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View Full Version : Do we have the worst defensive secondary in the NFL?



Oviedo
12-06-2010, 10:08 AM
Except for Troy and Ike we have no one who can even cover a bed with a blanket. Talk about scraping the bottom of the barrell, we have Anthony Madison playing DB is critical game situations. He has to be one of the worse DBs in the NFL regardless of what he does on special teams.

Resigning Ike has to be priority #1. Plus we need to draft a CB and Safety early. I think our secondary is the weakest unit on this team by far.

BTW--the rest of the NFL knows it too which is why they are attacking us through the air.

flippy
12-06-2010, 10:27 AM
We do ok when there's a pass rush.

flippy
12-06-2010, 10:28 AM
More Worldis would help.

Imagine the Troy, Timmons, Worlids blitz.

flippy
12-06-2010, 10:29 AM
Oh and Troy had coverage over the top on the TD pass. He was as lost as BMac after 8.5 seconds.

Oviedo
12-06-2010, 10:34 AM
We do ok when there's a pass rush.

But LeBeau "the Genius" is taking Timmons who is one of our best blitzers off the field on passing downs and putting Madison on. Wonder why there is no pressure on the QB?????

steelblood
12-06-2010, 10:52 AM
Oh and Troy had coverage over the top on the TD pass. He was as lost as BMac after 8.5 seconds.

Yes, and on another long pass, Troy hung BMac out to dry. Troy tried to jump a route and left BMac stranded between two receivers. He had little chance on that play.

BMac is a poor corner, but this was not his worst game (neither of the long passes were his fault).

I do agree that db and oline can easily be upgraded in the offseason.

Steelskin
12-06-2010, 11:02 AM
Oh and Troy had coverage over the top on the TD pass. He was as lost as BMac after 8.5 seconds.

Yes, and on another long pass, Troy hung BMac out to dry. Troy tried to jump a route and left BMac stranded between two receivers. He had little chance on that play.

BMac is a poor corner, but this was not his worst game (neither of the long passes were his fault).

I do agree that db and oline can easily be upgraded in the offseason.

I can't agree... there was that "tackle" he attempted on Boldin on the 60 yd rec and an asinine PI on Mason, amongst a flurry of other penalties and blown coverages. It was bad.

SteelTorch
12-06-2010, 11:06 AM
Secondary was great last night, save for a couple bad lapses and a horrid performance by BMac. Only an idiot trying to stir the pot would criticize them for last night. :P

ikestops85
12-06-2010, 11:09 AM
I thought the coverage in this game was better than it had been in the past ... even with the BMac struggles. Even so we are very erratic.

I am a big Ryan Clark fan but evidently last year wasn't an aberation. Even with Troy playing he seems to be a step slow in coverage and never plays the ball. He is always looking for the big hit and has missed many interceptions by doing that.

Between BMac, Gay, Butler and Lewis I hope we have one good DB. The problem is we have seen three of them and haven't found one yet. Although I still have some hope for Gay. I think it's time we bring on Butler and see what he has. I don't think it can hurt.

chiken
12-06-2010, 11:21 AM
To answer the question as it was asked, no We dont have the worst.. Have you seen the Redskins?

We only gave up 10 points to a hot team.. A few big plays yes, but only 10 points. :Cheers

RuthlessBurgher
12-06-2010, 11:37 AM
To answer the question as it was asked, no We dont have the worst.. Have you seen the Redskins?

We only gave up 10 points to a hot team.. A few big plays yes, but only 10 points. :Cheers

Cough, cough...Houston...cough, cough.

pittpete
12-06-2010, 01:18 PM
Ryan Clark has 6 picks in 60 games for the Steelers.
He is not that fast and I believe hes the weak link in our secondary.

Sugar
12-06-2010, 03:31 PM
To answer the question as it was asked, no We dont have the worst.. Have you seen the Redskins?

We only gave up 10 points to a hot team.. A few big plays yes, but only 10 points. :Cheers

Exactly- They have too good an Offense to only score 10 points. The D must be doing something right. I don't care if our secondary has the worst stats in the NFL (which they don't), if they're keeping points off the board the D is successful.

Oviedo
12-06-2010, 03:37 PM
To answer the question as it was asked, no We dont have the worst.. Have you seen the Redskins?

We only gave up 10 points to a hot team.. A few big plays yes, but only 10 points. :Cheers

Exactly- They have too good an Offense to only score 10 points. The D must be doing something right. I don't care if our secondary has the worst stats in the NFL (which they don't), if they're keeping points off the board the D is successful.

If you listen to Derrick Mason and read the Baltimore newspapers and blogs they have a poor offense that is grossly underperforming.

Eddie Spaghetti
12-06-2010, 03:46 PM
Secondary was great last night, save for a couple bad lapses and a horrid performance by BMac. Only an idiot trying to stir the pot would criticize them for last night. :P

+1

like a broken record with this guy.

feltdizz
12-06-2010, 03:46 PM
YES! Our passing D is among the worst...

I can't believe some of you are pointing to the low score as proof our pass D isn't as bad as it is...

It's not like the Ravens put up 30+ on us the last 3 seasons.. it's always a grind.

Oviedo
12-06-2010, 03:58 PM
YES! Our passing D is among the worst...

I can't believe some of you are pointing to the low score as proof our pass D isn't as bad as it is...

It's not like the Ravens put up 30+ on us the last 3 seasons.. it's always a grind.

There is a reason they keep making excuses for the defense

http://www.elitetrack.com/images/blog/ostrich_head_in_ground_full.jpg

NJ-STEELER
12-06-2010, 04:02 PM
watching clark man up on a WR was painful last night


how bout getting some secondary guys that can play the pass

Eddie Spaghetti
12-06-2010, 04:13 PM
who is making excuses? can the DB's play better? absolutely. are they the worst in the league? not even close.

you keyboard warriors crack me up. thinking you know better how to coach defense than a man who has been in the league for over 50 years.

RuthlessBurgher
12-06-2010, 04:16 PM
who is making excuses? can the DB's play better? absolutely. are they the worst in the league? not even close.

you keyboard warriors crack me up. thinking you know better how to coach defense than a man who has been in the league for over 50 years.

http://www.kumah.org/uploaded_images/KeyboardWarrior-758092.jpg

:lol:

Vindrow
12-06-2010, 04:22 PM
Time to sit B-Mac against the Bungles and give Butler a try....he certainly couldn't do any worse :bungalssuck

Sugar
12-06-2010, 07:31 PM
YES! Our passing D is among the worst...

I can't believe some of you are pointing to the low score as proof our pass D isn't as bad as it is...

It's not like the Ravens put up 30+ on us the last 3 seasons.. it's always a grind.

No excuses, I just like the results. At the end of the day I'd rather have our D than whoever happens to have the best secondary in the NFL right now (don't know, don't really care). If having midgrade to poor DB's is offset by having a good D-line and the best LB corps in the league I'll take that too.

You can't have it all.

hawaiiansteel
12-06-2010, 10:20 PM
we definitely had a couple of breakdowns in our defensive secondary last night...

http://photos.triblive.com/photos/PITT/1129481/33037598E.jpghttp://photos.triblive.com/photos/PITT/1129481/33037325E.jpg

SteelTorch
12-06-2010, 10:59 PM
YES! Our passing D is among the worst...

I can't believe some of you are pointing to the low score as proof our pass D isn't as bad as it is...

It's not like the Ravens put up 30+ on us the last 3 seasons.. it's always a grind.

There is a reason they keep making excuses for the defense

http://www.elitetrack.com/images/blog/ostrich_head_in_ground_full.jpg
Oh my God, how stupid some people are...

Steelers are 10th in defensive passer rating, 9th in passing YPA allowed, tied for first in sacks, and second in passing points per game!!! The only thing we're near the bottom on is passing yards per game (24th), but as we all know, yards don't win games. There is no way anyone with half a brain would try to make our defense out to be a weakness.

feltdizz
12-07-2010, 01:24 AM
YES! Our passing D is among the worst...

I can't believe some of you are pointing to the low score as proof our pass D isn't as bad as it is...

It's not like the Ravens put up 30+ on us the last 3 seasons.. it's always a grind.

There is a reason they keep making excuses for the defense

http://www.elitetrack.com/images/blog/ostrich_head_in_ground_full.jpg
Oh my God, how stupid some people are...

Steelers are 10th in defensive passer rating, 9th in passing YPA allowed, tied for first in sacks, and second in passing points per game!!! The only thing we're near the bottom on is passing yards per game (24th), but as we all know, yards don't win games. There is no way anyone with half a brain would try to make our defense out to be a weakness.

so... you admit our defensive secondary is one of the worst in the NFL :wink:

just sayin'

pepsyman1
12-07-2010, 01:36 AM
Ryan Clark has 6 picks in 60 games for the Steelers.
He is not that fast and I believe hes the weak link in our secondary.

My bigger concern with Clark most of the time is that he is usually so intent on giving the "big hit" that he never bothers to even TRY to wrap someone up. If they don't go down from the hit, we end up giving up another 10-15 yards because he doesn't attempt to do an actual tackle. But you're right...he's definitely not a "ball hawk" like most top safeties.

SteelTorch
12-07-2010, 09:21 AM
Oh my God, how stupid some people are...

