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Shawn
07-07-2010, 09:08 PM
I usually go into each season breaking down each section of offense and defense to look for improvement. I also like to look at the reasons we lost in the previous season.

So, looking at the 2009 season it's obvious we couldn't close games. We lack a closer. We lack the ability to eat clock and stifle opposing Os late. Why?

-There is no doubt Mendenhall has the power to be a short yardage back. But, our O line couldn't beat the Dlines we have played when the opposition knew we were running. It's as simple as that. Mendenhall had no lanes...and often had a guy in his face in those short yardage late game situations.

-Defensive fatigue and injuries were the main reasons we gave up leads. Our D line is old and couldn't hold it together for 4 quarters...certainly not without Smith.

2010

QB situation-it won't help us to have Ben out. But, I do think we go 2-2 without him. There is no reason Ben's absence should cripple us. (worse)

Running Game-I don't see it being vastly improved. With the loss of Colon our OLine will take a significant hit. Pouncey will help...but he is still a rook. Dwyer will help but he can't create lanes like Bettis. Mendenhall will run for 1500 yards but we will still struggle in short yardage situations. (slightly improved)

WRs- The loss of Holmes is a big deal no matter how you slice it. Ward is still nursing two bad hammies and won't make it through the year intact. The addition of the aging ARE was not all that helpful. Battle is very interesting and I'm looking foward to seeing the rooks play. (worse)

Oline- The addition of Pouncey was huge. But, the loss of Colon was just as huge. Even with the new coach I see us struggling early. (same)

Dline-Having Smith back is wonderful. Hood is going to be the real deal and can spell our aging front. (Improved)

Linebackers-Farrior was just bad last season in coverage...and not much better in run support despite getting some decent stats. I do think Timmons will be better this year...and Foote to be an improvement over Farrior. (Improved)

Secondary-Clearly the area we have improved the most. McFadden is terrific in our system. Troy being healthy is a crucial. Our 2nd year guys are coming on. This should be a great year for our secondary. (Huge Improvement)

Questions

Can we close games this season?
Can we find new go to guys on O?
Can we withstand a huge injury?
Will Ben come back and play well?

If we stay healthy there is no reason we won't win 11 games. If we lose Troy or Ben for a significant time...no playoffs again.

SteelCrazy
07-07-2010, 09:38 PM
:brownssuck

jj28west
07-08-2010, 07:32 AM
Nice breakdown assesment. I share many of the same concerns. With money, injuries, etc I cant understand why we do not bring in the D players in a little more early then year two or three.

I know the scheme is complicated but the quicker you sprinke these guys in the quicker the game slows down it would seem. I am sure there is a good reason for the slow maturation. Maybe they are simply not there mentally and it does take time to understand your roles in a 3-4 based on what the offense aligns in.

Steelers>NFL
07-08-2010, 08:05 AM
Nice breakdown assesment. I share many of the same concerns. With money, injuries, etc I cant understand why we do not bring in the D players in a little more early then year two or three.

I know the scheme is complicated but the quicker you sprinke these guys in the quicker the game slows down it would seem. I am sure there is a good reason for the slow maturation. Maybe they are simply not there mentally and it does take time to understand your roles in a 3-4 based on what the offense aligns in.

Agree. Seems like the Steelers are the only team that does not play their rookies.
And by the time they play FT or significant, they are already in year 3 of a 4 or 5 year contract. Let them play. Let them learn on the job training. JC! I understand how complicated the defense schemes are. But at least put them in position where they can play and produce. Let's infuse some youth into this old defense. NOW!

Oviedo
07-08-2010, 08:22 AM
My take on your assessment:

2010

QB situation-I agree that 2-2 is very likely with 3-1 a possibility if the defense plays up to the highest level. Where I disagree is I think Ben will come back on a mission and totally focused. He will come back wanting to prove something to the world. If channeled properly this could be a huge lift. My assessment: same

Running Game-Colon is a huge loss which is why with no cap I think the FO needs to go out and sign the best veteran they can find for the OL. As far as the RBs themselves I actually expect them to do better than last year. I think Mendy will improve and I think Dwyer will prove to be at least as good as FWP was last year. I also expect Summers to improve. I want Sean McHugh to make the roster over David Johnson because IMO McHugh is a much better lead blocker out of the backfield. My assessment: slightly improved only because the Colon loss will hold them back from a major improvement.

WRs- I agree Holmes is a huge loss but lets face it this was going to be his last year here anyway. I also agree that Hines will not play in 16 regular season games. Where we differ is that I look at this a a receiver corps (includes TEs and RBs) not just outside guys. I think the loss of Holmes can be mitigated with Miller and other TEs getting more looks. Spaeth is an excellent receiver who has been underutilized here in that role. I also think that Mendy can be a 30-40 catch guy. Key to this is to reign in Ben's penchant for wanting to force the ball downfield. Iactually think that Lefty can set the tone in this respect in the first four games and lay out a template for success by using the TEs and RBs more since he seems to be more willing to do that than Ben. Hopefully Ben watches and his eyes are opened. My assessment: Same if implemented as described

Oline- As I said Sean Kugler is the team's most important off season addition. I expect the player on the OL to all improve individually. Key is how to they improve collectively. I think an adequete solution will be found externally or coached up internally at RT. My assessment: Same

Dline-I think Smith back is great but the key to the DL will be an apparently recommited Hampton and an improving Hood. I think Hood will have a monster year relieveing Smith and he will make Smith better by allowing him to get a breather and stay fresh. Kiesel is one of the most underrated players in the NFL and will have another good season. My assessment: Improved

