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View Full Version : "He wins Super Bowls because he plays with a great defense".



Dee Dub
01-24-2011, 08:55 PM
.........Crap!! I am sick of hearing how Ben has won two Super Bowls because he has played on a team that has had great defenses. Are you kidding me? If it was that easy then Jay Cutler would have one. Or Mark Sanchez would have one. Or Joe Flacco would have one. Or Phillip Rivers who played with the number one ranked defense this year would have one. Or Donovan McNabb when he played in Philadelphia. Or Fran Tarkenton when he played with the Purple People Eaters. Or Jim Kelly when he played with Buffalo.

It's not that easy. You still need a big time quarterback who makes big time plays when the stage is it's brightest.

Do people forget when the Steelers for many years had the number one ranked defense and often the number one rushing team at the same time and had Kordell Stewart, Neil O'Donnell, and Tommy Maddox as their quarterback?

It just isnt that easy. And thank God the Steelers have Ben Roethlisberger.

He is the sole reason why the Steelers are the elite franchise in the NFL. Had he not come to Pittsburgh they would be stuck on 4 Super Bowl trophies. Now they are on the verge of their 7th.

Djfan
01-24-2011, 08:57 PM
Let them talk. Ben will collect rings, and they will be experts. It works for me.

JAR
01-24-2011, 09:24 PM
Ben was actually get a lot of love today on ESPN from various guys. A lot are waking up to the fact that stats don't matter, winning games does and Ben makes plays to win games.

steelz09
01-24-2011, 09:29 PM
I'm especially sick of Steve Young. I hated him as a player and I hate him more as an "nfl analyst". He gives Ben absolutely no credit at all.

Steve Young will give every excuse in the book as to why Ben wins including the defense.

I would love to have a 2 minutes interview with the guy. I could use the same logic as to why Steve Young won. Let's see...

1) Steve Young had what most people agree to be the best wide receiver of all time in Jerry Rice

2) Young had Taylor. Taylor would have been a #1 receiver on most teams.

3) Young also had a good defense. Not as good as the Steelers but still good.

Dee Dub
01-24-2011, 09:32 PM
I'm especially sick of Steve Young. I hated him as a player and I hate him more as an "nfl analyst". He gives Ben absolutely no credit at all.

Steve Young will give every excuse in the book as to why Ben wins including the defense.

I would love to have a 2 minutes interview with the guy. I could use the same logic as to why Steve Young won. Let's see...

1) Steve Young had what most people agree to be the best wide receiver of all time in Jerry Rice

2) Young had Taylor. Taylor would have been a #1 receiver on most teams.

3) Young also had a good defense. Not as good as the Steelers but still good.

And Marshall Faulk says Ben only has 1 1/2 Super Bowl rings.

Crash
01-24-2011, 09:45 PM
Steve Young is bitter because when he played like Ben his own fans used to yell at him to stay in the pocket and "be like Joe".

So now he wants Ben to get the same abuse.

Irongut
01-24-2011, 09:55 PM
Ben certainly deserves credity but he isn't winning any titles without this defense.

Dee Dub
01-24-2011, 10:03 PM
Ben certainly deserves credity but he isn't winning any titles without this defense.

How many times did the Steelers have the number one overall defense between 1994 and 2004? ANd how many championships did they win?

You have it backwards. This defense isnt winning any championships without Ben.

Square peg into the round hole. Put Kordell Stewart as the quarterback on this team with this defense....and quite frankly...they do not go to the Super Bowl.

proudpittsburgher
01-24-2011, 10:07 PM
Ben certainly deserves credity but he isn't winning any titles without this defense.


i say this in all seriousness and am not trying to start a war with this. . . do you just say this sh&* to try and start an argument with crash?

JAR
01-24-2011, 10:08 PM
Ben certainly deserves credity but he isn't winning any titles without this defense.


i say this in all seriousness and am not trying to start a war with this. . . do you just say this sh&* to try and start an argument with crash?

I believe irongut is nothing but a troll

Irongut
01-24-2011, 10:16 PM
Ben certainly deserves credity but he isn't winning any titles without this defense.


i say this in all seriousness and am not trying to start a war with this. . . do you just say this sh&* to try and start an argument with crash?

I believe irongut is nothing but a troll

Congrats for confirming you're an idiot.

To PPB, I say it because it is true. This team is and likely always will be a defensive team. Every SB since 2004 we have had a top 5 defense. We haven't had any top 5 offenses in that span. Sure Ben makes plays but the team doesn't win crap without the defense.

proudpittsburgher
01-24-2011, 10:23 PM
Ben certainly deserves credity but he isn't winning any titles without this defense.


i say this in all seriousness and am not trying to start a war with this. . . do you just say this sh&* to try and start an argument with crash?

I believe irongut is nothing but a troll

Congrats for confirming you're an idiot.

To PPB, I say it because it is true. This team is and likely always will be a defensive team. Every SB since 2004 we have had a top 5 defense. We haven't had any top 5 offenses in that span. Sure Ben makes plays but the team doesn't win crap without the defense.


How can you say somethign that can't be proven, since its your speculation, is true? And if you don't think that the two go hand in hand (Ben and the defense), then you haven't been watching the games. Ben has pulled plenty of games out that the defense let go, and the defense has held on to leads that the offense tried givign away. Or a Ben led offense giving us a lead puts the defense in a position to put more pressure against a must-pass offense. I could just as easily say that The defense wouldn't win a super bowl without a Ben-led offense, cause, well, it's true, or so says I. They go hand in hand.

Chachi
01-24-2011, 10:29 PM
Respect don't win you rings.

Rings win you respect.

The media can keep their respect.

I want rings.

JAR
01-24-2011, 10:30 PM
Ben certainly deserves credity but he isn't winning any titles without this defense.


i say this in all seriousness and am not trying to start a war with this. . . do you just say this sh&* to try and start an argument with crash?

I believe irongut is nothing but a troll

Congrats for confirming you're an idiot.

To PPB, I say it because it is true. This team is and likely always will be a defensive team. Every SB since 2004 we have had a top 5 defense. We haven't had any top 5 offenses in that span. Sure Ben makes plays but the team doesn't win crap without the defense.


How can you say somethign that can't be proven, since its your speculation, is true? And if you don't think that the two go hand in hand (Ben and the defense), then you haven't been watching the games. Ben has pulled plenty of games out that the defense let go, and the defense has held on to leads that the offense tried givign away. Or a Ben led offense giving us a lead puts the defense in a position to put more pressure against a must-pass offense. I could just as easily say that The defense wouldn't win a super bowl without a Ben-led offense, cause, well, it's true, or so says I. They go hand in hand.

He's here to stir things up, he's a troll.

Northern_Blitz
01-24-2011, 10:56 PM
.........Crap!! I am sick of hearing how Ben has won two Super Bowls because he has played on a team that has had great defenses. Are you kidding me? If it was that easy then Jay Cutler would have one. Or Mark Sanchez would have one. Or Joe Flacco would have one. Or Phillip Rivers who played with the number one ranked defense this year would have one. Or Donovan McNabb when he played in Philadelphia. Or Fran Tarkenton when he played with the Purple People Eaters. Or Jim Kelly when he played with Buffalo.

It's not that easy. You still need a big time quarterback who makes big time plays when the stage is it's brightest.

Do people forget when the Steelers for many years had the number one ranked defense and often the number one rushing team at the same time and had Kordell Stewart, Neil O'Donnell, and Tommy Maddox as their quarterback?

It just isnt that easy. And thank God the Steelers have Ben Roethlisberger.

He is the sole reason why the Steelers are the elite franchise in the NFL. Had he not come to Pittsburgh they would be stuck on 4 Super Bowl trophies. Now they are on the verge of their 7th.


