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View Full Version : RAVENS - Setup the run by the pass....Thoughts?



jj28west
09-27-2010, 08:30 PM
This looks a$$ backwards but Peyton Hillas just ran for almost 150 yards against Baltimore this past week. Add that we just ran for 200 against the Bucs so it would make sense that we would want to try to establish the run.

Problem is the Ravens were embarrased about what happened and will be watching film of the Steelers running at will gaining yardage on a stacked box.

Dont get me wrong, I think this may be the 1st time I see the Steelers with decent numbers in the ground game against the Ravens (sorry Willie). Its just that we may have to open things up a bit with the pass early to achieve this.

Either way please Charlie if the safety bites on the play action throw it as far as you can to so Wallace could run under one.

SanAntonioSteelerFan
09-27-2010, 10:30 PM
Isn't there secondary bunged up? Heck, I'd do what you say, and watch us get a quick 21 points through the air ...

papillon
09-27-2010, 11:53 PM
The secondary is missing Ed Reed and their starting corner back (Foxworth I think), but their defense is better than the Falcons, Titans and Bucs. If the Steelers don't give their defense respect and just come out slinging it because Batch had a decent game against the Bucs that is a recipe for disaster. The Steelers are playing with house money right now.

Don't lose the game early by trying to win it in the first quarter, take what the Ravens give you and try to establish the running game. Let Sepulveda do his thing and keep the field position in our favor. This game is going to be vastly different than the Bucs game.

Don't be surprised to see a bit more conservsative game plan this week.

Pappy

The Answer
09-28-2010, 07:18 AM
With the Ravens struggling their first three games, and the Steelers beating three apparently quality teams, us at home, and only 1-1/2 point favs, I'm looking for the Ravens defense to win a close one here.

JUST-PLAIN-NASTY
09-28-2010, 08:50 AM
The Ravens weakness is in their defensive backfield...No doubt. However, I don't think the gameplan with Batch will be to target it. I believe they will attack the front 7 like they have done through the first three weeks. Challenge them to put 8 in the box on 1st & 2nd down and get them with playaction. I don't think this will be a gameplan any of the BA haters will like. Our defense should keep them in check & make them kick field goals. I believe the gameplan will be a game of field position.

That will be how they approach the game. That being said, I believe the Steelers will be pleasantly surprised how they move the ball on the ground if they stay with it & don't abandon the run. I think they will have to walk a safety up all the time and have to play 1st & 2nd down with a single high S. Off playaction, the S will be eat'n up by Wallace and I expect Ward & Miller to be able to work underneath. As I said before, the Ravens defense wears down the longer they are on the field. It is a "heavyweight" defense if you will. They can hit you hard and look for the knockout early. But if you weather the storm, protect yourself, and counter with body shots...They will wear down.

3 & out early is not a bad thing. Stay with the run and work off it in playaction. Have to take a shot down field with Wallace in double coverage off playaction. 2-3 times you have to go up top to show you are willing to do that. And Arians, you are doing a good job helping out your QB with posting Wallace but mix it up more with a post/corner. You listened to me last week, :wink: , & Wallace's 2nd TD was a corner route. This should be real effective this week against an attacking Ravens D.

If it stays a 1 posession game, I don't expect anything but a "vanilla" gameplan to run the ball or high percentage pass plays to get the Steelers to 3rd & 1-4. Convert some 3rd downs & play defense. Trying to open it up & run away from them with Batch is high risk & low reward. Scoring opportunites will be there with some big plays off of playaction and I expect a big play in the return game. The defense has created Flacco turnovers in the past so have confidence that they will get some more.

SteelAbility
09-28-2010, 09:35 AM
We have simply not run well against the Ravens for several years now. Yes, we have to set up the run with the pass. As mentioned, Ed Reed is out and their secondary is weak. Strike at the weakness to make your opponent more aware of it. Then you can take his focus off of his strength.

JUST-PLAIN-NASTY
09-28-2010, 10:53 AM
We have simply not run well against the Ravens for several years now. Yes, we have to set up the run with the pass. As mentioned, Ed Reed is out and their secondary is weak. Strike at the weakness to make your opponent more aware of it. Then you can take his focus off of his strength.

