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View Full Version : Debacle blueprint of things to come?



Oviedo
11-16-2010, 09:18 AM
You can bet your sweet patootie it will be. Any team that has a good to very good QB will be copying what NE did to us on Sunday night.

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/10320/1103639-66.stm

Later in the article, more Jeff Reed whining. Guy is getting to be PITA status...Pain in the A$$. Wouldn't cut him now but wouldn't try to sign him in the off season either

Eich
11-16-2010, 09:24 AM
You can bet your sweet patootie it will be. Any team that has a good to very good QB will be copying what NE did to us on Sunday night.


Sunday night? NE has done this to us multiple times. The Saints did it a few weeks ago. Nothing new was revealed Sunday night. It's been the same story for several years now... The weakness of the Steelers D is defending against the pass.

anger 82&95
11-16-2010, 09:29 AM
Since there didn’t seem to be any discernable adjustments made during the defensive collapse, why wouldn’t teams come in ready to pick the Steelers secondary apart. Hopefully the Raiders don’t have a rookie tight end…

Notleadpoisoned
11-16-2010, 09:41 AM
"The 2006 Vikings finished with the NFL's eighth-best overall defense, but had the unusual distinction of finishing as the top-ranked defense against the run, and the worst-ranked defense against the pass."

So is the problem Tomlin or LeBeau?

Oviedo
11-16-2010, 09:56 AM
"The 2006 Vikings finished with the NFL's eighth-best overall defense, but had the unusual distinction of finishing as the top-ranked defense against the run, and the worst-ranked defense against the pass."

So is the problem Tomlin or LeBeau?

LeBeau runs the defense not Tomlin. This is how statistics can lie. When you sell out to stop the run teams pass more against you which directly effects your defensive stats versus the pass.

Our issue is we can't control what the other teams are doing in the pass game because they are max protecting which nulifies the rush which is what our defense must have to be successful.

Chadman
11-16-2010, 10:09 AM
Chadman doubts it. The Steelers have been picked apart like this before & we still see other teams attempt to play a balanced offense against the Steelers D.

That being said- Chadman's confidence in this team has certainly crashed. They are back to looking clueless at times, old, slow. Not just the Defense- the O too. This is probably what we should have expected as this team transitions from an older team to what must become a younger team. It's quite possible we are now experiencing the results of Bill Cowher's final few years in Pittsburgh where veterans were getting jerseys & rookies were getting shafted. The roster got old, and now Tomlin is in the tricky position where you need to balance the injection of young players with the more rapid decline of older players. Sure, we still see some good games/years out of the older guys, but evolution takes place & as the opposition have gotten younger earlier- and their young players enter their prime- the Steelers 'younger brigade' are still probably a year or two from being in their prime.

Oviedo
11-16-2010, 10:21 AM
Chadman doubts it. The Steelers have been picked apart like this before & we still see other teams attempt to play a balanced offense against the Steelers D.

That being said- Chadman's confidence in this team has certainly crashed. They are back to looking clueless at times, old, slow. Not just the Defense- the O too. This is probably what we should have expected as this team transitions from an older team to what must become a younger team. It's quite possible we are now experiencing the results of Bill Cowher's final few years in Pittsburgh where veterans were getting jerseys & rookies were getting shafted. The roster got old, and now Tomlin is in the tricky position where you need to balance the injection of young players with the more rapid decline of older players. Sure, we still see some good games/years out of the older guys, but evolution takes place & as the opposition have gotten younger earlier- and their young players enter their prime- the Steelers 'younger brigade' are still probably a year or two from being in their prime.

Totally agree which is why the complexity of LeBeau's defense works against us. Rookies can get on the field playing in our offense but not our defense and Arians is the one who gets criticized.

Just another reason we need a critical assessment of our defense after the season.

steelsnis
11-16-2010, 10:22 AM
This has ALWAYS been the blueprint to beat the Steelers 3-4 defense. Raiders did it in 2002, Patriots have done it multiple times.

Not sure why there is so much consternation about this. If it were that easy to beat the Steelers, i'm quite sure they wouldn't have a 109-59 record in the past decade, using the same exact defense.

The 3-4 is vulnerable to quick, short passes in the flat. Usually, teams gain yardage against the D but are held to field goals. Great QB's like Brady can often beat that scheme, but not everyone has Brady under center. You wanna scrap the 3-4 and LeBeau because he lost to Tom Brady???

Very few teams have the personnel to line up and beat the Steelers like the Pats and Saints did this year.

Execution needs to improve, it's not the scheme.

Oviedo
11-16-2010, 10:29 AM
This has ALWAYS been the blueprint to beat the Steelers 3-4 defense. Raiders did it in 2002, Patriots have done it multiple times.