Ask them about Brady's Defences that he won super bowls with.

Steelgal
01-24-2011, 11:06 PM
He's here to stir things up, he's a troll.

That's why I have him on my ignore list.

D Rock
01-24-2011, 11:07 PM
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news;_ylt=A ... ions012411 (http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news;_ylt=An0e.PPdwi1BY9NIXaUjqQVDubYF?slug=jc-superbowlquestions012411)

Jason Cole writes...


Roethlisberger continues to cover the deficiencies of his line by getting away from pressure, so you have a quarterback who does a lot more than the stats reflect. He’s unorthodox, but he’s also 10-2 in the playoffs, something the likes of Neil O’Donnell, Kordell Stewart and Tommy Maddox couldn’t do with the same type of defense before Roethlisberger got there.


Some people in the media get it.

proudpittsburgher
01-24-2011, 11:09 PM
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news;_ylt=An0e.PPdwi1BY9NIXaUjqQVDubYF?slug=jc-superbowlquestions012411

Jason Cole writes...


Roethlisberger continues to cover the deficiencies of his line by getting away from pressure, so you have a quarterback who does a lot more than the stats reflect. He’s unorthodox, but he’s also 10-2 in the playoffs, something the likes of Neil O’Donnell, Kordell Stewart and Tommy Maddox couldn’t do with the same type of defense before Roethlisberger got there.


Some people in the media get it.

Sad part is, they all did this with an average or above average offensive line. Ben hasn't had that since 2005.

Chadman
01-24-2011, 11:28 PM
While we are busy giving Ben his due, the reverse argument is that by saying we only win these SB's WITH Ben is not giving this incredibly consistant, dominant Defense it's own due.

The fact is, no 1 player wins or loses a season. It's all about the whole team coming together & performing at a Championship level.

Something the Steelers have done, consistantly, for a number of years.

Yes, you do need the individual players that can create 'that play' here & there to win you tight games- and players like Ben, Hines Ward, James Harrison & Troy Polamalu are those types of players.

But individually, none of them 'won' SB's for this franchise- they did it as a collective- a unique, dominant group that has moulded together to form a team that knows how to win games when they need to be won.

That said, Ben doesn't get the credit he deserves as QB of this franchise.

Crash
01-24-2011, 11:30 PM
Again, screw flip flopping Jason Cole. He last season was just as guilty. When I reminded him of our conversation he claims to not have remembered what he said.

proudpittsburgher
01-24-2011, 11:31 PM
While we are busy giving Ben his due, the reverse argument is that by saying we only win these SB's WITH Ben is not giving this incredibly consistant, dominant Defense it's own due.

The fact is, no 1 player wins or loses a season. It's all about the whole team coming together & performing at a Championship level.

Something the Steelers have done, consistantly, for a number of years.

Yes, you do need the individual players that can create 'that play' here & there to win you tight games- and players like Ben, Hines Ward, James Harrison & Troy Polamalu are those types of players.

But individually, none of them 'won' SB's for this franchise- they did it as a collective- a unique, dominant group that has moulded together to form a team that knows how to win games when they need to be won.

That said, Ben doesn't get the credit he deserves as QB of this franchise.


Agree totally, that's why I said the two go hand in hand.

Crash
01-24-2011, 11:34 PM
While we are busy giving Ben his due, the reverse argument is that by saying we only win these SB's WITH Ben is not giving this incredibly consistant, dominant Defense it's own due.

1. 1983-2003. How many of those teams, had good defense, and good rushing games, but bad QB play?

2. The ONLY year, in his first 10 years as a coach that Bill Cowher had a top 10 passing team? He won the AFC.

This is a QB driven league. Always has been.

Chadman
01-24-2011, 11:35 PM
Again, screw flip flopping Jason Cole. He last season was just as guilty. When I reminded him of our conversation he claims to not have remembered what he said.

You mean, someone doesn't remember disagreeing with you???

Hard to believe!!!


:D

papillon
01-24-2011, 11:47 PM
Ben certainly deserves credity but he isn't winning any titles without this defense.


i say this in all seriousness and am not trying to start a war with this. . . do you just say this sh&* to try and start an argument with crash?

I believe irongut is nothing but a troll

Congrats for confirming you're an idiot.

To PPB, I say it because it is true. This team is and likely always will be a defensive team. Every SB since 2004 we have had a top 5 defense. We haven't had any top 5 offenses in that span. Sure Ben makes plays but the team doesn't win crap without the defense.


How can you say somethign that can't be proven, since its your speculation, is true? And if you don't think that the two go hand in hand (Ben and the defense), then you haven't been watching the games. Ben has pulled plenty of games out that the defense let go, and the defense has held on to leads that the offense tried givign away. Or a Ben led offense giving us a lead puts the defense in a position to put more pressure against a must-pass offense. I could just as easily say that The defense wouldn't win a super bowl without a Ben-led offense, cause, well, it's true, or so says I. They go hand in hand.

One of the games that Ben pulled out at the end of the game that the defense tried to let slip away was the Cardinal Super Bowl. The greatest defense of this era gave up a boatload of points in the second half and had handed the game to the Cardinals until Ben took the field.

I think you under estimate how good Ben is at winning football games. The manner in which he wins the games is irrelevant, to me anyhow. He isn't the best quarterback in the league (maybe not even top 5) but he is darn good. He is, however, the best football player playing the quarterback position.

Pappy

Crash
01-24-2011, 11:47 PM
His words are in the quote box, mine are out, this is several emails.


While Indianapolis Colts quarterback Peyton Manning has thrown eight touchdown passes to current running backs Joseph Addai(notes) and former Colt Dominic Rhodes during the past two seasons, Roethlisberger only has four to his three tailbacks (Mendenhall, Mewelde Moore(notes) and Willie Parking) in the same period. Ultimately, Roethlisberger would be wise to make more use of his running backs, who have combined to catch only 81 passes since the beginning of 2008 (the Colts trio has 115).

Never mind the fact that Parker has missed seven of the last 26 regular season games.

Or the fact that Mendenhall has missed 13 of the last 26 regular season games as well.

Or the fact that as I type this Manning has thrown 943 passes in his last 26 regular season games to Ben's 813.

Now Ben gets bashed for not throwing TD's to his backs even though the top 2 spent quite a bit of time in street clothes.


Yes, I'm aware of that, that's why I combined ALL the backs for proper comparison

Well Rhodes is not on the Colts anymore, and Addai is the only one who has a RB TD for Manning this year where as Mendenhall (Who also got very little work the first three games so somehow thats Ben's fault), Moore (Who has also dropped one), and Parker (Who dropped one in the AFC title game last season btw) all have RB TDs for Ben this season.

So who is doing a better job NOW? I'd say Ben is, no?

Regular season since 2004? Manning has 19 to RBs, Ben has 12. Now consider the difference in number of pass attempts? Who does a better job of getting RBs involved? Post season since 2004? Manning has two, Ben has one. It's not as lopsided as you think when you consider how much Peyton throws the football.

You media guys want to compare Peyton and Ben? Compare their Super Bowl runs. One can only imagine what National Media like you would say if Ben had 3 TD passes (add 1 rushing) and 7 picks during a post season when his team won a Super Bowl like Manning's did.

But Ben had 7 TD passes (add 2 rushing) and 3 picks in 2005 and it's like it doesn't even exist. Ben was somehow "carried" by his team where as Manning "led" the Colts to the Super Bowl. All you guys talk about is Ben in Super Bowl XL, and ignore his games (all on the road) in the AFC playoffs. If that were Peyton Manning? You wouldn't be.

Manning I believe is also 7-8 in the playoffs, Ben is 8-2. Peyton has advanced in 3 of 9 career playoffs, Ben has advanced in 3 of 4. That's right Jason, they've advanced the same number of times even though the great Peyton has been in the league twice as long as Ben has. All Peyton has really proven in 11 years is that he's great in the regular season but not in the playoffs. Ben has proven he wins in BOTH instances.

