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feltdizz
09-09-2010, 09:00 PM
on 3rd and 2.

BA gets bashed for it but everyone thinks Sean Payton is a guru.

Didn't the Saints have an empty backfield on their first TD on 3rd and 2?

Sugar
09-09-2010, 09:23 PM
I really don't have a problem with it... if it works. :wink:

NJ-STEELER
09-09-2010, 09:28 PM
i dont like it much either, but most every team is doing it, including the better teams.


its a trend you see offenses going to, and i think we'll see more of it this year too. i too question complaining about it cause its something every OC likes to do.

it was funny 2 years ago when 'idiot arians' ran 4 straight times form the 1 yard line with mchugh lead blocking and we couldn't score and then see even more complaining about arian's offense.

cant win either way, i guess

feltdizz
09-09-2010, 09:35 PM
i dont like it much either, but most every team is doing it, including the better teams.


its a trend you see offenses going to, and i think we'll see more of it this year too. i too question complaining about it cause its something every OC likes to do.

it was funny 2 years ago when 'idiot arians' ran 4 straight times form the 1 yard line with mchugh lead blocking and we couldn't score and then see even more complaining about arian's offense.

cant win either way, i guess

Most of the OC's people covet are doing this.

Dallas does it a ton... Eagles do it the most... Saints as well... Colts probably do it

Crash
09-09-2010, 09:40 PM
What's funny is everyone claims we had an empty backfield in Cleveland on that 3rd and 1 on the first drive when we didn't.

It's like Mendenhall vanished or something.

Btw, in SB XL? on that 3rd and goal and Ben threw that pick? Empty backfield.

Where were the complaints then?

stlrz d
09-09-2010, 09:46 PM
What works for one team doesn't necessarily work for another.

BURGH86STEEL
09-09-2010, 10:04 PM
on 3rd and 2.

BA gets bashed for it but everyone thinks Sean Payton is a guru.

Didn't the Saints have an empty backfield on their first TD on 3rd and 2?

I am not a big fan of the empty backfield. I am not going to say the OC is an idiot because he decides to go empty backfield on any down and distance. There are reasons why they decide to run that particular formation and play. I've been paying attention to fans long enough to know that any play that does not work (poorly executed), is going to be questioned by fans. That could be on 3rd and 1 run, 3rd and 1 pass, or any other down and distance.

DukieBoy
09-09-2010, 10:13 PM
One problem with our empty backfield sets is that the opponent passrushers have no concern for runstopping, and our O-line becomes even more vulnerable to the pass rush. The Saints O-line looks built for pass protection, and Brees gets the ball out quickly and has some mobility.

stlrz d
09-09-2010, 10:29 PM
One problem with our empty backfield sets is that the opponent passrushers have no concern for runstopping, and our O-line becomes even more vulnerable to the pass rush. The Saints O-line looks built for pass protection, and Brees gets the ball out quickly and has some mobility.

*ding*

If our line could pass block like the Saints line it could be an effective weapon for us.

At least go single back for cripe's sake! You can still run the back to the flat *after* the snap.

feltdizz
09-10-2010, 09:41 AM
Just pointing out that the OC's people reference as good are using empty backfields on 3rd and short.

feltdizz
09-10-2010, 09:48 AM
One problem with our empty backfield sets is that the opponent passrushers have no concern for runstopping, and our O-line becomes even more vulnerable to the pass rush. The Saints O-line looks built for pass protection, and Brees gets the ball out quickly and has some mobility.

Everyone who runs the empty set is tipping their hand to the D.

ANPSTEEL
09-10-2010, 10:56 AM
One problem with our empty backfield sets is that the opponent passrushers have no concern for runstopping, and our O-line becomes even more vulnerable to the pass rush. The Saints O-line looks built for pass protection, and Brees gets the ball out quickly and has some mobility.

Going empty set is almost all on the QB and the OLine.

The QB has to read and get the ball out quick- say 2-3 seconds.

The OLine has to hold up.

Neither are gimmies for the Steelers.

Brees was working some magic last night with his cadence. Getting Minn to show their D, and letting Brees make good pre-snap reads.

This is also something, I'm convinced, that isn't Ben's strength.