Not sure why there is so much consternation about this. If it were that easy to beat the Steelers, i'm quite sure they wouldn't have a 109-59 record in the past decade, using the same exact defense.

The 3-4 is vulnerable to quick, short passes in the flat. Usually, teams gain yardage against the D but are held to field goals. Great QB's like Brady can often beat that scheme, but not everyone has Brady under center. You wanna scrap the 3-4 and LeBeau because he lost to Tom Brady???

Very few teams have the personnel to line up and beat the Steelers like the Pats and Saints did this year.

Execution needs to improve, it's not the scheme.

The issue is that other 3-4 teams like the Jets, Ravens and even the Browns have been able to deal with Brady and the Pats while repeatedly LeBeau and our defense cannot. The concern is that LeBeau has so much faith in "his system" that he just puts the template out there and is too over confident it will just work.

Since we don't sit in defensive gameplanning session we really don't know but there is no evidence from what we see that there are modification or adjustments being made.

I've always said I would love to see LeBeau's intellectual energies and talent tapped to create a hybrid 3-4/4-3 (which I think better suits our players) but we just see more of the same.

ikestops85
11-16-2010, 11:04 AM
This has ALWAYS been the blueprint to beat the Steelers 3-4 defense. Raiders did it in 2002, Patriots have done it multiple times.

Not sure why there is so much consternation about this. If it were that easy to beat the Steelers, i'm quite sure they wouldn't have a 109-59 record in the past decade, using the same exact defense.

The 3-4 is vulnerable to quick, short passes in the flat. Usually, teams gain yardage against the D but are held to field goals. Great QB's like Brady can often beat that scheme, but not everyone has Brady under center. You wanna scrap the 3-4 and LeBeau because he lost to Tom Brady???

Very few teams have the personnel to line up and beat the Steelers like the Pats and Saints did this year.

Execution needs to improve, it's not the scheme.

The issue is that other 3-4 teams like the Jets, Ravens and even the Browns have been able to deal with Brady and the Pats while repeatedly LeBeau and our defense cannot. The concern is that LeBeau has so much faith in "his system" that he just puts the template out there and is too over confident it will just work.

Since we don't sit in defensive gameplanning session we really don't know but there is no evidence from what we see that there are modification or adjustments being made.

I've always said I would love to see LeBeau's intellectual energies and talent tapped to create a hybrid 3-4/4-3 (which I think better suits our players) but we just see more of the same.

Then why do the players say that LeBeau is always coming up with new things to implement? Every interview when asked the question about DL they reply that he is constantly tinkering and changing things. Are they stupid or do they just lie?

I'd really like to know because it's obvious that us message board posters know he won't change a thing. That he is so rigid and arrogant he believes the system he came up with years ago is so great nobody will be able to beat it. :roll:

steelsnis
11-16-2010, 11:05 AM
I understand what you're saying, but there are always extenuating circumstances. For instance, the star of the game on Sunday night was the TE Gronkowski. He played a perfect game. Not so much the week before vs. Cleveland where he misplayed a kickoff that led to Cleveland recovering and scoring, and he lost a fumble at the 1-yd line that Cleveland recovered. He makes either of those mistakes on Sunday night and maybe it's a different ball game.

I'm in no way trying to absolve Lebeau of any blame here, (I still can't figure out why he wasn't blitzing Brady at all), but I still don't think it's a total schematic problem.

grotonsteel
11-16-2010, 11:18 AM
I have been telling Day 1 Steelers need a good CB in this passing league...

Problem is Steelers don't have CB who can play man coverage ecept Ike Taylor. If DB is not the No. 1 need this offseason then FO needs to be fired.

Its a sad day to admit that Browns secondary and D-line play is far better than Steelers. How mighty have fallen.

I feel going forward Dick Lebeau has to pick his poison. Either put CB in man coverage and blitz crazy and hope that they pressure QB/sack QB or keeping following this zone coverage which aint working. I say die by the blitz.

Since 2004 i would say Sunday night game was the worst game played by Defense. DL needs to put some kinda plan..because whatever he is trying is not working.

Time for a change. DL should have retired after Sb43.

feltdizz
11-16-2010, 12:24 PM
I don't think DL should reitre... but he needs to get CB's with talent and natural instincts instead of CB's with no speed, no ball skills and no feel for the game.

Our CB's look like they just learned how to play organized football. If we are hell bent on zone coverage get CB's who played zone and tore it up in college... or better yet, spend some money and a draft pick on one of these FA's.

I'm sick of seeing old azz and slow azzz FB's, TE's and no name RB's running wide open.

