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fordfixer
01-22-2011, 01:39 AM
Big Ben not given same recognition as other QBs
Jason Cole
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=j ... gben012111 (http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=jc-disregardingbigben012111)


PITTSBURGH – Ben Roethlisberger(notes) and Terry Bradshaw seem destined to suffer the same fate.

No matter how many Super Bowls they win, they’ll never get respect for being central to that success. Call it the Steeler Syndrome.

“When you talk about the Steelers, it’s always about the defense, it’s never about Ben,” said Trent Dilfer, who helped the Baltimore Ravens win the Super Bowl in the 2000 season and now works as an analyst with ESPN. “To me, there are five truly great quarterbacks in the league right now: Tom Brady(notes), Peyton Manning(notes), Ben, Drew Brees(notes) and Philip Rivers(notes). Aaron Rodgers(notes) is getting there, but he doesn’t have the championship pelts or, in Rivers’ case, some pretty impressive playoff performances in conference championship games.

“You can take those five and put them in any order you want one thru five and it doesn’t matter. I wouldn’t call anyone crazy no matter what order you put those guys in. You can justify Tom being No. 1, Peyton No. 2 and Ben No. 3. You can justify Peyton being No. 1. You can justify Ben being No. 1, in my opinion. But, for whatever reasons, Ben doesn’t get as much respect as the others.”

Said another former signal caller turned analyst, Rich Gannon: “It’s like when Bradshaw was the Steelers quarterback and people didn’t think of him as one of the truly elite. You talk about Ben and people don’t give him his due, but then you look at some of the numbers and they’re amazing. Then you consider that he has two Super Bowl wins already and getting close to maybe getting a third and you say, ‘Man, there’s something pretty special going on here.’ ”

Yet both men notice the same thing that happens whenever any member of the media dares to compare Roethlisberger with Brady or Manning. The emails or calls pour in with criticism about how no one in their right mind would ever dare to really think that Roethlisberger is as good as those other guys. Any appreciation of Roethlisberger on that level is almost seen as heresy.

Dilfer and Gannon isolated a number of reasons why Roethlisberger, in particular, doesn’t get the same level of respect as other top passers.

The Fantasy Football Effect
The growth in fantasy football has changed the perception of what is a great quarterback. Rather than being about how effective a quarterback can be in a given offensive system (and in concert with the way a team plays defense), the measurable factors are simply yards, touchdowns and all the other numbers that go with individual performance. From that perspective, Roethlisberger isn’t bad, but he’s not in Manning, Brady, Brees or Rivers’ territory. Likewise, he’s not as explosive as Rodgers or Michael Vick(notes).

“It’s absolutely fantasy football driven,” Dilfer said. “He’s not the fantasy football juggernaut like Peyton, Tom, Philip or Drew or even Aaron. A lot of the perception about quarterbacks now is fantasy driven. There’s no question in my mind from having worked in the media side for awhile now.”

In seven years, Roethlisberger has thrown more than 18 touchdowns in a season only twice, averaged more than 30 throws a game only three times and topped 4,000 yards in a season only once. Conversely, when it comes to statistics that actually may be a little more indicative of team success, Roethlisberger has put up some amazing numbers. He has averaged 8.0 yards per pass attempt for his career and 8.5 yards over the past two seasons.

Anything over 7.5 yards per attempt is in championship range.

Likewise, Roethlisberger’s touchdown-to-interception ratio in recent years has been mostly excellent. In three of the past four years, Roethlisberger has at least a 2-to-1 ratio, if not at or near 3-to-1.

“You break down the numbers and some of the things like that are just amazing,” Gannon said. “Yards per attempt, his rating … I mean, he had five interceptions this season. With the way he plays, the way he really pushes to get the big play downfield, to do that and not throw more interceptions is just incredible.”

On top of all that, there is the most important stat: Roethlisberger is 9-2 in the playoffs. That’s the second-best record in NFL postseason history behind Bart Starr at 9-1.

“If you’re talking about playing within the system that a team wants and doing what works for your team, Ben is pretty amazing,” Gannon said. “They don’t really block that well for him and they know it, but they call plays knowing that he’s going to get hit and he still executes what they’re trying to do. Like I said, that’s really amazing.”

Roethlisberger is unconventional
To put this another way, Roethlisberger doesn’t play pretty football. Other passers like Manning, Brady and Brees have perfected the art of throwing on time and running their offenses with great precision, executing plays the way they are drawn on the blackboard … or the way so many fans drew up plays on paper or in the dirt when they were kids.