SidSmythe
09-10-2010, 11:48 AM
You're going to point out 1 play to justify an empty backfield. Then I will justify against it on one play. When EJ Henderson blitzed, the tackle had to drop down inside leaving the DE w/ a free shot at Brees for a sack. Collinsworth even called it out

Brees also gets rid of the ball much faster than Ben
but if you wanna leave ur QB exposed, have at it. You can't defend a 5 man blitz w/ an empty backfield. the odds are against you. Especially when u move out a RB who's not a true receiving threat.

feltdizz
09-10-2010, 02:02 PM
You're going to point out 1 play to justify an empty backfield. Then I will justify against it on one play. When EJ Henderson blitzed, the tackle had to drop down inside leaving the DE w/ a free shot at Brees for a sack. Collinsworth even called it out

Brees also gets rid of the ball much faster than Ben
but if you wanna leave ur QB exposed, have at it. You can't defend a 5 man blitz w/ an empty backfield. the odds are against you. Especially when u move out a RB who's not a true receiving threat.

I'm not justifying the play. Just pointing out what the other highly touted OC's who many on here adore are doing with their backfields on 3rd and short.

The empty set is run for a reason... OC's know the odds but they also know the advantages or they wouldn't run it.

It's one play out of many... some work and some don't.

cruzer8
09-10-2010, 02:57 PM
Smart OC's who know they have the personnel to run it use it effectively. Dumb OC's who don't have the personnel to run it use it ineffectively. Smart OC's who don't have the personnel to run it don't use it.

feltdizz
09-10-2010, 03:03 PM
Smart OC's who know they have the personnel to run it use it effectively. Dumb OC's who don't have the personnel to run it use it ineffectively. Smart OC's who don't have the personnel to run it don't use it.

You don't think Ben is good enough to pass out of the empty set? Is it because he holds the ball too long? :stirpot

It's all about the QB getting the ball out before the blitzer gets a shot at him. The OL doesn't even have to hold their blocks as long as they do under other passing circumstances.

ter1230_4
09-10-2010, 04:03 PM
Everyone who runs the empty set is tipping their hand to the D.

One problem with our empty backfield sets is that the opponent passrushers have no concern for runstopping, and our O-line becomes even more vulnerable to the pass rush. The Saints O-line looks built for pass protection, and Brees gets the ball out quickly and has some mobility.

Everyone who runs the empty set is tipping their hand to the D.

And this is why I absolutely hate the empty backfield set on a 3rd and short (2 yards or less). One of the major advantages that the offense has before the ball is snapped is that the defense doesn't know whether the play will be a pass or a run. They have to be prepared for both. But when there is an empty backfield the defense already knows before the snap that it will be a pass play, so the offense has surrendered that advantage. Maybe I'm not very bright, but I just don't understand what advantage the offense gains by going empty backfield that is sufficient to overcome the fact that the defense knows before the snap that it's going to be a pass play.

RuthlessBurgher
09-10-2010, 04:16 PM
One problem with our empty backfield sets is that the opponent passrushers have no concern for runstopping, and our O-line becomes even more vulnerable to the pass rush. The Saints O-line looks built for pass protection, and Brees gets the ball out quickly and has some mobility.

Everyone who runs the empty set is tipping their hand to the D.

Normally, this is true. However, in this first month with Dixon at the helm, that is not necessarily the case. Dixon can just as easily run the ball himself out of the empty set as he can pass it.

feltdizz
09-10-2010, 04:21 PM
One problem with our empty backfield sets is that the opponent passrushers have no concern for runstopping, and our O-line becomes even more vulnerable to the pass rush. The Saints O-line looks built for pass protection, and Brees gets the ball out quickly and has some mobility.

Everyone who runs the empty set is tipping their hand to the D.

Normally, this is true. However, in this first month with Dixon at the helm, that is not necessarily the case. Dixon can just as easily run the ball himself out of the empty set as he can pass it.

My only point was that other OC's run this formation on 3rd and short. People were talking like other OC's would never do such a thing last year.

feltdizz
09-10-2010, 04:23 PM
Everyone who runs the empty set is tipping their hand to the D.

One problem with our empty backfield sets is that the opponent passrushers have no concern for runstopping, and our O-line becomes even more vulnerable to the pass rush. The Saints O-line looks built for pass protection, and Brees gets the ball out quickly and has some mobility.

