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View Full Version : Why not just take the safety??



Dee Dub
10-05-2010, 12:28 PM
With about a minute left in the game and the Steelers punting from the back of their end zone why not just have Sepulveda walk out the back end on the end zone for a safety?

Score goes to 14-12 and the Steelers get a free kick. Yes I know now all the Ravens needs is a field goal to win the game. But they had no time outs left. And it would be having them going from what should be a greater distance (with the free kick), and attempting that field goal into the open end of Heinz Field.

Just something’ that keeps rattlin around my head. :HeadBanger

feltdizz
10-05-2010, 12:34 PM
With about a minute left in the game and the Steelers punting from the back of their end zone why not just have Sepulveda walk out the back end on the end zone for a safety?

Score goes to 14-12 and the Steelers get a free kick. Yes I know now all the Ravens needs is a field goal to win the game. But they had no time outs left. And it would be having them going from what should be a greater distance (with the free kick), and attempting that field goal into the open end of Heinz Field.

Just something’ that keeps rattlin around my head. :HeadBanger

Flacco went 40 yards in 36 seconds and left another 32 seconds on the clock. FG would have been easy given our D on that last series.

Steelers>NFL
10-05-2010, 12:38 PM
Completely disagree with taking a safety.

Bottom line, Steelers get one fist down, it is OVER. Period.

But in the end, the Ravens out played the Steelers and Steelers left too many opportunities on the field.

NJ-STEELER
10-05-2010, 12:43 PM
since we'd have to pun from the 20..where would the ravens get the ball?? probably at around the 40 yd line.

that would mean 30 yards and they're in FG position. 40 yards would be great FG position.


with the punt, they would have had to drive 50 yds for a TD if there was no holding penalty. and dont forget the defense had allowed only 2 TDs in almost 4 full games to that point consdiering 2 were in garbage time

papillon
10-05-2010, 12:46 PM
I don't like the safety based on the following:

If the Steelers boom the free kick and the coverage is great, maybe the Ravens start on the 30 yard line.

If they move 40 yards from there, they're at the Steeler 30 for what would be a 47 yard FG.

The 40 yards in the middle of the field are easier to gain, because you're not limited by the back of the end zone.

This is under ideal circumstances for the Steelers. Chances are after the free kick the Ravens are on the 35 and 40 yards from there is the 25, leaving them a 42 yard FG.

Forcing them into a touchdown was the correct call, IMO.

The defense fell asleep for 4 plays. They allowed the Ravens to get OB on 3 consecutive plays. You have to keep them on the filed of play and make them spike the ball and waste downs. It just a bad defensive series all the way around.

Pappy

Dee Dub
10-05-2010, 12:49 PM
With about a minute left in the game and the Steelers punting from the back of their end zone why not just have Sepulveda walk out the back end on the end zone for a safety?

Score goes to 14-12 and the Steelers get a free kick. Yes I know now all the Ravens needs is a field goal to win the game. But they had no time outs left. And it would be having them going from what should be a greater distance (with the free kick), and attempting that field goal into the open end of Heinz Field.

Just something’ that keeps rattlin around my head. :HeadBanger

Flacco went 40 yards in 36 seconds and left another 32 seconds on the clock. FG would have been easy given our D on that last series.

I think LeBeau plays the defense differently knowing it is only a field goal that beats the Steelers. He has too.

Dee Dub
10-05-2010, 12:51 PM
since we'd have to pun from the 20..where would the ravens get the ball?? probably at around the 40 yd line.

that would mean 30 yards and they're in FG position. 40 yards would be great FG position.


with the punt, they would have had to drive 50 yds for a TD if there was no holding penalty. and dont forget the defense had allowed only 2 TDs in almost 4 full games to that point consdiering 2 were in garbage time

Since it's a free kick it can be punted. And I have seen plenty of punters cover 50-60 yards on that. Plus with the hang time it enables coverage down field.

Ghost
10-05-2010, 12:57 PM
You have the number 1 defense in the league. They'd held the birds to 1 TD all game and only a few all season. There's no reason to believe they aren't going to keep them out again.

Giving away points and making it easier to win is foolish. You won't find any coach who opts for a safety at that juncture of the game with the limited time and them not having timeouts.

