PDA

View Full Version : Honest opinion, after last night game do you still think Ben



Steelhere10
02-07-2011, 12:19 PM
Is elite. I am riding the fence here, what's your opinion? 3 SB one won inspite of him, one won because of him. And the other lost mainly because of him.

SidSmythe
02-07-2011, 12:23 PM
Ben is an elite QB all around

He's not in a prolific offense with a prolific O-line in front of him

He's a winner and kept his team in the game ...the game didn't get away 'til Mendenhall's fumble.

Crash
02-07-2011, 12:23 PM
Yes. He is. No fence to ride here.

If one bad half trumps seven years of work? Then he was never that good to begin with.

If Ben isn't elite, neither are Peyton, Brees, Rivers, or Brady.

Elway stunk in 4 SBs. Kelly stunk in 3 of them.

Steelers>NFL
02-07-2011, 12:23 PM
I don't know. This is the 3rd SB that he did not play that well. Yes he played well for one quarter against the Cardinals when it counted most. But other than that, what has he done in the SB. A great defense kept the steelers in the game last night. Not to mention
drops by GB WRs. I still think Ben is a great QB for the Steelers. But he had a great opportunity last night to stake his claim as an elite QB. I do not think he is that just yet.
Last night his passes were all over the earth. It was painful to watch.

grotonsteel
02-07-2011, 12:25 PM
Ben is elite in my book. Anyone who takes a team to SB 3 times in 7 years is elite.

Crash
02-07-2011, 12:25 PM
Yes he played well for one quarter against the Cardinals when it counted most.

Wrong. Ben started XLIII on fire also.

Comical, Ben gets blamed because the defense blows a 20-7 lead.

flippy
02-07-2011, 12:27 PM
elite. one of best ever.

rodgers is elite too.

i'd take either over peyton, brady, or brees.

snarky
02-07-2011, 12:34 PM
Elite or not, I'm very satisfied to have him on this team. My opinion remains that he is elite but not as good at the pure passer role as other QBs. But somehow he finds a way to win and he is one of the best when the game is on the line. In the eyes of many, that doesn't constitute elite since he will likely continue to win despite his passer rating.

So by the fantasy football standard. No, not elite. But by the standard of being able to deliver in a big game, then yes he is elite.

What it boils down to is that he is an enigma in the fantasy football era. A quarterback who gets it done despite a sometimes poor passer rating, even though passer rating is supposed to measure a QBs effectiveness.

siss
02-07-2011, 12:43 PM
9/10 Ben takes them down field and wins the game. This was the 10th time. He is still the QB and I wouldn't want ANY other QB on my team.

Mister Pittsburgh
02-07-2011, 12:46 PM
I don't know what 'Elite' even means. He is a good quarterback but we don't put the game mostly on his shoulders like other teams do with their QB's.

Last night the ball was put into Ben's hands with 2 minutes on the clock and one timeout. We needed one TD to win the Superbowl. Our offense looked like a chinese fire drill. I put that on Ben. There was no sense of urgency. Our run game was the only reason we consistently moved the football.

Eich
02-07-2011, 12:52 PM
Any QB with 2 rings and 3 visits is elite. Unfortunately, Ben has some oddly erratic performances.

I still think he played with a concussion yesterday.

Regardless of the reason for his play yesterday, it's a shame because the offensive line, which we normally blame, played incredibly well, particularly consdering how many people had been replaced since the start of the season.

Yesterday was Ben's time to really shine and silence his critics but he wasn't able to come through. That game is going to bother him (and hopefully drive him) for a long time.

Crash
02-07-2011, 12:52 PM
He is a good quarterback but we don't put the game mostly on his shoulders like other teams do with their QB's.

We don't? We come out throwing to get leads and then we run the ball.

Just because we don't air it out up 20 points doesn't mean we don't put the game on Ben's shoulders.

SteelBucks
02-07-2011, 12:58 PM
He's elite. Without him, the Steelers are still sitting on 4 SB victories and no appearances since SB XXX. As someone said, 3 SB's and 2 victories in seven years is pretty frickin good.

Mister Pittsburgh
02-07-2011, 12:59 PM
He is a good quarterback but we don't put the game mostly on his shoulders like other teams do with their QB's.

We don't? We come out throwing to get leads and then we run the ball.

Just because we don't air it out up 20 points doesn't mean we don't put the game on Ben's shoulders.

What leads are you referring to that we got by coming out throwing? We got a lead in the Jets game by running the ball, and Ben threw poorly in that game other than some clutch plays.....his accuracy was off......and then yesterday he was either high or low with a heap of passes.

papillon
02-07-2011, 01:00 PM
Ask yourself this question:

As poorly as the Steelers played last night, when the Packers kicked a FG to take a 6 point lead, did you think the Steelers were doomed or did you say to yourself, "I can't believe we actually a good chance of winning this game."?

The answer to that question will tell you what you think of Ben.

The Steelers couldn't get out of their own way all night long and all of a sudden they're sitting there with the ball, 2 minutes and Ben. I was supremely confident that Ben would at least get his shots into the end zone to win the game.

It didn't happen this time, but I'd love that scenario again to win the Super Bowl.

You can call Ben what you want, elite, very good, good, HOFer it doesn't really matter, he inspires confidence in players, coaches and fans. I was absolutely shocked that the game wasn't extended, that they couldn't make another first down on 3rd or 4th.

Pappy

Chucktownsteeler
02-07-2011, 01:04 PM
In my honest opinion it is time totake Ben's "father-figure" away from him and hire an OC that can bring out his best.

It is time for BA to go.


C-town

Crash
02-07-2011, 01:08 PM
I don't blame BA for using the running game. That's what he was told to do by the Rooney's.

I blame him for predictability in play-calling based on formation.

Until that changes, this is who we are.

Chucktownsteeler
02-07-2011, 01:12 PM
Agreed, I am blaming BA for the turnovers, all teams have them. The predictabilty, lack of game time adjustments, stubborness, you name it. Constant bubble screens. These aren't fooling anyone anymore.

Did you see GB start rolling the pocket when we tuned up the heat?

I hope this guy retires.