And before you try and compare the teams they were drafted by? BOTH Peyton and Ben were drafted by teams who missed the playoffs 4 of the previous 6 seasons before their arrival, and both teams did make the playoffs in 2 of the previous 3 years prior to their arrivals as well, so thats a wash.

Throwing to running backs is the least of the Steelers problems on offense. One would have to watch them on a full time basis to figure that out.


My point is that Roethlisberger needs to throw to his backs more IN ORDER TO SURVIVE. He's getting hit too much right now. Further, in the Cincy game, he missed at least four throws to RBs that would have either eliminated sacks or incompletes.

And how many of those would be first downs? Did you see the defenders there? I did.

Two sacks were an empty backfield, where was the RB? Another sack occurred when the LB was shadowing Mendenhall.

You guys have no idea why he gets hit, you would also know if you watched this team enough that A LOT of the times he's getting hit (Like the last two sacks in regulation at KC) when he doesn't have a back as an option to throw because he's blocking.

Terrific, Peyton throws to his running backs. You let me know when he consistently wins in the playoffs.


Cole's response to above:

Ok, should we compare him to Tom Brady then?

Be my guest.

Since Ben entered the league, he has two rings, and Brady has one. They've played in the same number of Super Bowls since Ben entered the league. After 5 years, Brady won 9 playoff games, and Ben won 8.

Didn't know that did ya?


As much as like Ben, he got carried on the first one. U know it

If you think Ben was carried in his 2005 1st title which you stated, you must say the same of Brady and Peyton, their post season runs of their first titles prove it.

Here are Ben Roethlisberger's 2005 numbers in 16 games:

226 of 361 (62% ) for 3188 yards (8.3 YPA) for 24 TDS 12 INTS, 99.3 QB rating 5 rush tds = 29 total TDs

Here are Tom Brady's 2001 numbers in 18 games:

324 of 510 (63%) for 3415 yards (6.9 YPA) for 19 TDS 13 INTS, 84.7 QB rating 1 rush td = 20 total TDs

Ben is almost a yard and a half better in YPA, 15 points better in QB rating, and has 9 more total TDs despite playing in two less games. I did Brady a favor by comparing their whole seasons, if I did it just by post season it wouldn't even be close.

I think we both know which column is better, and who defies a QB who was "carried" by his team and who doesn't.

Chadman
01-24-2011, 11:55 PM
While we are busy giving Ben his due, the reverse argument is that by saying we only win these SB's WITH Ben is not giving this incredibly consistant, dominant Defense it's own due.

1. 1983-2003. How many of those teams, had good defense, and good rushing games, but bad QB play?

2. The ONLY year, in his first 10 years as a coach that Bill Cowher had a top 10 passing team? He won the AFC.

This is a QB driven league. Always has been.

So, screw the D- load up on O then?

Chadman
01-24-2011, 11:57 PM
His words are in the quote box, mine are out, this is several emails.

[quote]While Indianapolis Colts quarterback Peyton Manning has thrown eight touchdown passes to current running backs Joseph Addai(notes) and former Colt Dominic Rhodes during the past two seasons, Roethlisberger only has four to his three tailbacks (Mendenhall, Mewelde Moore(notes) and Willie Parking) in the same period. Ultimately, Roethlisberger would be wise to make more use of his running backs, who have combined to catch only 81 passes since the beginning of 2008 (the Colts trio has 115).

Never mind the fact that Parker has missed seven of the last 26 regular season games.

Or the fact that Mendenhall has missed 13 of the last 26 regular season games as well.

Or the fact that as I type this Manning has thrown 943 passes in his last 26 regular season games to Ben's 813.

Now Ben gets bashed for not throwing TD's to his backs even though the top 2 spent quite a bit of time in street clothes.


Yes, I'm aware of that, that's why I combined ALL the backs for proper comparison

Well Rhodes is not on the Colts anymore, and Addai is the only one who has a RB TD for Manning this year where as Mendenhall (Who also got very little work the first three games so somehow thats Ben's fault), Moore (Who has also dropped one), and Parker (Who dropped one in the AFC title game last season btw) all have RB TDs for Ben this season.

So who is doing a better job NOW? I'd say Ben is, no?

Regular season since 2004? Manning has 19 to RBs, Ben has 12. Now consider the difference in number of pass attempts? Who does a better job of getting RBs involved? Post season since 2004? Manning has two, Ben has one. It's not as lopsided as you think when you consider how much Peyton throws the football.

You media guys want to compare Peyton and Ben? Compare their Super Bowl runs. One can only imagine what National Media like you would say if Ben had 3 TD passes (add 1 rushing) and 7 picks during a post season when his team won a Super Bowl like Manning's did.

But Ben had 7 TD passes (add 2 rushing) and 3 picks in 2005 and it's like it doesn't even exist. Ben was somehow "carried" by his team where as Manning "led" the Colts to the Super Bowl. All you guys talk about is Ben in Super Bowl XL, and ignore his games (all on the road) in the AFC playoffs. If that were Peyton Manning? You wouldn't be.

Manning I believe is also 7-8 in the playoffs, Ben is 8-2. Peyton has advanced in 3 of 9 career playoffs, Ben has advanced in 3 of 4. That's right Jason, they've advanced the same number of times even though the great Peyton has been in the league twice as long as Ben has. All Peyton has really proven in 11 years is that he's great in the regular season but not in the playoffs. Ben has proven he wins in BOTH instances.

And before you try and compare the teams they were drafted by? BOTH Peyton and Ben were drafted by teams who missed the playoffs 4 of the previous 6 seasons before their arrival, and both teams did make the playoffs in 2 of the previous 3 years prior to their arrivals as well, so thats a wash.

Throwing to running backs is the least of the Steelers problems on offense. One would have to watch them on a full time basis to figure that out.


My point is that Roethlisberger needs to throw to his backs more IN ORDER TO SURVIVE. He's getting hit too much right now. Further, in the Cincy game, he missed at least four throws to RBs that would have either eliminated sacks or incompletes.

And how many of those would be first downs? Did you see the defenders there? I did.

Two sacks were an empty backfield, where was the RB? Another sack occurred when the LB was shadowing Mendenhall.

You guys have no idea why he gets hit, you would also know if you watched this team enough that A LOT of the times he's getting hit (Like the last two sacks in regulation at KC) when he doesn't have a back as an option to throw because he's blocking.

Terrific, Peyton throws to his running backs. You let me know when he consistently wins in the playoffs.


Cole's response to above:

Ok, should we compare him to Tom Brady then?

Be my guest.

Since Ben entered the league, he has two rings, and Brady has one. They've played in the same number of Super Bowls since Ben entered the league. After 5 years, Brady won 9 playoff games, and Ben won 8.

Didn't know that did ya?


As much as like Ben, he got carried on the first one. U know it

If you think Ben was carried in his 2005 1st title which you stated, you must say the same of Brady and Peyton, their post season runs of their first titles prove it.

Here are Ben Roethlisberger's 2005 numbers in 16 games:

226 of 361 (62% ) for 3188 yards (8.3 YPA) for 24 TDS 12 INTS, 99.3 QB rating 5 rush tds = 29 total TDs

Here are Tom Brady's 2001 numbers in 18 games:

324 of 510 (63%) for 3415 yards (6.9 YPA) for 19 TDS 13 INTS, 84.7 QB rating 1 rush td = 20 total TDs

Ben is almost a yard and a half better in YPA, 15 points better in QB rating, and has 9 more total TDs despite playing in two less games. I did Brady a favor by comparing their whole seasons, if I did it just by post season it wouldn't even be close.

