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fordfixer
11-18-2010, 03:12 AM
Big Ben's return hasn't boosted Steelers as expected


* By Vic Carucci NFL.com
* Senior Columnist
* Published: Nov. 17, 2010 at 08:11 p.m.
* Updated: Nov. 17, 2010 at 10:54 p.m.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d8 ... ule=HP_cp2 (http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d81c3315c/article/big-bens-return-hasnt-boosted-steelers-as-expected?module=HP_cp2)

Maybe we had it all wrong about the Pittsburgh Steelers.

At one point, they looked to be in the best position of any team in the NFL. They roared to 3-1 while their starting quarterback was serving a suspension. It only made sense to assume they would get dramatically better from there, right?

Not quite.

Since Ben Roethlisberger's return, the Steelers have gone 3-2. Of the four high-quality teams they've faced this season, they've managed to beat only one, Atlanta, in overtime in the season-opener.

The Baltimore Ravens handed the Steelers their only loss of the first quarter of the schedule, the last without Roethlisberger. But things haven't exactly gotten a whole lot better. In Week 8, the Steelers suffered a loss at New Orleans that many Steelers fans/apologists were saying was inevitable because the Saints were playing before a fired-up, primetime Halloween crowd and were desperate to rebound from an embarrassing loss to Cleveland in Week 7.

A week later, the Steelers barely hung on for a victory against the struggling Cincinnati Bengals. And last Sunday night they were humiliated at home by the New England Patriots.

All of a sudden, the Steelers don't look like the team that so many of us were crowning as the AFC's best, if not No. 1 in the NFL, only a few weeks ago.

What's wrong?

The most obvious problem is injuries on both lines. The Steelers are clearly having problems on an offensive line that has lost two starters for the season -- guard Willie Colon and tackle Max Starks -- and was without a third guard, Chris Kemoeatu, against the Patriots.

The Steelers' defensive line is feeling the ill effects of being without ends Aaron Smith, who might miss the rest of the year with a triceps injury, and Brett Keisel, who has missed three of the last four games with a bad hamstring.

"To me, the quarterback and the running backs and the receivers, those are all the hood ornaments," said former NFL receiver and current NBC "Sunday Night Football" analyst Cris Collinsworth. "And then you've got the engine -- the defensive line and the offensive line. And their engine's falling apart on them. You can only survive without a carburetor and an oil filter for so long."

But the Steelers' troubles, according to Collinsworth and other analysts who have watched the team closely, don't end with the injuries. They have some fundamental problems, too. The most prominent: the structure of their offense.

The Steelers are at their best when they have an early lead and are able to pound the ball on the ground. Their offensive line is ultra-big and ultra-physical. But it also is ultra-slow, with the exception of rookie center Maurkice Pouncey. When the Steelers fall behind and have to rely heavily on the pass, their protection can easily fail against a team with a quick, aggressive pass rush, such as the one the Patriots unleashed.

In addition, Roethlisberger is facing greater challenges than ever to make his improvisational, run-around-until-receivers-get-open style of play work as well as it did in allowing him to help the Steelers win two Super Bowls.

According to the analysts, it has nothing to do with any rust from Roethlisberger's suspension or issues with his adjusting to being back with his teammates or vice versa. It is a case of opponents having a much better handle on how to defend him.

In particular, two of the best defensive minds in the league -- Saints defensive coordinator Gregg Williams and Patriots coach Bill Belichick -- applied the perfect strategy to minimize Roethlisberger's impact while their teams' offenses were able to move in front. They concentrated on keeping him in the pocket and getting him on the ground before he can find a receiver who gets free because of the inevitable breakdown in coverage.

Roethlisberger always is susceptible to sacks, but his risk-reward approach often results in big plays that make the sacks moot. That wasn't the case against the Saints, who sacked him three times, or the Patriots, who sacked him five times.

"Ben's more comfortable throwing the ball in the second and third phase of the play, not the initial phase where most quarterbacks are getting the ball out," former NFL defensive back and current NFL Network analyst Solomon Wilcots said. "Peyton Manning is a rhythm guy. Tom Brady, rhythm guy. Three-step drop, bam. Five-step drop, bam. Ben is going to wait, wait, wait, coverage breaks down, he spins around, rolls out, (and says) 'Now my receiver can get open, and I'm making big plays.'

"But what defenses are doing, especially the last couple of games, is they've contained him. They've not allowed him to get outside the pocket, and they've tackled him. He's not able to run around. He's trying to get the play into the second phase and third phase, but they're not allowing him to do that because of containment and tackling him."

The Steelers' coaches need to take a hard look at what has happened in recent games and devise strategy that gives opposing defenses something to think about other than Roethlisberger's determination to extend plays.

"If I were coaching the Steelers, I would put together a package of plays where Ben had to get the ball out immediately," Collinsworth said. "I want to establish in the defense's mind that Ben's not going to hold it on every pass play, which is kind of what he's doing right now. I don't say that that's wrong, but in this league, you can't do anything all the time. It's like throwing fastballs to all hitters. I don't care how good your fastball is, you're going to get toasted on that."

Wilcots thinks the solution is to restore balance to the offense. With trust in Roethlisberger's playmaking ability and big arm, and the speed of wide receiver Mike Wallace, the Steelers sometimes have an over-dependency on trying for the big play. If they are to be the team that can consistently compete on a high level, they also need to pound the ball on the ground.

It might not be as easy as it was before the injuries on their offensive line began to mount, but it is necessary.

"They've got to develop the offense and its flexibility and not be overanxious to be explosive at the expense of being ball-control," Wilcots said. "I'm not sure they're in sync with being with what I call a good, complementary offense. They think the defense is so good that they can just throw the ball 40 times a game, maybe get a pick and a turnover … 'Oh, our defense will save us.' Well, clearly the other night the defense couldn't because they didn't have a sack or an interception on Tom Brady."

Which brings up another fundamental problem the Steelers are facing: Their defense is aging, with more than half of its starters and several backups 30 or older. The obvious advantage is that they have players who know how to deal with the complexities of Dick LeBeau's 3-4 scheme. The obvious disadvantage is that they're sometimes too old to execute effectively.

In some cases, the Steelers simply don't have the speed to keep up with faster and younger offenses, such as the one the Patriots brought to Heinz Field. The spread attack the Pats employed took away from the Steelers' strength, which is their pass rush, and forced them to spend much of the game chasing around receivers. That was particularly overwhelming for the defenders trying to keep up with rookie tight end Rob Gronkowski, who caught three touchdown passes.

Of course, not every opponent is going to have the same success spreading out the Steelers' defense that the Patriots enjoyed.

"Tom Brady's a pretty unique character," Collinsworth said. "I don't see the Raiders (Pittsburgh's Week 11 opponent) lining up in a spread offense with their offensive line being able to pass-protect these guys. When it's Tom Brady back there, that's a different story. Like Peyton (Manning), he's not going to take those hits because he knows how to quickly make the read to get it out of there and make you look bad.

"And when (Lawrence) Timmons and (James) Farrior and (James) Harrison are sitting 10 yards off the ball playing zone coverage, that's not scary. That's like when Lawrence Taylor was dropping in a zone, and you went, 'Thank you very much.' What's scary about (the Steelers) is when they're coming after your quarterback. And by using the two tight ends a lot, (the Patriots) were even able to sort of keep them out of some of that."

Former Steelers coach and current CBS studio analyst Bill Cowher cautioned not to overreact to what has happened in recent games, especially in the debacle against New England. He thought the outcome had as much to do with the Patriots' determination to rebound from their ugly loss at Cleveland in Week 9 as it did with the Steelers' poor performance, calling it "more of an aberration than anything else."

"There's still a lot of football left to be played," Cowher said. "I think we've got to be careful not to draw too many conclusions. If they can stay healthy, and if (running back Rashard) Mendenhall can stay healthy and those two outside 'backs (Harrison and LaMarr Woodley) can stay healthy, I think they're going to be right in the hunt."

LordVile
11-18-2010, 04:37 AM
I'm with Cowher on this one. Plenty of ball left. :Beer

Retired Marine
11-18-2010, 07:40 AM
Thats what the majority of the fans have been saying for a long time. Clip this story out and send it to the front office.

msp26505
11-18-2010, 09:26 AM
Wilcots thinks the solution is to restore balance to the offense. With trust in Roethlisberger's playmaking ability and big arm, and the speed of wide receiver Mike Wallace, the Steelers sometimes have an over-dependency on trying for the big play. If they are to be the team that can consistently compete on a high level, they also need to pound the ball on the ground.

