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SteelTorch
09-01-2010, 09:48 AM
...And it's not what you may think.

~ 8:09*

Which means we controlled the ball for more than half the period.

A lot of fans claim our time of possession in the fourth quarter is why we lost so many games. We passed too much and didn't run the ball enough to control the clock. But with this in mind, can we still honestly say that our time of possession was what killed us? We were third in the league in ToP overall.

My opinion: no. The passing attack wasn't to blame; it was our defense playing poorly. Who knows, the ToP may have been even better were it not for our poor O-line and inefficient offense. I fear we may be focusing too much on running the ball, and not on what caused such poor play on defense. Hopefully, whatever it was got fixed.



*I did some calculating of my own, so this isn't exact, but it's a very good estimate. Does anyone know if there's a place I can find a stat like this? I tried pro-football reference and NFL.com, but no luck.

grotonsteel
09-01-2010, 10:30 AM
Again even if TOP was 5 min in 4th Q i would still blame the defense.

If you think you are a top notch defense in this league you don't give 80 yard drives or last second TD to backup QBs in NFL.

Its one thing to get shredded by Peyton,Tom, A Rodgers or Drew Brees of the league but by Palmer,Gradkowski, Cassell, Cutler,etc..etc..that has to hurt the Steelers D pride.

Again lets hope its all because of injuries to Aaron Smith and Troy P but Steelers D will have to play way better if Steelers need to win atleast 2 games during Big Ben suspension.

I hate that stupid 10 yard cushion to WR. It did not work last season.

flippy
09-01-2010, 10:36 AM
How much do we score in the 4th quarter?

We need to score more TDs and convert in the redzone. I hold the offense just as responsible for not scoring enough points and not converting enough 3rd downs.

papillon
09-01-2010, 10:37 AM
...And it's not what you may think.

~ 8:09*

Which means we controlled the ball for more than half the period.

A lot of fans claim our time of possession in the fourth quarter is why we lost so many games. We passed too much and didn't run the ball enough to control the clock. But with this in mind, can we still honestly say that our time of possession was what killed us? We were third in the league in ToP overall.

My opinion: no. The passing attack wasn't to blame; it was our defense playing poorly. Who knows, the ToP may have been even better were it not for our poor O-line and inefficient offense. I fear we may be focusing too much on running the ball, and not on what caused such poor play on defense. Hopefully, whatever it was got fixed.



*I did some calculating of my own, so this isn't exact, but it's a very good estimate. Does anyone know if there's a place I can find a stat like this? I tried pro-football reference and NFL.com, but no luck.

The TOP may seem like a good number, but the effectiveness of the possessions has to be taken into account. How many possessions in the 4th quarter were time consuming, but no points were gained? How many drives stalled, resulting in a punt and poor coverage giving the opposing offense decent to good field position. If you want to grind up time in the NFL the ground game is the best way to accomplish this and the Steelers struggled with short yardage early and late.

I don't blame the offense as much as the defense in 2009, but the offense wasn't efficient enough in finishing drives for points early or late in games. If a couple more drives end in points instead of nothing the Steelers have a different story to tell. The red zone was really the Steelers' achilles heel, IMO.

Pappy

Oviedo
09-01-2010, 11:30 AM
The defense last year cost us the play offs. No excuses can be made. based on what we saw Sunday night against the Broncos don't expect much to change this season either.

Our oppoents have figured out that we have trouble with a quick, short pass passing game. We will see lots of it this season.

ikestops85
09-01-2010, 11:39 AM
Again even if TOP was 5 min in 4th Q i would still blame the defense.

If you think you are a top notch defense in this league you don't give 80 yard drives or last second TD to backup QBs in NFL.

Its one thing to get shredded by Peyton,Tom, A Rodgers or Drew Brees of the league but by Palmer,Gradkowski, Cassell, Cutler,etc..etc..that has to hurt the Steelers D pride.

Again lets hope its all because of injuries to Aaron Smith and Troy P but Steelers D will have to play way better if Steelers need to win atleast 2 games during Big Ben suspension.

I hate that stupid 10 yard cushion to WR. It did not work last season.

That cushion drives me crazy also but it worked pretty damn well in 2008. I don't think it was the system last year that went bad ... it was how the players played that system that stunk.

The D had very few big plays last year where the year before we seemed to have lots in almost every game. I think this defensive philosophy is based on the offense needing many plays to drive down the field and score. It bets that the offense can't do that without making a mistake. The reason it is successful is executing a 12 play drive without making a mistake isn't easy when max pressure is applied.

