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View Full Version : Did you see the same thing on defense?



Oviedo
10-06-2010, 09:20 AM
Posted this in another thread but given it is a bye week and we will all be bored stiff would appreciate some of the more knowledgeable posters to comment on what I think I see happening.

Defense has been solid but I think the general concern is that the Ravens did exactly what the teams that beat us late last year did and we made no adjustments last year to stop it from happening.

The defense struggles when teams max protect the QB thereby nulifying the pass rush which the key to our scheme. They then take advantage of the big cushions that the CBs give the WRs by throwing 6-8 yard completions and letting the WRs get yards after the catch. Our CBs then begin to get antsy and want to attck the WR to try to break up the pass or limit the YAC and they are then susceptible to the double move just like what happened to Bmac on Sunday.

This is the exact same thing we saw last year and you can't deny it happened again this past Sunday. Last year we didn't have Troy but this past Sunday IMO we made a huge mistake blitzing him and creating space in the secondary. In a short field situation it would just seem like it would be advantageous to have the best safety in the game crowding the passing lanes in the secondary versus vacating them.

papillon
10-06-2010, 09:28 AM
Posted this in another thread but given it is a bye week and we will all be bored stiff would appreciate some of the more knowledgeable posters to comment on what I think I see happening.

Defense has been solid but I think the general concern is that the Ravens did exactly what the teams that beat us late last year did and we made no adjustments last year to stop it from happening.

The defense struggles when teams max protect the QB thereby nulifying the pass rush which the key to our scheme. They then take advantage of the big cushions that the CBs give the WRs by throwing 6-8 yard completions and letting the WRs get yards after the catch. Our CBs then begin to get antsy and want to attck the WR to try to break up the pass or limit the YAC and they are then susceptible to the double move just like what happened to Bmac on Sunday.

This is the exact same thing we saw last year and you can't deny it happened again this past Sunday. Last year we didn't have Troy but this past Sunday IMO we made a huge mistake blitzing him and creating space in the secondary. In a short field situation it would just seem like it would be advantageous to have the best safety in the game crowding the passing lanes in the secondary versus vacating them.

I don't know if I'm a knowledgeable poster or not, but here's my take on the defense. They thrive when they are able to pressure the quarterback and Lebeau has said in an interview that pressure is more important than actual sacks. We know or, at least, we all believe that our corners are probably NFL average (maybe, Ike is a bit above average) corner backs.

To compensate for the corner back play they blitz or try to apply pressure form all angles to confuse an offense. If a team is willing to be patient and take what the Steelers give them the short passes there is a good chance that they will move the ball effectively. What I believe the Steelers hope for is the fact that an offense will make a mistake during a 10-12 play drive and they will capitalize on the mistake.

When the defense doesn't capitalize on the mistake or the offense doesn't make one you get what happened in the last minute of the Raven's game. My only issue with the TD call on defense is leaving Bmac alone on Housmanzadeh. I'm good with Ike in single coverage, but Bmac needed some help, IMO.

This style of defense has been very good to the Steelers for a long time. I wouldn't panic yet.

Pappy

chiken
10-06-2010, 10:02 AM
OUR Defense is at its best when it forces the QB to get the ball out of his hands early.. We're like Mike Tyson - early in the possession we are dangerous but if you take us late into the possesion then we lose advantage. (thats any team)

Sending Troy at that point in the game told us that DL was not comfortable with the non pressure that he was getting from the Outside Linebackers.

That might have been a mistake but he also Sent Timmons Who should have Destroyed the Running back who stoned him.. that IMHO was just as big as Bmac getting beat on the double.

Bottom line - we were aggressive which is cool but we were sloppy on the back end.. BMAc cant bite on that - he should have given up the sideline and made the tackle, instead he Jumped the route and got whipped over the top (and people wonder why we dont press)

But with that said, this was not the same as last year.. last year we were passive and got beat down the stretch, this "TIME" we got beat attacking...

JTP53609
10-06-2010, 10:21 AM
I am still upset that we gave both the sideline and the cusion in the baltimore game...no timeouts and under a minute left we are giving them the sidelines and enough room to convert easy first downs (they only needed 40 yds)...
the reason we give the cusion that we do is to prevent balls over our head, well sure enough, a touchdown in the back of the endozone beats us, so that last drive was confusing more than anything....