The D doesn't just let them waltz into the endzone and we're not even debating this possibility.

Dee Dub
10-05-2010, 01:04 PM
You have the number 1 defense in the league. They'd held the birds to 1 TD all game and only a few all season. There's no reason to believe they aren't going to keep them out again.

Giving away points and making it easier to win is foolish. You won't find any coach who opts for a safety at that juncture of the game with the limited time and them not having timeouts.

The D doesn't just let them waltz into the endzone and we're not even debating this possibility.

I know this...however..Dick LeBeau played his defense differently on that game winning TD drive. Why is that? Think about it. You blame the players for giving up the TD all you want but if you play against the strength of the defense because you are thinking you have to guard against a TD then you are asking for trouble.

With a field goal LeBeau knows he cant let the Ravens get inside their 40 yard line. He plays the defense differently.

feltdizz
10-05-2010, 01:07 PM
[quote="Dee Dub":26y7ce0g]With about a minute left in the game and the Steelers punting from the back of their end zone why not just have Sepulveda walk out the back end on the end zone for a safety?

Score goes to 14-12 and the Steelers get a free kick. Yes I know now all the Ravens needs is a field goal to win the game. But they had no time outs left. And it would be having them going from what should be a greater distance (with the free kick), and attempting that field goal into the open end of Heinz Field.

Just something’ that keeps rattlin around my head. :HeadBanger

Flacco went 40 yards in 36 seconds and left another 32 seconds on the clock. FG would have been easy given our D on that last series.

I think LeBeau plays the defense differently knowing it is only a field goal that beats the Steelers. He has too.[/quote:26y7ce0g]

why would our FG defense be different then our TD defense?

Ghost
10-05-2010, 01:10 PM
But Dee Dub, you really have no way to know that. I was shocked he didn't put Troy back standing on the endzone to ensure someone didn't get behind a corner (exactly what happened). Who's to say LeBeau doesn't try a blitz with TP with them needing only a FG and a long pass play, much like the game winner, occurs.

For whatever reason they blitzed the safety and didn't have deep help. The defense clearly didn't hold but I think you have to play the odds and making them go all the way for a TD as oppossed to a FG has better odds. Unfortunately, odds or not, sometimes you crap out.

feltdizz
10-05-2010, 01:15 PM
You have the number 1 defense in the league. They'd held the birds to 1 TD all game and only a few all season. There's no reason to believe they aren't going to keep them out again.

Giving away points and making it easier to win is foolish. You won't find any coach who opts for a safety at that juncture of the game with the limited time and them not having timeouts.

The D doesn't just let them waltz into the endzone and we're not even debating this possibility.

I know this...however..bad word LeBeau played his defense differently on that game winning TD drive. Why is that? Think about it. You blame the players for giving up the TD all you want but if you play against the strength of the defense because you are thinking you have to guard against a TD then you are asking for trouble.

With a field goal LeBeau knows he cant let the Ravens get inside their 40 yard line. He plays the defense differently.

This makes zero sense... we were burned for a TD... you can't say we wouldn't be burned for the 45 to 50 yards needed for a FG. It's not like are DB's were draped over the WR's and they made great catches... they were wide open and able to walk out of bounds without getting touched.

The Ravens used the Brady manual in beating the LeBeau zone. Just throw short outs 10 yards at a time and you can march down the field with ease.

It's not like Flacco threw the TD as time expired. it only took 36 seconds.

feltdizz
10-05-2010, 01:18 PM
But Dee Dub, you really have no way to know that. I was shocked he didn't put Troy back standing on the endzone to ensure someone didn't get behind a corner (exactly what happened). Who's to say LeBeau doesn't try a blitz with TP with them needing only a FG and a long pass play, much like the game winner, occurs.

For whatever reason they blitzed the safety and didn't have deep help. The defense clearly didn't hold but I think you have to play the odds and making them go all the way for a TD as oppossed to a FG has better odds. Unfortunately, odds or not, sometimes you crap out.

Exactly... the way the game ended I wouldn't have been surprised if we gave them a safety and still gave up a TD.