Steelers are 10th in defensive passer rating, 9th in passing YPA allowed, tied for first in sacks, and second in passing points per game!!! The only thing we're near the bottom on is passing yards per game (24th), but as we all know, yards don't win games. There is no way anyone with half a brain would try to make our defense out to be a weakness.

so... you admit our defensive secondary is one of the worst in the NFL :wink:

just sayin'
Actually, no I don't. If you think that stat alone proves we're among the worst, you're an idiot. :P Just sayin'

msp26505
12-07-2010, 09:33 AM
YES! Our passing D is among the worst...

I can't believe some of you are pointing to the low score as proof our pass D isn't as bad as it is...

It's not like the Ravens put up 30+ on us the last 3 seasons.. it's always a grind.

There is a reason they keep making excuses for the defense

http://www.elitetrack.com/images/blog/ostrich_head_in_ground_full.jpg
Oh my God, how stupid some people are...

Steelers are 10th in defensive passer rating, 9th in passing YPA allowed, tied for first in sacks, and second in passing points per game!!! The only thing we're near the bottom on is passing yards per game (24th), but as we all know, yards don't win games. There is no way anyone with half a brain would try to make our defense out to be a weakness.

so... you admit our defensive secondary is one of the worst in the NFL :wink:

just sayin'

Lies, damn lies, and statistics...

Our D is weak against the pass, but I can't think of another D I'd rather have. They all have weaknesses.

SteelTorch
12-07-2010, 09:38 AM
Lies, damn lies, and statistics...

Our D is weak against the pass, but I can't think of another D I'd rather have. They all have weaknesses.
There's just no pleasing some people. :roll:

feltdizz
12-07-2010, 10:44 AM
Oh my God, how stupid some people are...

Steelers are 10th in defensive passer rating, 9th in passing YPA allowed, tied for first in sacks, and second in passing points per game!!! The only thing we're near the bottom on is passing yards per game (24th), but as we all know, yards don't win games. There is no way anyone with half a brain would try to make our defense out to be a weakness.

so... you admit our defensive secondary is one of the worst in the NFL :wink:

just sayin'
Actually, no I don't. If you think that stat alone proves we're among the worst, you're an idiot. :P Just sayin'

it's not jsut the stats...

I think the photo's above and last weeks amazingly wide open drop by Buffalo along with countless other 3rd and long completions to wide open WR's proves it.

Does our record or stats mean BA is a good OC?

See what I just did right there^ :lol:

SteelTorch
12-07-2010, 12:18 PM
it's not jsut the stats...

I think the photo's above and last weeks amazingly wide open drop by Buffalo along with countless other 3rd and long completions to wide open WR's proves it.

Does our record or stats mean BA is a good OC?

See what I just did right there^ :lol:
Steelers are ranked 5th in the league in holding opponents on third down. Derp! :P

Actually, it is more about the stats because our offense has struggled all year, as evidenced on the field and through the stats. Or are you forgetting this offense only managed to put 16 points against the measly Bills? The only reason for our record is because of our stout defense and playmaking ability by Ben. I've tried to explain this to you numerous times, but apparently you're just too dumb to grasp the concept.

Eddie Spaghetti
12-07-2010, 12:31 PM
easy now.

don't confuse the "lazy boy experts" with too many facts.

:lol:

ikestops85
12-07-2010, 12:45 PM
easy now.

don't confuse the "lazy boy experts" with too many facts.

:lol:

as far as I'm concerned we are all "lazy boy experts". The thing I like most about this board is we can have different opinions and express them without the name calling. If I wanted to go somewhere that the opinions are all the same I would have gone to Steelers.com :wink:

oh, I forgot to add ... I'm on your side of this discussion. :D

feltdizz
12-07-2010, 01:12 PM
it's not jsut the stats...

I think the photo's above and last weeks amazingly wide open drop by Buffalo along with countless other 3rd and long completions to wide open WR's proves it.

Does our record or stats mean BA is a good OC?

See what I just did right there^ :lol:
Steelers are ranked 5th in the league in holding opponents on third down. Derp! :P

Actually, it is more about the stats because our offense has struggled all year, as evidenced on the field and through the stats. Or are you forgetting this offense only managed to put 16 points against the measly Bills? The only reason for our record is because of our stout defense and playmaking ability by Ben. I've tried to explain this to you numerous times, but apparently you're just too dumb to grasp the concept.

Did I say all 3rd down conversions? I said 3rd and longs... derp. Ask anyone on here and they will say they would prefer a 3rd and short over a 3rd and long.

It's true, our measly O put up 16 against the Bills.....AND!!!! Our measly DB's were 5 yards from a wide open WR who luckily dropped the game winner.

You like to name call... but you refuse to admit the obvious. Our secondary is not good at all.... Did I say the D as a whole is bad? No, but we are talking about the secondary.

If you think the secondary is the reason why we are winning you are clearly in denial.

feel free to name call some more... :roll:

Eddie Spaghetti
12-07-2010, 01:15 PM
easy now.

don't confuse the "lazy boy experts" with too many facts.

:lol:

as far as I'm concerned we are all "lazy boy experts". The thing I like most about this board is we can have different opinions and express them without the name calling. If I wanted to go somewhere that the opinions are all the same I would have gone to Steelers.com :wink:

oh, I forgot to add ... I'm on your side of this discussion. :D

i'm not the one who started the "lazy boy experts".

but i will use it on them just as they use it on others.

feltdizz
12-07-2010, 01:16 PM
easy now.

don't confuse the "lazy boy experts" with too many facts.

:lol:

where you do rank our secondary? Not the whole D... the secondary?

"lazy boys" like to pull out stats that have nothing to do with the secondary. Everyone knows we have a great LB corps and we are stout against the run. But the secondary... why can't anyone discuss them without throwing out a bunch of useless stats?

RuthlessBurgher
12-07-2010, 01:51 PM
If you go by yardage totals, the New England defense is ranked 31st in passing (ahead of only Houston), 19th in rushing, and 31st overall (ahead of only Washington). Those 10-2 losers suck even worse than our 9-3 losers according to the stats. :wink:

feltdizz
12-07-2010, 01:54 PM
If you go by yardage totals, the New England defense is ranked 31st in passing (ahead of only Houston), 19th in rushing, and 31st overall (ahead of only Washington). Those 10-2 losers suck even worse than our 9-3 losers according to the stats. :wink:


I don't need stats... our secondary isn't pretty.

Eddie Spaghetti
12-07-2010, 01:54 PM
most rational fans understand that you can't have probowlers at every position on the football field.

our defense has been one of the best, if not the best, in the league for the last 10 years.

but lebeaus schemes are too complicated, he can't get young guys on the field, or he doesn't call the perfect play everytime.

it's comical.

feltdizz
12-07-2010, 02:00 PM
most rational fans understand that you can't have probowlers at every position on the football field.

our defense has been one of the best, if not the best, in the league for the last 10 years.

but lebeaus schemes are too complicated, he can't get young guys on the field, or he doesn't call the perfect play everytime.

it's comical.

our secondary has been much worse the last 2 years than in years past.

why is that comical?

feltdizz
12-07-2010, 03:00 PM
http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsbu ... 12537.html

LeBeau Made the Right Call: Listening to his Players

Players play and coaches coach, but Steelers defensive captain James Farrior and his teammates had seen enough Sunday night.

No more sitting back and taking it.

Enough with Baltimore Ravens quarterback Joe Flacco picking the secondary clean like a leftover Thanksgiving turkey. If the Steelers were going to win the AFC North, someone was going to have to take a bullet for the rest of the team.

Someone was going to have to tell defensive coordinator bad word LeBeau to call more blitzes.

Who better than Farrior? He's one of four co-captains and old enough (35) not to care what people think.

It wasn't easy for a popular veteran like Farrior to make suggestions to his coach, especially during a game. To Farrior, though, the alternative of losing was too unflattering to consider.

"We definitely felt we could get some good pressure. We just had to get the right calls in,'' Farrior said in the afterglow of the Steelers' gritty 13-10 win.

"That's what our guys were preaching on the sideline to the coaches. If we were gonna go down, we were gonna go down blitzing. We definitely didn't want to sit back. Coach LeBeau listened to us.''

In the first half, Flacco had his way with the Steelers. He navigated the longest scoring drive of his NFL career -- 92 yards. He completed passes of 61 and 67 yards and was 9 of 14 for 179 yards and a touchdown with a 131.5 passer rating.

Other than a first-quarter sack by defensive end Ziggy Hood, Flacco was rarely under duress. He was on his way to another score and a career game when momentum shifted.

On third-and-15 from the Steelers 32 in the second quarter, cornerback Ike Taylor caught Baltimore with a surprise blitz and sacked Flacco for an 11-yard loss. The play knocked Baltimore out of scoring position. Instead of trailing 14-0 or even 10-0 at halftime, the Steelers faced only a 7-0 deficit.

In the second half, the tables turned. The Steelers had their way with Flacco, who was 8 of 19 for 87 yards with a 65.8 passer rating, mainly due to a better pass rush making it difficult for him to step into his throws.

With LeBeau dealing out blitzes like a blackjack dealer shuffles cards, the Steelers overwhelmed Flacco with pressure.

"When you dial up the blitz, it's usually hit or miss,'' Taylor said. "We hit (Sunday) night.''

That's a gamble outside linebacker James Harrison wants to take more often.

"I'm of the feeling if you're gonna kill me, kill me at what I like to do and that's blitz,'' said Harrison, the Steelers' sack leader this season with 10.