C-town

Mister Pittsburgh
02-07-2011, 01:13 PM
I guess my question is, why do we need to do all this gimmicky crap with guys like Johnston and Spaeth out there instead of spreading a defense out with Hines, Wallace, Brown, Sanders, El, Heath and go with a single back in Mendenhall? I expected Mendenhall to be used quite a bit out of the passing game. He had one catch for 7 yards. Brown wasn't involved.

Chucktownsteeler
02-07-2011, 01:15 PM
I guess my question is, why do we need to do all this gimmicky crap with guys like Johnston and Spaeth out there instead of spreading a defense out with Hines, Wallace, Brown, Sanders, El, Heath and go with a single back in Mendenhall? I expected Mendenhall to be used quite a bit out of the passing game. He had one catch for 7 yards. Brown wasn't involved.


Agreed.

Crash
02-07-2011, 01:18 PM
I don't mind the bubble screens to Wallace, gets the ball in his hands and he has speed. That helped set up the TD he did catch cause he juked the guy when he came up to play him tight.

Just have to use our speed MORE. Was very PO'd that Brown didn't get more time after Sanders went down.

Mister Pittsburgh
02-07-2011, 01:30 PM
You know what, to be honest, no, I don't think he is an elite QB. I think he has games here and there, and moments here and there, where he does some amazing things. But game in and game out, I wouldn't say he is top 3 or 4 in the league. Rodgers put the ball on the money, under pressure, with no running game to speak of. If his WR caught the balls that were right there for them we get blown out.

Ben threw high, threw low, threw to the other team, and he had a running game to work off of. Same in the Jets game.

The ball was in his hands with 2 minutes left and it was a chinese fire drill out there. He had no command of the offense in that moment. Elite QB's don't need a running game to make their offenses go. The only defenses Ben shredded this year were the Browns and the Panthers.

chiken
02-07-2011, 01:33 PM
This is kinda frustrating.

We dont make it this far without the contrubution of 2 rookies .. in fact we have a real good chance of missing the super bowl w/o them. Today Brown showed us why Sanders got to much more playing time over him. When Sanders went down Brown could not step in and pick up the slack. In fact Ben Lost faith in Brown after he Ran the wrong route. I dont remember him going back to him.

Wallace Carries 2 people and has absolutely no moves when he does catch the ball, but he is still a wonderful 2nd year guy playing that position for the first full year. He will eventually be awesome but right now he is just a young stud.

Hines and El are old, and though They both showed some spark, neither of them strike fear in any defense anymore. Asking Ben to perform "the miracle" down the stretch with a Rookie (who was lost), 2 old guys and a second year guy who is the Sole focus of the Defense is a little much.

IS Ben Elite, heck yea. But the Skill positions on offense are young - that youth showed today... :2c

Sugar
02-07-2011, 01:34 PM
Of course Ben is elite as a QB though maybe not as a pure passer. IMO, he is the best football player that plays QB in the league.

RuthlessBurgher
02-07-2011, 01:41 PM
Frankly, I don't want Ben to be considered elite.

Hines Ward was never considered elite, and he used whatever possible perceived slight from anyone to fester and drive him to be better year after year.

James Harrison gets a defensive player of the year award in 2008, and then gets vilified by the league in 2010, which has driven him to be even more of a menace than he was before.

I think people putting Ben on a tier below the Brady, Manning, Brees (and probably Rodgers now if I know how talking heads tend to deify young talented QB's...as long as they don't win ugly like Ben) will continue to motivate Ben to do what is most important to him...continue winning football games instead of fantasy matchups.

SteelTorch
02-07-2011, 01:45 PM
Elite? I don't know. I don't know how people even define elite anymore.

I DO think he is a great QB who just happened to have a bad game at the worst possible time. But considering he's gotten us two Lombardi trophies already, I'm still glad to have him on the team.


And while I'm not blaming BA for the loss, last night pretty much reaffirmed my belief that he adds absolutely nothing to the team. Does nothing to make the players better, does not adjust well to defenses, and as always is far too predictable. I'm hoping this loss may increase the chances of him leaving, but I'm not getting my hopes up.

Crash
02-07-2011, 01:52 PM
Elite QB's don't need a running game to make their offenses go.

What was our 2008 running game ranked again?

Mister Pittsburgh
02-07-2011, 02:01 PM
Elite QB's don't need a running game to make their offenses go.

What was our 2008 running game ranked again?

Well, we were ranked 9th in rushing attempts and sucked at running the ball so that tells me they feel that they have to run the ball to be successful regardless of who we are playing.

Elite Qb's and their OC's don't give a crap how many times they run the ball. You think Manning or Brady give a crap how many passes vs. runs they go with. You think they care if their playcalling is 50/50? They take what is there.

williar
02-07-2011, 02:12 PM
He is not elite IMO. An elite QB would have found a way to win that very winnable game, ala Aaron Rogers. Ben is tough, gritty and does some remarkable things, but let's be real. Ben is not going to beat anybody with his arm. I also think his decision making is suspect. He always does one or two things a game that leave you scratching your head.

Crash
02-07-2011, 02:14 PM
You think Manning or Brady give a crap how many passes vs. runs they go with. You think they care if their playcalling is 50/50? They take what is there.

Oh really? Didn't Brady whine for more receiver help after 2006?

Ben's not calling the plays. Ben calls most of the plays when we are in hurry up. But for most of the game Arians calls the plays. I wish Ben would call MORE plays. I wish Ben would tell Arians to take Spaeth and Johnson and go in the locker room.

The two best drives Ben had last night were a combined 14 plays for 143 yards and two scores.

On 11 of the 14, we only had one TE on the field. That's not a coincidence. Spaeth or Johnson did not see the field AT ALL, during the last drive of the first half, and what happened? As usual we went right down the field and scored.

Ben audibles to running plays A LOT. He does take what they give him.

Everyone talks about "play-ground football". I would say this season, a season with 21-9 TD/INT numbers in 15 games, was the least amount of running around he's done all season.

Ben is plenty good in the pocket. The only difference between he and Peyton and Brady is when the pressure comes he doesn't fall into the fetal position and "give up".

feltdizz
02-07-2011, 02:20 PM
He is not elite IMO. An elite QB would have found a way to win that very winnable game, ala Aaron Rogers. Ben is tough, gritty and does some remarkable things, but let's be real. Ben is not going to beat anybody with his arm. I also think his decision making is suspect. He always does one or two things a game that leave you scratching your head.

This is a tough one...