Linebackers-I actually see this as an area of concern. IMO Farrior is a situational player now but getting Foote back can help. My major concern is James Harrison (Are we seeing the Jason Gildon situation repeated) and his only getting 2 sacks in the final 8 games. Yes he was held but so what. He gets paid to beat that and needs to figure out how. Woodley needs to start playing before mid season and pile up sacks early especially in those critical first four games. The key to the LBs is Timmons and I expect him to have a breakout season. I think he will get double digit sacks plus play superior pass coverage. My assessment: Improved because of Timmons

Secondary-Troy has to stay healthy which means LeBeau has to stop playing mad scientist with him and get him off the line of scrimmage and back playing a more centerfield role. Transition the mad scientist plays to Timmons but keep Troy back and healthy. Bmac being back will help and he fits the system well but I think we see major improvements from Burnett and Lewis who will push Bmac and Gay and force them to be better or be out. Will Allen will be a huge insurance policy if Troy gets hurt and a vast improvement over Ty Carter. My assessment: Improved

Special teams-I add this because I expect to see vastly improved special teams play with the additions of Battle and Allen, the additional experience of Burnett and Lewis plus the addition of rookies Worilds and Gibson. We have addedd better athletes to the ST unit for coverage. I also expect that Sanders and/or Brown will push Logan off the roster and still provide a solid return game. My assessment: Improved

flippy
07-08-2010, 08:39 AM
I share none of your concerns :wink

This is practically the same team that won a SuperBowl 2 years ago. No reason we can't do it again. Plus we've added some young talent.

Oviedo
07-08-2010, 09:37 AM
I share none of your concerns :wink

This is practically the same team that won a SuperBowl 2 years ago. No reason we can't do it again. Plus we've added some young talent.

Hopefully that young talent can get on the field especially on defense. I think the offense has done a good job every year of getting young players playing time (Summers before he was hurt, Wallace, Foster, David Johnson, etc.). That sems to be an elusive concept for the defense and as we saw last season the defensive player may need a breather more than they are getting.

SteelerNation1
07-08-2010, 10:00 AM
A couple quick takes on your assessment Shawn. 1st, I think the Ol will be just fine w/o Colon. I was never a big Colon fan, so I'm in that camp. He is a serviceable OL, definitely replaceable IMO.

I think the emergence of Mike Wallace and the long overdue use of Heath Miller are the keys to our offensive season. If Heath can have a 2009 Dallas Clark type of yr, then Tone will be an afterthought.

On D, staying healthy is going to be key. With Ike in a contract yr I look for another solid season out of him. He's got one more potentially large payday looming at the end of 2010. As I have said before, either Joe Burnett or Keenan Lewis are going to have to take that 1st--->2nd year leap. One of those two has to step up and be counted on to play a large roll in the secondary in 2010 and beyond.

Oviedo
07-08-2010, 10:10 AM
If Heath can have a 2009 Dallas Clark type of yr, then Tone will be an afterthought.

I agree about Heath. he is the key on the offense but the success will have to come out of clear intent and not accident. In other words he needs to have the plays called where he is the primary target not #2 or #3 in the prograssion.

If they do it right, Miller can get 70+ catches. Add Mendy getting 30-40 catches and we will be fine on offense.

Captain Lemming
07-08-2010, 10:43 AM
I share none of your concerns :wink

This is practically the same team that won a SuperBowl 2 years ago. No reason we can't do it again. Plus we've added some young talent. No Santonio and no SB that year.

Captain Lemming
07-08-2010, 11:10 AM
My take on your assessment:

2010

QB situation-I agree that 2-2 is very likely with 3-1 a possibility if the defense plays up to the highest level. Where I disagree is I think Ben will come back on a mission and totally focused. He will come back wanting to prove something to the world. If channeled properly this could be a huge lift. My assessment: same

Running Game-Colon is a huge loss which is why with no cap I think the FO needs to go out and sign the best veteran they can find for the OL. As far as the RBs themselves I actually expect them to do better than last year. I think Mendy will improve and I think Dwyer will prove to be at least as good as FWP was last year. I also expect Summers to improve. I want Sean McHugh to make the roster over David Johnson because IMO McHugh is a much better lead blocker out of the backfield. My assessment: slightly improved only because the Colon loss will hold them back from a major improvement.

WRs- I agree Holmes is a huge loss but lets face it this was going to be his last year here anyway. I also agree that Hines will not play in 16 regular season games. Where we differ is that I look at this a a receiver corps (includes TEs and RBs) not just outside guys. I think the loss of Holmes can be mitigated with Miller and other TEs getting more looks. Spaeth is an excellent receiver who has been underutilized here in that role. I also think that Mendy can be a 30-40 catch guy. Key to this is to reign in Ben's penchant for wanting to force the ball downfield. Iactually think that Lefty can set the tone in this respect in the first four games and lay out a template for success by using the TEs and RBs more since he seems to be more willing to do that than Ben. Hopefully Ben watches and his eyes are opened. My assessment: Same if implemented as described

Oline- As I said Sean Kugler is the team's most important off season addition. I expect the player on the OL to all improve individually. Key is how to they improve collectively. I think an adequete solution will be found externally or coached up internally at RT. My assessment: Same

Dline-I think Smith back is great but the key to the DL will be an apparently recommited Hampton and an improving Hood. I think Hood will have a monster year relieveing Smith and he will make Smith better by allowing him to get a breather and stay fresh. Kiesel is one of the most underrated players in the NFL and will have another good season. My assessment: Improved

