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View Full Version : Getting Ziggy with it??



CanadianSteel
11-15-2010, 03:22 PM
Now before you all start trashing me, no i'm not calling Hood a bust. But i'll be honest, i was expecting more from him. Did not hold the point of attack well last night and didn't even show up on the box score when i took a closer look at last nights game. With a year under his belt i was hoping for a step in the right direction from him this year. Seems to me he has not gotten much better.
Yes i know some players take a while (Timmons) ect, but Timmons showed flashes, i'm not seeing much from Ziggy atm.
Just wondering if it's just me, or are other Steelers fans thinking the same thing.

Crash
11-15-2010, 03:23 PM
As a pass rusher he sucks. He should be removed for Worilds on obvious pass rushing downs.

CanadianSteel
11-15-2010, 03:34 PM
i give him a pass on that cause it's not what he is really asked to do. Although it was what he was noted for, go figure. He just don't look strong on running plays to me at all

steelblood
11-15-2010, 03:37 PM
He's not doing anything well right now. Maybe his ankle is limiting him. I'm very disappointed after all of the training camp accolades.

CanadianSteel
11-15-2010, 03:39 PM
We saw how a bad ankle can effect a player (Timmons) true. Hope that is the case, i was high on this kid, still am just not liking what i'm seeing so far this year.

RuthlessBurgher
11-15-2010, 04:13 PM
As a pass rusher he sucks. He should be removed for Worilds on obvious pass rushing downs.

In situations that call for him to be a pass rusher (nickel, dime) instead of a guy whose job is to occupy blockers to allow linebackers to be able to make plays (base 3-4), Ziggy moves inside to DT on a 4-man line. You can't possibly expect someone the size of Worilds to hold up as an interior d-lineman in situations like that (the nickel & dime DE's in those situations are Harrison and Woodley).

BradshawsHairdresser
11-15-2010, 04:18 PM
Looks as though DL is still a major target area for draft or FA prospects.

Crash
11-15-2010, 04:21 PM
Then Eason should come out at DE.

Eason AND Hood rushing the passer on 3rd downs is pointless.

RuthlessBurgher
11-15-2010, 04:31 PM
Then Eason should come out at DE.

Eason AND Hood rushing the passer on 3rd downs is pointless.

Okay...again. When we move to the nickel or dime in obvious passing situations, the 3-4 DE's become DT's and the 3-4 OLB's become DE's on a 4 man d-line.

When everyone is healthy, that means that our nickel or dime DL looks like this: Harrison-Keisel-Smith-Woodley.

With Keisel and Smith out, that makes it look like this instead: Harrison-Eason-Hood-Woodley. Certainly not ideal, but those are the cards that we've been dealt right now.

Worilds fills in for Harrison or Woodley if they need a breather, not Eason or Hood.

If Eason or Hood need to come out, they get replaced by McLendon or Hoke.

Crash
11-15-2010, 04:33 PM
Okay...again. When we move to the nickel or dime in obvious passing situations, the 3-4 DE's become DT's and the 3-4 OLB's become DE's on a 4 man d-line.

You are wrong. Last night we rushed 3 DL's or 3 DL's and one OLB.

Worilds played in Miami as a rush DE. Why hasn't he played since?

ikestops85
11-15-2010, 04:41 PM
Okay...again. When we move to the nickel or dime in obvious passing situations, the 3-4 DE's become DT's and the 3-4 OLB's become DE's on a 4 man d-line.

You are wrong. Last night we rushed 3 DL's or 3 DL's and one OLB.

Worilds played in Miami as a rush DE. Why hasn't he played since?

I think you are wrong Crash. When the Pats lined up in there 2 TE and 2 WR set yes we rushed 3 defensive linemen. It's when they they went to 3 wide and we played the nickel or dime that Hampton comes off the field and the 2 defensive ends move into the tackle position just like Ruthless said.

Worilds played in Miami because of the temperature and players hurt. We haven't had that situation since.

BradshawsHairdresser
11-15-2010, 04:43 PM
Okay...again. When we move to the nickel or dime in obvious passing situations, the 3-4 DE's become DT's and the 3-4 OLB's become DE's on a 4 man d-line.

You are wrong. Last night we rushed 3 DL's or 3 DL's and one OLB.

Worilds played in Miami as a rush DE. Why hasn't he played since?

I think you are wrong Crash. When the Pats lined up in there 2 TE and 2 WR set yes we rushed 3 defensive linemen. It's when they they went to 3 wide and we played the nickel or dime that Hampton comes off the field and the 2 defensive ends move into the tackle position just like Ruthless said.

Worilds played in Miami because of the temperature and players hurt. We haven't had that situation since.

Well, when the pass rush is as ineffective as it was vs. the *'s, it seems to me it would be a good time to put Worilds in and see if he could help.

As far as Ziggy, maybe if he bulked up a bit we could try him on offense at RG.

Crash
11-15-2010, 05:04 PM
We haven't had injuries on the DL since Miami? Really? So Smith and Keisel played last night and we still got worked?

Damn.