While Ben is great at improvising the knock on him is his decision making when he has time.

Everyone screams about what Ben would do behind a good OL.... well last night he had all day to throw and the protection was pretty good most of the night.

Everyone has a bad day but Ben has had 2 very pedestrian SB's... he is a winner but he isn't a top 3 passer in the NFL IMO...

he is the ultimate football player though... he will get back to the SB and play well.

steeler_fan_in_t.o.
02-07-2011, 02:20 PM
Are we going to base his legacy on three games after 7 years? Sure they are the three biggest games of his career, but how can you not give consideration to games that helped earn SB berths?

He had an off game last night, and did not play well in the playoffs to begin with, but he did manage to take a team that was not predicted to do much this year to the SB. He had an outstanding regular season despite scrambling for his life most of the year on one foot and a busted up face.

How can you call this year a failure just because he failed on the biggest stage without giving him the credit for helping us make it to that stage?

feltdizz
02-07-2011, 02:21 PM
Are we going to base his legacy on three games after 7 years? Sure they are the three biggest games of his career, but how can you not give consideration to games that helped earn SB berths?

He had an off game last night, and did not play well in the playoffs to begin with, but he did manage to take a team that was not predicted to do much this year to the SB. He had an outstanding regular season despite scrambling for his life most of the year on one foot and a busted up face.

How can you call this year a failure just because he failed on the biggest stage without giving him the credit for helping us make it to that stage?

because it's football and the SB defines careers.

steeler_fan_in_t.o.
02-07-2011, 02:30 PM
Are we going to base his legacy on three games after 7 years? Sure they are the three biggest games of his career, but how can you not give consideration to games that helped earn SB berths?

He had an off game last night, and did not play well in the playoffs to begin with, but he did manage to take a team that was not predicted to do much this year to the SB. He had an outstanding regular season despite scrambling for his life most of the year on one foot and a busted up face.

How can you call this year a failure just because he failed on the biggest stage without giving him the credit for helping us make it to that stage?

because it's football and the SB defines careers.

In that case SB wins define a career and if we only look at that then he is 2-1. How many QBs make it to three? How many win two?

Mister Pittsburgh
02-07-2011, 02:30 PM
Are we going to base his legacy on three games after 7 years? Sure they are the three biggest games of his career, but how can you not give consideration to games that helped earn SB berths?

He had an off game last night, and did not play well in the playoffs to begin with, but he did manage to take a team that was not predicted to do much this year to the SB. He had an outstanding regular season despite scrambling for his life most of the year on one foot and a busted up face.

How can you call this year a failure just because he failed on the biggest stage without giving him the credit for helping us make it to that stage?

You could say we weren't expected to do much, but then went 3-1 without Ben.

Sonny
02-07-2011, 02:34 PM
Come on guys. The fact that this is even being asked ON A STEELER BOARD???????

Find me this same question about Manning on a Colts board.

Or Brady.

Or Rodgers.

We're all homers to some extent. If we have to ask this to ourselves? And have it about 50/50? I'd say Ben isn't the best of the best. And that is ok. We, at least I, don't need him to be the best QB in the league.

Mister Pittsburgh
02-07-2011, 02:35 PM
I think Ben gives us a shot to win any game, but that doesn't make him elite.

RuthlessBurgher
02-07-2011, 02:43 PM
I think Ben gives us a shot to win any game, but that doesn't make him elite.

That about all that you can ask of your QB, in my opinion.

Give me a guy who gives us a shot to win any game.

Crash
02-07-2011, 02:47 PM
Are we going to base his legacy on three games after 7 years? Sure they are the three biggest games of his career, but how can you not give consideration to games that helped earn SB berths?

He had an off game last night, and did not play well in the playoffs to begin with, but he did manage to take a team that was not predicted to do much this year to the SB. He had an outstanding regular season despite scrambling for his life most of the year on one foot and a busted up face.

How can you call this year a failure just because he failed on the biggest stage without giving him the credit for helping us make it to that stage?

because it's football and the SB defines careers.

SBs define careers when it serves an agenda. Elway in his FOURTH SB, played like crap.

But you never hear about it, it was "he got the monkey off his back". Ditto for Peyton in 2006. Peyton completed 15 of 30 passes for 170 yards and 2 picks in a playoff game at Baltimore that year, and his play was described as "efficient" by ESPN.

Now we've all seen what they've said about Ben in XL, and against the Jets this year.

Why does Ben constantly play by different rules?

Ben has 3 AFC titles, and 2 rings. Just like Bob Griese.

Griese's in the Hall. And Ben's better than he was.

Ghost
02-07-2011, 02:50 PM
Curious - do you guys think that will all that happened this season Ben will approach the off season differntly this year? There's always been rumblings that he wasn't a film rat to the extent a lot of guys were and he clearly put on weight over every summer (prior to the suspension). I believe he has a losing record in September for his career but is damn near impossible to beat come October.

Maybe this loss has him working harder than ever.

It's been a great ride so far. :tt2

Mister Pittsburgh
02-07-2011, 02:53 PM
Are we going to base his legacy on three games after 7 years? Sure they are the three biggest games of his career, but how can you not give consideration to games that helped earn SB berths?

He had an off game last night, and did not play well in the playoffs to begin with, but he did manage to take a team that was not predicted to do much this year to the SB. He had an outstanding regular season despite scrambling for his life most of the year on one foot and a busted up face.

How can you call this year a failure just because he failed on the biggest stage without giving him the credit for helping us make it to that stage?

because it's football and the SB defines careers.

SBs define careers when it serves an agenda. Elway in his FOURTH SB, played like crap.

But you never hear about it, it was "he got the monkey off his back". Ditto for Peyton in 2006. Peyton completed 15 of 30 passes for 170 yards and 2 picks in a playoff game at Baltimore that year, and his play was described as "efficient" by ESPN.

Now we've all seen what they've said about Ben in XL, and against the Jets this year.

Why does Ben constantly play by different rules?

Ben has 3 AFC titles, and 2 rings. Just like Bob Griese.

Griese's in the Hall. And Ben's better than he was.

How many times did those guys have defenses that were tops in the league or damn close to it?

