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Steelers>NFL
02-10-2011, 03:46 PM
If this is true, this is NOT good news. And I would begin to question just how good Tomlin really as a coach!
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Steelers lose DBs coach to Arizona
Thursday, February 10, 2011
By Gerry Dulac, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette
The loss of secondary coach Ray Horton to the Arizona Cardinals might be the only change to the Steelers coaching staff for 2011.

Coach Mike Tomlin wants to retain both coordinators who are in the final year of their contracts -- Dick LeBeau on defense and Bruce Arians on offense -- and does not plan changes at any other coaching positions.
Horton, a secondary coach with the Steelers since 2004, was hired as the Cardinals defensive coordinator Wednesday after interviewing in Tempe, Ariz., with Cardinals coach and former Steelers offensive coordinator Ken Whisenhunt.

Horton became the leading candidate when the Steelers prevented linebackers coach Keith Butler from interviewing for that position. Whisenhunt was looking for someone who had worked with LeBeau to run Arizona's 3-4 defense, which ranked 29th in the National Football League in 2010.

Horton has worked with LeBeau for 12 seasons, including five with the Cincinnati Bengals.

Whisenhunt wanted to hire Butler as his defensive coordinator after the 2008 season, but Butler declined the opportunity because he was having hip-replacement surgery and could not devote the necessary time installing the defense with the Cardinals. Instead, Whisenhunt hired Billy Davis, a former Steelers assistant who had worked under Dom Capers, to be defensive coordinator.

Davis was fired last month after the Cardinals finished 5-9 and allowed 434 points, third most in the league. They also had the worst rushing defense in the NFC, allowing an average of 145.2 yards per game -- nearly 83 yards more than the Steelers' league-leading average (62.8).

Horton becomes the fifth former Steelers assistant to join Whisenhunt's staff since he became head coach in 2007.

"We're going to be an aggressive, disciplined, downhill, attacking defense," Horton said at an introductory news conference. "We're going to get after the quarterback. I'm here to say right now, the first call is going to be a blitz, no question about it."

No surgery for Roethlisberger
While players such as Hines Ward (knee, thumb) and Emmanuel Sanders (foot) need surgery to repair injuries, quarterback Ben Roethlisberger said his injured right foot does not need surgery "as of now." Doctors have told him they will let his foot heal without surgery.

Roethlisberger has a fracture in his right foot that was originally detected by the Steelers in the 2007 season -- an injury that occurred years earlier during his childhood. But the fracture healed on its own when protective fibers formed around the bone, creating what is known as "fibrous union." Those fibers were sprained when Roethlisberger injured his foot against the New England Patriots, and, again, against Buffalo.


http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/11041/1124392-66.stm

costanza2k1
02-10-2011, 03:52 PM
Yeah they should fire Tomlin! He keeps BA around and keeps making the SB! Fire him now.

Oviedo
02-10-2011, 03:54 PM
So Tomlin is now a bad coach because he doesn't do what you want? Ah OK :roll: :roll:

I find it strange throughout the play offs and leading up to the Super Bowl all the "talking heads" and former players/coach were praising Arians but by all means lets defer to the experts who watch games on TV.

IF he stays, that means Tomlins is happy and the Rooneys are happy. No one else really matters. I posted the other day that teams are not going to change coordinators with the labor situation because in all liklihood they are not going to be able to work with players to introduce new systems or review playbooks. The operative word for this off-season is status quo.

ScoreKeeper
02-10-2011, 03:57 PM
Without a new CBA and not knowing if/when the season will start, this is not the year to change coordinators. If the season starts late you want as much continuity as possible.

Crash
02-10-2011, 03:58 PM
Can someone Nancy Kerrigan Matt Spaeth and David Johnson?

feltdizz
02-10-2011, 04:13 PM
I know people may hate this but....

Ben's SB performance should shut people up about Arians...

I think most BA haters refuse to admit Ben is capable of making mistakes.. he is human. Praising Ben for every TD and bashing BA for every stalled drive doesn't hold water.

We made the SB and it wasn't in spite of BA.

Oviedo
02-10-2011, 04:22 PM
I know people may hate this but....

Ben's SB performance should shut people up about Arians...

I think most BA haters refuse to admit Ben is capable of making mistakes.. he is human. Praising Ben for every TD and bashing BA for every stalled drive doesn't hold water.

We made the SB and it wasn't in spite of BA.

People shutting up once and for all woudl be nice but expect the same old "cut and paste" of comments we have heard a thousand times

ScoreKeeper
02-10-2011, 04:24 PM
BA has his good moments but he is not consistant in putting his players in the best position to make plays.

SteelCrazy
02-10-2011, 04:28 PM
People either like or hate Arians, I am on the hate side. With that, I have 1 question for those that like him. Why, after 2 SB's as an OC, and 1 SB as a WR's coach has he never been considered for a head coaching position? He has generated absolutely no interest what so ever by any team. That is almost unheard of, especially in this day and age.

feltdizz
02-10-2011, 04:28 PM
BA has his good moments but he is not consistant in putting his players in the best position to make plays.

please list off a few OC's who are consistent in putting their players in the best position to succeed.

This should be interesting. Of course I expect McCarthy to be at the top. 2 years ago the fans in GB wanted him gone.

ScoreKeeper
02-10-2011, 04:31 PM
BA has his good moments but he is not consistant in putting his players in the best position to make plays.

please list off a few OC's who are consistent in putting their players in the best position to succeed.

This should be interesting. Of course I expect McCarthy to be at the top. 2 years ago the fans in GB wanted him gone.
Are you serious, asking a question like this?

Unreal.

RuthlessBurgher
02-10-2011, 04:32 PM
People either like or hate Arians, I am on the hate side. With that, I have 1 question for those that like him. Why, after 2 SB's as an OC, and 1 SB as a WR's coach has he never been considered for a head coaching position? He has generated absolutely no interest what so ever by any team. That is almost unheard of, especially in this day and age.