It might not be as easy as it was before the injuries on their offensive line began to mount, but it is necessary.

"They've got to develop the offense and its flexibility and not be overanxious to be explosive at the expense of being ball-control," Wilcots said.

Shhh...don't tell Crash.

This would be returning to 1976 football, when what we really need is to throw every down.

Yoi!

DkBlue
11-18-2010, 09:34 AM
The scheme seemeed to defeat the Steelers last week. Steeler receivers were fighting to make evey catch with defenders around them.

Brady's receivers were wide open and Brady did not seem to go through progressions but threw immediately to where he knew he had an opening.

BradshawsHairdresser
11-18-2010, 09:54 AM
Article is good as far as it goes, but it doesn't explain why the DEFENSE has played worse since Roethlisberger returned. Yes, it hurt some to lose Keisel and Smith, but it's more than just the loss of those two players. It's players and scheme and game-plan and play-calling....but I have to wonder if there also wasn't somewhat of a psychological letdown when Ben came back. When he was out, perhaps they raised their game up a notch or three, because they knew they had to in order to win. But with Superman back in the lineup, maybe the expectation was that he would carry the team, so they backed off.
It didn't help that about that time, Dictator Goodell began his ridiculous assault on the Steeler's defensive aggressiveness.

In ANY event, I hope the Steelers DON'T treat their recent losses as Cowher suggests, as
an "abberation." I hope they ask hard questions and look for answers and make changes to make this team better before the season slips away from them.

JAR
11-18-2010, 09:55 AM
If the defense was playing like it was while Ben was gone... well.....

Djfan
11-18-2010, 10:23 AM
Agreed on the lack of defensive criticism in the article, but what was said about the offense was spot on.

If a putz as annoying as Collinsworth sees it, why can't Tomlin?

feltdizz
11-18-2010, 10:28 AM
run the ball, Yoi!

Pass the ball, Yoi...?

STOP THE PASS YOI YOI YOI!!

when we win it's too much running, when we lose it's not enough running...

I don't care how it's done as long as we win.

feltdizz
11-18-2010, 10:36 AM
All 3 areas on our team need to improve. Our coverage on kickoffs is much better but when the ball doesn't make it past the 10 it doesn't matter...

Sep is having a decent year but I would like to see him drop a few in the coffin corners...

Pass D is azzz and teams are not going to let us bull rush to get sacks. Watching the NFLN last night it was disgusting but impressive how easy the Pats were able to get pressure with there blitzes. They didn't over power us most of the time.. they just waited for our OL to engage the DL and the LB's shot through any gaps with a delayed blitz. DB's... you SUCK. Since you can't run with anyone please take a chance or two and jump a route...

The same thing the Giants did to the Pats in the SB.. the Pats did to us.

Now for the O... 3 step drops and short routes will do wonders for an injured/struggling OL.
Run Mend outside the tackles.... stop throwing those damn bubble screens and can our WR's please, please, please come back to the QB when he breaks the pocket?

Oviedo
11-18-2010, 10:37 AM
Article is good as far as it goes, but it doesn't explain why the DEFENSE has played worse since Roethlisberger returned. Yes, it hurt some to lose Keisel and Smith, but it's more than just the loss of those two players. It's players and scheme and game-plan and play-calling....but I have to wonder if there also wasn't somewhat of a psychological letdown when Ben came back. When he was out, perhaps they raised their game up a notch or three, because they knew they had to in order to win. But with Superman back in the lineup, maybe the expectation was that he would carry the team, so they backed off.
It didn't help that about that time, Dictator Goodell began his ridiculous assault on the Steeler's defensive aggressiveness.

In ANY event, I hope the Steelers DON'T treat their recent losses as Cowher suggests, as
an "abberation." I hope they ask hard questions and look for answers and make changes to make this team better before the season slips away from them.

:Agree I don't think the defensive problems are an aberation. They are more like a recurring trend against teams with good QBs and in some cases not so good QBs.

The #1 problem is that the pass rush is failing and we are exposing the defensive backs. That is why I cannot understand why we continue to rush 3. Makes no sense at all. This defense is totally dependent on the pass rush or it doesn't work. It never has worked without a dominant pass rush but LeBeau didn't blitz or at least rush 4 like a 4-3 defense. Real headscratcher.

feltdizz
11-18-2010, 11:56 AM
just seems odd that we drop 8 and guys are WIDE OPEN.

when other teams drop 8 on us... everyone is covered.... it would be nice to see a WR catch a pass 5 yards down field and make someone miss.

We don't have any shakers or movers in our passing game. It's speed and straight lines.

I like what Wallace is doing.... but he was popped something awful underneath, definitely needs to adjust if he wants to play out a full season.

JDSteeler
11-18-2010, 12:41 PM
That is exactly what I've been saying all season!!!!

Arianus is a stubborn mule, and is so friggin repetitive it's comical...

It's so comical, he's the laughing stock of the defenseive coaches!!!

"It can't be this easy" said one, unnamed defensive coach....

C'mon!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

JD

BradshawsHairdresser
11-18-2010, 12:41 PM
just seems odd that we drop 8 and guys are WIDE OPEN.
That's because our DB's give them a 7-yard cushion...almost like being in a prevent all the time. Also, we do little to disrupt routes or timing by smacking receivers within 5 yards of the LOS. So any QB that can pass with precision is going to always be able to find someone open on a short route. The only hope we have is for their receivers to get the dropsies, OR for our pass rush to force the QB into early or errant throws. IF we could bring some pressure, we might have some success. But we can't seem to be able to do that.


when other teams drop 8 on us... everyone is covered.... it would be nice to see a WR catch a pass 5 yards down field and make someone miss.

We don't have any shakers or movers in our passing game. It's speed and straight lines.
Not sure our WR's are inferior in those respects to those of other teams (although I would like to see El benched and Sanders and Brown given more looks) . But vs. the teams we play, for the most part, their DB's don't give us the 7-yard cushion. If and when they DO loosen up coverage (as per late in the NE game), you will see that Ben has little trouble finding his receivers. I think if our offense was playing against our defense, Ben would pick the D apart.


I like what Wallace is doing.... but he was popped something awful underneath, definitely needs to adjust if he wants to play out a full season.
Wallace is a star in the making. It would help to have more consistent play from our #3 WR spot (El).

Ghost
11-18-2010, 01:17 PM
The title of this article is misleading and was written purely for sensationalistic purposes.

Pretending or alluding to Big Ben’s return as not boosting the team is disingenuous when he’s playing behind a line decimated by injuries (guys starting who wouldn’t catch a whiff of the field on other teams) and a defense missing one of their top 2 players at any position as well as another starting DE.

Ben isn’t responsible for Gay not being able to cover a rookie tight end or make tackles or BMac not really covering anyone ever.

When they face a quality QB; it’s unrealistic to expect Ben to win in a shoot out behind this line. The D has to find a way to slow teams down and not let them get back in a game if they have a nice lead.

This week we need to see the Steelers throttle the raiders. Continue to score. I don’t care if it gets oout of hand – continue to score and practice putting the ball in when it’s first and goal.

birtikidis
11-18-2010, 01:21 PM
I find it funny that Vic called Willie a guard. What season did Willie play guard for us again?

Crash
11-18-2010, 01:25 PM
Wilcots thinks the solution is to restore balance to the offense.

When did they stop restoring balance to the offense? When they were down 23-3?

Idiots like Wilcots look at rushing attempts and think just because we run more that means we are running well.

Soloman also played for LeBeau, he won't bash him either.


"They've got to develop the offense and its flexibility and not be overanxious to be explosive at the expense of being ball-control," Wilcots said

We run the ball on 70% of 1st downs. And this dimwit thinks we are being "overanxious" to be explosive?


Article is good as far as it goes, but it doesn't explain why the DEFENSE has played worse since Roethlisberger returned.

Let's see: Josh Freeman, Matt Ryan, Vince Young, Joe Flacco.

vs.