Linebackers-I actually see this as an area of concern. IMO Farrior is a situational player now but getting Foote back can help. My major concern is James Harrison (Are we seeing the Jason Gildon situation repeated) and his only getting 2 sacks in the final 8 games. Yes he was held but so what. He gets paid to beat that and needs to figure out how. Woodley needs to start playing before mid season and pile up sacks early especially in those critical first four games. The key to the LBs is Timmons and I expect him to have a breakout season. I think he will get double digit sacks plus play superior pass coverage. My assessment: Improved because of Timmons

Secondary-Troy has to stay healthy which means LeBeau has to stop playing mad scientist with him and get him off the line of scrimmage and back playing a more centerfield role. Transition the mad scientist plays to Timmons but keep Troy back and healthy. Bmac being back will help and he fits the system well but I think we see major improvements from Burnett and Lewis who will push Bmac and Gay and force them to be better or be out. Will Allen will be a huge insurance policy if Troy gets hurt and a vast improvement over Ty Carter. My assessment: Improved

Special teams-I add this because I expect to see vastly improved special teams play with the additions of Battle and Allen, the additional experience of Burnett and Lewis plus the addition of rookies Worilds and Gibson. We have addedd better athletes to the ST unit for coverage. I also expect that Sanders and/or Brown will push Logan off the roster and still provide a solid return game. My assessment: Improved

Come on dude. You realize that you are spinning it like NO POSITION WILL SUFFER despite losing Ben for at least four games, losing a top receiver, and a tackle. All the same or better.

Just one example:
Being forced to throw more to the tight ends DOES NOT make up for the loss of a star receiver. Miller and Spaeth are already at their peak, they will not get better. They could likely get more looks true, and have career years. But our receivers (including tight ends) will not improve as a group based on that.

I would rather Ben have the luxury of having both one or more receivers open AND the tight end open, than one position forced to cover for an overall loss of talent at another position.

The rapid growth of Wallace who IS a pup with upside, and how well the new additions play will determine whether the position is weaker. I cannot feel that our receivers will not be worse off without Tone.

Shawn
07-08-2010, 11:58 AM
A couple quick takes on your assessment Shawn. 1st, I think the Ol will be just fine w/o Colon. I was never a big Colon fan, so I'm in that camp. He is a serviceable OL, definitely replaceable IMO.

I think the emergence of Mike Wallace and the long overdue use of Heath Miller are the keys to our offensive season. If Heath can have a 2009 Dallas Clark type of yr, then Tone will be an afterthought.

On D, staying healthy is going to be key. With Ike in a contract yr I look for another solid season out of him. He's got one more potentially large payday looming at the end of 2010. As I have said before, either Joe Burnett or Keenan Lewis are going to have to take that 1st--->2nd year leap. One of those two has to step up and be counted on to play a large roll in the secondary in 2010 and beyond.

I hear ya but I'm not sure how anyone can be excited about losing one of your elite WRs and having an aging dinged up Ward. Our 1/2 either gone...or seeing serious wear. While I believe Wallace to be the real deal he could see a sophmore slump. He will face better DBs and won't surprise anyone this season. He might even see alot of double coverage. I see our WR core as being our biggest question mark. It doesn't mean we won't overcome but I am concerned. Our rooks need to show up early this season.

Shawn
07-08-2010, 12:03 PM
If Heath can have a 2009 Dallas Clark type of yr, then Tone will be an afterthought.

I agree about Heath. he is the key on the offense but the success will have to come out of clear intent and not accident. In other words he needs to have the plays called where he is the primary target not #2 or #3 in the prograssion.

If they do it right, Miller can get 70+ catches. Add Mendy getting 30-40 catches and we will be fine on offense.

Miller isn't Holmes. Apples and oranges. Having a wide out that a D has to account for every play is huge. Miller's presence allows us to pass from running formations but he is no slot. So, when we need to grab quick points and go 4/5 wide Miller is a liability despite popular notion to the contrary. When Miller is forced to play a WR position he would be nothing more than a slowish WR with good hands.

Oviedo
07-08-2010, 12:05 PM
My take on your assessment:

2010

QB situation-I agree that 2-2 is very likely with 3-1 a possibility if the defense plays up to the highest level. Where I disagree is I think Ben will come back on a mission and totally focused. He will come back wanting to prove something to the world. If channeled properly this could be a huge lift. My assessment: same

Running Game-Colon is a huge loss which is why with no cap I think the FO needs to go out and sign the best veteran they can find for the OL. As far as the RBs themselves I actually expect them to do better than last year. I think Mendy will improve and I think Dwyer will prove to be at least as good as FWP was last year. I also expect Summers to improve. I want Sean McHugh to make the roster over David Johnson because IMO McHugh is a much better lead blocker out of the backfield. My assessment: slightly improved only because the Colon loss will hold them back from a major improvement.

