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plainnasty
10-21-2010, 11:30 AM
Last night Rich McKay, co-chair of the NFL Competition Committee, was on the NFL Network to discuss helmet to helmet contact. He used Ray Lewis' hit on Dustin Keller as an example of how a hard hit could still be legal.

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j260/tkolshorn/Screen05.jpg?t=1287674351
Here is Lewis' hit at the moment of impact.

Now let's look at Harrison's "illegal" hit at the moment of impact.

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j260/tkolshorn/Screen03.jpg?t=1287674441

If anything Harrison's is slighly lower than Lewis. The only difference between the two are that Massaquoi lowered his body and head at the last moment and that Massaquoi weighs 50 lbs less than Keller.

The hypocrisy is unbelievable.

papillon
10-21-2010, 01:11 PM
Last night Rich McKay, co-chair of the NFL Competition Committee, was on the NFL Network to discuss helmet to helmet contact. He used Ray Lewis' hit on Dustin Keller as an example of how a hard hit could still be legal.

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j260/tkolshorn/Screen05.jpg?t=1287674351
Here is Lewis' hit at the moment of impact.

Now let's look at Harrison's "illegal" hit at the moment of impact.

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j260/tkolshorn/Screen03.jpg?t=1287674441

If anything Harrison's is slighly lower than Lewis. The only difference between the two are that Massaquoi lowered his body and head at the last moment and that Massaquoi weighs 50 lbs less than Keller.

The hypocrisy is unbelievable.

That and Ray Lewis actually wrapped Keller up like a text book tackle. Had James Harrison even intimated that he any thought of wrapping up Massaquoi he wouldn't have been fined. When Harrison followed through he looked like he was head hunting and therein lies the problem. Lewis tackled, wrapped and drove Keller to the ground the way you were taught to tackle.

The two are very different, IMO.

Pappy

birtikidis
10-21-2010, 01:25 PM
I think in your fuzzy '70s porn style picture of harrison it looks like his head is down whereas in teh Ray ray pic it looks like his head is up.
can't tell though because qualities of pics are so different.

plainnasty
10-21-2010, 02:08 PM
That and Ray Lewis actually wrapped Keller up like a text book tackle. Had James Harrison even intimated that he any thought of wrapping up Massaquoi he wouldn't have been fined. When Harrison followed through he looked like he was head hunting and therein lies the problem. Lewis tackled, wrapped and drove Keller to the ground the way you were taught to tackle.

The two are very different, IMO.

Pappy

If Keller, who is 250, crumbled the way Massaquoi did, Lewis wouldn't have wrapped him up either. In addition, wrapping up is text book tackling, but Harrison wasn't fined for not wrapping up.

The bottom line is that if Massaquoi came over the middle on Lewis, but ducked his head at the last second, Lewis would have hit him just how Harrison did.

papillon
10-21-2010, 02:19 PM
That and Ray Lewis actually wrapped Keller up like a text book tackle. Had James Harrison even intimated that he any thought of wrapping up Massaquoi he wouldn't have been fined. When Harrison followed through he looked like he was head hunting and therein lies the problem. Lewis tackled, wrapped and drove Keller to the ground the way you were taught to tackle.

The two are very different, IMO.

Pappy

If Keller, who is 250, crumbled the way Massaquoi did, Lewis wouldn't have wrapped him up either. In addition, wrapping up is text book tackling, but Harrison wasn't fined for not wrapping up.

The bottom line is that if Massaquoi came over the middle on Lewis, but ducked his head at the last second, Lewis would have hit him just how Harrison did.

I know Harrison wasn't fined for not wrapping, but he lead with his shoulder and forearm and then after contact it looked like he was flying. Had he tried to wrap up instead of the big hit, I don't think he would have been fined; Massaquoi would have been lit up, ball jarred loose and no fine,IMO. It just looked bad, that's all.

Keller is a much larger target than Massaquoi and smaller targets are going to present problems for LBs, CBs and safeties. They present a smaller legal area to hit. I'm not saying it's right Harrison being fined for his hit, but it looked a lot worse than Lewis'.

Perception is going to play a big role in who gets fined and who doesn't, because the game is so fast. Even in slow motion you can barely see what happened on the Massaquoi hit.