Drew Brees, Tom Brady, Carson Palmer, Chad Henne, Colt McCoy

I think list #2 has better QBs than list #1 does based on Brees and Brady alone.


The Steelers are at their best when they have an early lead and are able to pound the ball on the ground.

Yeah, and how do they get that lead? By throwing the _)(*&)(* ball.

But now? We are too worried about running it.

70% runs on first down. That leaves a lot of second and predictable when you get a ton of 0-2 yard runs.

And how many times has Ben read blitz and gotten rid of it, only for his WR to let him down and not read the same coverage?

It's happened at least five times since he's been back.

BradshawsHairdresser
11-18-2010, 01:42 PM
70% runs on first down. That leaves a lot of second and predictable when you get a ton of 0-2 yard runs.

Agree. With the personnel we have, we might find it much more effective to pass to set up the run. Clearly, it's not working so well for us the other way around.

Mendy looks to me to be a lot more of a home-run hitter than a grind it out, wear 'em down kind of back. We need to quit trying to make him Jerome Bettis. Get the opposing defense playing pass, and THEN turn him loose.

Crash
11-18-2010, 01:48 PM
They can't play pass as long as we continue to have Spaeth and Johnson on the field.

That's why I want three wide and Miller as the base offense. You don't know what's coming. It's the best formation in football IMO.

SteelTorch
11-18-2010, 02:12 PM
Wait, so our offense is still struggling, even with Ben back???

Who on earth would have seen that coming?? :stirpot

feltdizz
11-18-2010, 02:19 PM
The title of this article is misleading and was written purely for sensationalistic purposes.

Pretending or alluding to Big Ben’s return as not boosting the team is disingenuous when he’s playing behind a line decimated by injuries (guys starting who wouldn’t catch a whiff of the field on other teams) and a defense missing one of their top 2 players at any position as well as another starting DE.

Ben isn’t responsible for Gay not being able to cover a rookie tight end or make tackles or BMac not really covering anyone ever.

When they face a quality QB; it’s unrealistic to expect Ben to win in a shoot out behind this line. The D has to find a way to slow teams down and not let them get back in a game if they have a nice lead.

This week we need to see the Steelers throttle the raiders. Continue to score. I don’t care if it gets oout of hand – continue to score and practice putting the ball in when it’s first and goal.

we were up 27 to 7 and Ben threw an INT in the Cincy game... now I'm not saying it will happen everytime but um...

last time we played the Raiders we had control of the game and Ben threw into double coverage in the endzone and it gave them momentum.

I'm not saying Ben can't throw... but it sure seems like Ben loses precision on pases once we have a game in hand.

Crash
11-18-2010, 02:33 PM
we were up 27 to 7 and Ben threw an INT in the Cincy game...

Um, no, we were up 27 to 14 and Ben threw an INT in the Cincy game.

El throws a TD to put us up 27-7, the great defense gives it right back.


last time we played the Raiders we had control of the game and Ben threw into double coverage in the endzone and it gave them momentum.

Yeah that's it. They couldn't have lost that game when our defense traded 4th quarter scores with the worst offense in football. Ben's first half pick did it. The Raiders had such momentum after that pick they had 6 points in 45 minutes.

hawaiiansteel
11-18-2010, 02:40 PM
Yeah that's it. They couldn't have lost that game when our defense traded 4th quarter scores with the worst offense in football. Ben's first half pick did it. The Raiders had such momentum after that pick they had 6 points in 45 minutes.


Ben's pick didn't help matters but our defense was equally responsible for that loss to the Raiders...we made Bruce Gradkowski look like a friggen All-Pro QB in that game.

feltdizz
11-18-2010, 02:44 PM
[quote]we were up 27 to 7 and Ben threw an INT in the Cincy game...

Um, no, we were up 27 to 14 and Ben threw an INT in the Cincy game.

El throws a TD to put us up 27-7, the great defense gives it right back.


last time we played the Raiders we had control of the game and Ben threw into double coverage in the endzone and it gave them momentum.

Yeah that's it. They couldn't have lost that game when our defense traded 4th quarter scores with the worst offense in football. Ben's first half pick did it.[/quote:3btuzpe6]

Ok.. my bad. We were up 27 to 14 and Ben threw a pick. :roll:


I'm not giving the D a pass... I really think regardless of the score once a team goes pass happy they easily march down the field on us.

My point is the whole.. keep throwing it because we need more points. How many times has that worked the last 4 to 5 years? How many games have we seen our O execute when up by 10+ points. Damn near every time we get a 10+ point lead our execution goes out the window... Ben IS NOT precise when he was a 10+ point lead..

He is precise when the game is close or we are behind... but with a 10+ lead he gets just like our D. Inconsistent.

feltdizz
11-18-2010, 02:46 PM
Yeah that's it. They couldn't have lost that game when our defense traded 4th quarter scores with the worst offense in football. Ben's first half pick did it. The Raiders had such momentum after that pick they had 6 points in 45 minutes.


Ben's pick didn't help matters but our defense was equally responsible for that loss to the Raiders...we made Bruce Gradkowski look like a friggen All-Pro QB in that game.

exactly.. I'm the last one to give the D a pass....

but people can't talk about throwing with the lead and ignore the INT's we have had over the years when we were winning and had momentum.

Crash
11-18-2010, 02:52 PM
But how many picks were Ben's fault though? Miller dropped one pick in KC, and the other pick after that he was hit as he was throwing to a wide open Ward in the end-zone.

Ben threw SIX PASSES in the second half in Cincy and the defense still almost pissed away the lead.

feltdizz
11-18-2010, 02:57 PM
But how many picks were Ben's fault though? Miller dropped one pick in KC, and the other pick after that he was hit as he was throwing to a wide open Ward in the end-zone.

Ben threw SIX PASSES in the second half in Cincy and the defense still almost pissed away the lead.

Doesn't matter... I'm not saying Ben is responsible for every INT... but when you throw the ball 3 things can happen and 2 aren't good.

Ben threw 6 passes and one was an INT... what is your point?

Crash
11-18-2010, 03:02 PM
The point is they played that second half your way. Run the ball, impose your will, Stiller Football, Ride the Bus, Yoi, Hmm Ha, Okle Dokle.

And the defense still sucked a$s.

birtikidis
11-18-2010, 04:03 PM
How many games did Cowher lose with a 11+ lead? did he keep throwing the ball in those situations? Nope, and guess what, with Korkie, Tomczak, Graham, and all the other losers at qb.. the ENTIRE WORLD knew we were gonna run the ball. But, then of course, we had a better offensive line then.. See the correlation?

feltdizz
11-18-2010, 04:06 PM
The point is they played that second half your way. Run the ball, impose your will, Stiller Football, Ride the Bus, Yoi, Hmm Ha, Okle Dokle.

And the defense still sucked a$s.

:Agree

I'm was only pointing out that passing doesn't fix the problem.

whether we run or pass doesn't matter... when the other team goes pass pass pass we are in trouble.

feltdizz
11-18-2010, 04:07 PM
How many games did Cowher lose with a 11+ lead? did he keep throwing the ball in those situations? Nope, and guess what, with Korkie, Tomczak, Graham, and all the other losers at qb.. the ENTIRE WORLD knew we were gonna run the ball. But, then of course, we had a better offensive line then.. See the correlation?

we had BETTIS too.... big difference.

and we didn't win any SB's until we got Ben... the problem is paying Ben 100 mill and the LB's, and Troy big money puts a limit on the big money for retaining or finding good OL.

Crash
11-18-2010, 04:10 PM
How many games did Cowher lose with a 11+ lead?

How many *11* point leads did he have though? That's a stupid subjective stat. Because when you have a lead of 11+? You usually have a 13 or 14 point lead as a whole.

Cowher's teams blew plenty of 10 point leads, including two playoff games. To me that's a more realistic barometer.

SteelCzar76
11-18-2010, 04:22 PM
Going back to his collegiate days Roethlisberger has never been and an exceptionally accurate QB with hardly any grasp of anticipation. (ie: hitting receivers where they will be as opposed to where they are when he initially gets 'eyes on' them)

He's got the physical talent to make some great throws at times,...but again,.. his natural state is one of unpolished inconsistency, recklessness and chaos.