Everyone who runs the empty set is tipping their hand to the D.

And this is why I absolutely hate the empty backfield set on a 3rd and short (2 yards or less). One of the major advantages that the offense has before the ball is snapped is that the defense doesn't know whether the play will be a pass or a run. They have to be prepared for both. But when there is an empty backfield the defense already knows before the snap that it will be a pass play, so the offense has surrendered that advantage. Maybe I'm not very bright, but I just don't understand what advantage the offense gains by going empty backfield that is sufficient to overcome the fact that the defense knows before the snap that it's going to be a pass play.

I have no idea who started the trend but it's been going on for a few years now.

RuthlessBurgher
09-10-2010, 04:24 PM
One problem with our empty backfield sets is that the opponent passrushers have no concern for runstopping, and our O-line becomes even more vulnerable to the pass rush. The Saints O-line looks built for pass protection, and Brees gets the ball out quickly and has some mobility.

Everyone who runs the empty set is tipping their hand to the D.

Normally, this is true. However, in this first month with Dixon at the helm, that is not necessarily the case. Dixon can just as easily run the ball himself out of the empty set as he can pass it.

My only point was that other OC's run this formation on 3rd and short. People were talking like other OC's would never do such a thing last year.

In the case of the Saints last night, I think they had a better shot having an empty backfield with Colston, Meachem, Henderson, Moore, and Bush all split out wide against a weakened Viking secondary than trying to run Pierre Thomas up the gut of the Williams Wall on short yardage situations.

grotonsteel
09-10-2010, 04:31 PM
Smart OC's who know they have the personnel to run it use it effectively. Dumb OC's who don't have the personnel to run it use it ineffectively. Smart OC's who don't have the personnel to run it don't use it.

You don't think Ben is good enough to pass out of the empty set? Is it because he holds the ball too long? :stirpot

It's all about the QB getting the ball out before the blitzer gets a shot at him. The OL doesn't even have to hold their blocks as long as they do under other passing circumstances.

Or is it because your WRs can't get open?

grotonsteel
09-10-2010, 04:33 PM
One problem with our empty backfield sets is that the opponent passrushers have no concern for runstopping, and our O-line becomes even more vulnerable to the pass rush. The Saints O-line looks built for pass protection, and Brees gets the ball out quickly and has some mobility.

Everyone who runs the empty set is tipping their hand to the D.

Normally, this is true. However, in this first month with Dixon at the helm, that is not necessarily the case. Dixon can just as easily run the ball himself out of the empty set as he can pass it.

My only point was that other OC's run this formation on 3rd and short. People were talking like other OC's would never do such a thing last year.

In the case of the Saints last night, I think they had a better shot having an empty backfield with Colston, Meachem, Henderson, Moore, and Bush all split out wide against a weakened Viking secondary than trying to run Pierre Thomas up the gut of the Williams Wall on short yardage situations.


:Agree

cruzer8
09-10-2010, 04:51 PM
Smart OC's who know they have the personnel to run it use it effectively. Dumb OC's who don't have the personnel to run it use it ineffectively. Smart OC's who don't have the personnel to run it don't use it.

You don't think Ben is good enough to pass out of the empty set? Is it because he holds the ball too long? :stirpot

It's all about the QB getting the ball out before the blitzer gets a shot at him. The OL doesn't even have to hold their blocks as long as they do under other passing circumstances.

Or is it because your WRs can't get open?

Absolutely not. That would never be a factor.

/sarcasm

Discipline of Steel
09-10-2010, 06:22 PM
Percy Harvin had a nice run out of the MT backfield last night. He came from the right slot, sweeped left, and caught the Saints off guard.

feltdizz
09-10-2010, 06:55 PM
Smart OC's who know they have the personnel to run it use it effectively. Dumb OC's who don't have the personnel to run it use it ineffectively. Smart OC's who don't have the personnel to run it don't use it.

You don't think Ben is good enough to pass out of the empty set? Is it because he holds the ball too long? :stirpot

It's all about the QB getting the ball out before the blitzer gets a shot at him. The OL doesn't even have to hold their blocks as long as they do under other passing circumstances.