Pappy

skyhawk
10-21-2010, 03:01 PM
Lewis is still leading with his helmet. FINE. :stirpot

RuthlessBurgher
10-21-2010, 03:39 PM
How to tackle without leading with your helmet:

http://www.gifsoup.com/view/169070/waterboy-o.gif

stlrz d
10-21-2010, 09:10 PM
Pap - They show Lewis' tackle in the new NFL video on "how to tackle properly" and he does not wrap Keller up after hitting him. It's pretty much the same hit Harrison put on Massaquoi but Keller doesn't duck like Massaquoi does.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d8 ... ule=HP_cp2 (http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d81b811df/article/nfls-video-message-to-players-you-are-on-notice-about-hits?module=HP_cp2)

Discipline of Steel
10-21-2010, 09:35 PM
Very good Ruthless!

The subjective nature of the new rule puts hesitation into all defensive players. Thats not fair. Very little subjectivity with the spearing rule. Rant over...

fordfixer
10-22-2010, 02:04 AM
Cook: 'That's football' says Steelers' Ward
Friday, October 22, 2010
By Ron Cook, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/10295/1097187-66.stm

Generally speaking, there are two reactions among players to the NFL's new, get-tough policy on hits to the head. Offensive players -- especially wide receivers and running backs -- are in favor of it and welcome the extra protection. Defensive players -- especially linebackers and defensive backs -- think it's ridiculous and worry that the pro game will be ruined.

Then, there is Hines Ward. He is a linebacker trapped in a wide receiver's body. You might think he is conflicted. But he's not. Not even a little bit.

"It's ridiculous," Ward said Thursday. "You can't take the roughness out of football."

The NFL is trying. It fined three players, including Steelers linebacker James Harrison, for hits Sunday that it considered too violent. It has promised to suspend even first-time offenders for vicious hits, beginning with the games Sunday.

"Thing is, they came to training camp this summer and talked to us and said there would be a warning, then a fine, then a suspension," Ward said. "Now they want to skip the first two steps and go right to the suspension. It's wrong."

By now, everybody has seen the hits Sunday. They've been replayed endlessly on television. Harrison knocked Cleveland Browns wide receiver Mohamed Massaquoi out of the game and was fined $75,000 even though he wasn't penalized on the play and Steelers coach Mike Tomlin called it a legal, non-fineable hit. Atlanta Falcons cornerback Dunta Robinson led with his shoulder and had a violent collision with Philadelphia Eagles wide receiver DeSean Jackson, leaving both with head injuries that ended their day. New England Patriots safety Brandon Meriweather leaped head-first at Baltimore Ravens tight end Todd Heap's head and left Heap temporarily dazed. Robinson and Meriweather were fined $50,000 each. Harrison's fine was more because he was fined earlier in the season for trying to corkscrew Tennessee Titans quarterback Vince Young into the ground with a body slam. That was a much more dangerous play than his hit on Massaquoi.

Ward agreed with many longtime NFL observers that Meriweather's hit was the worst of the bunch. "It was an illegal hit. He jumped into him and led with the crown of his helmet."

But the others?

"That's football," Ward said. "It's a tough game. It has to be the toughest sport out there aside from maybe mixed-martial arts."

Ward knows it from all angles. During his 13-year career, he has taken his share of big hits and has said he has played with concussion-like symptoms. He also has delivered a number of infamous blocks on defenders, among them Rod Woodson, Ed Reed and Bart Scott. In the 2008 season, he broke the jaw of Cincinnati Bengals linebacker Keith Rivers. After the season, the NFL banned that sort of blindside hit. It's known as the Hines Ward rule.

"It's a tough game," Ward said again. "When we sign that contract, we know the risks. You don't have to play if you think it's too rough. We have guys quit in training camp every year because they can't take it. It's not for everybody. But those who play the game know the risks and are willing to take them."

Ward said a lot of the violent hits on pass plays across the middle could be eliminated if receivers played smarter. Harrison was able to deliver his blow to Massaquoi because the receiver came into his zone.

"You can't just run through zone coverage," Ward said. "If you run by one guy and then another guy, you have to know there's still going to be a third guy there waiting for you.

"That's why you always see me sitting down [stopping] when I see zone coverage. You're not supposed to run through zone coverage. You're supposed to find the opening and sit down."

Ward said quarterbacks -- especially young quarterbacks -- also need to have more regard for their receivers' safety. Browns rookie Colt McCoy filled in for injured veterans Jake Delhomme and Seneca Wallace against the Steelers and made his NFL debut.