I think we both know which column is better, and who defies a QB who was "carried" by his team and who doesn't.[/quote:h3fkmza1]

Not trying to be funny Crash- but what are you trying to prove to him? He's not saying Ben sucks- in fact his argument about using the RB's is quite valid. Why take a person's opinion that doesn't agree with yours so personally?

Crash
01-25-2011, 12:01 AM
So, screw the D- load up on O then?

The Steelers balance it out pretty good. They don't do what the Colts do and just load up every #1 for Peyton. They give Peyton a ton of weapons then his apologists cry when his defense has an off year.

Tomlin's best draft may be his first, when he stacked up drafting Timmons AND Woodley to the LB corps.

Chadman
01-25-2011, 12:05 AM
So, screw the D- load up on O then?

The Steelers balance it out pretty good. They don't do what the Colts do and just load up every #1 for Peyton. They give Peyton a ton of weapons then his apologists cry when his defense has an off year.

Tomlin's best draft may be his first, when he stacked up drafting Timmons AND Woodley to the LB corps.

Agreed- 2 great playmakers in 2 rounds. Tomlin & Colbert rarely seem to miss too far from the mark with draft selections.

So, are you saying that 'balance' added to a couple of 'playmakers' transforms a team from OK to Championship calibre?

Crash
01-25-2011, 12:07 AM
Not trying to be funny Crash- but what are you trying to prove to him? He's not saying Ben sucks- in fact his argument about using the RB's is quite valid. Why take a person's opinion that doesn't agree with yours so personally?

How is it valid when the numbers weren't that different considering Ben has a lot of empty backfields (which I showed) and a lot where the runner is blocking?

Wait, it gets better, mere months later:

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=j ... &type=lgns (http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=jc-directsnap020910&prov=yhoo&type=lgns)

Sounds familiar, no?

My problem with Cole is he now calls out media who won't lump Ben with the other two, when he was guilty of the same thing.

Dee Dub
01-25-2011, 12:07 AM
While we are busy giving Ben his due, the reverse argument is that by saying we only win these SB's WITH Ben is not giving this incredibly consistant, dominant Defense it's own due.

The fact is, no 1 player wins or loses a season. It's all about the whole team coming together & performing at a Championship level.

Something the Steelers have done, consistantly, for a number of years.

Yes, you do need the individual players that can create 'that play' here & there to win you tight games- and players like Ben, Hines Ward, James Harrison & Troy Polamalu are those types of players.

But individually, none of them 'won' SB's for this franchise- they did it as a collective- a unique, dominant group that has moulded together to form a team that knows how to win games when they need to be won.

That said, Ben doesn't get the credit he deserves as QB of this franchise.


Agree totally, that's why I said the two go hand in hand.

Sorry guys, I dont agree with this. This defense is as good but not better than the one that had Woodson, Lake, Perry, Lloyd, Greene, Kirkland, Brown (or Holmes), Steed, etc. And what exactly did they when?

And I hope you dont get out of that I dont believe this current Steelers defense inst a great one cause it is.

Just ask yourself this, if for some reason Ben couldnt play in this Super Bowl does this defense win it for the Steelers if Byron Leftwich or Charlie Batch is under center?

SteelTorch
01-25-2011, 12:08 AM
Ben was actually get a lot of love today on ESPN from various guys. A lot are waking up to the fact that stats don't matter, winning games does and Ben makes plays to win games.

Stats DO matter. :stirpot

Crash
01-25-2011, 12:15 AM
So, screw the D- load up on O then?

The Steelers balance it out pretty good. They don't do what the Colts do and just load up every #1 for Peyton. They give Peyton a ton of weapons then his apologists cry when his defense has an off year.

Tomlin's best draft may be his first, when he stacked up drafting Timmons AND Woodley to the LB corps.

Agreed- 2 great playmakers in 2 rounds. Tomlin & Colbert rarely seem to miss too far from the mark with draft selections.

So, are you saying that 'balance' added to a couple of 'playmakers' transforms a team from OK to Championship calibre?

If you draft smart? Yes.

Timmons, Woodley, Mendenhall, Sweed.

First 2 picks in 2007 and 2008.

Three out of four are solid playmakers for this team.

Now imagine this team without 2 of the first 3?

Since Colbert arrived our day one picks (especually #1's) have been mostly drafting of players who played a while for us.

Now imagine if he was 50/50?

Chadman
01-25-2011, 12:16 AM
While we are busy giving Ben his due, the reverse argument is that by saying we only win these SB's WITH Ben is not giving this incredibly consistant, dominant Defense it's own due.

The fact is, no 1 player wins or loses a season. It's all about the whole team coming together & performing at a Championship level.

Something the Steelers have done, consistantly, for a number of years.

Yes, you do need the individual players that can create 'that play' here & there to win you tight games- and players like Ben, Hines Ward, James Harrison & Troy Polamalu are those types of players.

But individually, none of them 'won' SB's for this franchise- they did it as a collective- a unique, dominant group that has moulded together to form a team that knows how to win games when they need to be won.

That said, Ben doesn't get the credit he deserves as QB of this franchise.


Agree totally, that's why I said the two go hand in hand.

Sorry guys, I dont agree with this. This defense is as good but not better than the one that had Woodson, Lake, Perry, Lloyd, Greene, Kirkland, Brown (or Holmes), Steed, etc. And what exactly did they when?

And I hope you dont get out of that I dont believe this current Steelers defense inst a great one cause it is.

Just ask yourself this, if for some reason Ben couldnt play in this Super Bowl does this defense win it for the Steelers if Byron Leftwich or Charlie Batch is under center?

Byron Leftwich or Charlie Batch? No, probably not. But you're being 'specific'. It's not like you couldn't insert a McNabb or even a Hasselback in their 'prime' and not contend for a SB with this Defense. Crash touched on it- balance is the key. Coupled with 2-3 'playmakers' that can create 'that play' when it's necessary. Ben is a great QB. But he's not 'the reason' Pittsburgh wins SB's. He's part of the reason.

Crash
01-25-2011, 12:19 AM
Ben is a great QB. But he's not 'the reason' Pittsburgh wins SB's. He's part of the reason.

He's no doubt the MAIN reason. Just look at NFL history. How many of the 44 winning QB's are #1 picks?

Chadman
01-25-2011, 12:21 AM
So, screw the D- load up on O then?

The Steelers balance it out pretty good. They don't do what the Colts do and just load up every #1 for Peyton. They give Peyton a ton of weapons then his apologists cry when his defense has an off year.

Tomlin's best draft may be his first, when he stacked up drafting Timmons AND Woodley to the LB corps.

Agreed- 2 great playmakers in 2 rounds. Tomlin & Colbert rarely seem to miss too far from the mark with draft selections.

So, are you saying that 'balance' added to a couple of 'playmakers' transforms a team from OK to Championship calibre?

If you draft smart? Yes.

Timmons, Woodley, Mendenhall, Sweed.

First 2 picks in 2007 and 2008.

Three out of four are solid playmakers for this team.

Now imagine this team without 2 of the first 3?

Since Colbert arrived our day one picks (especually #1's) have been mostly drafting of players who played a while for us.

Now imagine if he was 50/50?

Won't get an argument there- Colbert/Tomlin have done a great job adding talent to the roster. Perhaps, just maybe, by giving the Defense or Ben the 'kudos' for winning SB's, it's more the efforts of these guys that should be praised- putting together a group of players, with the same resources every other team gets to use, but doing it that much better than their rivals. This whole franchise is really humming along these last few seasons.

Chadman
01-25-2011, 12:23 AM
Ben is a great QB. But he's not 'the reason' Pittsburgh wins SB's. He's part of the reason.

He's no doubt the MAIN reason. Just look at NFL history. How many of the 44 winning QB's are #1 picks?

