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View Full Version : Thoughts??? Preseason Game 2



jj28west
08-21-2010, 10:19 PM
I know its preseason so take it for what it is... Here is a couple of quick observations

--> Can someone please please please overthrow Wallace? I dont think its possible.

--> I am shocked that the practice squad QB (yes I know its preseason) took his team down the field for a TD on the 1st string. I am even more in shock that Bradshaw got the corner even though he is fast. Maybe the D was showing & playing vanilla the whole time?

--> Congradulations Red. You are a Steeler.

--> Good problems to have and tough decisions to make in most positions. Brown, and all three LB's are keepers (although Worilds did get swallowed up rather easily and contained by a scrub TE) with the rookie safety FA Smith to the practice squad IMO.

--> Special Teams looks good one time and then like last year next time around.

--> Some saw moxy in Summers

--> Loved Coach T's shirt with the yellow dashes on the back.

--> Dixon against that third team could have rushed for 100 yards.

--> Hotel will have 16 holding calls this year.

--> Once again the Steeler Nation is represented well in New Jersey with the here we go Steeler chants.

JTP53609
08-21-2010, 10:27 PM
sepulvadas tackle was a thing of beauty, he was getting held like he was james harrison but he still makes a superb tackle.
dixon looks really good, I love how he ran to the outside on that one broken play

SanAntonioSteelerFan
08-21-2010, 10:30 PM
Lefty surprisingly nimble on that scramble. He didn't make it any easier to scream for Dixon.

Djfan
08-21-2010, 10:32 PM
Lewis, Redman, Pouncy, are the real deal. Look forward to Urbik as he looked pretty good.

Adams might be bagging groceries soon.

Thanks Logan. It was fun.

Refs still call phantom plays.

fordfixer
08-21-2010, 10:36 PM
No one fumbled the ball

JPbucco
08-21-2010, 10:40 PM
Once again I thought Hills looked pretty good....Max did NOT.

Wil Allen made some nice plays, base and ST...good riddance Lil' Evil.

Dixon can be a weapon for us, especially in short yardage.

I love our young corners.

Stevie Sly is a player.

NJ-STEELER
08-21-2010, 11:00 PM
... K lewis has some freakishly long arms, good quality to have for a Db.

.. how fast did pouncey time at the combine? when he's down the field on a screen i at first think its not our center getting down that fast...is it?
i cant believe the guy runs that well and is 300 LBs... i hope its not cause i'm used to seeing heavy footed,2 left feeted, lineman the rest of the OL seems to have


... summers is a terrible blocker. how can someone playing football for so long whiff on so many blocks...ITS BLOCKING!!!!! he's getting cut IMO

... mchugh over johnson for 3rd tight end. more violent of a blocker/better blocker

..another game where cromartie smith is more active then mundy. i'm hoping he makes the team over munds.

... logan is a better returner then brown. too many numbers for Brown to make the team....he goes to the practice squad this year


...the WTF comment of the night from carl banks of the giants TV crew. In discussing the great grand daughter actress of art rooney and deceased giants owner tim rooney (rooney mara) and her getting the role for a movie called "the woman with the dragon tattoo" he first asks bob papa if he's read the book and follows it up saying he's seen the porn version of that movie. :o huh????

maybe he picked up too many tips from LT

feltdizz
08-21-2010, 11:24 PM
WTF was Ike thinking? I wish he showed this kind of aggression for the football when it's in the air. Punching a helmet is real smart too... something about Ike has always irked me, besides the non pass catching skills it just seems like he is easily baited into pushing and shoving matches on 3rd downs.

Lefty had a pretty good game and while he is slow as dirt he threw the he'll out of the ball and hit Wallace in stride. I'll give Ben a pass on his underthrown ball but dammit, how many times will it take before he realizes how fast Wallace is?

McFadden looked like Gay out there. Lewis needs to get a shot because that pathetic effort by Bmac was embarassing. What happened to attacking the ball at the highest point? Worlids looks like a guy afraid to beat a block.

Redman is a beast and will be our short yardage back. The OL still looks bad on running plays. However the second string OL was carving up the Giants. Who is Vincent? He had some good runs.

What's up with the fades to our short WR's?

Brown had somedecent returns but Logan came in and reminded me what a real KR looks like. The guy is smooth and makes it look easy. Gotta keep him IMO.

Once again our D looked like wet paper after the O put somepoints on the board. I really want to see our D have a 3 and out after we score.

Dixon is a monster and looked good throwing the ball. He just brings a different tempo and the O has more pep when he is in there.

fezziwig
08-21-2010, 11:25 PM
Considering everything, I thought they played well for the most part. Some rust, some mistakes but hey, it's our second pre-season game and we won.

Crash
08-21-2010, 11:26 PM
Ben threw that ball on the run and rushed it, bad throw. Nothing to do with speed of Wallace. Wallace didn't lead the league in YPC because Ben can't throw deep.

Captain Lemming
08-21-2010, 11:29 PM
... logan is a better returner then brown. too many numbers for Brown to make the team....he goes to the practice squad this year

Oh Brown WILL make the squad. The Lions would grab him in a second if he doesnt. We would be fools to expose him to the market


...the WTF comment of the night from carl banks of the giants TV crew. In discussing the great grand daughter actress of art rooney and deceased giants owner tim rooney (rooney mara) and her getting the role for a movie called "the woman with the dragon tattoo" he first asks bob papa if he's read the book and follows it up saying he's seen the porn version of that movie. :o huh????

maybe he picked up too many tips from LT[/quote]

I honestly thought I misunderstood him. That was crazy.

NJ-STEELER
08-21-2010, 11:32 PM
... logan is a better returner then brown. too many numbers for Brown to make the team....he goes to the practice squad this year

Oh Brown WILL make the squad. The Lions would grab him in a second if he doesnt. We would be fools to expose him to the market


...the WTF comment of the night from carl banks of the giants TV crew. In discussing the great grand daughter actress of art rooney and deceased giants owner tim rooney (rooney mara) and her getting the role for a movie called "the woman with the dragon tattoo" he first asks bob papa if he's read the book and follows it up saying he's seen the porn version of that movie. :o huh????

maybe he picked up too many tips from LT[/quote:3f4pfkl8]

I honestly thought I misunderstood him. That was crazy.


i had to rewind it 2 or 3 times to make sure he said that. i was trying to give him the benefit of the doubt thinking i mis heard him or maybe it was a word similiar to porn.


what the eff was he thinking??

Crash
08-21-2010, 11:36 PM
He wasn't thinking when he called Jack Tatum an ex Steeler either.

feltdizz
08-21-2010, 11:38 PM
Ben threw that ball on the run and rushed it, bad throw. Nothing to do with speed of Wallace. Wallace didn't lead the league in YPC because Ben can't throw deep.

It has everything to do with speed. Wallace led the league because of his speed. I'm not going to argue with you about it though... a sure TD turned into an INT. Wallace goes from wide open to defender too much and as we witnessed tonight and at times last year, if yu put it out there Wallace will run under it.

Crash
08-21-2010, 11:42 PM
Wallace led the league in YPC last season. I don't think Leftwich played with us, right?

This whole notion that Ben doesn't have a deep ball or can't throw deep is laughable.

He struggled with his deep ball when he was wearing gloves in 2004 and 2005.

For his CAREER? Ben's deep ball ranks with the league's best.

Look it up.

Just like McNabb tonight, NFLN breaks in, "look at this deep ball by McNabb".

The pass was grossly underthrown. Not a peep.

Captain Lemming
08-21-2010, 11:43 PM
He wasn't thinking when he called Jack Tatum an ex Steeler either.

That was HERESY.

MaxAMillion
08-21-2010, 11:45 PM
I thought he said porn as well, but Bob Poppa kept right on talking liked nothing happened so maybe he said something else. It sure sounded like he said Porn.

Keenan Lewis will eventually start for the Steelers ( I love his potential).
You have to give the Steeler front office credit for their last two drafts. There are multiple players in each draft who will make a major impact. There are some teams who are lucky to get one quality player out of a draft.