WRs- I agree Holmes is a huge loss but lets face it this was going to be his last year here anyway. I also agree that Hines will not play in 16 regular season games. Where we differ is that I look at this a a receiver corps (includes TEs and RBs) not just outside guys. I think the loss of Holmes can be mitigated with Miller and other TEs getting more looks. Spaeth is an excellent receiver who has been underutilized here in that role. I also think that Mendy can be a 30-40 catch guy. Key to this is to reign in Ben's penchant for wanting to force the ball downfield. Iactually think that Lefty can set the tone in this respect in the first four games and lay out a template for success by using the TEs and RBs more since he seems to be more willing to do that than Ben. Hopefully Ben watches and his eyes are opened. My assessment: Same if implemented as described

Oline- As I said Sean Kugler is the team's most important off season addition. I expect the player on the OL to all improve individually. Key is how to they improve collectively. I think an adequete solution will be found externally or coached up internally at RT. My assessment: Same

Dline-I think Smith back is great but the key to the DL will be an apparently recommited Hampton and an improving Hood. I think Hood will have a monster year relieveing Smith and he will make Smith better by allowing him to get a breather and stay fresh. Kiesel is one of the most underrated players in the NFL and will have another good season. My assessment: Improved

Linebackers-I actually see this as an area of concern. IMO Farrior is a situational player now but getting Foote back can help. My major concern is James Harrison (Are we seeing the Jason Gildon situation repeated) and his only getting 2 sacks in the final 8 games. Yes he was held but so what. He gets paid to beat that and needs to figure out how. Woodley needs to start playing before mid season and pile up sacks early especially in those critical first four games. The key to the LBs is Timmons and I expect him to have a breakout season. I think he will get double digit sacks plus play superior pass coverage. My assessment: Improved because of Timmons

Secondary-Troy has to stay healthy which means LeBeau has to stop playing mad scientist with him and get him off the line of scrimmage and back playing a more centerfield role. Transition the mad scientist plays to Timmons but keep Troy back and healthy. Bmac being back will help and he fits the system well but I think we see major improvements from Burnett and Lewis who will push Bmac and Gay and force them to be better or be out. Will Allen will be a huge insurance policy if Troy gets hurt and a vast improvement over Ty Carter. My assessment: Improved

Special teams-I add this because I expect to see vastly improved special teams play with the additions of Battle and Allen, the additional experience of Burnett and Lewis plus the addition of rookies Worilds and Gibson. We have addedd better athletes to the ST unit for coverage. I also expect that Sanders and/or Brown will push Logan off the roster and still provide a solid return game. My assessment: Improved

Come on dude. You realize that you are spinning it like NO POSITION WILL SUFFER despite losing Ben for at least four games, losing a top receiver, and a tackle. All the same or better.

Just one example:
Being forced to throw more to the tight ends DOES NOT make up for the loss of a star receiver. Miller and Spaeth are already at their peak, they will not get better. They could likely get more looks true, and have career years. But our receivers (including tight ends) will not improve as a group based on that.

I would rather Ben have the luxury of having both one or more receivers open AND the tight end open, than one position forced to cover for an overall loss of talent at another position.

The rapid growth of Wallace who IS a pup with upside, and how well the new additions play will determine whether the position is weaker. I cannot feel that our receivers will not be worse off without Tone.


Last year with Ben, Colon and Stupidio we missed the playoffs, so yes overall we can do the "same"

You discount increased contributions from other players and assume that they will remain statis in their performance. My assessment is that we will see sufficent improvements across the board that it will make up for the loss of Colon and Stupidio and the short term loss of Ben. Specifically I see this as a better defense that won't blow so many leads.

Captain Lemming
07-08-2010, 02:23 PM
Come on dude. You realize that you are spinning it like NO POSITION WILL SUFFER despite losing Ben for at least four games, losing a top receiver, and a tackle. All the same or better.

Just one example:
Being forced to throw more to the tight ends DOES NOT make up for the loss of a star receiver. Miller and Spaeth are already at their peak, they will not get better. They could likely get more looks true, and have career years. But our receivers (including tight ends) will not improve as a group based on that.

I would rather Ben have the luxury of having both one or more receivers open AND the tight end open, than one position forced to cover for an overall loss of talent at another position.

The rapid growth of Wallace who IS a pup with upside, and how well the new additions play will determine whether the position is weaker. I cannot feel that our receivers will not be worse off without Tone.


Last year with Ben, Colon and Stupidio we missed the playoffs, so yes overall we can do the "same"

You discount increased contributions from other players and assume that they will remain statis in their performance. My assessment is that we will see sufficent improvements across the board that it will make up for the loss of Colon and Stupidio and the short term loss of Ben. Specifically I see this as a better defense that won't blow so many leads.

I dont disagree with THIS statement at all. I am hopeful of this.

But you can be the same or even improve overall as a team while honestly acknowledging concern over some areas. And no expressing "concern" over the linebackers THEN predicting improvement in that unit, doesnt count. :D

Shawn just did that predicting an overall improved team, despite flaws.

I can say "if Leftwich just has 4 straight games like his 2nd half against Washington when he was last a Steeler" we will be 4-0 not miss Ben AT ALL and it would be true. And "possible".

But it would not be "likely" since he has never sustained that level of play.

I see your take as what we would "like" to happen, best case scenario type stuff.

I do hope you are absolutely right

ikestops85
07-08-2010, 02:54 PM
If Heath can have a 2009 Dallas Clark type of yr, then Tone will be an afterthought.

I agree about Heath. he is the key on the offense but the success will have to come out of clear intent and not accident. In other words he needs to have the plays called where he is the primary target not #2 or #3 in the prograssion.

If they do it right, Miller can get 70+ catches. Add Mendy getting 30-40 catches and we will be fine on offense.

Miller isn't Holmes. Apples and oranges. Having a wide out that a D has to account for every play is huge. Miller's presence allows us to pass from running formations but he is no slot. So, when we need to grab quick points and go 4/5 wide Miller is a liability despite popular notion to the contrary. When Miller is forced to play a WR position he would be nothing more than a slowish WR with good hands.