"In earlier weeks, we were dropping in coverage (instead of blitzing). At the end of the Buffalo game last week, we dropped a whole lot more. This game we brought a lot more pressure than we did in the first (Baltimore) game.''

Flacco threw the decisive 18-yard touchdown pass to T.J. Houshmandzadeh with 34 seconds left in the Ravens' 17-14 win over the Steelers on Oct. 3. The Steelers didn't blitz on the play, and Flacco was free to throw without pressure.

Two months later, the Steelers defense didn't repeat that mistake when Flacco faced second-and-5 at the Baltimore 43 late in the fourth quarter.

Trailing 10-6, the Steelers' defense needed to make a big play or lose any realistic chance of winning the division.

Strong safety Troy Polamalu delivered, sacking Flacco from the blind side and forcing a fumble that led to the Steelers' winning touchdown.

"We felt like we could disrupt, get in Flacco's face, if they gave us an opportunity,'' said Farrior, who recorded a team-high seven tackles and sacked Flacco in the fourth quarter.

"We don't question Coach LeBeau and the decisions he makes. Sometimes we just try to throw something out there and maybe he'll listen. Everybody has their own idea what we should be doing, but he's the guy.''

A smart guy, to be sure. Great coaches aren't too big to listen to their players. To his credit, LeBeau listened.


Props to Spyboot for posting this in another thread...

I think this article says it all... I'm glad Farrior spoke up because our great secondary wasn't getting it done in the first half. :stirpot

JUST-PLAIN-NASTY
12-07-2010, 03:38 PM
McFadden has a serious confidence issue and it looks like DL is trying to let him play out of it. However, I believe he has to call someone elses number here soon.

I like Gays role at #3 and not to sure if moving him as a starter will be more productive as a whole. However...Based on play, I can't believe I'm typing this, he might be the best option. His confidence is clearly back from 2009. McFadden might have to assume his role as the #3.

Lewis still thinks he is in college and thinks his pure athleticism could get him bye. He needs to stop thinking he could jam & run with everyone after he peeks in the backfield. You are playing with the "big boys" now. Stick to fundamentals before you really find yourself in the dog house. I hope the light goes on soon for him because the coaches patience could be running thin. The good thing for him is he could play FS so he might still have a role if his aggressiveness continues to impede his development as a cover guy.

It is a mystery why Butler struggles to get a helmet gameday. From what I saw in the preseason, he was clearly the best "bump" corner next to Ike. He must really be struggling with the playbook or his ST play must not be good. It is a shame...The secondary could really use him. I would love to see Butler practicing against the Steelers O. That could shed some light on things. Seems to be the hardest position for a youngster to see the field at in DL's system.

SteelTorch
12-07-2010, 03:53 PM
Did I say all 3rd down conversions? I said 3rd and longs... derp. Ask anyone on here and they will say they would prefer a 3rd and short over a 3rd and long.

It's true, our measly O put up 16 against the Bills.....AND!!!! Our measly DB's were 5 yards from a wide open WR who luckily dropped the game winner.

You like to name call... but you refuse to admit the obvious. Our secondary is not good at all.... Did I say the D as a whole is bad? No, but we are talking about the secondary.

If you think the secondary is the reason why we are winning you are clearly in denial.

feel free to name call some more... :roll:
So "just" 3rd and long? Have you actually bothered to look up how we do on third and long, or do you just base all your assumptions off one game? I'll give you a hint: the D doesn't give up many third and longs this year. That pass against the Bills? One play out of one game, after the defense was stopping them all night. See, this is why you fail: you run your mouth about things you don't even check your facts on, then use ridiculous reasoning to try to justify it.

Yes, the secondary is part of the reason we're winning. They may have stunk last year, but they've made big improvements this year. They're not top five, but they're not an achilles heal anymore. Deal with it.

As far as the name-calling, I've tried reasoning with you plenty of times without it. But after debating with you so long, I'm convinced more than ever you're just not the sharpest knife in the drawer. :)

Oh, and I DID post stats reflecting our secondary, but you missed them (as you do many things). I also forgot to mention the defense is tied for 10th in the league in interceptions. :wink:

feltdizz
12-07-2010, 04:31 PM
Did I say all 3rd down conversions? I said 3rd and longs... derp. Ask anyone on here and they will say they would prefer a 3rd and short over a 3rd and long.

It's true, our measly O put up 16 against the Bills.....AND!!!! Our measly DB's were 5 yards from a wide open WR who luckily dropped the game winner.

You like to name call... but you refuse to admit the obvious. Our secondary is not good at all.... Did I say the D as a whole is bad? No, but we are talking about the secondary.

If you think the secondary is the reason why we are winning you are clearly in denial.

feel free to name call some more... :roll:
So "just" 3rd and long? Have you actually bothered to look up how we do on third and long, or do you just base all your assumptions off one game? I'll give you a hint: the D doesn't give up many third and longs this year. That pass against the Bills? One play out of one game, after the defense was stopping them all night. See, this is why you fail: you run your mouth about things you don't even check your facts on, then use ridiculous reasoning to try to justify it.

Yes, the secondary is part of the reason we're winning. They may have stunk last year, but they've made big improvements this year. They're not top five, but they're not an achilles heal anymore. Deal with it.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! :lol:

As far as the name-calling, I've tried reasoning with you plenty of times without it. But after debating with you so long, I'm convinced more than ever you're just not the sharpest knife in the drawer. :)

Oh, and I DID post stats reflecting our secondary, but you missed them (as you do many things). I also forgot to mention the defense is tied for 10th in the league in interceptions. :wink:

FAIL!

You are a stat hound... I don't need stats to tell me what my eyes are seeing. That one play was the difference between winning and losing the Bills game and highlights the obvious... our pass D is our weakness. Even the 4th and 2 Flacco under threw was wide open. If you don't think our secondary is the achilles heel I have a great bridge to sell you...

Ask anyone what our weakness on D is... ask anyone the formula to beating us.. it's pass pass pass. 8)

By your logic BA, the OL and our kick off distance have been awesome this year because we are 9-3.

..and you name call because your intelligence is lacking. :Cheers

Eddie Spaghetti
12-07-2010, 05:00 PM
just because you type in big letters doesn't make it so. what is your freakish obsession with the bills drop? you do realize WR's do get open in this league sometimes, right? you're aware the other team pays their players just as much as ours?

the pass defense is not as bad as you make it out. it needs to improve if we are to win another SB, but its not the 5 alarm fire you're making it out to be.

and flaccos pass was short because he had pressure in his face. your argument is so weak, it's almost without merit.

SteelTorch
12-07-2010, 05:21 PM
Did I say all 3rd down conversions? I said 3rd and longs... derp. Ask anyone on here and they will say they would prefer a 3rd and short over a 3rd and long.

It's true, our measly O put up 16 against the Bills.....AND!!!! Our measly DB's were 5 yards from a wide open WR who luckily dropped the game winner.

You like to name call... but you refuse to admit the obvious. Our secondary is not good at all.... Did I say the D as a whole is bad? No, but we are talking about the secondary.

If you think the secondary is the reason why we are winning you are clearly in denial.

feel free to name call some more... :roll:
So "just" 3rd and long? Have you actually bothered to look up how we do on third and long, or do you just base all your assumptions off one game? I'll give you a hint: the D doesn't give up many third and longs this year. That pass against the Bills? One play out of one game, after the defense was stopping them all night. See, this is why you fail: you run your mouth about things you don't even check your facts on, then use ridiculous reasoning to try to justify it.

Yes, the secondary is part of the reason we're winning. They may have stunk last year, but they've made big improvements this year. They're not top five, but they're not an achilles heal anymore. Deal with it.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! :lol:

As far as the name-calling, I've tried reasoning with you plenty of times without it. But after debating with you so long, I'm convinced more than ever you're just not the sharpest knife in the drawer. :)

Oh, and I DID post stats reflecting our secondary, but you missed them (as you do many things). I also forgot to mention the defense is tied for 10th in the league in interceptions. :wink:

FAIL!

You are a stat hound... I don't need stats to tell me what my eyes are seeing. That one play was the difference between winning and losing the Bills game and highlights the obvious... our pass D is our weakness. Even the 4th and 2 Flacco under threw was wide open. If you don't think our secondary is the achilles heel I have a great bridge to sell you...

Ask anyone what our weakness on D is... ask anyone the formula to beating us.. it's pass pass pass. 8)

By your logic BA, the OL and our kick off distance have been awesome this year because we are 9-3.

..and you name call because your intelligence is lacking. :Cheers
Only you would point to two plays out of the whole season and use that as "proof". Another fail again. And I see you also ignored everything else in my post while putting words in my mouth. Typical feltdizz. 8)

Call me a stat hound all you want. Unlike you, I can actually back up my statements with logic. :)


Oh, you're still dumb, by the way.

feltdizz
12-07-2010, 08:14 PM
You said the secondary isn't our Achilles heel this year. You lost already. It isn't just 2 plays... thoseare just examples of our secondaries weakness.

Notice how no one is jumping in to defend this great secondary?

I pointed out 2 obvious plays but you can look at the photos in this thread if you need more examples. I'm not knocking the D as a whole but the secondary? Not good.... at all.

Bmac is too busy looking in the backfield to cover anyone. Gay is good in the nickel but he can be abused with ease unfortunately. Ike is decent but spends to much time swaggin to be an elite DB. Clark used to be decent but he is slow as dirt.