But, the first qtr of the game, flacco looked perfect, our defense does what it often does, it bends but holds up inside the 30...they were slinging it down the field that first drive and then we tightened up and made them miss a long field goal. It seems like our defense needs to warm up alot of times to start a game and that was what happened last week too..

feltdizz
10-06-2010, 10:21 AM
passive or attacking D?

it doesn't matter how we get beat IMO.

The problem or should I say "worry" I have is the amount of time it takes for teams to drive on us in the hurry up O. Teams aren't using 10 to 12 play drives to beat us at the end of games. It's 3 to 5 plays and it isn't even a struggle.

When it's crunch time we need Woodley and Harrison to step up...

chiken
10-06-2010, 10:34 AM
passive or attacking D?

it doesn't matter how we get beat IMO.

The problem or should I say "worry" I have is the amount of time it takes for teams to drive on us in the hurry up O. Teams aren't using 10 to 12 play drives to beat us at the end of games. It's 3 to 5 plays and it isn't even a struggle.

When it's crunch time we need Woodley and Harrison to step up...

I'm just saying this is not the same as last year. Last year w/o Troy and Aaron we were passive - hoping for a mistake.. this "TIME" we tried to force a mistake.. we just got caught...

Dont hit the "worry" button or the "09" button just yet.. thats all.

feltdizz
10-06-2010, 10:39 AM
passive or attacking D?

it doesn't matter how we get beat IMO.

The problem or should I say "worry" I have is the amount of time it takes for teams to drive on us in the hurry up O. Teams aren't using 10 to 12 play drives to beat us at the end of games. It's 3 to 5 plays and it isn't even a struggle.

When it's crunch time we need Woodley and Harrison to step up...

I'm just saying this is not the same as last year. Last year w/o Troy and Aaron we were passive - hoping for a mistake.. this "TIME" we tried to force a mistake.. we just got caught...

Dont hit the "worry" button or the "09" button just yet.. thats all.
I'm trying not to...

with Troy blitzing and WR's being relatively wide open it certainly looked like 09.

Stewie
10-06-2010, 10:41 AM
Woodley and Harrison were the focus of their OL protection. The Blitz should have come up the middle. The one sack that we got was from Hampton, up the middle where they had drawn resources to the perimeter.

grotonsteel
10-06-2010, 10:51 AM
Its same thing happening over and over again...a.k.a 2009 season..Last minute drives to some average QB of the league. Unless we get ball hawking DBs in 2011 draft nothing is going to change.

Opposing team needs a TD with less than 2 mins to go and if your No.1 defense gives a TD its an issue. Even if we had Ben as a QB he could not have done anything.

I know Offense could have got a first down and killed the clock but if you tout yourself as a great defense you need to stop the opposing team from scoring a TD in less than 2 minutes and without TO. Also one must remember the QB was Flacco who has traditionally struggled against Steelers D.

AngryAsian
10-06-2010, 10:57 AM
Cam Cameron is top 5 OC material. He called a good game. Our D held up for most of the 4 quarters, unfortunately we just folded in the end. IMHO, this D is not like last years. We are 3-1 without Ben.... we are in good shape and I hope BB comes back pi$$ed off and ready to produce Pro-Bowl worthy performances. We won't need to worry about the D at the end if we have 14 point cushions at the end of games... something I'm sure we would of had if BB was under this past Sunday.

feltdizz
10-06-2010, 11:04 AM
Its same thing happening over and over again...a.k.a 2009 season..Last minute drives to some average QB of the league. Unless we get ball hawking DBs in 2011 draft nothing is going to change.

Opposing team needs a TD with less than 2 mins to go and if your No.1 defense gives a TD its an issue. Even if we had Ben as a QB he could not have done anything.

I know Offense could have got a first down and killed the clock but if you tout yourself as a great defense you need to stop the opposing team from scoring a TD in less than 2 minutes and without TO. Also one must remember the QB was Flacco who has traditionally struggled against Steelers D.

:Agree

once again a below average QB marches on our pass D in record time....