Mister Pittsburgh
02-07-2011, 03:02 PM
Big Ben's undeserved reputation
The Pittsburgh quarterback has never been as clutch as he's been perceived to be
By Bill Barnwell
Football Outsiders

The case for Ben Roethlisberger as a big-game quarterback before Super Bowl XLV was very clear. The narrative is not that hard to follow, since it eventually boils down to his 10-2 playoff record and a pair of Super Bowl rings. His performance in wins over the Baltimore Ravens and New York Jets this postseason merely added to his book of clutch wins. By leading a dramatic comeback over the Ravens and shutting up the Jets with a rushing touchdown in the second quarter and two key completions on Pittsburgh's final drive, Roethlisberger helped the Steelers reach Sunday's big game.
After losing to the Green Bay Packers, though, it's temporarily difficult to say that Roethlisberger finds a way to win when the game's on the line. He was clearly outplayed by his opposite number, throwing two picks and failing to lead his two-minute offense to the Packers' side of the field late in the game. That's not enough to tarnish his reputation, though, is it?
The truth is that it's not totally clear why Roethlisberger deserves such a reputation in the first place. A closer look at his play in big games suggests that Roethlisberger's actual performance isn't all that it's been purported to be.
Truthfully, Roethlisberger hasn't played very well in this year's playoffs. That incredible comeback against the Ravens came on the heels of a 17-point third quarter, in which the Steelers scored on three drives with 25 yards to go or less. (Their magic mysteriously vanished on the two drives that started inside their own territory during that quarter, which produced 26 yards and two punts.) He needed those two critical passes on the final drive against the Jets because his offense had totally shut down after producing 17 points in the first half, with an interception, a drive that produced 13 yards before a punt and a Roethlisberger fumble that resulted in a safety. He finished the day 10-of-19 for 133 yards with two picks. No matter how you slice it, that's not a good performance.
The other numbers don't look good under the light of day, either. One of those rings, of course, came during Roethlisberger's ugly day in Super Bowl XL, in which he was 9-of-21 for 123 yards with two interceptions. That's not leading your team to a ring; it's being dragged by the other 52 guys toward one. Among his wins are another ugly performance against the Jets (17-of-30 for 181 yards with two picks) and an abbreviated showing against the Chargers (17-of-26 for 181 yards with a touchdown and a 25-yard pooch punt).
There are two problems with the conventional wisdom here, and they're not new to readers of this column. One is that using win-loss records as a measure of player performance reduce them to "good" and "bad" games without any context. Would anyone say that Roethlisberger's performance against the Seattle Seahawks was as good as his truly impressive performance against the Arizona Cardinals in Super Bowl XLIII? Of course not. By solely saying Roethlisberger produced two rings, though, we place equal value on his performances in those two games.

Steeler Shades
02-07-2011, 03:06 PM
You know what, to be honest, no, I don't think he is an elite QB. I think he has games here and there, and moments here and there, where he does some amazing things. But game in and game out, I wouldn't say he is top 3 or 4 in the league. Rodgers put the ball on the money, under pressure, with no running game to speak of. If his WR caught the balls that were right there for them we get blown out.

Ben threw high, threw low, threw to the other team, and he had a running game to work off of. Same in the Jets game.

The ball was in his hands with 2 minutes left and it was a chinese fire drill out there. He had no command of the offense in that moment.

.. he isn't a top 3 passer in the NFL IMO...

I'd say Ben isn't the best of the best

I think Ben gives us a shot to win any game, but that doesn't make him elite.
I agree with all of the above posts. He is not elite but his sandlot style works with the Steelers offense and he gives us a shot to win any game that the defense can help keep the score reasonable. 8)

Mister Pittsburgh
02-07-2011, 03:28 PM
I just think it is tough with Ben sometimes because what makes him so unusual, and at times great, is also what makes him look like crap. I mean i think we can all agree to a point with what Steve Young was saying where Ben is pretty average as a strict pocket passer on designed plays. I do anyway. But he is great when the play breaks down and he gets to run around.

Well how do you gameplan to attack a defense with a QB that is just average as an in the pocket passer with the designed plays? How can you blame the WR for not being on the same page with a QB that might not pull the trigger and throw the ball on their designed route and then they have to run around to extend the play? Just seems like things would be easier if Ben was an in the pocket passer and we had a solid designed system vs. backyard football.

Captain Lemming
02-07-2011, 03:46 PM
I just think it is tough with Ben sometimes because what makes him so unusual, and at times great, is also what makes him look like crap. I mean i think we can all agree to a point with what Steve Young was saying where Ben is pretty average as a strict pocket passer on designed plays. I do anyway. But he is great when the play breaks down and he gets to run around.

Well how do you gameplan to attack a defense with a QB that is just average as an in the pocket passer with the designed plays? How can you blame the WR for not being on the same page with a QB that might not pull the trigger and throw the ball on their designed route and then they have to run around to extend the play? Just seems like things would be easier if Ben was an in the pocket passer and we had a solid designed system vs. backyard football.

Conversely, this same unscripted style cannot be prepared for by an opposing defense, so it works both ways.
Yesterdays problems were less to do with his style of play than it was simply having an "off" first half.

feltdizz
02-07-2011, 04:00 PM
I just think it is tough with Ben sometimes because what makes him so unusual, and at times great, is also what makes him look like crap. I mean i think we can all agree to a point with what Steve Young was saying where Ben is pretty average as a strict pocket passer on designed plays. I do anyway. But he is great when the play breaks down and he gets to run around.

Well how do you gameplan to attack a defense with a QB that is just average as an in the pocket passer with the designed plays? How can you blame the WR for not being on the same page with a QB that might not pull the trigger and throw the ball on their designed route and then they have to run around to extend the play? Just seems like things would be easier if Ben was an in the pocket passer and we had a solid designed system vs. backyard football.

Ben is who he is... but I think his style is part of the reason our O goes into a funk every year for a few games.

We are lucky we weren't blown out by GB.

Mister Pittsburgh
02-07-2011, 04:13 PM
I am thinking we need to just build up the offensive line and get a real fullback.

Steelhere10
02-07-2011, 04:25 PM
To be honest I didn't have a problem with the first int, but the second one he threw into double coverage after eye balling Wallace the whole time. I have a bigger problem with him being off the mark a lot.

Steelerphile
02-07-2011, 04:27 PM
Without the pick 6, the Steelers might have won. It was a good game and Ben is certainly capable of a better performance. I was expecting more from him, but Rodgers was better in rhe SuperBowl. Just like a lot of people predicted.