“Ben doesn’t play the way your dad said a quarterback should play,” Dilfer said.

Instead, Roethlisberger looks like the guy in high school who switched from tight end to quarterback after the starter got hurt. He sort of looks like he knows the plays and is winging it because he’s big enough to take a few hits. The expression “by design” doesn’t exist in the Roethlisberger playbook.

“He’s running around, throwing guys off of him, buying time and waiting for something to happen downfield,” Gannon said. “He has the greatest left arm I’ve ever seen. He’s holding the ball in his right arm, waiting to throw and just tossing these 300-pound linemen away with his left arm.”

Dilfer said that, like many fans and passing observers, he didn’t put Roethlisberger on the same pedestal as other quarterbacks until he studied Roethlisberger very carefully.

“I watched 20 of his games. I took two days and watched him really play, studied what they were trying to do and really came away understanding how great this guy is,” Dilfer said. “I appreciate what he does now. He takes poise to a whole different level. By poise, I mean that we all know what it’s like to stare down a pass rusher and deliver the ball. I get that. But with him, you have a defensive lineman dragging you down and he’s still reading coverage. It’s unreal.

“The really good quarterbacks, they know they’re going to get hit. They know there’s going to be pain, but it’s not the pain they’re afraid of. It’s the consequences of getting hit, what might happen, whether you fumble or throw an interception. … With the really great quarterbacks, there is zero fear of failure. They are 100 percent dialed in on success, whatever the next great thing that can happen. The next play is an opportunity for greatness. Dude, this guy can take six sacks or whatever it was against Baltimore and he’s still holding the ball even longer at the end of the game, waiting for the next big play.”

Off-field issues
The obvious detraction from Roethlisberger’s image has been the off-field issues that plagued him in the previous two offseasons. Before the 2009 season, a lawsuit was filed in civil court in Nevada alleging sexual assault. In 2010, Roethlisberger was investigated in a separate incident in Georgia for sexual assault.

Although no charges were ever filed in the latter case, Roethlisberger was eventually suspended by NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell, missing the first four games of this season.

“Obviously, people talk about that stuff with him and it takes away from what they think of him as a player,” Gannon said.

Fair or not, that’s simply reality. For many people, Roethlisberger isn’t judged solely by numbers or playing style or how many titles he wins, he is judged for his actions both on and off the field.

“It has to have an effect,” Gannon said. “Me, I just look at him as a football player. As a football player, he’s great. There’s no question, he’s truly great.”

RuthlessBurgher
01-22-2011, 01:53 AM
“He has the greatest left arm I’ve ever seen. He’s holding the ball in his right arm, waiting to throw and just tossing these 300-pound linemen away with his left arm.”

That's an awesome quote by Gannon.

Crash
01-22-2011, 02:07 AM
Cole can shut the hell up. He was guilty of it too.

I still have our email exchange. He's a fence jumping clown who basically took my side, which he disagreed with, after Peyton gagged last season.

Crash
01-22-2011, 02:34 AM
Aaron Rodgers(notes) is getting there, but he doesn’t have the championship pelts or, in Rivers’ case, some pretty impressive playoff performances in conference championship games.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/b ... 200nwe.htm (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/200801200nwe.htm)

Impressive?

Scarletfire1970
01-22-2011, 07:16 AM
Ben can play the same game as Payton and Brady with success. The difference is, when the play breaks down Ben can actually create one of his own on the fly where the other guys simply can't. The notion that that is all he does is ridiculous. He does run the plays as they are designed as well. He's just got that other part to his game. That is the part that is hard to defend. That is also why we have a chance against the Jets whereas Brady and Manning didn't.

Mister Pittsburgh
01-22-2011, 11:36 AM
Bottom line, in my mind, is if Ben can have the Jets come in here for the AFCCG and pick them apart, AND, create some big plays with his unique style....he really has a chance to show the football world what he is all about.

It isn't going to be easy. It is going to be about 10 degrees or less and the pigskin is going to be smooth and slippery. I got faith in Big Ben though. With all of the NY media on hand, I hope he has the game of his life reminiscent of that 5 TD shallacking of the Ravens the one year. Turn the game into a joke for how awesome his performance is. That would be tremendous.

Crash
01-22-2011, 01:00 PM
Bottom line, in my mind, is if Ben can have the Jets come in here for the AFCCG and pick them apart, AND, create some big plays with his unique style....he really has a chance to show the football world what he is all about.