NJ-STEELER
08-21-2010, 11:48 PM
He wasn't thinking when he called Jack Tatum an ex Steeler either.

true

forgot about that one, although he did come abck and say lambert

SanAntonioSteelerFan
08-21-2010, 11:48 PM
Flozell Adams isn''t such a great pass blocker. If he's going to be on the line, I don't want him on Ben's blind side.

He's pretty good on the run block.

birtikidis
08-22-2010, 12:00 AM
I like Logan and wish he were in a better situation, I just don't see him making this team. He doesn't offer enough as a receiver. Think about it. you have a spot for a long snapper, a returner, kicker and punter... those would be guys that are only on the field for a fraction of a game. Brown is a young guy first off (Logan is 29) and has potential to develop.

Can't help but gloat a little with how well Pouncey has been playing. the guy is a stud. not only is he great at the POA but he also gets to the 2nd level on EVERY play. dude is a stud.

IF you can give Lefty time, I could just see bomb after bomb going to Wallace.

Heath Miller will be mentioned among the great TE's in the game. He will have 70+ catches no problem.

I loved seeing Sep kick. Absolutely loved it. I'm so tired of seeing Reeds panseyass kicks and his extreme lack of effort..

SanAntonioSteelerFan
08-22-2010, 12:15 AM
^^ I was just going to post... I didn't think Sep did any better on his kickoffs than the typical Skippy kick. Now of course, he did save us 7 points with his tackle - Skippy would have been running to the other sideline, instead of making a FOOTBALL tackle like Sep did.

Bottom line, IMO, Sep didn't lay a strong claim to the kicker's job. But it's good to know we have a backup!

birtikidis
08-22-2010, 12:18 AM
Seps kicks had slightly longer hangtime. they may not have been deeper, but it seemed like our boys got down there sooner. and they seemed a bit higher.

feltdizz
08-22-2010, 12:23 AM
I don't think it's fair to say a KR is a fraction of the game. How many times will Brown see the field as a WR this year? A fraction of a fraction? LOL.

I still think Logan has the ability to impact games amd change field position and those are huge. If long snapper is just a fraction why not have Harrison or Timmons do it? ST's is 1/3 of a football game and I think Logan should stick around for one more year.

birtikidis
08-22-2010, 12:32 AM
I don't think it's fair to say a KR is a fraction of the game. How many times will Brown see the field as a WR this year? A fraction of a fraction? LOL.

I still think Logan has the ability to impact games amd change field position and those are huge. If long snapper is just a fraction why not have Harrison or Timmons do it? ST's is 1/3 of a football game and I think Logan should stick around for one more year.

Felt what i'm saying is that there comes a point where your special teams guys have to be able to step on the field and produce at some other position. If Hines or Wallace were to go down who would you rather enter the rotation? Some positions like long snapper are too important to have another position player do.

birtikidis
08-22-2010, 12:37 AM
and with the fact that Wallace is our only young stud of a receiver, we have to develop these young guys. Logan is 29, his ceiling is not high and the amount of time that he'll be around is a detriment.

focosteeler
08-22-2010, 12:46 AM
sylvestor was a steal where we got him...he is a baller

maybe its just me...every time i see pouncey i cant get over how skinny he looks i know he is over 300, its just strange looking to me

Captain Lemming
08-22-2010, 12:47 AM
Wallace led the league in YPC last season. I don't think Leftwich played with us, right?

This whole notion that Ben doesn't have a deep ball or can't throw deep is laughable.

He struggled with his deep ball when he was wearing gloves in 2004 and 2005.

For his CAREER? Ben's deep ball ranks with the league's best.

Look it up.
.

Nobody in this thread said Ben cant throw it deep. But Ben, heck EVERY QB INCLUDING LEFTWICH last week routinely underthrows Wallace when he runs the deep route.
Even when the pass is complete, Wallace who gets WAY behind the defender must often slow down allowing the defender to close before making the catch.

I also thought "finally" a perfect bomb to Wallace.

That was the best in stride deep ball to Wallace yet. That is a simple fact.

That is no threat to Ben who is a MUCH better QB. Bens pinpoint sideline throw to Wallace against Green Bay....amazingly reminiscent of the SB.

But I do hope that Ben can learn to hit Wallace in stride with regularity because I have NEVER seen a Steeler who could simply blow by corners with pure speed like Wallace can. Frankly I believe Ben is simply used to slow receivers. Perhaps THAT in why you hate Hines. :D

Bens high YPA is largely because he throws fewer SHORT passes. Ben also extends plays which results in receivers getting open deeper than the original route.

Ben is extremely accurate when the receiver is cutting across the field, even relatively deep. That is why he likes guys basically zig zagging after having run the designed route. Nobody is as good at hitting receivers in that situation.

But even before Wallace, hitting receivers in stride deep who are running straight up-field is not his strength.

SanAntonioSteelerFan
08-22-2010, 12:51 AM
Seps kicks had slightly longer hangtime. they may not have been deeper, but it seemed like our boys got down there sooner. and they seemed a bit higher.

I think you're right ...

I wonder if it's possible that kicking "too much" could hurt Sep's reconstructed knee? Probably not, or they wouldn't be giving him these looks at kicking off.

I really liked his tacking!

Captain Lemming
08-22-2010, 12:56 AM
I don't think it's fair to say a KR is a fraction of the game. How many times will Brown see the field as a WR this year? A fraction of a fraction? LOL.

I still think Logan has the ability to impact games amd change field position and those are huge. If long snapper is just a fraction why not have Harrison or Timmons do it? ST's is 1/3 of a football game and I think Logan should stick around for one more year.

I dont think we need to choose. I'd keep both rooks and Logan and dump ARE myself. I see both younguns as having better upside than ARE at his peak. Unless of course we intend to have him throwing passes like he used to.

birtikidis
08-22-2010, 01:02 AM
I don't think it's fair to say a KR is a fraction of the game. How many times will Brown see the field as a WR this year? A fraction of a fraction? LOL.

I still think Logan has the ability to impact games amd change field position and those are huge. If long snapper is just a fraction why not have Harrison or Timmons do it? ST's is 1/3 of a football game and I think Logan should stick around for one more year.

I dont think we need to choose. I'd keep both rooks and Logan and dump ARE myself. I see both younguns as having better upside than ARE at his peak. Unless of course we intend to have him throwing passes like he used to.
The only thing ARE really brings to the table is insurance if Hines Goes down. He's the most familiar with the playbook and would be able to step into a starting role with less chance of making a lot of mental mistakes.

Crash
08-22-2010, 01:05 AM
That was the best in stride deep ball to Wallace yet. That is a simple fact.

No it isn't. Ben's throw to Wallace in Miami was better. The one in Detroit that Wallace dropped was better, and the one in Cincy where Wallace stepped out of bounds was better.

None of those were in a pre-season game either. It's an apples to oranges argument.

Steelerphile
08-22-2010, 06:28 AM
The stuff about how Dixon cannot read defenses and pass effectively is warmed over garbage from the Kordell era. Dixon definitely can see the receivers and pass effectively. Even though Leftwich did complete the bomb, I am still liking Dixon better.
The offense plays more uptempo and his running, when he needs to or wants to, is very effective.

Roethlisberger obviously has the arm to hit Wallace but Big Ben still has a tendency to hold the ball and double pump, and with Wallace he has to decide to pass to him and throw almost immediately.

I still like Logan a lot as a returner, better than Brown. The numbers game may get him. I hope not.

Sepulveda may not kick off much farther than Reed, but the play he made to tackle the return man on his punt shows why he should be the kickoff guy. Reed would not have made 1/100th of that kind of effort to tackle. I reiterate that with Sepulveda as the last line of defense, I guarantee no kickoffs to the house.

Oviedo
08-22-2010, 09:53 AM
My random thoughts on some previous comments:

1. Brown should win the KR return job and not because Logan was not drafted. Brown looked good and was a couple of trips away from big returns. That combined with his WR play makes him a keeper. Just can't see them keeping Logan at the risk of one less rookie WR or another RB.

2. ARE isn't going anywhere. As stated he is insurance if Hines goes down so you don't force a rookie in there at the same time Wallace is trying to get his feet under him as #1/#2 receiver.