Pat's ran a delayed blitz all game and shot through the gap. When we brought blitzes half the time they didn't even get past the line of scrimmage.

SteelCzar76
11-16-2010, 01:31 PM
This has ALWAYS been the blueprint to beat the Steelers 3-4 defense. Raiders did it in 2002, Patriots have done it multiple times.

Not sure why there is so much consternation about this. If it were that easy to beat the Steelers, i'm quite sure they wouldn't have a 109-59 record in the past decade, using the same exact defense.

The 3-4 is vulnerable to quick, short passes in the flat. Usually, teams gain yardage against the D but are held to field goals. Great QB's like Brady can often beat that scheme, but not everyone has Brady under center. You wanna scrap the 3-4 and LeBeau because he lost to Tom Brady???

Very few teams have the personnel to line up and beat the Steelers like the Pats and Saints did this year.

Execution needs to improve, it's not the scheme.


:Agree

We can complicate this as much as we like people but the truth is for the most part our problems on Defense as well as on Offense are a matter of Personnel. (or lack thereof)

proudpittsburgher
11-16-2010, 01:36 PM
I was listening to someone, I think it was trent dilfer, yesterday and he was talking about what NE did to us Sunday night. Cowherd asked him something along the lines of was this a blueprint to beating the steelers and he said it could be, but I'm counting up the number of QB's who can pull this off, and only two come to mind, Manning and Brady.

Look, The Patriots got owned by the Browns a week ago . . . do you think they are worried about having exposed the blueprint to beating them? Hardly. We had an awful game, absolutely awful. We had an absolutely brutal loss against the Colts in 05, something we weren't supposed to be able to recover from, and we did just fine, eventually beating that same Colts team in their own building. And that particular game was the second in a series of three losses in a row that season that should have pretty much ended any playoff hopes we had.

Am I concerned about what happened last Sunday? Sure. But this doesn't represent the end of our season by any means.

brothervad
11-16-2010, 02:26 PM
I have been talking about the Steelers age for a couple of season's now.

Chadman hit it right on the nose. It's not just about consistency it is also about injuries as older guys take up a roster spot and even if they are very good players they don't mean much if they are on the injury list more often than not.

Things are in transition for the Steelers...doesn't mean a collapse but still it is pretty evident.

The Defensive Line, when healthy are the perfect. Unfortunately they aren't able to stay on the field healthy anymore. This helps to neutralize our strongest area on D the LB corp...especially when it comes to pressure which we so need given our corner situation...which leads me to...

The corners remind me of the year that both DeWayne Washington and Chad Scott fell off the cliff in 2003. Granted it's not a far fall, but the 10 yard cushion is really ugly...especially with a guy like Brady.

Safety play...look I am not saying Troy P has lost a step but let's face facts...Troy is in his 8th season. He hits that magical age that is considered long in tooth in the NFL (30) next year. Ryan Clark is already 31 and I really am not sure that I have seen the same Clark as I have in the past.

Another thing besides age (this may be my NFL is out to get us paranoia). I have noticed a different team since the illegal-hit-gate...it seems to have lost some of that intensity. It could be just me but I notice some hesitancy in the intimidation factor since that fateful day in Cleveland. Nothing marked just minor, but noticeable. Is it possible that Goodell has gotten into their heads...at least subconciously.

I am not saying Ziggy is a bust at this point, but I am worried about our DL...he needs to be something special. This is the current age of the Steeler line...just add a year for 2011


Nick Eason -- 30
Brett Keisel --32
Ziggy Hood -- 23
Aaron Smith -- 34
Steve McClendon --24
Casey Hampton -- 33
Chris Hoke --34


There lies in the problem with us needing Corners...other than LB and perhaps in the Short term Safety, we need a lot of D-Line and corner retooling right now. And that is not even discussing what is needed on the O side of the ball.

brothervad

NW Steeler
11-16-2010, 02:33 PM
"The 2006 Vikings finished with the NFL's eighth-best overall defense, but had the unusual distinction of finishing as the top-ranked defense against the run, and the worst-ranked defense against the pass."

So is the problem Tomlin or LeBeau?

I think it is coincidence only. Our secondary just does not have very good players (sans Troy of course), and no pass rush = torched secondary no matter who you have back there.

Steelerphile
11-16-2010, 07:10 PM
I think Brady is the only QB who can slice up the defense that well. He did the same thing to the Cowher coached teams. He might not be athletic but he has a quick drop and scans the field and makes instantaneous decisions that are almost always right.

I'm a Big Ben fan so I hope noones interprets this as bashing BB, but Brady makes his reads much faster.