It seemed to me the nerves got to him a lot and Rodgers was cool and efficient.

feltdizz
02-07-2011, 04:51 PM
[quote="steeler_fan_in_t.o.":1e2ngkyd]Are we going to base his legacy on three games after 7 years? Sure they are the three biggest games of his career, but how can you not give consideration to games that helped earn SB berths?

He had an off game last night, and did not play well in the playoffs to begin with, but he did manage to take a team that was not predicted to do much this year to the SB. He had an outstanding regular season despite scrambling for his life most of the year on one foot and a busted up face.

How can you call this year a failure just because he failed on the biggest stage without giving him the credit for helping us make it to that stage?

because it's football and the SB defines careers.

In that case SB wins define a career and if we only look at that then he is 2-1. How many QBs make it to three? How many win two?[/quote:1e2ngkyd]

SB performances define careers IMO... not wins and losses.

Ben has 2 rings but most Steeler fans reference the last drive in SB43 or the games leading up to SB40.

Aaron Rodgers has just as much highlight film in 1 SB as Ben has in all 3.... this is why people still doubt Ben as an elite QB.

On another note... this game is where our youth was our downfall... the youngsters looked like the game was too big for them.

_SteeL_CurtaiN_
02-07-2011, 05:19 PM
Yes Ben is elite, the only criteria is championships.

Crash
02-07-2011, 06:06 PM
[quote="steeler_fan_in_t.o.":1icffztv]Are we going to base his legacy on three games after 7 years? Sure they are the three biggest games of his career, but how can you not give consideration to games that helped earn SB berths?

He had an off game last night, and did not play well in the playoffs to begin with, but he did manage to take a team that was not predicted to do much this year to the SB. He had an outstanding regular season despite scrambling for his life most of the year on one foot and a busted up face.

How can you call this year a failure just because he failed on the biggest stage without giving him the credit for helping us make it to that stage?

because it's football and the SB defines careers.

SBs define careers when it serves an agenda. Elway in his FOURTH SB, played like crap.

But you never hear about it, it was "he got the monkey off his back". Ditto for Peyton in 2006. Peyton completed 15 of 30 passes for 170 yards and 2 picks in a playoff game at Baltimore that year, and his play was described as "efficient" by ESPN.

Now we've all seen what they've said about Ben in XL, and against the Jets this year.

Why does Ben constantly play by different rules?

Ben has 3 AFC titles, and 2 rings. Just like Bob Griese.

Griese's in the Hall. And Ben's better than he was.

How many times did those guys have defenses that were tops in the league or damn close to it?[/quote:1icffztv]

The Dolphins defense in BOTH Super Bowl wins for Griese in 8 quarters of play gave up ONE TOUCHDOWN.

Ben's defense in their last 5 quarters of SB play gave up FIVE!

Chadman
02-07-2011, 07:12 PM
Honest opinion- this last SB will do nothing to detract the doubters.

Don't bother arguing it- you know it as well as Chadman. Nothing that happened out there made Ben look elite, regardless of whether he is or not.

In the end, does it matter though?

Mister Pittsburgh
02-07-2011, 07:22 PM
Yes Ben is elite, the only criteria is championships.

So if you have all the QB's through the last 40 years to choose from to start a franchise from, you would pick Ben over Dan Marino?

Mister Pittsburgh
02-07-2011, 07:30 PM
[quote="steeler_fan_in_t.o.":3qx7f47x]Are we going to base his legacy on three games after 7 years? Sure they are the three biggest games of his career, but how can you not give consideration to games that helped earn SB berths?

He had an off game last night, and did not play well in the playoffs to begin with, but he did manage to take a team that was not predicted to do much this year to the SB. He had an outstanding regular season despite scrambling for his life most of the year on one foot and a busted up face.

How can you call this year a failure just because he failed on the biggest stage without giving him the credit for helping us make it to that stage?

because it's football and the SB defines careers.

SBs define careers when it serves an agenda. Elway in his FOURTH SB, played like crap.

But you never hear about it, it was "he got the monkey off his back". Ditto for Peyton in 2006. Peyton completed 15 of 30 passes for 170 yards and 2 picks in a playoff game at Baltimore that year, and his play was described as "efficient" by ESPN.

Now we've all seen what they've said about Ben in XL, and against the Jets this year.

Why does Ben constantly play by different rules?

Ben has 3 AFC titles, and 2 rings. Just like Bob Griese.

Griese's in the Hall. And Ben's better than he was.

How many times did those guys have defenses that were tops in the league or damn close to it?

The Dolphins defense in BOTH Super Bowl wins for Griese in 8 quarters of play gave up ONE TOUCHDOWN.

Ben's defense in their last 5 quarters of SB play gave up FIVE![/quote:3qx7f47x]

Look, I personally feel Ben played pretty poorly this entire playoff run & SB. You don't. That is cool. Maybe he will go down as one of the top QB's ever. I have no idea. It's just my opinion that when what he does works, he looks like a superstar, and when it doesn't, he looks lost and subpar.

I would like to see Ben with an OC that would put him in a normalized offense with the young WR we have and the TE that we have and the RB that we have and force him to play the position more like a normal QB where he actually has to go beyond his first read and go through is progressions to find the open man. An offense where the WR routes aren't mostly 20 yards downfield. That's just me and nobody has to agree. Just what I would like to see. Its great to be able to make something happen if the play breaks down, but if that is your whole offense, then something is wrong.

bostonsteeler
02-07-2011, 09:02 PM
Am I the only person to perceive that Ben displayed less of a killer instinct this year than in past years?
In the past, as the going got tougher, he got more accurate.
This year, his end-game play was not any different from his mid-game play. Perhaps all the messing with his head in the off-season by Goodell, the media, et. al. has affected that?

Also, with a different OC, I think we are an unstoppable offence. BA has the creativity of a rock.

NJ-STEELER
02-07-2011, 09:02 PM
anuetral observers i'm hearing today arent even saying he had a bad game yesterday. not great, but not as bad as some of our own fans apperantly think

Dee Dub
02-07-2011, 09:08 PM
... 3 SB one won inspite of him.....