3. Heath is going to be huge. Could see 90+ catches. Spaeth made a great catch. Worry less about Spaeth blocking and throw him the damn ball more. The kid has great hands and is a match up nightmare for LBs/Safeties. McHugh is a much better option than Johnson as the #3 TE. McHugh is a better blocker and can actually catch the ball.

4. Lewis and Burnett are the real deal. Butler looks very good and versatile. Why are we keeping Gay on the roster? Gay = Hank Poteat.

5. You can see that Kugler is doing something positive with the OL. IMO did well against one of the top 3 DLs in the NFL. Still room for improvement but seem on the right track.

6. Both Lefty and Dixon looked good. Lefty should start but we should roll Dixon in for certain series to force defenses to game plan for both.

7. For our rookie LBs, "Stevie Sly" has to make this roster somehow. He is very good. Worilds and Gibson didn't stand out good or bad...maybe that is OK.

8. On the OL, Urbik looked very good and Legursky did not. Pouncey should be starting Center. Not sure what to do with RT. Adams was crushing people run blocking but he is going to need help in pas blocking.

9. Don't feel really good about our stable of RBs. Lord help us if Mendy get hurt. Love Mendy in the passing game. I can see him getting 40+ receptions if they target him.

10. Finally, what the heck was Troy doing with his tackling? I know he has always been a "torpedoe tackler" but damn man aim the torpedo at the freaking ship you want to sink. I thought Troy had a horrible game.

BURGH86STEEL
08-22-2010, 10:17 AM
Wallace led the league in YPC last season. I don't think Leftwich played with us, right?

This whole notion that Ben doesn't have a deep ball or can't throw deep is laughable.

He struggled with his deep ball when he was wearing gloves in 2004 and 2005.

For his CAREER? Ben's deep ball ranks with the league's best.

Look it up.

Just like McNabb tonight, NFLN breaks in, "look at this deep ball by McNabb".

The pass was grossly underthrown. Not a peep.

I don't think people believe Ben does not have a deep ball. Appears to me that he under throws open WR's more often then not. Ben's deep ball needs improvement. All you have to do is watch with your own two eyes. That does not mean Ben is a bad player. It only means that he needs more consistency.

Shawn
08-22-2010, 10:28 AM
I focused on Hills for much of his PT. I believe him to be the real deal. He was bullying and pancaking guys. I didn't see anyone get around him. Keep our fingers crossed about him staying healthy. I would honestly considering trying him out at RT.

stlrz d
08-22-2010, 10:58 AM
Wallace led the league in YPC last season. I don't think Leftwich played with us, right?

This whole notion that Ben doesn't have a deep ball or can't throw deep is laughable.

He struggled with his deep ball when he was wearing gloves in 2004 and 2005.

For his CAREER? Ben's deep ball ranks with the league's best.

Look it up.

Just like McNabb tonight, NFLN breaks in, "look at this deep ball by McNabb".

The pass was grossly underthrown. Not a peep.

Ben said after the game that the ball came out of his hand wrong. It happens. He's human. But the haters will never accept that.

All through training camp the reports were that Ben had his timing down with Wallace and was hitting him in stride deep. Then in his first game he tries to make a tough throw on the run and the ball comes out funny...and we're right back to "Ben can't throw the ball deep". :roll:

feltdizz
08-22-2010, 11:07 AM
When people say Mendenhall needs to protect the ball are they hating? :roll:

If Ben is "human" why do you feel the need to make excuses for his mistakes?

stlrz d
08-22-2010, 11:14 AM
When people say Mendenhall needs to protect the ball are they hating? :roll:

Saying Ben should not have attempted that pass is not hating. It was a very difficult throw.

Saying Ben can't throw the ball deep is not true, and therefore, is hating. Or a complete lack of understanding what one is seeing. Take your pick.

stlrz d
08-22-2010, 12:04 PM
Btw, I was just kind of skipping through the game and the announcer (Papa?) didn't say "porn" he said "foreign".

feltdizz
08-22-2010, 12:14 PM
When people say Mendenhall needs to protect the ball are they hating? :roll:

Saying Ben should not have attempted that pass is not hating. It was a very difficult throw.

Saying Ben can't throw the ball deep is not true, and therefore, is hating. Or a complete lack of understanding what one is seeing. Take your pick.

I didn't read where he shouldn't have thrown it but he clearly underthrew him.

You may not agree with the terminology but if Ben is underthrowing Wallace this year when he is wide open it's a problem. What people are seeing is Wallace 5 yards behind his man and the ball not getting there...

I know you feel as though you have the correct answer to all of this but you can't correct it with words. The ball has to come out faster so those TD's aren't INT's.

Crash
08-22-2010, 12:34 PM
What people are seeing is Wallace 5 yards behind his man and the ball not getting there...

But they ignore when the ball DOES get there.

That's the problem.

BURGH86STEEL
08-22-2010, 12:35 PM
I focused on Hills for much of his PT. I believe him to be the real deal. He was bullying and pancaking guys. I didn't see anyone get around him. Keep our fingers crossed about him staying healthy. I would honestly considering trying him out at RT.

Hills will make the team if he truly improved. It also speaks to the notion of why coaches keep players around. Players show potential that coaches can't ignore. Coaches know that players bloom at different paces. Many fans don't recognize or see potential and think players are bust and should be cut.

stlrz d
08-22-2010, 01:28 PM
When people say Mendenhall needs to protect the ball are they hating? :roll:

Saying Ben should not have attempted that pass is not hating. It was a very difficult throw.

Saying Ben can't throw the ball deep is not true, and therefore, is hating. Or a complete lack of understanding what one is seeing. Take your pick.

I didn't read where he shouldn't have thrown it but he clearly underthrew him.

And Ben clearly stated that the ball came out of his hand wrong. Anyone watching could see that ball fluttering around. Ben doesn't throw passes that flutter that badly normally so it's clear he didn't release it properly.




I know you feel as though you have the correct answer to all of this but you can't correct it with words. The ball has to come out faster so those TD's aren't INT's.

And that is a TIMING issue, not an under throwing issue. Under throwing indicates a lack of arm strength. That is not an issue for Ben. His arm is plenty strong.

That was a broken play and Ben was scrambling to buy time. To expect a guy to make a difficult throw like that accurately every time is simply a fantasy.

Crash - That is the truth. When he throws a good deep ball on time it either goes unnoticed or people say stupid things like, "It's about time". :roll:

feltdizz
08-22-2010, 01:37 PM
What people are seeing is Wallace 5 yards behind his man and the ball not getting there...

But they ignore when the ball DOES get there.

That's the problem.

Who ignores it? Are you really that sensitive and that juvenile that you need to remind fans that Ben has thrown the ball to Wallace before?

Do fans really have to acknowledge the good plays from the past year everytime they talk about an INT or a fumble or a missed tackle?

Eddie Spaghetti
08-22-2010, 01:38 PM
Ramon Foster had another very solid performance.

but Urbik fans never seem to notice.

Crash
08-22-2010, 01:42 PM
Who ignores it? Are you really that sensitive and that juvenile that you need to remind fans that Ben has thrown the ball to Wallace before?

Not just Wallace. Ben and his supposedly "bad deep ball" has been a criticism he's had in his entire Steelers career.

It's wrong. It's ridiculous. And frankly I'm tired of hearing it.

feltdizz
08-22-2010, 01:47 PM
[quote=feltdizz]When people say Mendenhall needs to protect the ball are they hating? :roll:

Saying Ben should not have attempted that pass is not hating. It was a very difficult throw.

Saying Ben can't throw the ball deep is not true, and therefore, is hating. Or a complete lack of understanding what one is seeing. Take your pick.

I didn't read where he shouldn't have thrown it but he clearly underthrew him.

And Ben clearly stated that the ball came out of his hand wrong. Anyone watching could see that ball fluttering around. Ben doesn't throw passes that flutter that badly normally so it's clear he didn't release it properly.




I know you feel as though you have the correct answer to all of this but you can't correct it with words. The ball has to come out faster so those TD's aren't INT's.

