that hypothesis. You make a blanket staement about how a specific individual compares to a larger group yet you acknowledge you only watch the one individual in that group who you don't like. You can't support the thesis you set forth with evidence so you try to pass that task on to others and when they hold your feet to the fire to present your evidence and metrics you say the "can't dictate how you debate." Well if you are a lazy debater who just throws out unsuppoted opinions the I guess that is right. But then you need to clearly articulate that you are putting forth unsupportable biased personal opinions and not actually debating at all.

Like I said, go back to the JV message boards and practcie so you can be taken seriously the next time you post.[/quote]

I love when DUMB guys try to copy and paste material to appear intelligent. How cute.

I have presented stats, in game examples, run ins with teammates, disagreements with coaches and failures in areas such as sight adjustments. Obviously you dont know what that is. So now I understand why you are drowning in my sea of knowledge.

Scalaid6
03-08-2011, 03:06 PM
Uh the Colts WERE the Lions PRE MANNING how do you think they got the BEST qb in the draft?

The Colts missed the playoffs 4 of 6 seasons prior to Manning.

But the Colts also made the playoffs 2 of 3 seasons, including one AFC title game, prior to Manning.

Just like the Steelers did before Ben.

Until you anti-Ben, pro-Manning mouth-breathers can somehow explain that Ben was drafted by a "good team" and yet Manning was drafted by a team that resembled the Lions when the teams went through the same exact period? Don't waste my time boys.

The Steelers were bad due to SCHEME (passing). The Colts were bad due to LACK OF TALENT.

GET IT?

Crash
03-08-2011, 03:07 PM
They also banned you and that is why you post under "GuySmiley7" now.

Wexell bans me 43 because I don't like him personally and I call him out for his hypocrisy as a person. Which has been proven to be 100% correct when you look at Wexell's own conduct.

grotonsteel
03-08-2011, 03:10 PM
Ben Roethlisberger has habitually taken advantage of WEAK teams to pad stats.

He has failed tremendously vs good teams (defenses). Sure there are good games here and there (exception to every rule)

Just review his stats vs the good teams this season, then look at them vs the bad ones. Tell me what do you see??????

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/p ... yerId=5536 (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?playerId=5536)

And no other QB in the NFL "pads" his stats against weaker teams? Only Ben's stats reflect this?

Check out Brees this season? Look at Rivers' stats. His are obviously meaningless because he has accomplished nothing in his career except excite Fantasy Football nerds.


I dont watch every other qb, I watch the Steelers. How did Brees look against our #1 defense THIS SEASON?


You don't watch any other QB in NFL and you have balls to say Brees,Manning, River and Rodgers are better than Ben... LMFAO

Another Fantasy football junkie who loves to click on yahoo box score for his opinion.

Next time watch games and then open your trap.


Fantasy football is based on what? POINTS AND PRODUCTION. Not a fan of fantasy football just refuting the flimsy statement.

They are all better than Ben just like Revis, Namdi, Champ are better than Ike.



:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


So Rivers should have won SB according to your logic?? He has all the POINTS and PRODUCTION.


BTW how did Ben play against Cheatroits???

Again go watch a NFL game before opening your trap.

Crash
03-08-2011, 03:11 PM
The Steelers were bad due to SCHEME (passing). The Colts were bad due to LACK OF TALENT.

GET IT?

So the Colts went to the AFC title game in 1995, and back to the playoffs in 1996 prior to Peyton's 1998 arrival and yet they didn't have talent? If you say so.

Blockhead
03-08-2011, 03:13 PM
They also banned you and that is why you post under "GuySmiley7" now.

Wexell bans me 43 because I don't like him personally and I call him out for his hypocrisy as a person. Which has been proven to be 100% correct when you look at Wexell's own conduct.
Wexell banned you 43 times? Wow.

I'm sure you think those are the reasons and I am as sure you think you are 100% correct.

Scalaid6
03-08-2011, 03:13 PM
I saw Brees against us and he looked ELITE to me

He did? They had 13 points until Heath Miller fumbled late in the 4th. Brees also had a pick and a fumble. That's elite?

You haven't posted on Scout in five days, my guess is they got fed up with you and banned you.

I JUST posted on Scout. What would I be banned for? Aggravated posting and felonious Ben Homer smacking?

Brees 34-44 305 Yds 2 TD 1 Int

Ben 17-28 195 0 TD 1Int

Who had the ELITE game in your opinion? I would say BREES. ESPECIALLY since he did it against us.

Scalaid6
03-08-2011, 03:14 PM
You haven't posted on Scout in five days, my guess is they got fed up with you and banned you.
They also banned you and that is why you post under "GuySmiley7" now.


HILLARIOUS

Blockhead
03-08-2011, 03:15 PM
The Steelers were bad due to SCHEME (passing). The Colts were bad due to LACK OF TALENT.

GET IT?

So the Colts went to the AFC title game in 1995, and back to the playoffs in 1996 prior to Peyton's 1998 arrival and yet they didn't have talent? If you say so.
So you feel the talent on the 1998 Colts is equal to the 2004 Steelers?

And why do you completely switch your standards when discussing Peyton versus Ben?

Scalaid6
03-08-2011, 03:18 PM
So Rivers should have won SB according to your logic?? He has all the POINTS and PRODUCTION.


BTW how did Ben play against Cheatroits???

Again go watch a NFL game before opening your trap.[/quote]


IF He was on the Steelers he would have. So would Dan Marino (a guy who sucks according to your logic) You give guys like Dilfer, Brad Johnson and Jeff Hostettler bonuses for winning the big game and shoot down gunslingers like Kelly, Marino, Tarkenton and Fouts because they didnt. They are STILL great qbs in their own rights.

Ben played TERRIBLE vs the cheatriots UNTIL they went prevent.

Scalaid6
03-08-2011, 03:20 PM
The Steelers were bad due to SCHEME (passing). The Colts were bad due to LACK OF TALENT.

GET IT?

So the Colts went to the AFC title game in 1995, and back to the playoffs in 1996 prior to Peyton's 1998 arrival and yet they didn't have talent? If you say so.


That was WITH FAULK. They suffered without him. My point is PEYTON MANNING IS THE PRIMARY REASON the Colts are elite.

OUR DEFENSE if the PRIMARY reason we are- NOT BEN

Crash
03-08-2011, 03:21 PM
Brees 34-44 305 Yds 2 TD 1 Int

And a fumble lost. Can't forget that.


Who had the ELITE game in your opinion?

NEITHER.

Crash
03-08-2011, 03:23 PM
I'm sure you think those are the reasons and I am as sure you think you are 100% correct.

Ask him. He can't keep his mouth shut so IMO he would admit it.

Scalaid6
03-08-2011, 03:25 PM
[quote]Brees 34-44 305 Yds 2 TD 1 Int

And a fumble lost. Can't forget that.


Who had the ELITE game in your opinion?

NEITHER.[/quote:2qmo9s9i]

A fumble lost? Ben had 17 TDS AND 15 INTS AND EIGHT FUMBLES lost and won a Super Bowl in 08. Thats TWENTY THREE TURNOVERS BY THE QB.

Brees played better than Ben

Brees completed SEVENTY SEVEN % of his passes and had a 101 rating

Ben had a SIXTY SIX rating.

KEEP SHOWING YOUR COLORS HOMER

LOL

grotonsteel
03-08-2011, 03:27 PM
So Rivers should have won SB according to your logic?? He has all the POINTS and PRODUCTION.


BTW how did Ben play against Cheatroits???

Again go watch a NFL game before opening your trap.


IF He was on the Steelers he would have. So would Dan Marino (a guy who sucks according to your logic) You give guys like Dilfer, Brad Johnson and Jeff Hostettler bonuses for winning the big game and shoot down gunslingers like Kelly, Marino, Tarkenton and Fouts because they didnt. They are STILL great qbs in their own rights.

Ben played TERRIBLE vs the cheatriots UNTIL they went prevent.[/quote]


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Have you ever watched an NFL game in your life???

Rivers had a Top-5 Defense. So shove your argument that Rivers would have won on Steelers team.He can't freaking take his team to playoff in a weak division with a Top-5 Defense in NFL.

Rivers scored garbage points and if you watched NFL games maybe you might figure it out. Stop clicking on Yahoo box score.

Why would you say Ben played terrible against Cheatroits??? He has POINTS and PRODUCTION.

So you get my point. FANTASY FOOTBALL is not everything.

Again you failed to answer is 33-22 TD/INT better than 17-5 TD/INT with 3000 yards in 12 games???

Crash
03-08-2011, 03:28 PM
So you feel the talent on the 1998 Colts is equal to the 2004 Steelers?

If the 2004 Steelers had all this talent why did they miss the playoffs 4 of the previous 6 seasons before Ben?


And why do you completely switch your standards when discussing Peyton versus Ben?

It's you anti-Ben Peyton ball lickers who who change the rules just like Manning's media pals do.

Crash
03-08-2011, 03:29 PM
Brees played better than Ben

The question asked was who had the elite GAME, not who played better of the two QBs during it.

Neither had an elite game.

grotonsteel
03-08-2011, 03:31 PM
The Steelers were bad due to SCHEME (passing). The Colts were bad due to LACK OF TALENT.

GET IT?

So the Colts went to the AFC title game in 1995, and back to the playoffs in 1996 prior to Peyton's 1998 arrival and yet they didn't have talent? If you say so.


That was WITH FAULK. They suffered without him. My point is PEYTON MANNING IS THE PRIMARY REASON the Colts are elite.

OUR DEFENSE if the PRIMARY reason we are- NOT BEN

Steelers spend 70% of their salary cap on Defense. Why should you not expect Defense to play better than offense. Its completely reverse on Colts team.

Oh BTW the season Colts won SB..Peyton has 1 TD- 4 INT in the playoff run. Just saying.

Scalaid6
03-08-2011, 03:32 PM
So Rivers should have won SB according to your logic?? He has all the POINTS and PRODUCTION.


BTW how did Ben play against Cheatroits???

Again go watch a NFL game before opening your trap.


IF He was on the Steelers he would have. So would Dan Marino (a guy who sucks according to your logic) You give guys like Dilfer, Brad Johnson and Jeff Hostettler bonuses for winning the big game and shoot down gunslingers like Kelly, Marino, Tarkenton and Fouts because they didnt. They are STILL great qbs in their own rights.

Ben played TERRIBLE vs the cheatriots UNTIL they went prevent.


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Have you ever watched an NFL game in your life???

Rivers had a Top-5 Defense. So shove your argument that Rivers would have won on Steelers team.He can't freaking take his team to playoff in a weak division with a Top-5 Defense in NFL.

Rivers scored garbage points and if you watched NFL games maybe you might figure it out. Stop clicking on Yahoo box score.

Why would you say Ben played terrible against Cheatroits??? He has POINTS and PRODUCTION.

So you get my point. FANTASY FOOTBALL is not everything.

Again you failed to answer is 33-22 TD/INT better than 17-5 TD/INT with 3000 yards in 12 games???[/quote]

Rivers doesnt have a Mendenhall. WHY did Rivers get drafted BEFORE Ben?
Probably because he IS BETTER.

Rivers is a productive qb do you think that production would stop on the Steelers? I dont.

Ben got those points and production vs THE PREVENT as stated earlier. Prior to that PREVENT he produced THREE POINTS.

NEXT EXCUSE?

Scalaid6
03-08-2011, 03:34 PM
[quote]So you feel the talent on the 1998 Colts is equal to the 2004 Steelers?

If the 2004 Steelers had all this talent why did they miss the playoffs 4 of the previous 6 seasons before Ben?


And why do you completely switch your standards when discussing Peyton versus Ben?

It's you anti-Ben Peyton ball lickers who who change the rules just like Manning's media pals do.[/quote:13fx5nle]


I never said ANYTHING about our talent in 04. Ben won all those games THANKS TO THE RUNNING GAME.
When we needed Ben to PASS in the AFCCG what happened?

HE FAILED

Blockhead
03-08-2011, 03:35 PM
If the 2004 Steelers had all this talent why did they miss the playoffs 4 of the previous 6 seasons before Ben?
Don't pose a question back to a question. Answer the question. You proclaim to be expert everything when it comes to the Steelers so I would expect you to know the reasons we fell short in 2004.


It's you anti-Ben Peyton ball lickers who who change the rules just like Manning's media pals do.
It seems to me the only one reversing criteria and using excuses in lieu of presented facts is yourself. You have proven to be completely uninformed and yet, when informed, still refuse to admit to facts.

I await your answer to the above posted question.

Scalaid6
03-08-2011, 03:35 PM
Brees played better than Ben

The question asked was who had the elite GAME, not who played better of the two QBs during it.

Neither had an elite game.

So why cant you list FOUR GAMES IN A ROW WHERE BEN ROETHLISBERGER HAS PRODUCED ELITE STATS?

I'll tell you why you can because HE HASNT DONE IT. This is PROOF that he is inconsistent as heck.

You have 7 years. Please list FOUR IN A ROW

I'LL WAIT

Crash
03-08-2011, 03:37 PM
Rivers doesnt have a Mendenhall

No, he only had sure fire HOF LT for four seasons and still couldn't win a ring.

Btw, Ben won two rings WITHOUT Mendenhall.

This is too easy, make an EFFORT.

Blockhead
03-08-2011, 03:40 PM
Rivers doesnt have a Mendenhall

No, he only had sure fire HOF LT for four seasons and still couldn't win a ring.

Btw, Ben won two rings WITHOUT Mendenhall.

This is too easy, make an EFFORT.
And Peyton Manning lost a first ballot HOF'er and yet you suggest the talent in 1998 Colts is compareable to 2004 Steelers?

Criteria changing again? That's twice in one thread you have used the same criteria to support Ben yet bash Peyton and Philip?

Inconsistent much?

Crash
03-08-2011, 03:42 PM
When we needed Ben to PASS in the AFCCG what happened?

They were down 24-3 and were on the verge of cutting it to seven points before Cowher decided to run the ball again and then kick a 20 yard field goal down 31-17.

That game is exactly what I and others talk about. For most of the first half they did what you clowns wanted and tried to run the ball.

Fell behind 17-3 doing it.

Scalaid6
03-08-2011, 03:42 PM
Rivers doesnt have a Mendenhall

No, he only had sure fire HOF LT for four seasons and still couldn't win a ring.

Btw, Ben won two rings WITHOUT Mendenhall.

This is too easy, make an EFFORT.


Why did I KNOW that was coming? WHEN LT was there he was a GAME MANAGER but didnt have the defense that Ben had. List Rivers offensive help and I'll list Bens

Plaxico Burress, Jerome Bettis, Willie Parker, Rashard Mendenhall, Heath Miller, Mike Wallace, Hines Ward, Santonio Holmes, Alan Fanaca, Maurkice Pouncey. Not to mention Joey Porter, James Harrison, Lawrence Timmons, Ike Taylor, Troy Polamalu, Casey Hampton, Aaron Smith, James Farrior and Lamarr Woodley

Now you list Rivers'

I'LL WAIT

Scalaid6
03-08-2011, 03:44 PM
When we needed Ben to PASS in the AFCCG what happened?

They were down 24-3 and were on the verge of cutting it to seven points before Cowher decided to run the ball again and then kick a 20 yard field goal down 31-17.

That game is exactly what I and others talk about. For most of the first half they did what you clowns wanted and tried to run the ball.

Fell behind 17-3 doing it.