Meaning,..though he's talented to a degree,..because of his aforementioned natural state, if given enough attempts and or too much freedom he will make poor decisions and throws more often than he will exceptional ones. Balance is good for any offense,..especially more so in our case because of this.

I know that many of the Nation love the guy,...but it's time for everyone to admit that in terms of playing the QB position as an elite professional,...he is lacking.

Why ? because 7YEARS into his career he is still attempting to play it as a giant 8th grader in a pick up game on a field in the midwest with his buddies.

Yea,..sometimes that's "exciting" for some. And perhaps it makes him (Roethlisberger) an almost heroic figure to the everyman small town guy whom really wasn't very good at football in a sense that they feel as though they might of had some kind of a shot ? But i think such play ultimately hinders an offensive unit from reaching it's full potential.

Am i saying a team cannot win with this type of QB ? Certainly not,..but you must give them a great deal of help on both sides of the ball to do so. (And this organization has proved as much.) As they cannot be depended upon to put a team on their backs.


Bottom line for me is that i think it's far more beneficial to an organization to not only have a QB with physical ability, but more importantly one who's an intelligent, accurate, consistent and confident passionate leader, that lives in the film room and is the first to and last to leave practice.

But what do i know,....


"Crash you may now go Nackin Futz in T minus 10, 9, 8, 7,6,......" :lol:

birtikidis
11-18-2010, 04:34 PM
How many games did Cowher lose with a 11+ lead? did he keep throwing the ball in those situations? Nope, and guess what, with Korkie, Tomczak, Graham, and all the other losers at qb.. the ENTIRE WORLD knew we were gonna run the ball. But, then of course, we had a better offensive line then.. See the correlation?

we had BETTIS too.... big difference.

and we didn't win any SB's until we got Ben... the problem is paying Ben 100 mill and the LB's, and Troy big money puts a limit on the big money for retaining or finding good OL.
My point is that even though we didn't have an amazing pass attack, we had a great ground game with a great offensive line. Everyone who is yammering for a pass happy attack, needs to realize that in order to win, you really have to be balanced.
I agree with the big money point (as it pertains to Ben and all), but you have to pay those guys.
and crash, you're point about it being a meaningless stat.. you have to be kidding me. with Korkie and all we weren't world beaters dropping points nonstop. we won those games because we were able to control the line of scrimmage ON BOTH SIDES OF THE BALL, which is something we haven't been able to do the last two years. I agree with you about DL's scheme at this point. If Bmac is so terrible that he can't cover a guy in bump and run occassionally, he needs to be gone. you can't give a guy like Brees, Brady and Manning one look the entire game (let alone season) and expect to beat those guys. Right now, every team in the NFL knows that the quick out, slant and comeback routes are there.

Crash
11-18-2010, 04:36 PM
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.............

All the film study in the world won't make the OL block better on 3rd and longs, change our 70% runs on first down, nor the inability to run when we have Spaeth and Johnson on the field.

Peyton Manning is the alleged film room junkie (I find that very hard to believe when he's filming 10 commercials a year every off season).

He still sucks in the playoffs.

BURGH86STEEL
11-18-2010, 04:41 PM
Going back to his collegiate days Roethlisberger has never been and an exceptionally accurate QB with hardly any grasp of anticipation. (ie: hitting receivers where they will be as opposed to where they are when he initially gets 'eyes on' them)

He's got the physical talent to make some great throws at times,...but again,.. his natural state is one of unpolished inconsistency, recklessness and chaos.

Meaning,..though he's talented to a degree,..because of his aforementioned natural state, if given enough attempts and or too much freedom he will make poor decisions and throws more often than he will exceptional ones. Balance is good for any offense,..especially more so in our case because of this.

I know that many of the Nation love the guy,...but it's time for everyone to admit that in terms of playing the QB position as an elite professional,...he is lacking.

Why ? because 7YEARS into his career he is still attempting to play it as a giant 8th grader in a pick up game on a field in the midwest with his buddies.

Yea,..sometimes that's "exciting" for some. And perhaps it makes him (Roethlisberger) an almost heroic figure to the everyman small town guy whom really wasn't very good at football in a sense that they feel as though they might of had some kind of a shot ? But i think such play ultimately hinders an offensive unit from reaching it's full potential.

Am i saying a team cannot win with this type of QB ? Certainly not,..but you must give them a great deal of help on both sides of the ball to do so. (And this organization has proved as much.) As they cannot be depended upon to put a team on their backs.


Bottom line for me is that i think it's far more beneficial to an organization to not only have a QB with physical ability, but more importantly one who's an intelligent, accurate, consistent and confident passionate leader, that lives in the film room and is the first to and last to leave practice.

But what do i know,....


"Crash you may now go Nackin Futz in T minus 10, 9, 8, 7,6,......" :lol:

I agree. He's not evolved into the type of player he was expected to evolve into after his early success.

No one wants to admit it or say it but the offense struggles because the QB struggles with consistency more often then not. Fans would rather place the blame on the OC, Oline, and anywhere else. It will take for a chance in OC's for fans to come to that realization.

Crash
11-18-2010, 04:47 PM
Just so we are clear here, Ben hasn't evolved as a player after early success even though he's had:

32 TD passes in 2007 (Team record) in his 4th season.

Solid playoff run in 2008, including an 88 yard drive to win a Super Bowl in his 5th season.

26 TD passes and 4300 yards (Another team record) in 15 games in 2009 in his 6th season?

What exactly do you people want from Ben in terms of numbers, if the above numbers aren't good enough?

Crash
11-18-2010, 04:51 PM
and crash, you're point about it being a meaningless stat.

How many 11 point leads has Cowher's teams had?

Most teams don't blow 13-14 point leads either.

I'm sorry, but a 10 point lead is more realistic. And Cowher's teams blew those.

birtikidis
11-18-2010, 04:56 PM
and crash, you're point about it being a meaningless stat.

How many 11 point leads has Cowher's teams had?

Most teams don't blow 13-14 point leads either.

I'm sorry, but a 10 point lead is more realistic. And Cowher's teams blew those.
You know, if you jsut addressed the F**king point rather than changing it to fit your needs, less people would be annoyed by you.

Crash
11-18-2010, 05:01 PM
and crash, you're point about it being a meaningless stat.

How many 11 point leads has Cowher's teams had?

Most teams don't blow 13-14 point leads either.

I'm sorry, but a 10 point lead is more realistic. And Cowher's teams blew those.
You know, if you jsut addressed the F**king point rather than changing it to fit your needs, less people would be annoyed by you.

The point is simple. How many 11 point leads has Cowher's teams had?

When you are up 7-0? Score a TD again? That's 14-0. Not 11-0.

But somehow it's scaled down to a 11+ lead.

If anything the insistence of Cowher nut huggers to use 11+ instead of 10+ (Because Cowher's teams have blown 10 point leads) proves where the agenda lies.

Oh wonderful, Cowher held a 11+ lead against a garbage team in November.

So we'll ignore a 13-3 lead his team blew in an AFC title game at home.

:tt1

birtikidis
11-18-2010, 05:02 PM
the reason they use 11 numbnuts is because it means if we score more than 10 points we rarely lost.

Crash
11-18-2010, 05:06 PM
the reason they use 11 numbnuts is because it means if we score more than 10 points we rarely lost.

And you can say that about every good team in the league, no?

No, the reason they use 11 is it hides the number of leads they blew when they were up 10.

SteelCzar76
11-18-2010, 05:10 PM
Just so we are clear here, Ben hasn't evolved as a player after early success even though he's had:

32 TD passes in 2007 (Team record).

Solid playoff run in 2008, including an 88 yard drive to win a Super Bowl.

26 TD passes and 4300 yards (Another team record) in 15 games in 2009?

What exactly do you people want from Ben in terms of numbers, if the above numbers aren't good enough?

As a team our offensive passing rankings since 2005 are,..

2005= 24 ( 9th scoring)
2006= 9 (12th scoring)
2007= 22 (9th scoring)
2008= 17 (20th scoring)
2009= 24 (12th scoring)
2010= 22 (16th scoring)

Perhaps it's just me,...but this does not indicate to me that Roethlisberger is an elite quality QB amongst his peers. Again it doesn't mean that we cannot win as a franchise,..but it does say to me that that Roethliberger and the offense are not the strength of the team. They are both average at their very best IMO.