Use your weakness (Last in PYPG) to strike at their weakness (Ravens #1 against Pass)...Good plan! I like it. :shock: We know the Ravens so we can look past the stats. The Ravens front 7 is better than their secondary right now. Stats are misleading possibly because week 3 and opponents. But this isn't misleading...Steelers #3 RYPG and Ravens defense #23 against rush.


I would be incredibly shocked if the Steelers come out aginst the Ravens with their #4 QB and sling it. If Ben was in there, absolutely. The reference you used "several years" is exactly why they go the other route. This is not an untested foe. This is a division rival which we know alot about and they know us. Our strength right now through three games is our defense and run game. We haven't shown this ability to run in "several years".The OL is performing very well. Why take the team out of its comfort zone and risk turnovers and play from behind. I don't see the logic. Only take yourself out of your comfort zone if you have to. I don't think the Steelers will unless the fall behind by more than 2 posessions early or down by 2 posession late in the 3rd.

SteelAbility
09-28-2010, 11:38 AM
We have simply not run well against the Ravens for several years now. Yes, we have to set up the run with the pass. As mentioned, Ed Reed is out and their secondary is weak. Strike at the weakness to make your opponent more aware of it. Then you can take his focus off of his strength.

Use your weakness (Last in PYPG) to strike at their weakness (Ravens #1 against Pass)...Good plan! I like it. :shock: We know the Ravens so we can look past the stats. The Ravens front 7 is better than their secondary right now. Stats are misleading possibly because week 3 and opponents. But this isn't misleading...Steelers #3 RYPG and Ravens defense #23 against rush.


I would be incredibly shocked if the Steelers come out aginst the Ravens with their #4 QB and sling it. If Ben was in there, absolutely. The reference you used "several years" is exactly why they go the other route. This is not an untested foe. This is a division rival which we know alot about and they know us. Our strength right now through three games is our defense and run game. We haven't shown this ability to run in "several years".The OL is performing very well. Why take the team out of its comfort zone and risk turnovers and play from behind. I don't see the logic. Only take yourself out of your comfort zone if you have to. I don't think the Steelers will unless the fall behind by more than 2 posessions early or down by 2 posession late in the 3rd.

The Ravens have historically shut down our running game. Even when FWP was hitting on all cylinders, he was averaging well under 3.0 YPC against the Ravens. Apparently they match up very well in that department against us. Match Up. That's the key. The only team we really ran well against was TB. But we also passed very well against TB (to the tune of 10.9 YPA, which is off the charts). We did not run well against ATL. We got a fluke 50 yarder from Mendy in OT because a Falcon defender got into a position that allowed David Johnson to block two guys with one blow. You can't rely on that. If Reed hits the game-ending FG, Mendy finishes 21/70 (3.3 YPC). Mendy was 23/69 against TEN (3 YPC). Batch is in rhythm.

The Ravens run vs. pass is skewed by a few factors.

1. Week 1 against the Jets who are a run-centered team and a Jets D that could keep getting 3 and out, putting the Ravens D on the field alot.

2. Week 3 against the Browns who have two 4th string quality QBs and even worse receivers. Hence they had to run.

3. Flacco and the O are having a very difficult time moving the ball, keeping the D on the field alot.

JUST-PLAIN-NASTY
09-28-2010, 02:18 PM
The Ravens have historically shut down our running game. Even when FWP was hitting on all cylinders, he was averaging well under 3.0 YPC against the Ravens. Apparently they match up very well in that department against us. Match Up. That's the key. The only team we really ran well against was TB. But we also passed very well against TB (to the tune of 10.9 YPA, which is off the charts). We did not run well against ATL. We got a fluke 50 yarder from Mendy in OT because a Falcon defender got into a position that allowed David Johnson to block two guys with one blow. You can't rely on that. If Reed hits the game-ending FG, Mendy finishes 21/70 (3.3 YPC). Mendy was 23/69 against TEN (3 YPC). Batch is in rhythm.

The Ravens run vs. pass is skewed by a few factors.

1. Week 1 against the Jets who are a run-centered team and a Jets D that could keep getting 3 and out, putting the Ravens D on the field alot.