For you to say this ignores what Ben did on the road in Cincinnati, Indianapolis, and Denver. But typical fan....what have you done for me lately. :roll:

Shoe
02-07-2011, 09:10 PM
This is truly a sick thread. 3 SB appearances, 7 years. 4 trips to AFCC in 7 years. Gimme a break. If I had more time, inclination, I'd post Ben's 7 years as a starter vs. anyone's first 7. I do know that Ben's Yards Per Attempt (probably the single most important stat correlating QB play with winning) is at around 8.0, which is very very high.

That all being said, I really expected us to win because I thought Ben was the difference for us. And it turned out not to be the case. Two minutes, 1 TO, 80+ yards... I was stunned that we didn't have more of a shot at the end. Just the high bar he's set for himself.

mshifko
02-07-2011, 09:17 PM
elite...it's not always pretty, but he gets it done. ben does the little things so well, and all that matters is W's...last night, he wasn't on his game. he knows it, the team knows it. he'll bounce back. give 7 a year to let this simmer and you'll see an inspired QB with A LOT to prove. i'm looking forward to next season.

Steeler Shades
02-07-2011, 09:24 PM
anuetral observers i'm hearing today arent even saying he had a bad game yesterday. not great, but not as bad as some of our own fans apperantly think
Interesting. Before the SB most of the talking heads didn't think Ben was a top five QB. Following yesterdays game you're now hearing that he is elite? Or still not elite but just not bad? This thread is still about whether Ben should be considered elite...right? 8)

chiken
02-07-2011, 09:35 PM
Elite?
Man has anyone looked at our Receiving core? I mean really looked at it. We were Relying heavily on a 2nd year guy playing the position for the first time and 2 (mid and late round) rookies.

Hines Cannot consistently beat a Double Team and El is... Damn he is old with reliable hands but no threat to do crap when he catches the ball.

We got all we could get out of this offense this year. Did you not See the sheer and utter confusion on Wallace and Brown?

Ben Had a rough year with the Receivers because they were all going through growing pains. Heck the 1st 4 games he couldn't even get in tuned with them because he wasn't there.

When did Brown actually start getting on the field more? 5 weeks ago?

You want Ben to set up and throw after a 3 or 5 step drop but you see we don't have anyone open. WALLACE is seeing the double team and Ward Cannot beat man coverage enough. You have to Wait to give these guys time to Get open..

Ask Brady about how tough life can be when your receivers cant get open. what about Manning who was forced to play with some youth at the receiving spot..

IS Ben Elite.. wow. He just played in the fricken Superbowl - our defense was awesome against the sisters of the poor this year. Against the Dogs that mattered. Well you all saw it, come on guys, this is getting to be ridiculous.

Steeler Shades
02-07-2011, 09:41 PM
IS Ben Elite.. wow. He just played in the fricken Superbowl ..
Just playing in the SB does not make a QB elite. 8)

chiken
02-07-2011, 09:47 PM
IS Ben Elite.. wow. He just played in the fricken Superbowl ..
Just playing in the SB does not make a QB elite. 8)

It is when its your 3rd time in 6 years and your post season record is 10-3.

Steeler Shades
02-07-2011, 09:57 PM
IS Ben Elite.. wow. He just played in the fricken Superbowl ..
Just playing in the SB does not make a QB elite. 8)
It is when its your 3rd time in 6 years and your post season record is 10-3.
I disagree. 8)

NorthCoast
02-07-2011, 10:58 PM
I am not going to argue the "eliteness" of Ben.

But answer this question truthfully and you will find his value to the Steelers (or any team).

If Ben is traded to another AFC North team and we had to play him twice a year for the next decade, would you feel comfortable going into those games that we could defeat him consistently?




.....I thought not.......Ben is a winner plain and simple.

As others have pointed out, we have had top 10 defenses for most of a decade and could only get to the big game once Ben arrived on offense.

NJ-STEELER
02-07-2011, 11:16 PM
[quote="NJ-STEELER":23shiu8i]anuetral observers i'm hearing today arent even saying he had a bad game yesterday. not great, but not as bad as some of our own fans apperantly think
Interesting. Before the SB most of the talking heads didn't think Ben was a top five QB. Following yesterdays game you're now hearing that he is elite? Or still not elite but just not bad? This thread is still about whether Ben should be considered elite...right? 8)[/quote:23shiu8i]


coming from a guy that has bashed him in his career, these were his exact words


"ben might get it done ugly some of the time, but he is a great football player, a great football player"

Crash
02-08-2011, 02:12 AM
[quote="_SteeL_CurtaiN_":3vof5du0]Yes Ben is elite, the only criteria is championships.

So if you have all the QB's through the last 40 years to choose from to start a franchise from, you would pick Ben over Dan Marino?[/quote:3vof5du0]

Do you want stats or do you want big games won?

Ben has the stats after 7 years. He compares very similar to Joe Montana after seven years in the league.

For the 100th time, every eligible QB who has won three conference titles is in the HOF.

Get Ben's bust ready.

Crash
02-08-2011, 02:17 AM
In the past, as the going got tougher, he got more accurate.

They were down 21-3 and were one pass away from taking a 3rd quarter lead and one Mendy fumble away from a possible 4th quarter lead.

How much tougher do you need it?

He was actually pretty good in the second half. It was the first half he struggled until, big surprise here, they took the backup TEs off the field down 21-3 and went right down the %^&* field in two minutes with their wide outs.

JAR
02-08-2011, 10:35 AM
But manning is still elite for losing 44 and choking in the playoffs this year.

But Brady is still elite for losing 42 and choking in every single playoff game since.

MaxAMillion
02-08-2011, 11:03 AM
Depends on how you define elite. I think Ben is one of the 6-7 best QB in the league. If you define that as elite then he should be considered as such. If elite is top 3-4 then I wouldn't put him in that class. Rodgers played better than Ben from start to finish. I think Rodgers is a better QB. If you switched QB and the Steelers had Rodgers, they would have won the game. I don't think that can be argued. Rodgers was hitting receivers in the hands who were well covered while Ben was missing receivers who were open with no DB in front to throw around or over.

The Packers clearly decided to focus on keeping Ben in the pocket. They used Matthews as a spy for a lot of the game (that move didn't make sense to me) and they had their DL stay in their lanes. This meant that Ben didn't have a lot of guys in his face but he also couldn't get out of the pocket and make a lot of plays. It seemed to work because Ben was not nearly as effective.

The other issue is that the Packers could play a lot of man with safety help for Wallace. Our WR are not that good in beating man coverage. This was where losing Holmes hurt. He would have been the perfect compliment for Wallace. Ben had both Holmes and Wallace on the field last year and it made the passing game that much more effective. Maybe the rookie WR's will get to Holmes level, but they are not there right now (clearly losing Sanders to injury hurt).

steeler_fan_in_t.o.
02-08-2011, 12:32 PM
[quote="steeler_fan_in_t.o.":3uk7akcs]Are we going to base his legacy on three games after 7 years? Sure they are the three biggest games of his career, but how can you not give consideration to games that helped earn SB berths?

He had an off game last night, and did not play well in the playoffs to begin with, but he did manage to take a team that was not predicted to do much this year to the SB. He had an outstanding regular season despite scrambling for his life most of the year on one foot and a busted up face.

How can you call this year a failure just because he failed on the biggest stage without giving him the credit for helping us make it to that stage?

You could say we weren't expected to do much, but then went 3-1 without Ben.[/quote:3uk7akcs]

You can also say that the Pats were expected to crumble when Brady went down the first game of the season but still went to the playoffs that year.

Does that change his status?

Crash
02-08-2011, 01:01 PM
Rodgers played better than Ben from start to finish. I think Rodgers is a better QB. If you switched QB and the Steelers had Rodgers, they would have won the game.

And you could also say if Ben was on GB and they used the wide outs they had with him GB could have won also.

GB worries about winning games. We are to pre-occupied with playing smashmouth football.

Rodgers and Ben are the two best QBs in football. I said that before the game. Each would have success on their own teams and if they switched teams.

Steeler Shades
02-08-2011, 01:44 PM
Rodgers played better than Ben from start to finish. I think Rodgers is a better QB. If you switched QB and the Steelers had Rodgers, they would have won the game.And you could also say if Ben was on GB and they used the wide outs they had with him GB could have won also.
I would disagree. The GB receivers dropped more passes than Ben accurately threw in the SB. The combination might have earned him a lower QB rating than he had in his first SB appearance. 8)

RuthlessBurgher
02-08-2011, 02:22 PM
[quote="Mister Pittsburgh":3jzhnec3][quote="steeler_fan_in_t.o.":3jzhnec3]Are we going to base his legacy on three games after 7 years? Sure they are the three biggest games of his career, but how can you not give consideration to games that helped earn SB berths?

He had an off game last night, and did not play well in the playoffs to begin with, but he did manage to take a team that was not predicted to do much this year to the SB. He had an outstanding regular season despite scrambling for his life most of the year on one foot and a busted up face.

How can you call this year a failure just because he failed on the biggest stage without giving him the credit for helping us make it to that stage?

You could say we weren't expected to do much, but then went 3-1 without Ben.[/quote:3jzhnec3]

You can also say that the Pats were expected to crumble when Brady went down the first game of the season but still went to the playoffs that year.

Does that change his status?[/quote:3jzhnec3]

Actually, New England missed the playoffs without Brady in 2008. They were 11-5, but lost the conference record tiebreaker (84 vs. 75) to the 11-5 Dolphins for the AFC East title, and also lost the conference record tiebreaker (also 84 vs. 75) to the 11-5 Ravens for the final wild card spot.

1. Titans (13-3)
2. Steelers (12-4)
3. Dolphins (11-5)
4. Chargers (8-8)
5. Colts (12-4)
6. Ravens (11-5)

7. Patriots (11-5)

But your point is well taken nonetheless. :wink:

An 11-5 record gets you into the playoffs virtually any other year. They were actually 2 games better in the regular season than the eventual NFC Champion 9-7 Cardinals that year and 3 games better than the AFC West champion 8-8 Chargers (who upset the 12-4 Colts in the playoffs much like the 7-9 Seahawks upset the 11-5 Saints this year).

ScoreKeeper
02-08-2011, 03:04 PM
My God people, we lost a close SB to very good team. We didn't go 6-10.

We'll be back next year and we'll win the f ucking thing. :tt2

You have to figure this was not our year to begin with. We won in 05, then off in 06 and 07, and winning in 08. That's two years between SB's. Take 09 and 10 off and win it 11. It's a pattern.

SteelTorch
02-08-2011, 03:07 PM
This thread is an absolute joke. We just lost a SB and the only thing people seem to care about is whether or not Ben is "elite".

For the record, I think the very argument of what defines an "elite" QB is a total sham. People don't hesitate to put Peyton Manning as elite despite choking in the playoffs throughout his entire career. Carson Palmer was called "elite" until he started going downhill in his performance. And Ben, despite winning two Superbowls and a being a great regular season quarterback, isn't "elite" according to some.

This whole thread is a waste of time and is only detracting from the real issues at hand.

Yinz should be ashamed of yourselves. :nono

Shoe
02-10-2011, 12:09 AM
I think Rodgers is a better QB. If you switched QB and the Steelers had Rodgers, they would have won the game. I don't think that can be argued.

You are/have fallen victim to the media slurping of Aaron Rodgers all year long.

Crash
02-10-2011, 12:17 AM
I agree though, Rodgers is good. I think he and Ben are equals. Each would win playing on either team.

I just don't like how Ben's 35 passer rating in the AFC title game is brought up, but Rodgers' 55 rating from three hours earlier on the same day was ignored.

Ben struggles for a half against the Ravens, then scores on short fields, and somehow that diminishes his day.

But Rodgers offense scores TEN POINTS AT HOME in a win or go home game in week 16 to get in the playoffs and thats not a problem.

I said it before the game. Except for one quarter in Atlanta the Packers have been nail biting just like we had been.

And despite our three turnovers to their zero? The Super Bowl came down the same way. To the wire.

Ben IS held to a different standard.

Only the media knows why.

Wolfhound45
02-10-2011, 12:26 AM
Honestly? Nope.

Does he have the potential to be elite? Absolutely.

Does he live up to that potential? Again, nope.

Crash
02-10-2011, 12:27 AM
Honestly? Nope.

Does he have the potential to be elite? Absolutely.

Does he live up to that potential? Again, nope.

Then who does and why?