Crash
11-18-2010, 05:14 PM
Um...we were not the 24th ranked passing team last season.

And your answer to my question, when evaluating a PLAYER, is to mention a team ranking?

Makes sense.

SteelCzar76
11-18-2010, 05:45 PM
Um...we were not the 24th ranked passing team last season.

And your answer to my question, when evaluating a PLAYER, is to mention a team ranking?

Makes sense.

Correction,..9th in passing in 09 (12th scoring) And yet this does not change the FACT that again,... Roethlisberger is not an elite professional QB amongst his peers and certainly not the "savior" of this Franchise. :lol:

Crash
11-18-2010, 05:47 PM
Roethlisberger is not an elite professional QB amongst his peers and certainly not the "savior" of this Franchise. :lol:

So who do you think's better than Ben?

Rank 'em.

birtikidis
11-18-2010, 07:16 PM
Don't try to argue with him. Crash believes that there is a worldwide conspiracy that makes facts up years in advance in order to just contradict him.

Crash
11-18-2010, 07:22 PM
Don't try to argue with him. Crash believes that there is a worldwide conspiracy that makes facts up years in advance in order to just contradict him.

The only facts that are made up are by moron Cowher suppoters who have to dream up the 11+ logic because Cowher's teams blew 10 point leads, including two in the playoffs.

I could care less that Cowher's teams can run up the score against garbage clubs.

SteelCzar76
11-18-2010, 07:29 PM
Roethlisberger is not an elite professional QB amongst his peers and certainly not the "savior" of this Franchise. :lol:

So who do you think's better than Ben?

Rank 'em.


Just based simply upon how they measure up against their peers in terms of not only productivity, but also the aforementioned qualities such as accuracy, consistency, intelligence and leadership,...well IMO,......

1) Tom Brady

2) Peyton Manning

3) Philip Rivers

4) Drew Brees

5) Michael Vick (he's finally turned the corner)

6) Aaron Rodgers

7) Matt Ryan

8) Sam Bradford

Everyone after this point are just varying degrees of mediocre or below average. Some with sparks of exceptional play but none that i would put on the field before these 8 Qb's.

Though i would like to say shouts out to Troy Smith, ( whom i believe,.. as i said when he was drafted,.. that height aside he had the ability as a passer to be very successful at league level) Mark Sanchez, Colt McCoy and Matt Stafford. All of whom i believe have what it takes to grow into elite QB's with enough dedication to their craft.

Crash
11-18-2010, 07:49 PM
Rodgers? What's he won?

Ryan? What's he won?

Brees? You want to talk inconsistent? Look at his early numbers. Two years ago his Saints team was in last place.

Rivers? What's he won? Plays in a crap divison and doesn't win anything.

Bradford? Mike Vick? Spare me.

Peyton is consistent also. Consistent at sucking chode in the playoffs.

You look at everything? Brady is #1, Ben is #2.

I look at wins, rings, and clutch play.

Peyton proved how clutch he wasn't last season. The defining moment of his career, and in typical Peyton fashion he gagged.

Ben in the same spot? Went 88 yards in two minutes.

Crash
11-18-2010, 07:58 PM
Ironically an ESPN writer just posted this:

This same mindset can be applied to Peyton Manning's 2010 season. He has been the NFL MVP frontrunner in most people's minds (including mine) for many weeks, but after taking a closer look at the game tapes and metrics it starts to become clear that No. 18 is having one of his worst seasons in recent memory.

SteelCzar76
11-18-2010, 07:58 PM
I look at wins, rings, and clutch play.

I thought Team performance did not matter to you in regards to evaluating a player ?


when evaluating a PLAYER, is to mention a team ranking?

Makes sense.

:lol:

birtikidis
11-18-2010, 08:09 PM
Roethlisberger is not an elite professional QB amongst his peers and certainly not the "savior" of this Franchise. :lol:

So who do you think's better than Ben?

Rank 'em.


Just based simply upon how they measure up against their peers in terms of not only productivity, but also the aforementioned qualities such as accuracy, consistency, intelligence and leadership,...well IMO,......

1) Tom Brady

2) Peyton Manning

3) Philip Rivers

4) Drew Brees

5) Michael Vick (he's finally turned the corner)

6) Aaron Rodgers

7) Matt Ryan

8) Sam Bradford

Everyone after this point are just varying degrees of mediocre or below average. Some with sparks of exceptional play but none that i would put on the field before these 8 Qb's.

Though i would like to say shouts out to Troy Smith, ( whom i believe,.. as i said when he was drafted,.. that height aside he had the ability as a passer to be very successful at league level) Mark Sanchez, Colt McCoy and Matt Stafford. All of whom i believe have what it takes to grow into elite QB's with enough dedication to their craft.
You lost me with Vick, Ryan and Bradford.
the others you could make an arguement for, but those three are not great, hell they're not even good players.

Crash
11-18-2010, 08:16 PM
I thought Team performance did not matter to you in regards to evaluating a player ?

You can't look at passing rankings.

You smashmouth idiots need to make a choice: Do you want to run the ball or not?

If the answer is yes? You can't hold Ben responsible when his passing attempts are limited because we run the ball on 70% of first downs, or like when Cowher after Ben would pass them to a lead then takes the air out of the ball.

SteelCzar76
11-18-2010, 08:33 PM
Roethlisberger is not an elite professional QB amongst his peers and certainly not the "savior" of this Franchise. :lol:

So who do you think's better than Ben?

Rank 'em.


Just based simply upon how they measure up against their peers in terms of not only productivity, but also the aforementioned qualities such as accuracy, consistency, intelligence and leadership,...well IMO,......

1) Tom Brady

2) Peyton Manning

3) Philip Rivers

4) Drew Brees

5) Michael Vick (he's finally turned the corner)

6) Aaron Rodgers

7) Matt Ryan

8) Sam Bradford

Everyone after this point are just varying degrees of mediocre or below average. Some with sparks of exceptional play but none that i would put on the field before these 8 Qb's.

Though i would like to say shouts out to Troy Smith, ( whom i believe,.. as i said when he was drafted,.. that height aside he had the ability as a passer to be very successful at league level) Mark Sanchez, Colt McCoy and Matt Stafford. All of whom i believe have what it takes to grow into elite QB's with enough dedication to their craft.
You lost me with Vick, Ryan and Bradford.
the others you could make an arguement for, but those three are not great, hell they're not even good players.

I feel you Birt. But let's just watch the way the rest of the season plays out for Vick and Ryan. I truely believe they will win you over even if Vick's play thus far as a starter for Philly has not. :Cheers

As far as Bradfored the kid's raw ability is considerable, but more importantly all that he is concerned with is becoming even better.

SteelCzar76
11-18-2010, 08:41 PM
I thought Team performance did not matter to you in regards to evaluating a player ?

You can't look at passing rankings.

You smashmouth idiots need to make a choice: Do you want to run the ball or not?

If the answer is yes? You can't hold Ben responsible when his passing attempts are limited because we run the ball on 70% of first downs, or like when Cowher after Ben would pass them to a lead then takes the air out of the ball.


First of all Crash the only idiocy here would be on the part of the party calling strangers idiots via an internet forum if they do not agree that "his favowit fooseball pwaya is not tha bestest of allllll time !" until said party hyperventilates and crashes face first upon their race car bed. :lol:

Secondly,..Coach Cowher put the proverbial cuffs on Roethlisberger after we had leads using the ground game to protect Roethliberger himself and the team from the almost inevitable pick, picks and or pick sixes that are sure to rear their heads if he (Roethlisberger) is given enough attempts.

Crash
11-18-2010, 09:10 PM
Ground game to get leads? When? Not in 2004, not in 2005, not in the 2005 playoffs that's for sure.

Pass early, run late. That's Cowher and Ben's first two years.

Ben had 15 TD passes as a starter in 2004. 11 were in the first half.

Ben had 17 TD passes as a starter in 2005. 11 were in the first half.

In the first two years with Cowher Ben threw 80 passes less, in the second half than he did in the first half.

Why? They passed to get leads and then take the air out of the ball in the final 30 minutes.

grotonsteel
11-18-2010, 09:18 PM
Roethlisberger is not an elite professional QB amongst his peers and certainly not the "savior" of this Franchise. :lol:

So who do you think's better than Ben?