2. Week 3 against the Browns who have two 4th string quality QBs and even worse receivers. Hence they had to run.

3. Flacco and the O are having a very difficult time moving the ball, keeping the D on the field alot.

Going to the stats!!! :P
I agreed about your "historical" reference. But this OL is playing better than a Hartwig lead OL. 450 yards with a 4.7 Avg. No matter how you slice it is production. These are numbers being put up with 8 & 9 in the box with no sense of urgency to defend the pass. When they get the sense of urgency....You get a 200 yard game. (Bucs)

To say a "fluke" play is ridiculous . That the nature of the game. That stuff happens every play. Is it discredited because something like that happens? No. Guy falls...Wasn't really a TD cause he would have made the tackle. Guy gets picked by his own guy and the WR catches a long pass...No really a TD cause his own guy knocked him off the WR. Unblocked LB runs into the back of his teammate being blocked and RB takes it for a TD...Not really a TD cause the LB ran into his own guy. That was just dumb. That's a comment that somebody that never played the game in the trenches says after looking at the stats and was on the losing end.

Let's look at those games.
Game 1. Sanchez was 10/21 (47.6%) for 74 yards 0 TD/0 INT Sanchez's other 2 games he is 36/58 (62%) for 476 yards 6 TD / 0 INT. I would say the Ravens pass defense might of had something to do with...Would you? I agree the Jets went 3 & out alot that game. And familiarity could have alot to do with it but I think you have to give the Ravens pass D some kind of credit.

Game 2. Palmer 16/35 (45.7%) for 167 yards 0 TD/0 INT You didn't mention game 2.

Game 3. Wallace 18/24 (75%) for 141 yards 1 TD/0 INT Now your theory would hold water but the 4th string QB who played was the most efficient QB to play through 3 games. The fact they had to run, as you said, should have been known to the Ravens. Yet the Browns piled up 28/173 for a 6 YPC.

To your point 3, wouldn't that be a contradiction to your point? The D being on the field alot might skew the defensive stats showing the defense giving up alot of yards because the offense keeps giving the ball back allowing opposing offense extra chances. Not sure where you wanted to go with that.

However, that is not the case. The Ravens offense is 10th in the league in plays from scrimmage. They are 7th in the league in 3rd down conversions. To the one stats we all love, 10th in the league in TOP.

The Ravens pass defense ranks 6th best in the league in completion %. 7th best in QB efficiency. 9th best in TOP allowed. Here comes some really solid stats. The Ravens D ranks first in plays of 20+ allowed, 40+ allowed (T), pass TDS allowed (T), YPG, AVG per pass, 1st down passes allowed, 3rd down % & 1st down %. There are 4 teams (Giants, Raiders, & Packers) who have less attempts per game than the Ravens. The Ravens beat them in every statistical category except Sacks & Ints. All 3 of the above mentioned teams are listed in the Top 10 of yards allowed.

Is it skewed? I believe in some way it is because their rush defense has not been that good. But there are some statistical categories in the pass defenses that are arguably still valid.

SteelAbility
09-28-2010, 03:09 PM
The Ravens have historically shut down our running game. Even when FWP was hitting on all cylinders, he was averaging well under 3.0 YPC against the Ravens. Apparently they match up very well in that department against us. Match Up. That's the key. The only team we really ran well against was TB. But we also passed very well against TB (to the tune of 10.9 YPA, which is off the charts). We did not run well against ATL. We got a fluke 50 yarder from Mendy in OT because a Falcon defender got into a position that allowed David Johnson to block two guys with one blow. You can't rely on that. If Reed hits the game-ending FG, Mendy finishes 21/70 (3.3 YPC). Mendy was 23/69 against TEN (3 YPC). Batch is in rhythm.

The Ravens run vs. pass is skewed by a few factors.

1. Week 1 against the Jets who are a run-centered team and a Jets D that could keep getting 3 and out, putting the Ravens D on the field alot.