AngryAsian
10-06-2010, 11:07 AM
Some battles are lost, but I could give a rats ass about battles... I want the war. I wonder how our battles faired during the 2005 and 2008 seasons?

ikestops85
10-06-2010, 11:11 AM
I think some of it is a guessing game and DL guessed wrong on that last play. They were in max protect and we sent blitzers. If we were in max coverage, which is what you want when they max protect, we would have had someone over the top. That happens sometimes ... you guess wrong.

The bigger problem to me was giving up the sideline on the previous plays. We didn't even fight for it. How many years have they been taught that in that situation they have to play outside in? By not forcing them to the middle of the field the Ravens didn't even have to play hurry-up. They took their sweet old time running each play.

DkBlue
10-06-2010, 11:11 AM
LeBau is susceptible to a mistake like any other coach.

You have to think that having Troy back in the end zone would have made it hard to complete that pass.

feltdizz
10-06-2010, 11:14 AM
Some battles are lost, but I could give a rats ass about battles... I want the war. I wonder how our battles faired during the 2005 and 2008 seasons?

It's hard to see the war from afar when you have an extra week to dissect a losing battle.

papillon
10-06-2010, 11:40 AM
Woodley and Harrison were the focus of their OL protection. The Blitz should have come up the middle. The one sack that we got was from Hampton, up the middle where they had drawn resources to the perimeter.

Timmons did come on a blitz in the middle if I recall correctly. Polamalu came inside Woodley and got caught in the wash and Houshmanzadek beat BMac in an instant. Flacco was looking there all the way and made a play. Congrats to the Ravens, bad for the Steelers, it happens.

Pappy

Dee Dub
10-06-2010, 11:40 AM
...The defense struggles when teams max protect the QB thereby nulifying the pass rush which the key to our scheme....


This right here frustrates me more than anything. Do people really watch these games? Do they really not understand what is actually going on? Folks wake up and really look at whatís going on here with the Steelers defense. Sunday, like in many games they lose, the Steelers very rarely brought more than 4 pass rushers at a time. More times than not it was 3. Look at two games as an example. This game past Sunday and the game the Steelers won last year versus the Ravens. Sunday they rarely brought any pressure on Flacco and allowed for him to stand upright in the pocket with time to throw. The result?ÖFlacco pretty much had his way throwing the ball. The Steelers drop 7-8 into coverage and the Ravens receivers were still getting open. Why??...because of the time allowed Flacco in the pocket. Last years win versus the Ravens is a complete opposite of what the Steelers did on defense. The result?...the Steelers win and Flacco has a very pedestrian game. Last year they went after him. He was forced to make quick decisions and get rid of the ball sooner than he wanted too. Thus many of his targets werenít open. Why LeBeau does this is beyond me?? The strength of this team isnít its ability to coverÖbut itís ability to get after the QB. Yet there are games when he decides to do the opposite. These are usually the games the Steelers have lost in the past several years.

flippy
10-06-2010, 11:41 AM
This is a different D than 09. We just got beat in the end by a good team. Baltimore's got good receiving options and if you can't get to the QB, it's gonna be trouble.

If we're passive and lose, there's criticism. If we're aggressive and lose, there's criticism.

And the offense is allowed to convert 1st downs to help the D once in a while.

We'll be fine.

Dee Dub
10-06-2010, 11:54 AM
This is a different D than 09. We just got beat in the end by a good team. Baltimore's got good receiving options and if you can't get to the QB, it's gonna be trouble.

If we're passive and lose, there's criticism. If we're aggressive and lose, there's criticism.

And the offense is allowed to convert 1st downs to help the D once in a while.

We'll be fine.

Yes agreed...this defense is better than 09's. But Sundays game plan wasnt better on defense than it was last year when the Steelers beat the Ravens. :wink:

cruzer8
10-06-2010, 12:09 PM
passive or attacking D?

it doesn't matter how we get beat IMO.

The problem or should I say "worry" I have is the amount of time it takes for teams to drive on us in the hurry up O. Teams aren't using 10 to 12 play drives to beat us at the end of games. It's 3 to 5 plays and it isn't even a struggle.

When it's crunch time we need Woodley and Harrison to step up...

I'm just saying this is not the same as last year. Last year w/o Troy and Aaron we were passive - hoping for a mistake.. this "TIME" we tried to force a mistake.. we just got caught...

Dont hit the "worry" button or the "09" button just yet.. thats all.

Word.