Our whole season depends on our LB's to get pressure because without it our DB's are sitting ducks.

SteelTorch
12-07-2010, 09:45 PM
You said the secondary isn't our Achilles heel this year. You lost already. It isn't just 2 plays... thoseare just examples of our secondaries weakness.

Notice how no one is jumping in to defend this great secondary?

I pointed out 2 obvious plays but you can look at the photos in this thread if you need more examples. I'm not knocking the D as a whole but the secondary? Not good.... at all.

Bmac is too busy looking in the backfield to cover anyone. Gay is good in the nickel but he can be abused with ease unfortunately. Ike is decent but spends to much time swaggin to be an elite DB. Clark used to be decent but he is slow as dirt.

Our whole season depends on our LB's to get pressure because without it our DB's are sitting ducks.
Funny how you can't actually back up your statements, though, except with two plays and your own opinion. At least I have numbers on my side.

You said our secondary was among the worst in the league (actually you said our pass D was among the worst, then you back-pedaled and changed it to our secondary) - I'm telling you you're wrong. They're average at worst. They may be the weakest part of our defense, but they're not an achilles heel and that doesn't make them bad, and certainly not among the worst in the league. If they were, our pass D would not be doing as well as it is.

And I don't know if you actually watch games or just the highlights, but secondaries usually struggle when the pass rush isn't hurrying the QB. On Flacco's lone TD pass, he had over seven seconds to throw. That's just as much the fault of those rushing as it is of the secondary. Not hard to understand (not to most people anyway). :D

NorthCoast
12-07-2010, 10:57 PM
Guess which team is statistically even worse in pass defense? That's right, it's NE. They are at or near the bottom in almost all pass defense categories. So how have they managed? You can cover up a lot of warts with scheme, but in the end it takes a good offense to cover for a bad defense. NE does it by outscoring the other team by a wide margin (+9.2) and they are #1 in scoring offense at more than 30 pts/gm.

feltdizz
12-08-2010, 08:43 AM
Pass D, secondary... both are bad/ among the worst and Torch you are right, it is my opinion. You presented a stat where are pass D is 24th... is that a number that says good or bad?

Point is... stats can show a ton of things but the games show the true story. You talk and talk but all you have is stats, I put forth more than 2 plays but you are acting like a child. Odontoceti expect you to understand the difference between a bad secondary/ pass defense and a bad team.

Northcoast... I agree 100%. Just because a team has a bad pass D it doesn't mean the team sucks.

SteelTorch
12-08-2010, 09:03 AM
Pass D, secondary... both are bad/ among the worst and Torch you are right, it is my opinion. You presented a stat where are pass D is 24th... is that a number that says good or bad?

Point is... stats can show a ton of things but the games show the true story. You talk and talk but all you have is stats, I put forth more than 2 plays but you are acting like a child. Odontoceti expect you to understand the difference between a bad secondary/ pass defense and a bad team.

This is yet another reason why you fail so hard and why I questioned your intelligence. You tend to "miss" things that you don't agree with. The one stat we were 24th in were passing yards per game - and I even said that passing yards don't win games. Everything else, however, our passing D was ranked in the top 10. It was posted right there, but apparently you were too busy grasping at straws to notice. Need I remind you, you first said our pass defense was among the worst in the league, then you changed it to just our secondary.

Oh, and how the players play affects the game, thus it's reflected in the stat sheet. Stats aren't everything, but they are important. Deal with it. You only don't like the stats I use because they don't agree with your preconceptions. :wink:

feltdizz
12-08-2010, 10:28 AM
Pass D, secondary... both are bad/ among the worst and Torch you are right, it is my opinion. You presented a stat where are pass D is 24th... is that a number that says good or bad?

Point is... stats can show a ton of things but the games show the true story. You talk and talk but all you have is stats, I put forth more than 2 plays but you are acting like a child. Odontoceti expect you to understand the difference between a bad secondary/ pass defense and a bad team.

This is yet another reason why you fail so hard and why I questioned your intelligence. You tend to "miss" things that you don't agree with. The one stat we were 24th in were passing yards per game - and I even said that passing yards don't win games. Everything else, however, our passing D was ranked in the top 10. It was posted right there, but apparently you were too busy grasping at straws to notice. Need I remind you, you first said our pass defense was among the worst in the league, then you changed it to just our secondary.

Oh, and how the players play affects the game, thus it's reflected in the stat sheet. Stats aren't everything, but they are important. Deal with it. You only don't like the stats I use because they don't agree with your preconceptions. :wink:

please remind me again.. the first 4 times you typed it I didn't see it. :roll:

Plain and simple, our secondary is among the worst in the league...our pass D is among the worst in the league...

both are primary weaknesses of our D.

Northcoast just posted NE's ranking and it's terrible as well... they are 10-2. A team can struggle in one area and still be a good team.

For some reason you think it's impossible for our pass D/secondary (take your pick or choose both) because they are 9-3.

and stats mean jack in this argument. The pass D is azzz.

Oviedo
12-08-2010, 11:00 AM
Some would incorrectly continue to argue that because we are 9-3 we don't have some serious issues on defense.

I guess the corallary argument that those individuals would make and must support is that we have a Top 5 offense in the NFL because we are 9-3 and we must have one of the best Offensive Coordinators in the NFL because we are 9-3.

SteelTorch
12-08-2010, 11:21 AM
please remind me again.. the first 4 times you typed it I didn't see it. :roll:

Plain and simple, our secondary is among the worst in the league...our pass D is among the worst in the league...

both are primary weaknesses of our D.

Northcoast just posted NE's ranking and it's terrible as well... they are 10-2. A team can struggle in one area and still be a good team.

For some reason you think it's impossible for our pass D/secondary (take your pick or choose both) because they are 9-3.

and stats mean jack in this argument. The pass D is azzz.
And I'm telling you...they're not. I've watched the games and seen the stats. Maybe last year they were among the worst, but this year definitely not. I'm basing my conclusion off of what I've seen and what the stats show. You're basing your conclusion off of absolutely nothing. :P

Oh, and by the way, I never said they must be good just because they're 9-3 (you however have said similar things when defending the offense). That is just another example of how you distort things and put words in people's mouths. Another reason why you fail so hard in this argument. :lol:

feltdizz
12-08-2010, 01:03 PM
please remind me again.. the first 4 times you typed it I didn't see it. :roll:

Plain and simple, our secondary is among the worst in the league...our pass D is among the worst in the league...

both are primary weaknesses of our D.

Northcoast just posted NE's ranking and it's terrible as well... they are 10-2. A team can struggle in one area and still be a good team.

For some reason you think it's impossible for our pass D/secondary (take your pick or choose both) because they are 9-3.

and stats mean jack in this argument. The pass D is azzz.
And I'm telling you...they're not. I've watched the games and seen the stats. Maybe last year they were among the worst, but this year definitely not. I'm basing my conclusion off of what I've seen and what the stats show. You're basing your conclusion off of absolutely nothing. :P

Oh, and by the way, I never said they must be good just because they're 9-3 (you however have said similar things when defending the offense). That is just another example of how you distort things and put words in people's mouths. Another reason why you fail so hard in this argument. :lol:

it's called disagreeing.. I can disagree with your opinion without calling you names and acting like a 5 year old.

You think the pass D is good.. I don't. You think the secondary is good.. I don't. You are an expert in your own mind. congrats. 8)

8)

feltdizz
12-08-2010, 01:07 PM
Some would incorrectly continue to argue that because we are 9-3 we don't have some serious issues on defense.

I guess the corallary argument that those individuals would make and must support is that we have a Top 5 offense in the NFL because we are 9-3 and we must have one of the best Offensive Coordinators in the NFL because we are 9-3.

exactly...

Oviedo
12-08-2010, 01:23 PM
please remind me again.. the first 4 times you typed it I didn't see it. :roll:

Plain and simple, our secondary is among the worst in the league...our pass D is among the worst in the league...

both are primary weaknesses of our D.

Northcoast just posted NE's ranking and it's terrible as well... they are 10-2. A team can struggle in one area and still be a good team.

For some reason you think it's impossible for our pass D/secondary (take your pick or choose both) because they are 9-3.

and stats mean jack in this argument. The pass D is azzz.
And I'm telling you...they're not. I've watched the games and seen the stats. Maybe last year they were among the worst, but this year definitely not. I'm basing my conclusion off of what I've seen and what the stats show. You're basing your conclusion off of absolutely nothing. :P

Oh, and by the way, I never said they must be good just because they're 9-3 (you however have said similar things when defending the offense). That is just another example of how you distort things and put words in people's mouths. Another reason why you fail so hard in this argument. :lol:

it's called disagreeing.. I can disagree with your opinion without calling you names and acting like a 5 year old.

You think the pass D is good.. I don't. You think the secondary is good.. I don't. You are an expert in your own mind. congrats. 8)

8)

felt....the majority would agree with your arguments and wouldn't have to resort to name calling to do so. Thank you for your mature discourse over the past couple of days.

SteelTorch
12-08-2010, 01:47 PM
please remind me again.. the first 4 times you typed it I didn't see it. :roll:

Plain and simple, our secondary is among the worst in the league...our pass D is among the worst in the league...

both are primary weaknesses of our D.

Northcoast just posted NE's ranking and it's terrible as well... they are 10-2. A team can struggle in one area and still be a good team.

For some reason you think it's impossible for our pass D/secondary (take your pick or choose both) because they are 9-3.

and stats mean jack in this argument. The pass D is azzz.
And I'm telling you...they're not. I've watched the games and seen the stats. Maybe last year they were among the worst, but this year definitely not. I'm basing my conclusion off of what I've seen and what the stats show. You're basing your conclusion off of absolutely nothing. :P

Oh, and by the way, I never said they must be good just because they're 9-3 (you however have said similar things when defending the offense). That is just another example of how you distort things and put words in people's mouths. Another reason why you fail so hard in this argument. :lol:

it's called disagreeing.. I can disagree with your opinion without calling you names and acting like a 5 year old.

You think the pass D is good.. I don't. You think the secondary is good.. I don't. You are an expert in your own mind. congrats. 8)

8)
Oh I don't HAVE to call you names. I just choose too. :P

Of course you're entitled to your own opinion. Everyone is. However, unlike you, I can actually back myself up with stuff that makes sense. :wink:

Oh, and you're still dumb.

NorthCoast
12-08-2010, 01:52 PM
While I agree most of the stats point to a sad Steelers pass defense, one intriguing one is average opponent passer rating. This would take into account passing scores, yards, interceptions, completions, etc. The Steelers are 7th best in the league with opposing QBs averaging 77.1 rating. GB, Chicago, Baltimore are top 3 defenses in this category. Worst is Houston with opposing QBs avg rating of 102.1!! Wow!

SteelTorch
12-08-2010, 01:55 PM
While I agree most of the stats point to a sad Steelers pass defense, one intriguing one is average opponent passer rating. This would take into account passing scores, yards, interceptions, completions, etc. The Steelers are 7th best in the league with opposing QBs averaging 77.1 rating. GB, Chicago, Baltimore are top 3 defenses in this category. Worst is Houston with opposing QBs avg rating of 102.1!! Wow!
They DON'T however. They actually point to a good/decent pass defense.

birtikidis
12-08-2010, 02:27 PM
We do ok when there's a pass rush.

But LeBeau "the Genius" is taking Timmons who is one of our best blitzers off the field on passing downs and putting Madison on. Wonder why there is no pressure on the QB?????
Ovi, Timmons has had a quad injury for the past three weeks. that's why he has been coming off on passing downs.

Eddie Spaghetti
12-08-2010, 03:30 PM
felt....the majority would agree with your arguments and wouldn't have to resort to name calling to do so. Thank you for your mature discourse over the past couple of days.

i'm sorry, but this is just ridiculous.

ovi- are you really going to chide other posters for not having "mature discourse" when you are constantly mocking our DC as "saint lebeau" and "the Genious"?

you can't have it both ways pal.

i think the majority of steeler fans understand that the steelers front 7 is the best in the NFL by a wide margin at stopping the run. so naturally teams are going to pass and accumulate yardage. look at the points genius. there were 10 on the road in one of the toughest atmospheres you will find. against a team that is well into the top half off the league in total offense.

this defense is the only reason we are where we are. and thats 1st place.

NJ-STEELER
12-08-2010, 03:33 PM
how much of that rank on the pats pass D has come in garbage time?

birtikidis
12-08-2010, 03:33 PM
I think our secondary catches a lot of flak for one player. BMac is terrible. he may be one of the worst corners i've seen wear a steeler uni. it's not a surprise that the vast majority of yards come against him.

hawaiiansteel
12-08-2010, 05:44 PM
I think our secondary catches a lot of flak for one player. BMac is terrible. he may be one of the worst corners i've seen wear a steeler uni. it's not a surprise that the vast majority of yards come against him.


I agree, BMac was horrible playing for the Cardinals last season and he's continuing his terrible play at CB with the Steelers this season.

if T.O. is BMac's man this Sunday, we will need to give him help with a safety or should we just have Ike follow T.O. around so he doesn't put up similar numbers (10 rec. for 141 yds with 2 TDs) against us like he did in the first meeting?

Sugar
12-08-2010, 06:23 PM
I think our secondary catches a lot of flak for one player. BMac is terrible. he may be one of the worst corners i've seen wear a steeler uni. it's not a surprise that the vast majority of yards come against him.


I agree, BMac was horrible playing for the Cardinals last season and he's continuing his terrible play at CB with the Steelers this season.

if T.O. is BMac's man this Sunday, we will need to give him help with a safety or should we just have Ike follow T.O. around so he doesn't put up similar numbers (10 rec. for 141 yds with 2 TDs) against us like he did in the first meeting?

Wouldn't that mean that BMac would cover Ocho though? The guy hasn't been great against us, but that's probably because of Ike.

birtikidis
12-08-2010, 06:25 PM
I think our secondary catches a lot of flak for one player. BMac is terrible. he may be one of the worst corners i've seen wear a steeler uni. it's not a surprise that the vast majority of yards come against him.


I agree, BMac was horrible playing for the Cardinals last season and he's continuing his terrible play at CB with the Steelers this season.

if T.O. is BMac's man this Sunday, we will need to give him help with a safety or should we just have Ike follow T.O. around so he doesn't put up similar numbers (10 rec. for 141 yds with 2 TDs) against us like he did in the first meeting?

Wouldn't that mean that BMac would cover Ocho though? The guy hasn't been great against us, but that's probably because of Ike.
I think you can put BMac and a safety on chode and be alright. TO has much more of a motor then chode. I'm hoping Timmons is 100% bc i could see Gresham being a chore for Farrior.

hawaiiansteel
12-08-2010, 06:29 PM
I think our secondary catches a lot of flak for one player. BMac is terrible. he may be one of the worst corners i've seen wear a steeler uni. it's not a surprise that the vast majority of yards come against him.


I agree, BMac was horrible playing for the Cardinals last season and he's continuing his terrible play at CB with the Steelers this season.

if T.O. is BMac's man this Sunday, we will need to give him help with a safety or should we just have Ike follow T.O. around so he doesn't put up similar numbers (10 rec. for 141 yds with 2 TDs) against us like he did in the first meeting?

Wouldn't that mean that BMac would cover Ocho though? The guy hasn't been great against us, but that's probably because of Ike.


maybe BMac can bring a Snuggie along to help cover OchoStinko... :D

http://snuggiesightings.com/snuggie/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/ocho.jpg

feltdizz
12-08-2010, 07:59 PM
felt....the majority would agree with your arguments and wouldn't have to resort to name calling to do so. Thank you for your mature discourse over the past couple of days.

i'm sorry, but this is just ridiculous.

ovi- are you really going to chide other posters for not having "mature discourse" when you are constantly mocking our DC as "saint lebeau" and "the Genious"?

you can't have it both ways pal.

i think the majority of steeler fans understand that the steelers front 7 is the best in the NFL by a wide margin at stopping the run. so naturally teams are going to pass and accumulate yardage. look at the points genius. there were 10 on the road in one of the toughest atmospheres you will find. against a team that is well into the top half off the league in total offense.

this defense is the only reason we are where we are. and thats 1st place.

Ovie calls him St. Lebeau because most members call BA the spawn of Satan and blamed BA when the D was getting abused last year.

I think its a stretch to compare his sarcasm to blatant name calling because you don't agree with someone

Now about that D holding Baltimore to 10 points. That isn't shocking.... That is what this rivalry is all about. Points are hard to come by in most games between these 2 teams.

NorthCoast
12-08-2010, 10:28 PM
I think our secondary catches a lot of flak for one player. BMac is terrible. he may be one of the worst corners i've seen wear a steeler uni. it's not a surprise that the vast majority of yards come against him.


I agree, BMac was horrible playing for the Cardinals last season and he's continuing his terrible play at CB with the Steelers this season.

if T.O. is BMac's man this Sunday, we will need to give him help with a safety or should we just have Ike follow T.O. around so he doesn't put up similar numbers (10 rec. for 141 yds with 2 TDs) against us like he did in the first meeting?

If BMac is as obviously bad as what you guys are saying, why wouldn't LeBeau sub in Butler or Lewis? Answer: BMac tackles very well, but does not defend the pass well. LeBeau is obviously trying to limit YACs, it is the only plausible explanation for keeping BMac on the field.

feltdizz
12-09-2010, 01:47 PM
BMac is a very good tackler...

Oviedo
12-09-2010, 02:02 PM
felt....the majority would agree with your arguments and wouldn't have to resort to name calling to do so. Thank you for your mature discourse over the past couple of days.

i'm sorry, but this is just ridiculous.

ovi- are you really going to chide other posters for not having "mature discourse" when you are constantly mocking our DC as "saint lebeau" and "the Genious"?

you can't have it both ways pal.

i think the majority of steeler fans understand that the steelers front 7 is the best in the NFL by a wide margin at stopping the run. so naturally teams are going to pass and accumulate yardage. look at the points genius. there were 10 on the road in one of the toughest atmospheres you will find. against a team that is well into the top half off the league in total offense.

this defense is the only reason we are where we are. and thats 1st place.

Ovie calls him St. Lebeau because most members call BA the spawn of Satan and blamed BA when the D was getting abused last year.

I think its a stretch to compare his sarcasm to blatant name calling because you don't agree with someone

Now about that D holding Baltimore to 10 points. That isn't shocking.... That is what this rivalry is all about. Points are hard to come by in most games between these 2 teams.

Thanks Feltz and you are correct. I tongue in cheek coined that phrase because I was trying to stimulate some discussion about our defense and trends I believe that are becoming recurring problems. Mostly it is as you stated because DLB nevers gets critically evaluated and any failures on that side of the football were constantly being blamed on the offense, e.g. so holy and sacred as not to be questioned.

And I challenge anyone who would like to find any post where I have directly called another poster an "idiot," 'moron" or "stupid". Good luck because I don't do that and if I ever had it was a rare rare exception.

I would also not be offended in the future if anyone is so put off by what I post to put me on "Ignore." I actually encourage it.

papillon
12-09-2010, 02:52 PM
felt....the majority would agree with your arguments and wouldn't have to resort to name calling to do so. Thank you for your mature discourse over the past couple of days.

i'm sorry, but this is just ridiculous.

ovi- are you really going to chide other posters for not having "mature discourse" when you are constantly mocking our DC as "saint lebeau" and "the Genious"?

you can't have it both ways pal.

i think the majority of steeler fans understand that the steelers front 7 is the best in the NFL by a wide margin at stopping the run. so naturally teams are going to pass and accumulate yardage. look at the points genius. there were 10 on the road in one of the toughest atmospheres you will find. against a team that is well into the top half off the league in total offense.

this defense is the only reason we are where we are. and thats 1st place.

Ovie calls him St. Lebeau because most members call BA the spawn of Satan and blamed BA when the D was getting abused last year.

I think its a stretch to compare his sarcasm to blatant name calling because you don't agree with someone

Now about that D holding Baltimore to 10 points. That isn't shocking.... That is what this rivalry is all about. Points are hard to come by in most games between these 2 teams.

Thanks Feltz and you are correct. I tongue in cheek coined that phrase because I was trying to stimulate some discussion about our defense and trends I believe that are becoming recurring problems. Mostly it is as you stated because DLB nevers gets critically evaluated and any failures on that side of the football were constantly being blamed on the offense, e.g. so holy and sacred as not to be questioned.

And I challenge anyone who would like to find any post where I have directly called another poster an "idiot," 'moron" or "stupid". Good luck because I don't do that and if I ever had it was a rare rare exception.

I would also not be offended in the future if anyone is so put off by what I post to put me on "Ignore." I actually encourage it.

On "Ignore" done! :moon :P :tt2

Pappy

Oviedo
12-09-2010, 04:08 PM
felt....the majority would agree with your arguments and wouldn't have to resort to name calling to do so. Thank you for your mature discourse over the past couple of days.

i'm sorry, but this is just ridiculous.

ovi- are you really going to chide other posters for not having "mature discourse" when you are constantly mocking our DC as "saint lebeau" and "the Genious"?

you can't have it both ways pal.

i think the majority of steeler fans understand that the steelers front 7 is the best in the NFL by a wide margin at stopping the run. so naturally teams are going to pass and accumulate yardage. look at the points genius. there were 10 on the road in one of the toughest atmospheres you will find. against a team that is well into the top half off the league in total offense.

this defense is the only reason we are where we are. and thats 1st place.

Ovie calls him St. Lebeau because most members call BA the spawn of Satan and blamed BA when the D was getting abused last year.

I think its a stretch to compare his sarcasm to blatant name calling because you don't agree with someone

Now about that D holding Baltimore to 10 points. That isn't shocking.... That is what this rivalry is all about. Points are hard to come by in most games between these 2 teams.

Thanks Feltz and you are correct. I tongue in cheek coined that phrase because I was trying to stimulate some discussion about our defense and trends I believe that are becoming recurring problems. Mostly it is as you stated because DLB nevers gets critically evaluated and any failures on that side of the football were constantly being blamed on the offense, e.g. so holy and sacred as not to be questioned.

And I challenge anyone who would like to find any post where I have directly called another poster an "idiot," 'moron" or "stupid". Good luck because I don't do that and if I ever had it was a rare rare exception.

I would also not be offended in the future if anyone is so put off by what I post to put me on "Ignore." I actually encourage it.

On "Ignore" done! :moon :P :tt2

Pappy

You won't be able to see this but good :moon :moon :moon

SteelTorch
12-12-2010, 11:29 PM
Still hating, haters? :stirpot

Captain Lemming
12-13-2010, 04:53 AM
As long as we have Troy P our secondary will not be the worst even if the rest of the secondary consisted of:


http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film2/DVDReviews33/a%20The%20Three%20Stooges%20Collection/poster.jpg

Oviedo
12-13-2010, 09:05 AM
Still hating, haters? :stirpot

Still not fooling ourselves because we beat a 2-10 football that marched down the field on us in their opening drive without any resistence. We were saved by exceptional INDIVIDUAL plays by Troy and Woodley. That does not diminish the fact that other than Troy and Ike our DBs are mediocre at best.

feltdizz
12-13-2010, 10:24 AM
Still hating, haters? :stirpot

Still not fooling ourselves because we beat a 2-10 football that marched down the field on us in their opening drive without any resistence. We were saved by exceptional INDIVIDUAL plays by Troy and Woodley. That does not diminish the fact that other than Troy and Ike our DBs are mediocre at best.

Some people are so short sighted. The D played great yesterday. Pressure really does hide our weakness.

If we go no huddle all game and dink and dunk the Jets to death it will prove our OL is the best in the league. :roll:

SteelTorch
12-13-2010, 10:33 AM
Still hating, haters? :stirpot

Still not fooling ourselves because we beat a 2-10 football that marched down the field on us in their opening drive without any resistence. We were saved by exceptional INDIVIDUAL plays by Troy and Woodley. That does not diminish the fact that other than Troy and Ike our DBs are mediocre at best.
Oh yes, because one opening drive (again partly set up by penalties) speaks for an entire game. :lol:

Ovi-logic at its finest.

Eddie Spaghetti
12-13-2010, 12:23 PM
same old song and dance from the "lazy boy" experts.

pass defense provides 3 picks, taking 2 of them back for touchdowns and they point to a meaningless 1st drive of the game.

this is just getting absurd at this point.

ikestops85
12-13-2010, 12:48 PM
The defense had a lull mid-season after starting out great. Now they are playing lights out. Even our secondary is benefitting from the more aggressive style that DL has been calling lately.

Of course Troy had been excellent. Ike has been good. Ryan Clark has slipped considerably in the last couple of years. Once again there was a play where the ball went whistling past him as he focused on hitting the receiver. Bmac rarely has anyone covered. He seems to play in the same area code as the receiver but not any closer.

RuthlessBurgher
12-13-2010, 01:31 PM
Still hating, haters? :stirpot

Still not fooling ourselves because we beat a 2-10 football that marched down the field on us in their opening drive without any resistence. We were saved by exceptional INDIVIDUAL plays by Troy and Woodley. That does not diminish the fact that other than Troy and Ike our DBs are mediocre at best.

Yeah, but Troy and Ike constitute half of our starting secondary. If our other DB's are mediocre, that essentially means they have average, not bottom of the barrel bad. This thread is asking if we have the worst secondary in the league. If one of our corners is good to very good, and our strong safety is awesome to other-worldly, the other two guys could be playing in wheelchairs, and we wouldn't likely be considered to be the worst secondary in the league, because there are teams in which all 4 starters in the secondary are varying degrees of suck with no one close to the talent level or Troy or Ike.

feltdizz
12-13-2010, 02:03 PM
Still hating, haters? :stirpot

Still not fooling ourselves because we beat a 2-10 football that marched down the field on us in their opening drive without any resistence. We were saved by exceptional INDIVIDUAL plays by Troy and Woodley. That does not diminish the fact that other than Troy and Ike our DBs are mediocre at best.

Yeah, but Troy and Ike constitute half of our starting secondary. If our other DB's are mediocre, that essentially means they have average, not bottom of the barrel bad. This thread is asking if we have the worst secondary in the league. If one of our corners is good to very good, and our strong safety is awesome to other-worldly, the other two guys could be playing in wheelchairs, and we wouldn't likely be considered to be the worst secondary in the league, because there are teams in which all 4 starters in the secondary are varying degrees of suck with no one close to the talent level or Troy or Ike.

No one said they were the worst... but are they among the worst? I think so...

Troy is amazing... but there is a huge drop off after that. BMac pretty much puts our secondary into the bottom 3rd all by himself. Ike is having a decent year but in all honesty I think most will agree our secondary isn't that good.

No one fears our secondary, they fear Troy and the LB's blitzing.

I don't see why 3 great plays by Troy and Woodley against a 2-9 Bungles team AT HOME proves our secondary has turned a corner.

Eddie Spaghetti
12-13-2010, 02:28 PM
i'm getting dizzy from all the spin.

nobody fears our secondary, they fear troy and the LB's?

just stop dude, you look ridiculous. the pass defense is a part of the greater whole which is one of the top defenses in the league and has been for awhile now.

steelblood
12-13-2010, 02:37 PM
our secondary is nowhere near the worst the NFL. Ike is a good NFL corner, Troy is exceptional (though his aggressive style can be exploited), Clark is slow but savvy, Gay has often looked decent at nickel back (and occasionally terrible), and BMac is not very good as a starter. All in all, I think we average out to an average pass defense. We have weaknesses. But, most teams do. And, with the way the rules are now, pass defenses rarely look dominant against good teams.

This thread had legs when we lost to the Pats because we looked terrible. But, then the Pats did the same thing to the Jets and Bears (both have good defenses). Is our secondary Super Bowl quality? Maybe not. But, worst in the NFL? Not even close.

The Bengals may be 2-10, but they still produce a high number of points and decent yards. We held a good offense down for most of the day and scored on them twice. It was a great effort. It was also nice to see LeBeau get more aggressive and disguise his coverages cleverly. It was also nice to see our offense get jobbed on several calls and still move the ball effectively (even though we again stalled in the red zone).

feltdizz
12-13-2010, 02:40 PM
i'm getting dizzy from all the spin.

nobody fears our secondary, they fear troy and the LB's?

just stop dude, you look ridiculous. the pass defense is a part of the greater whole which is one of the top defenses in the league and has been for awhile now.


Teams fear Ben and Mike Wallace.... does that mean our OL is top notch?

It's not rocket science dude...

Eddie Spaghetti
12-13-2010, 02:45 PM
Teams fear Ben and Mike Wallace.... does that mean our OL is top notch?

It's not rocket science dude...

just stop.

you're not even making any sense at this point.

feltdizz
12-13-2010, 02:46 PM
our secondary is nowhere near the worst the NFL. Ike is a good NFL corner, Troy is exceptional (though his aggressive style can be exploited), Clark is slow but savvy, Gay has often looked decent at nickel back (and occasionally terrible), and BMac is not very good as a starter. All in all, I think we average out to an average pass defense. We have weaknesses. But, most teams do. And, with the way the rules are now, pass defenses rarely look dominant against good teams.

This thread had legs when we lost to the Pats because we looked terrible. But, then the Pats did the same thing to the Jets and Bears (both have good defenses). Is our secondary Super Bowl quality? Maybe not. But, worst in the NFL? Not even close.

The Bengals may be 2-10, but they still produce a high number of points and decent yards. We held a good offense down for most of the day and scored on them twice. It was a great effort. It was also nice to see LeBeau get more aggressive and disguise his coverages cleverly. It was also nice to see our offense get jobbed on several calls and still move the ball effectively (even though we again stalled in the red zone).

To be FAIR no one said it was the worst... I do think we are among the worst though.

We were great against the Bungles but ummm.... anyway you slice it they are 2-10 and Palmer sucks this year. I've noticed lately how teams like the Bungles are still called good because it makes us feel better about our teams deficiencies. They are a terrible team.

Eddie Spaghetti
12-13-2010, 02:51 PM
bengals rank 12th out of 32 teams in the NFL in passing offense.

spin, spin, spin.

feltdizz
12-13-2010, 02:53 PM
Teams fear Ben and Mike Wallace.... does that mean our OL is top notch?

It's not rocket science dude...

just stop.

you're not even making any sense at this point.
:lol:

I easily provided an answer to your question. You don't have to like it but it's the truth...

Troy and Woodley making plays on a 2-10 Palmer doesn't prove the secondary isn't our achillees heal.

RuthlessBurgher
12-13-2010, 02:56 PM
our secondary is nowhere near the worst the NFL. Ike is a good NFL corner, Troy is exceptional (though his aggressive style can be exploited), Clark is slow but savvy, Gay has often looked decent at nickel back (and occasionally terrible), and BMac is not very good as a starter. All in all, I think we average out to an average pass defense. We have weaknesses. But, most teams do. And, with the way the rules are now, pass defenses rarely look dominant against good teams.

This thread had legs when we lost to the Pats because we looked terrible. But, then the Pats did the same thing to the Jets and Bears (both have good defenses). Is our secondary Super Bowl quality? Maybe not. But, worst in the NFL? Not even close.

The Bengals may be 2-10, but they still produce a high number of points and decent yards. We held a good offense down for most of the day and scored on them twice. It was a great effort. It was also nice to see LeBeau get more aggressive and disguise his coverages cleverly. It was also nice to see our offense get jobbed on several calls and still move the ball effectively (even though we again stalled in the red zone).

To be FAIR no one said it was the worst... I do think we are among the worst though.

We were great against the Bungles but ummm.... anyway you slice it they are 2-10 and Palmer sucks this year. I've noticed lately how teams like the Bungles are still called good because it makes us feel better about our teams deficiencies. They are a terrible team.

The title of the thread asks, "Do we have the worst defensive secondary in the NFL?"

steelz09
12-13-2010, 02:57 PM
As much as I'd hate to say it... I think our secondary will get picked apart against a very accurate short passing team like the Pats and Saints (both losses this year).

We can't get pressure on the QB without significant blitzes which will leave our secondary exposed. Brady and Brees' of the world are extremely accurate passers so it's not likely they'll make dumb mistakes.

Brady is getting rid of the ball in the 3 second range which gives little time for our blitzers to get to the QB. This also means that the WR/TE are not running deep routes which isn't good considering our DB's give the receivers a 10+ yard cushion.

I just don't think we match up well against those teams at all. Especially against the Pats, I would try to hold all the WR's to the line of scrimmage and dial up various blitz packages on every play. Hold the WR's at the line as much as possible and by the time they release, hopefully Brady is under pressure. I know this is easier said than done, but I don't see how we'll win otherwise.

feltdizz
12-13-2010, 03:03 PM
bengals rank 12th out of 32 teams in the NFL in passing offense.

spin, spin, spin.

STATS ARE FOR LOSERS...

Carson Palmer has 18 INT's this year.. a 78 passer rating and...

Carson Palmer turnovers this season have led to 79 points for opposing teams, according to the Cincinnati Enquirer. He threw two interceptions that were returned for touchdowns in Cincinnati's 23-7 loss to the Steelers on Sunday.
Our View:

He has thrown five pick sixes this season while also losing a fumble that was returned for a touchdown. Six of his other interceptions and four of his lost fumbles have been converted into 58 points for opposing teams. Pretty soon, he's going to be eligible as a team defense in your fantasy league.

They are 2-10 for a reason. The only reason Carson isn't on the bench is because he was smart enough to get his brother as his back up.

I'm not trying to bash our win... just trying to keep it in perspective and not use this win as proof we have an awesome secondary.

feltdizz
12-13-2010, 03:06 PM
our secondary is nowhere near the worst the NFL. Ike is a good NFL corner, Troy is exceptional (though his aggressive style can be exploited), Clark is slow but savvy, Gay has often looked decent at nickel back (and occasionally terrible), and BMac is not very good as a starter. All in all, I think we average out to an average pass defense. We have weaknesses. But, most teams do. And, with the way the rules are now, pass defenses rarely look dominant against good teams.

This thread had legs when we lost to the Pats because we looked terrible. But, then the Pats did the same thing to the Jets and Bears (both have good defenses). Is our secondary Super Bowl quality? Maybe not. But, worst in the NFL? Not even close.

The Bengals may be 2-10, but they still produce a high number of points and decent yards. We held a good offense down for most of the day and scored on them twice. It was a great effort. It was also nice to see LeBeau get more aggressive and disguise his coverages cleverly. It was also nice to see our offense get jobbed on several calls and still move the ball effectively (even though we again stalled in the red zone).

To be FAIR no one said it was the worst... I do think we are among the worst though.

We were great against the Bungles but ummm.... anyway you slice it they are 2-10 and Palmer sucks this year. I've noticed lately how teams like the Bungles are still called good because it makes us feel better about our teams deficiencies. They are a terrible team.

The title of the thread asks, "Do we have the worst defensive secondary in the NFL?"

i meant inside the thread... I know what the title is asking.

feltdizz
12-13-2010, 03:13 PM
As much as I'd hate to say it... I think our secondary will get picked apart against a very accurate short passing team like the Pats and Saints (both losses this year).

We can't get pressure on the QB without significant blitzes which will leave our secondary exposed. Brady and Brees' of the world are extremely accurate passers so it's not likely they'll make dumb mistakes.

Brady is getting rid of the ball in the 3 second range which gives little time for our blitzers to get to the QB. This also means that the WR/TE are not running deep routes which isn't good considering our DB's give the receivers a 10+ yard cushion.

I just don't think we match up well against those teams at all. Especially against the Pats, I would try to hold all the WR's to the line of scrimmage and dial up various blitz packages on every play. Hold the WR's at the line as much as possible and by the time they release, hopefully Brady is under pressure. I know this is easier said than done, but I don't see how we'll win otherwise.

Well, given our seeding right now lets hope the Pats get knocked off and the Saints don't make it to the SB.

Funny thing is the Pats passing D was said to be 31st... but it sure doesn't look like they are 31st. Stats only tell a portion of the whole story.

steelblood
12-13-2010, 03:23 PM
our secondary is nowhere near the worst the NFL. Ike is a good NFL corner, Troy is exceptional (though his aggressive style can be exploited), Clark is slow but savvy, Gay has often looked decent at nickel back (and occasionally terrible), and BMac is not very good as a starter. All in all, I think we average out to an average pass defense. We have weaknesses. But, most teams do. And, with the way the rules are now, pass defenses rarely look dominant against good teams.

This thread had legs when we lost to the Pats because we looked terrible. But, then the Pats did the same thing to the Jets and Bears (both have good defenses). Is our secondary Super Bowl quality? Maybe not. But, worst in the NFL? Not even close.

The Bengals may be 2-10, but they still produce a high number of points and decent yards. We held a good offense down for most of the day and scored on them twice. It was a great effort. It was also nice to see LeBeau get more aggressive and disguise his coverages cleverly. It was also nice to see our offense get jobbed on several calls and still move the ball effectively (even though we again stalled in the red zone).

To be FAIR no one said it was the worst... I do think we are among the worst though.

We were great against the Bungles but ummm.... anyway you slice it they are 2-10 and Palmer sucks this year. I've noticed lately how teams like the Bungles are still called good because it makes us feel better about our teams deficiencies. They are a terrible team.

The title of the thread asks, "Do we have the worst defensive secondary in the NFL?"

i meant inside the thread... I know what the title is asking.

Worst or "among the worst"... I think my points still apply.

feltdizz
12-13-2010, 04:03 PM
our secondary is nowhere near the worst the NFL. Ike is a good NFL corner, Troy is exceptional (though his aggressive style can be exploited), Clark is slow but savvy, Gay has often looked decent at nickel back (and occasionally terrible), and BMac is not very good as a starter. All in all, I think we average out to an average pass defense. We have weaknesses. But, most teams do. And, with the way the rules are now, pass defenses rarely look dominant against good teams.

This thread had legs when we lost to the Pats because we looked terrible. But, then the Pats did the same thing to the Jets and Bears (both have good defenses). Is our secondary Super Bowl quality? Maybe not. But, worst in the NFL? Not even close.

The Bengals may be 2-10, but they still produce a high number of points and decent yards. We held a good offense down for most of the day and scored on them twice. It was a great effort. It was also nice to see LeBeau get more aggressive and disguise his coverages cleverly. It was also nice to see our offense get jobbed on several calls and still move the ball effectively (even though we again stalled in the red zone).

To be FAIR no one said it was the worst... I do think we are among the worst though.

We were great against the Bungles but ummm.... anyway you slice it they are 2-10 and Palmer sucks this year. I've noticed lately how teams like the Bungles are still called good because it makes us feel better about our teams deficiencies. They are a terrible team.

The title of the thread asks, "Do we have the worst defensive secondary in the NFL?"

i meant inside the thread... I know what the title is asking.

Worst or "among the worst"... I think my points still apply.

so does mine 8)

Oviedo
12-13-2010, 04:07 PM
As much as I'd hate to say it... I think our secondary will get picked apart against a very accurate short passing team like the Pats and Saints (both losses this year).

We can't get pressure on the QB without significant blitzes which will leave our secondary exposed. Brady and Brees' of the world are extremely accurate passers so it's not likely they'll make dumb mistakes.

Brady is getting rid of the ball in the 3 second range which gives little time for our blitzers to get to the QB. This also means that the WR/TE are not running deep routes which isn't good considering our DB's give the receivers a 10+ yard cushion.

I just don't think we match up well against those teams at all. Especially against the Pats, I would try to hold all the WR's to the line of scrimmage and dial up various blitz packages on every play. Hold the WR's at the line as much as possible and by the time they release, hopefully Brady is under pressure. I know this is easier said than done, but I don't see how we'll win otherwise.

:Agree

Eddie Spaghetti
12-13-2010, 04:21 PM
STATS ARE FOR LOSERS...

They are 2-10 for a reason. The only reason Carson isn't on the bench is because he was smart enough to get his brother as his back up.

I'm not trying to bash our win... just trying to keep it in perspective and not use this win as proof we have an awesome secondary.

i'm just trying to bring some facts to the table since all you seem to be able to do is stamp your feet like a child and make bizarre analogies. please pont out the posts where anyone called them an "awesome secondary". i'll wait.

regardless of what you think, the duo of owens/johnson are respected throughout the league. we did catch a break with greshamn being out. the bengals(like the ravens) rank well into the top half of the league in throwing the football on sundays. they must be throwing it on somebody...

it just wasn't us.

feltdizz
12-13-2010, 05:00 PM
STATS ARE FOR LOSERS...

They are 2-10 for a reason. The only reason Carson isn't on the bench is because he was smart enough to get his brother as his back up.

I'm not trying to bash our win... just trying to keep it in perspective and not use this win as proof we have an awesome secondary.

i'm just trying to bring some facts to the table since all you seem to be able to do is stamp your feet like a child and make bizarre analogies. please pont out the posts where anyone called them an "awesome secondary". i'll wait.

regardless of what you think, the duo of owens/johnson are respected throughout the league. we did catch a break with greshamn being out. the bengals(like the ravens) rank well into the top half of the league in throwing the football on sundays. they must be throwing it on somebody...

it just wasn't us.

my analogies are far from bizarre... I merely pointed out why 1 game doesn't mean our secondary is now legit anymore than 1 good game by Ben and Wallace wouldn't prove our OL is fixed. I thought it was a pretty simple analogy. No spin at all...

The Pats pass D is/was ranked 31st. Is it a fact that their pass D sucks? I don't think so... stats aren't facts.. they are numbers on a paper that give you a slice of a very big pie. When are these plays happening? What is the score at the time the stats are being racked up? I know stats are useful but that aren't "facts" when judging a secondary or passing attack.

As far as the Ravens game... Flacco was eating our secondary up for 186 yards by halftime. It wasn't until we brought the blitz that our D improved.

If the Ravens O is so great why are their fans piling on Cam? Why is Mason dogging the O if they are so great? Maybe, just maybe, one or 2 games where they piled up stats doesn't tell the whole story of how good or bad their offense is.

Eddie Spaghetti
12-13-2010, 05:26 PM
my analogies are far from bizarre... I merely pointed out why 1 game doesn't mean our secondary is now legit anymore than 1 good game by Ben and Wallace wouldn't prove our OL is fixed. I thought it was a pretty simple analogy. No spin at all...

that makes zero sense. it's not even the same side of the ball.

why not compare an apple to a bowling pin next?

feltdizz
12-13-2010, 06:40 PM
my analogies are far from bizarre... I merely pointed out why 1 game doesn't mean our secondary is now legit anymore than 1 good game by Ben and Wallace wouldn't prove our OL is fixed. I thought it was a pretty simple analogy. No spin at all...

that makes zero sense. it's not even the same side of the ball.

why not compare an apple to a bowling pin next?

:roll: you just went full retard on me.

We disagree on this but I'm not going to continue discussing this when it's obvious you are dumbing yourself down.

:Cheers

SteelTorch
12-13-2010, 06:45 PM
my analogies are far from bizarre... I merely pointed out why 1 game doesn't mean our secondary is now legit anymore than 1 good game by Ben and Wallace wouldn't prove our OL is fixed. I thought it was a pretty simple analogy. No spin at all...

that makes zero sense. it's not even the same side of the ball.

why not compare an apple to a bowling pin next?

:roll: you just went full retard on me.

We disagree on this but I'm not going to continue discussing this when it's obvious you are dumbing yourself down.

:Cheers
People usually have to dumb themselves down to talk on the same level with you. :P

PS: We're all going by more than one game, too.

feltdizz
12-13-2010, 06:50 PM
my analogies are far from bizarre... I merely pointed out why 1 game doesn't mean our secondary is now legit anymore than 1 good game by Ben and Wallace wouldn't prove our OL is fixed. I thought it was a pretty simple analogy. No spin at all...

that makes zero sense. it's not even the same side of the ball.

why not compare an apple to a bowling pin next?

:roll: you just went full retard on me.

We disagree on this but I'm not going to continue discussing this when it's obvious you are dumbing yourself down.

:Cheers
People usually have to dumb themselves down to talk on the same level with you. :P

PS: We're all going by more than one game, too.

that was so original :moon

those who are critical or concerned with the secondary are also going by more than one or 2 games.

SteelTorch
12-13-2010, 06:54 PM
that was so original :moon

those who are critical or concerned with the secondary are also going by more than one or 2 games.
In that case, you may like this:

Steelers defense now ranks 6th in passing YPA allowed, fifth in defensive passer rating, and 6th in interceptions. :Beer

feltdizz
12-13-2010, 07:15 PM
that was so original :moon

those who are critical or concerned with the secondary are also going by more than one or 2 games.
In that case, you may like this:

Steelers defense now ranks 6th in passing YPA allowed, fifth in defensive passer rating, and 6th in interceptions. :Beer

I love it... I just hope we keep blitzing to hide our weakness.

RuthlessBurgher
12-13-2010, 08:37 PM
my analogies are far from bizarre... I merely pointed out why 1 game doesn't mean our secondary is now legit anymore than 1 good game by Ben and Wallace wouldn't prove our OL is fixed. I thought it was a pretty simple analogy. No spin at all...

that makes zero sense. it's not even the same side of the ball.

why not compare an apple to a bowling pin next?

You can juggle both of them.

You need a tree to make both of them.

Both can come in various shapes, sizes, and colors.

hawaiiansteel
12-13-2010, 08:56 PM
my analogies are far from bizarre... I merely pointed out why 1 game doesn't mean our secondary is now legit anymore than 1 good game by Ben and Wallace wouldn't prove our OL is fixed. I thought it was a pretty simple analogy. No spin at all...

that makes zero sense. it's not even the same side of the ball.

why not compare an apple to a bowling pin next?

You can juggle both of them.

You need a tree to make both of them.

Both can come in various shapes, sizes, and colors.


both can be used as targets to shoot at...

http://www.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/13122794/2/istockphoto_13122794-surprised-businessman-red-apple-on-head-hit-by-arrow.jpghttp://people.uwec.edu/PLATTDJ/Images/Clip%20Art/bowling_pins.jpg