And that is a TIMING issue, not an under throwing issue. Under throwing indicates a lack of arm strength. That is not an issue for Ben. His arm is plenty strong.

That was a broken play and Ben was scrambling to buy time. To expect a guy to make a difficult throw like that accurately every time is simply a fantasy.

Crash - That is the truth. When he throws a good deep ball on time it either goes unnoticed or people say stupid things like, "It's about time". :roll:[/quote:1d2fgv69]

if Ben throws a deep ball and the WR has to come back for it or turn into the defender it's UNDERTHROWN.

You can call it timing but it wasn't a timing pattern. Ben broke the pocket and threw deep and it was underthrown. While it was a difficult pass it is one he attempts more than a few times and we have all witnessed the majority of them being UNDERTHROWN.

Lefty had no problem getting it there... he dnt throw it earlier either he just threw it further than Wallace. If Ben can only hit Wallace if he grows it earlier than maybe he shouldn't attempt that pass when Wallace is that far down field and he is on the run. I knew as soon as that pass was UNDERTHROWN you would get all hot and bothered on here.

You can keep holding onto your timing definition but it still goes in the books as an INT and it's unfortunate because that was a sure TD.

feltdizz
08-22-2010, 01:52 PM
Who ignores it? Are you really that sensitive and that juvenile that you need to remind fans that Ben has thrown the ball to Wallace before?

Not just Wallace. Ben and his supposedly "bad deep ball" has been a criticism he's had in his entire Steelers career.

It's wrong. It's ridiculous. And frankly I'm tired of hearing it.

fans are tired of seeing guys wide open and underthrown too. Doesn't mean they hate Ben but it's obvious his deep ball is late, weak, underthrown, untimed... etc. Ben has a big arm but on deep passes he has a tendency to wind up and come up short. How many times has Ben overthrown a bomb? Not too many...

If you are sick of hearing about it you may not want to come on here after he underthrows a wide open WR because someone will talk about it.

grotonsteel
08-22-2010, 02:05 PM
Who ignores it? Are you really that sensitive and that juvenile that you need to remind fans that Ben has thrown the ball to Wallace before?

Not just Wallace. Ben and his supposedly "bad deep ball" has been a criticism he's had in his entire Steelers career.

It's wrong. It's ridiculous. And frankly I'm tired of hearing it.

fans are tired of seeing guys wide open and underthrown too. Doesn't mean they hate Ben but it's obvious his deep ball is late, weak, underthrown, untimed... etc. Ben has a big arm but on deep passes he has a tendency to wind up and come up short. How many times has Ben overthrown a bomb? Not too many...

If you are sick of hearing about it you may not want to come on here after he underthrows a wide open WR because someone will talk about it.

There are two ways to look at it...at what point did Wallace break free of the CB. If its 20 yards down the field Big Ben hits him in his stride. If he is getting free after 5 min and 60 yards...no way Big Ben can't hit him in stride..

I don't have issues throwing an INT on deep passes. Its like a Punt. Also the DB made a great play unfortunately our CBs can never do that.

Another thing to notice..Big Ben threw that pass on a run/backfoot whereas Byron threw it from pocket under no pressure.

blacknblue80s
08-22-2010, 02:07 PM
it still goes in the books as an INT and it's unfortunate because that was a sure TD.


Sure touchdown!?

That would have most likely been a sack if it were Lefty. Lefty also grossly underthrew what truly was a sure TD against the Lions.

IMO, the reason Ben throws short at times is because he is usually in the process of creating a play out of a sure sack. The receivers run out of field while Ben is scrambling and Ben tries to throw it where he gives his receiver the best chance to make a play on the ball. When (and if) given 3+ seconds in the pocket, Ben will hit Wallace in stride.

grotonsteel
08-22-2010, 02:09 PM
it still goes in the books as an INT and it's unfortunate because that was a sure TD.


Sure touchdown!?

That would have most likely been a sack if it were Lefty. Lefty also grossly underthrew what truly was a sure TD against the Lions.

IMO, the reason Ben throws short at times is because he is usually in the process of creating a play out of a sure sack. The receivers run out of field while Ben is scrambling and Ben tries to throw it where he gives his receiver the best chance to make a play on the ball. When (and if) given 3+ seconds in the pocket, Ben will hit Wallace in stride.


:Clap :Agree

NJ-STEELER
08-22-2010, 02:17 PM
its a BS obsevation anyway.

i dont see many top wideouts hit in thier stride either. i more or less see the ball get to a spot not in stride and the WR has to stop and fight to get the ball. moss, fitz, c johnson and guys like them get that ball cause of their height advantage. its a big part of being a good receiver to win those battles

i think wallace does a good job of that as well. last night the corner made a good play to shield him off

Crash
08-22-2010, 02:20 PM
Lefty had no problem getting it there

Lefty was also not throwing on the run like Ben was.

Where was Lefty's no problem last week when he underthrew Wallace for a TD? There have also been a few camp reports that he has underthrown Wallace there as well.

feltdizz
08-22-2010, 02:27 PM
It's not the end of the world but it was definitely a discussion this offseason. Lefty did underthow Wallace but he was hit while throwing it. He definitely made sure not to underthrow him the last game. Then again, maybe Lefty threw it late and didn't underthrow him.

I think a lot of QB's underthrew to Moss because they could... Wallace is not good at going up and fighting for the ball but he is one of the best at outrunning coverage. Throw t out there and let him go get it. While he led the league in YPC last year he was also open on at least 10 other plays where the ball was underthrown.

I don't expect perfection but a weapon like him has to have the ball put o there early. Good things can happen when you throw to him early.

Crash
08-22-2010, 02:37 PM
Lefty did underthow Wallace but he was hit while throwing it

And Ben was hit in Chicago last year throwing to Wallace. Pick.

And Ben was hit in KC while he threw and then Wallace fumbled.

Ben has RARELY had time to just set his feet, and let one go for Wallace. When he has? It's a big play, drop, or a TD.

Just like it was for Holmes. Just like it was for Washington. Just like it was for Plax.

feltdizz
08-22-2010, 02:37 PM
Lefty had no problem getting it there

Lefty was also not throwing on the run like Ben was.

Where was Lefty's no problem last week when he underthrew Wallace for a TD? There have also been a few camp reports that he has underthrown Wallace there as well.

He underthrew him once in camp and said it would never happen again. Not sure if he has or hasn't since that quote. Not sure what Ben throwing on the run has to do with anything... if he made the throw we all cheer. He didn't so we wonder if the problem of underthrowing Wallace has been corrected like some say it was.

He underthrew Wallace. Why make excuses for it?

feltdizz
08-22-2010, 02:44 PM
Lefty did underthow Wallace but he was hit while throwing it

And Ben was hit in Chicago last year throwing to Wallace. Pick.

And Ben was hit in KC while he threw and then Wallace fumbled.

Ben has RARELY had time to just set his feet, and let one go for Wallace. When he has? It's a big play, drop, or a TD.

Just like it was for Holmes. Just like it was for Washington. Just like it was for Plax.

Not true... sometimes he hits his WR's on deep passes and sometimes he underthrows them on deep passes.

Ben is a very good QB but you make it sound like he never underthrows a WR when he has time. Sounds like Ben is perfect and everyone else is to blame.

Crash
08-22-2010, 02:46 PM
Not sure what Ben throwing on the run has to do with anything

Then you shouldn't be in this discussion.

Crash
08-22-2010, 02:48 PM
Not true... sometimes he hits his WR's on deep passes and sometimes he underthrows them on deep passes.

Very good.

But unfortunately, Ben's success with the deep ball is very under-appreciated by fans and media alike.

When Gerry Dulac claims that pass by Leftwich may be the first time Wallace was not underthrown since he's been here? That's a joke statement.

JPbucco
08-22-2010, 02:55 PM
I see "Stevie Sly" is catching on....nice.

feltdizz
08-22-2010, 03:01 PM
Not sure what Ben throwing on the run has to do with anything

Then you shouldn't be in this discussion.

Ben throwing on the run makes the underthrow OK? Hmm....