Yep, that's what they say about Gates, Gonzalez, Witten, Clark, Shockey, Cooley and Winslow. They always take those guys out for a wide receiver on passing downs because they are so slow. :roll:

Sorry but I couldn't help the sarcasm but I feel you are way off base with that statement. :D

Captain Lemming
07-08-2010, 04:21 PM
Yep, that's what they say about Gates, Gonzalez, Witten, Clark, Shockey, Cooley and Winslow. They always take those guys out for a wide receiver on passing downs because they are so slow. :roll:

Sorry but I couldn't help the sarcasm but I feel you are way off base with that statement. :D

I wont go as far as Shawn but the point is that Miller does not "replace" the loss of "I'mStonio".

3 wides Miller is still in, but Holmes is essentially now Randall El or whoever the third receiver ends up being. We can throw more to Miller sure but it is an overall "loss" to the receiving talent.

Shawn
07-08-2010, 10:19 PM
If Heath can have a 2009 Dallas Clark type of yr, then Tone will be an afterthought.

I agree about Heath. he is the key on the offense but the success will have to come out of clear intent and not accident. In other words he needs to have the plays called where he is the primary target not #2 or #3 in the prograssion.

If they do it right, Miller can get 70+ catches. Add Mendy getting 30-40 catches and we will be fine on offense.

Miller isn't Holmes. Apples and oranges. Having a wide out that a D has to account for every play is huge. Miller's presence allows us to pass from running formations but he is no slot. So, when we need to grab quick points and go 4/5 wide Miller is a liability despite popular notion to the contrary. When Miller is forced to play a WR position he would be nothing more than a slowish WR with good hands.

Yep, that's what they say about Gates, Gonzalez, Witten, Clark, Shockey, Cooley and Winslow. They always take those guys out for a wide receiver on passing downs because they are so slow. :roll:

Sorry but I couldn't help the sarcasm but I feel you are way off base with that statement. :D

This contention that TEs are generally the same thing as WRs is short sighted at best. The loss of Holmes was huge whether or not fans want to recognize that. Simply throwing more balls to Miller won't keep the safety out of the box for run support. To stick him in as a slot type WR in 4/5 wide formations is also fitting a square peg in a round hole.

Only fans can believe taking away a 1000 yard receiver can be a good thing because they will throw more to the TE, It makes little sense.

Shawn
07-08-2010, 10:21 PM
Yep, that's what they say about Gates, Gonzalez, Witten, Clark, Shockey, Cooley and Winslow. They always take those guys out for a wide receiver on passing downs because they are so slow. :roll:

Sorry but I couldn't help the sarcasm but I feel you are way off base with that statement. :D

I wont go as far as Shawn but the point is that Miller does not "replace" the loss of "I'mStonio".

3 wides Miller is still in, but Holmes is essentially now Randall El or whoever the third receiver ends up being. We can throw more to Miller sure but it is an overall "loss" to the receiving talent.

I didn't say he shouldn't be in on 3 wide situations. I said he isn't a slot WR for 4/5 wide scenerios nor does throwing to him more make up for the loss of Holmes.

stlrz d
07-08-2010, 11:39 PM
If Heath can have a 2009 Dallas Clark type of yr, then Tone will be an afterthought.

I agree about Heath. he is the key on the offense but the success will have to come out of clear intent and not accident. In other words he needs to have the plays called where he is the primary target not #2 or #3 in the prograssion.

If they do it right, Miller can get 70+ catches. Add Mendy getting 30-40 catches and we will be fine on offense.

Miller isn't Holmes. Apples and oranges. Having a wide out that a D has to account for every play is huge. Miller's presence allows us to pass from running formations but he is no slot. So, when we need to grab quick points and go 4/5 wide Miller is a liability despite popular notion to the contrary. When Miller is forced to play a WR position he would be nothing more than a slowish WR with good hands.

Yep, that's what they say about Gates, Gonzalez, Witten, Clark, Shockey, Cooley and Winslow. They always take those guys out for a wide receiver on passing downs because they are so slow. :roll:

Sorry but I couldn't help the sarcasm but I feel you are way off base with that statement. :D

This contention that TEs are generally the same thing as WRs is short sighted at best. The loss of Holmes was huge whether or not fans want to recognize that. Simply throwing more balls to Miller won't keep the safety out of the box for run support. To stick him in as a slot type WR in 4/5 wide formations is also fitting a square peg in a round hole.

Only fans can believe taking away a 1000 yard receiver can be a good thing because they will throw more to the TE, It makes little sense.

The safety typically covers the TE anyway so the loss of Holmes doesn't change that.

Shawn
07-09-2010, 12:31 AM
Really? I thought it depended on the defense that is called. The SS plays over the TE but that doesn't mean he will cover the TE. In cover 2 man type situations a LBr will cover the TE. The SS has more variability in that he can play in the box or be used for deep support. With the loss of Holmes...the SS can be used more often to either blitz or to provide TE coverage in blitz situations. Ask Ben what the loss of Burress meant to his ability to throw the ball. This will be a similar situation.

stlrz d
07-09-2010, 08:09 AM
Really? I thought it depended on the defense that is called. The SS plays over the TE but that doesn't mean he will cover the TE. In cover 2 man type situations a LBr will cover the TE. The SS has more variability in that he can play in the box or be used for deep support. With the loss of Holmes...the SS can be used more often to either blitz or to provide TE coverage in blitz situations. Ask Ben what the loss of Burress meant to his ability to throw the ball. This will be a similar situation.

I hope teams try to use a LB to cover Miller.

If Wallace is able to produce as anticipated then I have no worries about what Ward, ARE and Miller can do. And of course we have yet to see what Sanders and Brown are capable of. If either of them is able to contribute then we're in good shape. Maybe not great shape, but good shape. Holmes was a very good weapon for us, but not a great one. He would disappear in some games. That rarely happens to the great ones. People wrung their hands in worry when Burress was left to FA and we won a SB the following year without him.

Let teams stack the box against us...we thrive on that.

Oviedo
07-09-2010, 08:34 AM
Really? I thought it depended on the defense that is called. The SS plays over the TE but that doesn't mean he will cover the TE. In cover 2 man type situations a LBr will cover the TE. The SS has more variability in that he can play in the box or be used for deep support. With the loss of Holmes...the SS can be used more often to either blitz or to provide TE coverage in blitz situations. Ask Ben what the loss of Burress meant to his ability to throw the ball. This will be a similar situation.

I hope teams try to use a LB to cover Miller.

If Wallace is able to produce as anticipated then I have no worries about what Ward, ARE and Miller can do. And of course we have yet to see what Sanders and Brown are capable of. If either of them is able to contribute then we're in good shape. Maybe not great shape, but good shape. Holmes was a very good weapon for us, but not a great one. He would disappear in some games. That rarely happens to the great ones. People wrung their hands in worry when Burress was left to FA and we won a SB the following year without him.

Let teams stack the box against us...we thrive on that.

Your thoughts are exactly in line with my original premise. I never said that we would use Heath or any other TE like Holmes or that they were the same type of player. My point was that you can make up for Holmes' 90 catches by incrreasing the production at other places. Heath is clearly not capable of doing what Holmes did but he can do more than he has been doing.

Holmes averaged 15.8 yards per reception versus Miller's 10.4 yards per reception. So you definitley lose some of your deep game but that doesn't mean that you can't have just an effective passing game. It means that you have to do it differently with different patterns and a more deliberate approach. My contention has always been that Ben is a better QB when he focuses on short to mid range patterns anyway.

ikestops85
07-09-2010, 11:45 AM
Really? I thought it depended on the defense that is called. The SS plays over the TE but that doesn't mean he will cover the TE. In cover 2 man type situations a LBr will cover the TE. The SS has more variability in that he can play in the box or be used for deep support. With the loss of Holmes...the SS can be used more often to either blitz or to provide TE coverage in blitz situations. Ask Ben what the loss of Burress meant to his ability to throw the ball. This will be a similar situation.

I hope teams try to use a LB to cover Miller.

If Wallace is able to produce as anticipated then I have no worries about what Ward, ARE and Miller can do. And of course we have yet to see what Sanders and Brown are capable of. If either of them is able to contribute then we're in good shape. Maybe not great shape, but good shape. Holmes was a very good weapon for us, but not a great one. He would disappear in some games. That rarely happens to the great ones. People wrung their hands in worry when Burress was left to FA and we won a SB the following year without him.

Let teams stack the box against us...we thrive on that.

Your thoughts are exactly in line with my original premise. I never said that we would use Heath or any other TE like Holmes or that they were the same type of player. My point was that you can make up for Holmes' 90 catches by incrreasing the production at other places. Heath is clearly not capable of doing what Holmes did but he can do more than he has been doing.

Holmes averaged 15.8 yards per reception versus Miller's 10.4 yards per reception. So you definitley lose some of your deep game but that doesn't mean that you can't have just an effective passing game. It means that you have to do it differently with different patterns and a more deliberate approach. My contention has always been that Ben is a better QB when he focuses on short to mid range patterns anyway.

Well said O ... I don't want to minimize what the loss of Holmes will do to us but Miller has proven to be a weapon which can be used more often than he is. We also have a guy named Logan who sits on the bench that has big play ability. I think we have more than enough offensive weapons. We just need to find a way to use them.

What worries me more is the loss of Colon and how that well affect our improving offensive line. Also whether our defense will return to the form we have grown to know and love.

Oviedo
07-09-2010, 01:03 PM
Really? I thought it depended on the defense that is called. The SS plays over the TE but that doesn't mean he will cover the TE. In cover 2 man type situations a LBr will cover the TE. The SS has more variability in that he can play in the box or be used for deep support. With the loss of Holmes...the SS can be used more often to either blitz or to provide TE coverage in blitz situations. Ask Ben what the loss of Burress meant to his ability to throw the ball. This will be a similar situation.

I hope teams try to use a LB to cover Miller.

If Wallace is able to produce as anticipated then I have no worries about what Ward, ARE and Miller can do. And of course we have yet to see what Sanders and Brown are capable of. If either of them is able to contribute then we're in good shape. Maybe not great shape, but good shape. Holmes was a very good weapon for us, but not a great one. He would disappear in some games. That rarely happens to the great ones. People wrung their hands in worry when Burress was left to FA and we won a SB the following year without him.

Let teams stack the box against us...we thrive on that.

Your thoughts are exactly in line with my original premise. I never said that we would use Heath or any other TE like Holmes or that they were the same type of player. My point was that you can make up for Holmes' 90 catches by incrreasing the production at other places. Heath is clearly not capable of doing what Holmes did but he can do more than he has been doing.

Holmes averaged 15.8 yards per reception versus Miller's 10.4 yards per reception. So you definitley lose some of your deep game but that doesn't mean that you can't have just an effective passing game. It means that you have to do it differently with different patterns and a more deliberate approach. My contention has always been that Ben is a better QB when he focuses on short to mid range patterns anyway.