Rank 'em.


Just based simply upon how they measure up against their peers in terms of not only productivity, but also the aforementioned qualities such as accuracy, consistency, intelligence and leadership,...well IMO,......

1) Tom Brady

2) Peyton Manning

3) Philip Rivers

4) Drew Brees

5) Michael Vick (he's finally turned the corner)

6) Aaron Rodgers

7) Matt Ryan

8) Sam Bradford

Everyone after this point are just varying degrees of mediocre or below average. Some with sparks of exceptional play but none that i would put on the field before these 8 Qb's.

Though i would like to say shouts out to Troy Smith, ( whom i believe,.. as i said when he was drafted,.. that height aside he had the ability as a passer to be very successful at league level) Mark Sanchez, Colt McCoy and Matt Stafford. All of whom i believe have what it takes to grow into elite QB's with enough dedication to their craft.


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

No USC QB in there???? Come on no Palmer..you gotta be kidding me....

Aaron Rodgers better than Ben.....LMFAO....

Flasteel
11-18-2010, 09:32 PM
Roethlisberger is not an elite professional QB amongst his peers and certainly not the "savior" of this Franchise. :lol:

So who do you think's better than Ben?

Rank 'em.


Just based simply upon how they measure up against their peers in terms of not only productivity, but also the aforementioned qualities such as accuracy, consistency, intelligence and leadership,...well IMO,......

1) Tom Brady

2) Peyton Manning

3) Philip Rivers

4) Drew Brees

5) Michael Vick (he's finally turned the corner)

6) Aaron Rodgers

7) Matt Ryan

8) Sam Bradford

Everyone after this point are just varying degrees of mediocre or below average. Some with sparks of exceptional play but none that i would put on the field before these 8 Qb's.

Though i would like to say shouts out to Troy Smith, ( whom i believe,.. as i said when he was drafted,.. that height aside he had the ability as a passer to be very successful at league level) Mark Sanchez, Colt McCoy and Matt Stafford. All of whom i believe have what it takes to grow into elite QB's with enough dedication to their craft.


So, all of these cats are better than Ben and number 8 is your little mendoza line. You're trying to tell us that Ben is on the fringe of being mediocre to below average?

Really??

Not one credible football analyst in America would agree with you.

I certainly don't.

SteelTorch
11-18-2010, 09:51 PM
So, all of these cats are better than Ben and number 8 is your little mendoza line. You're trying to tell us that Ben is on the fringe of being mediocre to below average?

Really??

Not one credible football analyst in America would agree with you.

I certainly don't.
He's a Ben hater. Not much hope for reason there. :wink:

birtikidis
11-18-2010, 09:58 PM
Roethlisberger is not an elite professional QB amongst his peers and certainly not the "savior" of this Franchise. :lol:

So who do you think's better than Ben?

Rank 'em.


Just based simply upon how they measure up against their peers in terms of not only productivity, but also the aforementioned qualities such as accuracy, consistency, intelligence and leadership,...well IMO,......

1) Tom Brady

2) Peyton Manning

3) Philip Rivers

4) Drew Brees

5) Michael Vick (he's finally turned the corner)

6) Aaron Rodgers

7) Matt Ryan

8) Sam Bradford

Everyone after this point are just varying degrees of mediocre or below average. Some with sparks of exceptional play but none that i would put on the field before these 8 Qb's.

Though i would like to say shouts out to Troy Smith, ( whom i believe,.. as i said when he was drafted,.. that height aside he had the ability as a passer to be very successful at league level) Mark Sanchez, Colt McCoy and Matt Stafford. All of whom i believe have what it takes to grow into elite QB's with enough dedication to their craft.
You lost me with Vick, Ryan and Bradford.
the others you could make an arguement for, but those three are not great, hell they're not even good players.

I feel you Birt. But let's just watch the way the rest of the season plays out for Vick and Ryan. I truely believe they will win you over even if Vick's play thus far as a starter for Philly has not. :Cheers

As far as Bradfored the kid's raw ability is considerable, but more importantly all that he is concerned with is becoming even better.
I'll never have an ounce of respect for Vick. And not because he's a criminal. I though he was the most overrated player in the NFL prior to his arrest, and I feel that he's still very overrated. He's garbage. Don't tell me how great he was on Monday.. I don't care. lol
Bradford, will be a great football player, if he stays healthy. But i feel like he's gonna be a stat machine and not much else. we'll see.

feltdizz
11-18-2010, 10:27 PM
Only a FOOL would say Vick is over rated or sucks this year. In 6 games...

1,350 passing yards
8.8 avg
11TD's
0 INT's
115.1 rating
341 rushing yards
7.8 avg.

and when you watch him it's even crazier.... it's like EA sports

Crash
11-18-2010, 10:32 PM
Only a FOOL would say Vick is over rated or sucks this year. In 6 games...

1,350 passing yards
8.8 avg
11TD's
0 INT's
115.1 rating
341 rushing yards
7.8 avg.

and when you watch him it's even crazier.... it's like EA sports

What's amazing is, Vick runs around and people love it.

Ben scrambles to make plays with his arm and people call him dumb and a sandlot player.

feltdizz
11-18-2010, 10:37 PM
So, all of these cats are better than Ben and number 8 is your little mendoza line. You're trying to tell us that Ben is on the fringe of being mediocre to below average?

Really??

Not one credible football analyst in America would agree with you.

I certainly don't.
He's a Ben hater. Not much hope for reason there. :wink:

I am perceived as a Ben hater but damn... even I think Czar is delusional with his assessment of Ben. Now I do think Ben is careless when we have 10+ leads but umm...

Vick is not better than Ben as a QB.. definitely a better athlete but he has only had one great season as a passer.

Matt Ryan? Hell no...

Aaron Rodgers is a smaller Ben without the big comeback wins. Takes a ton of sacks too...

feltdizz
11-18-2010, 10:41 PM
Only a FOOL would say Vick is over rated or sucks this year. In 6 games...

1,350 passing yards
8.8 avg
11TD's
0 INT's
115.1 rating
341 rushing yards
7.8 avg.

and when you watch him it's even crazier.... it's like EA sports

What's amazing is, Vick runs around and people love it.

Ben scrambles to make plays with his arm and people call him dumb and a sandlot player.

Vick runs past defenses... he is one of the fastest players in the league. If Ben ran that fast he would be called baby Jesus.

and why is Vick an MVP candidate this year? Because he is throwing TD's and not running after missing the first read.

Crash
11-18-2010, 10:45 PM
Vick runs past defenses... he is one of the fastest players in the league. If Ben ran that fast he would be called baby Jesus.

If Ben ran that fast Steve Young would still be saying he needs to stay in the pocket.

Why don't they treat guys like Vick and Vince Young the same?

feltdizz
11-18-2010, 10:56 PM
Why don't they treat guys like Vick and Vince Young the same?

because Vince throws lollipops and Vick throws darts...

and Vick is twice as fast.

birtikidis
11-19-2010, 12:03 AM
Only a FOOL would say Vick is over rated or sucks this year. In 6 games...

1,350 passing yards
8.8 avg
11TD's
0 INT's
115.1 rating
341 rushing yards
7.8 avg.

and when you watch him it's even crazier.... it's like EA sports
Hey, he's having a great season, no doubt about it.. in the what.. 6 games he's played in or so. take out the blowout against the skins though and he doesn't look that great. but then washington blows. it takes more than 6 games for me to rank a player in the top ten in the league. he's just like any other flavor of the week, give teams a little film to study and he becomes average again. Hell even Kolb was lighting people up at one point.
of course, when you play washington (twice), detroit and Jacksonville you should have a ton of yards.

NJ-STEELER
11-19-2010, 12:49 AM
I thought Team performance did not matter to you in regards to evaluating a player ?

You can't look at passing rankings.

You smashmouth idiots need to make a choice: Do you want to run the ball or not?

If the answer is yes? You can't hold Ben responsible when his passing attempts are limited because we run the ball on 70% of first downs, or like when Cowher after Ben would pass them to a lead then takes the air out of the ball.