Dee Dub
10-05-2010, 01:18 PM
[quote="Dee Dub":2gpu9i65]With about a minute left in the game and the Steelers punting from the back of their end zone why not just have Sepulveda walk out the back end on the end zone for a safety?

Score goes to 14-12 and the Steelers get a free kick. Yes I know now all the Ravens needs is a field goal to win the game. But they had no time outs left. And it would be having them going from what should be a greater distance (with the free kick), and attempting that field goal into the open end of Heinz Field.

Just something’ that keeps rattlin around my head. :HeadBanger

Flacco went 40 yards in 36 seconds and left another 32 seconds on the clock. FG would have been easy given our D on that last series.

I think LeBeau plays the defense differently knowing it is only a field goal that beats the Steelers. He has too.

why would our FG defense be different then our TD defense?[/quote:2gpu9i65]

Simple. Go back and watch the tape of that last drive. Look at how LeBeau had his defense for the three plays prior to the TD catch. I personally think he plays his secondary a little tighter and those 3 short completions. He has too. He isnt playing prevent. He cant knowing they need to only get to about the Steeler 40-45 yard line. And plus the Ravens probably play their offense different too...knowing they need to get only a field goal.

feltdizz
10-05-2010, 01:52 PM
if we funneled the WR's inside and made them eat clock and Flacco pulled it out with no time left I could see your point.... however they moved with ease on us...

I still have some reservations about this pass D when we need one stop and there is a minute and some change on the clock.

RuthlessBurgher
10-05-2010, 02:03 PM
if we funneled the WR's inside and made them eat clock and Flacco pulled it out with no time left I could see your point.... however they moved with ease on us...

I still have some reservations about this pass D when we need one stop and there is a minute and some change on the clock.

Giving up the sidelines on the 2nd and 3rd plays of that drive are what did us in. Although they got some yardage on the 1st play, I was fine with it, since it forced the clock to run and they had no timeouts. Tick...tick...tick... If we funneled each play inside after that, the outcome may have been different.

feltdizz
10-05-2010, 02:06 PM
if we funneled the WR's inside and made them eat clock and Flacco pulled it out with no time left I could see your point.... however they moved with ease on us...

I still have some reservations about this pass D when we need one stop and there is a minute and some change on the clock.

Giving up the sidelines on the 2nd and 3rd plays of that drive are what did us in. Although they got some yardage on the 1st play, I was fine with it, since it forced the clock to run and they had no timeouts. Tick...tick...tick... If we funneled each play inside after that, the outcome may have been different.

No time outs and you give up the sideline twice? Inexcusable.

Dee Dub
10-05-2010, 02:20 PM
Giving up the sidelines on the 2nd and 3rd plays of that drive are what did us in....

That is exactly my point. I guarantee you LeBeau plays his defense differently if it was the Steelers own 40 yard line they were protecting.

Relentless7
10-05-2010, 02:36 PM
if we funneled the WR's inside and made them eat clock and Flacco pulled it out with no time left I could see your point.... however they moved with ease on us...

I still have some reservations about this pass D when we need one stop and there is a minute and some change on the clock.

The worst part to me was... this wasn't just a "last minute of the game" occurrence. Our pass D was soft ALL game long. The deep middle was open on damn near every single play, as were both sidelines about 10 yards down the field.

I fully understand zone is our bread and butter, but there is no excuse for leaving that many area's of the field wide open when you're generating next to no pressure on the QB with 3 and 4 man rushes.

BradshawsHairdresser
10-05-2010, 02:48 PM
if we funneled the WR's inside and made them eat clock and Flacco pulled it out with no time left I could see your point.... however they moved with ease on us...

I still have some reservations about this pass D when we need one stop and there is a minute and some change on the clock.

The worst part to me was... this wasn't just a "last minute of the game" occurrence. Our pass D was soft ALL game long. The deep middle was open on damn near every single play, as were both sidelines about 10 yards down the field.

I fully understand zone is our bread and butter, but there is no excuse for leaving that many area's of the field wide open when you're generating next to no pressure on the QB with 3 and 4 man rushes.

$$$$
Our D may be ranked well statistically, but I fear the same issues that we had last year are going to come back to bite us this season. Just having Troy and Smith back is not enough. We need better schematic adjustments during crunch time.

flippy
10-05-2010, 02:52 PM
I've been reading how good Sepulveda is around here lately.