No doubt- he touches the ball more than any player on the team. But is it concievable that any number of QB's could have been as successful given the same circumstances? Not a detraction from Ben, more a 'prop' to the guys that build this team.

Crash
01-25-2011, 12:42 AM
But is it concievable that any number of QB's could have been as successful given the same circumstances?

With his OL? With the constant change around him? I say no.

Ben has done nothing but produce minus 2006. And yet unlike Peyton, who has domes, and had the same 1-2 WR combo for 8 years straight years, is 10-2 in the playoffs compared to Peyton's 9-10.

Peyton this season finally had some adversity in his supporting cast.

What happened? He threw bad picks all year.

Ben lost Plax, he went to the Super Bowl.

Ben lost Faneca as a free agent, Simmmons, Marvel Smith, and Mendendall for most of 2008 injured, he won ring #2.

Ben lost Holmes via trade, he's back in the Super Bowl again.

Look at Rivers this year. No Vince for most of the year, Gates hurt, no LT.

He got his yards after they fell behind big in games. He also failed in crunch time.

Ben elevates players around him. That's one thing he never gets credit for.

How scary will Ben be when Wallace, Brown, and Sanders all mature TOGETHER and Ben finally has some stability around him at wideout?

flippy
01-25-2011, 12:53 AM
I think the trend is moving toward more folks respecting Ben finally.

I get as sick as all of you hearing the excuses for everyone else. Peyton, Brady, Brees can't do it without a running game.

How bout if they don't have a line. And their line gets hurt. And they have to wait years for Hines, Heath, and ARE to get open.

Ben wins with nothing. The pundits act like Brees, Brady, Manning have nothing. But that's not even close to true.

But I heard so many people today say, boy did Ben have a great game even though his stat line sucked. or Ben makes the plays he needs to even on his worst days to win.

Chadman
01-25-2011, 12:58 AM
But is it concievable that any number of QB's could have been as successful given the same circumstances?

With his OL? With the constant change around him? I say no.

Ben has done nothing but produce minus 2006. And yet unlike Peyton, who has domes, and had the same 1-2 WR combo for 8 years straight years, is 10-2 in the playoffs compared to Peyton's 9-10.

Peyton this season finally had some adversity in his supporting cast.

What happened? He threw bad picks all year.

Ben lost Plax, he went to the Super Bowl.

Ben lost Faneca as a free agent, Simmmons, Marvel Smith, and Mendendall for most of 2008 injured, he won ring #2.

Ben lost Holmes via trade, he's back in the Super Bowl again.

Look at Rivers this year. No Vince for most of the year, Gates hurt, no LT.

He got his yards after they fell behind big in games. He also failed in crunch time.

Ben elevates players around him. That's one thing he never gets credit for.

How scary will Ben be when Wallace, Brown, and Sanders all mature TOGETHER and Ben finally has some stability around him at wideout?

There is 1 guy I think could have been a success here if we'd had him in his prime- McNabb. Very rarely had the supporting cast around him that the likes of Brady & Manning have had, and yet was consistant & successful, to a point. Then, give him a decent WR (Owens)- and he has a great year.

You are right- Ben does elevate the players around him.

skyhawk
01-25-2011, 02:00 AM
Veteran Steeler's fans know it's Ben that was the missing link for many years.

And there was a stat during the game on Sunday that said that Ben is third ALL TIME in playoff scoring PPG. AHEAD of Brady AND Manning. I forget who was #1 (Bart Starr?) but Troy Aikman and his offensive weapons was #2 and Ben #3.

I am tired of the Ben detractors. They just don't realize what a great athlete he really is.

NJ-STEELER
01-25-2011, 02:04 AM
after sunday's game i'll get to remind some local NY fans of what they were saying after XL. saying Ben had it easy because of the type of team around him.

sanchez couldn't do it with IMO a better team around surrounding him

sentinel33
01-25-2011, 03:52 AM
Ben is clutch. the dude has liquid nitrogen flowin through his veins. hes a gamer of the highest order and i dont care one bit what people say about him and ill betcha he doesnt either. if you cant recognize how frickin good ben is by now, you never will. and yeah. hes the catalyst for the success of this team. i dont get why thats so hard to deal with.
the defense is still great. but bens the man and that is it.

AngryAsian
01-25-2011, 04:33 AM
I hear all the valid points most of you are making, but does it really matter. Without Ben executing within the parameters of THIS system, we would not be successful. In years past and the same can be said for this season, the defensive splash plays helped elevate us to a high enough seed that made our playoff runs successful against the teams that we played. These factors have the collective impact that has yielded success and if you had one without the other, we would be a mirror image of the Ravens or the Jets... successful enough to put on tap shoes, but not enough to dance.

Let the clueless media keep doubting our franchise QB, let them keep taking stabs at our aging defense, and despite our experience and former success, let them keep labeling us as underdogs... we'll just keep believing in our coach, in our game plan, in our QB and continue to collect the hardware. We have the "STANDARD" that no one can take away, and as some on this board have so eloquently put it... "we play better with our backs against the wall."

Sonny
01-25-2011, 04:37 AM
Brady won 3 Super Bowls because of his defense. Manning backed into a ring because his defense decided to show up. 3 TDs and 7 INTS? Has any QB had those numbers in a SB "run"?

Elway won two Super Bowls because of his defense and TD running the ball.

Aikman, should I get started on him?

Montana? No supporting cast there, huh?

I'm sick and tired of hearing reasons why Ben has won Super Bowls.

Our D fell apart in the 2nd half(which is troubling, btw) against the Cards, and Ben only responds with one of the top 2 or 3 drives in SB history.

Peyton is put in the EXACT same situation last year, and what does he do? He throws a pick 6.

Bottom line is none of these guys win without their defense/running game, but none of these teams win without their QB, either. Jordan doesn't win anything without Pippen, and you damn sure know Pip doesn't win anything without Jordan. Stupid argument.

Irongut
01-25-2011, 12:50 PM
Veteran Steeler's fans know it's Ben that was the missing link for many years.

Veteran Steeler fans know it's a better QB that was the missing link for many years. Ben isn't the only QB that would/could have had success with this team. Any of the top 10-15 QB's would have been capable. Ben makes some terrific plays but he also makes many negative plays and it's not inconceivable that our offense would be better with a more stable smart playing QB who consistently runs the offense the way it is designed, not known for making plays when the play breaks down, many of them ending negatively. You seem to only remember the ones he makes.

Irongut
01-25-2011, 12:52 PM
Ben is a great QB. But he's not 'the reason' Pittsburgh wins SB's. He's part of the reason.

He's no doubt the MAIN reason. Just look at NFL history. How many of the 44 winning QB's are #1 picks?

No doubt- he touches the ball more than any player on the team. But is it concievable that any number of QB's could have been as successful given the same circumstances? Not a detraction from Ben, more a 'prop' to the guys that build this team.
I completely agree. Ben deserves props but to say he is the only one who could win here is ridiculous imo. And the OL excuse is just that, an excuse. Ben's slow thinking and not running plays as designed are as much to blame for his sacks and hits, if not moreso, than the OL. When he plays with pace, the line looks fine. When he pump fakes 3 times, hesitates, scrambles, it's blamed on the line.

proudpittsburgher
01-25-2011, 01:00 PM
I completely agree. Ben deserves props but to say he is the only one who could win here is ridiculous imo. And the OL excuse is just that, an excuse.

So, you are saying if we make that statement, it is ridiculous, but making statements like, oh I don't know, "Without that defense, no way does Ben win a Super Bowl" is peachy keen?

And since when does bad offensive line play not play a part in taking sacks?

No one is saying that another QB couldn't win here, but to address the actual point of the thread, Ben leading the Steelers to two super bowls, and maybe a third, is not solely because of his defense.