2. Week 3 against the Browns who have two 4th string quality QBs and even worse receivers. Hence they had to run.

3. Flacco and the O are having a very difficult time moving the ball, keeping the D on the field alot.

Going to the stats!!! :P
I agreed about your "historical" reference. But this OL is playing better than a Hartwig lead OL. 450 yards with a 4.7 Avg. No matter how you slice it is production. These are numbers being put up with 8 & 9 in the box with no sense of urgency to defend the pass. When they get the sense of urgency....You get a 200 yard game. (Bucs)

To say a "fluke" play is ridiculous . That the nature of the game. That stuff happens every play. Is it discredited because something like that happens? No. Guy falls...Wasn't really a TD cause he would have made the tackle. Guy gets picked by his own guy and the WR catches a long pass...No really a TD cause his own guy knocked him off the WR. Unblocked LB runs into the back of his teammate being blocked and RB takes it for a TD...Not really a TD cause the LB ran into his own guy. That was just dumb. That's a comment that somebody that never played the game in the trenches says after looking at the stats and was on the losing end.

Let's look at those games.
Game 1. Sanchez was 10/21 (47.6%) for 74 yards 0 TD/0 INT Sanchez's other 2 games he is 36/58 (62%) for 476 yards 6 TD / 0 INT. I would say the Ravens pass defense might of had something to do with...Would you? I agree the Jets went 3 & out alot that game. And familiarity could have alot to do with it but I think you have to give the Ravens pass D some kind of credit.

Game 2. Palmer 16/35 (45.7%) for 167 yards 0 TD/0 INT You didn't mention game 2.

Game 3. Wallace 18/24 (75%) for 141 yards 1 TD/0 INT Now your theory would hold water but the 4th string QB who played was the most efficient QB to play through 3 games. The fact they had to run, as you said, should have been known to the Ravens. Yet the Browns piled up 28/173 for a 6 YPC.

To your point 3, wouldn't that be a contradiction to your point? The D being on the field alot might skew the defensive stats showing the defense giving up alot of yards because the offense keeps giving the ball back allowing opposing offense extra chances. Not sure where you wanted to go with that.

However, that is not the case. The Ravens offense is 10th in the league in plays from scrimmage. They are 7th in the league in 3rd down conversions. To the one stats we all love, 10th in the league in TOP.

The Ravens pass defense ranks 6th best in the league in completion %. 7th best in QB efficiency. 9th best in TOP allowed. Here comes some really solid stats. The Ravens D ranks first in plays of 20+ allowed, 40+ allowed (T), pass TDS allowed (T), YPG, AVG per pass, 1st down passes allowed, 3rd down % & 1st down %. There are 4 teams (Giants, Raiders, & Packers) who have less attempts per game than the Ravens. The Ravens beat them in every statistical category except Sacks & Ints. All 3 of the above mentioned teams are listed in the Top 10 of yards allowed.

Is it skewed? I believe in some way it is because their rush defense has not been that good. But there are some statistical categories in the pass defenses that are arguably still valid.

Match Up. The Ravens match up well with us in the run. Their front 7 has had the better of that for years. I doubt that the transition to Pouncey is going to take away that dominance. My number one point is match up.

As for the other points, we are talking about a small sample set of games here. The point of the Mendy "fluke" 50-yarder is that you can't rely on it. Furthermore it happened in OT, where the opposing D is more tired than normal.

Outside of the Bucs game, the run game was sub-par. The Bucs were overmatched and were starting a rookie (Gerald McCoy who is known more for pass-rush than run D). When our opponent has not been overmatched we have done !$%!@#$ in the run game.

ATL gives up 5.1 YPC (if you don't count the Steelers it's more like 5.6 YPC)
TEN gives up 4.4 YPC (if you don't count the Steelers it's more like 4.9 YPC)
BAL gives up 4.7 YPC (in non-Steeler games. Therfore you can EXPECT about the same YPC against BAL that dominated in the ATL and TEN games ... i.e. ... SUCK, about 3.1-3.3 YPC ... you MIGHT get a 50 yarder, I don't dispute that, but the percentages are against it)

This comparison, along with our historical problems running against Baltimore don't bode well for trying to set up the pass with the run.

JUST-PLAIN-NASTY
09-28-2010, 03:43 PM
Match Up. The Ravens match up well with us in the run. Their front 7 has had the better of that for years. I doubt that the transition to Pouncey is going to take away that dominance. My number one point is match up.

As for the other points, we are talking about a small sample set of games here. The point of the Mendy "fluke" 50-yarder is that you can't rely on it. Furthermore it happened in OT, where the opposing D is more tired than normal.