That was a situation where we coulda really used a big punt and didn't get it. As usual games in Pittsburgh and temp starts to get cooler and Sepulveda becomes average at best and his worst punts are when we're backed up and really need him.

Relentless7
10-05-2010, 03:00 PM
I've been reading how good Sepulveda is around here lately.

That was a situation where we coulda really used a big punt and didn't get it. As usual games in Pittsburgh and temp starts to get cooler and Sepulveda becomes average at best and his worst punts are when we're backed up and really need him.

He kicked it 60 yards in the air!

PLUS he had to rush it because we were so backed up. There are a TON of guys to lay some blame on for this loss. but to put Sep. in that category is just downright disturbing to me.

RuthlessBurgher
10-05-2010, 04:12 PM
I've been reading how good Sepulveda is around here lately.

That was a situation where we coulda really used a big punt and didn't get it. As usual games in Pittsburgh and temp starts to get cooler and Sepulveda becomes average at best and his worst punts are when we're backed up and really need him.

He kicked it 60 yards in the air!

PLUS he had to rush it because we were so backed up. There are a TON of guys to lay some blame on for this loss. but to put Sep. in that category is just downright disturbing to me.

Yeah, no kidding. The two false starts that doomed that possession and pinned Sepulveda's heels to the back line of the end zone, plus the holding call during the punt itself, were to blame for giving Baltimore field position at our 40 yard line. Sepulveda's kick itself was absolutely CLUTCH considering the circumstances.

Sepulveda's punting average this season is 2nd in the AFC (4th in the NFL) and only a half-yard behind overall leader and 5 time Pro Bowler Shane Lechler. That means that based on his performance so far this season, Sepulveda would be on track for a Pro Bowl birth, if only the consensus best punter of the decade didn't also play for an AFC team.

feltdizz
10-05-2010, 04:17 PM
Giving up the sidelines on the 2nd and 3rd plays of that drive are what did us in....

That is exactly my point. I guarantee you LeBeau plays his defense differently if it was the Steelers own 40 yard line they were protecting.

40 yard line vs. goal line

anyway you flip it LeBeau had a line to protect and the players failed to protect it. You make it sound like the 40 is harder to get to then the GL.

I beg to differ.

Stewie
10-05-2010, 04:19 PM
No safety.

NJ-STEELER
10-05-2010, 04:55 PM
[quote="NJ-STEELER":20wmqo9o]since we'd have to pun from the 20..where would the ravens get the ball?? probably at around the 40 yd line.

that would mean 30 yards and they're in FG position. 40 yards would be great FG position.


with the punt, they would have had to drive 50 yds for a TD if there was no holding penalty. and dont forget the defense had allowed only 2 TDs in almost 4 full games to that point consdiering 2 were in garbage time

Since it's a free kick it can be punted. And I have seen plenty of punters cover 50-60 yards on that. Plus with the hang time it enables coverage down field.[/quote:20wmqo9o]

a 60 yard punt has them catching the ball on the 20 yd line with 10 blockers ahead of him setting a return up...not like a true punt return.. it would take a layman's effort from the ST to keep him from at least a 15 yard gain. and if they get any semblence of a good return its near midfield....so what exactly have you gained??

Dee Dub
10-05-2010, 07:26 PM
[quote="Dee Dub":244vpxw4][quote="NJ-STEELER":244vpxw4]since we'd have to pun from the 20..where would the ravens get the ball?? probably at around the 40 yd line.

that would mean 30 yards and they're in FG position. 40 yards would be great FG position.


with the punt, they would have had to drive 50 yds for a TD if there was no holding penalty. and dont forget the defense had allowed only 2 TDs in almost 4 full games to that point consdiering 2 were in garbage time

Since it's a free kick it can be punted. And I have seen plenty of punters cover 50-60 yards on that. Plus with the hang time it enables coverage down field.[/quote:244vpxw4]

a 60 yard punt has them catching the ball on the 20 yd line with 10 blockers ahead of him setting a return up...not like a true punt return.. it would take a layman's effort from the ST to keep him from at least a 15 yard gain. and if they get any semblence of a good return its near midfield....so what exactly have you gained??[/quote:244vpxw4]

Average hang time in the NFL on a punt with pressure coming is about 4.6 seconds. As a free kick without pressure the Special Teams unit would be closer to the ball carrier than they would be on a kick off. I think the coverage team would be ok on a free kick. :wink:

Eddie Spaghetti
10-05-2010, 07:52 PM
anyway you flip it LeBeau had a line to protect and the players failed to protect it. You make it sound like the 40 is harder to get to then the GL.