Or is it because your WRs can't get open?

you guys are hilarious.... it's not your Ben or my WR's... it could be a number of things but does this mean th OC should be fired because we missed the playoffs after a SB?

We have the personnel but we had a few games where they didn't execute. It happens after a SB victory.... I just think it's hilarious how we can't do anything on offense but we had a 4000 yard QB, 2 WR's over 1000 and a RB wth 1200 yards.

People need to admit some plays work and some don't depending on execution, talent, blitz etc. Maybe if fans stopped screaming for BA to be fired after every play they would realize he isn't as bad as they make him out to be.

ikestops85
09-10-2010, 07:11 PM
Smart OC's who know they have the personnel to run it use it effectively. Dumb OC's who don't have the personnel to run it use it ineffectively. Smart OC's who don't have the personnel to run it don't use it.

You don't think Ben is good enough to pass out of the empty set? Is it because he holds the ball too long? :stirpot

It's all about the QB getting the ball out before the blitzer gets a shot at him. The OL doesn't even have to hold their blocks as long as they do under other passing circumstances.

Or is it because your WRs can't get open?

you guys are hilarious.... it's not your Ben or my WR's... it could be a number of things but does this mean th OC should be fired because we missed the playoffs after a SB?

We have the personnel but we had a few games where they didn't execute. It happens after a SB victory.... I just think it's hilarious how we can't do anything on offense but we had a 4000 yard QB, 2 WR's over 1000 and a RB wth 1200 yards.

People need to admit some plays work and some don't depending on execution, talent, blitz etc. Maybe if fans stopped screaming for BA to be fired after every play they would realize he isn't as bad as they make him out to be.

That may be so but it doesn't make him good. We need to find a good OC, not one who is "eh". We have many weapons on this team and for once I would like to see the OC use them.

Stewie
09-11-2010, 11:19 AM
Sean Payton has one of the best interior OLs in the league (Did you see the NO guards destroy Minnesota's vaunted Williams brothers Thursday night?). We don't. Any penetration in the middle spells doom with an empty backfield, not to mention limited options.

SanAntonioSteelerFan
09-11-2010, 01:07 PM
I remember Brady just shredding us one, or maybe two, playoff games, setting up empty backfield and completing 6 yard passes over and over again against our 10- yard LeBeau cushion.

My gut feeling is those were more on 1st and 2nd down than 3rd, giving them a lot more options on 3rd and 2 or 3.

We seem to like to call it on 3rd and goal, or even 3rd and long, and don't seem to succeed very often. and I can see where those might not be as good situations to call the empty backfield formation.

grotonsteel
09-11-2010, 01:22 PM
Smart OC's who know they have the personnel to run it use it effectively. Dumb OC's who don't have the personnel to run it use it ineffectively. Smart OC's who don't have the personnel to run it don't use it.

You don't think Ben is good enough to pass out of the empty set? Is it because he holds the ball too long? :stirpot

It's all about the QB getting the ball out before the blitzer gets a shot at him. The OL doesn't even have to hold their blocks as long as they do under other passing circumstances.

Or is it because your WRs can't get open?

you guys are hilarious.... it's not your Ben or my WR's... it could be a number of things but does this mean th OC should be fired because we missed the playoffs after a SB?

We have the personnel but we had a few games where they didn't execute. It happens after a SB victory.... I just think it's hilarious how we can't do anything on offense but we had a 4000 yard QB, 2 WR's over 1000 and a RB wth 1200 yards.

People need to admit some plays work and some don't depending on execution, talent, blitz etc. Maybe if fans stopped screaming for BA to be fired after every play they would realize he isn't as bad as they make him out to be.

First of all i blame Dick Lebeau and Steelers D for last season 9-7 record. Steelers could have done a lot better if Defense had showed up all 4Q against piss poor teams.

Never said fire BA....i think he is a decent OC with a potential to become great if he can improve red zone efficiency and stop thinking too much.

I was just pointing out why 3rd and short with empty backfield will never work for Steelers.

Turnstile O-line (Hartwig,Kemo the brain fart and Essex),WRs who take 5 min to get open and failure to execute screen passes are the main reason for 3rd and short failure with empty backfield rather than Ben holding the ball too long.