Crash
08-22-2010, 03:29 PM
Not sure what Ben throwing on the run has to do with anything

Then you shouldn't be in this discussion.

Ben throwing on the run makes the underthrow OK? Hmm....

It's a much tougher throw. Ben's made that same throw plenty of times.

Btw, here's a Leftwich underthrow.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-high ... skins-2008 (http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d80c36406/Nate-Washington-Highlight-WK-09-vs-Redskins-2008)

But yet all I heard after that game by fans and media alike was how great he was. Hmmm..

Crash
08-22-2010, 03:30 PM
Ben does underthrow at times but it's nowhere near as much as people claim.

2006

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-high ... aints-2006 (http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d801be2a7/Cedrick-Wilson-Highlight-WK-10-vs-Saints-2006)

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-high ... rowns-2006 (http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d801d4ff4/Nate-Washington-Highlight-WK-14-vs-Browns-2006)

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-high ... hiefs-2006 (http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d801a856d/Nate-Washington-Highlight-WK-06-vs-Chiefs-2006)

2007

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-high ... inals-2007 (http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d802dc48a/Santonio-Holmes-Highlight-WK-4-vs-Cardinals-2007)

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-high ... rowns-2007 (http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d8023649d/Santonio-Holmes-Highlight-WK-1-vs-Browns-2007)

The deep balls on this video below are all from 2007:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Z5dqelV_8s

2008

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-high ... guars-2008 (http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d80b69058/Nate-Washington-Highlight-WK-05-vs-Jaguars-2008)

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-high ... itans-2008 (http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d80d8baf8/Santonio-Holmes-Highlight-WK-16-vs-Titans-2008)

2009

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-videos/09 ... iders-2009 (http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-videos/09000d5d814c787b/Santonio-Holmes-Highlight-WK-13-vs-Raiders-2009)

Everyone was raving about Leftwich against the Redskins two years ago.

But yet, he underthrows Nate and nothing said.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-high ... skins-2008 (http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d80c36406/Nate-Washington-Highlight-WK-09-vs-Redskins-2008)

grotonsteel
08-22-2010, 04:04 PM
Not sure what Ben throwing on the run has to do with anything

Then you shouldn't be in this discussion.

Ben throwing on the run makes the underthrow OK? Hmm....

Is there any QB in NFL who consistently throws 65 yard bombs on the run....???

NJ-STEELER
08-22-2010, 05:49 PM
Not sure what Ben throwing on the run has to do with anything

Then you shouldn't be in this discussion.

Ben throwing on the run makes the underthrow OK? Hmm....

Is there any QB in NFL who consistently throws 65 yard bombs on the run....???

yes

apparently everyone but Ben

Shawn
08-22-2010, 06:10 PM
I focused on Hills for much of his PT. I believe him to be the real deal. He was bullying and pancaking guys. I didn't see anyone get around him. Keep our fingers crossed about him staying healthy. I would honestly considering trying him out at RT.

Hills will make the team if he truly improved. It also speaks to the notion of why coaches keep players around. Players show potential that coaches can't ignore. Coaches know that players bloom at different paces. Many fans don't recognize or see potential and think players are bust and should be cut.

I think what you say is very true. But, I will also say the average fan doesn't really do a whole lot of OL analysis. To be honest, I don't myself unless I'm focusing on a player ie Pouncey and Hills. It's easy to jump to conclusions due to injury. But, I'm thinking that Hills is showing skills to be a significant part of our O. He could very well win a starting position in a couple seasons.

feltdizz
08-22-2010, 06:23 PM
Not sure what Ben throwing on the run has to do with anything

Then you shouldn't be in this discussion.

Ben throwing on the run makes the underthrow OK? Hmm....

Is there any QB in NFL who consistently throws 65 yard bombs on the run....???

It only traveled 45 yards. If it was 65 yards I would be complimenting his timing with Wallace.

birtikidis
08-22-2010, 06:34 PM
so most of you only took one or two plays away from the entire game?

put your d!cks away, this p!ssing match is over.

grotonsteel
08-22-2010, 06:56 PM
Not sure what Ben throwing on the run has to do with anything

Then you shouldn't be in this discussion.

Ben throwing on the run makes the underthrow OK? Hmm....

Is there any QB in NFL who consistently throws 65 yard bombs on the run....???

It only traveled 45 yards. If it was 65 yards I would be complimenting his timing with Wallace.


:HeadBanger

Never Mind..

Shawn
08-22-2010, 08:18 PM
so most of you only took one or two plays away from the entire game?

put your d!cks away, this p!ssing match is over.

But what fun in there is that? :D

papillon
08-22-2010, 08:57 PM
Maybe, the reason Ben had to throw his bomb on the run and Lefty was unpressured in the pocket is because Lefty makes quicker, better decisions than Ben. :stirpot :stirpot :stirpot

:P

Pappy

fezziwig
08-22-2010, 09:52 PM
I thought that runningback Wright had some fire to him when he got the chance. Vincent didn't look bad either.

Captain Lemming
08-22-2010, 11:35 PM
Lefty had a pretty good game and while he is slow as dirt he threw the he'll out of the ball and hit Wallace in stride. I'll give Ben a pass on his underthrown ball but dammit, how many times will it take before he realizes how fast Wallace is?
The comment that started the debate
Hater? Really?
Why are people being so defensive?

People keep arguing Ben "can" and "has" made deep throws. He has the arm. Nobody here is even arguing that point.

Do you realize Diz is implying right here he BELIEVES Ben CAN make the throw, but just underestimates Wallace's speed. That is the frustration.
Steeler D has been trying to make the point FOR A YEAR that Ben throws the ball late in trying to defend Ben. It is the same thing

Now the point that Ben was moving is legit, but it seem to me that is why "I'll give Ben a pass" line is there.

Captain Lemming
08-22-2010, 11:39 PM
Maybe, the reason Ben had to throw his bomb on the run and Lefty was unpressured in the pocket is because Lefty makes quicker, better decisions than Ben. :stirpot :stirpot :stirpot

:P

Pappy

Stop with the "stirring" butterfly boy. :lol:

feltdizz
08-23-2010, 07:15 AM
Lefty had a pretty good game and while he is slow as dirt he threw the he'll out of the ball and hit Wallace in stride. I'll give Ben a pass on his underthrown ball but dammit, how many times will it take before he realizes how fast Wallace is?
The comment that started the debate
Hater? Really?
Why are people being so defensive?

People keep arguing Ben "can" and "has" made deep throws. He has the arm. Nobody here is even arguing that point.

Do you realize Diz is implying right here he BELIEVES Ben CAN make the throw, but just underestimates Wallace's speed. That is the frustration.
Steeler D has been trying to make the point FOR A YEAR that Ben throws the ball late in trying to defend Ben. It is the same thing

Now the point that Ben was moving is legit, but it seem to me that is why "I'll give Ben a pass" line is there.

shhh... don't tell noooo body. I'm just a hater.

Oviedo
08-23-2010, 07:44 AM
I focused on Hills for much of his PT. I believe him to be the real deal. He was bullying and pancaking guys. I didn't see anyone get around him. Keep our fingers crossed about him staying healthy. I would honestly considering trying him out at RT.

Hills will make the team if he truly improved. It also speaks to the notion of why coaches keep players around. Players show potential that coaches can't ignore. Coaches know that players bloom at different paces. Many fans don't recognize or see potential and think players are bust and should be cut.

I think what you say is very true. But, I will also say the average fan doesn't really do a whole lot of OL analysis. To be honest, I don't myself unless I'm focusing on a player ie Pouncey and Hills. It's easy to jump to conclusions due to injury. But, I'm thinking that Hills is showing skills to be a significant part of our O. He could very well win a starting position in a couple seasons.