I beg to differ.

gonna have to disagree here.

obviously, there is less ground to defend as you get closer to the goal line. even though it's a line, you still have to worry about defending the rest of the field if that line is the 40. the back of the endzone doesn't have to be defended because it's out of play(obviously) maybe i am reading your post wrong.

taking a safety would have been the wrong move IMO.

winwithd
10-05-2010, 11:08 PM
When we had the ball and were backed up in our own end, I was thinking we should pass. Then I remembered that a holding call in the end zone was a safety. And then a FG would beat us. That was the main reason I thought we shouldn't pass.

I thought I heard Suggs or another defender in an interview say they knew we were going to run the ball three times to kill some clock. Seems there should be something you can run other then Mendy up the middle.

SteelAbility
10-05-2010, 11:11 PM
I think the safety/punt has much merit ... given that the Ravens had no timeouts. It would put them farther away and make the last couple of plays (before the FG kick) much more predictable as they couldn't afford going into the middle of the field and risk the clock running out. It just may have bought the extra play combined with predictability necessary to save the day.

And, there are two more factors ...

1. Hang out in the EZ as long as possible, running maybe 6 or 7 seconds off the clock as the kicker runs to the corner and always has the option of purposely fumbling out the back of the EZ.

2. Our kicker has a booming leg. With an unmolested opportunity to kick, I could see Sep putting 60 to 65 yards on the kick with lots of hang time.

stlrz d
10-05-2010, 11:58 PM
Hindsight can be a very bad thing in the hands of the wrong people.

NJ-STEELER
10-06-2010, 12:00 AM
[quote="NJ-STEELER":1zrxcarg][quote="Dee Dub":1zrxcarg][quote="NJ-STEELER":1zrxcarg]since we'd have to pun from the 20..where would the ravens get the ball?? probably at around the 40 yd line.

that would mean 30 yards and they're in FG position. 40 yards would be great FG position.


with the punt, they would have had to drive 50 yds for a TD if there was no holding penalty. and dont forget the defense had allowed only 2 TDs in almost 4 full games to that point consdiering 2 were in garbage time

Since it's a free kick it can be punted. And I have seen plenty of punters cover 50-60 yards on that. Plus with the hang time it enables coverage down field.[/quote:1zrxcarg]

a 60 yard punt has them catching the ball on the 20 yd line with 10 blockers ahead of him setting a return up...not like a true punt return.. it would take a layman's effort from the ST to keep him from at least a 15 yard gain. and if they get any semblence of a good return its near midfield....so what exactly have you gained??[/quote:1zrxcarg]

Average hang time in the NFL on a punt with pressure coming is about 4.6 seconds. As a free kick without pressure the Special Teams unit would be closer to the ball carrier than they would be on a kick off. I think the coverage team would be ok on a free kick. :wink:[/quote:1zrxcarg]


so, not much differnet then a kickoff is what i'm thinking your trying to say here, right?

whats an average KO return? 20 yards or so?

yeah, you're still over thinking this

Jooser
10-06-2010, 12:00 AM
Atta boy d.
:Agree

chiken
10-06-2010, 06:52 AM
"Taking" a safety is probably not the way to go - but Not being afraid of getting a Safety might be a better way of putting it. Running the Ball 3 times against the Ravens who knew you were running (w/o a fullback) was basically saying we dont want a first down. I think the the odds were Great that we could have caught them flat footed with play-action (If Ben were there we would have)

I think We should have dropped Batch into the End Zone and Hoped he could hit Heath or Spaeth.. first down, game over or at least some breathing room.