Outside of the Bucs game, the run game was sub-par. The Bucs were overmatched and were starting a rookie (Gerald McCoy who is known more for pass-rush than run D). When our opponent has not been overmatched we have done !$%!@#$ in the run game.

ATL gives up 5.1 YPC (if you don't count the Steelers it's more like 5.6 YPC)
TEN gives up 4.4 YPC (if you don't count the Steelers it's more like 4.9 YPC)
BAL gives up 4.7 YPC (in non-Steeler games. Therfore you can EXPECT about the same YPC against BAL that dominated in the ATL and TEN games ... i.e. ... SUCK, about 3.1-3.3 YPC ... you MIGHT get a 50 yarder, I don't dispute that, but the percentages are against it)

This comparison, along with our historical problems running against Baltimore don't bode well for trying to set up the pass with the run.

They have done well against our run...I'm not disputing that. You are missing the point. I'm not talking about a Roethlisberger run offense. The game plan will be different if he was back there. If you are going to compare those defenses against our run output without BB and say it sucks....You don't understand how it works. NO team we played gameplaned against the Steelers the same way they would have if BB was at QB. Just not a realistic assumption.

The Steelers run game was anything but sub-par through the first three games. You must not have watched the games in its entirety. There was nothing even close to resembling the Steelers run game over the past 3 years....Regardless of stats. If you are watching the Steelers run game right now and taking into account the QB situation, what they are doing is down right impressive. Not only is the numbers impressive, but the way they are finishing blocks, the nastiness they are playing with, and the fact that they are rotating 7 OL in game to battle the heat over the last 2 games....Has to be commended. Don't take my word for it. Watch Chalk Talk. Mendy's long run came against a 9 man front. Closest you will get to a coaches meeting.

http://www.steelers.com/video-and-audio ... 7838e1d7cd (http://www.steelers.com/video-and-audio/videos/Chalk-Talk---at-Buccaneers-Week-3/d176a682-1f0a-4dce-8242-377838e1d7cd)

SteelAbility
09-28-2010, 03:55 PM
Match Up. The Ravens match up well with us in the run. Their front 7 has had the better of that for years. I doubt that the transition to Pouncey is going to take away that dominance. My number one point is match up.

As for the other points, we are talking about a small sample set of games here. The point of the Mendy "fluke" 50-yarder is that you can't rely on it. Furthermore it happened in OT, where the opposing D is more tired than normal.

Outside of the Bucs game, the run game was sub-par. The Bucs were overmatched and were starting a rookie (Gerald McCoy who is known more for pass-rush than run D). When our opponent has not been overmatched we have done !$%!@#$ in the run game.

ATL gives up 5.1 YPC (if you don't count the Steelers it's more like 5.6 YPC)
TEN gives up 4.4 YPC (if you don't count the Steelers it's more like 4.9 YPC)
BAL gives up 4.7 YPC (in non-Steeler games. Therfore you can EXPECT about the same YPC against BAL that dominated in the ATL and TEN games ... i.e. ... SUCK, about 3.1-3.3 YPC ... you MIGHT get a 50 yarder, I don't dispute that, but the percentages are against it)

This comparison, along with our historical problems running against Baltimore don't bode well for trying to set up the pass with the run.

They have done well against our run...I'm not disputing that. You are missing the point. I'm not talking about a Roethlisberger run offense. The game plan will be different if he was back there. If you are going to compare those defenses against our run output without BB and say it sucks....You don't understand how it works. NO team we played gameplaned against the Steelers the same way they would have if BB was at QB. Just not a realistic assumption.