Well said O ... I don't want to minimize what the loss of Holmes will do to us but Miller has proven to be a weapon which can be used more often than he is. We also have a guy named Logan who sits on the bench that has big play ability. I think we have more than enough offensive weapons. We just need to find a way to use them.

What worries me more is the loss of Colon and how that well affect our improving offensive line. Also whether our defense will return to the form we have grown to know and love.


IMO Manny Sanders and Antonio Brown will make Stefan Logan obsolete. I think Manny Sanders can have close to a Mike Wallace like impact as a rookie. While they are different style players with Wallace being a burner and Sanders being a catch and run guy the impact of the latter can be significant.

Shawn
07-09-2010, 05:57 PM
Really? I thought it depended on the defense that is called. The SS plays over the TE but that doesn't mean he will cover the TE. In cover 2 man type situations a LBr will cover the TE. The SS has more variability in that he can play in the box or be used for deep support. With the loss of Holmes...the SS can be used more often to either blitz or to provide TE coverage in blitz situations. Ask Ben what the loss of Burress meant to his ability to throw the ball. This will be a similar situation.

I hope teams try to use a LB to cover Miller.

If Wallace is able to produce as anticipated then I have no worries about what Ward, ARE and Miller can do. And of course we have yet to see what Sanders and Brown are capable of. If either of them is able to contribute then we're in good shape. Maybe not great shape, but good shape. Holmes was a very good weapon for us, but not a great one. He would disappear in some games. That rarely happens to the great ones. People wrung their hands in worry when Burress was left to FA and we won a SB the following year without him.

Let teams stack the box against us...we thrive on that.

Really? You don't think LBrs can cover a guy who runs a 4.8 40?

And about the others we have a young buck with talent but has only played the slot. He has never faced expectations on the pro level. Ward has been a rock for our O and I highly doubt he makes it through this season with 2 bad hammys. ARE is not the ARE we grew to love...he is much slower. The other guys are unknown rookies.]

Anyway fans want to slice it...the WR position is a concern.

stlrz d
07-09-2010, 11:03 PM
Really? I thought it depended on the defense that is called. The SS plays over the TE but that doesn't mean he will cover the TE. In cover 2 man type situations a LBr will cover the TE. The SS has more variability in that he can play in the box or be used for deep support. With the loss of Holmes...the SS can be used more often to either blitz or to provide TE coverage in blitz situations. Ask Ben what the loss of Burress meant to his ability to throw the ball. This will be a similar situation.

I hope teams try to use a LB to cover Miller.

If Wallace is able to produce as anticipated then I have no worries about what Ward, ARE and Miller can do. And of course we have yet to see what Sanders and Brown are capable of. If either of them is able to contribute then we're in good shape. Maybe not great shape, but good shape. Holmes was a very good weapon for us, but not a great one. He would disappear in some games. That rarely happens to the great ones. People wrung their hands in worry when Burress was left to FA and we won a SB the following year without him.

Let teams stack the box against us...we thrive on that.

Really? You don't think LBrs can cover a guy who runs a 4.8 40?

And about the others we have a young buck with talent but has only played the slot. He has never faced expectations on the pro level. Ward has been a rock for our O and I highly doubt he makes it through this season with 2 bad hammys. ARE is not the ARE we grew to love...he is much slower. The other guys are unknown rookies.]

Anyway fans want to slice it...the WR position is a concern.

It's not about 40 times, it's about route running. Miller is a good route runner and he knows how to find open spots. Like I said, I hope teams try to cover him with a linebacker. That's a total mismatch in our favor. As RB pointed out, Ward is coming off back to back 1000 yard seasons and ARE has had 50+ receptions the past two seasons. He, like Ward and Miller, knows how to get open and doesn't need blazing speed to do so. And keep in mind, we have a QB who keeps the play alive until these guys get open. Holmes benefited greatly from that just as the others have. Once Ben returns they will all benefit from it again.

Shawn
07-10-2010, 01:16 AM
[quote=Shawn]Really? I thought it depended on the defense that is called. The SS plays over the TE but that doesn't mean he will cover the TE. In cover 2 man type situations a LBr will cover the TE. The SS has more variability in that he can play in the box or be used for deep support. With the loss of Holmes...the SS can be used more often to either blitz or to provide TE coverage in blitz situations. Ask Ben what the loss of Burress meant to his ability to throw the ball. This will be a similar situation.

I hope teams try to use a LB to cover Miller.

If Wallace is able to produce as anticipated then I have no worries about what Ward, ARE and Miller can do. And of course we have yet to see what Sanders and Brown are capable of. If either of them is able to contribute then we're in good shape. Maybe not great shape, but good shape. Holmes was a very good weapon for us, but not a great one. He would disappear in some games. That rarely happens to the great ones. People wrung their hands in worry when Burress was left to FA and we won a SB the following year without him.

Let teams stack the box against us...we thrive on that.

Really? You don't think LBrs can cover a guy who runs a 4.8 40?

And about the others we have a young buck with talent but has only played the slot. He has never faced expectations on the pro level. Ward has been a rock for our O and I highly doubt he makes it through this season with 2 bad hammys. ARE is not the ARE we grew to love...he is much slower. The other guys are unknown rookies.]

Anyway fans want to slice it...the WR position is a concern.