Irongut
01-25-2011, 01:15 PM
I completely agree. Ben deserves props but to say he is the only one who could win here is ridiculous imo. And the OL excuse is just that, an excuse.

So, you are saying if we make that statement, it is ridiculous, but making statements like, oh I don't know, "Without that defense, no way does Ben win a Super Bowl" is peachy keen?

And since when does bad offensive line play not play a part in taking sacks?

No one is saying that another QB couldn't win here, but to address the actual point of the thread, Ben leading the Steelers to two super bowls, and maybe a third, is not solely because of his defense.
Nothing is "solely" done but Ben is a lot easier replaced than the defense. There are 10-15 QB's imo that could win here. There are not 10-15 defenses that could win a SB with Ben imo.

I never said bad offensive line play doesn't play a part in sacks. I said the OL is an excuse. Ben takes sacks when the OL does their job. Ben would take sacks/hits regardless of the line. He's not a "run the play as designed, make quick read, throw on plant step, timing QB?

Wolfhound45
01-25-2011, 01:42 PM
He's here to stir things up, he's a troll.

That's why I have him on my ignore list.

And that is why he is going on my list now. What a waste of bandwidth.

feltdizz
01-25-2011, 01:57 PM
from TMQ on ESPN.com

The saying goes -- offense sells tickets and defense wins championships. That has been the theme of the current playoffs. Of the top 10 offensive teams in the NFL this season, only one, Green Bay, reached the title round. But all of the final four teams were in the top 10 for defense. Of the top 10 rushing-offense teams this season, only one, Jersey/B, reached the title round. But of the top rushing defenses, Nos. 1, 2 and 3 -- the Steelers, Bears and Jets, respectively -- made the final four.

NW Steeler
01-25-2011, 02:29 PM
We can argue Ben's talent and his impact on this team all we want. But I think we can all agree that we are damn glad we have him and we should enjoy the ride while he is here. All I know is that we had to wait 25 years to win a SB, and we had #1 defenses and #1 running games. Ben was the missing link. Could another "Top 10" QB do the same things Ben has done with this team? Who gives a sh!t? We have the guy that is perfectly built for this team, IMO.

ghettoscott
01-25-2011, 02:39 PM
He's here to stir things up, he's a troll.

That's why I have him on my ignore list.

And that is why he is going on my list now. What a waste of bandwidth.

I didnt even know we had "ignore" capabilities! sweet, learn something new everyday....

Crash
01-25-2011, 02:40 PM
http://a345.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/124/l_68dc257a1545e99b47c11195fe3d7f70.gif

That's cool as sh*t. :)

RuthlessBurgher
01-25-2011, 02:44 PM
Without Ben, we don't make it to SBXL (the 3 games he played in Cincy, Indy, and Denver to get us to Detroit were incredible, and he needed to close out the season with 4 straight against the Bears, Vikes, Browns, and Lions to close the season even to sneak into the playoffs as a 6th seed in the first place).

Without Ben, we don't win SBXLIII. No one else pilots that drive to end the game. As was mentioned previously in this thread, Peyton choked in the same situation in last year's Super Bowl with a pick 6. Brady's game winning Super Bowl drives only required that he get into Adam Vinatieri's FG range...he's never needed to punch one into the end zone to win a title.

Sure, the defense had a ton to do with both of those title runs as well, but we really don't need to defend our defense, since everyone (opposing players, opposing coaches, opposing fans, expert analysts, etc. all readily acknowledge that our defense is great, so there is no debate to be had). Ben, on the other hand, doesn't seem to get nearly as much credit (although many opposing players have been praising Ben's prowess and dissing the pretty boys of late, which is an interesting turn of events for sure).

RuthlessBurgher
01-25-2011, 02:45 PM
He's here to stir things up, he's a troll.

That's why I have him on my ignore list.

And that is why he is going on my list now. What a waste of bandwidth.

I didnt even know we had "ignore" capabilities! sweet, learn something new everyday....

Yeah, they call it "foe" here, but it functions pretty much the same.

BradshawsHairdresser
01-25-2011, 03:26 PM
Without Ben, we don't make it to SBXL (the 3 games he played in Cincy, Indy, and Denver to get us to Detroit were incredible, and he needed to close out the season with 4 straight against the Bears, Vikes, Browns, and Lions to close the season even to sneak into the playoffs as a 6th seed in the first place).

Without Ben, we don't win SBXLIII. No one else pilots that drive to end the game. As was mentioned previously in this thread, Peyton choked in the same situation in last year's Super Bowl with a pick 6. Brady's game winning Super Bowl drives only required that he get into Adam Vinatieri's FG range...he's never needed to punch one into the end zone to win a title.

Sure, the defense had a ton to do with both of those title runs as well, but we really don't need to defend our defense, since everyone (opposing players, opposing coaches, opposing fans, expert analysts, etc. all readily acknowledge that our defense is great, so there is no debate to be had). Ben, on the other hand, doesn't seem to get nearly as much credit (although many opposing players have been praising Ben's prowess and dissing the pretty boys of late, which is an interesting turn of events for sure).
$$$$$$$$$$

feltdizz
01-25-2011, 03:55 PM
We can argue Ben's talent and his impact on this team all we want. But I think we can all agree that we are damn glad we have him and we should enjoy the ride while he is here. All I know is that we had to wait 25 years to win a SB, and we had #1 defenses and #1 running games. Ben was the missing link. Could another "Top 10" QB do the same things Ben has done with this team? Who gives a sh!t? We have the guy that is perfectly built for this team, IMO.

$$$$$

ikestops85
01-25-2011, 04:36 PM
Ben's style doesn't fit the analysts style on how a QB plays. They can't put him into a specific box and tie a bow around it. It is often an ugly game he plays. He gets hit time and time again. Sometimes he holds onto the ball too long and takes an unnecessary sack. Other times he holds onto the ball too long and throws for a magical big play. He can look God awful one minute and God-like the next.

What can you say about the guy except that he is CLUTCH!!! When a job really and truly needs to be done he is the best in the business at accomplishing it. I, like most here, wouldn't want any other QB for my team.

:tt2 :tt2 :tt2 :tt2 :tt2 :tt2 :tt2 :tt2

steeler_fan_in_t.o.
01-25-2011, 06:38 PM
Veteran Steeler fans know it's a better QB that was the missing link for many years. Ben isn't the only QB that would/could have had success with this team. Any of the top 10-15 QB's would have been capable. Ben makes some terrific plays but he also makes many negative plays and it's not inconceivable that our offense would be better with a more stable smart playing QB who consistently runs the offense the way it is designed, not known for making plays when the play breaks down, many of them ending negatively. You seem to only remember the ones he makes.

10-15 who would have two rings and playing for a third? Wow, I'd love to see that list.

But let us include all accomplishments - including making it to the AFCCG as a rook, SB in year two, year five, going for #3 in year seven.

Sonny
01-26-2011, 02:53 AM
Simple question. Does Peyton lead that drive in SB 43 and make that pass to Holmes?

RuthlessBurgher
01-26-2011, 02:41 PM
Simple question. Does Peyton lead that drive in SB 43 and make that pass to Holmes?

No...he was in that situation in last year's Super Bowl vs. the Saints, and he threw a pick 6 instead of leading his team on a game winning TD drive.

Someone else also mentioned in another thread that in a similar 3rd down situation against the Jets in these playoffs, in perfect dome conditions, Peyton rolled out and threw a poor pass to rookie WR Blair White that went imcomplete (and the rookie WR was blamed), while Ben, in miserably cold conditions, rolled out and threw a money pass to rookie WR Antonio Brown to clinch the game.

Crash
01-26-2011, 03:46 PM
Simple question. Does Peyton lead that drive in SB 43 and make that pass to Holmes?