However, if you don't apply the pressure consistently you can get picked apart by any NFL caliber QB ... not just the good ones. To me the difference between 2008 when our defense was one of the greatest of all times and last year when it wasn't up to par was the pressure. Not the sack total, but the quick pressure on the QB. We get that back and we again have a shot at the title. If we don't then the offense is going to have to step it up big time for us to even make the playoffs.

Crash
09-01-2010, 11:40 AM
A lot of fans claim our time of possession in the fourth quarter is why we lost so many games.

That's what they claim.

But that's not what happened.

Here is why they missed the playoffs, all in the 4th quarter:

The Steelers take the lead in KC, up 7 points.

Next KC drive:

Eight plays 91 yards, touchdown.

The Steelers take the lead against the Raiders.

Next Raider drive:

Three plays, 81 yards, touchdown.

The Steelers take the lead again.

Next Raider drive:

10 plays 88 yards, touchdown.

The Steelers score a TD to take the lead in Baltimore (No Ben by the way so you can't blame evil pass happy Ben for not playing "Stiller Football").

Next Ravens drive:

10 plays 84 yards, game tying FG after allowing 17 yards on 3rd and 22 and then a big gain on 4th and 5.

But because people are too worried about our image and protecting our defense's reputation, these 4th quarter facts, are ignored.

I even had one media scribe ask me: "How many 4th quarter interceptions did Ben throw to help blow those leads?"

The interceptions that Ben threw in the 4th quarter are listed below:





























-

Ghost
09-01-2010, 11:45 AM
You can say the O didn't score enough but how many games did they hand the D the lead in the 4th quarter?

Gradkowski for the Raiders looked like the second coming of Montana against the D.

27 points put up by KC (one of the three worst teams in the league last season).

4th and 10 for the Bengals and a back up fullback makes a first? Ridiculous!

The Defense plays better and the Steelers make the playoffs. Plain and simple.

At this point you just have to pray Troy P and Aaron S really were the main deficiencies in the D last season and this year they stay healthy.

SteelCrazy
09-01-2010, 11:48 AM
Crash, didnt D Dixon throw a pic at the end of the game against B-More to end our chances of winning? The whole freaking team is responsible for the season we had, not just the D. Also, for how many years has the D out-performed the O.....lol,. finish with the 5th best D and its their fault we go 9-7, Puh leeze!

Crash
09-01-2010, 11:52 AM
Here is the full exchange between me and Paul Zeise:


Zeise.....

How many of the blown leads were a direct result of a poorly thrown ball by Ben Roethlisberger which was picked off? I can think of at least one bad interception in every one of their blown lead games.

Guess what - if you are running the ball and punting, you aren't giving short fields.

Bill Cowher's philosophy was boring and wasn't always fun too watch, but it was effective in holding leads.

Crash


How many of the blown leads were a direct result of a poorly thrown ball by Ben Roethlisberger which was picked off?

You tell me Paul. I know the answer.

I just gave you three examples during the 5 game losing streak in which the Steelers offense SCORED 4TH QUARTER TOUCHDOWNS, only to see the defense give the lead right back when they went back on the field.

Ben Roethlisberger has also not thrown one pick in the 4th quarter all year. That's the issue here Paul, the 4th quarter defense.

Now you talk about short fields hurting the defense because of their offense.

The Steelers take the lead in KC, up 7 points.

Next KC drive:

Eight plays 91 yards, touchdown.

The Steelers take the lead against the Raiders.

Next Raider drive:

Three plays, 81 yards, touchdown.

The Steelers take the lead again.

Next Raider drive:

10 plays 88 yards, touchdown.

The Steelers score a TD to take the lead in Baltimore (No Ben by the way).

Next Ravens drive:

10 plays 84 yards, game tying FG.

Jeff Reed misses a 4th quarter FG up 7 in Chicago.

Next Bears drive?

9 plays, 72 yards, touchdown.

The Steelers up 20-9 in the 4th punt the ball to the Bengals in Cincy (This after trying to run the ball twice doing what you wanted).

Next Bengals drive:

6 plays 85 yards, touchdown to cut the lead to five points.

The Steelers run twice from their own 38 yard line, punt up 20-15.

Next Bengals drive:

16 plays 71 yards, touchdown.

Where are these short field drives that hurts the defense Paul? They don't exist. If anything the longer drives are killing the offenses chances to come back because there is no time left on the clock for the most part. Which is exactly why Mike Tomlin kicked that on-sides kick against the Packers. He figured if they were going to score on a short field, they would at least get the ball back.

They did, and they won.

Crash
09-01-2010, 11:54 AM
Crash, didnt D Dixon throw a pic at the end of the game against B-More to end our chances of winning?

In OT he did.