I think that Hills and Urbik are going to force some very hard decisions on the OL. Both have stepped it up this pre-season and both are young players who Kugler can work with. I would not be surprised to see Legursky as the surprise off man out on the OL along with Jonathon Scott.

ramblinjim
08-23-2010, 07:54 AM
I've been looking for Legursky to be one of the UDFA gems for us for a couple of years now and he just can't seem to get on the field. I agree, there may be some tough cuts along the Oline with guys that have played well (some for the first time) in game situations.

papillon
08-23-2010, 11:28 AM
Maybe, the reason Ben had to throw his bomb on the run and Lefty was unpressured in the pocket is because Lefty makes quicker, better decisions than Ben. :stirpot :stirpot :stirpot

:P

Pappy

Stop with the "stirring" butterfly boy. :lol:

Hehehehehehe...I'm surprised that no one beat me to that line. You know there had to be someone thinking it.

Oh, yea, and here's to you :moon

Pappy

grotonsteel
08-23-2010, 02:27 PM
Lefty had a pretty good game and while he is slow as dirt he threw the he'll out of the ball and hit Wallace in stride. I'll give Ben a pass on his underthrown ball but dammit, how many times will it take before he realizes how fast Wallace is?
The comment that started the debate
Hater? Really?
Why are people being so defensive?

People keep arguing Ben "can" and "has" made deep throws. He has the arm. Nobody here is even arguing that point.

Do you realize Diz is implying right here he BELIEVES Ben CAN make the throw, but just underestimates Wallace's speed. That is the frustration.
Steeler D has been trying to make the point FOR A YEAR that Ben throws the ball late in trying to defend Ben. It is the same thing

Now the point that Ben was moving is legit, but it seem to me that is why "I'll give Ben a pass" line is there.

Hmm..i don't think Big Ben is underestimating Wallace speed. Question is do you overthrow him or allow Wallace to make a play on the ball.

One thing people forget is at what time Wallace gets open?? How much time Wallace takes to get open?? Does DB give 10 yard cushion to Wallace at LOS or they try to jam him??

IMO the only way you're going to hit Wallace in stride is to drop back and throw the ball without even reading the coverage. It is a hit/miss thing and i think its always better to underthrow than overthrow on 50-60 yards throws. Atleast your WR can make a play and if your throw gets intercepted treat it as punt and move on.

Its not easy to throw 60 yard bombs and its even tougher to throw them when on run when your feet are not planted.There are only 2 QBs i have seen who throw ball across their body successfully. Brett and Big Ben.

Captain Lemming
08-23-2010, 03:21 PM
Lefty had a pretty good game and while he is slow as dirt he threw the he'll out of the ball and hit Wallace in stride. I'll give Ben a pass on his underthrown ball but dammit, how many times will it take before he realizes how fast Wallace is?
The comment that started the debate
Hater? Really?
Why are people being so defensive?

People keep arguing Ben "can" and "has" made deep throws. He has the arm. Nobody here is even arguing that point.

Do you realize Diz is implying right here he BELIEVES Ben CAN make the throw, but just underestimates Wallace's speed. That is the frustration.
Steeler D has been trying to make the point FOR A YEAR that Ben throws the ball late in trying to defend Ben. It is the same thing

Now the point that Ben was moving is legit, but it seem to me that is why "I'll give Ben a pass" line is there.

Hmm..i don't think Big Ben is underestimating Wallace speed. Question is do you overthrow him or allow Wallace to make a play on the ball.

One thing people forget is at what time Wallace gets open?? How much time Wallace takes to get open?? Does DB give 10 yard cushion to Wallace at LOS or they try to jam him??

IMO the only way you're going to hit Wallace in stride is to drop back and throw the ball without even reading the coverage. It is a hit/miss thing and i think its always better to underthrow than overthrow on 50-60 yards throws. Atleast your WR can make a play and if your throw gets intercepted treat it as punt and move on.

Its not easy to throw 60 yard bombs and its even tougher to throw them when on run when your feet are not planted.There are only 2 QBs i have seen who throw ball across their body successfully. Brett and Big Ben.

Nobody throws bombs like that on the run. Nobody.

I have yet to see Ben make THAT with that throw with that timing with his feet planted.

Not saying he cant, saying it has not happened, yet.

feltdizz
08-23-2010, 03:49 PM
The problem with underthrowing Wallace is the DB getting smoked by 5 yards gets rewarded with an easy play on the ball. Wallace goes from WR to defender....

Wallace is not a Moss type WR and he doesn't have the body to muscle a guy for those passes. Has he ever outjumped a player or successfully fought for the ball in the air when it was underthrowned or "mis-timed?"

I'm not saying every pass will be spot on or Ben never hits Wallace. All I'm saying is the subject has been discussed on here time and time again. It would have been nice to see the ball get to Wallace given the "training camp talk" of the timing being better.

Crash
08-23-2010, 05:01 PM
It would have also been nice had Ben been able to stay in the pocket, plant and throw.

NJ-STEELER
08-23-2010, 05:26 PM
Wallace is not a Moss type WR and he doesn't have the body to muscle a guy for those passes. Has he ever outjumped a player or successfully fought for the ball in the air when it was underthrowned or "mis-timed?"

.

yes, he has

the detroit TD for one

you dont have to be 6'4 to be able to do that, you just have to be able to adjust to the ball and out position someone and i think he did it well as a rookie... likely better then any receiver we currently have

ikestops85
08-23-2010, 06:02 PM
My observations from the game:

1) Can anyone cover Wallace? The guy seems to get open at will whether against 3rd string or 1st string.

2) These young receivers have made me feel much better about our receiving corp. I don't think we will miss Santonio. The question now is which ones do we get rid of. I'd really say that ARE has the least "value added" at this point but I don't think they cut him. They have to keep Sanders and Brown in my opinion so ...

3) I think Brown showed me he could handle return duties if necessary. I liked his North/South style. Just a few wiggles but generally up and down the field.

4) Dixon has to get time with the 1st string. He is showing the potential for really good trade bait.

5) The defense was shakey against the run. I was starting to get some deja vu feelings in the 4th quarter.

6) Burnett jumped an out route and if the throw hadn't been so high would have had a pick 6. I don't recall the last time I've seen one of our DBs jump a route, aside from Troy of course.

7) We have depth at linebacker. I think Bailey is going to be the odd man out this year. That guy with a last name as a first name and first name as a last name has been impressive.

8) Redmen has the team made. Not only did he run well again but the special team's tackle cinched the deal IMO.

feltdizz
08-23-2010, 06:28 PM
Wallace is not a Moss type WR and he doesn't have the body to muscle a guy for those passes. Has he ever outjumped a player or successfully fought for the ball in the air when it was underthrowned or "mis-timed?"

.

yes, he has

the detroit TD for one

you dont have to be 6'4 to be able to do that, you just have to be able to adjust to the ball and out position someone and i think he did it well as a rookie... likely better then any receiver we currently have

you mean this catch?
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d8134f6f0/Wallace-47-yd-TD-catch

He didn't out jump anyone or fight for it.. he slowed down and had to fall to catch an underthrown/miss-timed pass. He was 5 yards ahead of the defender and if the defender turned around he would have easily defended or caught that pass. I'm not trying to be a kill joy I just think those who are making excuses need to be honest and admit the deep ball has to be thrown further than Wallace for it to be effective.

I'm not saying Ben can't throw the deep ball but Wallace is a burner and any ball that is thrown further than he is will be a sure TD because the guy has jets. Under thrown passes nullify his speed. The best we can hope for on those is a pass INT flag.

NJ-STEELER
08-23-2010, 06:30 PM
Wallace is not a Moss type WR and he doesn't have the body to muscle a guy for those passes. Has he ever outjumped a player or successfully fought for the ball in the air when it was underthrowned or "mis-timed?"

.



you dont have to be 6'4 to be able to do that, you just have to be able to adjust to the ball

feltdizz
08-23-2010, 06:33 PM
My observations from the game:

1) Can anyone cover Wallace? The guy seems to get open at will whether against 3rd string or 1st string.

2) These young receivers have made me feel much better about our receiving corp. I don't think we will miss Santonio. The question now is which ones do we get rid of. I'd really say that ARE has the least "value added" at this point but I don't think they cut him. They have to keep Sanders and Brown in my opinion so ...

3) I think Brown showed me he could handle return duties if necessary. I liked his North/South style. Just a few wiggles but generally up and down the field.

4) Dixon has to get time with the 1st string. He is showing the potential for really good trade bait.