He's 58 years old. No one hires guys in their mid-to-late 50's for their first head coaching gig. First-time head coaches are hotshot young coordinators in their mid-to-late 30's or early 40's. The only guys in that are Arians' age who get hired to be a head coach are veteran head coaches with pelts on the wall like Mike Shanahan.

SteelCrazy
02-10-2011, 04:35 PM
People either like or hate Arians, I am on the hate side. With that, I have 1 question for those that like him. Why, after 2 SB's as an OC, and 1 SB as a WR's coach has he never been considered for a head coaching position? He has generated absolutely no interest what so ever by any team. That is almost unheard of, especially in this day and age.

He's 58 years old. No one hires guys in their mid-to-late 50's for their first head coaching gig. First-time head coaches are hotshot young coordinators in their mid-to-late 30's or early 40's. The only guys in that are Arians' age who get hired to be a head coach are veteran head coaches with pelts on the wall like Mike Shanahan.

There's one in every crowd! :Hater

Crash
02-10-2011, 04:44 PM
I know people may hate this but....

Ben's SB performance should shut people up about Arians

Actually the beginning of the SB highlights the problems of Arians.

First drive? First play, the usual WR screen to Ward on the first series. Second play, the sucker draw that hasn't worked all season which failed (again) when Scott failed his block. 3rd and 10 was Brown's mistake.

Second series? Third down, we pass, with THREE TIGHT ENDS on the field. Punt.

Pick 6? Two TE's on the field.

The ONLY sequence where Ben looked well throwing the ball, was the three scoring drives, a FG and two TD dives.

A combined 26 plays on those three drives.

On 20 of them, only one TE was on the field.

Even Aikman down 14 said it "The Steelers talked about spreading the Packers out and throwing, and so far we haven't see much of that"

And like always when we don't, we struggled on offense.

Then we went three wides and got back in the game.

As usual.

Oviedo
02-10-2011, 04:49 PM
People either like or hate Arians, I am on the hate side. With that, I have 1 question for those that like him. Why, after 2 SB's as an OC, and 1 SB as a WR's coach has he never been considered for a head coaching position? He has generated absolutely no interest what so ever by any team. That is almost unheard of, especially in this day and age.

He's 58 years old. No one hires guys in their mid-to-late 50's for their first head coaching gig. First-time head coaches are hotshot young coordinators in their mid-to-late 30's or early 40's. The only guys in that are Arians' age who get hired to be a head coach are veteran head coaches with pelts on the wall like Mike Shanahan.

How much interest has LeBeau generated in the past decade and he is a "genius.". Not everyone is HC material but that does not mean they aren't competent in their current jobs.

Eddie Spaghetti
02-10-2011, 05:39 PM
People shutting up once and for all woudl be nice but expect the same old "cut and paste" of comments we have heard a thousand times

oh the irony.

good move bringing both guys back. they played like sh1t and still had a chance with the ball in Bens hands needing a TD to win it. i'll take that.

Oviedo
02-10-2011, 05:41 PM
People shutting up once and for all woudl be nice but expect the same old "cut and paste" of comments we have heard a thousand times

oh the irony.

good move bringing both guys back. they played like sh1t and still had a chance with the ball in Bens hands needing a TD to win it. i'll take that.

I was confident you would pick up on that. You did not disappoint :wink:

Eddie Spaghetti
02-10-2011, 05:47 PM
hey, you left the door open.

as much as you can't stand lebeau and think he sucks, this is not the year to make that case.

but we saw how that went. :roll:

Oviedo
02-10-2011, 05:58 PM
hey, you left the door open.

as much as you can't stand lebeau and think he sucks, this is not the year to make that case.

but we saw how that went. :roll:

You continue to totally miss the point on how I feel about LeBeau. I have never said he sucks. As a matter of fact I think he is one of the best ever. Everything I have said is based on a concern that we are not critically assessing our defense to see how it can be improved. I honestly do feel he loves his baby and may not be objective when he looks at it. IMO the evidence is clear as our secondary continues to get torched the same way year after year but yet we continue to draft and play zone cover CB to fit a zone scheme that the NFL has figured out.

We also don't seem to be able to get young player on the field and get them experience that we need to to perpetuate our success. For all the criticism he gets Arians gets young players on the field and they perform and they get better and they are ready to step in when called upon.

Look at what Capers did in Green Bay in just two years. He completley converts a defense and loads it with young players who perform to the max. Is his scheme as complex as LeBeau's if not then maybe the only people we confuse are our own players because we saw a ton of young talent on the Packers defense beating us.


Everything I post is to try to get some insightful discussion started about our defense versus just falling on our kness at the alter of LeBeau.

feltdizz
02-10-2011, 06:12 PM
People either like or hate Arians, I am on the hate side. With that, I have 1 question for those that like him. Why, after 2 SB's as an OC, and 1 SB as a WR's coach has he never been considered for a head coaching position? He has generated absolutely no interest what so ever by any team. That is almost unheard of, especially in this day and age.

Horton just got a promotion and I can't find anyone who thinks our secondary was good.

Eddie Spaghetti
02-10-2011, 06:14 PM
you want lebeau gone as you have stated numerous times. i'm not willing to even argue with you on that score.

i am not against the young guys getting playing time, but where was it supposed to happen on defense this year? the first quarter of the season when the starting QB was out? the tough 4 game stretch after that? they got some minutes in the raiders and panthers games as i recall. lebeua methods are sound, sorry you can't accept that.

again, this isnt the year to mock "saint lebeau".

feltdizz
02-10-2011, 06:14 PM
I have to agree with Ovi... I'm a Lebeau fan but it's obvious our secondary is horrible and the kids can't get on the field and when they do they look lost.

Something has to change because Arians has shown the ability to get the youngsters on the field on offense.

Why can't our 3rd 5th or 6th rounders have an impact on D? Are we really drafting the worst CB's in football?

SteelCrazy
02-10-2011, 06:19 PM
People either like or hate Arians, I am on the hate side. With that, I have 1 question for those that like him. Why, after 2 SB's as an OC, and 1 SB as a WR's coach has he never been considered for a head coaching position? He has generated absolutely no interest what so ever by any team. That is almost unheard of, especially in this day and age.