It's time for LeBeau and his buddy system to hit the bricks. We are a tired, old, outdated defense.

ikestops85
11-15-2010, 05:12 PM
We haven't had injuries on the DL since Miami? Really? So Smith and Keisel played last night and we still got worked?

Damn.

It's time for LeBeau and his buddy system to hit the bricks. We are a tired, old, outdated defense.

Yes we are a tired, old, outdated defense. That's why we are ranked last as a defense. I mean the best defenses in the league, like Baltimore, never get roughed up. cough ... Bills ... cough.

birtikidis
11-15-2010, 05:14 PM
We haven't had injuries on the DL since Miami? Really? So Smith and Keisel played last night and we still got worked?

Damn.

It's time for LeBeau and his buddy system to hit the bricks. We are a tired, old, outdated defense.
crash, what he means is we needed players to step in in a pinch. and in the Miami game, the heat got to Woodley and Harrison so their backups had to play more to keep them fresh. We dressed extra d-lineman for the Tenn, Miami, and Tb games because they expected the heat to wear the big guys out.

Crash
11-15-2010, 05:19 PM
We haven't had injuries on the DL since Miami? Really? So Smith and Keisel played last night and we still got worked?

Damn.

It's time for LeBeau and his buddy system to hit the bricks. We are a tired, old, outdated defense.

Yes we are a tired, old, outdated defense. That's why we are ranked last as a defense. I mean the best defenses in the league, like Baltimore, never get roughed up. cough ... Bills ... cough.

I don't care about their rank. I care about what they do against quality teams. This team since XLIII on defense has major holes in their scheme, their attitude, how we use people, and in crunch time in the 4th quarter.

How many times are we going to see James Farrior get beat underneath before his responsibility changes? How many times are we going to see Eason and Hood do nothing in a 3 man rush before Worilds gets his chance?

We have the oldest defense in football. But yet, a 2nd rounder like Worilds can't see the field for 3 weeks after making plays?

And you think that's OK?

birtikidis
11-15-2010, 05:25 PM
crash would you start to complain if they pulled Eason and all of a sudden we couldn't stop the run? I'm not a fan of Eason, but you can't have two defensive lineman on the field as your base defense.

ikestops85
11-15-2010, 05:32 PM
We haven't had injuries on the DL since Miami? Really? So Smith and Keisel played last night and we still got worked?

Damn.

It's time for LeBeau and his buddy system to hit the bricks. We are a tired, old, outdated defense.

Yes we are a tired, old, outdated defense. That's why we are ranked last as a defense. I mean the best defenses in the league, like Baltimore, never get roughed up. cough ... Bills ... cough.

I don't care about their rank. I care about what they do against quality teams. This team since XLIII on defense has major holes in their scheme, their attitude, how we use people, and in crunch time in the 4th quarter.

How many times are we going to see James Farrior get beat underneath before his responsibility changes? How many times are we going to see Eason and Hood do nothing in a 3 man rush before Worilds gets his chance?

We have the oldest defense in football. But yet, a 2nd rounder like Worilds can't see the field for 3 weeks after making plays?

And you think that's OK?

So tell me who you have on the field for a 3rd and 5 and what position they are in. I am in a 3 WR set with 1 TE and 1 RB. Go

Crash
11-15-2010, 05:36 PM
So tell me who you have on the field for a 3rd and 5 and what position they are in. I am in a 3 WR set with 1 TE and 1 RB. Go

Worlds, Hampton, Hood or Eason.

Hood or Eason is fine. Hood AND Eason rushing on a 3 man front is a disaster.

I also don't like that Eason starts at DE. I would leave Eason as Casey's backup, and use Hoke starting at DE.

ikestops85
11-15-2010, 05:45 PM
So tell me who you have on the field for a 3rd and 5 and what position they are in. I am in a 3 WR set with 1 TE and 1 RB. Go

Worlds, Hampton, Hood or Eason.

Hood or Eason is fine. Hood AND Eason rushing on a 3 man front is a disaster.

I also don't like that Eason starts at DE. I would leave Eason as Casey's backup, and use Hoke starting at DE.

So I am in a 3 wide on an obvious passing down and you aren't even in a nickel? WTF?

Crash
11-15-2010, 05:50 PM
I'm talking linemen. Pass rush specialists.

Learn your Steelers history, many a Steelers future OLB started as pass rush ends for this football team.

Brown, Gildon, Carlos Emmons, Peezy, LaMarr Woodley.

Why can't Worilds?

ikestops85
11-15-2010, 05:58 PM
I'm talking linemen. Pass rush specialists.

Learn your Steelers history, many a Steelers future OLB started as pass rush ends for this football team.

Brown, Gildon, Carlos Emmons, LaMarr Woodley.

Why can't Worilds?

That's why I'm asking you who you would have on the field. I know my steeler history ... and by the way Brown played as an inside linebacker and only moved outside the year Lloyd got hurt. For Worilds to get on the field as a pass rusher you need to take out either Woodley or Harrison. That ain't happening.

Crash
11-15-2010, 06:02 PM
Brown played as an inside linebacker and only moved outside the year Lloyd got hurt.