"It's funny, I was talking to Massaquoi about quarterbacks pregame," Ward said. "I told him it's rough playing with three different quarterbacks. It's especially tough playing with a rookie. If he considers you his go-to guy, he's going to watch you run your route the whole way. That's what happened on that play when [Massaquoi] was hit. [McCoy] followed him with his eyes the whole way. James saw that and knew that pass was coming."

Robinson's hit on Jackson couldn't be so easily avoided, Ward said.

"His quarterback [Kevin Kolb] didn't see the cornerback there and led him right into him. What was [Robinson] supposed to do? He led with his shoulder. That's a good football play. If he tackles him low, he blows out his knees and ends his career. Is that what the league's trying to tell us it wants?"

Like many NFL players, Ward is troubled by what he calls the league's "hypocrisy." Pictures of Harrison's hit on Massaquoi were available for purchase through the NFL website until KDKA-TV reported on it and embarrassed league officials into pulling the photos. "They said it was a mistake, but they know what's on their website," Ward said.

The Steelers are just as guilty of the hypocrisy. At least once in each home game at Heinz Field, they play Styx's song "Renegade" with an accompanying scoreboard video that highlights many of the hits by Steelers players that the NFL now is saying are illegal. Ward's block of Rivers is on it. So are safety Ryan Clark's hits on the Patriots' Wes Welker and the Ravens' Willis McGahee. The crowd loves it. The Steelers' defenders get geeked. But does that make it any less hypocritical?

And don't even get Ward started on the NFL's plan to go to an 18-game schedule.

"They say they care about the players' safety and they want to add two games?" he asked. "If they really cared about us, they should give us health care for life. But you know that's not going to happen."

Still, Ward plans on showing up Sunday in Miami to play the Dolphins. As he said, the game isn't for everybody. But, clearly, it's for him, violence, warts and all.


Read more: http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/10295/10 ... z1344tjOz9 (http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/10295/1097187-66.stm#ixzz1344tjOz9)

NJ-STEELER
10-22-2010, 02:51 AM
yeah i dont remember slash doing any wrapping up on the play. he stood over him for a split second and started his usual promotion with his teammates right after

stlrz d
10-22-2010, 07:49 AM
The Steelers are just as guilty of the hypocrisy. At least once in each home game at Heinz Field, they play Styx's song "Renegade" with an accompanying scoreboard video that highlights many of the hits by Steelers players that the NFL now is saying are illegal. Ward's block of Rivers is on it. So are safety Ryan Clark's hits on the Patriots' Wes Welker and the Ravens' Willis McGahee. The crowd loves it. The Steelers' defenders get geeked. But does that make it any less hypocritical?

How so? They aren't out there saying one thing and doing another.

I can't believe a writer doesn't know the definition of hypocrisy. Wow....

Kaeg
10-22-2010, 07:52 AM
The Steelers are just as guilty of the hypocrisy. At least once in each home game at Heinz Field, they play Styx's song "Renegade" with an accompanying scoreboard video that highlights many of the hits by Steelers players that the NFL now is saying are illegal. Ward's block of Rivers is on it. So are safety Ryan Clark's hits on the Patriots' Wes Welker and the Ravens' Willis McGahee. The crowd loves it. The Steelers' defenders get geeked. But does that make it any less hypocritical?


I don't agree here. If we were the ones complaining about the hits, then yes, it would be hypocritical. I think the whole point got lost somewhere in this paragraph.


Edit. Sorry, I was just a little late in making the same point as the last poster. Hehehe.

papillon
10-22-2010, 08:17 AM
Pap - They show Lewis' tackle in the new NFL video on "how to tackle properly" and he does not wrap Keller up after hitting him. It's pretty much the same hit Harrison put on Massaquoi but Keller doesn't duck like Massaquoi does.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d8 ... ule=HP_cp2 (http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d81b811df/article/nfls-video-message-to-players-you-are-on-notice-about-hits?module=HP_cp2)

Yup, you're right, but his head was to the side and he hit Keller below the neck and above the waist. Perception is going to be 99% of the law in these cases. Harrison's hit looked worse, both hits were delivered with shoulders and forearms, but one was too high and the other not.

Harrison's was too high for a few reasons, smaller target and Massaquoi covering up to protect himself. There are going to be a lot of those cases where players are covering up and get decleated high. It's going to suck.

Pappy

anger 82&95
10-22-2010, 01:42 PM
How to tackle without leading with your helmet:

http://www.gifsoup.com/view/169070/waterboy-o.gif
LOL, nice...