5) The defense was shakey against the run. I was starting to get some deja vu feelings in the 4th quarter.

6) Burnett jumped an out route and if the throw hadn't been so high would have had a pick 6. I don't recall the last time I've seen one of our DBs jump a route, aside from Troy of course.

7) We have depth at linebacker. I think Bailey is going to be the odd man out this year. That guy with a last name as a first name and first name as a last name has been impressive.

8) Redmen has the team made. Not only did he run well again but the special team's tackle cinched the deal IMO.

Does he really need to be trade bait or can we keep him and have a decent back up for the 1 to 2 games Ben will miss due to the pounding he takes every year?

I would hate to see Dixon go and a year from now we have some no name scrub backing Ben up. I think Dixon is developing to a point where we can use him in packages and mix things up.

Lefty will leave because he wants to start. Any draft pick we get is a gamble anyway so why not hold onto a sure thing given the hits Ben takes over a season.

feltdizz
08-23-2010, 06:39 PM
[quote=feltdizz]
Wallace is not a Moss type WR and he doesn't have the body to muscle a guy for those passes. Has he ever outjumped a player or successfully fought for the ball in the air when it was underthrowned or "mis-timed?"

.



you dont have to be 6'4 to be able to do that, you just have to be able to adjust to the ball [/quote:33fkapv7]

I didn't ask if he ever caught an under thrown pass. I asked if he ever out jumped or muscled a player for an under thrown pass.

NJ-STEELER
08-23-2010, 07:09 PM
he's outmuslced/out positioned guys for balls.

he seems to get off the line OK where defenders are allowed to bump him

why wouldn't he have the strength to outmuscle a (likely) smaller DB to get the ball on an under throw??


http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-high ... perPage:50 (http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights#season:2009/team:3900/perPage:50)

Djfan
08-23-2010, 08:17 PM
Does he really need to be trade bait or can we keep him and have a decent back up for the 1 to 2 games Ben will miss due to the pounding he takes every year?

I would hate to see Dixon go and a year from now we have some no name scrub backing Ben up. I think Dixon is developing to a point where we can use him in packages and mix things up.

Lefty will leave because he wants to start. Any draft pick we get is a gamble anyway so why not hold onto a sure thing given the hits Ben takes over a season.


Well....here goes....

I agree with Felt.

If we do trade him, we had better get three all pro O-line men. I say cut Lefty, keep Batch (or next year's draft/FA signing) and keep Dixon. We have a better-than-Kordell here. Keep him.

grotonsteel
08-23-2010, 08:50 PM
Does he really need to be trade bait or can we keep him and have a decent back up for the 1 to 2 games Ben will miss due to the pounding he takes every year?

I would hate to see Dixon go and a year from now we have some no name scrub backing Ben up. I think Dixon is developing to a point where we can use him in packages and mix things up.

Lefty will leave because he wants to start. Any draft pick we get is a gamble anyway so why not hold onto a sure thing given the hits Ben takes over a season.


Well....here goes....

I agree with Felt.

If we do trade him, we had better get three all pro O-line men. I say cut Lefty, keep Batch (or next year's draft/FA signing) and keep Dixon. We have a better-than-Kordell here. Keep him.

Well the trade scenario came up assuming he is a starting QB NFL. If Dixon thinks he is a starting QB why would he sign with Steelers and be a backup. No way he is going to sign with Steelers. So instead trade Dixon and get draft picks.

stlrz d
08-23-2010, 09:35 PM
Lefty had a pretty good game and while he is slow as dirt he threw the he'll out of the ball and hit Wallace in stride. I'll give Ben a pass on his underthrown ball but dammit, how many times will it take before he realizes how fast Wallace is?
The comment that started the debate
Hater? Really?
Why are people being so defensive?

People keep arguing Ben "can" and "has" made deep throws. He has the arm. Nobody here is even arguing that point.

Do you realize Diz is implying right here he BELIEVES Ben CAN make the throw, but just underestimates Wallace's speed. That is the frustration.
Steeler D has been trying to make the point FOR A YEAR that Ben throws the ball late in trying to defend Ben. It is the same thing

Now the point that Ben was moving is legit, but it seem to me that is why "I'll give Ben a pass" line is there.

Hmm..i don't think Big Ben is underestimating Wallace speed. Question is do you overthrow him or allow Wallace to make a play on the ball.

One thing people forget is at what time Wallace gets open?? How much time Wallace takes to get open?? Does DB give 10 yard cushion to Wallace at LOS or they try to jam him??

IMO the only way you're going to hit Wallace in stride is to drop back and throw the ball without even reading the coverage. It is a hit/miss thing and i think its always better to underthrow than overthrow on 50-60 yards throws. Atleast your WR can make a play and if your throw gets intercepted treat it as punt and move on.

Its not easy to throw 60 yard bombs and its even tougher to throw them when on run when your feet are not planted.There are only 2 QBs i have seen who throw ball across their body successfully. Brett and Big Ben.

Good points.

RuthlessBurgher
08-24-2010, 10:09 AM
Does he really need to be trade bait or can we keep him and have a decent back up for the 1 to 2 games Ben will miss due to the pounding he takes every year?

I would hate to see Dixon go and a year from now we have some no name scrub backing Ben up. I think Dixon is developing to a point where we can use him in packages and mix things up.

Lefty will leave because he wants to start. Any draft pick we get is a gamble anyway so why not hold onto a sure thing given the hits Ben takes over a season.


Well....here goes....

I agree with Felt.

If we do trade him, we had better get three all pro O-line men. I say cut Lefty, keep Batch (or next year's draft/FA signing) and keep Dixon. We have a better-than-Kordell here. Keep him.

Well the trade scenario came up assuming he is a starting QB NFL. If Dixon thinks he is a starting QB why would he sign with Steelers and be a backup. No way he is going to sign with Steelers. So instead trade Dixon and get draft picks.

Dixon was taken as an investment, not as our future QB. Since we already have a franchise QB, the plan was to take him in the 5th round, develop him, get a few years out of him as a backup option for us, and then if he shows promise, trade him for a pick that is substantially better than the one that we used to get him.

Houston was intrigued by Matt Schaub's skill set, and gave up two second round picks plus allowed Atlanta to move up 2 spots in the first round (from #10 to #8) to get him.

Seattle was intrigued by Charlie Whitehurst's skill set, and gave up a third round pick plus allowed San Diego to move up 20 spots in the second round (from #60 to #40) to get him.

Both of those deals were based primarily on how Schaub and Whitehurst looked in the preseason, because neither guy got extended looks with their original teams in the regular season, since Atlanta had the pre-Bad-Newz Michael Vick and the Chargers had Philip Rivers. In this situation with Ben, if we allow Dixon to show what he can do in actual meaningful games and he has success, we could possibly get a windfall of picks that is comparable or possibly even better than these deals.

If we can get a prime draft pick or two for Dixon, I would be positively ecstatic. I could live with Leftwich as Ben's primary backup (like how Batch has been for years), and then we draft a new young QB in the 5th round or so to develop again. Lather, rinse, repeat.

ikestops85
08-24-2010, 10:43 AM
Does he really need to be trade bait or can we keep him and have a decent back up for the 1 to 2 games Ben will miss due to the pounding he takes every year?

I would hate to see Dixon go and a year from now we have some no name scrub backing Ben up. I think Dixon is developing to a point where we can use him in packages and mix things up.

Lefty will leave because he wants to start. Any draft pick we get is a gamble anyway so why not hold onto a sure thing given the hits Ben takes over a season.


Well....here goes....

I agree with Felt.

If we do trade him, we had better get three all pro O-line men. I say cut Lefty, keep Batch (or next year's draft/FA signing) and keep Dixon. We have a better-than-Kordell here. Keep him.

Well the trade scenario came up assuming he is a starting QB NFL. If Dixon thinks he is a starting QB why would he sign with Steelers and be a backup. No way he is going to sign with Steelers. So instead trade Dixon and get draft picks.

Dixon was taken as an investment, not as our future QB. Since we already have a franchise QB, the plan was to take him in the 5th round, develop him, get a few years out of him as a backup option for us, and then if he shows promise, trade him for a pick that is substantially better than the one that we used to get him.