But if the defense does their job after Dixon's TD on 3rd and 22 and then 4th and 5? The game never goes to OT and Dixon's pick does not happen.

frankthetank1
09-01-2010, 12:00 PM
the defense definetly blew leads last season which was very un-like the steelers. i blame the defense mostly for not making the playoffs, which without smith and troy is pretty understandable. however short yardage was horrible last season and so was the red-zone offense so you can give the O some partial blame last season as well.

drprwnap
09-01-2010, 12:26 PM
Here is the full exchange between me and Paul Zeise:


Zeise.....

How many of the blown leads were a direct result of a poorly thrown ball by Ben Roethlisberger which was picked off? I can think of at least one bad interception in every one of their blown lead games.

Guess what - if you are running the ball and punting, you aren't giving short fields.

Bill Cowher's philosophy was boring and wasn't always fun too watch, but it was effective in holding leads.

Crash


How many of the blown leads were a direct result of a poorly thrown ball by Ben Roethlisberger which was picked off?

You tell me Paul. I know the answer.

I just gave you three examples during the 5 game losing streak in which the Steelers offense SCORED 4TH QUARTER TOUCHDOWNS, only to see the defense give the lead right back when they went back on the field.

Ben Roethlisberger has also not thrown one pick in the 4th quarter all year. That's the issue here Paul, the 4th quarter defense.

Now you talk about short fields hurting the defense because of their offense.

The Steelers take the lead in KC, up 7 points.

Next KC drive:

Eight plays 91 yards, touchdown.

The Steelers take the lead against the Raiders.

Next Raider drive:

Three plays, 81 yards, touchdown.

The Steelers take the lead again.

Next Raider drive:

10 plays 88 yards, touchdown.

The Steelers score a TD to take the lead in Baltimore (No Ben by the way).

Next Ravens drive:

10 plays 84 yards, game tying FG.

Jeff Reed misses a 4th quarter FG up 7 in Chicago.

Next Bears drive?

9 plays, 72 yards, touchdown.

The Steelers up 20-9 in the 4th punt the ball to the Bengals in Cincy (This after trying to run the ball twice doing what you wanted).

Next Bengals drive:

6 plays 85 yards, touchdown to cut the lead to five points.

The Steelers run twice from their own 38 yard line, punt up 20-15.

Next Bengals drive:

16 plays 71 yards, touchdown.

Where are these short field drives that hurts the defense Paul? They don't exist. If anything the longer drives are killing the offenses chances to come back because there is no time left on the clock for the most part. Which is exactly why Mike Tomlin kicked that on-sides kick against the Packers. He figured if they were going to score on a short field, they would at least get the ball back.

They did, and they won.

Why are you wasting time with this idiot Zeise? He's just a hair below Mark Madden as the most stupid sportswriters in Pittsburgh HISTORY. I can't sand either one of them. :evil:

Northern_Blitz
09-01-2010, 12:46 PM
Here are a couple of other threads about TOP and our defence from this off season.

http://www.planetsteelers.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12033&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=15

http://www.planetsteelers.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10213

Long story short. Our TOP looked good in the 4th because we gave up points quickly. They'd score quick, then we'd get the ball back again.

Not the way to drive up your TOP.

NorthCoast
09-01-2010, 12:49 PM
We covered this already in great detail:

http://www.planetsteelers.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10434&hilit=time+of+possession+time+NorthCoast

You averaged all games. Take a look at the wins vs losses. In games we lost we held the ball less than half (actually only about 1/3) of the quarter. Offense to blame as much as defense....

papillon
09-01-2010, 12:53 PM
The Steelers three units (offense, defense and special teams) never put together a complete game. When the offense was moving the ball and getting leads the defense would surrender drives to the opponents, if the defense stuffed the opponents offense, the offense couldn't muster a drive to put the nail in the coffin and we don't even need to discuss how the (un)special teams played last year.

Looking at just the 4th quarter is short-sighted in my opinion. There were times that the offense could have put games away early and didn't. The defense looks bad because their problems always occurred in the 4th quarter. They may have kept a team from scoring early only to give up leads in the second half.

The Steelers were a team last year that couldn't put a complete game together. One of the units always seemed to fail at some point during a game. When you get that, you get an 8-8 or 9-7 team that looks inconsistent and that describes the Steelers of 2009.

Pappy

Oviedo
09-01-2010, 12:53 PM
Be careful with this thread. Someone is on the verge of criticizing Coach LeBeau which is verboten.

Let's just wait and see if adjustments are made and the defense improves or if just having Troy and Aaron makes the sun shine and rainbows appear.

papillon
09-01-2010, 01:04 PM
Be careful with this thread. Someone is on the verge of criticizing Coach LeBeau which is verboten.