Nope. He had a chance last season. Failed.

He also had a top defense in 2005 and 2007, didn't win a playoff game.

They try to downplay Ben winning, but Peyton can't win when he's put in the same situation.

papillon
01-26-2011, 04:02 PM
Football is the ultimate team game and because of that you can never say that this one player or that one player was the exclusive reason a team wins the super bowl. That being said, You would have to reach back into history to find a quarterback that could have the winning percentage that Ben does with this team, the great defense included.

I don't believe there's quarterback in the game today other than Ben that has Ben's winning percentage with the teams that Ben has been a part of and here''s my reason. There are quarterbacks that get it done when the chips are down, there are quarterbacks that can scramble and make plays and there are quarterbacks that can get it done in the pocket, but there aren't any quarterbacks that can do all three. Ben has in the past and continues to make huge plays on the run, in the pocket and almost always when the Steelers need a play.

The only quarterbacks that I can think of that could possibly have the winning percentage that Ben has with the teams Ben has played with are John Elway, Joe Montana and Steve Young. I don't believe a strict pocket passer could do it (too much pressure due to the offensive line issues), a scrambler only couldn't do it (needs to be able to hang in and make throw at some point) and I don't recall any quarterback that is as good as Ben when the chips are down.

He's a one of kind and I would urge any Steeler fan to begin enjoying the ride rather looking for Ben to change. A player like this may not come around in our life times again. It isn't always pretty, but it's always effective. That's good by me, even when I'm yelling, "throw it away, throw it away, great play Ben" :lol:

Pappy

Crash
01-26-2011, 04:27 PM
He's a one of kind and I would urge any Steeler fan to begin enjoying the ride rather looking for Ben to change. A player like this may not come around in our life times again. It isn't always pretty, but it's always effective. That's good by me, even when I'm yelling, "throw it away, throw it away, great play Ben"

Pappy

Just like this guy:

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRs7LyLZSHZjjdBta9rmUL3baAIU7kUf TukBGrP-y5wBSlsWAlRkQ&t=1

They are so alike on the field it's scary.

I don't want Ben to change the way he plays (He can improve in some areas mind you) the game. His way works, his way wins championships.

If three Super Bowl berth's (At least two rings) isn't enough to satisfy the morons who insist he change? Then they can go root for another team.

Ben secured his spot in Canton Sunday night. If that's not good enough? Nothing ever will be.

One more title with Ben, and his team will be a dynasty.

WTF is so wrong about that?

feltdizz
01-26-2011, 04:34 PM
He's a one of kind and I would urge any Steeler fan to begin enjoying the ride rather looking for Ben to change. A player like this may not come around in our life times again. It isn't always pretty, but it's always effective. That's good by me, even when I'm yelling, "throw it away, throw it away, great play Ben"

Pappy

Just like this guy:

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRs7LyLZSHZjjdBta9rmUL3baAIU7kUf TukBGrP-y5wBSlsWAlRkQ&t=1

They are so alike on the field it's scary.

I don't want Ben to change the way he plays (He can improve in some areas mind you) the game. His way works, his way wins championships.

If three Super Bowl berth's (At least two rings) isn't enough to satisfy the morons who insist he change? Then they can go root for another team.

Ben secured his spot in Canton Sunday night. If that's not good enough? Nothing ever will be.

One more title with Ben, and his team will be a dynasty.

WTF is so wrong about that?

Ben secured his spot in Canton after the Holmes pass in SB43...but as long as he is the QB of my team I will question his actions on and off the field when they hurt the teams chances of winning.

WTF is so wrong about that? :wink:

papillon
01-26-2011, 04:36 PM
One more title with Ben, and his team will be a dynasty. WTF is so wrong about that?

Not a d@mn thing. I can honestly say that I have never had as much confidence in Steeler teams winning big games as I have over the past 5 years. I am actually shocked when they lose a must win game (which has been rare over the past 5 seasons).

The regular season Jets game absolutely blew me away; I couldn't believe that they didn't make the plays to win the game at the end. They had chances, but the play wasn't made, I couldn't believe it, that's how commonplace it is for this team to win games late or when given the opportunity.

If you can't enjoy this version of the Steelers (the last 5-7 years) then you either don't have a pulse or just someone that wants to b1tch and moan to hear yourself talk.

Enjoy it boys and girls, it won't last forever.

Pappy

Crash
01-26-2011, 06:01 PM
Ben secured his spot in Canton after the Holmes pass in SB43...but as long as he is the QB of my team I will question his actions on and off the field when they hurt the teams chances of winning.

You should get your head out of your as$ and question Goodell's motives for trying to f*ck up our season while Brandon Underwood plays on while his case remains open.

Bashing Ben for a bad play is fine. But the way some fans treat his on field play you'd think he plays like Cliff Stoudt.

This is who Ben is. This is how he's going to play. He's not going to change much. Bradshaw didn't either. Like Ben, all Terry did was win titles.

People need to accept that, or go root for Peyton or Brady.

feltdizz
01-26-2011, 06:25 PM
Ben secured his spot in Canton after the Holmes pass in SB43...but as long as he is the QB of my team I will question his actions on and off the field when they hurt the teams chances of winning.

You should get your head out of your as$ and question Goodell's motives for trying to f*ck up our season while Brandon Underwood plays on while his case remains open.

Bashing Ben for a bad play is fine. But the way some fans treat his on field play you'd think he plays like Cliff Stoudt.

This is who Ben is. This is how he's going to play. He's not going to change much. Bradshaw didn't either. Like Ben, all Terry did was win titles.

People need to accept that, or go root for Peyton or Brady.

You need to accept that you can't demand how people feel about Ben. You stomp around here disrespecting everyone who isn't wearing the tin foil.

How can you be right about Goodell when you were wrong about us getting screwed and losing the Ravens playoff game? What about the Jets refs who were going to screw us? You swore up and down there was no way Goodell would let us get to a SB.

Stop trying to bully people in every discussion. Its a message board and people will agree or disagree. There is no need to cast people out because they aren't surfing the internet looking for past crimes and accusations against football players.

You sound like Goodell has made you miserable for life. Get over it.

Iron Shiek
01-26-2011, 06:33 PM
Well, I actually agree with Crash. :shock:

There's no consistency in the NFL. Not with legal matters, not with punishments for on or off the field occurrences, not with officiating. And it doesn't seem like this regime cares to do anything about it since they are the ones that created said inconsistencies. I don't know how people (owners, players, etc) can stand working under a regime that operates in this manner. I get they make a lot of money, but it just seems like something needs to happen.

Irongut
01-26-2011, 06:54 PM
Ben secured his spot in Canton after the Holmes pass in SB43...but as long as he is the QB of my team I will question his actions on and off the field when they hurt the teams chances of winning.

You should get your head out of your as$ and question Goodell's motives for trying to f*ck up our season while Brandon Underwood plays on while his case remains open.

Bashing Ben for a bad play is fine. But the way some fans treat his on field play you'd think he plays like Cliff Stoudt.

This is who Ben is. This is how he's going to play. He's not going to change much. Bradshaw didn't either. Like Ben, all Terry did was win titles.

People need to accept that, or go root for Peyton or Brady.

You constantly seem to forget, the suspension was from this being his 2nd violation of the conduct policy. They tried to help him get his life under control before he couldn't get out of the next issue and hurt himself and the team much greater. By all accounts, even Ben himself, it worked.

You should be happy, not miserable. In case you missed it, all of your conspiracy theories and nonsense have been debunked and we're in the Super Bowl. Put down the bottle of haterade and join in the fun.

Crash
01-26-2011, 07:12 PM
How can you be right about Goodell when you were wrong about us getting screwed and losing the Ravens playoff game?