They fell behind due to lack of production from the qb

JUST LIKE IN THIS YEARS SB

Shawn
03-08-2011, 03:44 PM
you cant measure a players will to win. that is what sets him apart from all others. sure, he still has some deficiencies, but i'll take him till the cows come home. you can throw technical jargon and consistency issues around all you want. dudes a winner. been doin it all his life on all kinds of different teams from high school through college and into the pros. cant believe people whine about him. dude doesnt win a superbowl and hes no longer an great QB. they don't say that about Manning or Brady. They both have lost a Superbowl. Happens to the BEST of them. Shouldnt be said about Ben. Very unfair. especially when it comes from "Steelers fans". Sheesh!

I hope people understand that these years are glory years for us. just like the 70's. Live it up people and quit 8itchin!

I must agree. Ben is Ben. When Ben says he knows how to play one way, well that's because he isn't Brady or Manning. He plays within his realm of ability which is extending plays and winning big games. What Ben lacks in quick read ability, he makes up for with ice in his veins and ability to elude a pass rush. This O lives and dies by his arm. Many times it works out, other times it doesn't. He is the best Steeler QB since I was a fan in the early 80's. I wouldn't take any other QB over him.

Scalaid6
03-08-2011, 03:45 PM
When we needed Ben to PASS in the AFCCG what happened?

They were down 24-3 and were on the verge of cutting it to seven points before Cowher decided to run the ball again and then kick a 20 yard field goal down 31-17.

That game is exactly what I and others talk about. For most of the first half they did what you clowns wanted and tried to run the ball.

Fell behind 17-3 doing it.


The guy you BASH (Manning) was down to those same Pats and led an AMAZING 4th quarter comeback to oust them in the playoffs.

WORTH NOTING

Crash
03-08-2011, 03:48 PM
And Peyton Manning lost a first ballot HOF'er and yet you suggest the talent in 1998 Colts is compareable to 2004 Steelers?

Psssssst.....Marshall Faulk was on the 1998 Colts.

Scalaid6
03-08-2011, 03:51 PM
And Peyton Manning lost a first ballot HOF'er and yet you suggest the talent in 1998 Colts is compareable to 2004 Steelers?

Psssssst.....Marshall Faulk was on the 1998 Colts.

But he WASNT on the other years you posted. Funny you failed to admit that OH DECEPTIVE ONE

Scalaid6
03-08-2011, 03:52 PM
How come Crash ISNT listing Rivers' talent??

DO YOU KNOW WHY??

LOL

Blockhead
03-08-2011, 03:53 PM
They were down 24-3 and were on the verge of cutting it to seven points before Cowher decided to run the ball again and then kick a 20 yard field goal down 31-17.

That game is exactly what I and others talk about. For most of the first half they did what you clowns wanted and tried to run the ball.

Fell behind 17-3 doing it.
Ben in the first half completed 5 of 10 passes, had 0 td's, 2 int's and 77 yards with a QB rating of 36.2.

His first pass of the game was intercepted. He was clearly rattled by yet another big game. Passing more would have just ended the game sooner.

Scalaid6
03-08-2011, 03:54 PM
Rivers doesnt have a Mendenhall

No, he only had sure fire HOF LT for four seasons and still couldn't win a ring.

Btw, Ben won two rings WITHOUT Mendenhall.

This is too easy, make an EFFORT.


Why did I KNOW that was coming? WHEN LT was there he was a GAME MANAGER but didnt have the defense that Ben had. List Rivers offensive help and I'll list Bens

Plaxico Burress, Jerome Bettis, Willie Parker, Rashard Mendenhall, Heath Miller, Mike Wallace, Hines Ward, Santonio Holmes, Alan Fanaca, Maurkice Pouncey. Not to mention Joey Porter, James Harrison, Lawrence Timmons, Ike Taylor, Troy Polamalu, Casey Hampton, Aaron Smith, James Farrior and Lamarr Woodley

Now you list Rivers'

I'LL WAIT


STILL WAITING

Crash
03-08-2011, 03:54 PM
The guy you BASH (Manning) was down to those same Pats and led an AMAZING 4th quarter comeback to oust them in the playoffs.

27 47 57.4% 349 1 1 79.1

A 79.1 rating, and Peyton Manning was "amazing".

Jeff Saturday falls on a fumble for a tying TD and yet "Manning" led the 4th quarter comeback.

If you say so.

Crash
03-08-2011, 04:00 PM
But he WASNT on the other years you posted.

Yeah they only got Edge with a top 4 pick the next season who led the NFL in rushing his first two years.

Only Peyton Manning could have an two time NFL rushing leader replace Marshall Faulk and yet still not have talent "around him".

Scalaid6
03-08-2011, 04:02 PM
The guy you BASH (Manning) was down to those same Pats and led an AMAZING 4th quarter comeback to oust them in the playoffs.

27 47 57.4% 349 1 1 79.1

A 79.1 rating, and Peyton Manning was "amazing".

Jeff Saturday falls on a fumble for a tying TD and yet "Manning" led the 4th quarter comeback.

If you say so.

Sounds like A LOT of Bens wins most notably the AFCCG vs Jets (33 rating)

Steelworth
03-08-2011, 04:02 PM
Elite- meaning quarterbacks who consistently play at an efficient level

If that's your metric for being elite, then Ben is most certainly elite.

All-time:

8th in passer rating (92.5)
5th in YPA (8.04)
12th in completion % (63.07)
4th in career winning % (.704)

And he's had a passer rating of 95 or higher in 5 of 7 seasons.

You don't get those career numbers by being inconsistent or inefficient.

Blockhead
03-08-2011, 04:02 PM
But he WASNT on the other years you posted.

Yeah they only got Edge with a top 4 pick the next season who led the NFL in rushing his first two years.

Only Peyton Manning could have an two time NFL rushing leader replace Marshall Faulk and yet still not have talent "around him".

If Ben would spend some time with Peyton and be a student of a game like Peyton, he may be as good as Peyton or at least a lot closer.

Scalaid6
03-08-2011, 04:03 PM
But he WASNT on the other years you posted.

Yeah they only got Edge with a top 4 pick the next season who led the NFL in rushing his first two years.

Only Peyton Manning could have an two time NFL rushing leader replace Marshall Faulk and yet still not have talent "around him".


Who is better Bettis or Edge?

PLEASE LIST HIS TALENT

WHY ARE YOU HESITANT?

LOL

Scalaid6
03-08-2011, 04:04 PM
Elite- meaning quarterbacks who consistently play at an efficient level

If that's your metric for being elite, then Ben is most certainly elite.

All-time:

8th in passer rating (92.5)
5th in YPA (8.04)
12th in completion % (63.07)
4th in career winning % (.704)

And he's had a passer rating of 95 or higher in 5 of 7 seasons.

You don't get those career numbers by being inconsistent or inefficient.

SEVEN SEASONS ARE A SMALL SAMPLE SIZE BUT YOU GO WITH THAT OH DESPERATE ONE

LOL

Blockhead
03-08-2011, 04:06 PM
But he WASNT on the other years you posted.

Yeah they only got Edge with a top 4 pick the next season who led the NFL in rushing his first two years.

Only Peyton Manning could have an two time NFL rushing leader replace Marshall Faulk and yet still not have talent "around him".

Nobody is debating that running in Indy, where defenses are scared by the QB and play the pass, is easier than in Pittsburgh, where teams don't play the pass nearly as much and very little early on in Ben's career.

Everybody knows that as fact but good to see you agreeing. One step at a time.

Crash
03-08-2011, 04:06 PM
I must agree. Ben is Ben. When Ben says he knows how to play one way, well that's because he isn't Brady or Manning.

Tomlin wanted Ben to play cautious and then he would leave him in the game (they were blowing a team out).

Ben then told Tomlin he only knows how to play one way, which if you follow Ben, is 100% balls out every snap.

Scalaid6
03-08-2011, 04:09 PM
I must agree. Ben is Ben. When Ben says he knows how to play one way, well that's because he isn't Brady or Manning.

Tomlin wanted Ben to play cautious and then he would leave him in the game (they were blowing a team out).

Ben then told Tomlin he only knows how to play one way, which if you follow Ben, is 100% balls out every snap.

No Tomlin was talking to him IN REGARDS TO GETTING RID OF THE BALL AND TAKING UNNECESSARY HITS

Quit lying sir

Shawn
03-08-2011, 04:10 PM
There is no question in my mind that I would rather have Edgerin James than Bettis. I'm sure I will be in the minority of Steeler fans but James was a well rounded back who could not only run but catch. I mean in 2000 the guy had 1700+ yards rushing and over 600 receiving with 60 catches. Only in 2001-2 did the guy have "down years" because of injury. It wasn't until he went to the Cardinals that his play began to drop off. Manning has certainly been surrounded by weapons for much of his career.

Me personally, I'm much more impressed with Brady who didn't always have talent around him. But, then you have to take in account spygate and how much of that played a role. I don't think any of us know. Without spygate, IMO Brady would go down as a top 3 QB ever. With spygate, his career will always have a bit of taint to it.

Crash
03-08-2011, 04:10 PM
One step at a time.

Is that what they tell you in rehab?

If teams didn't play the pass early in Ben's career then they don't watch film. Because thats what we did with Ben. Pass early, run late.

You know this troll. Why must you come back here and troll this board? Go back to StillerNation.

Oviedo
03-08-2011, 04:10 PM
Elite- meaning quarterbacks who consistently play at an efficient level

If that's your metric for being elite, then Ben is most certainly elite.

All-time:

8th in passer rating (92.5)
5th in YPA (8.04)
12th in completion % (63.07)
4th in career winning % (.704)

And he's had a passer rating of 95 or higher in 5 of 7 seasons.

You don't get those career numbers by being inconsistent or inefficient.

SEVEN SEASONS ARE A SMALL SAMPLE SIZE BUT YOU GO WITH THAT OH DESPERATE ONE

LOL

Seven SEASONS are a "small sample size" yet you hang your claims of Ben's ineffectiveness on FOUR CONSECUTIVE GAMES. Contradict yourself much???

Blockhead
03-08-2011, 04:12 PM
There is no question in my mind that I would rather have Edgerin James than Bettis. I'm sure I will be in the minority of Steeler fans but James was a well rounded back who could not only run but catch. I mean in 2000 the guy had 1700+ yards rushing and over 600 receiving with 60 catches. Only in 2001-2 did the guy have "down years" because of injury. It wasn't until he went to the Cardinals that his play began to drop off. Manning has certainly been surrounded by weapons for much of his career.

Me personally, I'm much more impressed with Brady who didn't always have talent around him. But, then you have to take in account spygate and how much of that played a role. I don't think any of us know. Without spygate, IMO Brady would go down as a top 3 QB ever. With spygate, his career will always have a bit of taint to it.
Brady wins another one and he easily goes down as one of the best ever.

Scalaid6
03-08-2011, 04:13 PM
There is no question in my mind that I would rather have Edgerin James than Bettis. I'm sure I will be in the minority of Steeler fans but James was a well rounded back who could not only run but catch. I mean in 2000 the guy had 1700+ yards rushing and over 600 receiving with 60 catches. Only in 2001-2 did the guy have "down years" because of injury. It wasn't until he went to the Cardinals that his play began to drop off. Manning has certainly been surrounded by weapons for much of his career.

Me personally, I'm much more impressed with Brady who didn't always have talent around him. But, then you have to take in account spygate and how much of that played a role. I don't think any of us know. Without spygate, IMO Brady would go down as a top 3 QB ever. With spygate, his career will always have a bit of taint to it.


He had those yards due to MANNING. How did he do once he left Manning?
Do tell.
I agree Manning has had weapons BUT NOT AS MANY AS BEN.

If I am wrong then please list Mannings talent like I did for Ben

Shawn
03-08-2011, 04:13 PM
This should clear a few things up.

Roethlisberger – Montana Comparison – first 7 years as a Starter
All Stats shown are compiled from both Quarterbacks first 7 years as a starter. Montana 1980-86 seasons. Roethlisberger 2004-2010 Seasons.

Montana 21.402 passing yards
Roeth 22,502 passing yards

Montana 2855 passing attempts
Roeth 2800 passing attempts

Montana 7.5 yards per attempt
Roeth 8.0 yards per attempt

Montana 140 TD passes
Roeth 141 TD passes

Montana 5.0 TD Percentage (percentage of passes that go for Touchdowns)
Roeth 5.1%

Montana 1805 Completions
Roeth 1766 Completions

Montana 63% Completion percentage
Roeth 63% Completion percentage

Montana 66% win percentage
Roeth 68% win percentage

Montana 2.7 Interception percentage
Roeth 3.1 Interception percentage

Montana 11.8 Yards per Completion
Roeth 12.7 Yards per Completion

Montana ‘s team averaged 4.1 Yards per rush
Roeth’s team averaged 4.1 yards per rush

Montana’s team averaged 31 rushing attempts per game
Roeth’s team averaged 31 rushing attempts per game

Montana’s team defense allowed 477 points in the two SB seasons in his first 6 years
Roeth’s team defense allowed 481 points in the two SB seasons in his first 6 years

Montana 13 4th Quarter comebacks in first 6 years as a starter
Roeth 19 4th quarter comebacks in first 6 years as starter

Montana 12 game winning drives in first 6 years as starter
Roeth 25 game winning drives in first 6 years as starter

Postseason Play through first 7 seasons

Montana 10 post season games
Roeth 12 post season games

Montana 7-3 Record in Post season
Roeth 10-2 Record in Post season

Montana 0-3 record on the road in Post season
Roeth 3-0 record on the road in Post season

Montana 2562 Passing yards in Post season
Roeth 2598 Passing yards in Post season

Montana 59.9% completion percentage in post season
Roeth 61.9% completion percentage in post season

Montana 7.6 Yards per attempt in Post season
Roeth 7.9 Yards per attempt in Post season

Montana 202 Completions in post season
Roeth 201 completions in post season

Montana 17-14 TD to INT ratio in Post season
Roeth 17-14 TD to INT ratio in Post season


Montan’s defense allowed 21.1 points per game
Roeth’s defense allowed 21.5 points per game

Montana’s team averaged 22.5 points per game in the post season
Roeth’s team averaged 27 points per game in the post season

Blockhead
03-08-2011, 04:13 PM
One step at a time.

Is that what they tell you in rehab?

If teams didn't play the pass early in Ben's career then they don't watch film. Because thats what we did with Ben. Pass early, run late.

You know this troll. Why must you come back here and troll this board? Go back to StillerNation.
Focus!

There is no debating teams played the run more than the pass in Ben's first two years. That's why the passing surprised them so much and was open so much.

Crash
03-08-2011, 04:14 PM
SEVEN SEASONS ARE A SMALL SAMPLE SIZE BUT YOU GO WITH THAT OH DESPERATE ONE

Know how many times Peyton had a passer rating over 95 in his first seven years?

Twice.

Scalaid6
03-08-2011, 04:15 PM
Elite- meaning quarterbacks who consistently play at an efficient level

If that's your metric for being elite, then Ben is most certainly elite.

All-time:

8th in passer rating (92.5)
5th in YPA (8.04)
12th in completion % (63.07)
4th in career winning % (.704)

And he's had a passer rating of 95 or higher in 5 of 7 seasons.

You don't get those career numbers by being inconsistent or inefficient.

SEVEN SEASONS ARE A SMALL SAMPLE SIZE BUT YOU GO WITH THAT OH DESPERATE ONE

LOL

Seven SEASONS are a "small sample size" yet you hang your claims of Ben's ineffectiveness on FOUR CONSECUTIVE GAMES. Contradict yourself much???