He's 58 years old. No one hires guys in their mid-to-late 50's for their first head coaching gig. First-time head coaches are hotshot young coordinators in their mid-to-late 30's or early 40's. The only guys in that are Arians' age who get hired to be a head coach are veteran head coaches with pelts on the wall like Mike Shanahan.

How much interest has LeBeau generated in the past decade and he is a "genius.". Not everyone is HC material but that does not mean they aren't competent in their current jobs.

Thanks for bringing up LeBeau. He got the head coaching job in Cincinnati at age 61-62, so Arians at 58 shouldnt be a problem. Of couse his Temple record suggests what a lot of us think of him.

SteelCrazy
02-10-2011, 06:21 PM
People either like or hate Arians, I am on the hate side. With that, I have 1 question for those that like him. Why, after 2 SB's as an OC, and 1 SB as a WR's coach has he never been considered for a head coaching position? He has generated absolutely no interest what so ever by any team. That is almost unheard of, especially in this day and age.

Horton just got a promotion and I can't find anyone who thinks our secondary was good.

Horton didnt get promoted because of his secondary coaching skills. He got the DC job because they're hoping he has learned the 3-4 D and can run it like LeBeau

Eddie Spaghetti
02-10-2011, 06:25 PM
remind me again how many superbowls in the last 6 years?

good grief.

feltdizz
02-10-2011, 06:26 PM
People either like or hate Arians, I am on the hate side. With that, I have 1 question for those that like him. Why, after 2 SB's as an OC, and 1 SB as a WR's coach has he never been considered for a head coaching position? He has generated absolutely no interest what so ever by any team. That is almost unheard of, especially in this day and age.

He's 58 years old. No one hires guys in their mid-to-late 50's for their first head coaching gig. First-time head coaches are hotshot young coordinators in their mid-to-late 30's or early 40's. The only guys in that are Arians' age who get hired to be a head coach are veteran head coaches with pelts on the wall like Mike Shanahan.

How much interest has LeBeau generated in the past decade and he is a "genius.". Not everyone is HC material but that does not mean they aren't competent in their current jobs.

Thanks for bringing up LeBeau. He got the head coaching job in Cincinnati at age 61-62, so Arians at 58 shouldnt be a problem. Of couse his Temple record suggests what a lot of us think of him.

Lebeau wasn't successful at Cincinnati.. maybe he ruined it for Arians. :stirpot

I think pointing out the lack of a HC offer is the only card the haters have left.

I don't think Arians is the greatest in the world but I think he fits nicely with our WR's and QB. We have been to 2 SB's with a horrible OL (they were better as this year went on)... so I can't understand what people really expect with a new guy.

Hell, can anyone name a few replacements who they think would fit better?

feltdizz
02-10-2011, 06:32 PM
People either like or hate Arians, I am on the hate side. With that, I have 1 question for those that like him. Why, after 2 SB's as an OC, and 1 SB as a WR's coach has he never been considered for a head coaching position? He has generated absolutely no interest what so ever by any team. That is almost unheard of, especially in this day and age.

Horton just got a promotion and I can't find anyone who thinks our secondary was good.

Horton didnt get promoted because of his secondary coaching skills. He got the DC job because they're hoping he has learned the 3-4 D and can run it like LeBeau

so.... in the NFL you can get a promotion based on hope and not on skills. :wink:

Crash
02-10-2011, 06:33 PM
No one will succeed in Cincy on a consistent basis until they improve their front office structure rather than have it be Mike Brown and his family of minions.

SteelCrazy
02-10-2011, 06:35 PM
Thanks for bringing up LeBeau. He got the head coaching job in Cincinnati at age 61-62, so Arians at 58 shouldnt be a problem. Of couse his Temple record suggests what a lot of us think of him.

Lebeau wasn't successful at Cincinnati.. maybe he ruined it for Arians. :stirpot

I think pointing out the lack of a HC offer is the only card the haters have left.

I don't think Arians is the greatest in the world but I think he fits nicely with our WR's and QB. We have been to 2 SB's with a horrible OL (they were better as this year went on)... so I can't understand what people really expect with a new guy.

Hell, can anyone name a few replacements who they think would fit better?

Pointing out the lack of HC offers is our only card left? HA! The Mendy fumble is card 2. The Packers knew it was coming. Having Speath and Johnson on the field all the time is another. When Sanders got hurt Arians admitted he was scrambling on the sidelines to call plays. He is an alright guy, I guess, but he is given a pass because Ben loves the freedom to play his way. Tomlin doesnt like to rock the boat. Hey, we are successful most of the time and Arians cant be that bad, but we were successful way before he got here and we'll still be after he's gone. Hopefully sooner then later.

Crash
02-10-2011, 06:39 PM
If Ben had the freedom to "play his way" Spaeth and Johnson would never see the field.

SteelCrazy
02-10-2011, 06:44 PM
People either like or hate Arians, I am on the hate side. With that, I have 1 question for those that like him. Why, after 2 SB's as an OC, and 1 SB as a WR's coach has he never been considered for a head coaching position? He has generated absolutely no interest what so ever by any team. That is almost unheard of, especially in this day and age.

Horton just got a promotion and I can't find anyone who thinks our secondary was good.

Horton didnt get promoted because of his secondary coaching skills. He got the DC job because they're hoping he has learned the 3-4 D and can run it like LeBeau

so.... in the NFL you can get a promotion based on hope and not on skills. :wink:

You're right. No team hopes they get a good coach, they know they're are getting a good coach. That's why the Lions and Browns are contenders every year, because every team KNOWS what they're getting.

You're the one that pointed out no one likes Hortons skills as a secondary coach. So, being a bad coach is what gets you promoted.

SteelCrazy
02-10-2011, 06:45 PM
If Ben had the freedom to "play his way" Spaeth and Johnson would never see the field.