Secondly,..Coach Cowher put the proverbial cuffs on Roethlisberger after we had leads using the ground game to protect Roethliberger himself and the team from the almost inevitable pick, picks and or pick sixes that are sure to rear their heads if he (Roethlisberger) is given enough attempts.

oh it was his penchant for throwing INTs rather then being a QB in his first 2 years?? jeez :roll:

maybe thats why SD had your #3 QB on that list riding the bench for 2 years. learning the offense so he wouldn't throw inevitable INTS


another guy in your 'elite' list allowed 50+ sacks. how is that getting rid of the ball early...what you complain about big ben. should have caught his game vs. the jets this year. pumping all game long and taking time too much time to deliver the ball. maybe he didn't study a 3-4 zone blitzing team like he should have. or maybe that defensive type team is tough on a QB. something ben has faced at least twice a year in his division.

i love how people skew stats to bring out their hate for a player

Steel Life
11-19-2010, 01:40 AM
First...Ben not elite? Really? All he's done is win consistently, put up record numbers for the team & won one more SB than Manning & just one less than Brady...all with less talented weapons & a sieve-like O-Line. Keep your Rivers & "Matty Ice"...I'll stick with Ben, win more games & have more fun doing it.

Second, can we not over-react to the NE game...please! Think about it...3 of 5 starters out on the offensive line (where cohesion is the most critical element), 2 starters out on the defensive line, & Hines gets knocked out of the game early - telll me how many teams could play well under those conditions?!? Considering the O-Line situation, anyone who thought we would be able to run consistently against NE was deluding themselves & that protecting Ben would be tough as NE would surely see how New Orleans attacked our O-line & do the same...except it would be easier because they were going against 3rd stringers basically.

As for Ben...yeah he didn't have the best game, but the offensive gameplan was atrocious & still he kept that game in NE's rearview mirror until the half-way point of the 4th qtr. Then he did what franchise QB's do...he took the heat off his OL & WRs by taking the blame for the loss - as he usually does. ARE couldn't catch a cold in the 1st half, there were several dropped passes in the endzone & a pick-6 off a deflection...all this with the Pats pinning their ears back & not worrying about the run. What amazes me about Arians gameplan is the absolute lack of flexibility he continues to show...he seems convinced that his scheme will work despite all evidence to the contrary. For the life of me, I'll never understand why Arians didn't dial up the hurry-up O that Ben excells at earlier or more often. At the very least it would helped with the dicey O-Line protection, & certainly would've kept NE off-balance - which is what they do to teams like ours. I've said it before, & I'll say it again - Ben makes Arians look good with the way he keeps plays alive with his improvisation. And another thing, last time I checked, Ben wasn't our 3rd DB.

Lastly, there was something that Collinsworth said during the telecast that should've gotten more attention with the whole "Brady kicks our butts" chorus that was going on...what he said was that our defensive scheme just doesn't match up well against the dink & dunk types, as we were more of a "come on & fight me!" type of D that wasn't situated for success against offenses like NE's. And you know what...that happens in sports, but it doesn't mean our D is fundementally flawed. Certain players sure (Gay for example) but judging by the ranking of the defense year after year, I'd say that the defenisve philosophy is sound, despite lapses at times.

grotonsteel
11-19-2010, 10:59 AM
another guy in your 'elite' list allowed 50+ sacks. how is that getting rid of the ball early...what you complain about big ben. should have caught his game vs. the jets this year. pumping all game long and taking time too much time to deliver the ball. maybe he didn't study a 3-4 zone blitzing team like he should have. or maybe that defensive type team is tough on a QB. something ben has faced at least twice a year in his division.

i love how people skew stats to bring out their hate for a player

:Agree

Again why is Aaron Rodgers elite without winning anything and Ben is mediocre to below average... :roll:

I am not sure if Steelcrazy has ever watched a single packers game..

birtikidis
11-19-2010, 11:16 AM
another guy in your 'elite' list allowed 50+ sacks. how is that getting rid of the ball early...what you complain about big ben. should have caught his game vs. the jets this year. pumping all game long and taking time too much time to deliver the ball. maybe he didn't study a 3-4 zone blitzing team like he should have. or maybe that defensive type team is tough on a QB. something ben has faced at least twice a year in his division.

i love how people skew stats to bring out their hate for a player

:Agree

Again why is Aaron Rodgers elite without winning anything and Ben is mediocre to below average... :roll:

I am not sure if Steelcrazy has ever watched a single packers game..
It's because Fantasy Football has become to many people "real football". they think that stats are what matters and the better they look the better you are. Rodgers is a stat machine. Is he an elite qb? no, not yet. He may become one, but I don't know. In the real world, what makes a qb great is winning consistently. It's why I always considered Bradshaw to be one of the best of all time (not just HOF best, but like top 2-3). sure he threw picks and had some bad years, but the guy was a winner.

feltdizz
11-19-2010, 01:59 PM
Only a FOOL would say Vick is over rated or sucks this year. In 6 games...

1,350 passing yards
8.8 avg
11TD's
0 INT's
115.1 rating
341 rushing yards
7.8 avg.

and when you watch him it's even crazier.... it's like EA sports
Hey, he's having a great season, no doubt about it.. in the what.. 6 games he's played in or so. take out the blowout against the skins though and he doesn't look that great. but then washington blows. it takes more than 6 games for me to rank a player in the top ten in the league. he's just like any other flavor of the week, give teams a little film to study and he becomes average again. Hell even Kolb was lighting people up at one point.
of course, when you play washington (twice), detroit and Jacksonville you should have a ton of yards.

never said top 10... THIS YEAR he is a beast thus far and anyone who refuses to admit it is disrespecting the game of football.

why do we always have to take out the good games on here?

birtikidis
11-19-2010, 02:14 PM
Only a FOOL would say Vick is over rated or sucks this year. In 6 games...

1,350 passing yards
8.8 avg
11TD's
0 INT's
115.1 rating
341 rushing yards
7.8 avg.

and when you watch him it's even crazier.... it's like EA sports
Hey, he's having a great season, no doubt about it.. in the what.. 6 games he's played in or so. take out the blowout against the skins though and he doesn't look that great. but then washington blows. it takes more than 6 games for me to rank a player in the top ten in the league. he's just like any other flavor of the week, give teams a little film to study and he becomes average again. Hell even Kolb was lighting people up at one point.
of course, when you play washington (twice), detroit and Jacksonville you should have a ton of yards.

never said top 10... THIS YEAR he is a beast thus far and anyone who refuses to admit it is disrespecting the game of football.

why do we always have to take out the good games on here?
well, he's had 3 good games that are worth noting, and 3 that really, anyone could have done what he did. hell Kolb is doing the exact same thing in the exact same offense (passing wise). He just doesn't impress me. he never has, and he never will.

feltdizz
11-19-2010, 02:22 PM
Only a FOOL would say Vick is over rated or sucks this year. In 6 games...

1,350 passing yards
8.8 avg
11TD's
0 INT's
115.1 rating
341 rushing yards
7.8 avg.

and when you watch him it's even crazier.... it's like EA sports
Hey, he's having a great season, no doubt about it.. in the what.. 6 games he's played in or so. take out the blowout against the skins though and he doesn't look that great. but then washington blows. it takes more than 6 games for me to rank a player in the top ten in the league. he's just like any other flavor of the week, give teams a little film to study and he becomes average again. Hell even Kolb was lighting people up at one point.
of course, when you play washington (twice), detroit and Jacksonville you should have a ton of yards.

never said top 10... THIS YEAR he is a beast thus far and anyone who refuses to admit it is disrespecting the game of football.

why do we always have to take out the good games on here?
well, he's had 3 good games that are worth noting, and 3 that really, anyone could have done what he did. hell Kolb is doing the exact same thing in the exact same offense (passing wise). He just doesn't impress me. he never has, and he never will.

If Ben had 11 TD's and 0 INT's in 6 games we would be splashing on ourselves and talking about replacing Manning and Brady as the best QB in the game right now. :wink:


you are probably the only guy who isn't impressed with Vick this year. I can understand those who hate Vick, and you sound like one of those 8) but as a football fan I don't see how anyone can't be impressed watching him carve up teams. Basically Vick could throw for 600 yards and run for 200 in one game and you would be standing in a corner with arms folded talking about "never" LOL. I'm joking....

It's like watching Barry Sanders with a cannon arm. Drop pass to pass and actually go through all the progressions and then run 20 yards downfield in a flash... then flicks a 50 yard bomb and a 20 yarder on a rope.