Worst case: incomplete on 1st down stop the clock - they get 20 more seconds (though in hindsite WE get 20 more Seconds)
or a Safety- Niether result meant the end of the world.

We played the last 2 minutes to lose..

on offense We didnt try to get a 1st down (not honestly) and on defense we played some kind of Prevent making it super easy for them to get down field using the sidelines.

(and Again we looked gassed on the passrush - which is why i think he sent Troy (or why Troy Sent Troy)

steeler_fan_in_t.o.
10-06-2010, 09:37 AM
You have the number 1 defense in the league. They'd held the birds to 1 TD all game and only a few all season. There's no reason to believe they aren't going to keep them out again.

Giving away points and making it easier to win is foolish. You won't find any coach who opts for a safety at that juncture of the game with the limited time and them not having timeouts.

The D doesn't just let them waltz into the endzone and we're not even debating this possibility.

I know this...however..bad word LeBeau played his defense differently on that game winning TD drive. Why is that? Think about it. You blame the players for giving up the TD all you want but if you play against the strength of the defense because you are thinking you have to guard against a TD then you are asking for trouble.

With a field goal LeBeau knows he cant let the Ravens get inside their 40 yard line. He plays the defense differently.

Lebau may also play D differently if the offense has 50 yards to go instead of 40. Hindsight is wonderful but did you factor in a penalty on the free kick the way we got one on the punt?

The only reason that this was a bad call was because they marched the field. If we free kick and they go in for a 35 yard yard field goal then we screwed up by taking the safety.

Dee Dub
10-06-2010, 12:18 PM
[quote="Dee Dub":29mulsb2][quote="NJ-STEELER":29mulsb2][quote="Dee Dub":29mulsb2][quote="NJ-STEELER":29mulsb2]since we'd have to pun from the 20..where would the ravens get the ball?? probably at around the 40 yd line.

that would mean 30 yards and they're in FG position. 40 yards would be great FG position.


with the punt, they would have had to drive 50 yds for a TD if there was no holding penalty. and dont forget the defense had allowed only 2 TDs in almost 4 full games to that point consdiering 2 were in garbage time

Since it's a free kick it can be punted. And I have seen plenty of punters cover 50-60 yards on that. Plus with the hang time it enables coverage down field.[/quote:29mulsb2]

a 60 yard punt has them catching the ball on the 20 yd line with 10 blockers ahead of him setting a return up...not like a true punt return.. it would take a layman's effort from the ST to keep him from at least a 15 yard gain. and if they get any semblence of a good return its near midfield....so what exactly have you gained??[/quote:29mulsb2]

Average hang time in the NFL on a punt with pressure coming is about 4.6 seconds. As a free kick without pressure the Special Teams unit would be closer to the ball carrier than they would be on a kick off. I think the coverage team would be ok on a free kick. :wink:[/quote:29mulsb2]


so, not much differnet then a kickoff is what i'm thinking your trying to say here, right?

whats an average KO return? 20 yards or so?

yeah, you're still over thinking this[/quote:29mulsb2]

Uhhhhhhh...you are forgetting the hang time which on a punt allows for the special teams to cover.

Dee Dub
10-06-2010, 12:20 PM
I think the safety/punt has much merit ... given that the Ravens had no timeouts. It would put them farther away and make the last couple of plays (before the FG kick) much more predictable as they couldn't afford going into the middle of the field and risk the clock running out. It just may have bought the extra play combined with predictability necessary to save the day.

And, there are two more factors ...

1. Hang out in the EZ as long as possible, running maybe 6 or 7 seconds off the clock as the kicker runs to the corner and always has the option of purposely fumbling out the back of the EZ.

2. Our kicker has a booming leg. With an unmolested opportunity to kick, I could see Sep putting 60 to 65 yards on the kick with lots of hang time.

Cha-ching!