Houston was intrigued by Matt Schaub's skill set, and gave up two second round picks plus allowed Atlanta to move up 2 spots in the first round (from #10 to #8) to get him.

Seattle was intrigued by Charlie Whitehurst's skill set, and gave up a third round pick plus allowed San Diego to move up 20 spots in the second round (from #60 to #40) to get him.

Both of those deals were based primarily on how Schaub and Whitehurst looked in the preseason, because neither guy got extended looks with their original teams in the regular season, since Atlanta had the pre-Bad-Newz Michael Vick and the Chargers had Philip Rivers. In this situation with Ben, if we allow Dixon to show what he can do in actual meaningful games and he has success, we could possibly get a windfall of picks that is comparable or possibly even better than these deals.

If we can get a prime draft pick or two for Dixon, I would be positively ecstatic. I could live with Leftwich as Ben's primary backup (like how Batch has been for years), and then we draft a new young QB in the 5th round or so to develop again. Lather, rinse, repeat.

That was my thinking also Ruthless. I wold love to be able to keep Dixon as a backup but he is the one who will be wanting to start. I think Leftwich is over that phase. Leftwich will be decent in the Batch role for the next 5 years.

Dixon has a huge upside so lets try and get some value out of him before he just walks away in free agency.

feltdizz
08-24-2010, 11:38 AM
I don't think Lefty signed with us until after the Devil went down to GA.

I doubt he would have signed with us if Ben was playing 16 games. This is just another chance for Lefty to show something and try to get a starting gig next year.

Lefty has too much pride to sign as a back up before camp starts. He will try to start somewhere next year IMO. I think this is why regardless of Dixon's play Lefty will get the nod. It's his shot at showing FO's he can still get it done if put in the right offense.

NJ-STEELER
08-24-2010, 05:27 PM
no one was interested in signing him.

pride is one thing, out of work making no money is another

Steel Life
08-24-2010, 10:41 PM
Been away for awhile, but finally able to jump on & jot some thoughts down...

1. Loved seeing Ben back on the field...loved it more that the announcers didn't dwell on his issues. After a few plays it seemed like everything was back to normal.

2. About Ben...seemed a little antsy, which may have accounted for a couple of shaky passes or leaving the pocket a wee bit early.

3. As for the "deep" pass that been discussed...my perspective is this - there were two factors at play, one being that Ben had to wait to make sure where Wallace was going (continue the streak or come back?) & the second was that he made the decision to drop it in rather than throw it up & let Wallace run under it. Variables like this happen all the time during a game...its not a big deal - especially considering all the clutch passes he's thrown.

4. And now for the back-ups...
Lefty - Fools Gold...one big pass doesn't redeem another iffy performance. The scramble was a fluke & Battle made him look good on a great athletic move. But the fiasco at the goal-line is a harbinger for what we're in for...the fade pass was terrible & the sneak was easily the worst I've ever seen & cost us points. So yeah he's got a gun, but his decisions are crappy & that could cost us during the 1st four.

Dixon - Good decisions...smooth execution, it seems things have slowed down for him & he's under control of the offense. The reason I want him to start is that his running is something that defenses can't account for (like Ben). My thought is this...I don't care how we win the 1st four games - style points mean nothing - I think Dixon gives us the best chance.

5. Red-Zone is turning out to be what we thought Summers would be. Love the way he runs, hard & churning - hungry...hope he keeps it up, wish him all success. Also, liked what I saw from Dwight more than either Summers or Moore...I'm hoping we can stash Dwyer on the PS.

6. Joe Burnett is showing some of the flashes that those of us who saw him play here Florida always thought he could. Hoping he keeps developing because Lewis seems a bit fragile & though Butler seems like a gamer, he'll need some seasoning.

7. Brown vs. Logan - To me Brown showed enough flashes to take the spot & with the pre-season he's had, there's no way he makes it to the PS. Let's not overstate Logan's value - he's good, not great, makes some bonehead decisions at times & can be shaky - which is why we see Moore back there in key situations. Brown has shown too much potential to let him walk & besides - what's wrong with stockpiling talent at WR?

8. O-Line - Pouncy is the real deal. Hills looks like changed man. Foster & Essex seem interchangeable. Hartwig needs to go & Legursky needs to carry his bags. But more importantly, I wanted to see if Hotel still had it. While there is the occasional lapse in pass protection, Flozell is still a beast in the run game & with some studying of the playbook & more familiarity on the line, he'll be fine because we'll need to run to win during the 1st four & be able to close out games like we weren't able to last year. Hopefully we'll see some improvement in Denver.

Good night & good luck.

RuthlessBurgher
08-24-2010, 11:37 PM
Good night & good luck.

Thank you, Mr. Murrow.

NJ-STEELER
08-28-2010, 02:07 AM
somewhere on the world wide web, i wonder if some saints fans are b1tching about brees long TD last night.

throw was at least 10 yards short and he had all day back there to throw.

feltdizz
08-28-2010, 10:20 AM
somewhere on the world wide web, i wonder if some saints fans are b1tching about brees long TD last night.

throw was at least 10 yards short and he had all day back there to throw.

TD>INT

Discussing underthrown/mis-timed passes that result in INT's or INC's when Wallace is open is a totally different thing. Who cares about the Saints anyway?

Watching other games and running on here to say "look what I just saw" or "they did it" doesn't work on here. You can do it with our D, with our OL, with our FO draft decisions and with our playcalling. People complained about our OL and said look at so and so's OL. We look at them and the next game they are missing assignments and the QB is running for his life.

We care about the Wallace connection. Not the Saints connection or the Colts connection. All we want is the ball coming out earlier so Wallace can run under it.

NJ-STEELER
08-29-2010, 03:02 AM
In reality, there are very few (almost none) QBs that consistently hit open deep WRs in stride. Most of them over throw them and waste the play completely, but the good QBs usually err on the side of caution and underthrow; to at least give the WR a chance to make a play

Captain Lemming
08-29-2010, 11:09 AM
In reality, there are very few (almost none) QBs that consistently hit open deep WRs in stride. Most of them over throw them and waste the play completely, but the good QBs usually err on the side of caution and underthrow; to at least give the WR a chance to make a play

This is PRECISELY why Wallace is underthrown so often. Wallace is a freak. The next time Wallace is "overthrown" on a deep route will be the first.

You must "try" to hit Wallace in stride at the least. He will STILL need to slow down because his speed is so strange.

The idea of throwing short allowing the receiver to make a play has to go because Wallace will be too far upfield. Leftwich made that mistake in the first preseason game too.

My guess is that having underthrown Wallace the previous week, Leftwich deliberately threw the ball "uncomfortably" far on that successful bomb.

I think it is hard to "trust" Wallace's speed and that a good throw to him will "feel" overthrown to an experienced QB.

Once that mental adjustment is made by Ben, the full value of the "Wallace Weapon" will be realized.

feltdizz
08-29-2010, 11:50 AM
In reality, there are very few (almost none) QBs that consistently hit open deep WRs in stride. Most of them over throw them and waste the play completely, but the good QBs usually err on the side of caution and underthrow; to at least give the WR a chance to make a play

I disagree.. an overthrown pass isn't a wasted play IMO. Ben isn't underthrowing Wallace out of caution.. it's because he releases it late.

Wallace is 5 yards past the DB half the time so it makes no sense to underthrow him. QB's underthrow WR's when they are draped in coverage because it allows the WR a chance to "stop short"

I have never seen a good QB deliberately underthrow a WR who has 5 yards on the DB.

NJ-STEELER
09-03-2010, 07:00 PM
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-high ... /Rolle-INT (http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d81a38896/Rolle-INT)

Captain Lemming
09-03-2010, 11:19 PM
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d81a38896/Rolle-INT

Great example to show how under throwing a wide open receiver is not a technique to use but can result in missing out on an EASY 7. :wink:

NJ-STEELER
09-04-2010, 02:15 AM
yes

something every QB goes thru.


maybe they dont have "the arm" to throw it long either :wink: