PDA

View Full Version : West Coast Offense coming to the AFC North



Oviedo
03-07-2011, 10:47 AM
Something to think about and our less than mediocre secondary. Will LeBeau adjust or just "trust his system." Obviously Harbaugh is thinking about it.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/features/rumors



With the dual hirings of Cleveland Browns head coach Pat Shurmur and Cincinnati Bengals offensive coordinator Jay Gruden this offseason, there could be two new practitioners of the fabled West Coast offense in the AFC North in 2011. But according to what Baltimore Ravens head coach John Harbaugh has said, it won't bring about massive changes to how his team plays defense.

"I had a chance to see it close hand in Philadelphia (under Andy Reid) for a number of years," Harbaugh said, per the Baltimore Sun, indicating that it's nothing he hasn't seen before. "Everybody around the league's doing it. It's a great offense. It's a ball-control offense. It expands on the running game with a controlled passing attack."

Though he added that facing these offenses "will be a big challenge for us," it's nothing the team hasn't seen before from other teams in seasons past. There is a caveat: when run well, the system can excel against the style of D that's found elsewhere in the division:- Tim Kavanagh



And James Walker's quote hammers home the point


James Walker
Take the last game played as evidence

"The Green Bay Packers had success in the Super Bowl against Pittsburgh, so there is proof it can work."

Notleadpoisoned
03-07-2011, 11:21 AM
You gotta have the right personnel to run the WC offense effectively and at this time the Bengals and Browns simply do not.

SteelBucks
03-07-2011, 11:24 AM
There is no reason to adjust the "system", but we can all agree that we need an upgrade at CB for it to work.

ikestops85
03-07-2011, 11:38 AM
Didn't DL design the zone blitz to combat the WCO? That's what I always heard.

Mister Pittsburgh
03-07-2011, 12:06 PM
you need a qb to run that offensive system. those two teams have crap for QB's.

Oviedo
03-07-2011, 12:15 PM
you need a qb to run that offensive system. those two teams have crap for QB's.

I disagree about Cleveland. I think Colt McCoy will prove to be the second best QB out of the 2010 draft. He is perfect for the West Coast. He is mobile and very, very accurate. I think he will be a thorn in our sides for years to come.

Flasteel
03-07-2011, 12:52 PM
Didn't DL design the zone blitz to combat the WCO? That's what I always heard.

He did, but that was against Bill Walsh's WCO. His offense was almost always 2 WRs, TE, FB, & RB and relied on quick precision and timing. The zone blitz was designed to confuse and disrupt that timing by dropping guys underneath that you didn't expect to be there and blitzing guys you didn't anticipate picking up.

Green Bay (and other teams that have torched us) put 3 and 4 WR sets on the field to spread us out and put our nickle and dime defenses on the field. Instead of timing, there's a lot more shotgun and looking for the single coverage match-up you want. QBs who are accurate and can read defenses quickly - especially those who have the receivers - are like kryptonite.

Getting a corner who can press and play man opposite Taylor is absolutely critical, if we are going to get past the teams that can spread us out.

BradshawsHairdresser
03-07-2011, 12:57 PM
Didn't DL design the zone blitz to combat the WCO? That's what I always heard.

He did, but that was against Bill Walsh's WCO. His offense was almost always 2 WRs, TE, FB, & RB and relied on quick precision and timing. The zone blitz was designed to confuse and disrupt that timing by dropping guys underneath that you didn't expect to be there and blitzing guys you didn't anticipate picking up.

Green Bay (and other teams that have torched us) put 3 and 4 WR sets on the field to spread us out and put our nickle and dime defenses on the field. Instead of timing, there's a lot more shotgun and looking for the single coverage match-up you want. QBs who are accurate and can read defenses quickly - especially those who have the receivers - are like kryptonite.

Getting a corner who can press and play man opposite Taylor is absolutely critical, if we are going to get past the teams that can spread us out.

You are assuming that Taylor will be with the Steelers. I'm not. He is a free agent now, I expect he will be in demand, and will likely go where he can get more money. If that happens, we will need to get TWO corners who can press and play man. That's not apt to happen in one off-season.

Flasteel
03-07-2011, 01:23 PM
Didn't DL design the zone blitz to combat the WCO? That's what I always heard.

He did, but that was against Bill Walsh's WCO. His offense was almost always 2 WRs, TE, FB, & RB and relied on quick precision and timing. The zone blitz was designed to confuse and disrupt that timing by dropping guys underneath that you didn't expect to be there and blitzing guys you didn't anticipate picking up.

Green Bay (and other teams that have torched us) put 3 and 4 WR sets on the field to spread us out and put our nickle and dime defenses on the field. Instead of timing, there's a lot more shotgun and looking for the single coverage match-up you want. QBs who are accurate and can read defenses quickly - especially those who have the receivers - are like kryptonite.

Getting a corner who can press and play man opposite Taylor is absolutely critical, if we are going to get past the teams that can spread us out.

You are assuming that Taylor will be with the Steelers. I'm not. He is a free agent now, I expect he will be in demand, and will likely go where he can get more money. If that happens, we will need to get TWO corners who can press and play man. That's not apt to happen in one off-season.

Which is why I am comfortable in assuming. :D Ike will be back...it's not like he's going to open it up to the highest bidder or hold us hostage due to our current CB situation.

I am sure this will be a situation where the player really wants to stay, the team really wants to keep him, and something fair to both sides will be worked out in the end.

At least I'm hoping this is how it will be. :D

Oviedo
03-07-2011, 01:24 PM
Didn't DL design the zone blitz to combat the WCO? That's what I always heard.

He did, but that was against Bill Walsh's WCO. His offense was almost always 2 WRs, TE, FB, & RB and relied on quick precision and timing. The zone blitz was designed to confuse and disrupt that timing by dropping guys underneath that you didn't expect to be there and blitzing guys you didn't anticipate picking up.

Green Bay (and other teams that have torched us) put 3 and 4 WR sets on the field to spread us out and put our nickle and dime defenses on the field. Instead of timing, there's a lot more shotgun and looking for the single coverage match-up you want. QBs who are accurate and can read defenses quickly - especially those who have the receivers - are like kryptonite.

Getting a corner who can press and play man opposite Taylor is absolutely critical, if we are going to get past the teams that can spread us out.

You are assuming that Taylor will be with the Steelers. I'm not. He is a free agent now, I expect he will be in demand, and will likely go where he can get more money. If that happens, we will need to get TWO corners who can press and play man. That's not apt to happen in one off-season.

Lose Taylor and we are toast. None of the other CBs on our roster are close to him talent wise and if we can't afford to pay him we aren't getting another good one via free agency. Drafting won't help either because we know they won't play while they "learn the system."

Taylor is as close to a must sign as any player I can remember in recent history. Our defensive coaches have developed NOTHING in our secondary that would be able to step in.

Mister Pittsburgh
03-07-2011, 01:43 PM
you need a qb to run that offensive system. those two teams have crap for QB's.

I disagree about Cleveland. I think Colt McCoy will prove to be the second best QB out of the 2010 draft. He is perfect for the West Coast. He is mobile and very, very accurate. I think he will be a thorn in our sides for years to come.

I'll tell you what, I agree. Totally forgot about Colt McCoy.

feltdizz
03-07-2011, 01:45 PM
There is no reason to adjust the "system", but we can all agree that we need an upgrade at CB for it to work.

I think it needs to be simplified. I know it works well once the players understand it but it shouldn't take 4 years to grasp it.

Tyrone Carter is proof. He was a prime example of a DB without NFL talent keeping a roster spot because he knew the system. Guys are coming to our team with 5 times his talent and can't see the field because the can't grasp the playbook.

Imagine how good our DB play would be if we had young legs on the field.

Crash
03-07-2011, 01:48 PM
The "system being too hard" is coach-speak for LeBeau to rely on vets instead of having to play young players.

I mean how hard can it be? You're a DB, you line up with a WR, and you cover him.

The Packers didn't seem to have that problem in 2010 and they run the same system.

feltdizz
03-07-2011, 01:49 PM
Didn't DL design the zone blitz to combat the WCO? That's what I always heard.

He did, but that was against Bill Walsh's WCO. His offense was almost always 2 WRs, TE, FB, & RB and relied on quick precision and timing. The zone blitz was designed to confuse and disrupt that timing by dropping guys underneath that you didn't expect to be there and blitzing guys you didn't anticipate picking up.

Green Bay (and other teams that have torched us) put 3 and 4 WR sets on the field to spread us out and put our nickle and dime defenses on the field. Instead of timing, there's a lot more shotgun and looking for the single coverage match-up you want. QBs who are accurate and can read defenses quickly - especially those who have the receivers - are like kryptonite.

Getting a corner who can press and play man opposite Taylor is absolutely critical, if we are going to get past the teams that can spread us out.

You are assuming that Taylor will be with the Steelers. I'm not. He is a free agent now, I expect he will be in demand, and will likely go where he can get more money. If that happens, we will need to get TWO corners who can press and play man. That's not apt to happen in one off-season.

I don't think the demand for Taylor will be anywhere near what Steeler fans think it will be.

feltdizz
03-07-2011, 01:53 PM
The "system being too hard" is coach-speak for LeBeau to rely on vets instead of having to play young players.

I mean how hard can it be? You're a DB, you line up with a WR, and you cover him.

The Packers didn't seem to have that problem in 2010 and they run the same system.

We aren't the Packers...

Oviedo
03-07-2011, 02:16 PM
The "system being too hard" is coach-speak for LeBeau to rely on vets instead of having to play young players.

I mean how hard can it be? You're a DB, you line up with a WR, and you cover him.

The Packers didn't seem to have that problem in 2010 and they run the same system.

We aren't the Packers...

Capers seems to be better at teaching "the system." He transitioned the Packers to a 3-4 and won the Super Bowl in 2 years with YOUNG players like Raji, Hawk, Matthews, Shields, etc.

He can do it but a "genius" can't. Maybe the "genius" is trying to be too smart and only outsmarting his own players? Albert Einstein probably wouldn't be able to teach high school physics either.

feltdizz
03-07-2011, 02:20 PM
The "system being too hard" is coach-speak for LeBeau to rely on vets instead of having to play young players.

I mean how hard can it be? You're a DB, you line up with a WR, and you cover him.

The Packers didn't seem to have that problem in 2010 and they run the same system.

We aren't the Packers...

Capers seems to be better at teaching "the system." He transitioned the Packers to a 3-4 and won the Super Bowl in 2 years with YOUNG players like Raji, Hawk, Matthews, Shields, etc.

He can do it but a "genius" can't. Maybe the "genius" is trying to be too smart and only outsmarting his own players?

I think it's the amount of plays in the system that hurts our DB's development.

Shrink the book and get these kids on the field.

BradshawsHairdresser
03-07-2011, 04:30 PM
I don't think the demand for Taylor will be anywhere near what Steeler fans think it will be.

From another thread:


Taylor had no intention to reach deal with Steelers before CBA deadline

Sat, Mar 5th, 2011 by DePaoli


Steelers Free Agency Buzz

The Pittsburgh Steelers, as expected, did not reach a deal with cornerback Ike Taylor before yesterday's deadline and once a new CBA is in place, the Steelers No. 1 cornerback will become a free agent.

Following a meeting between high powered agent Joel Segal and front office executive Omar Khan at the combine, what's been relayed to me for over a week now is that Taylor expressed to the Steelers that he has all intentions on testing the free agent market.

Those in the media calling Taylor re-signing with Pittsburgh a slam dunk due to Taylor wanting to stay in Pittsburgh, are said to be a "bit too optimistic" on that front.
The cornerback position has become a premium in the NFL with over 8 cornerbacks making at least $9 million in 2010 (including all bonuses).

So where does Taylors future in Pittsburgh stand?

In 2006, Taylor received a four year extension worth $22.5 million from the Steelers with $6.4 million in guarantees.

According to sources, Taylor is seeking over $10 million in guaranteed money on at least a four year deal and word around the league is that Taylor's camp believes at least two specific teams are prepared to make a "big run" at Taylor.

Leigh Bodden's four-year, $22 million agreement to remain with the New England Patriots last off-season, that included $10 million in guaranteed money and $14 million over the first two years of the deal, will just be the starting point for Taylor's camp.
One NFL agent predicted to me that Taylor will land a 4 year deal worth $24-$27 million with $12-$13 million in guaranteed money on the open market.

Just because free agency has been put on the back burner for now due to the CBA, doesn't mean tampering at the combine between agents and teams all of a sudden went away this off-season.

http://insidepittsburghsports.com/story ... ine/35800/

BradshawsHairdresser
03-07-2011, 04:36 PM
Lose Taylor and we are toast. None of the other CBs on our roster are close to him talent wise and if we can't afford to pay him we aren't getting another good one via free agency. Drafting won't help either because we know they won't play while they "learn the system."

Taylor is as close to a must sign as any player I can remember in recent history. Our defensive coaches have developed NOTHING in our secondary that would be able to step in.

$$$$$
So again I ask, why didn't the Steelers tag Taylor?

He is a must-sign. The transition tag would have paid him the average of the top 10 salaries at the position. Maybe a bit overpriced, but not that bad considering his play and his present value to the team. If someone else made him an offer that was outrageous, we could have at least gotten a couple high draft picks out of the deal.

The way things stand now, he can walk away and the Steelers would get NOTHING.

feltdizz
03-07-2011, 04:59 PM
I don't think the demand for Taylor will be anywhere near what Steeler fans think it will be.

From another thread:


Taylor had no intention to reach deal with Steelers before CBA deadline

Sat, Mar 5th, 2011 by DePaoli


Steelers Free Agency Buzz

The Pittsburgh Steelers, as expected, did not reach a deal with cornerback Ike Taylor before yesterday's deadline and once a new CBA is in place, the Steelers No. 1 cornerback will become a free agent.

Following a meeting between high powered agent Joel Segal and front office executive Omar Khan at the combine, what's been relayed to me for over a week now is that Taylor expressed to the Steelers that he has all intentions on testing the free agent market.

Those in the media calling Taylor re-signing with Pittsburgh a slam dunk due to Taylor wanting to stay in Pittsburgh, are said to be a "bit too optimistic" on that front.
The cornerback position has become a premium in the NFL with over 8 cornerbacks making at least $9 million in 2010 (including all bonuses).

So where does Taylors future in Pittsburgh stand?

In 2006, Taylor received a four year extension worth $22.5 million from the Steelers with $6.4 million in guarantees.

According to sources, Taylor is seeking over $10 million in guaranteed money on at least a four year deal and word around the league is that Taylor's camp believes at least two specific teams are prepared to make a "big run" at Taylor.

Leigh Bodden's four-year, $22 million agreement to remain with the New England Patriots last off-season, that included $10 million in guaranteed money and $14 million over the first two years of the deal, will just be the starting point for Taylor's camp.
One NFL agent predicted to me that Taylor will land a 4 year deal worth $24-$27 million with $12-$13 million in guaranteed money on the open market.

Just because free agency has been put on the back burner for now due to the CBA, doesn't mean tampering at the combine between agents and teams all of a sudden went away this off-season.

http://insidepittsburghsports.com/story ... ine/35800/

Taylor's camp would be a fool not to say they have a team or 2 who are interested.

I said in another thread AZ is probably the team willing to throw money at him.

I wonder who the other team is?

feltdizz
03-07-2011, 05:01 PM
Lose Taylor and we are toast. None of the other CBs on our roster are close to him talent wise and if we can't afford to pay him we aren't getting another good one via free agency. Drafting won't help either because we know they won't play while they "learn the system."

Taylor is as close to a must sign as any player I can remember in recent history. Our defensive coaches have developed NOTHING in our secondary that would be able to step in.

$$$$$
So again I ask, why didn't the Steelers tag Taylor?

He is a must-sign. The transition tag would have paid him the average of the top 10 salaries at the position. Maybe a bit overpriced, but not that bad considering his play and his present value to the team. If someone else made him an offer that was outrageous, we could have at least gotten a couple high draft picks out of the deal.

The way things stand now, he can walk away and the Steelers would get NOTHING.

we aren't going to pay Ike that kind of money at his age. I wouldn't..

I like Ike but I don't think our team will fall off a cliff without him.

ScoreKeeper
03-07-2011, 05:14 PM
A couple thoughts:

The WCO will not be that big a problem. I have only said this, maybe a few times ever, but GB did not "beat" us. We accomplished that feat ourselves.

Colt McCoy is going to be a very good QB. With decent coaching and a GM putting some pieces in place, the Stains will be back.

Ike is very under-rated. Always has been and still is. Without him, we are in for some very rough times against any team with a decent QB. For those that say Ike is not a very good CB: please name me 10 better at this point. Take it as 2 CB's for each team giving you 64 to choose from. Ike on the market will be highly sought after. He is always on the number one WR and has done a very nice job thoughout his career.

feltdizz
03-07-2011, 07:20 PM
A couple thoughts:

The WCO will not be that big a problem. I have only said this, maybe a few times ever, but GB did not "beat" us. We accomplished that feat ourselves.

Colt McCoy is going to be a very good QB. With decent coaching and a GM putting some pieces in place, the Stains will be back.

Ike is very under-rated. Always has been and still is. Without him, we are in for some very rough times against any team with a decent QB. For those that say Ike is not a very good CB: please name me 10 better at this point. Take it as 2 CB's for each team giving you 64 to choose from. Ike on the market will be highly sought after. He is always on the number one WR and has done a very nice job thoughout his career.

In no particular order....

Leon Hall, Cincinnati Bengals
Cortland Finnegan, Tennessee Titans
Dunta Robinson, Atlanta Falcons
Domonique Rodgers-Cromartie, Arizona Cardinals
Champ Bailey, Denver Broncos
Jabari Greer, New Orleans Saints
Asante Samuel, Philadelphia Eagles
Nnamdi Asomugha, Oakland Raiders
Charles Woodson, Green Bay Packers
Darrelle Revis, Jets
Corey Webster, Giants
Antoine Winfield, Minnesota Vikings
DeAngelo Hall, Washington Redskins


Ike is a top 10 FA but he isn't top 10 in the NFL.

and GB beat us... don't do the Harbaugh "we outplayed them" line.

NorthCoast
03-07-2011, 09:11 PM
The Jets have shown on to defeat a power-throwing offense. What does a team need? One complete shut-down corner (Revis), one above average corner (Cromartie), a safety that can make plays on the ball and come up to cover short stuff. All need to be able to play man cover for 80% of the game.

You could argue the Steelers have two out of three pieces, but the missing piece is causing us to avoid the last piece (man cover).

RuthlessBurgher
03-08-2011, 01:41 PM
I mean how hard can it be? You're a DB, you line up with a WR, and you cover him.

Playing man is only one part of the equation. There are also zone situations in which each corner is responsible for any pattern that comes into the flats on their side of the field while the safeties are manning deep halves of the field. There are other situations in which the corners are responsible for deep thirds of the field with the FS playing the middle third center field deep zone. There are other situations in which the CB man who is blitzing. How often is a corner in our system told, "#81 is your guy...just cover him."???

feltdizz
03-08-2011, 01:44 PM
I mean how hard can it be? You're a DB, you line up with a WR, and you cover him.

Playing man is only one part of the equation. There are also zone situations in which each corner is responsible for any pattern that comes into the flats on their side of the field while the safeties are manning deep halves of the field. There are other situations in which the corners are responsible for deep thirds of the field with the FS playing the middle third center field deep zone. There are other situations in which the CB man who is blitzing. How often is a corner in our system told, "#81 is your guy...just cover him."???

and we wonder why guys can't see the field.

Oviedo
03-08-2011, 01:46 PM
The Jets have shown on to defeat a power-throwing offense. What does a team need? One complete shut-down corner (Revis), one above average corner (Cromartie), a safety that can make plays on the ball and come up to cover short stuff. All need to be able to play man cover for 80% of the game.

You could argue the Steelers have two out of three pieces, but the missing piece is causing us to avoid the last piece (man cover).

How about one and a half out of three. Ever think we will see a healthy Troy for a entire season?