NJ-STEELER
10-06-2010, 12:20 PM
[quote="Dee Dub":11cuxu5d][quote="NJ-STEELER":11cuxu5d][quote="Dee Dub"nce we'd have to pun from the 20..where would the ravens get the ball?? probably at around the 40 yd line.

that would mean 30 yards and they're in FG position. 40 yards would be great FG position.


with the punt, they would have had to drive 50 yds for a TD if there was no holding penalty. and dont forget the defense had al

Since it's a free kick it can be punted. And I have seen plenty of punters cover 50-60 yards on that. Plus with the hang time it enables coverage down field.

a 60 yard punt has them catching the ball on the 20 yd line with 10 blockers ahead of him setting a return up...not like a true punt return.. it would take a layman's effort from the ST to keep him from at least a 15 yard gain. and if they get any semblence of a good return its near midfield....so what exactly have you gained??[/quote:11cuxu5d]

Average hang time in the NFL on a punt with pressure coming is about 4.6 seconds. As a free kick without pressure the Special Teams unit would be closer to the ball carrier than they would be on a kick off. I think the coverage team would be ok on a free kick. :wink:[/quote:11cuxu5d]


so, not much differnet then a kickoff is what i'm thinking your trying to say here, right?

whats an average KO return? 20 yards or so?

yeah, you're still over thinking this[/quote:11cuxu5d]

Uhhhhhhh...you are forgetting the hang time which on a punt allows for the special teams to cover.

what would u say is the average return after a safety then?

NJ-STEELER
10-06-2010, 12:23 PM
"Taking" a safety is probably not the way to go - but Not being afraid of getting a Safety might be a better way of putting it. Running the Ball 3 times against the Ravens who knew you were running (w/o a fullback) was basically saying we dont want a first down. I think the the odds were Great that we could have caught them flat footed with play-action (If Ben were there we would have)

I think We should have dropped Batch into the End Zone and Hoped he could hit Heath or Spaeth.. first down, game over or at least some breathing room.

Worst case: incomplete on 1st down stop the clock - they get 20 more seconds (though in hindsite WE get 20 more Seconds)
or a Safety- Niether result meant the end of the world.

We played the last 2 minutes to lose..

on offense We didnt try to get a 1st down (not honestly) and on defense we played some kind of Prevent making it super easy for them to get down field using the sidelines.

(and Again we looked gassed on the passrush - which is why i think he sent Troy (or why Troy Sent Troy)

worse case scenario is actuaaly a sack, fumble TD... like they got earlier in the game before a penalty brought it back

or an INT

Dee Dub
10-06-2010, 12:24 PM
[quote="NJ-STEELER":1kmqm1vr][quote="Dee Dub":1kmqm1vr][quote="NJ-STEELER":1kmqm1vr][quote="Dee Dub"nce we'd have to pun from the 20..where would the ravens get the ball?? probably at around the 40 yd line.

that would mean 30 yards and they're in FG position. 40 yards would be great FG position.


with the punt, they would have had to drive 50 yds for a TD if there was no holding penalty. and dont forget the defense had al

Since it's a free kick it can be punted. And I have seen plenty of punters cover 50-60 yards on that. Plus with the hang time it enables coverage down field.

a 60 yard punt has them catching the ball on the 20 yd line with 10 blockers ahead of him setting a return up...not like a true punt return.. it would take a layman's effort from the ST to keep him from at least a 15 yard gain. and if they get any semblence of a good return its near midfield....so what exactly have you gained??[/quote:1kmqm1vr]

Average hang time in the NFL on a punt with pressure coming is about 4.6 seconds. As a free kick without pressure the Special Teams unit would be closer to the ball carrier than they would be on a kick off. I think the coverage team would be ok on a free kick. :wink:[/quote:1kmqm1vr]


so, not much differnet then a kickoff is what i'm thinking your trying to say here, right?

whats an average KO return? 20 yards or so?

yeah, you're still over thinking this[/quote:1kmqm1vr]

Uhhhhhhh...you are forgetting the hang time which on a punt allows for the special teams to cover.[/quote:1kmqm1vr]

what would u say is the average return after a safety then?

I dont have those numbers but from what I have seen over the years most of those arent even returned. They fair catch them because the coverage teams is down the field. They are usually close enough to smell their breathe.