NO contradicton at all. The post was in regard to ALLL TIME NUMBERS (7 years is not ALL TIME WORTHY)

I stated the four games to substantiate the fact that he is inconsistent and your lack or inability to list those games is PROOF that I am right but I already knew that


LOL

Scalaid6
03-08-2011, 04:17 PM
SEVEN SEASONS ARE A SMALL SAMPLE SIZE BUT YOU GO WITH THAT OH DESPERATE ONE

Know how many times Peyton had a passer rating over 95 in his first seven years?

Twice.

If Manning is on the Steelers Ben is traded or ON THE BENCH

He is better. Period

Shawn
03-08-2011, 04:17 PM
There is no question in my mind that I would rather have Edgerin James than Bettis. I'm sure I will be in the minority of Steeler fans but James was a well rounded back who could not only run but catch. I mean in 2000 the guy had 1700+ yards rushing and over 600 receiving with 60 catches. Only in 2001-2 did the guy have "down years" because of injury. It wasn't until he went to the Cardinals that his play began to drop off. Manning has certainly been surrounded by weapons for much of his career.

Me personally, I'm much more impressed with Brady who didn't always have talent around him. But, then you have to take in account spygate and how much of that played a role. I don't think any of us know. Without spygate, IMO Brady would go down as a top 3 QB ever. With spygate, his career will always have a bit of taint to it.


He had those yards due to MANNING. How did he do once he left Manning?
Do tell.
I agree Manning has had weapons BUT NOT AS MANY AS BEN.

If I am wrong then please list Mannings talent like I did for Ben

I personally don't think Bettis would have had the career James had in Indianapolis. Bettis couldn't catch. He didn't have speed. His stats come from many many carries, and wearing down D's. I can't count how many times he got shut down most of the game only to beat up on a D too tired to tackle his big body. James, was an elite back on every level. He was well rounded. No doubt Manning helped James...but James also helped Manning. Isn't that how it's supposed to work?

Blockhead
03-08-2011, 04:19 PM
James is almost as overrated as Emmitt Smith. Neither ran against constant 8 man fronts, like Bettis.

Dominic Rhodes had success with Peyton under center. Teams play the pass, not the run in Indy.

Steelworth
03-08-2011, 04:21 PM
The DEFENSE got them to the SB in 08 and the RUNNING GAME IN 05 (You attribute that to Ben? WOW)

The running game in 2005 is not what got them to the Super Bowl, this is a serious misconception by quite a few people. The running game in those playoffs only yielded 3.2 yards per carry.

Ben threw so efficiently in those playoffs though that it may be one of the best postseason stretches for any QB in NFL history. 68% passes completed, 7-1 TDs to INT, 123 passer rating and 9.5 YPA. Those are insane numbers, especially for a 2nd year player. Ben's arm got them to the Super Bowl and the team won the Super Bowl. He carried them there, they carried him to his first SB win.

Shawn
03-08-2011, 04:21 PM
Here is a terrific article I read awhile back...

Give me Roethlisberger over Peyton Manning
It is undoubtedly a very small group that would take Pittsburgh Steelers quarterback Ben Roethlisberger to lead their team instead of Peyton Manning of the Indianapolis Colts. But even if you do fall into that select group, there is a good chance that you won’t admit it.

After all, admitting such a thing publicly would only invite ridicule. If you live in southwestern Pennsylvania, as I do, you would be considered a homer to state such an opinion. Your credibility would immediately be attacked. You could be chastised, mocked, publicly humiliated, and perhaps even spat upon for considering such argument (please don't spit on me Brian lol).

Yet, through it all, the facts are clearly on your side. The following is a question-and-answer exchange I recently had with a Manning backer on this subject. Enjoy!

Manning Backer: You only want to talk about Ben having more rings up to this point. That doesn’t tell the whole story. Ben having more rings has nothing to do with him being better than Manning. Can’t you see this?

Dutch Wydo: Roethlisberger has one more Super Bowl victory up to this point because he out-performed Manning at Indianapolis in the 2005 playoffs. Roethlisberger came out throwing and put two early touchdowns on the board and staked his team to what turned out to be an insurmountable 14-point lead. That was the difference in the game and the reason why Ben has one more ring up to this point.

MB: Ok, How many rings do you think Manning would have if he was the quarterback of the Steelers this decade?

DW: Just one. I don’t believe he could have won a Super Bowl behind the current offensive line of the Steelers.

MB: Cmon! Don’t you see that Ben has been in a better situation in Pittsburgh?

DW: Incorrect. Roethlisberger won a Super Bowl with an undrafted free agent at running back. He was throwing to guys like Cedric Wilson and Antwaan Randle El. He even had a rookie Tight End starting on that ‘05 team. This is hardly Edgerrin James, Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, and Dallas Clark.

MB: I’m sorry, but you need to consider everything. Just look at the stats. What do the stats tell you?

DW: I’m sorry, but maybe you have not considered everything. What if Roethlisberger had played his home games in a dome? Ben has played seven indoor games and boasts a passer rating of 113. He has 14 TD passes against only five interceptions. Roethlisberger has completed 68% of his throws indoors at a majestic 9.4 yards per attempt. Unfortunately, he is stuck playing at Heinz Field and has to endure mud, rain, snow, and wind, along with a revolving set of receivers throughout most of his career. Yeah, great situation! Now, let me ask you a question. If you take both quarterbacks and have to choose one to play a road game, which one would you take?

MB: I think the answer is obvious. I’m taking Manning, as he is superior.

DW: Really? What evidence do you have to support that? Roethlisberger has a 91.6 career road passer rating. Manning has a 91.6 career road passer rating. Your perception that Manning is so superior simply does not equal reality, my friend.

MB: You just don’t get it do you? Ben has had a great running game in place for most of his career.

DW: Edgerrin James rushed for more than 1,500 yards four times throughout his time with Manning and the Colts. Roethlisberger has never had a 1,500-yard running back.

MB: Defense, Defense, Defense, Dutch. Peyton would have won at least three Super Bowls with that Steeler defense. C’mon! Can’t you see this?

DW: In eight post season losses, Manning’s offense averaged just 13 points per game. As to how many points his offense scored in each loss, here is the list: 16, 17, 0, 14, 3, 18, 24, 17. Now ask yourself a question. Was his defense really the problem? Even in two playoff losses to the Patriots and Jaguars, Roethlisberger’s offense was able to put 29 and 27 points, respectively, on the scoreboard.

MB: So you are trying to say that Ben is the reason they won their playoff games?

DW: Roethlisberger has the highest postseason third-down passer rating of 121.5 last five years. Should I credit bad word LeBeau for that? Besides, before this postseason started, Roethlisberger had a better passer rating, more yards per attempt, and a higher completion percentage in the postseason than Manning. You clearly underrate Roethlisberger.

MB: Are you trying to say the Colts defense has been better than the Steelers defense?

DW: No. But Indianapolis’ defense has been the beneficiary of 210 turnovers since 2003. The Steelers defense has collected 190. The Colts are 16-3 over last three seasons when their defense gets two turnovers. The Steelers are 10-4. Getting defensive turnovers can be quite helpful to a quarterback as they will get short fields to work with and convert them into quick scores. This year, the New Orleans Saints averaged 11 points per game off turnovers. The Steelers cornerbacks didn’t have an interception until the final week of the regular season. In fact, the Steelers offense this season projected to score 23.8 points per game based on yards and turnover differential. A lack of defensive turnovers and consistently poor special teams held back a Steeler offense averaging 6.2 yards per play more than anything else.

MB: Go ask NFL coaches who they would rather have, Peyton Manning or Ben.

DW: Go ask NFL coaches who they would rather have, Jeff Hartwig or Jeff Saturday?

MB: Dutch, look at how Pierre Garcon has played at Wide Receiver this season for the Colts. Don’t you see that is because of Peyton Manning? Peyton Manning makes wide receivers.

DW: Considering the success that Steelers receiver Mike Wallace had this year, the success that Heath Miller had as a rookie, not to mention the performance Santonio Holmes had the last half of 2006. I guess that means Roethlisberger makes wide receivers, too. Also note that Nate Washington averaged 16 yards per reception with Roethlisberger as his quarterback. The averaged fell to twelve per reception this season with the Tennessee Titans. Again, Roethlisberger makes wide receivers.

MB: I think most would agree that Manning is perhaps the greatest quarterback of all time.

DW: To be the best of all time, then you would have to project to be the best in previous generations. Considering that Manning’s offense is built around great timing with his receivers, I’m not convinced he would have able to achieve so much success, say, in the 1970s when his receivers would have had their heads taken off and he was forced to scramble around and make plays. That is not his game. In fact, it wasn’t until Colts General Manager Bill Polian convinced the NFL in 2004 to strictly enforce the five-yard chuck rule so that his boy could get through the playoffs. Roethlisberger is great right now and would have been great in the 1960s or 1970s.

MB: Look at how Manning attacked the Jets backup cornerback when they lost their starting corner to injury. Manning is a student of the game.

DW: Of course. Manning is the only quarterback in the NFL that has the wisdom to immediately go after a back up corner who just came into the game. He’s a genius.

The case for Ben Roethlisberger being elite:
We are led to believe there are two, and only two elite QB’s in the NFL today, Peyton Manning and Tom Brady. Let’s start with Brady vs. Ben. Believe it or not, Ben Roethlisberger’s first 5 NFL season compare favorably with what Tom Brady accomplished during his first 5 seasons. Let’s take a closer look:
Ben Roethlisberger, first 5 years:
14,974 yards 62.4 comp% 101 TD, 69 INT, 7.9 YPA, 89.4 QB Rating, 51 wins, 2 SB's
Tom Brady, first 5 years:
13925 yards, 61.5 comp%, 97 TD, 52 INT, 6.9 YPA, 87.4 QB Rating, 48 wins, 3 SB's
As you can see Roethlisberger bests Brady in wins, completion %, YPA, QB rating, and TD passes. After 5 years there was no doubt that Tom Brady was elite, at least that is what the media told us. Ben Roethlisberger is lucky to get mentioned as a top 5 QB by some, let alone elite. Now let’s wrap our heads around what each player did in the playoffs to win his first 2 Super Bowls. Here is a stat line from each playoff game for the two player’s first two runs to the big game.
Tom Brady
21 - 41 201 yards 1 TD 0 INT 4.9 YPA 51.2% 73.3 rating
22 - 37 237 yards 1 TD 1 INT 6.4 YPA 59.5% 76.1 rating
32 - 48 354 yards 3 TD 1 INT 7.4 YPA 66.7% 100.5 rating
32 - 52 312 yards 0 TD 1 INT 6.0 YPA 61.5% 70.4 rating
12 - 18 115 yards 0 TD 0 INT 6.4 YPA 66.7% 84.3 rating
16 - 27 145 yards 1 TD 0 INT 5.4 YPA 59.3% 86.2 rating
Totals: 227 YPG 6 TD 3 INT 6.1 YPA 60.5% 81.3 rating
Ben Roethlisberger
14 - 19 208 yards 3 TD 0 INT 10.9 YPA 73.7% 148.7 rating
14 - 24 197 yards 2 TD 1 INT 8.2 YPA 58.3% 95.3 rating
21 - 29 275 yards 2 TD 0 INT 9.5 YPA 72.4% 124.9 rating
9 - 21 123 yards 0 TD 2 INT 5.9 YPA 42.9% 22.6 rating
17 - 26 181 yards 1 TD 0 INT 7.0 YPA 65.4% 98.4 rating
16 - 33 255 yards 1 TD 0 INT 7.7 YPA 48.5% 84.8 rating
21 - 30 256 yards 1 TD 1 INT 8.5 YPA 70.0% 93.2 rating
Totals: 213 YPG 10 TD 4 INT 8.2 YPA 61.5% 96.6 rating
The conventional wisdom (i.e. what the media has told us) is that Roethlisberger was carried by a great defense and running game, while the infallible Tom Brady was the main factor behind the Patriots success. As we can see here Roethlisberger had more TD passes, a much better YPA, a better completions % and far superior QB rating on his two Super Bowl runs than Tom Brady had on his first two runs. In fact on his first run to a SB title at age 23 Roethlisberger threw more TD passes (7) than Tom Brady did in his first two runs to the SB combined (6). Roethlisberger had a whopping 5 out of 7 games with a QB rating over 93. We have heard time and time again “yeah but, Ben played awful in SBXL”. There is some truth to that, he did play like a 23 year old full of nerves in that game, but the three road games he won on the strength of his passing game often gets over-looked. Tom Brady was much the game manager on his first SB run, throwing 1 TD and 1 INT in three games combined, and he threw for less than 150 total yards in 2 of those 3 games. This is not to discredit Tom Brady as both players have built great legacies, but is more of an attempt to shine the light on the fact that Roethlisberger is at least Tom Brady’s equal at a similar point in his career, yet Big Ben has gotten 1/10th the credit by that Brady has received.
The other elite QB in the game, Peyton Manning, has had his noted struggles in playoffs. In his 9th year in the league Manning finally won a championship. In the playoffs that year the great Peyton Manning threw 3 TD’s and 7 INT’s. His QB ratings in the four games: 71, 39, 79, and 81. In his 2nd year Ben Roethlisberger won four road playoff games on the road to his first title. His QB ratings in those games: 149, 95, 125, 22. Roethlisberger was crucified nationally for playing poorly in the SB, yet Manning was widely praised for carrying his team to a SB win. Here are the career playoff stats for each:
Ben Roethlisberger - 8 wins, 2 losses (5 year career) 2 SB wins
172 - 278 (61.9%) 2239 yards 15 TD - 12 INT 8.1 YPA 87.2 QB rating
&
Peyton Manning 7 wins, 8 losses (11 year career) 1 SB win
348 - 565 (61.6%) 4207 yards 22 TD - 17 INT 7.4 YPA 84.9 QB rating

Final word on Roethlisberger:
Roethlisberger leads the NFL over the last 5 years in game winning 4th qtr drives (18), went an unprecedented 13-0 as a rookie starter, and has more wins (51) than any QB in history over his first 5 years in the NFL, 2 SB titles, a career YPA near 8.0, and a QB rating near 90. We just witnessed Ben Roethlisberger engineer the greatest drive in SB history. An 88 yard drive, backed up to his own 12 yard line facing a 1st and 20 with just over 2:00 remaining in the game. Big Ben accounted for all 88 yards. Tom Brady built his legend by driving his team into FG range to win the SB. Roethlisberger just one-upped him with a game winning drive that made Joe Montana jealous. We’ll see if the media finally recognizes Ben Roethlisberger as a QB on elite level of Brady and Manning, or if they continue to dismiss him as some sort of quirky “game manager” for another year. The historical player who is the best comparison for Ben Roethlisberger is John Elway, a player widely considered one of the 5 best to ever play the game. Here is how they stack up after 5 years in the NFL:
Ben Roethlisberger
14,974 yards 62.4 comp% 101 TD, 69 INT, 7.9 YPA, 89.4 QB Rating, 51 wins, 2 SB wins
John Elway
14,835 yards 54.1 comp% 85 TD, 77 INT, 6.8 YPA, 74.9 QB rating, 46 wins, 0 SB wins
Conclusion:
There are four elite quarterbacks in the NFL today; Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Ben Roethlisberger, and Kurt Warner. Both Warner and Roethlisberger deserve to be mentioned in the same breath as Brady and Manning, and both are building a great case for Canton when their careers wind down. Their combined career 16-5 playoff records are no accident. These are two of the most clutch QB’s in the NFL as we witnessed both men led potential game winning touchdown drives in the Super Bowl this past Sunday in the late 4th quarter. Unfortunately for Warner, he was out-dueled for the 2nd time in his career by another elite QB at the end of a Super Bowl.