Let's just wait and see if adjustments are made and the defense improves or if just having Troy and Aaron makes the sun shine and rainbows appear.

And, while I will wholeheartedly admit the defense was not up to snuff, the opposite side of the coin is the offense needs to be adjusted as well and pick up some short yardage first downs and score TDs in the red zone.

As I mentioned laying blame on any one unit is short-sighted. The offense couldn't put games away and the defense gave some games away, neither is more heinous than the other.

Pappy

RuthlessBurgher
09-01-2010, 01:17 PM
Be careful with this thread. Someone is on the verge of criticizing Coach LeBeau which is verboten.

Let's just wait and see if adjustments are made and the defense improves or if just having Troy and Aaron makes the sun shine and rainbows appear.

There was a rainbow in the skies over Denver on Sunday evening. What caused this to occur and, more importantly, what does it MEEEEEANNNN???!!!???!!!

a.) It's merely light refracting through droplets of water
b.) Troy and Aaron made the sun shine and rainbows appear
c.) Tim "The Second Coming" Tebow was in the stadium
d.) Brady Quinn and a man named "Gay" shared the same field

grotonsteel
09-01-2010, 01:21 PM
Crash, didnt D Dixon throw a pic at the end of the game against B-More to end our chances of winning?

In OT he did.

But if the defense does their job after Dixon's TD on 3rd and 22 and then 4th and 5? The game never goes to OT and Dixon's pick does not happen.


:Agree

grotonsteel
09-01-2010, 01:33 PM
Be careful with this thread. Someone is on the verge of criticizing Coach LeBeau which is verboten.

Let's just wait and see if adjustments are made and the defense improves or if just having Troy and Aaron makes the sun shine and rainbows appear.

And, while I will wholeheartedly admit the defense was not up to snuff, the opposite side of the coin is the offense needs to be adjusted as well and pick up some short yardage first downs and score TDs in the red zone.

As I mentioned laying blame on any one unit is short-sighted. The offense couldn't put games away and the defense gave some games away, neither is more heinous than the other.

Pappy

Worst thing with Steelers D last season was there were many almost blown games. Detoit Lions, Packers and Chargers games come to my mind. Even 3 TD lead was not safe in those games.

Steelers were one of the worst team to give plays more than 20 yards . I think they gave around 80 plays which were more than 20 yards.

I believe offense should have put more points but their Red Zone Offense and short yardage running was horrible. If they fix those issue then watch out.

I think Steelers Offense is rising and Steelers D is on a steady decline. In few years we might see a different Steelers team who depends on O to win the games rather than Defense.

grotonsteel
09-01-2010, 01:46 PM
Again even if TOP was 5 min in 4th Q i would still blame the defense.

If you think you are a top notch defense in this league you don't give 80 yard drives or last second TD to backup QBs in NFL.

Its one thing to get shredded by Peyton,Tom, A Rodgers or Drew Brees of the league but by Palmer,Gradkowski, Cassell, Cutler,etc..etc..that has to hurt the Steelers D pride.

Again lets hope its all because of injuries to Aaron Smith and Troy P but Steelers D will have to play way better if Steelers need to win atleast 2 games during Big Ben suspension.

I hate that stupid 10 yard cushion to WR. It did not work last season.

That cushion drives me crazy also but it worked pretty damn well in 2008. I don't think it was the system last year that went bad ... it was how the players played that system that stunk.

The D had very few big plays last year where the year before we seemed to have lots in almost every game. I think this defensive philosophy is based on the offense needing many plays to drive down the field and score. It bets that the offense can't do that without making a mistake. The reason it is successful is executing a 12 play drive without making a mistake isn't easy when max pressure is applied.

However, if you don't apply the pressure consistently you can get picked apart by any NFL caliber QB ... not just the good ones. To me the difference between 2008 when our defense was one of the greatest of all times and last year when it wasn't up to par was the pressure. Not the sack total, but the quick pressure on the QB. We get that back and we again have a shot at the title. If we don't then the offense is going to have to step it up big time for us to even make the playoffs.


Why were they not getting QB pressure last season??? Agreed Aaron Smith was not in the lineup but i think Opposing team figured out how to defeat Steelers D last season.

How are we going to get QB pressure this season? I mean we have almost same personnel. I have a feeling that Aaron Smith will show his age this season. Hopefully i am wrong.

I think the key to success is Ziggy Hood and Timmons. I think Timmons could very well be the MVP of defense. Ziggy Hood replacing Aaron Smith as a starter.

Safety position looks promising. troy,Clark and Allen look like a solid group if they stay healthy.