NJ-STEELER
10-06-2010, 12:34 PM
i think you're completely wrong. especially if you want a 60-65 yd punt.

usually with a punter, you get one or another. not many can boom a punt that far and still get the hang time you speak of.

i'm trying to remember the giants game from a few years ago and thought they started near midfiled after harrison sanpped the ball out of the endzone

Dee Dub
10-06-2010, 12:45 PM
i think you're completely wrong. especially if you want a 60-65 yd punt.

usually with a punter, you get one or another. not many can boom a punt that far and still get the hang time you speak of.

i'm trying to remember the giants game from a few years ago and thought they started near midfiled after harrison sanpped the ball out of the endzone

NJ, that was Mitch Berger. Please dont go there. :nono

ramblinjim
10-06-2010, 12:54 PM
I'm actually with chicken on this. Knowing hindsight is always 20/20 of course.

Put Batch in the shotgun with Mendy back there with him. Batch drops back, looks for either Hines, Miller, Mendy or Spaeth, if no one's open and he feels the pressure he simply steps out of the back of the end zone.

this is, of course, all with the advantage of hindsight.

Good debate though.

cruzer8
10-06-2010, 02:07 PM
Purposely taking a safety is not the way to go in that situation. Since the OP is using hindsight, let us also apply foresight.

If we take a safety and the Ravens end up kicking a game winning FG people would be starting threads titled, "Why take the safety?"

So there. :P

aggiebones
10-08-2010, 12:21 PM
I can't believe this question has gone 3 pages.

Simple, hell no, you don't allow a FG to beat you. You can speculate all you want about Lebeau altering his mindset all you want, but that's not reality.

Baltimore was desperate there and they actually had a pretty good play design and the players executed it pretty well. We had a bad play call against the play, but it happens. No WAY do we take a safety. People would have called for his head if he had. And not just unhappy fans, the media, etc. It would have been as dumb as Belicheck going for it on his own 20 to try and seal a game.

And more importantly Dee Dub, you would have been first in here saying he should have punted and forced them to score a TD.

proudpittsburgher
10-08-2010, 12:45 PM
I can't believe this question has gone 3 pages.

Simple, hell no, you don't allow a FG to beat you. You can speculate all you want about Lebeau altering his mindset all you want, but that's not reality.

Baltimore was desperate there and they actually had a pretty good play design and the players executed it pretty well. We had a bad play call against the play, but it happens. No WAY do we take a safety. People would have called for his head if he had. And not just unhappy fans, the media, etc. It would have been as dumb as Belicheck going for it on his own 20 to try and seal a game.

And more importantly Dee Dub, you would have been first in here saying he should have punted and forced them to score a TD.

You can tell we are on a bye week. :shock: You don't stop the clock in that situation (pass), and you don't make it a 2-point game (safety). You can "what if" all you want about icing the game with a first down . . . whatever. It's not the smart thing to do, which is all you can ask of your coach. What is the smart thing to do, you ask? You do what they did. Run the ball, let the clock move, make the Ravens burn their timeouts, and keep them out of the end zone. We acomplished all of the above, sans the last part. Which would be why people are still talking about this. :roll: Honesltly, people debate this over and over with limited results, but yet they are sure that Arians sucks. Really?

feltdizz
10-08-2010, 01:27 PM
I can't believe this question has gone 3 pages.

Simple, hell no, you don't allow a FG to beat you. You can speculate all you want about Lebeau altering his mindset all you want, but that's not reality.

Baltimore was desperate there and they actually had a pretty good play design and the players executed it pretty well. We had a bad play call against the play, but it happens. No WAY do we take a safety. People would have called for his head if he had. And not just unhappy fans, the media, etc. It would have been as dumb as Belicheck going for it on his own 20 to try and seal a game.

And more importantly Dee Dub, you would have been first in here saying he should have punted and forced them to score a TD.

You can tell we are on a bye week. :shock: You don't stop the clock in that situation (pass), and you don't make it a 2-point game (safety). You can "what if" all you want about icing the game with a first down . . . whatever. It's not the smart thing to do, which is all you can ask of your coach. What is the smart thing to do, you ask? You do what they did. Run the ball, let the clock move, make the Ravens burn their timeouts, and keep them out of the end zone. We acomplished all of the above, sans the last part. Which would be why people are still talking about this. :roll: Honesltly, people debate this over and over with limited results, but yet they are sure that Arians sucks. Really?

:Clap