Oviedo
03-08-2011, 04:21 PM
Elite- meaning quarterbacks who consistently play at an efficient level

If that's your metric for being elite, then Ben is most certainly elite.

All-time:

8th in passer rating (92.5)
5th in YPA (8.04)
12th in completion % (63.07)
4th in career winning % (.704)

And he's had a passer rating of 95 or higher in 5 of 7 seasons.

You don't get those career numbers by being inconsistent or inefficient.

SEVEN SEASONS ARE A SMALL SAMPLE SIZE BUT YOU GO WITH THAT OH DESPERATE ONE

LOL

Seven SEASONS are a "small sample size" yet you hang your claims of Ben's ineffectiveness on FOUR CONSECUTIVE GAMES. Contradict yourself much???


NO contradicton at all. The post was in regard to ALLL TIME NUMBERS (7 years is not ALL TIME WORTHY)

I stated the four games to substantiate the fact that he is inconsistent and your lack or inability to list those games is PROOF that I am right but I already knew that


LOL

Keep grasping for those straws. You are providing great comic relief which is at least something since you lost your argument several pages ago.

Still waiting for your empirical metrics to measure Ben against that support your anti-Ben bias. Shawn just provided a direct comparison with one of the generally accepted best QBs ever and a Hall of Fame player but you seem to be conveniently ignoring that post.

Scalaid6
03-08-2011, 04:22 PM
There is no question in my mind that I would rather have Edgerin James than Bettis. I'm sure I will be in the minority of Steeler fans but James was a well rounded back who could not only run but catch. I mean in 2000 the guy had 1700+ yards rushing and over 600 receiving with 60 catches. Only in 2001-2 did the guy have "down years" because of injury. It wasn't until he went to the Cardinals that his play began to drop off. Manning has certainly been surrounded by weapons for much of his career.

Me personally, I'm much more impressed with Brady who didn't always have talent around him. But, then you have to take in account spygate and how much of that played a role. I don't think any of us know. Without spygate, IMO Brady would go down as a top 3 QB ever. With spygate, his career will always have a bit of taint to it.


He had those yards due to MANNING. How did he do once he left Manning?
Do tell.
I agree Manning has had weapons BUT NOT AS MANY AS BEN.

If I am wrong then please list Mannings talent like I did for Ben

I personally don't think Bettis would have had the career James had in Indianapolis. Bettis couldn't catch. He didn't have speed. His stats come from many many carries, and wearing down D's. I can't count how many times he got shut down most of the game only to beat up on a D too tired to tackle his big body. James, was an elite back on every level. He was well rounded. No doubt Manning helped James...but James also helped Manning. Isn't that how it's supposed to work?


Bettib is being considered for the HOF. James is not.

Steelworth
03-08-2011, 04:24 PM
Elite- meaning quarterbacks who consistently play at an efficient level

If that's your metric for being elite, then Ben is most certainly elite.

All-time:

8th in passer rating (92.5)
5th in YPA (8.04)
12th in completion % (63.07)
4th in career winning % (.704)

And he's had a passer rating of 95 or higher in 5 of 7 seasons.

You don't get those career numbers by being inconsistent or inefficient.

SEVEN SEASONS ARE A SMALL SAMPLE SIZE BUT YOU GO WITH THAT OH DESPERATE ONE

LOL

He's only been in the league 7 seasons and you spoke about consistency and efficiency, so I gave you the example.

Shawn
03-08-2011, 04:26 PM
James is almost as overrated as Emmitt Smith. Neither ran against constant 8 man fronts, like Bettis.

Dominic Rhodes had success with Peyton under center. Teams play the pass, not the run in Indy.

IMO Bettis is one of the most overrated backs in the history of the game. He lacked speed, couldn't catch a ball and many of his yards were late in the game after beating on opposing D's for 3 quarters. If we are speaking about pure running ability I think between James and Bettis it's a wash. But, when you add James ability to be a threat in the passing game...it's a no contest.

James had the speed, power and the ability to catch.

Shoot, I would take Mendenhall anyday over Bettis.

Blockhead
03-08-2011, 04:29 PM
James is almost as overrated as Emmitt Smith. Neither ran against constant 8 man fronts, like Bettis.

Dominic Rhodes had success with Peyton under center. Teams play the pass, not the run in Indy.

IMO Bettis is one of the most overrated backs in the history of the game. He lacked speed, couldn't catch a ball and many of his yards were late in the game after beating on opposing D's for 3 quarters. If we are speaking about pure running ability I think between James and Bettis it's a wash. But, when you add James ability to be a threat in the passing game...it's a no contest.

James had the speed, power and the ability to catch.

Shoot, I would take Mendenhall anyday over Bettis.
Bettis overrated? He routinely faced 8 man fronts and not only beat them, obliterated them so far into submission they didn't even want to tackle him in the fourth quarter.

Nobody is suggesting he was the fastest or quickest but he was dominate. They knew it was coming, played it with constant 8 man fronts and still couldn't stop it.

James has 4-5 yards before the defense even reacted to the run. Teams played and feared the pass with Peyton Manning under center.

Shawn
03-08-2011, 04:29 PM
There is no question in my mind that I would rather have Edgerin James than Bettis. I'm sure I will be in the minority of Steeler fans but James was a well rounded back who could not only run but catch. I mean in 2000 the guy had 1700+ yards rushing and over 600 receiving with 60 catches. Only in 2001-2 did the guy have "down years" because of injury. It wasn't until he went to the Cardinals that his play began to drop off. Manning has certainly been surrounded by weapons for much of his career.

Me personally, I'm much more impressed with Brady who didn't always have talent around him. But, then you have to take in account spygate and how much of that played a role. I don't think any of us know. Without spygate, IMO Brady would go down as a top 3 QB ever. With spygate, his career will always have a bit of taint to it.


He had those yards due to MANNING. How did he do once he left Manning?
Do tell.
I agree Manning has had weapons BUT NOT AS MANY AS BEN.

If I am wrong then please list Mannings talent like I did for Ben

I personally don't think Bettis would have had the career James had in Indianapolis. Bettis couldn't catch. He didn't have speed. His stats come from many many carries, and wearing down D's. I can't count how many times he got shut down most of the game only to beat up on a D too tired to tackle his big body. James, was an elite back on every level. He was well rounded. No doubt Manning helped James...but James also helped Manning. Isn't that how it's supposed to work?


Bettib is being considered for the HOF. James is not.

James career ended in 2009. How many guys who retired in 2009 are being considered for the HoF? Last I checked James was 15th all time in career yards from scrimmage. I think he will get the nod when his time comes.

BTW if Bettis is elected to the HoF he will join Riggins as the RB with the lowest ypc average in the hall.

Blockhead
03-08-2011, 04:30 PM
James career ended in 2009. How many guys who retired in 2009 are being considered for the HoF? Last I checked James was 15th all time in career yards from scrimmage. I think he will get the nod when his time comes.
I'll take that bet.

Steelworth
03-08-2011, 04:32 PM
Elite- meaning quarterbacks who consistently play at an efficient level

If that's your metric for being elite, then Ben is most certainly elite.

All-time:

8th in passer rating (92.5)
5th in YPA (8.04)
12th in completion % (63.07)
4th in career winning % (.704)

And he's had a passer rating of 95 or higher in 5 of 7 seasons.

You don't get those career numbers by being inconsistent or inefficient.

SEVEN SEASONS ARE A SMALL SAMPLE SIZE BUT YOU GO WITH THAT OH DESPERATE ONE

LOL

Seven SEASONS are a "small sample size" yet you hang your claims of Ben's ineffectiveness on FOUR CONSECUTIVE GAMES. Contradict yourself much???


NO contradicton at all. The post was in regard to ALL TIME NUMBERS (7 years is not ALL TIME WORTHY)

I stated the four games to substantiate the fact that he is inconsistent and your lack or inability to list those games is PROOF that I am right but I already knew that


LOL

Sounds like you may be a little slow. The numbers I posted are "efficiency" numbers, not an accumulation of numbers over a career such as total yards or TDs. Read it again, it's an example of consistency and efficiency over a career, and I used all-time to show how significantly high they actually are. He's been in the league 7 seasons, yes. Good job.

Crash
03-08-2011, 04:34 PM
Edge had 1100 yards his first season without Peyton and 1200 the second season without him.

Certainly Peyton's not going to get the credit because Edge began to wear down in season TEN, correct?

siss
03-08-2011, 04:35 PM
Wasn't there a recent article about Flozel Adams where he talked about how he admired Ben from afar, but since coming here he got a great appreciation for how Ben GOES ABOUT THE GAME?

You want to fault Ben for a poor work ethic, and there is some truth to it. He wasn't always the best. He has admitted that much. I think Arians said that he wanted Ben's work ethic to catch up to his passion and love of the game. But at 22, 23, 24, 25 who can honestly say they had a great work ethic?

Ben just had his most consistent year in the league after 7 years at 28. He still has some time left in the league. He does things better now with 7 years under his belt than he did with 2 years under his belt. And I'm sure he will do things better with 12 years in the league than with 7.

grotonsteel
03-08-2011, 04:36 PM
So Rivers should have won SB according to your logic?? He has all the POINTS and PRODUCTION.


BTW how did Ben play against Cheatroits???

Again go watch a NFL game before opening your trap.


IF He was on the Steelers he would have. So would Dan Marino (a guy who sucks according to your logic) You give guys like Dilfer, Brad Johnson and Jeff Hostettler bonuses for winning the big game and shoot down gunslingers like Kelly, Marino, Tarkenton and Fouts because they didnt. They are STILL great qbs in their own rights.

Ben played TERRIBLE vs the cheatriots UNTIL they went prevent.


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Have you ever watched an NFL game in your life???

Rivers had a Top-5 Defense. So shove your argument that Rivers would have won on Steelers team.He can't freaking take his team to playoff in a weak division with a Top-5 Defense in NFL.

Rivers scored garbage points and if you watched NFL games maybe you might figure it out. Stop clicking on Yahoo box score.

Why would you say Ben played terrible against Cheatroits??? He has POINTS and PRODUCTION.

So you get my point. FANTASY FOOTBALL is not everything.

Again you failed to answer is 33-22 TD/INT better than 17-5 TD/INT with 3000 yards in 12 games???

Rivers doesnt have a Mendenhall. WHY did Rivers get drafted BEFORE Ben?
Probably because he IS BETTER.

Rivers is a productive qb do you think that production would stop on the Steelers? I dont.

Ben got those points and production vs THE PREVENT as stated earlier. Prior to that PREVENT he produced THREE POINTS.

NEXT EXCUSE?[/quote]


Rivers had LT before. What happened to Rivers when LT left??? One of the best RB in modern era??? he is not on the team and he sucks???

So draft choice tells you he is an elite. Are you so stupid??? So in your booh Jamarcus Russell and ryan leaf are all pro.

Rivers got majority of his points against THE PREVENT. Again Chargers had Top-5 D. Why did they fail to advance to playoiffs in a weak division??

Ben also had production in that Cheatroits game. So as per your criteria Ben had POINTS and PRODUCTION. Do you get my point what i am trying to tell you??? POINTS and PRODUCTION does not necessarily means elite. You need to see how it came. If you are going to do it against PREVENT D it does not help your team. Rivers got his points against PREVENT D.

Again 33-22 TD/INT better than 17-5 TD/INT??? Can you answer that dumbwit?

Shawn
03-08-2011, 04:36 PM
James is almost as overrated as Emmitt Smith. Neither ran against constant 8 man fronts, like Bettis.

Dominic Rhodes had success with Peyton under center. Teams play the pass, not the run in Indy.

IMO Bettis is one of the most overrated backs in the history of the game. He lacked speed, couldn't catch a ball and many of his yards were late in the game after beating on opposing D's for 3 quarters. If we are speaking about pure running ability I think between James and Bettis it's a wash. But, when you add James ability to be a threat in the passing game...it's a no contest.

James had the speed, power and the ability to catch.

Shoot, I would take Mendenhall anyday over Bettis.
Bettis overrated? He routinely faced 8 man fronts and not only beat them, obliterated them so far into submission they didn't even want to tackle him in the fourth quarter.

Nobody is suggesting he was the fastest or quickest but he was dominate. They knew it was coming, played it with constant 8 man fronts and still couldn't stop it.

James has 4-5 yards before the defense even reacted to the run. Teams played and feared the pass with Peyton Manning under center.


3.9 ypc isn't dominant anyway you look at it. I'm not saying Bettis wasn't a great back but his career stats benefited greatly because he was durable and steady. He certainly wouldn't have brought Manning anything in the way of catching the ball. Bettis will always be considered one of the best to ever play the game. But, he will join Riggins as the RB with the lowest ypc average in the Hall. Combine that with little skills in the receiving department and you have overrated in my book. But, hey I'm just one man with an opinion. Most disagree with me.

Crash
03-08-2011, 04:38 PM
Focus!

There is no debating teams played the run more than the pass in Ben's first two years. That's why the passing surprised them so much and was open so much.

If the pass surprised them? They don't watch film.

Blockhead
03-08-2011, 04:39 PM
Edge had 1100 yards his first season without Peyton and 1200 the second season without him.

Certainly Peyton's not going to get the credit because Edge began to wear down in season TEN, correct?
Kurt Warner.

Crash
03-08-2011, 04:43 PM
I hate to be the bearer of bad news here, but Jerome Bettis' two years with Roethlisberger? He was mostly a BACKUP.

That is all.

Scalaid6
03-08-2011, 04:43 PM
Elite- meaning quarterbacks who consistently play at an efficient level

If that's your metric for being elite, then Ben is most certainly elite.

All-time:

8th in passer rating (92.5)
5th in YPA (8.04)
12th in completion % (63.07)
4th in career winning % (.704)

And he's had a passer rating of 95 or higher in 5 of 7 seasons.

You don't get those career numbers by being inconsistent or inefficient.

SEVEN SEASONS ARE A SMALL SAMPLE SIZE BUT YOU GO WITH THAT OH DESPERATE ONE

LOL

He's only been in the league 7 seasons and you spoke about consistency and efficiency, so I gave you the example.


Seven year guys ARENT considered all time greats. Its funny you guys cant site FOUR games in a row with elite stats for someone SO CONSISTENT.

Passer rating doesnt include sacks or fumbles. Misleading

Shawn
03-08-2011, 04:43 PM
Is Manning a better QB than Ben?

I think Manning is the best regular season QB to ever play the game.

I think in the post season it's not even close. Ben steps up in big games. If Ben would have put together another game winning drive in the SB this season, this thread doesn't even get started.

Who would I rather have as QB of the Steelers? Ben. I want a competitor, a guy who can win big games.

Scalaid6
03-08-2011, 04:46 PM
The DEFENSE got them to the SB in 08 and the RUNNING GAME IN 05 (You attribute that to Ben? WOW)

The running game in 2005 is not what got them to the Super Bowl, this is a serious misconception by quite a few people. The running game in those playoffs only yielded 3.2 yards per carry.

Ben threw so efficiently in those playoffs though that it may be one of the best postseason stretches for any QB in NFL history. 68% passes completed, 7-1 TDs to INT, 123 passer rating and 9.5 YPA. Those are insane numbers, especially for a 2nd year player. Ben's arm got them to the Super Bowl and the team won the Super Bowl. He carried them there, they carried him to his first SB win.

So those THREE game trump the 16 prior? OK

lol

Crash
03-08-2011, 04:47 PM
Edge had 1100 yards his first season without Peyton and 1200 the second season without him.