And yet despite having Kevin Greene, and Greg Lloyd on the 1993 team, Chad Brown was a 3rd down rush end.

ikestops85
11-15-2010, 06:31 PM
Brown played as an inside linebacker and only moved outside the year Lloyd got hurt.

And yet despite having Kevin Greene, and Greg Lloyd on the 1993 team, Chad Brown was a 3rd down rush end.

I don't know how else to say this but ... NO he wasn't. He started 9 games in 1993 and played them all as an inside linebacker. He blitzed from that position at times but he was never a defensive end.

Crash
11-15-2010, 06:57 PM
I don't know how else to say this but ... NO he wasn't

In certain situations...YES he was. On 3rd down Lloyd would go in the middle, and Brown would rush at end.

2:20 in

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tunJDoL7 ... re=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tunJDoL7O4U&feature=related)

Look who the rush defensive end is on the Steelers' right side.

#94 Chad Brown.

Here is 1994 when Brown was a stater, Jason Gildon doing it, notice Lloyd in the middle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-XTtNgdkKU

Class dismissed.

SuperSize
11-15-2010, 07:48 PM
Here's my $.02 regarding last night & pass rush in general.

Last night, I don't know why the Steelers spent ANY time in the base defense. New England had no intentions of running the ball, even though they lined up with two tights all night. They have been throwing out of that formation all year, and they use that formation to dictate to the defense what package they want them in. We should have dared them to run by going nickel & dime on first down. Also, when the steelers are in their dime package, Troy doesn't have to stay back in 2-deep coverage, limiting his impact on the game.

I would have used Hampton as on of the 2 down lineman in the sub packages, because (1) he is stout against the run & (2) he is the only down lineman the Steelers have who pushes the pocket.

My 1st down line-up would have looked like this: Harrison (OLB), Hood/Eason (DL), Hampton (DL), Woodley (OLB); Timmons (MLB); Taylor (CB), Gay (CB), McFadden (CB), Clark (S), Polamalu (S), and Allen (S). Play Troy up in the box as a LB covering the underneath stuff. I don't think NE has a good enough running game to beat us consistently, and that line-up allows us better match-ups in the passing game (playing zone under & overtop), with a better pass rush from the front four. Timmons & Polamalu can situationally blitz.

One note, I have will Allen in this line-up and I don't remember seeing him last night, but I think you get the idea.


Pete

Crash
11-15-2010, 08:05 PM
Allen had a concussion last week and was inactive.

RuthlessBurgher
11-16-2010, 03:09 PM
I don't know how else to say this but ... NO he wasn't

In certain situations...YES he was. On 3rd down Lloyd would go in the middle, and Brown would rush at end.

2:20 in

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tunJDoL7 ... re=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tunJDoL7O4U&feature=related)

Look who the rush defensive end is on the Steelers' right side.

#94 Chad Brown.

Here is 1994 when Brown was a stater, Jason Gildon doing it, notice Lloyd in the middle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-XTtNgdkKU

Class dismissed.

I am not even able to view those videos at work, but my own memory of our defense in the mid-90's leads me to believe that this example doesn't prove your point at all. When Lloyd moved inside in the dime, Brown (or Gildon) took Lloyd's spot as a rush end. We didn't replace Brentson Buckner or Ray Seals with Chad Brown (that would be the equivalent of your suggestion to replace Hood or Eason with Worilds).

If Worilds plays rush end, he would be replacing Harrison or Woodley, not Hood or Eason. In the nickel and dime, Eason and Hood are not rush ends...Harrison and Woodley are rush ends...Eason and Hood are DT's...suggesting that we replace Hood or Eason with Worilds is saying that the 6'2" 262 lbs. Worilds should be a defensive tackle in the nickel and dime.

Crash
11-16-2010, 03:25 PM
When Lloyd moved inside in the dime, Brown (or Gildon) took Lloyd's spot as a rush end. We didn't replace Brentson Buckner or Ray Seals with Chad Brown (that would be the equivalent of your suggestion to replace Hood or Eason with Worilds).

In 1993 no we didn't, and do you know why?

Ray Seals and Brentson Buckner were not on the 1993 Steelers when Chad Brown was a 3rd down pass rushing DE.

Next?

We rushed three DL's and an OLB Sunday night when we rush 4 men. You guys need to watch the games.

It's obvious you don't.

CanadianSteel
11-16-2010, 03:59 PM
How did a convo about Ziggy not holding the point of attack turn into a Chad Brown debate?
:nono

lol

NorthCoast
11-16-2010, 11:17 PM
As a pass rusher he sucks. He should be removed for Worilds on obvious pass rushing downs.

In situations that call for him to be a pass rusher (nickel, dime) instead of a guy whose job is to occupy blockers to allow linebackers to be able to make plays (base 3-4), Ziggy moves inside to DT on a 4-man line. You can't possibly expect someone the size of Worilds to hold up as an interior d-lineman in situations like that (the nickel & dime DE's in those situations are Harrison and Woodley).

This whole 'occupying blockers' is overblown I think. We need our DL to do more! Against the Patriots the Browns nose tackles had 10 tackles, the ends finished with more than a dozen combined. Of course, that's where Belicheck threw a monkey wrench into our game and dropped the run game, thus no runs to make tackles on.