Won't matter. They didn't beat the Pats*. :roll:

If the first three games of the 2005 playoffs, and then an 88 yard drive to win ring #2 didn't do it? Nothing will.

They will always have excuses to protect Brady and Peyton.

sentinel33
01-22-2011, 01:09 PM
i am all for the shelling. i just want it to begin after halftime. i get uneasy about a huge halftime lead. stay close and then after the half, punch em in the throat and roll them. no halftime for any kind of recovery.

This is a big opportunity for Ben. To beat the team that beat Manning and Brady. to do what they couldnt. that sort of thing.

Irongut
01-22-2011, 02:05 PM
Ben has one person to blame for not being a media darling, himself.

Steelgal
01-22-2011, 02:15 PM
Even if Ben gets #3 this year, I don't see the media opinion of him changing. Even if he gets more than 3 it won't happen.

Several different commentators have talked about it this week and all have pretty much said the same thing. Pittsburgh is known for their defense. Most stated the power running game is no longer there, so more of the offense is on Ben. Even with that, he has such a different 'style' with the way he plays it's hard to consider him as 'elite', by most.

As long as it doesn't bother Ben and by his press conference this week, it doesn't sound like it does, then I say "Screw the media". Ben can make his place in history by being the only quarterback with 5 rings :Boobs

Irongut
01-22-2011, 02:24 PM
Even if Ben gets #3 this year, I don't see the media opinion of him changing. Even if he gets more than 3 it won't happen.

Several different commentators have talked about it this week and all have pretty much said the same thing. Pittsburgh is known for their defense. Most stated the power running game is no longer there, so more of the offense is on Ben. Even with that, he has such a different 'style' with the way he plays it's hard to consider him as 'elite', by most.

As long as it doesn't bother Ben and by his press conference this week, it doesn't sound like it does, then I say "Screw the media". Ben can make his place in history by being the only quarterback with 5 rings :Boobs
Exactly. Who cares? When he wins the 3rd this year, he'll still be labled and carry the baggage of his off-seasons. The press won't push him as a media darling as many will always view him as someone who assaulted women, regardless of facts. Society is used to seeing celebrities get away with crimes and they just assume that is what Ben did, twice. It may not be fair but it isn't changing. The media looks for media darlings with personality and commercial viability. Ben has none of that. There are tons of reports of him being a jerk and his commercial viability is over. He has nobody to blame but himself. Why fans have to defend it or not see it is their issues, not Ben's.

Crash
01-22-2011, 02:28 PM
Exactly. Who cares?

Apparently you do when you have the nerve to suggest that Matt Schaub is as good as Ben, David Carr is a better athlete than Ben, and that the Redskins wouldn't trade Jason Campbell for Ben.

Steelgal
01-22-2011, 02:34 PM
Exactly. Who cares?

Apparently you do when you have the nerve to suggest that Matt Schaub is as good as Ben, David Carr is a better athlete than Ben, and that the Redskins wouldn't trade Jason Campbell for Ben.

come on........... Don't ruin this thread too by the stupid bantering back and forth. It's getting VERY OLD.

Irongut
01-22-2011, 02:36 PM
Exactly. Who cares?

Apparently you do when you have the nerve to suggest that Matt Schaub is as good as Ben, David Carr is a better athlete than Ben, and that the Redskins wouldn't trade Jason Campbell for Ben.

Stay focused. I'm not going to live in the past with comments I may or may not have stated. I'm sure whatever year I stated them, if I stated them, they were my opinions at the time. David Carr is a fantastic athlete or was. His combine tests compared to Ben's prove he's more athletic, quicker and faster.

I've long stated we needed a competent QB. Schaub is that. I don't know if I ever said he's as good as Ben. I'd like to see that quote, as well as the Campbell quote to place in context. Link? We all know you have a way of twisting words, meanings and context.

Irongut
01-22-2011, 02:38 PM
Exactly. Who cares?

Apparently you do when you have the nerve to suggest that Matt Schaub is as good as Ben, David Carr is a better athlete than Ben, and that the Redskins wouldn't trade Jason Campbell for Ben.

come on........... Don't ruin this thread too by the stupid bantering back and forth. It's getting VERY OLD.

He should link the quotes. If he wants to start crap from quotes said years ago, I'd like to see context and accuracy. Crash's brain is broken. He's incapable of moving on but if he's going to bash someone for something, he should at least show context and links for accuracy. We all know he's been proven to be a liar multiple times.

Crash
01-22-2011, 02:39 PM
David Carr is a fantastic athlete or was. His combine tests compared to Ben's prove he's more athletic, quicker and faster.