Certainly Peyton's not going to get the credit because Edge began to wear down in season TEN, correct?
Kurt Warner.

Um, Kurt Warner spent the majority of Edge's first season with the Cards on the bench.

siss
03-08-2011, 04:47 PM
Is Manning a better QB than Ben?

I think Manning is the best regular season QB to ever play the game.

I think in the post season it's not even close. Ben steps up in big games. If Ben would have put together another game winning drive in the SB this season, this thread doesn't even get started.

Who would I rather have as QB of the Steelers? Ben. I want a competitor, a guy who can win big games.
I will take the guy with a broken nose still playing over the pretty boy and his stats.

Scalaid6
03-08-2011, 04:50 PM
And he's had a passer rating of 95 or higher in 5 of 7 seasons.

You don't get those career numbers by being inconsistent or inefficient.[/quote]

SEVEN SEASONS ARE A SMALL SAMPLE SIZE BUT YOU GO WITH THAT OH DESPERATE ONE

LOL[/quote]

Seven SEASONS are a "small sample size" yet you hang your claims of Ben's ineffectiveness on FOUR CONSECUTIVE GAMES. Contradict yourself much???[/quote]


NO contradicton at all. The post was in regard to ALL TIME NUMBERS (7 years is not ALL TIME WORTHY)

I stated the four games to substantiate the fact that he is inconsistent and your lack or inability to list those games is PROOF that I am right but I already knew that


LOL[/quote]

Sounds like you may be a little slow. The numbers I posted are "efficiency" numbers, not an accumulation of numbers over a career such as total yards or TDs. Read it again, it's an example of consistency and efficiency over a career, and I used all-time to show how significantly high they actually are. He's been in the league 7 seasons, yes. Good job.[/quote]

Jordans numbers were considarably higher at 7 years than they were at 13. Get my point. Numbers tend to go down the longer you play. Your BIASED ALLTime numbers include those drop off years for those compared to Ben and not for Ben.

I'M ON TO YOU.

Scalaid6
03-08-2011, 04:52 PM
Is Manning a better QB than Ben?

I think Manning is the best regular season QB to ever play the game.

I think in the post season it's not even close. Ben steps up in big games. If Ben would have put together another game winning drive in the SB this season, this thread doesn't even get started.

Who would I rather have as QB of the Steelers? Ben. I want a competitor, a guy who can win big games.
I will take the guy with a broken nose still playing over the pretty boy and his stats.

a bover or mma fighter continuing to fight with a broken nose is HUGE. A football player with a helmet and facemask on? WHATS THE BIG DEAL?

Rivers played with an ACL.

Steelworth
03-08-2011, 04:53 PM
Its funny you guys cant site FOUR games in a row with elite stats for someone SO CONSISTENT.

If you're so intent on getting 4 games of elite consistency, look to week 4-8 last year (5 games). Ben was 5-0 with 11 TDs, 3 INTs, 70% competions, 1,435 yards (9.1 YPA) and a passer rating of 114. I don't how much this actually proves though, I already cited his entire body of work.

Crash
03-08-2011, 04:53 PM
Seven year guys ARENT considered all time greats.

Brady was. They think he's a HOF QB now (and did prior to 2009), and he played 7 seasons because two of his first 9 seasons he barely played.

You have to stop this, you make it too easy.

Scalaid6
03-08-2011, 04:54 PM
Why have guys FAILED to list four games in a row by Ben with Elite stats?

Why cant you guys list comparable weapons for Manning?

LOL

siss
03-08-2011, 04:55 PM
Is Manning a better QB than Ben?

I think Manning is the best regular season QB to ever play the game.

I think in the post season it's not even close. Ben steps up in big games. If Ben would have put together another game winning drive in the SB this season, this thread doesn't even get started.

Who would I rather have as QB of the Steelers? Ben. I want a competitor, a guy who can win big games.
I will take the guy with a broken nose still playing over the pretty boy and his stats.

a bover or mma fighter continuing to fight with a broken nose is HUGE. A football player with a helmet and facemask on? WHATS THE BIG DEAL?

Rivers played with an ACL.
:Blah

Tell you what, I will break your nose, and then you can go play NFL football and we will see if you can even match Ben's numbers. Okay???

Crash
03-08-2011, 04:57 PM
Experts call Kurt Warner a HOF-er and his career was basically six seasons.

Now what?

Scalaid6
03-08-2011, 04:58 PM
Its funny you guys cant site FOUR games in a row with elite stats for someone SO CONSISTENT.

If you're so intent on getting 4 games of elite consistency, look to week 4-8 last year (5 games). Ben was 5-0 with 11 TDs, 3 INTs, 70% competions, 1,435 yards (9.1 YPA) and a passer rating of 114. I don't how much this actually proves though, I already cited his entire body of work.

16 27 257 3 1 112.7 RATING
19 27 302 7 2 0 132.0 RATING
17 28 195 0 1 66.8 RATING
17 27 163 1 1 76.6 RATING

The 1st two games YES. BUT the Saints and Bengals game NO WAY WAS THAT ELITE

NEXT TRY......... HINT (GO TO 07)

Scalaid6
03-08-2011, 05:00 PM
Seven year guys ARENT considered all time greats.

Brady was. They think he's a HOF QB now (and did prior to 2009), and he played 7 seasons because two of his first 9 seasons he barely played.

You have to stop this, you make it too easy.

Brady is NOT Ben. Brady has League MVPs and SB MVPs to go with THREE rings

HIS RESUME IS WAY BETTER THAN BENS

Scalaid6
03-08-2011, 05:01 PM
Experts call Kurt Warner a HOF-er and his career was basically six seasons.

Now what?

WARNER HAS

MVP
MVP
MVP
MVP
CAN YOU HEAR THE CHANTS?
LOL

Steelworth
03-08-2011, 05:01 PM
Its funny you guys cant site FOUR games in a row with elite stats for someone SO CONSISTENT.

If you're so intent on getting 4 games of elite consistency, look to week 4-8 last year (5 games). Ben was 5-0 with 11 TDs, 3 INTs, 70% competions, 1,435 yards (9.1 YPA) and a passer rating of 114. I don't how much this actually proves though, I already cited his entire body of work.

16 27 257 3 1 112.7 RATING
19 27 302 7 2 0 132.0 RATING
17 28 195 0 1 66.8 RATING
17 27 163 1 1 76.6 RATING

The 1st two games YES. BUT the Saints and Bengals game NO WAY WAS THAT ELITE

NEXT TRY......... HINT (GO TO 07)

I meant 2009, that's my bad.

siss
03-08-2011, 05:02 PM
Seven year guys ARENT considered all time greats.

Brady was. They think he's a HOF QB now (and did prior to 2009), and he played 7 seasons because two of his first 9 seasons he barely played.

You have to stop this, you make it too easy.

Brady is NOT Ben. Brady has League MVPs and SB MVPs to go with THREE rings

HIS RESUME IS WAY BETTER THAN BENS
Ben does not care about individual awards, he wants rings.

And Ben will never be MVP because he doesn't suck up to the media. He should have been the MVP in 08.

Shawn
03-08-2011, 05:03 PM
Why have guys FAILED to list four games in a row by Ben with Elite stats?

Why cant you guys list comparable weapons for Manning?

LOL

I'm not sure why you want to validate an all time greatest QB argument with 4 game stretches. I gave uncontested stats comparing Ben's career with Montana's. 4 games doesn't make a career. A career makes a career.

Crash
03-08-2011, 05:04 PM
Manning had Harrison/Wayne/James/Dallas Clark in his huddle at one time.

I defy you to list four starters for Ben at those positions, AT ANY TIME, that compare to that?

Crash
03-08-2011, 05:09 PM
Experts call Kurt Warner a HOF-er and his career was basically six seasons.

Now what?

WARNER HAS

MVP
MVP
MVP
MVP
CAN YOU HEAR THE CHANTS?
LOL

Retard, that means you are wrong.

God you are pathetic. Did Ben bang your Mom?

Scalaid6
03-08-2011, 05:09 PM
Its funny you guys cant site FOUR games in a row with elite stats for someone SO CONSISTENT.

If you're so intent on getting 4 games of elite consistency, look to week 4-8 last year (5 games). Ben was 5-0 with 11 TDs, 3 INTs, 70% competions, 1,435 yards (9.1 YPA) and a passer rating of 114. I don't how much this actually proves though, I already cited his entire body of work.

16 27 257 3 1 112.7 RATING
19 27 302 7 2 0 132.0 RATING
17 28 195 0 1 66.8 RATING
17 27 163 1 1 76.6 RATING

The 1st two games YES. BUT the Saints and Bengals game NO WAY WAS THAT ELITE

NEXT TRY......... HINT (GO TO 07)

I meant 2009, that's my bad.

Sorry not FOUR in a row. You see he stunk up the joint vs the Vikes and the DEFENSE had to save the day.


26 33 333 78.8 2 0 128 RATING
23 30 277 76.7 3 1 123.9 RATING
23 35 417 65.7 2 1113.6 RATING
14 26 175 53.8 1 0 87.8 RATING

Scalaid6
03-08-2011, 05:10 PM
Seven year guys ARENT considered all time greats.

Brady was. They think he's a HOF QB now (and did prior to 2009), and he played 7 seasons because two of his first 9 seasons he barely played.

You have to stop this, you make it too easy.

Brady is NOT Ben. Brady has League MVPs and SB MVPs to go with THREE rings

HIS RESUME IS WAY BETTER THAN BENS
Ben does not care about individual awards, he wants rings.

And Ben will never be MVP because he doesn't suck up to the media. He should have been the MVP in 08.

Tone was the righful winner. Ben did nothing until the last drive

Crash
03-08-2011, 05:10 PM
You see he stunk up the joint vs the Vikes and the DEFENSE had to save the day.

Um, no, he didn't. He was also hurt by a TD pass being called back by a BS penalty on Heath Miller.

One has to watch the games, to be able to talk about them.

Steelworth
03-08-2011, 05:11 PM
Why have guys FAILED to list four games in a row by Ben with Elite stats?

Why cant you guys list comparable weapons for Manning?

LOL

I'm not sure why you want to validate an all time greatest QB argument with 4 game stretches. I gave uncontested stats comparing Ben's career with Montana's. 4 games doesn't make a career. A career makes a career.

Exactly. I think he wanted 4 games because he thought he didn't have them and it's all to fuel an agenda anyways. The numbers comparison to Montana is a great example because they span seasons to a guy considered to be one of the greatest, and his "efficiency" numbers I posted show how consistently efficient he's actually been by also comparing them to every other QB in history.

Remember Scalaid, efficiency, not accumulation.

Crash
03-08-2011, 05:12 PM
Tone was the righful winner. Ben did nothing until the last drive

Wrong again, Ben was dominant the first two drives as well.

Then the great defense couldn't get off the field.

Scalaid6
03-08-2011, 05:13 PM
Manning had Harrison/Wayne/James/Dallas Clark in his huddle at one time.

I defy you to list four starters for Ben at those positions, AT ANY TIME, that compare to that?

See how this DECEPTIVE little Devil tries to twist the argument?

4 players a team doesnt make. Please list ANYONE comparable to this on Manning or Rivers rosters. I'LL WAIT

Plaxico Burress, Jerome Bettis, Willie Parker, Rashard Mendenhall, Heath Miller, Mike Wallace, Hines Ward, Santonio Holmes, Alan Fanaca, Maurkice Pouncey. Not to mention Joey Porter, James Harrison, Lawrence Timmons, Ike Taylor, Troy Polamalu, Casey Hampton, Aaron Smith, James Farrior and Lamarr Woodley

Scalaid6
03-08-2011, 05:15 PM
You see he stunk up the joint vs the Vikes and the DEFENSE had to save the day.

Um, no, he didn't. He was also hurt by a TD pass being called back by a BS penalty on Heath Miller.

One has to watch the games, to be able to talk about them.

I watched the game. We also benifitted by a QUESTIONABLE call.

I listed his stats 14 26 175 53.8 1 0 87.8 RATING
Thats ELITE to you? Not to me.

NOTICE THERE IS ALWAYS AN EXCUSE WITH BEN HOMERS?

ARIANS, THE LINE, KEMOS ARM GOT HIT, BS PENALTY, BROKEN NOSE, FOOT, LYING WOMEN.

SHIIIIIIIIIISH

Crash
03-08-2011, 05:16 PM
Plaxico Burress, Jerome Bettis, Willie Parker, Rashard Mendenhall, Heath Miller, Mike Wallace, Hines Ward, Santonio Holmes, Alan Fanaca, Maurkice Pouncey. Not to mention Joey Porter, James Harrison, Lawrence Timmons, Ike Taylor, Troy Polamalu, Casey Hampton, Aaron Smith, James Farrior and Lamarr Woodley

You are lumping guys together here that never played on the same team. That's a joke son.

Steelworth
03-08-2011, 05:18 PM
Sorry not FOUR in a row. You see he stunk up the joint vs the Vikes and the DEFENSE had to save the day.


26 33 333 78.8 2 0 128 RATING
23 30 277 76.7 3 1 123.9 RATING
23 35 417 65.7 2 1113.6 RATING
14 26 175 53.8 1 0 87.8 RATING

You call winning the game, throwing no INTs and posting a 87.8 passer rating "stinking up the joint"? It wasn't his best game numbers-wise, but it sure as hell wasn't "stinking up the joint".

If you're so obsessed with this 4 game stretch business, go to weeks 5-9 in 2007. 4-1 with 14 TDs to 4 INTs, 74 % completions and a passer rating of 119.

Scalaid6
03-08-2011, 05:19 PM
Tone was the righful winner. Ben did nothing until the last drive

Wrong again, Ben was dominant the first two drives as well.

Then the great defense couldn't get off the field.

DOMINANT? He produced THREE points on those drives. The D held Warner and co in check for 3 quarters while the offense wasted opportunity after opportunity

Scalaid6
03-08-2011, 05:20 PM
Plaxico Burress, Jerome Bettis, Willie Parker, Rashard Mendenhall, Heath Miller, Mike Wallace, Hines Ward, Santonio Holmes, Alan Fanaca, Maurkice Pouncey. Not to mention Joey Porter, James Harrison, Lawrence Timmons, Ike Taylor, Troy Polamalu, Casey Hampton, Aaron Smith, James Farrior and Lamarr Woodley

You are lumping guys together here that never played on the same team. That's a joke son.

Did they or didnt they play with Ben i.e HIS WEAPONS

Scalaid6
03-08-2011, 05:25 PM
Sorry not FOUR in a row. You see he stunk up the joint vs the Vikes and the DEFENSE had to save the day.


26 33 333 78.8 2 0 128 RATING
23 30 277 76.7 3 1 123.9 RATING
23 35 417 65.7 2 1113.6 RATING
14 26 175 53.8 1 0 87.8 RATING

You call winning the game, throwing no INTs and posting a 87.8 passer rating "stinking up the joint"? It wasn't his best game numbers-wise, but it sure as hell wasn't "stinking up the joint".

If you're so obsessed with this 4 game stretch business, go to weeks 5-9 in 2007. 4-1 with 14 TDs to 4 INTs, 74 % completions and a passer rating of 119.

Ah you followed my suggestion and went to 07 Good Job my man. It is the closest you will get to Elite stats in a four game stretch for Ben. However the ONE TD game vs the Seahawks doesnt qualify as ELITE stats. Sorry We could get that from Batch, Dixon or Leftwich (bums)

Crash
03-08-2011, 05:25 PM
DOMINANT? He produced THREE points on those drives

Actually it was 10, a FG and a TD.