NJ-STEELER
10-06-2010, 12:16 PM
i have a problem with when balt goes to max protect, why are there guys wide open? i think we still only sent 4 (maybe 5) on the GW TD. thats at least 6 covering 3 guys. there shouldn't be guys roaming around free in the secondary

when we go max protect, we barely have a receiver come open.

Dee Dub
10-06-2010, 12:22 PM
i have a problem with when balt goes to max protect, why are there guys wide open? i think we still only sent 4 (maybe 5) on the GW TD. thats at least 6 covering 3 guys. there shouldn't be guys roaming around free in the secondary

when we go max protect, we barely have a receiver come open.


See my post above. It's really not that hard to understand.

NJ-STEELER
10-06-2010, 12:40 PM
[quote="NJ-STEELER":uqrx23mu]i have a problem with when balt goes to max protect, why are there guys wide open? i think we still only sent 4 (maybe 5) on the GW TD. thats at least 6 covering 3 guys. there shouldn't be guys roaming around free in the secondary

when we go max protect, we barely have a receiver come open.


See my post above. It's really not that hard to understand.[/quote:uqrx23mu]

i agree with ur above post, but sometimes teams design (max protect) to give the QB time. and baltimore does this a lot against us. if they're keeping 7 in to block, they're thinking they can stop 6-7 that are rushing the QB.

like i said, when we do it, our receivers are blanketed.. cant see how the ravens were so open...and not just on the their TD

NorthCoast
10-06-2010, 12:51 PM
Everyone is assuming DL made the call to send both Timmons and Troy on that last play. But remember that Troy is given all kind of freedom to improvise and who is to say that it wasn't Troy that decided to blitz without DL specifically making the call? I am sure LeBeau would shoulder the blame, but it could very well have been Troy's own decision and he guessed wrong that time.

ramblinjim
10-06-2010, 01:08 PM
I didn't consider the possibility of Troy calling his own blitz, free lancing. I'm not so annoyed with the play at the end. Guys get beat, Boldin was beating us everywhere, all day long. Why wouldn't he beat us at the end of the game?

My issue is with the way we gave up the previous three plays. Flacco just seemed to be playing pitch and catch with his receivers right by the out of bounds marker.

steelblood
10-06-2010, 01:27 PM
I did notice about four or five times we went bump and run with two safeties over the top. I liked this as it disrupted Flacco's rhythm and made him pat the ball and lurch waiting for the receivers to come free. Frankly, we should use this more. Ike and McFadden have great size and physicality to throw receivers off of their routes.

As far as max-protect beating us...

It does seem effective, but in general, if we can't cover 3 receivers with 6 men, we don't belong in the playoffs. In this situation, I'd let Troy take the slot receiver in man and have the corners play inside man coverage with Gay and Clark over the top. Timmons or Farrior would be the spy for the QB or delayed routes from the back or TE.

feltdizz
10-06-2010, 01:29 PM
[quote="Dee Dub":1zz71cad][quote="NJ-STEELER":1zz71cad]i have a problem with when balt goes to max protect, why are there guys wide open? i think we still only sent 4 (maybe 5) on the GW TD. thats at least 6 covering 3 guys. there shouldn't be guys roaming around free in the secondary

when we go max protect, we barely have a receiver come open.


See my post above. It's really not that hard to understand.[/quote:1zz71cad]

i agree with ur above post, but sometimes teams design (max protect) to give the QB time. and baltimore does this a lot against us. if they're keeping 7 in to block, they're thinking they can stop 6-7 that are rushing the QB.

like i said, when we do it, our receivers are blanketed.. cant see how the ravens were so open...and not just on the their TD[/quote:1zz71cad]

and it's not like they have speed at the WR position...

all 3 WR's are considered slow by WR standards and yet they were 5 yards open. It's one thing if they are running crossing patterns but I'm watching a WR settle in the zone and the DB's are not reacting fast enough.

I will give Gay credit.. he was all over his guy we the ball was in the air and he played the crossing route in the end zone perfectly.

Eddie Spaghetti
10-06-2010, 01:35 PM
here come the "saint lebeau" comments again.

:roll:

feltdizz
10-06-2010, 01:46 PM
here come the "saint lebeau" comments again.

:roll:

:lol:

when in doubt.. blame a coordinator.