And yet, he never won anything.

Kenny Davidson was a combine wonder. The Steelers picked him in the second round because of it.

But once the pads came on? He sucked.

They should do the combine wearing pads. The track and field combine is worthless IMO.

Irongut
01-22-2011, 02:40 PM
David Carr is a fantastic athlete or was. His combine tests compared to Ben's prove he's more athletic, quicker and faster.

And yet, he never won anything.

Kenny Davidson was a combine wonder. The Steelers picked him in the second round because of it.

But once the pads came on? He sucked.

They should do the combine wearing pads. The track and field combine is worthless IMO.
And if Ben was in Houston those years, he'd have won nothing as well. What's your point? Ben is fortunate to play here. If Cleveland or Houston take him, he's ringless. If we had Carr the year he came out, he'd have rings. Ben may have been the first to take 100 sacks in a season with the team Carr had. I think he had 78 sacks.

Crash
01-22-2011, 02:50 PM
And if Ben was in Houston those years, he'd have won nothing as well.

But I thought Gary Kubiak would have David Carr among the league's best passers?

Certainly if he could do that to Carr, then Ben would also, correct?


If Cleveland or Houston take him, he's ringless. If we had Carr the year he came out, he'd have rings.

Hate to break this to you? But the Steelers were on a downward spiral prior to Ben.

God Bless Dan Rooney for putting underling Bill Cowher in his place.

If Cowher got his wish and took Shawn Andrews, we would be the Cleveland Browns right now.

Djfan
01-22-2011, 02:52 PM
My view is that Ben has naturally what Peyton tries to get by studying. If Ben studied as much as Peyton the bet has to be that he would be the greatest of all time, IMO.

Let the writers talk. I'd rather have Ben than any guy out there.

Crash
01-22-2011, 02:53 PM
All that film work Peyton does.

And yet he's a loser in the playoffs.

Just like he was in college.

Djfan
01-22-2011, 02:57 PM
All that film work Peyton does.

And yet he's a loser in the playoffs.

Just like he was in college.


Right. My point exactly. He doesn't have the natural skills Ben does. He has GREAT habits to compensate, that can only carry a guy so far in the NFL.

Ben has them.

Irongut
01-22-2011, 03:02 PM
Hate to break this to you? But the Steelers were on a downward spiral prior to Ben.

God Bless Dan Rooney for putting underling Bill Cowher in his place.

If Cowher got his wish and took Shawn Andrews, we would be the Cleveland Browns right now.

That's nonsense.

Dan broke a tie. Don't spin the truth to further your agenda of hatred towards Cowher. These situations happen yearly.

If Cowher drafted Andrews, he likely takes Schaub (who we scouted heavily) in the second. Regardless, we're nowhere near the Browns.

Irongut
01-22-2011, 03:03 PM
All that film work Peyton does.

And yet he's a loser in the playoffs.

Just like he was in college.

Jealousy and bitterness is consuming you.

Steelgal
01-22-2011, 03:03 PM
My view is that Ben has naturally what Peyton tries to get by studying. If Ben studied as much as Peyton the bet has to be that he would be the greatest of all time, IMO.

Let the writers talk. I'd rather have Ben than any guy out there.

Never really thought about that before DJ. Good point :Agree

Crash
01-22-2011, 03:05 PM
All that film work Peyton does.

And yet he's a loser in the playoffs.

Just like he was in college.

Jealousy and bitterness is consuming you.

The only people who are jealous and bitter are the Manning nut huggers who hate the fact that Ben is better. 9-10 vs. 9-2 in the playoffs. I don't really care that Peyton can beat up tomato cans. He sucks in big games.

DukieBoy
01-22-2011, 03:11 PM
Ben has two of the ultimate football recognitions.

Irongut
01-22-2011, 03:16 PM
My view is that Ben has naturally what Peyton tries to get by studying. If Ben studied as much as Peyton the bet has to be that he would be the greatest of all time, IMO.

Let the writers talk. I'd rather have Ben than any guy out there.

Yep, I've been saying that for years.

Irongut
01-22-2011, 03:18 PM
All that film work Peyton does.

And yet he's a loser in the playoffs.

Just like he was in college.

Jealousy and bitterness is consuming you.

The only people who are jealous and bitter are the Manning nut huggers who hate the fact that Ben is better. 9-10 vs. 9-2 in the playoffs. I don't really care that Peyton can beat up tomato cans. He sucks in big games.

Peyton is a great QB. That is not a question. Some of us don't feel the need to bash others to prop up some. That's your weakness, not everyones.