Can't argue with that, but you know what I meant. Ben likes Arians

birtikidis
02-11-2011, 02:21 AM
The only thing I dislike about Arians is the fact that he refuses to use a true fullback. Instead he uses a 3rd string TE to play out of position... wtf? I can understand the philosophy of using 3 TE's but what I can't understand is cutting whole parts of an offense out. doesn't makes ense to me.

Shawn
02-11-2011, 02:43 AM
I know people may hate this but....

Ben's SB performance should shut people up about Arians...

I think most BA haters refuse to admit Ben is capable of making mistakes.. he is human. Praising Ben for every TD and bashing BA for every stalled drive doesn't hold water.

We made the SB and it wasn't in spite of BA.

Agreed. If Ben does what Ben does this isn't even a conversation. I won't blame Arians for Ben's poor game.

Crash
02-11-2011, 03:28 AM
Ben did what Ben does. He moved the ball when they went with 3 wide and struggled early when we tried to make plays with two TEs on the field.

Oviedo
02-11-2011, 09:17 AM
I have to agree with Ovi... I'm a Lebeau fan but it's obvious our secondary is horrible and the kids can't get on the field and when they do they look lost.

Something has to change because Arians has shown the ability to get the youngsters on the field on offense.

Why can't our 3rd 5th or 6th rounders have an impact on D? Are we really drafting the worst CB's in football?

That's all I've been saying. We need to look at and should discuss why we have a systemic problem with developing DBs and the performance of our secondary. I'd rather look at and discuss versus sticking my head in the sand and trusting the "genius."

Look at the facts. Who is the last good DB we have developed? My count is that it was IKe. Can't count Troy because he is on a physical level beyond 99.99% of the NFL. We had to get Clark as a FA. We had to bring back Bmac as a trade.

There is something wrong with what is happening in our defensive secondary. All I've been saying is don't know if it is the type of players our DC wants, the development once they get here or how they are used but there is a serious problem.

But because of that I'm accused of hating old people. So be it. Perhaps I just think people doing a job should be held to the same standard that we hold other people to doing a similar job in the same organization. In the NFL what you did yesterday doesn't matter jack to me. It's about what you are going to do tomorrow.

feltdizz
02-11-2011, 09:37 AM
Thanks for bringing up LeBeau. He got the head coaching job in Cincinnati at age 61-62, so Arians at 58 shouldnt be a problem. Of couse his Temple record suggests what a lot of us think of him.

Lebeau wasn't successful at Cincinnati.. maybe he ruined it for Arians. :stirpot

I think pointing out the lack of a HC offer is the only card the haters have left.

I don't think Arians is the greatest in the world but I think he fits nicely with our WR's and QB. We have been to 2 SB's with a horrible OL (they were better as this year went on)... so I can't understand what people really expect with a new guy.

Hell, can anyone name a few replacements who they think would fit better?

Pointing out the lack of HC offers is our only card left? HA! The Mendy fumble is card 2. The Packers knew it was coming. Having Speath and Johnson on the field all the time is another. When Sanders got hurt Arians admitted he was scrambling on the sidelines to call plays. He is an alright guy, I guess, but he is given a pass because Ben loves the freedom to play his way. Tomlin doesnt like to rock the boat. Hey, we are successful most of the time and Arians cant be that bad, but we were successful way before he got here and we'll still be after he's gone. Hopefully sooner then later.

Oh the horror... a team guessed right on a play based on formation. That never happens in the NFL. :roll:

All OC's have to "scramble" to call plays when one of the primary players in the gameplan goes down.

We are young at WR and it bit us in the azzz on the wrong day.

RuthlessBurgher
02-11-2011, 11:09 AM
I have to agree with Ovi... I'm a Lebeau fan but it's obvious our secondary is horrible and the kids can't get on the field and when they do they look lost.

Something has to change because Arians has shown the ability to get the youngsters on the field on offense.

Why can't our 3rd 5th or 6th rounders have an impact on D? Are we really drafting the worst CB's in football?

That's all I've been saying. We need to look at and should discuss why we have a systemic problem with developing DBs and the performance of our secondary. I'd rather look at and discuss versus sticking my head in the sand and trusting the "genius."

Look at the facts. Who is the last good DB we have developed? My count is that it was IKe. Can't count Troy because he is on a physical level beyond 99.99% of the NFL. We had to get Clark as a FA. We had to bring back Bmac as a trade.

There is something wrong with what is happening in our defensive secondary. All I've been saying is don't know if it is the type of players our DC wants, the development once they get here or how they are used but there is a serious problem.

But because of that I'm accused of hating old people. So be it. Perhaps I just think people doing a job should be held to the same standard that we hold other people to doing a similar job in the same organization. In the NFL what you did yesterday doesn't matter jack to me. It's about what you are going to do tomorrow.

Everyone that lives in Florida hates all those d@mn old people. Just admit it. :wink:

Keeping LeBeau employed in Pittsburgh means one less old person in the Sunshine State, though. :P

birtikidis
02-11-2011, 11:12 AM
I agree, I want a better defense. I'm tired of being number 1 in almost every major category.
FIRE THE BUM!

SteelCrazy
02-11-2011, 11:12 AM
Thanks for bringing up LeBeau. He got the head coaching job in Cincinnati at age 61-62, so Arians at 58 shouldnt be a problem. Of couse his Temple record suggests what a lot of us think of him.

Lebeau wasn't successful at Cincinnati.. maybe he ruined it for Arians. :stirpot

I think pointing out the lack of a HC offer is the only card the haters have left.

I don't think Arians is the greatest in the world but I think he fits nicely with our WR's and QB. We have been to 2 SB's with a horrible OL (they were better as this year went on)... so I can't understand what people really expect with a new guy.

Hell, can anyone name a few replacements who they think would fit better?

Pointing out the lack of HC offers is our only card left? HA! The Mendy fumble is card 2. The Packers knew it was coming. Having Speath and Johnson on the field all the time is another. When Sanders got hurt Arians admitted he was scrambling on the sidelines to call plays. He is an alright guy, I guess, but he is given a pass because Ben loves the freedom to play his way. Tomlin doesnt like to rock the boat. Hey, we are successful most of the time and Arians cant be that bad, but we were successful way before he got here and we'll still be after he's gone. Hopefully sooner then later.

Oh the horror... a team guessed right on a play based on formation. That never happens in the NFL. :roll:

All OC's have to "scramble" to call plays when one of the primary players in the gameplan goes down.

We are young at WR and it bit us in the azzz on the wrong day.

When you're down 21-17 at the start of the 4th quarter and been trailing the whole game it'd be wise not use formations and plays you've ran all year in the super bowl. Everyone knows the other team has watched butt loads of film and when trying to mount a comeback you dont use a low percentage run with a back up center that has to pull and a te playing fb! They eight in the box with the side we were running to overloaded....the only way that play works is if every man gets a hat on their guy. There was no room at all for error, not even in the slightest. At the very least Ben should have audibled out of that play.

Oviedo
02-11-2011, 11:40 AM
I have to agree with Ovi... I'm a Lebeau fan but it's obvious our secondary is horrible and the kids can't get on the field and when they do they look lost.

Something has to change because Arians has shown the ability to get the youngsters on the field on offense.

Why can't our 3rd 5th or 6th rounders have an impact on D? Are we really drafting the worst CB's in football?

That's all I've been saying. We need to look at and should discuss why we have a systemic problem with developing DBs and the performance of our secondary. I'd rather look at and discuss versus sticking my head in the sand and trusting the "genius."

Look at the facts. Who is the last good DB we have developed? My count is that it was IKe. Can't count Troy because he is on a physical level beyond 99.99% of the NFL. We had to get Clark as a FA. We had to bring back Bmac as a trade.

There is something wrong with what is happening in our defensive secondary. All I've been saying is don't know if it is the type of players our DC wants, the development once they get here or how they are used but there is a serious problem.

But because of that I'm accused of hating old people. So be it. Perhaps I just think people doing a job should be held to the same standard that we hold other people to doing a similar job in the same organization. In the NFL what you did yesterday doesn't matter jack to me. It's about what you are going to do tomorrow.

Everyone that lives in Florida hates all those d@mn old people. Just admit it. :wink:

Keeping LeBeau employed in Pittsburgh means one less old person in the Sunshine State, though. :P

We only hate them when they are behind the wheel of a car.

Oviedo
02-11-2011, 11:44 AM
I agree, I want a better defense. I'm tired of being number 1 in almost every major category.
FIRE THE BUM!

By all means, if we just have great rankings what does something as silly as winning the Super Bowl have to do with anything?

We'll just ignore how our secondary gets sliced and diced by good QBs because we have good rankings. No need to worry that we have no DBs that can cover man to man against top receivers. We should just show them our rankings so they don't try against us and waste their time.

birtikidis
02-11-2011, 11:56 AM
I agree, I want a better defense. I'm tired of being number 1 in almost every major category.
FIRE THE BUM!

By all means, if we just have great rankings what does something as silly as winning the Super Bowl have to do with anything?

We'll just ignore how our secondary gets sliced and diced by good QBs because we have good rankings. No need to worry that we have no DBs that can cover man to man against top receivers. We should just show them our rankings so they don't try against us and waste their time.
bah who wants to get to super bowls. let's bring in someone new just for the sake of doing it by GOD! We all KNOW how great we were at getting to the super bowl before DLB got here! WE don't need him! He's at fault, not the players who get picked on! Not the front office who signs those players to contracts they don't deserve! IT'S ALL DLB!

feltdizz
02-11-2011, 12:08 PM
I agree, I want a better defense. I'm tired of being number 1 in almost every major category.
FIRE THE BUM!

By all means, if we just have great rankings what does something as silly as winning the Super Bowl have to do with anything?

We'll just ignore how our secondary gets sliced and diced by good QBs because we have good rankings. No need to worry that we have no DBs that can cover man to man against top receivers. We should just show them our rankings so they don't try against us and waste their time.
bah who wants to get to super bowls. let's bring in someone new just for the sake of doing it by GOD! We all KNOW how great we were at getting to the super bowl before DLB got here! WE don't need him! He's at fault, not the players who get picked on! Not the front office who signs those players to contracts they don't deserve! IT'S ALL DLB!

definitely not all Lebeau...

but can you honestly say our DB development under Lebeau has been stellar? Have you seen any DB look like an NFL cover corner?

I'm sorry but our DB's... outside of Troy, don't even look like professionals have the time IMO.

Oviedo
02-11-2011, 12:08 PM
I agree, I want a better defense. I'm tired of being number 1 in almost every major category.
FIRE THE BUM!

By all means, if we just have great rankings what does something as silly as winning the Super Bowl have to do with anything?

We'll just ignore how our secondary gets sliced and diced by good QBs because we have good rankings. No need to worry that we have no DBs that can cover man to man against top receivers. We should just show them our rankings so they don't try against us and waste their time.
bah who wants to get to super bowls. let's bring in someone new just for the sake of doing it by GOD! We all KNOW how great we were at getting to the super bowl before DLB got here! WE don't need him! He's at fault, not the players who get picked on! Not the front office who signs those players to contracts they don't deserve! IT'S ALL DLB!

Or we could do something totally crazy like ask the people we have now to consider other options and do a objective assessment. Don't need new but better from what we have would be OK too.

Shawn
02-11-2011, 12:31 PM
Ben did what Ben does. He moved the ball when they went with 3 wide and struggled early when we tried to make plays with two TEs on the field.

Yeah well, you can't roll bunch sets all game. Becoming one dimensional is a sure fire way of losing a game. Its odd that many suggest Arians become less predictable but make suggestions that would cause him to be more predictable.

Ben is a great QB who had a very bad game. It wasn't the fault of the OC. It was Ben's problems with accuracy and decision making which cost us the game. I realize it's a team game but if Ben plays well...we win by 10+. I won't blame Arians for that. While he isn't my favorite OC in the world...I won't hang something on him that doesn't belong there.

birtikidis
02-11-2011, 12:41 PM
I agree, I want a better defense. I'm tired of being number 1 in almost every major category.
FIRE THE BUM!

By all means, if we just have great rankings what does something as silly as winning the Super Bowl have to do with anything?

We'll just ignore how our secondary gets sliced and diced by good QBs because we have good rankings. No need to worry that we have no DBs that can cover man to man against top receivers. We should just show them our rankings so they don't try against us and waste their time.
bah who wants to get to super bowls. let's bring in someone new just for the sake of doing it by GOD! We all KNOW how great we were at getting to the super bowl before DLB got here! WE don't need him! He's at fault, not the players who get picked on! Not the front office who signs those players to contracts they don't deserve! IT'S ALL DLB!

Or we could do something totally crazy like ask the people we have now to consider other options and do a objective assessment. Don't need new but better from what we have would be OK too.
honestly, I'm not disappointed in our DB development. they do what they are asked to do. You guys all ask why one of our guys play off by ten yards... do you really not know? it's sound football that's why. when you ask your safety to be in the box, you can only have one over the top. I'd rather give up the short pass then the deep one which is what you guys would have us doing all the time. we haven't spent a high pick on a corner since charred scott. every team hits and misses. look at Ike. Mcfadden has taken quite a few steps back since super bowl 43. that is troubling. but you guys think 5-7 round draft picks at corner should be like Revis, Rod, or deion. it's completely unrealistic.

birtikidis
02-11-2011, 12:43 PM
Ben did what Ben does. He moved the ball when they went with 3 wide and struggled early when we tried to make plays with two TEs on the field.

Yeah well, you can't roll bunch sets all game. Becoming one dimensional is a sure fire way of losing a game. Its odd that many suggest Arians become less predictable but make suggestions that would cause him to be more predictable.

Ben is a great QB who had a very bad game. It wasn't the fault of the OC. It was Ben's problems with accuracy and decision making which cost us the game. I realize it's a team game but if Ben plays well...we win by 10+. I won't blame Arians for that. While he isn't my favorite OC in the world...I won't hang something on him that doesn't belong there.
shawn I agree with 90% of this assessment. the problem i have with Arians is not using a true fullback. they ask their 3rd string tight end, a guy who wouldn't get on the field for 31 teams to line up in the back field, out of position, and ask him to block the runner up to Defensive player of the year... does that sound crazy to any one other then me?

Oviedo
02-11-2011, 12:48 PM
Ben did what Ben does. He moved the ball when they went with 3 wide and struggled early when we tried to make plays with two TEs on the field.

Yeah well, you can't roll bunch sets all game. Becoming one dimensional is a sure fire way of losing a game. Its odd that many suggest Arians become less predictable but make suggestions that would cause him to be more predictable.

Ben is a great QB who had a very bad game. It wasn't the fault of the OC. It was Ben's problems with accuracy and decision making which cost us the game. I realize it's a team game but if Ben plays well...we win by 10+. I won't blame Arians for that. While he isn't my favorite OC in the world...I won't hang something on him that doesn't belong there.
shawn I agree with 90% of this assessment. the problem i have with Arians is not using a true fullback. they ask their 3rd string tight end, a guy who wouldn't get on the field for 31 teams to line up in the back field, out of position, and ask him to block the runner up to Defensive player of the year... does that sound crazy to any one other then me?

TEs spend the majority of their plays blocking. I have absolutley no problem with using a TE. Our problem is that we kept the wrong one. Johnson is garbage. We should have kept McHugh. If you remember during the 2008 Super Bowl run his blocking was exceptional.

That said I would totally be OK with picking up someone like Henry Hynoski but everyone has to realize that the FB is a dead position in this league. You can't afford to dress a FB on gameday when he will likely be used on 3-4 short yardage plays. That is why using a TE offers more gameday flexibility. Like I said we are using one that is garbage much like using Madison as a DB.

birtikidis
02-11-2011, 01:10 PM
Ben did what Ben does. He moved the ball when they went with 3 wide and struggled early when we tried to make plays with two TEs on the field.

Yeah well, you can't roll bunch sets all game. Becoming one dimensional is a sure fire way of losing a game. Its odd that many suggest Arians become less predictable but make suggestions that would cause him to be more predictable.

Ben is a great QB who had a very bad game. It wasn't the fault of the OC. It was Ben's problems with accuracy and decision making which cost us the game. I realize it's a team game but if Ben plays well...we win by 10+. I won't blame Arians for that. While he isn't my favorite OC in the world...I won't hang something on him that doesn't belong there.
shawn I agree with 90% of this assessment. the problem i have with Arians is not using a true fullback. they ask their 3rd string tight end, a guy who wouldn't get on the field for 31 teams to line up in the back field, out of position, and ask him to block the runner up to Defensive player of the year... does that sound crazy to any one other then me?

TEs spend the majority of their plays blocking. I have absolutley no problem with using a TE. Our problem is that we kept the wrong one. Johnson is garbage. We should have kept McHugh. If you remember during the 2008 Super Bowl run his blocking was exceptional.

That said I would totally be OK with picking up someone like Henry Hynoski but everyone has to realize that the FB is a dead position in this league. You can't afford to dress a FB on gameday when he will likely be used on 3-4 short yardage plays. That is why using a TE offers more gameday flexibility. Like I said we are using one that is garbage much like using Madison as a DB.
that's my point Ovi, like i said, 31 teams would not suit him up. He's a pure TE, not a guy like McHugh who can do both.

Crash
02-11-2011, 01:37 PM
Ben did what Ben does. He moved the ball when they went with 3 wide and struggled early when we tried to make plays with two TEs on the field.

Yeah well, you can't roll bunch sets all game. Becoming one dimensional is a sure fire way of losing a game. Its odd that many suggest Arians become less predictable but make suggestions that would cause him to be more predictable.

Ben is a great QB who had a very bad game. It wasn't the fault of the OC. It was Ben's problems with accuracy and decision making which cost us the game. I realize it's a team game but if Ben plays well...we win by 10+. I won't blame Arians for that. While he isn't my favorite OC in the world...I won't hang something on him that doesn't belong there.

So Arians doesn't set the formations? Arians doesn't trot out Spaeth and Johnson? If he wants a two TE set like I said go get a hybrid H-back who can least run and create mis-matches.

All Spaeth does is clog up the offense. In the 19th game of the season he shouldn't be colliding with his own WR because he ran the wrong route.

It's not a coincidence that Ben excells in the hurry up when the 2-3 TE sets are not being used.

Shawn
02-11-2011, 06:38 PM
Ben did what Ben does. He moved the ball when they went with 3 wide and struggled early when we tried to make plays with two TEs on the field.

Yeah well, you can't roll bunch sets all game. Becoming one dimensional is a sure fire way of losing a game. Its odd that many suggest Arians become less predictable but make suggestions that would cause him to be more predictable.

Ben is a great QB who had a very bad game. It wasn't the fault of the OC. It was Ben's problems with accuracy and decision making which cost us the game. I realize it's a team game but if Ben plays well...we win by 10+. I won't blame Arians for that. While he isn't my favorite OC in the world...I won't hang something on him that doesn't belong there.

So Arians doesn't set the formations? Arians doesn't trot out Spaeth and Johnson? If he wants a two TE set like I said go get a hybrid H-back who can least run and create mis-matches.

All Spaeth does is clog up the offense. In the 19th game of the season he shouldn't be colliding with his own WR because he ran the wrong route.

It's not a coincidence that Ben excells in the hurry up when the 2-3 TE sets are not being used.

Sure he does, but great QBs will thrive from any set. Offensive diversity is a must. If you are suggesting running bunch sets all game, I think you will find teams geared to stop it. While you might not think Ben does very well from certain sets, I highly suspect Arians and Ben himself would disagree with you. Different looks for different situations, and Ben needs to execute regardless.

Crash
02-11-2011, 06:42 PM
Shawn,

We rarely throw with Johnson on the field. If anything when he's out there it SCREAMS run.

Then he'll come off on 2nd and 10.

Then Sanders comes on. Gee, think we are going to throw there?

I don't mean bunch formations. I mean use three wide and a TE as our regular base offense.

ScoreKeeper
02-11-2011, 07:23 PM
BA is more predictable than my 6:15 am crap every morning.

ScoreKeeper
02-11-2011, 07:27 PM
great QBs will thrive from any set
What you are saying is a system O like Brady or Manning runs. We don't run tha tkind of O. And if you disrupt the timing of Brady or Manning, what happens? They sit while we play in the SB, that's what happens.

Look, BA is predictable to a fault. Did Ben play his best...no. But he kept us in it until the last drive.

And tell me...were you not saying on that last drive...Ben will pull it off...just like many of us were saying? Of course you were.

Flasteel
02-11-2011, 08:09 PM
I agree, I want a better defense. I'm tired of being number 1 in almost every major category.
FIRE THE BUM!

By all means, if we just have great rankings what does something as silly as winning the Super Bowl have to do with anything?

We'll just ignore how our secondary gets sliced and diced by good QBs because we have good rankings. No need to worry that we have no DBs that can cover man to man against top receivers. We should just show them our rankings so they don't try against us and waste their time.
bah who wants to get to super bowls. let's bring in someone new just for the sake of doing it by GOD! We all KNOW how great we were at getting to the super bowl before DLB got here! WE don't need him! He's at fault, not the players who get picked on! Not the front office who signs those players to contracts they don't deserve! IT'S ALL DLB!

Or we could do something totally crazy like ask the people we have now to consider other options and do a objective assessment. Don't need new but better from what we have would be OK too.
honestly, I'm not disappointed in our DB development. they do what they are asked to do. You guys all ask why one of our guys play off by ten yards... do you really not know? it's sound football that's why. when you ask your safety to be in the box, you can only have one over the top. I'd rather give up the short pass then the deep one which is what you guys would have us doing all the time. we haven't spent a high pick on a corner since charred scott. every team hits and misses. look at Ike. Mcfadden has taken quite a few steps back since super bowl 43. that is troubling. but you guys think 5-7 round draft picks at corner should be like Revis, Rod, or deion. it's completely unrealistic.

Most of what you are saying is true Birt. We can't expect all of these late round picks to develop more than they have. We need to invest a premium pick (1st or 2nd round) on a corner before we get the kind of guy who can jam a receiver and play man coverage. Expecting it from lower draft choices is likely setting yourself up for disappointment.

As far as the 10-yard cushion...I know you coach, so you know as well as I do that you need to mix up your coverages and pressure packages. LeBeau was so mindful of not giving up the big play, he did it at the expense of the short game. If you want your safety up in the box, then yeah you don't want to press both of your corners...at least not with any regularity :D You could put Taylor in man coverage on the #2 receiver and cheat your lone safety to help out over the top on #1. We could mix in more cover 2. We could show press and back out from time to time...or do the opposite.

LeBeau started to play his corners up tight a lot more after the New England game and it made a huge difference in our pass defense. Crank up the pressure and don't give them time to get deep on you!!

That was my first football-related post since the loss...it felt cathartic. :Beer

birtikidis
02-11-2011, 08:28 PM
FLa,
absolutely man, I was trying to boil it down to the most common denominator. but every one says "how do you beat the elite QB"... well when that guy has a good third guy that is where we struggle. look at NE with Gronkowski and Hernandez.. that doesn't even add in Welker or Branch... it's a mismatch and it messes with coverage combinations.. same thing with what GB had with Driver, Jennings and that long haired dude who dropped everything.
I agree with you that we need to spend a premium pick on a cb.. but i think that we shouldn't at the expense of our 100m dollar qb who gets sacked and hit all the time.. that's why I'm pulling for Pouncey.

Flasteel
02-11-2011, 09:44 PM
FLa,
absolutely man, I was trying to boil it down to the most common denominator. but every one says "how do you beat the elite QB"... well when that guy has a good third guy that is where we struggle. look at NE with Gronkowski and Hernandez.. that doesn't even add in Welker or Branch... it's a mismatch and it messes with coverage combinations.. same thing with what GB had with Driver, Jennings and that long haired dude who dropped everything.
I agree with you that we need to spend a premium pick on a cb.. but i think that we shouldn't at the expense of our 100m dollar qb who gets sacked and hit all the time.. that's why I'm pulling for Pouncey.

You and I are on the exact same page. I'm looking at Pouncey as well and going after the best corner on the board that we can feasibly trade up to get. Be aggressive and address both areas.

Of course it will probably not turn out that way, but we can dream...right? :D

I think you're also dead-on when pointing to a team's 3rd receiver...I'd even extend it to the 4th. If you can go 4-deep with talented receivers, you isolate the DB's and you find the one-on-one match-ups. Of course you need to also have an accurate QB who can quickly read the defense, spot the match-up, and pull the trigger under a heavy rush.

Every team we have struggled with has that combination.

SteelAbility
02-12-2011, 04:49 PM
Can someone Nancy Kerrigan Matt Spaeth and David Johnson?

I'll do it. Keep in touch with NFL news on ESPN. It'll be coming ... :Cheers :P

RuthlessBurgher
02-12-2011, 10:57 PM
Ben did what Ben does. He moved the ball when they went with 3 wide and struggled early when we tried to make plays with two TEs on the field.

Yeah well, you can't roll bunch sets all game. Becoming one dimensional is a sure fire way of losing a game. Its odd that many suggest Arians become less predictable but make suggestions that would cause him to be more predictable.

Ben is a great QB who had a very bad game. It wasn't the fault of the OC. It was Ben's problems with accuracy and decision making which cost us the game. I realize it's a team game but if Ben plays well...we win by 10+. I won't blame Arians for that. While he isn't my favorite OC in the world...I won't hang something on him that doesn't belong there.
shawn I agree with 90% of this assessment. the problem i have with Arians is not using a true fullback. they ask their 3rd string tight end, a guy who wouldn't get on the field for 31 teams to line up in the back field, out of position, and ask him to block the runner up to Defensive player of the year... does that sound crazy to any one other then me?

TEs spend the majority of their plays blocking. I have absolutley no problem with using a TE. Our problem is that we kept the wrong one. Johnson is garbage. We should have kept McHugh. If you remember during the 2008 Super Bowl run his blocking was exceptional.

That said I would totally be OK with picking up someone like Henry Hynoski but everyone has to realize that the FB is a dead position in this league. You can't afford to dress a FB on gameday when he will likely be used on 3-4 short yardage plays. That is why using a TE offers more gameday flexibility. Like I said we are using one that is garbage much like using Madison as a DB.

And yet somehow, the current Super Bowl champions have Korey Hall, Quinn Johnson, and John Kuhn on their roster. They can run a spread offense when they want, or load it up when they want.

birtikidis
02-12-2011, 11:01 PM
Ruthless, why would you want to go and talk sense at people who are unaware that sense exists?
was very well played though. I tip my hat at you. and thanks for helping make my arguement.

NorthCoast
02-13-2011, 10:22 AM
We've come to rely on the Steelers having one of the best defenses year after year. There is no denying that with the talent we have on offense, we should be in the top 10 in scoring. Yet Arians has only cracked it once (10th) two years ago...and it happened when the defense was one for the ages.

Oviedo
02-13-2011, 11:42 AM
We've come to rely on the Steelers having one of the best defenses year after year. There is no denying that with the talent we have on offense, we should be in the top 10 in scoring. Yet Arians has only cracked it once (10th) two years ago...and it happened when the defense was one for the ages.


I assume you are coveniently totally discounting the lack of talent on the OL which is a critical piece of the equation in order to criticize Arians. Kind of tought to be Top 10 when your OL can't provide a consistent running game or give up sacks at critical times that forces us to punt.

birtikidis
02-13-2011, 08:28 PM
We've come to rely on the Steelers having one of the best defenses year after year. There is no denying that with the talent we have on offense, we should be in the top 10 in scoring. Yet Arians has only cracked it once (10th) two years ago...and it happened when the defense was one for the ages.


I assume you are coveniently totally discounting the lack of talent on the OL which is a critical piece of the equation in order to criticize Arians. Kind of tought to be Top 10 when your OL can't provide a consistent running game or give up sacks at critical times that forces us to punt.
but aren't you one of the ones who thinks that OL isn't worth upgrading and would rather go CB? I may be wrong... but i think i'm right..

Oviedo
02-14-2011, 09:17 AM
We've come to rely on the Steelers having one of the best defenses year after year. There is no denying that with the talent we have on offense, we should be in the top 10 in scoring. Yet Arians has only cracked it once (10th) two years ago...and it happened when the defense was one for the ages.


I assume you are coveniently totally discounting the lack of talent on the OL which is a critical piece of the equation in order to criticize Arians. Kind of tought to be Top 10 when your OL can't provide a consistent running game or give up sacks at critical times that forces us to punt.
but aren't you one of the ones who thinks that OL isn't worth upgrading and would rather go CB? I may be wrong... but i think i'm right..

Look at my mock draft. I'm drafting two OL in the first 5 picks (probably first four by the time I'm done). I've never said that we don't need to add OL talent, I just think our Secondary is so bad it has to take priority.

If Starks and Colon don't come back I would go OL in Round 1. They are the wildcards that I'm waiting to get more info on.

feltdizz
02-14-2011, 09:33 AM
We've come to rely on the Steelers having one of the best defenses year after year. There is no denying that with the talent we have on offense, we should be in the top 10 in scoring. Yet Arians has only cracked it once (10th) two years ago...and it happened when the defense was one for the ages.


I assume you are coveniently totally discounting the lack of talent on the OL which is a critical piece of the equation in order to criticize Arians. Kind of tought to be Top 10 when your OL can't provide a consistent running game or give up sacks at critical times that forces us to punt.
but aren't you one of the ones who thinks that OL isn't worth upgrading and would rather go CB? I may be wrong... but i think i'm right..

IMO OL is the #1 priority.... but only if it's there when we draft. If not I would go DB.

The draft isn't 1 pick... we get a few.

I think the OL is one guy away from being respectable. OL wasn't the weakest area in the playoffs.