Like I said, watch the games.

PS...Peyton Manning had three DEFENSIVE TEAMMATES and two offensive linemen make the Pro Bowl in 2005.

One and done.

Crash
03-08-2011, 05:29 PM
However the ONE TD game vs the Seahawks doesnt qualify as ELITE stats. Sorry We could get that from Batch, Dixon or Leftwich (bums)

Playing without BOTH Ward and Santonio Holmes too?

Highly doubtful. I'll use the fact that the Steelers offense scored ZERO regulation TDs this season on offense in their first two games of 2010 without Ben, but WITH Ward and Wallace on the field.

Crash
03-08-2011, 05:34 PM
DOMINANT? He produced THREE points on those drives. The D held Warner and co in check for 3 quarters while the offense wasted opportunity after opportunity

Um, the Steelers offense only had the ball 5 times after 45 minutes, and scored on three of the drives.

Steelworth
03-08-2011, 05:40 PM
However the ONE TD game vs the Seahawks doesnt qualify as ELITE stats. Sorry We could get that from Batch, Dixon or Leftwich (bums)

Playing without BOTH Ward and Santonio Holmes too?

Highly doubtful. I'll use the fact that the Steelers offense scored ZERO regulation TDs this season on offense in their first two games of 2010 without Ben, but WITH Ward and Wallace on the field.

And that Seahawks game in 2007 was an absolutely dominant display in every facet of the game, including QB play.

Chadman
03-08-2011, 05:51 PM
Now, Chadman isn't some great talent evaluater, or even a doyen of all things QB.

It could be that Ben isn't 'elite'. It could be that an organisation as strong as the Steelers is more responsible for Ben's success than any talent Ben contains.

Or maybe you're right- maybe Ben is uncoachable. Maybe he's a turd. Maybe he beats up on old women on Sunday afternoons.

but here's something Chadman does know- no amount of arguing the point is going to make it any different.

If a poster wants to come on here, tell us how great a talent evaluater he is & that he's more knowledgable than Crash about all things QB- don't let it rile you up. See it for what it is- another knobhead that thinks that starting crap for the sake of starting crap is hilarious.

7 pages of arguments feed the beast. You are only fanning the flames here people...

Blockhead
03-08-2011, 05:52 PM
You see he stunk up the joint vs the Vikes and the DEFENSE had to save the day.

Um, no, he didn't. He was also hurt by a TD pass being called back by a BS penalty on Heath Miller.

One has to watch the games, to be able to talk about them.
If Ben does anything the first few drives of the fourth quarter, the game is a blowout. Instead he had IIRC 3 drives with a total of negative yards.

Watch the games!

Blockhead
03-08-2011, 05:54 PM
Experts call Kurt Warner a HOF-er and his career was basically six seasons.

Now what?

WARNER HAS

MVP
MVP
MVP
MVP
CAN YOU HEAR THE CHANTS?
LOL

Retard, that means you are wrong.

God you are pathetic. Did Ben bang your Mom?
Warner has Super Bowl records. Ben has one drive or he's a Super Bowl complet bust. We won the SB in spite of him in 2005 and lost largely because of him in 2010.

Oops, forgot. Ben does have a SB record. Lowest passer rating EVER for a winning QB.

Shawn
03-08-2011, 05:56 PM
Now, Chadman isn't some great talent evaluater, or even a doyen of all things QB.

It could be that Ben isn't 'elite'. It could be that an organisation as strong as the Steelers is more responsible for Ben's success than any talent Ben contains.

Or maybe you're right- maybe Ben is uncoachable. Maybe he's a turd. Maybe he beats up on old women on Sunday afternoons.

but here's something Chadman does know- no amount of arguing the point is going to make it any different.

If a poster wants to come on here, tell us how great a talent evaluater he is & that he's more knowledgable than Crash about all things QB- don't let it rile you up. See it for what it is- another knobhead that thinks that starting crap for the sake of starting crap is hilarious.

7 pages of arguments feed the beast. You are only fanning the flames here people...

Duly noted. Now a days I tend to stay out of these little war of words. But, it's the offseason so ehh why not. Personally, nothing to get worked up about. I think Ben is elite, many NFL fans do not. That's aight...hope he just brings more SB wins to the Burgh. :)

Scalaid6
03-08-2011, 07:37 PM
DOMINANT? He produced THREE points on those drives

Actually it was 10, a FG and a TD.

Like I said, watch the games.

PS...Peyton Manning had three DEFENSIVE TEAMMATES and two offensive linemen make the Pro Bowl in 2005.

One and done.

I STILL have the game recorded so I can watch the game anytime I like. Ben was DOMINANT on the 1st drive (3pts) like I said. The second was INCONSISTENT, with many missed passes (notably the bomb to a wide open Nate Washington) that was underthrown (whats new).

YOU WATCH THE GAMES

Scalaid6
03-08-2011, 07:38 PM
However the ONE TD game vs the Seahawks doesnt qualify as ELITE stats. Sorry We could get that from Batch, Dixon or Leftwich (bums)

Playing without BOTH Ward and Santonio Holmes too?

Highly doubtful. I'll use the fact that the Steelers offense scored ZERO regulation TDs this season on offense in their first two games of 2010 without Ben, but WITH Ward and Wallace on the field.

Teams HABITUALLY start the season slow on offense. WHY didnt you include the THIRD game without Ben??

LOL

TELLING

Scalaid6
03-08-2011, 07:40 PM
However the ONE TD game vs the Seahawks doesnt qualify as ELITE stats. Sorry We could get that from Batch, Dixon or Leftwich (bums)

Playing without BOTH Ward and Santonio Holmes too?

Highly doubtful. I'll use the fact that the Steelers offense scored ZERO regulation TDs this season on offense in their first two games of 2010 without Ben, but WITH Ward and Wallace on the field.

And that Seahawks game in 2007 was an absolutely dominant display in every facet of the game, including QB play.

Yeah to a HOMER. If that was Leftwich, Batch or Dixon you guys would be complaining about one ONE TD.

Scalaid6
03-08-2011, 07:42 PM
Now, Chadman isn't some great talent evaluater, or even a doyen of all things QB.

It could be that Ben isn't 'elite'. It could be that an organisation as strong as the Steelers is more responsible for Ben's success than any talent Ben contains.

Or maybe you're right- maybe Ben is uncoachable. Maybe he's a turd. Maybe he beats up on old women on Sunday afternoons.

but here's something Chadman does know- no amount of arguing the point is going to make it any different.

If a poster wants to come on here, tell us how great a talent evaluater he is & that he's more knowledgable than Crash about all things QB- don't let it rile you up. See it for what it is- another knobhead that thinks that starting crap for the sake of starting crap is hilarious.

7 pages of arguments feed the beast. You are only fanning the flames here people...

So are you DUMDUM

NW Steeler
03-08-2011, 07:49 PM
Son, it's one thing to have opinions, it's another to think every one of your opinions is fact. It doesn't make you smart, just an arrogant little prick.

:Clap

Thank you!

Crash
03-08-2011, 08:05 PM
Teams HABITUALLY start the season slow on offense

Ben doesn't except for the 2006 season.

Now what?

Crash
03-08-2011, 08:07 PM
Warner has Super Bowl records.

And most of his records are from games he LOST.

You are so obsessed with trolling on this board that you are arguing just for the sake of doing it 43. You are actually AGREEING with me on his "point" but your stupid a$s doesn't even realize it.

Go smoke your dope. Better yet? OD on it.

Chadman
03-08-2011, 08:16 PM
Now, Chadman isn't some great talent evaluater, or even a doyen of all things QB.

It could be that Ben isn't 'elite'. It could be that an organisation as strong as the Steelers is more responsible for Ben's success than any talent Ben contains.

Or maybe you're right- maybe Ben is uncoachable. Maybe he's a turd. Maybe he beats up on old women on Sunday afternoons.

but here's something Chadman does know- no amount of arguing the point is going to make it any different.

If a poster wants to come on here, tell us how great a talent evaluater he is & that he's more knowledgable than Crash about all things QB- don't let it rile you up. See it for what it is- another knobhead that thinks that starting crap for the sake of starting crap is hilarious.

7 pages of arguments feed the beast. You are only fanning the flames here people...

So are you DUMDUM

Now, if Chadman were so inclined, he COULD point out that not only was your response infintile, it also showed your lack of any grasp of the English language- as "DUMDUM" should really have been spelt 'DUMB DUMB". you'll note the addition of the silent "B", a known bane of all moronic fools who don't know how to spell- many the downfall for those spelling bee's you obviously haven't graduated to yet. You may also note that there is a 'space' between the first & second 'DUMB'- you add these spaces between words or you runtheriskofallyourwarsjoiningtogetherandmakingyou looklikeacockhead.

Of course, Chadman isn't so inclined, so isn't likely to say any of that now, is he?

Blockhead
03-08-2011, 08:42 PM
Warner has Super Bowl records.

And most of his records are from games he LOST.

You are so obsessed with trolling on this board that you are arguing just for the sake of doing it 43. You are actually AGREEING with me on his "point" but your stupid a$s doesn't even realize it.

Go smoke your dope. Better yet? OD on it.

To the mods of this forum, why is this material allowed to be posted time and time again without banishment of Crash?

Back on topic, you don't win Super Bowl MVP's for losing.

DukieBoy
03-08-2011, 09:16 PM
Looks like a person in need of attention, however and wherever it can be found ...


http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=68&f=1897&t=7244864

Crash
03-09-2011, 01:30 AM
Back on topic, you don't win Super Bowl MVP's for losing.

You don't? Better ask Chuck Howley about that.

Crash
03-09-2011, 02:52 AM
Scalaid6 = HeHateMe

:moon

sentinel33
03-09-2011, 12:45 PM
WOW!

This thread was a no brainer from the get-go. It was also checkmate, in my opinion, when Shawn gave comparisons between Ben/Montana AND Ben/Elway. Those posts were outstanding and should be all anyone needs to see. But I knew this about Ben before he threw those stats up there. So did a few others in this thread.

There hasnt been a QB in the league that has done what Ben has in his first 7 years.
With Ben maturing and realizing some of the errors of his ways in the past, I can't wait for the 2nd half performance of his career.

True Steeler fans understand the value of Ben. We watch him play every weekend.

What Ben brings to the table is unquantifiable. He's a true original with all the moxy, schutspa and get-it-done attitude that one would ever need.

It was a heartbreaker to see this team come up short in the SB.

But if I know Ben, and I feel that I do(although,sadly, not personally), he is doing everything he can to get back to the SB and win it.



Driven by TWO things-Winning games and Championships.

Thats my kinda Quarterback.

THATS OUR QUARTERBACK!

Oviedo
03-09-2011, 12:47 PM
WOW!

This thread was a no brainer from the get-go. It was also checkmate, in my opinion, when Shawn gave comparisons between Ben/Montana AND Ben/Elway. Those posts were outstanding and should be all anyone needs to see. But I knew this about Ben before he threw those stats up there. So did a few others in this thread.

There hasnt been a QB in the league that has done what Ben has in his first 7 years.
With Ben maturing and realizing some of the errors of his ways in the past, I can't wait for the 2nd half performance of his career.

True Steeler fans understand the value of Ben. We watch him play every weekend.

What Ben brings to the table is unquantifiable. He's a true original with all the moxy, schutspa and get-it-done attitude that one would ever need.

It was a heartbreaker to see this team come up short in the SB.

But if I know Ben, and I feel that I do(although,sadly, not personally), he is doing everything he can to get back to the SB and win it.



Driven by TWO things-Winning games and Championships.

Thats my kinda Quarterback.

THATS OUR QUARTERBACK!

Truth and Wisdom :Beer

ikestops85
03-09-2011, 01:05 PM
Back on topic, you don't win Super Bowl MVP's for losing.

You don't? Better ask Chuck Howley about that.

Not many people know that ... I only do because Chuck Howley is a 3rd cousin of mine.

feltdizz
03-09-2011, 01:58 PM
I don't really care if Ben is considered elite or not. He is the perfect fit for our team and we have had a ton of success with him under center.

It's no surprise that the people who thought Ben wasn't elite after winning 2 SB's have the same opinion of his game after losing a SB.

Fans criticizing/debating the QB position shouldn't shock anyone because it's done all the time. Now as far as the Ben debate goes here is my opinion:

We reached 5 AFCCG's and 1 SB from 1981 to 2003 with mediocre QB play... this is probably why some people don't think Ben is the second coming of jesus at the QB position.

However, when you look at the stats over the first 7 years it's hard to argue his elite status.

The real question is if Ben has hit the ceiling or is there room for him to grow and become a better QB?

Crash
03-09-2011, 02:09 PM
So one SB berth from 1981-2003, and three in seven years since Ben got here and fans want to use 1981-2003's "success" as a means to downplay Ben's achievements?

WTF ever. If anything the lack of SB berth's and rings from 1981-2003 enhance Ben's career even more.

NW Steeler
03-09-2011, 02:41 PM
So one SB berth from 1981-2003, and three in seven years since Ben got here and fans want to use 1981-2003's "success" as a means to downplay Ben's achievements?

WTF ever. If anything the lack of SB berth's and rings from 1981-2003 enhance Ben's career even more.

I agree. QB play was always the missing link. Enjoy it while it lasts.

Blockhead
03-09-2011, 03:39 PM
We reached 5 AFCCG's and 1 SB from 1981 to 2003 with mediocre QB play... this is probably why some people don't think Ben is the second coming of jesus at the QB position.

Yep, if Ben was to do the work and become a student of the game and a smart player who still had his physical play when needed and didn't rely on it, we'd have a real elite QB. As of now, Ben's too inconsistent with the sacks, stupid plays and up and down play to be considered elite imo but clearly other can make a case and are entitled to their opinion.

No doubt we needed an improvement at the QB position but there are 15-20 QB's in the league that would have been enough of an improvement to win it all in Pittsburgh imo.

feltdizz
03-09-2011, 04:09 PM
So one SB berth from 1981-2003, and three in seven years since Ben got here and fans want to use 1981-2003's "success" as a means to downplay Ben's achievements?

WTF ever. If anything the lack of SB berth's and rings from 1981-2003 enhance Ben's career even more.

I could see if the Steelers were cellar dwellers during those 20+ years but they made it to the playoffs 13 times and went to 5 AFCCG's and 1 SB with average QB play.

It's not downplaying Ben's achievements just pointing out the facts...

he didn't go to a bum sauce organization... he went to a team with the best D in the NFL since the 70's.

papillon
03-09-2011, 04:20 PM
I don't really care if Ben is considered elite or not. He is the perfect fit for our team and we have had a ton of success with him under center.

It's no surprise that the people who thought Ben wasn't elite after winning 2 SB's have the same opinion of his game after losing a SB.

Fans criticizing/debating the QB position shouldn't shock anyone because it's done all the time. Now as far as the Ben debate goes here is my opinion:

We reached 5 AFCCG's and 1 SB from 1981 to 2003 with mediocre QB play... this is probably why some people don't think Ben is the second coming of jesus at the QB position.

However, when you look at the stats over the first 7 years it's hard to argue his elite status.

The real question is if Ben has hit the ceiling or is there room for him to grow and become a better QB?

With good to great quarterback play the Steelers have been to 4 AFCCG/3 SBs and won two of them in 7 years. I would say with this level of quarterback play for another 15 years the Steelers will exceed 5 AFFCGs and 1 SB (they've already exceeded the SBs)

No one believes he's the second coming (well, except for one poster :P ), but it's difficult to argue with the success that the team is having with Ben under center, regardless of how you classify him.

When you think about it, Ben is the model of consistency over his career, 7 years, 5 playoff berths and only twice out of the running. That is consistent where I come from, you don't judge consistency with a small sample size of say 4 consecutive games, but you judge it over time and over time Ben and the Steelers are what every other team desires to be.

If some of the folks that are Steeler fans would take a step back and put themselves in any other teams shoes over the past 7 years they will find that no team (except the Patriots and Colts) have had the consistent success that the Steelers have had. The Colts have been in the playoffs all of those years and the Pats all but one, the Steelers all but two and only the Steelers have been in the Super Bowl three times in those 7 years. That's as good as it gets guys and gals; that's consistency and I hope that the Steelers can continue that consistency for another 7 years, but it will be a daunting task to replicate.

The success is not all because of Ben to be sure, but he was the final piece that put the team on its current track of winning, winning playoff games and winning Super Bowls.

Many teams like the Chargers come into the season with high expectations and have typically under performed, the Texans, Cowboys, Giants and Bengals as well (can throw in the Ravens too).

The defense making Ben great doesn't hold water; the Chargers were #1 on offense and #1 on defense this past year and weren't even in the playoffs.

Only the following teams have been in the playoffs more than the Steelers have been in the Super Bowl over the past 7 years: Colts (7), Pats(6), Chargers (5), Eagles (5), Pack (4), Seahawks (4), Giants (4) and Ravens (4)

If you're more obsessed with finding fault with Ben or Lebeau or Arians or Tomlin or [insert whipping boy dujour], well, fine, you are missing a great time to be a Steeler fan.

Pappy

ScoreKeeper
03-09-2011, 04:26 PM
Great post Pappy. :Clap :Clap

Oviedo
03-09-2011, 04:48 PM
If you're more obsessed with finding fault with Ben or Lebeau or Arians or Tomlin or [PAPPY], well, fine, you are missing a great time to be a Steeler fan.



:wink:

You were right...good post

Crash
03-09-2011, 04:51 PM
What's sad is most of the resentment is because they now want to protect Bradshaw's legacy. A legacy they didn't care about when they were booing him and when he avoided Pittsburgh for 20 years.

Ben will get the same treatment, people will only appreciate him once he's no longer here.

Yay, they went to 5 AFC title games from 1981-2003.

Fails in comparison to the four in 7 years that Ben has been to, no?

"Fans" who are so hell bent on trying to downplay Ben's career should just shut up. Because all they do when they talk with their gibberish is prove Ben's value even more.

Crash
03-09-2011, 05:06 PM
he didn't go to a bum sauce organization... he went to a team with the best D in the NFL since the 70's.

What does the 70's have to do with now?

NOTHING!

What do the 1982-84, '89 Steelers playoff teams have to do with now?

NOTHING!

Trying to lump the success of the Steelers of the 1970's/early 90's as a way to downplay Ben would be like me trying to excuse the Pirates for now because of how they dominated the 1970's.

The Steelers played 71 seasons prior to Ben's arrival.

They made the playoffs 21 times in 71 seasons.

Ben's made them five times in seven and won two titles.

This team was founded in 1933. Not 1972 when the ball hit Jack Tatum.

You want to lump stuff together? Use all of it then.

This is a QB driven league, of the 26 playoff seasons the Steelers have had Ben and Bradshaw combine for 14 of them and Bradshaw hasn't played in almost 30 years.

That's not a coincidence. It also shows how bad this team was prior to 1972 as well as for the majority of the 1980's and 1990 and 1991.

Crash
03-09-2011, 05:08 PM
Yep, if Ben was to do the work and become a student of the game and a smart player who still had his physical play when needed and didn't rely on it, we'd have a real elite QB

You don't know Ben. You don't know how much work he does.

Until you provide facts? Shut it.

I don't want Ben to be Peyton Manning, Ben performs in the playoffs.

ScoreKeeper
03-09-2011, 05:08 PM
Bring back Bubby!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

birtikidis
03-09-2011, 06:45 PM
So one SB berth from 1981-2003, and three in seven years since Ben got here and fans want to use 1981-2003's "success" as a means to downplay Ben's achievements?

WTF ever. If anything the lack of SB berth's and rings from 1981-2003 enhance Ben's career even more.
I didn't read that about the 81-03 seasons. who ever said our qb play was even decent during that time is a moron. Our running game carried us for so long that we forgot what a good qb looked like.

feltdizz
03-09-2011, 06:48 PM
he didn't go to a bum sauce organization... he went to a team with the best D in the NFL since the 70's.

What does the 70's have to do with now?
NOTHING!


Oops.. my bad. I forgot you can't talk about the Steelers before Ben was drafted. :lol:

6 year rule... how could I forget :roll:

feltdizz
03-09-2011, 06:53 PM
I didn't read that about the 81-03 seasons. who ever said our qb play was even decent during that time is a moron. Our running game carried us for so long that we forgot what a good qb looked like.

...and reaching 5 AFCCG's and SB berth's with that kind of QB play is one of the reasons some question Ben's elite status.

birtikidis
03-09-2011, 06:55 PM
I didn't read that about the 81-03 seasons. who ever said our qb play was even decent during that time is a moron. Our running game carried us for so long that we forgot what a good qb looked like.

...and reaching 5 AFCCG's and SB berth's with that kind of QB play is one of the reasons some question Ben's elite status.
so you were happy with mark malone, bubby and all the other turds we had? if we had even a decent qb Cowher would have won multiple super bowls. Ben will never be statistically elite, but really, who wants stats? not me.

Crash
03-09-2011, 07:16 PM
...and reaching 5 AFCCG's and SB berth's with that kind of QB play is one of the reasons some question Ben's elite status.

Um, 5 AFC title games and 1 AFC title, in 23 years isn't that good.


Oops.. my bad. I forgot you can't talk about the Steelers before Ben was drafted.

"As a black man I don't even recognize sports before blacks were allowed on the field."

-feltdizz February 21 2010.

So it's OK for YOU to not recognize sports because blacks didn't play but then you get PO'd because I say the success of the 1970's team has nothing to do with Ben?

That makes sense. :roll:

feltdizz
03-09-2011, 07:17 PM
so you were happy with mark malone, bubby and all the other turds we had?


HELLLL NO!


if we had even a decent qb Cowher would have won multiple super bowls.

some pundits and fans think Ben is the "decent QB" winning multiple SB's now.

Crash
03-09-2011, 07:19 PM
Ben will never be statistically elite, but really, who wants stats? not me.


But he IS elite with stats. When he's compared in the proper context.

Ben's 7 year stats mirror Montana.

Ben after 7 years also has thrown more TDs than the alleged great/elite Drew Brees did.

What else do people want?

Guys like Manning are going to have lopsided stats when he's played six more seasons.

JFC this ain't rocket science. People just need to use logic.

feltdizz
03-09-2011, 07:28 PM
[quote]...and reaching 5 AFCCG's and SB berth's with that kind of QB play is one of the reasons some question Ben's elite status.

Um, 5 AFC title games and 1 AFC title, in 23 years isn't that good.


Oops.. my bad. I forgot you can't talk about the Steelers before Ben was drafted.

"As a black man I don't even recognize sports before blacks were allowed on the field."

-feltdizz February 21 2010.

So it's OK for YOU to not recognize sports because blacks didn't play but then you get PO'd because I say the success of the 1970's team has nothing to do with Ben?

That makes sense. :roll:[/quote:217iaull]

apples to oranges :wink:

birtikidis
03-09-2011, 07:30 PM
so you were happy with mark malone, bubby and all the other turds we had?


HELLLL NO!


if we had even a decent qb Cowher would have won multiple super bowls.

some pundits and fans think Ben is the "decent QB" winning multiple SB's now.
yea but at the same time, does Ben have a DOMINANT running back that carries the team when we need it? a guy like Bettis in his prime or Foster/Bam morris? not really, actually his run game has been pretty inconsistent.

Crash
03-09-2011, 07:38 PM
Ben has 144 TD passes after seven seasons in the league.

Brady after 7 threw 146.

birtikidis
03-09-2011, 07:46 PM
Ben has 144 TD passes after seven seasons in the league.

Brady after 7 threw 146.
Crash, I totally agree with you, but I don't have to compare him to these other qb's in the league. All I know is that since I was born, I never thought we had a qb who could win it all until now. Proof is on the screen/field.
Brady, Manning, Rivers, etc are all great players in their own right. All the guys who keep saying that ben wouldn't win on other teams aren't thinking. I mean, they would be right if the coaches were stubborn and didn't try to mold the system around their qb. that's what coaches are for.

feltdizz
03-09-2011, 07:54 PM
so you were happy with mark malone, bubby and all the other turds we had?


HELLLL NO!


if we had even a decent qb Cowher would have won multiple super bowls.

some pundits and fans think Ben is the "decent QB" winning multiple SB's now.
yea but at the same time, does Ben have a DOMINANT running back that carries the team when we need it? a guy like Bettis in his prime or Foster/Bam morris? not really, actually his run game has been pretty inconsistent.

You don't need a dominant running game when you have a good QB. The running game was good in 2004 and 2005 and slipped until last year.

birtikidis
03-09-2011, 08:01 PM
so you were happy with mark malone, bubby and all the other turds we had?


HELLLL NO!


if we had even a decent qb Cowher would have won multiple super bowls.

some pundits and fans think Ben is the "decent QB" winning multiple SB's now.
yea but at the same time, does Ben have a DOMINANT running back that carries the team when we need it? a guy like Bettis in his prime or Foster/Bam morris? not really, actually his run game has been pretty inconsistent.

You don't need a dominant running game when you have a good QB. The running game was good in 2004 and 2005 and slipped until last year.
felt, I was talking about those qb's before ben that had great running games that carried the team. Anyone who watched those teams KNOWS that if we had a decent qb, we make it to multiple super bowls.

Crash
03-09-2011, 08:04 PM
The running game wasn't that good in 2010, all they did was use the same erratic running game MORE.

But more really doesn't make it BETTER.


apples to oranges

Yeah, the black guy has his rules but won't give whitey Crash the same courtesy. :stirpot

Blockhead
03-09-2011, 08:06 PM
Ben has 144 TD passes after seven seasons in the league.

Brady after 7 threw 146.
You're including his rookie year, in which he didn't play.

When you look at his first 7 years of actually seeing the field, he threw 197 tds compared to Ben's 146.

feltdizz
03-09-2011, 08:08 PM
felt, I was talking about those qb's before ben that had great running games that carried the team. Anyone who watched those teams KNOWS that if we had a decent qb, we make it to multiple super bowls.

:Agree

Crash
03-09-2011, 08:10 PM
Ben has 144 TD passes after seven seasons in the league.

Brady after 7 threw 146.
You're including his rookie year, in which he didn't play.

When you look at his first 7 years of actually seeing the field, he threw 197 tds compared to Ben's 146.

So what? Ben didn't have the luxury of learning NFL defenses by watching film (and whatever else the Pats had) of defenses. He was too busy playing as a true rookie.

Until Brady wins a ring without video tape? His career is a farce.

He's laid 4 straight playoff eggs since they got caught. That's not a coincidence.

Blockhead
03-09-2011, 08:11 PM
yea but at the same time, does Ben have a DOMINANT running back that carries the team when we need it? a guy like Bettis in his prime or Foster/Bam morris? not really, actually his run game has been pretty inconsistent.
We have a true three down back who, in many ways, is more talented than Bettis, Foster or Bam. He's certainly more complete.

The problem with our run game is our OC's terrible system for running. Running is just for show in his offense and Ben couldn't notice or hit a checkdown tight end or running back if his life depended on it. We have no fullback like the previous systems either.

I totally agree, Ben would be better in a run/play action system that used his athleticism to roll him out and make his reads easier and more reactionary than needing to diagnose coverage at the line, something Ben clearly doesn't do well.

feltdizz
03-09-2011, 08:13 PM
The running game wasn't that good in 2010, all they did was use the same erratic running game MORE.

But more really doesn't make it BETTER.


apples to oranges

Yeah, the black guy has his rules but won't give whitey Crash the same courtesy. :stirpot

keep stirring... :wink:

If you don't think our teams reputation from the 70's on has something to do with the opinion some have of Ben that is your right.

I joked you on your rule, I didn't say you weren't entitled to have it.

Blockhead
03-09-2011, 08:13 PM
Ben has 144 TD passes after seven seasons in the league.

Brady after 7 threw 146.
You're including his rookie year, in which he didn't play.

When you look at his first 7 years of actually seeing the field, he threw 197 tds compared to Ben's 146.

So what? Ben didn't have the luxury of learning NFL defenses by watching film (and whatever else the Pats had) of defenses. He was too busy playing as a true rookie.

Until Brady wins a ring without video tape? His career is a farce.

He's laid 4 straight playoff eggs since they got caught. That's not a coincidence.

Indeed he was playing but if you are going to compare number of years and stats, it only makes sense to use years both actually played.

Ben in 2004 was in a run based and controlled system. Not surprisingly, it was one of his best seasons. As we give him more rope, the more he hangs himself with it.

birtikidis
03-09-2011, 08:14 PM
yea but at the same time, does Ben have a DOMINANT running back that carries the team when we need it? a guy like Bettis in his prime or Foster/Bam morris? not really, actually his run game has been pretty inconsistent.
We have a true three down back who, in many ways, is more talented than Bettis, Foster or Bam. He's certainly more complete.

The problem with our run game is our OC's terrible system for running. Running is just for show in his offense and Ben couldn't notice or hit a checkdown tight end or running back if his life depended on it. We have no fullback like the previous systems either.

I totally agree, Ben would be better in a run/play action system that used his athleticism to roll him out and make his reads easier and more reactionary than needing to diagnose coverage at the line, something Ben clearly doesn't do well.
Block, he Mendy may eventually be that dominant player, but he's not quite there yet. We had Bettis in his PRIME. A HOF running back in his prime.
but you bring up a good point. those qb's also had better OC's then Ben. so, there's a bunch of reasons why Ben is in a worse situation then those guys.

Crash
03-09-2011, 08:15 PM
The problem with our run game is our OC's terrible system for running.

YOU are the person who calls the two TE set the best in football 43.

So if you want to rip Arians? Rip yourself.

Crash
03-09-2011, 08:18 PM
If you don't think our teams reputation from the 70's on has something to do with the opinion some have of Ben that is your right.

The reputation of Ben has EVERYTHING to do with the opinion of Ben. I don't disagree with that at all.

YOU my friend, no one else, tried to say that Ben was drafted by a good team, when in reality, he and Peyton Manning were drafted by teams that went through the identical same periods of play for the previous 6 seasons.

But somehow Peyton was drafted by a doormat, and Ben was drafted by the 1976 Steelers. :roll:

Crash
03-09-2011, 08:19 PM
Ben in 2004 was in a run based and controlled system.

Wrong. They would pass to get leads, then run to protect them.

Have to watch the games, not the stats sheets 43.

Blockhead
03-09-2011, 08:19 PM
Block, he Mendy may eventually be that dominant player, but he's not quite there yet. We had Bettis in his PRIME. A HOF running back in his prime.
but you bring up a good point. those qb's also had better OC's then Ben. so, there's a bunch of reasons why Ben is in a worse situation then those guys.

You can't compare the systems. Mendenhall, with a FB and consistent rushing attempts, would be and is fantastic. Arians thinks Ben is Manning and allows him to throw it all over the place, in the worst situations, in completely transparent sets. More power running, more play action, limit Ben's reads to half the field, allow him to rollout and not have to diagnose in the pocket as much and our offense would fly, be more consistent and Ben would take less hits and sacks!

feltdizz
03-09-2011, 08:20 PM
yea but at the same time, does Ben have a DOMINANT running back that carries the team when we need it? a guy like Bettis in his prime or Foster/Bam morris? not really, actually his run game has been pretty inconsistent.
We have a true three down back who, in many ways, is more talented than Bettis, Foster or Bam. He's certainly more complete.

The problem with our run game is our OC's terrible system for running. Running is just for show in his offense and Ben couldn't notice or hit a checkdown tight end or running back if his life depended on it. We have no fullback like the previous systems either.

I totally agree, Ben would be better in a run/play action system that used his athleticism to roll him out and make his reads easier and more reactionary than needing to diagnose coverage at the line, something Ben clearly doesn't do well.
Block, he Mendy may eventually be that dominant player, but he's not quite there yet. We had Bettis in his PRIME. A HOF running back in his prime.
but you bring up a good point. those qb's also had better OC's then Ben. so, there's a bunch of reasons why Ben is in a worse situation then those guys.

If Mendenhall ran like he did in the playoffs he is there...

Blockhead
03-09-2011, 08:22 PM
Ben in 2004 was in a run based and controlled system.

Wrong. They would pass to get leads, then run to protect them.

Have to watch the games, not the stats sheets 43.
I'll leave you to your fantasyland. We asked Ben to make a few plays a game, often in the first half, then took the air out of the ball as we had a lead and ran it, controlling the clock and not allowing more passing to screw it up. Teams consistently stacked 8 in the box, making passing the right move and the easier move. Why would we keep passing with a lead? That's the stupid crap we do now that gives leads back.

Crash
03-09-2011, 08:26 PM
Why would we keep passing with a lead? That's the stupid crap we do now that gives leads back.

Wrong again 43, the Steelers give leads back, especially in 2009, because the defense gives up too many scores RIGHT AFTER the Steelers score themselves.

Again, you have to watch the games.

birtikidis
03-09-2011, 08:29 PM
Block, he Mendy may eventually be that dominant player, but he's not quite there yet. We had Bettis in his PRIME. A HOF running back in his prime.
but you bring up a good point. those qb's also had better OC's then Ben. so, there's a bunch of reasons why Ben is in a worse situation then those guys.

You can't compare the systems. Mendenhall, with a FB and consistent rushing attempts, would be and is fantastic. Arians thinks Ben is Manning and allows him to throw it all over the place, in the worst situations, in completely transparent sets. More power running, more play action, limit Ben's reads to half the field, allow him to rollout and not have to diagnose in the pocket as much and our offense would fly, be more consistent and Ben would take less hits and sacks!
Thank you for proving my point. we don't have any balance whatsoever. I wouldn't limit ben at all. that is just dumb.
and who ever said it.. IF Mendy runs like he did in the playoffs, he is there. I agree. now imagine Px2 leading the way...

Blockhead
03-09-2011, 08:33 PM
Why would we keep passing with a lead? That's the stupid crap we do now that gives leads back.

Wrong again 43, the Steelers give leads back, especially in 2009, because the defense gives up too many scores RIGHT AFTER the Steelers score themselves.

Again, you have to watch the games.
The offense has a lot to do with it. Short fields, not moving the ball late in games, like the 2008 SB. First three series of the 4th quarter, no first downs and negative yards, yet you blame the defense? Learn the game!!!!!!!

You're right, watch the games.

Blockhead
03-09-2011, 08:34 PM
[Thank you for proving my point. we don't have any balance whatsoever. I wouldn't limit ben at all. that is just dumb.
and who ever said it.. IF Mendy runs like he did in the playoffs, he is there. I agree. now imagine Px2 leading the way...

The more we allow Ben to think in the pocket, the easier we make it for oppposing defenses and the more our offense is inconsistent.

Crash
03-09-2011, 08:36 PM
Mendenhall, with a FB and consistent rushing attempts, would be and is fantastic.

Mendenhall had 82 more carries this season than he had in 2009.

And yet, his big play ability would be and is worse this year.

Once again, facts prove you wrong.

Blockhead
03-09-2011, 08:37 PM
Mendenhall, with a FB and consistent rushing attempts, would be and is fantastic.

Mendenhall had 82 more carries this season than he had in 2009.

And yet, his big play ability would be and is worse this year.

Once again, facts prove you wrong.

Much to do with the system. Learn the game!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

feltdizz
03-09-2011, 08:48 PM
If you don't think our teams reputation from the 70's on has something to do with the opinion some have of Ben that is your right.

The reputation of Ben has EVERYTHING to do with the opinion of Ben. I don't disagree with that at all.

YOU my friend, no one else, tried to say that Ben was drafted by a good team, when in reality, he and Peyton Manning were drafted by teams that went through the identical same periods of play for the previous 6 seasons.

But somehow Peyton was drafted by a doormat, and Ben was drafted by the 1976 Steelers. :roll:

The Colts were damn near a doormat when Peyton was drafted. Please list off the pro bowlers and all pro players form their roster.

We had Bettis, Kreider, Hines, Plax, Faneca, Hartings, Marvel, El, Porter, Troy, A. Smith, Hampton, Farrior, , Hope, Foote

I think you are the only one on the planet who thinks the 1998 Colts had the talent the 2004 Steelers had.


We had 13 years of Cowher + Whiz and Lebeau
Colts had a 1st year HC in Jim Mora, Arians, and who the hell knows who for an OC and DC

Crash
03-09-2011, 09:01 PM
The Steelers take the lead in KC, up 7 points.

Next KC drive:

Eight plays 91 yards, touchdown.

The Steelers take the lead against the Raiders.

Next Raider drive:

Three plays, 81 yards, touchdown.

The Steelers take the lead again.

Next Raider drive:

10 plays 88 yards, touchdown.

The Steelers score a TD to take the lead in Baltimore (No Ben by the way).

Next Ravens drive:

10 plays 84 yards, game tying FG.

Jeff Reed misses a 4th quarter FG up 7 in Chicago.

Next Bears drive?

9 plays, 72 yards, touchdown.

The Steelers up 20-9 in the 4th punt the ball to the Bengals in Cincy (This after trying to run the ball twice doing what you idiots want).

Next Bengals drive:

6 plays 85 yards, touchdown to cut the lead to five points.

The Steelers run twice from their own 38 yard line, punt up 20-15.

Next Bengals drive:

16 plays 71 yards, touchdown.

Where are these short field drives that hurts the defense 43?

Crash
03-09-2011, 09:03 PM
We had 13 years of Cowher + Whiz and Lebeau

Um, LeBeau was not on the Steelers staff from 1997-2003.

Learn the basics first OK?

Crash
03-09-2011, 09:06 PM
The Colts were damn near a doormat when Peyton was drafted.

Then how did they make the playoffs 2 of the previous 3 seasons prior to his arrival, just like the Steelers before Ben?

It's the same situation.

Blockhead
03-09-2011, 09:12 PM
The Colts were damn near a doormat when Peyton was drafted.

Then how did they make the playoffs 2 of the previous 3 seasons prior to his arrival, just like the Steelers before Ben?

It's the same situation.
I think you are smart enough to know it was not the same situation. Based purely on that one stat, you may assume that but you'd be very incorrect.

Crash
03-09-2011, 09:38 PM
I think you are smart enough to know it was not the same situation. Based purely on that one stat, you may assume that but you'd be very incorrect.

BOTH teams 4 of 6 seasons out of the playoffs.

BOTH teams, 2 of 3 seasons in the playoffs.

Then the QBs showed up.

Sorry, if you guys want to prop up Manning, the same must be done for Ben.

Just the facts boys.

Blockhead
03-09-2011, 09:51 PM
Okay, I take it back. You're not smart enough to see that they were much different teams, in many ways.

My bad.

SteelTorch
03-10-2011, 12:21 AM
OBVIOUS TROLL IS TROLLING.

Scalaid6
03-10-2011, 05:23 AM
Everyone is a Troll when they have a negative opinion on Ben. Amazing.

EVERYONE knows that the Primary reason the Colts, Pats, Saints, Packers and Chargers are relevant is because of their qbs.

The Steelers are NOT elite because of Ben Roethlisberger. His teammates dont even like the guy, THAT SAYS A LOT. When he leaves (and he will) you will see a lot of stories come out like Pierce on ESPN talking badly about Tiki. You NEVER heard that while Tiki was on the team. It will be the same with us.

Ben Roethlisbers has ONE TEAM MVP and that says a lot.

If Manning, Brady,Rivers or Brees had some off field problems there is NO WAY their teammates would strip them of captaincy. NO WAY. But the Steelers dont like Ben anyways (NOTICE NOT ONE PLAYER CAME TO HIS DEFENSE WHEN HE WAS IN GA????_

And what I mean by "come to his defense" I mean NOT ONE of his teammates said "Ben doesnt have to r*pe chicks, he has women all over him. No way do I believe these accusations". How come NOT ONE teammate stated anything close to that? I'll tell you why because they dont like him. If the Steeler players dont like him then thats a PROBLEM.

You heard what Goodell said too and I dont for ONE MINUTE believe the PR spin later by King and Goodell stating "I meant players from other teams" LOL YEAH RIGHT!! Why would Goodell expect players from OTHER TEAMS to stick up for an opposing player? THINK ABOUT IT!! Goodell was talking about OUR PLAYERS make no mistake about it.

The recent stories about Ben "Changing" by his teammates substantiate at my point. You dont hear stories about Hines "changing", Mendenhall "changing", Big Snack "changing" ONLY BEN. Why? Because he was an *SS to his teammmates in the past.

Scalaid6
03-10-2011, 05:31 AM
Ben has 144 TD passes after seven seasons in the league.

Brady after 7 threw 146.
You're including his rookie year, in which he didn't play.

When you look at his first 7 years of actually seeing the field, he threw 197 tds compared to Ben's 146.
Crash has a bias. Of course Brady didnt play his rookie season and he posts combarble stats like he did. After 7 years Brady was CONSIDERED A HALL OF FAMER and Ben ISNT.

FACT

Scalaid6
03-10-2011, 06:05 AM
Crash can throw out all the insignificant stats that he likes. Fact is Ben pads his stats vs BAD teams. He does little (for the most part) against the good teams. When we play the Pats, Colts, Saints and Packers (500 game included) there is no doubt who the better qb is on th field.

What is Bens record Head to Head vs Manning? LOSING

Vs Brady? LOSING

Vs Brees? WINNING (2-1)

Bens wins can be attributed to being on the better team. Its like Ike Taylor boasting that he is better than Namdi because his team has won more games and he has 2 rings.

Ben is so good that he got outplayed by Leftwich in 08


vs. Skins- Leftwich 7-10 129 yards 1 TD 145 rating
- Big Ben 5-17 50 1 INT 15.1 rating

vs. Browns Leftwich- 7-12 80 yards 78.5 rating 1 Td run
Ben-9-14 110 yards 1 INT 58.6 rating

vs. Eagles Big Ben 13-25 131 yards 1 INT 50.6 rating
Leftwich 4-7 60 yards 85.4 rating

Scarletfire1970
03-10-2011, 06:11 AM
When the hell this this retard join this site? He has ruined every board he has been on.

ScoreKeeper
03-10-2011, 06:56 AM
Between him and Blockhead, this site is being trashed. Damn shame too.

Scalaid6
03-10-2011, 07:01 AM
Anytime anyone criticizes Ben they are a TROLL, RETARD, MORON or Non Steeler fan.

You guys need to quit acting like GIRLS.

The Steeler FRANCHISE has been TRASHED thx to Ben Roethlisberger- FACT

SteelTorch
03-10-2011, 07:40 AM
Anytime anyone criticizes Ben they are a TROLL, RETARD, MORON or Non Steeler fan.

You guys need to quit acting like GIRLS.

The Steeler FRANCHISE has been TRASHED thx to Ben Roethlisberger- FACT

OBVIOUS TROLL IS TROLLING.

Scalaid6
03-10-2011, 08:18 AM
TROLL IS TROLLING

LOL

eniparadoxgma
03-10-2011, 09:55 AM
http://img849.imageshack.us/img849/2486/obvioustroll652.jpg (http://img849.imageshack.us/i/obvioustroll652.jpg/)

Scalaid6
03-10-2011, 12:32 PM
Fact is Ben and Neil O'donnell are the only two Steeler Qb's to lose a SB

How is Neil a goat but Ben isnt?

ikestops85
03-10-2011, 12:40 PM
Fact is Ben and Neil O'donnell are the only two Steeler Qb's to lose a SB

How is Neil a goat but Ben isnt?

http://www.picpop.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10158/bleachjuice.jpg

Scalaid6
03-10-2011, 01:34 PM
Again, How is Odonnell a goat but Ben isnt?

Flasteel
03-10-2011, 01:50 PM
http://images1.memegenerator.net/ImageMacro/5046860/I-AM-TrollFace.jpg?imageSize=Large&generatorName=Troll-Face

feltdizz
03-10-2011, 01:53 PM
We had 13 years of Cowher + Whiz and Lebeau

Um, LeBeau was not on the Steelers staff from 1997-2003.

Learn the basics first OK?
Um... When Ben was drafted in 2004 we had Lebeau

I said 13 years of cowher plus whiz and Lebeau

Crash
03-10-2011, 02:04 PM
Whiz? 2004 was Whiz's FIRST SEASON, as an OC in the NFL, a season that if Cowher had his way Ben Roethlisberger would have spent it on the bench.

So what exactly did you know about him as an OC before Ben took one snap other than the fact that he got a promotion from TE coach?

Sad how you guys are trying to downplay Ben's career.

Blockhead
03-10-2011, 02:45 PM
Whiz? 2004 was Whiz's FIRST SEASON, as an OC in the NFL, a season that if Cowher had his way Ben Roethlisberger would have spent it on the bench.

Didn't you mean Faneca, not Cowher?

If not, link?

Crash
03-10-2011, 02:48 PM
Whiz? 2004 was Whiz's FIRST SEASON, as an OC in the NFL, a season that if Cowher had his way Ben Roethlisberger would have spent it on the bench.

Didn't you mean Faneca, not Cowher?

If not, link?

Who started the 2004 opener again?

Hint: It wasn't Ben.

Blockhead
03-10-2011, 02:56 PM
Whiz? 2004 was Whiz's FIRST SEASON, as an OC in the NFL, a season that if Cowher had his way Ben Roethlisberger would have spent it on the bench.

Didn't you mean Faneca, not Cowher?

If not, link?

Who started the 2004 opener again?

Hint: It wasn't Ben.
Who started game 1 isn't what you stated. As stated above, you stated Bill desired Ben never see the field. I have never heard anyone but Faneca suggest or say that.

Also, Faneca felt so strongly because we had a championship caliber team, a belief that is in direct contrast to your misbelief that we were an awful team before Ben arrived with his halo and wings.

Crash
03-10-2011, 02:59 PM
Whiz? 2004 was Whiz's FIRST SEASON, as an OC in the NFL, a season that if Cowher had his way Ben Roethlisberger would have spent it on the bench.

Didn't you mean Faneca, not Cowher?

If not, link?

Who started the 2004 opener again?

Hint: It wasn't Ben.
Who started game 1 isn't what you stated. As stated above, you stated Bill desired Ben never see the field

If you want to hang your head on scrap time? Good for you.

Your boy preferred Tommy Maddox, hell your boy preferred Maddox AND Charlie Batch over Ben. Ben only started 15 games as a rookie because Batch, and then Maddox were injured.

Once again, you stick to trolling, I'll stick to facts.