Crash
01-22-2011, 03:20 PM
Peyton is a great QB.

But Ben's better.

Accept that. You'll be better off.

Djfan
01-22-2011, 03:20 PM
Here we go again.

Irongut
01-22-2011, 03:22 PM
Peyton is a great QB.

But Ben's better.

Accept that. You'll be better off.

Both are Super Bowl caliber QB's, like about 7-8 others. Who's better is debateable. It's a team sport.

hawaiiansteel
01-23-2011, 02:01 AM
Starkey: Legacy game for Ben

By Joe Starkey
PITTSBURGH TRIBUNE-REVIEW
Sunday, January 23, 2011


Let's wrap a fairly uneventful week with a juicy quote and assorted other treats heading into what should be a violent AFC Championship Game ...

• Before a few Jets defensive backs popped off about Hines Ward, hardly any of the participants showed a verbal pulse. But a certain ex-Steelers cornerback sure did. Rod Woodson's appraisal of Ben Roethlisberger: "For some reason, not just myself, but people in general — ex-players — when they talk about elite quarterbacks in this game, Ben's not in the top five."

Really? That misguided perception still exists? Surely the unenlightened will convert if Roethlisberger beats a defense that just humiliated Tom Brady and flummoxed Peyton Manning.

Won't they?

"I think if Ben goes to this Super Bowl and plays well again, like he did against Arizona," Woodson said, "that will solidify who he is as a quarterback."

• No doubt this game is critical to Roethlisberger's legacy. Not so much by what he can lose — his greatness is well established among rational thinkers — but what he can gain. You only get so many kicks at the can, and another Super Bowl ring would give Roethlisberger a realistic chance to achieve his goal of becoming the most decorated quarterback in NFL history. Only Terry Bradshaw and Joe Montana own four Super Bowl rings. Roethlisberger is in great position to win a third. If he doesn't, five will seem unreachable.

• Happy birthday, Myron Cope!

• I kinda like Joe Namath's perspective on Roethlisberger: "I'd take him on my side any day of the week, any time of the game, against anybody. I don't believe anyone in their right mind who knows football has a negative thing to say about his work on the football field."

• Not sure if the Steelers worked on any trick plays this week. Maybe ESPN's Bob Holtzman knows.

• Santonio Holmes cannot be serious. He still isn't sure why the Steelers dumped him? He really believes it'll be a "slap back in those guys' face" if the Jets win the Super Bowl?

• I guess that's better than throwing a drink in their face.

• Incredible. This guy was arrested twice in 49 days after the Steelers drafted him — believed to be an NFL record — and the team stood by him. He was arrested again, for marijuana possession, in 2008 (charges dropped). The team stood by him. Last March, he was accused of throwing a drink at a woman in a night club, and that was before he incurred a league-imposed four-game suspension. Why would you get rid of a guy like that?

• Antonio Cromartie cannot cover Mike Wallace.

• Not sure if anyone on the Steelers' roster can cover Braylon Edwards, either. He and Holmes are the Jets' greatest advantage.

• An ESPN.com article this week claimed Troy Polamalu "wasn't a huge factor in the win over the Baltimore Ravens" and "curiously was used predominantly in deep coverage." Let us digest that for a moment. Then let us remember that the Ravens, who gained a total of 126 yards, did not complete a pass longer than 16 yards. Let us confirm that their starting receivers — Derrick Mason and Anquan Boldin — had no catches longer than zero yards. Let's reconsider the notion that Polamalu was not a huge factor.

• The man can play center field like Willie Mays when he has to.

• The radical difference in the teams' personalities is reflected in their attitude toward the HBO series "Hard Knocks." Jets coach Rex Ryan embraced it like a long-lost friend (or maybe a bag of Cheetos). The Steelers weren't so warm when HBO came calling several years ago.

Bill Cowher, then the coach, recently recalled his response, telling the Trib, "I couldn't say no fast enough." If another invite comes along, Mike Tomlin is liable to say no faster than Cowher. "I have no interest in that at all," Tomlin said. "And I hope (team president) Art Rooney feels the same way." That is a safe assumption.

• If the Jets win, their mouths will reopen faster than Wallace on a go-route.

• They won't win. The better defense and quarterback will, albeit in a struggle that busts open late with a big defensive play.

Steelers 24, Jets 13.

Read more: Starkey: Legacy game for Ben - Pittsburgh Tribune-Review http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/sports/steelers/print_719443.html#ixzz1BpbwcPS1