Excuse me? I'm sorry, I must have missed where Terrell Suggs' two handed head slap on Ben was called when it cost us 7 points. Can you point that out for me?

We also had to use a challenge AFTER THE OPENING KICKOFF! What kind of incompetent pole smoking morons does Goodell employ when they can't even get an opening kickoff correct?


What about the Jets refs who were going to screw us?

You mean when we were up 7-0, had a clear 4th and 1 spot, but Ed Hochuli for some reason calls for a measurement himself when we are trying to make a play during hurry up and stops us?

You keep saying how wrong I am, and yet, the facts on the field keep proving me right.

The Steelers overcame their blatant attempts, again, to f*ck up our season.

steeler_fan_in_t.o.
01-27-2011, 10:31 AM
Well, I actually agree with Crash. :shock:

There's no consistency in the NFL. Not with legal matters, not with punishments for on or off the field occurrences, not with officiating. And it doesn't seem like this regime cares to do anything about it since they are the ones that created said inconsistencies. I don't know how people (owners, players, etc) can stand working under a regime that operates in this manner. I get they make a lot of money, but it just seems like something needs to happen.

I disagree Shiek, the league has been very consistent this year.

The louder the reaction from the media, the greater the penalty.

Ben was not suspended because of what he may have done, he was suspended because the situation blew up so big in the media.

Never were fines and suspensions on hits such an enormous issue until week 6. There happened to be 4 concussions that week and it became the number one story of the week. Next thing you know there are huge fines, including the one to Robinson which was a clean and textbook as possible.

Carry a gun into the airport and what is the penalty? Depends on what page of the newspaper it lands. Get charged with sexual assault and what happens? Nothing if the media does not run with it.

See, Goodell has been very consistent this season with his actions, just not in a way that would make sense to a football fan. :lol:

proudpittsburgher
01-27-2011, 11:07 AM
JHC, is it possible for Steeler fans to love Ben and the way he plays, support him and still be disappointed in what he did off the field? I really don't care about the inconsistency with fines/suspensions of other players. It is what it is. I love our QB and will continue to do so, but I'll be damned if I didn't want to give him a Leroy Jethro Gibbs slap in the back of the head after this second allegation, because while I don't think he raped her, I do believe he has to be smarter. Why does it have to be either/or?

proudpittsburgher
01-27-2011, 11:11 AM
. . . and on this topic, I was starting to steam over the discussion on M&M today about Ben's place in history, especially if/when the Steelers win next Sunday. They won;t let the first Super Bowl go, and more importantly, they won't include his performance in the playoffs leading up to that game. Hell, they won't even acknolege the fact that Ben should have been the MVP of the win over the Cards. Tom Brady, who most compare him to because of the super bowl titles, was the MVP of his first super bowl, while only passing for less than 150 yards and a TD. And the game winner was a FG, not a Tom Brady TD. Just frustrating.

MeetJoeGreene
01-27-2011, 11:16 AM
JHC, is it possible for Steeler fans to love Ben and the way he plays, support him and still be disappointed in what he did off the field? I really don't care about the inconsistency with fines/suspensions of other players. It is what it is. I love our QB and will continue to do so, but I'll be damned if I didn't want to give him a Leroy Jethro Gibbs slap in the back of the head after this second allegation, because while I don't think he raped her, I do believe he has to be smarter. Why does it have to be either/or?

Even if you do feel that way about Ben's past, at what point do you leave it in the past? The media seems bent on forgiving Vick and making a big deal about how he has "rehabilitated" his image, yet are saying that Ben's off the field issues are going to be a hot topic. For how long?

The Ben haters (media AND certain posters) will still be bringing this up 3 years from now after he is married, settled down with a kid, and have that other crackpot case thrown out.

proudpittsburgher
01-27-2011, 11:32 AM
JHC, is it possible for Steeler fans to love Ben and the way he plays, support him and still be disappointed in what he did off the field? I really don't care about the inconsistency with fines/suspensions of other players. It is what it is. I love our QB and will continue to do so, but I'll be damned if I didn't want to give him a Leroy Jethro Gibbs slap in the back of the head after this second allegation, because while I don't think he raped her, I do believe he has to be smarter. Why does it have to be either/or?

Even if you do feel that way about Ben's past, at what point do you leave it in the past? The media seems bent on forgiving Vick and making a big deal about how he has "rehabilitated" his image, yet are saying that Ben's off the field issues are going to be a hot topic. For how long?

The Ben haters (media AND certain posters) will still be bringing this up 3 years from now after he is married, settled down with a kid, and have that other crackpot case thrown out.


I HAVE left it in the past, but I am not going to criticise others who choose not to do so. Personally, while I don't completely seperate Ben on and off the field, there is enough of a difference between the two that I can move on with him.

I frequent a lot of national sports journalism boards, and honestly, the only thing that really gets under my skin is when they refer to him as a "rapist". To me, there are a handful of words that you better be careful of using and that is among the top, maybe even higher than murderer, which can be used in reference to Ray Lewis, and often is. I get a kick out of guys who go batsh&* crazy when people call out Jay Cutler for quitting and being indifferent on his team, but they have no problem calling Ben a rapist. If you use that word, you beter be darn sur eyou are right, because, as George Carlin once said" that is among the heavy-duty words.

Time is never going to wash this opinion of Ben away with many people. Me, I moved on the start of the regular season, while we were discussing whether Batch or Dixon was going to start while Ben was serving his time, fair or unfair, because bithing about it wasn;t going to change anything, so why bother.

steeler_fan_in_t.o.
01-27-2011, 11:43 AM
Even if you do feel that way about Ben's past, at what point do you leave it in the past?

I agree 100%. IMO Ben did not commit rape, but did act childish and was stupid enough to put himself in compromising situations - even after he was once (IMO) falsely accused.

He was forced to sit out four games and then had a tremendous season and seems to have his head on straight now with regards to the party side of things.

Suspension is now behind us, hopefully all accusations are behind us, now we just look forward. We play in the SB in less than two weeks, Ben is only 28, we have a D with a few older players but still a good nucleus in place, a solid group of speedy young receivers, a RB who is still young enough to have his best days ahead, and a FO that can still draft studs early. We might just be in the middle of what could be a historic era in Steelers football.

Of course, if even one accusation is proven to be fact then he will be immediately removed from this team and the Roethlisberger era ends right there. I don't think that anyone here would dispute that but no need to talk about that possibility unless it actually happens.

feltdizz
01-27-2011, 01:52 PM
[quote]How can you be right about Goodell when you were wrong about us getting screwed and losing the Ravens playoff game?

Excuse me? I'm sorry, I must have missed where Terrell Suggs' two handed head slap on Ben was called when it cost us 7 points. Can you point that out for me?

We also had to use a challenge AFTER THE OPENING KICKOFF! What kind of incompetent pole smoking morons does Goodell employ when they can't even get an opening kickoff correct?


What about the Jets refs who were going to screw us?

You mean when we were up 7-0, had a clear 4th and 1 spot, but Ed Hochuli for some reason calls for a measurement himself when we are trying to make a play during hurry up and stops us?

You keep saying how wrong I am, and yet, the facts on the field keep proving me right.

The Steelers overcame their blatant attempts, again, to f*ck up our season.[/quote:2yrm2yfo]
they called defensive holding against the ravens on the GL... the punt return TD that was called back? :roll:

they could have overturned Ike's sack fumble in the Jets game.. :wink:

take off the conspiracy tin foil hat.

Everyone says WE get all the calls and have the refs in our pocket. You sound just like them.

Crash
01-27-2011, 02:55 PM
Everyone says WE get all the calls and have the refs in our pocket

But we don't. History proves we don't. They talk about XL, but they don't talk about the calls they tried to screw us with (and did in Indy) that whole playoff run.