Crash
02-10-2011, 12:48 AM
Comparison (Roethlisberger vs Rodgers 3 seasons ages 25-27)

Rodgers: Team Record: 27-20, 1 Superbowl. 64.6 comp%, 86 td, 31 int, 98.4 qb rating

Roethlisberger: Team Record: 31-15, 1 Superbowl. 63.9 comp%, 85 td, 38 int, 94.9 qb rating

But somehow Aaron Rodgers is the second coming and Ben isn't elite.

WTF ever people.

Wolfhound45
02-10-2011, 01:09 AM
Honestly? Nope.

Does he have the potential to be elite? Absolutely.

Does he live up to that potential? Again, nope.

Then who does and why?

Will not waste my time getting into arguments about "who" but I can talk to you about the "why." Being elite is about passion. I work with elite soldiers every day in my profession. Each of them is characterized by a passion to be the best that they can be at their chosen profession. It is the nature of what they do.

I am of the opinion that Ben could be the greatest QB that the NFL has ever seen. Period. What I often see is simply a lack of comimitment to to become the greatest. The study off the field to better prepare himself. The additional reps on the practice field to hone his skills. He seems to be satisfied with who he is. The elite are never satisfied.

Again, an opinion.

Crash
02-10-2011, 01:13 AM
How do you know how much he studies? Are you there? You are in the complex? You are in the film room in his home? You see what he does once they fax the game plans to him each Tuesday night?

You have speculation. Nothing else.

Passion? Would this be about the same guy who hasn't missed a snap even though he played through a broken nose and a fractured foot? You think Ben would ever quit like Jay Cutler did?

Wolfhound45
02-10-2011, 01:20 AM
How do you know how much he studies? Are you there? You are in the complex? You are in the film room in his home? You see what he does once they facts the game plans to him each Tuesday night?

You have speculation. Nothing else.

Save your keystrokes. That is why I said an opinion, nothing else.

Conversely, you are not in the complex or on the practice field either. So you do not know how much time he puts in (a silly argument on your part actually). Or as you said, you have speculation, nothing else.

Having said that, I will ask you to quote ANY article that says he spends additional time doing those things. It has not been his reputation.

Setting that aside, translate what he does on the field in his chosen craft. Statistically, he is called upon to successfully THROW THE BALL. How well does he do that compared to 31 others in HIS CHOSEN CRAFT? He is above average, near the top. He has the physical and mental tools to be at the very top. Does he have the will to get there?

I am of the opinion he does not.

Crash
02-10-2011, 01:27 AM
Setting that aside, translate what he does on the field in his chosen craft. Statistically, he is called upon to successfully THROW THE BALL. How well does he do that compared to 31 others in HIS CHOSEN CRAFT?

Very well. In fact after seven seasons Ben's overall numbers compare to Joe Montana who is arguably the best QB of all time.

Ben's been in the top 5 in NFL QB rating five times in seven years.

Bet you didn't know that either.

He's a big time clutch player who gets pigeon-holed by the "reputation" of Steeler football despite the constant change around him and playing in cold weather.

Ben and Rodgers are clearly the best two QBs in football.

Wolfhound45
02-10-2011, 01:52 AM
Love that ignore function. Two for the price of one.

hawaiiansteel
02-10-2011, 02:36 PM
THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 10, 2011

Be careful who you blame


Like Neil O'Donnell before him, Ben Roethlisberger is taking a lot of heat for his play in the Super Bowl.

But, like O'Donnell, there were some key plays during the game when the Steelers' young receivers did not run their routes as expected, resulting in some incompletions.

For example, on the Steelers' first offensive series, Roethlisberger made a throw to Antonio Brown's back shoulder that the receiver didn't read correctly, continuing his route down the field. The back shoulder throw was open had Brown adjusted, but the ball sailed out of bounds, looking like a horrible throw by Roethlisberger.

And on the deep route to Mike Wallace late in the game, Roethlisberger made the throw to the spot where the ball was supposed to go - to the pylon. But Wallace cut his route off more shallow than he should have, resulting in a pass in which it looked like Roethlisberger overthrew him badly.

We also saw Wallace struggling in the two-minute offense late in the game, not knowing what the play was.

These are the kind of things that happen with young receivers - even talented ones. Sometimes they make mistakes and the quarterback takes the blame.

That's why there is a belief that receivers don't hit their stride until their third year, which shows the arrow pointing up for the Steelers' passing game.

http://nflfromthesidelines.blogspot.com/

Crash
02-10-2011, 02:56 PM
Could it be possible that Wallace hit the wall? First year as a starter, more snaps, more running deep patterns based on sheer numbers?

Buddy of mine said he looked tired like Evgeni Malkin did in his first Finals in 2008. Just sluggish.

feltdizz
02-10-2011, 04:17 PM
Could it be possible that Wallace hit the wall? First year as a starter, more snaps, more running deep patterns based on sheer numbers?

Buddy of mine said he looked tired like Evgeni Malkin did in his first Finals in 2008. Just sluggish.

2 weeks to get himself in gear... I think it was the pressure that rattled our young guys.

Ben was throwing high though... he was off as well.

NJ-STEELER
02-10-2011, 07:24 PM
Could it be possible that Wallace hit the wall? First year as a starter, more snaps, more running deep patterns based on sheer numbers?

Buddy of mine said he looked tired like Evgeni Malkin did in his first Finals in 2008. Just sluggish.


i think its more defenses focusing on him

Crash
02-10-2011, 07:51 PM
The national media isn't going to like this.

http://fifthdown.blogs.nytimes.com/2011 ... l-of-fame/ (http://fifthdown.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/02/10/ben-roethlisberger-and-the-hall-of-fame/)

RuthlessBurgher
02-10-2011, 10:44 PM
Could it be possible that Wallace hit the wall? First year as a starter, more snaps, more running deep patterns based on sheer numbers?

Buddy of mine said he looked tired like Evgeni Malkin did in his first Finals in 2008. Just sluggish.


i think its more defenses focusing on him

Yup...and the extra attention Wallace gets means opportunities for others. Ben seemed to have no problem throwing to guys like Antonio Brown in big spots against the Ravens and Jets, but in the final drive in the Super Bowl, he seemed to focus in on Wallace as his "go to" guy like he did with Santonio in the final drive against Arizona. He tried to force things to Wallace instead of simply taking what the defense gave him. Fatal mistake.