I love it! :lol:

hawaiiansteel
11-19-2010, 02:45 PM
Marcia Brady is impressed with Michael Vick...

http://www.pittsburghmagazine.com/Best-of-the-Burgh-Blogs/Pulling-No-Punches/November-2010/dm_101105_nfl_mayne_brady_beiber.jpg


Tom Brady raves about “amazing” Michael Vick

Posted by Michael David Smith on November 16, 2010, 6:32 PM EST


Michael Vick has a big fan in Tom Brady.

Brady, the Patriots’ quarterback, settled in on Monday night to watch the show that Vick put on in leading the Eagles over the Redskins. And Brady said today that he was blown away by what he saw.

“He’s pretty amazing as an athlete,” Brady said on WEEI. “I was watching the pregame and Steve Young said, ‘He’s the greatest weapon at quarterback that there could ever be.’ I totally agree with that. With the way he can move the football and his style of play, and when he throws the ball like he did last night, he’s damn near impossible to stop.”

Saying that Vick is “The greatest weapon at quarterback that there could ever be” seems like hyperbole, and there’s actually a case to be made that Brady had a better game on Sunday night than Vick did on Monday night. But Brady is just like everyone else who watches football in watching Vick last night and coming away amazed.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/20 ... hael-vick/ (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/11/16/tom-brady-raves-about-amazing-michael-vick/)

Crash
11-19-2010, 02:58 PM
Steve Young said, ‘He’s the greatest weapon at quarterback that there could ever be.’

See? That makes no sense to me.

Young BERATED Ben's play, said you can't win SBs playing that way without a #1 defense. And yet here he is defending Vick?

Young would be better off if he just admitted he's jealous of Ben because Ben took a 6-10 team to an AFC title game where as Young didn't win squat until he was surrounded by a great team.

NJ-STEELER
11-19-2010, 03:59 PM
another guy in your 'elite' list allowed 50+ sacks. how is that getting rid of the ball early...what you complain about big ben. should have caught his game vs. the jets this year. pumping all game long and taking time too much time to deliver the ball. maybe he didn't study a 3-4 zone blitzing team like he should have. or maybe that defensive type team is tough on a QB. something ben has faced at least twice a year in his division.

i love how people skew stats to bring out their hate for a player

:Agree

Again why is Aaron Rodgers elite without winning anything and Ben is mediocre to below average... :roll:

I am not sure if Steelcrazy has ever watched a single packers game..

i have no problems saying rodgers is a top young top QB, but to pretned he is almost perfect while ben has all these warts is rediculous.

and like birt said fantasy football geeks are the reasonn why these guys are getting shoved down our throats.

and rivers?? dont want that punk. people didn't like ben and his supposed attitude, but would welcome rivers :roll:

hawaiiansteel
11-19-2010, 04:01 PM
i have no problems saying rodgers is a top young top QB, but to pretned he is almost perfect while ben has all these warts is rediculous.

and like birt said fantasy football geeks are the reasonn why these guys are getting shoved down our throats.

and rivers?? dont want that punk. people didn't like ben and his supposed attitude, but would welcome rivers :roll:



I'll take Ben over Rodgers and Rivers any day of the week, especially on Sundays. :tt2

feltdizz
11-19-2010, 04:19 PM
i have no problems saying rodgers is a top young top QB, but to pretned he is almost perfect while ben has all these warts is rediculous.

and like birt said fantasy football geeks are the reasonn why these guys are getting shoved down our throats.

and rivers?? dont want that punk. people didn't like ben and his supposed attitude, but would welcome rivers :roll:



I'll take Ben over Rodgers and Rivers any day of the week, especially on Sundays. :tt2

Ben is definitely a better competitor and more clutch than Rodgers and Rivers.

I will give Rivers credit though... he is good but his attitude is very b!tchish and is the reason he will never win anything of significance.

Rodgers is good but he doesn't will his team to victory and he usually has 45+ attempts when he puts up outrageous stats.

Rarely do these guys have quality stats with limited attempts.

grotonsteel
11-19-2010, 04:29 PM
[quote="NJ-STEELER":1l42a1uj]

another guy in your 'elite' list allowed 50+ sacks. how is that getting rid of the ball early...what you complain about big ben. should have caught his game vs. the jets this year. pumping all game long and taking time too much time to deliver the ball. maybe he didn't study a 3-4 zone blitzing team like he should have. or maybe that defensive type team is tough on a QB. something ben has faced at least twice a year in his division.

i love how people skew stats to bring out their hate for a player

:Agree

Again why is Aaron Rodgers elite without winning anything and Ben is mediocre to below average... :roll:

I am not sure if Steelcrazy has ever watched a single packers game..

i have no problems saying rodgers is a top young top QB, but to pretned he is almost perfect while ben has all these warts is rediculous.

and like birt said fantasy football geeks are the reasonn why these guys are getting shoved down our throats.

and rivers?? dont want that punk. people didn't like ben and his supposed attitude, but would welcome rivers :roll:[/quote:1l42a1uj]

:Clap

grotonsteel
11-19-2010, 04:33 PM
Steve Young said, ‘He’s the greatest weapon at quarterback that there could ever be.’

See? That makes no sense to me.

Young BERATED Ben's play, said you can't win SBs playing that way without a #1 defense. And yet here he is defending Vick?

Young would be better off if he just admitted he's jealous of Ben because Ben took a 6-10 team to an AFC title game where as Young didn't win squat until he was surrounded by a great team.

Steve Young is Steeler Hater....Screw that guy....he is a complete doofus...i guess those are the side effects of hits he took...

Steve Young babbles because he is jealous of Big Ben. Ben is bigger and better version of Steve Young and thats what pisses him off...

birtikidis
11-19-2010, 04:50 PM
Only a FOOL would say Vick is over rated or sucks this year. In 6 games...

1,350 passing yards
8.8 avg
11TD's
0 INT's
115.1 rating
341 rushing yards
7.8 avg.

and when you watch him it's even crazier.... it's like EA sports
Hey, he's having a great season, no doubt about it.. in the what.. 6 games he's played in or so. take out the blowout against the skins though and he doesn't look that great. but then washington blows. it takes more than 6 games for me to rank a player in the top ten in the league. he's just like any other flavor of the week, give teams a little film to study and he becomes average again. Hell even Kolb was lighting people up at one point.
of course, when you play washington (twice), detroit and Jacksonville you should have a ton of yards.

never said top 10... THIS YEAR he is a beast thus far and anyone who refuses to admit it is disrespecting the game of football.

why do we always have to take out the good games on here?
well, he's had 3 good games that are worth noting, and 3 that really, anyone could have done what he did. hell Kolb is doing the exact same thing in the exact same offense (passing wise). He just doesn't impress me. he never has, and he never will.

If Ben had 11 TD's and 0 INT's in 6 games we would be splashing on ourselves and talking about replacing Manning and Brady as the best QB in the game right now. :wink:


you are probably the only guy who isn't impressed with Vick this year. I can understand those who hate Vick, and you sound like one of those 8) but as a football fan I don't see how anyone can't be impressed watching him carve up teams. Basically Vick could throw for 600 yards and run for 200 in one game and you would be standing in a corner with arms folded talking about "never" LOL. I'm joking....

It's like watching Barry Sanders with a cannon arm. Drop pass to pass and actually go through all the progressions and then run 20 yards downfield in a flash... then flicks a 50 yard bomb and a 20 yarder on a rope.

I love it! :lol:
I cannot stand Vick. the guy has been made out to be a great QB by everyone since the day he was drafted, and since he has done squat. He's had a handful of "great" games and a ton of mediocre, Korkie type games. I'm not impressed.
and you almost made me throw up with the barry sanders comment.

NorthCoast
11-21-2010, 10:22 AM
just seems odd that we drop 8 and guys are WIDE OPEN.

when other teams drop 8 on us... everyone is covered.... it would be nice to see a WR catch a pass 5 yards down field and make someone miss.

We don't have any shakers or movers in our passing game. It's speed and straight lines.

I like what Wallace is doing.... but he was popped something awful underneath, definitely needs to adjust if he wants to play out a full season.

I actually think Brown could be that guy...not El-esque mind you, but sneaky quick.