The Steelers run game was anything but sub-par through the first three games. You must not have watched the games in its entirety. There was nothing even close to resembling the Steelers run game over the past 3 years....Regardless of stats. If you are watching the Steelers run game right now and taking into account the QB situation, what they are doing is down right impressive. Not only is the numbers impressive, but the way they are finishing blocks, the nastiness they are playing with, and the fact that they are rotating 7 OL in game to battle the heat over the last 2 games....Has to be commended. Don't take my word for it. Watch Chalk Talk. Mendy's long run came against a 9 man front. Closest you will get to a coaches meeting.

http://www.steelers.com/video-and-audio ... 7838e1d7cd (http://www.steelers.com/video-and-audio/videos/Chalk-Talk---at-Buccaneers-Week-3/d176a682-1f0a-4dce-8242-377838e1d7cd)

I watched the entirety of the first two games. Outside of the 50-yarder in OT in game 1, our run game was doing nothing. You can say "nastiness" all day, but in the end (without the OT run in game 1) Mendy was 44 rushes for 139 yards. That SUCKS. The only way it doesn't suck is if you can run for your average EVERY SINGLE TIME. Then it's actually awesome, because the average is over 2.5 YPC and you can simply plow down the field at will, converting 4th downs over and over because you know you can achive your average.

JUST-PLAIN-NASTY
09-28-2010, 04:18 PM
Match Up. The Ravens match up well with us in the run. Their front 7 has had the better of that for years. I doubt that the transition to Pouncey is going to take away that dominance. My number one point is match up.

As for the other points, we are talking about a small sample set of games here. The point of the Mendy "fluke" 50-yarder is that you can't rely on it. Furthermore it happened in OT, where the opposing D is more tired than normal.

Outside of the Bucs game, the run game was sub-par. The Bucs were overmatched and were starting a rookie (Gerald McCoy who is known more for pass-rush than run D). When our opponent has not been overmatched we have done !$%!@#$ in the run game.

ATL gives up 5.1 YPC (if you don't count the Steelers it's more like 5.6 YPC)
TEN gives up 4.4 YPC (if you don't count the Steelers it's more like 4.9 YPC)
BAL gives up 4.7 YPC (in non-Steeler games. Therfore you can EXPECT about the same YPC against BAL that dominated in the ATL and TEN games ... i.e. ... SUCK, about 3.1-3.3 YPC ... you MIGHT get a 50 yarder, I don't dispute that, but the percentages are against it)

This comparison, along with our historical problems running against Baltimore don't bode well for trying to set up the pass with the run.

They have done well against our run...I'm not disputing that. You are missing the point. I'm not talking about a Roethlisberger run offense. The game plan will be different if he was back there. If you are going to compare those defenses against our run output without BB and say it sucks....You don't understand how it works. NO team we played gameplaned against the Steelers the same way they would have if BB was at QB. Just not a realistic assumption.

The Steelers run game was anything but sub-par through the first three games. You must not have watched the games in its entirety. There was nothing even close to resembling the Steelers run game over the past 3 years....Regardless of stats. If you are watching the Steelers run game right now and taking into account the QB situation, what they are doing is down right impressive. Not only is the numbers impressive, but the way they are finishing blocks, the nastiness they are playing with, and the fact that they are rotating 7 OL in game to battle the heat over the last 2 games....Has to be commended. Don't take my word for it. Watch Chalk Talk. Mendy's long run came against a 9 man front. Closest you will get to a coaches meeting.

http://www.steelers.com/video-and-audio ... 7838e1d7cd (http://www.steelers.com/video-and-audio/videos/Chalk-Talk---at-Buccaneers-Week-3/d176a682-1f0a-4dce-8242-377838e1d7cd)

I watched the entirety of the first two games. Outside of the 50-yarder in OT in game 1, our run game was doing nothing. You can say "nastiness" all day, but in the end (without the OT run in game 1) Mendy was 44 rushes for 139 yards. That SUCKS. The only way it doesn't suck is if you can run for your average EVERY SINGLE TIME. Then it's actually awesome, because the average is over 2.5 YPC and you can simply plow down the field at will, converting 4th downs over and over because you know you can achive your average.
Must be the first 2 games you watched in a long time...or ever. Regardless of the output, the run game was effective. You keep pulling out the 50 yard run and not counting the Buc game...It's hilarious how you just want to trim the fat to make your point. If you know football, you watch the games, and been a Steeler fan....You know this is a more potent running attack the Steelers have seen in a long time. Only numbers that matter:
96/450 4.7

Since you are so good at the "take away" game...I will do it for your amusement. If you take away the Steelers games from the 3 teams we played, the rushing defense ranking would be:
Falcons (7th)
Bucs (13th)
Titans(20th)