Crash
09-01-2010, 01:51 PM
The offense can't play for the defense after the offense scores a touchdown.

4 drives after Steelers TD's, the defense gave it right back.

1 stop out of four, a mere 25% success rate, and the Steelers make the playoffs.

Northern_Blitz
09-01-2010, 02:02 PM
I hate that stupid 10 yard cushion to WR. It did not work last season.

That cushion drives me crazy also but it worked pretty damn well in 2008. I don't think it was the system last year that went bad ... it was how the players played that system that stunk.
quote]

I contend that the cushion is good (but sometime frustrating as a fan). The purpose of the cushion is to prevent big plays. We play a cushion and employ DBs that can tackle. Make them complete passes before the 1st down and make the hit. Teams will pick up first downs, but it's hard to sustain long scoring drives when we make them get to 3rd down every time. Eventually, they'll get an incompletion or the D makes a splash play.

IMO the D had 3 problems last year

1. We didn't have anyone in the secondary who could catch the damn ball! No splash plays fromt he secondary...no fear of airing it out from the opposing O.

2. We also had DBs that couldn't tackle (i.e. W.Gay). This allowed teams to convert more often than they "usually" do against us.

3. The biggest problem (IMO), was that we were giving up big plays in the passing game. This let teams get big chunks of yardage and quick scores against us, especially when they gave up on the run (which always seems to be a good plan against us). This was made worse by problem 1 because there's no fear for QBs to throw it when the worst that can happen is an incompletion.

These problems negated the advantages of the "cushion" and the D stank it up last year. Hopefully, having Troy back in the secondary will help fix at least 1 & 3.

Snatch98
09-01-2010, 02:39 PM
...And it's not what you may think.

~ 8:09*

Which means we controlled the ball for more than half the period.

A lot of fans claim our time of possession in the fourth quarter is why we lost so many games. We passed too much and didn't run the ball enough to control the clock. But with this in mind, can we still honestly say that our time of possession was what killed us? We were third in the league in ToP overall.

My opinion: no. The passing attack wasn't to blame; it was our defense playing poorly. Who knows, the ToP may have been even better were it not for our poor O-line and inefficient offense. I fear we may be focusing too much on running the ball, and not on what caused such poor play on defense. Hopefully, whatever it was got fixed.



*I did some calculating of my own, so this isn't exact, but it's a very good estimate. Does anyone know if there's a place I can find a stat like this? I tried pro-football reference and NFL.com, but no luck.

I personally have never once blamed anything but the defense for our string of heinous losses last season. Big Ben was the keeping us in those games and then turning to the defense to close the door. The defense never did and he'd come back out and give it another go getting us close or over the hump each time. I definitely think the defense is vastly improved this year contrary to what we've seen in the vanilla preseason. We just need to make it out of this suspension alive and we'll be well on our way.

feltdizz
09-01-2010, 03:00 PM
Crash, didnt D Dixon throw a pic at the end of the game against B-More to end our chances of winning?

In OT he did.

But if the defense does their job after Dixon's TD on 3rd and 22 and then 4th and 5? The game never goes to OT and Dixon's pick does not happen.


:Agree

wait for it.....




:Agree

They blamed short yardage, BA, pass happy offense, points, etc. But at the end of the day we say the D give up way too many big plays and stop NO ONE on 4th downs. 3rd and 22 and you give up 17? :wft

Captain Lemming
09-01-2010, 06:45 PM
A lot of fans claim our time of possession in the fourth quarter is why we lost so many games.

That's what they claim.

But that's not what happened.

Here is why they missed the playoffs, all in the 4th quarter:

The Steelers take the lead in KC, up 7 points.

Next KC drive:

Eight plays 91 yards, touchdown.

The Steelers take the lead against the Raiders.

Next Raider drive:

Three plays, 81 yards, touchdown.

The Steelers take the lead again.

Next Raider drive:

10 plays 88 yards, touchdown.

The Steelers score a TD to take the lead in Baltimore (No Ben by the way so you can't blame evil pass happy Ben for not playing "Stiller Football").

Next Ravens drive:

10 plays 84 yards, game tying FG after allowing 17 yards on 3rd and 22 and then a big gain on 4th and 5.

But because people are too worried about our image and protecting our defense's reputation, these 4th quarter facts, are ignored.

I even had one media scribe ask me: "How many 4th quarter interceptions did Ben throw to help blow those leads?"

The interceptions that Ben threw in the 4th quarter are listed below:
-

I have to say this is the single most persuasive argument I have ever seen you give Crash. I've done a 180 as a result.

I give you grief when I disagree, so its only right to give you props when you have convinced me to change a POV. Nice.