The Steeler coaches had to know that was coming and I am a little curious what the defensive gameplan was. Since it is hard to pressure Brady when he releases so fast, but you have to try. I think Worilds does need some more exposure. An exotic gameplan of sorts. I read on some message boards that Cleveland slowed Brady down with an amoeba defense, but I am not sure exactly what they did.

I'm not worried that another team will do that same thing, because Brady is that special.

NW Steeler
11-16-2010, 07:15 PM
I'm not worried that another team will do that same thing, because Brady is that special.


Where is that VOMIT emoticon when I need it?

LouSteel
11-16-2010, 07:19 PM
I'm not worried that another team will do that same thing, because Brady is that special.

Brady is a great QB, but he's not the only one that can do this.

This is a copy-cat league. I guarantee if we make the playoffs and run this D, the other team's gameplan will be the same: max protect and take the four or five passing yards we always give.

We might be able to beat the likes of Josh Freeman and Vince Young by dropping everyone into coverage.

We won't confuse Manning or Brady or even Rivers like that.

Shawn
11-16-2010, 08:17 PM
We have so many offseason needs. Db, OL, DL, WR are all top priorities. There has to be a switch at DB. Our OL is shreaded. We need to bench ARE and get Sanders/Brown into the passing game.

winwithd
11-16-2010, 09:04 PM
Brady is SPECIAL like Colt McCoy (with more experience). Nothing that special. Any average NFL QB should be able to hit OPEN receivers on SHORT passes while feeling NO pressure. Even Collinsworth was pointing out the glaring like of pressure Brady was getting (no sacks, hits, or hurries by halftime).

I thought Brady had one, maybe two, special throws. One required a SPECIAL catch by the TE on the first TD. He probably couldn't make the same throw the next 4 times he tries it either. The second was when Tate beat Taylor deep in the second half hitting him in stride. That was a goof by Troy I think they were saying. Not every QB throws that one on the money like that.

And did you notice how he threw a couple of bad passes after the first time he felt any real pressure. There was a holding call on I think Harrison as he was coming around the backside and still got a hand on Marsha. I thought at that point we were going to see Harrison take over the game as he has done a few times in the third quarter of games. Marsha's next two or three passes were pretty ugly.

The guy is a Patsie. Didn't he fall apart in the playoffs last year against Baltimore when they started hitting him a little? I wish we would have blitzed the heck out of him and took our chances. Couldn't have been much worse? At least we might have had the satisfaction of watching that poser have to scrap himself off the ground a few times. Once you hit him a few times he starts hearing footsteps and misfiring.

And how the heck was Woodley's hit in the fourth quarter a late hit when the Pats LB did not get called for a late hit in the first quarter on Ben?

Maybe the team thought that after 3 tough games on the road maybe just being home again was somehow going to make it easier. They just did not seem ready from the start. No fire.

If we have to settle for a split with the Patsies this year I would rather beat them in January then November anyway.

brothervad
11-16-2010, 09:55 PM
We have so many offseason needs. Db, OL, DL, WR are all top priorities. There has to be a switch at DB. Our OL is shreaded. We need to bench ARE and get Sanders/Brown into the passing game.

Shawn,

I don't disagree but I think at this point the Steelers need to employ triage when they base their draft strategy next year.

I think in order of needs is the following:

DL--Steelers need to get young and talented fast...since this D is designed mainly around LB pressure...we need guys who can help open gaps)

DB--If no stud DL are available in round 1 and I mean sure hits then this goes to #1 and fast...it's apparent we have a reeling secondary. At the very least this has to be a 2nd round pick)

OL --I am putting this as a #3 priority because we may be able to get something out of the existing line...It may be snake-bit this year. Perhaps a 3rd or 4th rounder can get us depth of talent which is something the Steelers could grow into a starter. The reason I say "or 4th round" is perhaps we need to doulble up on one of the two top priorities.

WR -- At this point perhaps we have something in both Sanders, Brown to couple with what we have in Wallace. I am not saying we don't need this but the stuff above needs multiple round selections. This may unfortunately be one of those areas where they will sign retreads unfortunately.

Anyway, this is how I see there needs in order of priority.

brothervad

pepsyman1
11-16-2010, 10:37 PM
"The 2006 Vikings finished with the NFL's eighth-best overall defense, but had the unusual distinction of finishing as the top-ranked defense against the run, and the worst-ranked defense against the pass."

So is the problem Tomlin or LeBeau?

The 2008 Steelers finished 1st against the pass and 2nd against the run. I really don't think Tomlin would have wanted to change what we are doing and we obviously haven't been playing as aggressively as we did that year. I think LeBeau has gotten too conservative.