It's not about 40 times, it's about route running. Miller is a good route runner and he knows how to find open spots. Like I said, I hope teams try to cover him with a linebacker. That's a total mismatch in our favor. As RB pointed out, Ward is coming off back to back 1000 yard seasons and ARE has had 50+ receptions the past two seasons. He, like Ward and Miller, knows how to get open and doesn't need blazing speed to do so. And keep in mind, we have a QB who keeps the play alive until these guys get open. Holmes benefited greatly from that just as the others have. Once Ben returns they will all benefit from it again.[/quote:1rwvuxnd]

You won't hear me disagree with that. Miller is indeed a good route runner and an underutilized part of our O. But, I don't believe most LBrs have an inability to cover Miller. Placing a smallish 5 foot 10 nickle back on him could be considered a mismatch as well. While Miller is good...he is not dominant. He is a good all around TE...does everything well. And throwing to him will help...but it won't uncrowd the box. It won't keep the safeties honest. The loss of Holmes was massive. When you have two guys who can stretch the field it keeps both safeties honest. You just can't place a value on that. That's all I am saying.

RuthlessBurgher
07-10-2010, 11:17 AM
And about the others we have a young buck with talent but has only played the slot. He has never faced expectations on the pro level. Ward has been a rock for our O and I highly doubt he makes it through this season with 2 bad hammys. ARE is not the ARE we grew to love...he is much slower. The other guys are unknown rookies.]

Anyway fans want to slice it...the WR position is a concern.

Wallace was our 3rd WR last year, but he did not play the slot. When he came in, he played on the outside and either Hines or Tone moved inside. So Wallace is not adapting to a totally new position or anything. He'll be doing what he was doing last year, only doing it more often (and against better corners on a consistent basis).

Hines has back to back 1000 yard seasons. His 95 catches for 1167 yards was the second highest season total in his career behind the 112 catches for 1329 yards in 2002 he had in 2002. If he's healthy, he'll get another 1000 season like he has every season in which he was able to start for 16 games.

Randle El is coming off three consecutive seasons of 50 or more catches in Washington (he never had 50 catches once in his 4 seasons in Pittsburgh when he was much faster). Like Hines, El's game is about finding holes in coverage. Since they both have experience playing QB, they are able to think like a QB and find the open spots in the defense. This is more about savvy than speed.

The rookies are unknown, but you never know what you might unearth. At this point last year, no one was expecting all that much out of Mike Wallace, and he flourished. I think that our WR corps is well balanced with veteran savvy from Ward, Randle El, and Battle and youth talents like Wallace, Sanders, and Brown.

Shawn
07-10-2010, 05:42 PM
And about the others we have a young buck with talent but has only played the slot. He has never faced expectations on the pro level. Ward has been a rock for our O and I highly doubt he makes it through this season with 2 bad hammys. ARE is not the ARE we grew to love...he is much slower. The other guys are unknown rookies.]

Anyway fans want to slice it...the WR position is a concern.

Wallace was our 3rd WR last year, but he did not play the slot. When he came in, he played on the outside and either Hines or Tone moved inside. So Wallace is not adapting to a totally new position or anything. He'll be doing what he was doing last year, only doing it more often (and against better corners on a consistent basis).

Hines has back to back 1000 yard seasons. His 95 catches for 1167 yards was the second highest season total in his career behind the 112 catches for 1329 yards in 2002 he had in 2002. If he's healthy, he'll get another 1000 season like he has every season in which he was able to start for 16 games.

Randle El is coming off three consecutive seasons of 50 or more catches in Washington (he never had 50 catches once in his 4 seasons in Pittsburgh when he was much faster). Like Hines, El's game is about finding holes in coverage. Since they both have experience playing QB, they are able to think like a QB and find the open spots in the defense. This is more about savvy than speed.

The rookies are unknown, but you never know what you might unearth. At this point last year, no one was expecting all that much out of Mike Wallace, and he flourished. I think that our WR corps is well balanced with veteran savvy from Ward, Randle El, and Battle and youth talents like Wallace, Sanders, and Brown.

I realize I worded it wrong after I wrote it. Wallace has played on the outside with Holmes and Ward on the field. Wallace will not see a completely new position but will see better DB talent. He and not Ward will be who they concentrate on because he is a game changer. He will also see more double teams as they no longer have to focus on Holmes. And while fans might be optimistic...I think it's through BnG glasses. It's certainly a concern. It's not something we can't overcome but it has to be our biggest question mark going into the season.

RuthlessBurgher
07-10-2010, 10:44 PM
And about the others we have a young buck with talent but has only played the slot. He has never faced expectations on the pro level. Ward has been a rock for our O and I highly doubt he makes it through this season with 2 bad hammys. ARE is not the ARE we grew to love...he is much slower. The other guys are unknown rookies.]

Anyway fans want to slice it...the WR position is a concern.

Wallace was our 3rd WR last year, but he did not play the slot. When he came in, he played on the outside and either Hines or Tone moved inside. So Wallace is not adapting to a totally new position or anything. He'll be doing what he was doing last year, only doing it more often (and against better corners on a consistent basis).

Hines has back to back 1000 yard seasons. His 95 catches for 1167 yards was the second highest season total in his career behind the 112 catches for 1329 yards in 2002 he had in 2002. If he's healthy, he'll get another 1000 season like he has every season in which he was able to start for 16 games.

Randle El is coming off three consecutive seasons of 50 or more catches in Washington (he never had 50 catches once in his 4 seasons in Pittsburgh when he was much faster). Like Hines, El's game is about finding holes in coverage. Since they both have experience playing QB, they are able to think like a QB and find the open spots in the defense. This is more about savvy than speed.

The rookies are unknown, but you never know what you might unearth. At this point last year, no one was expecting all that much out of Mike Wallace, and he flourished. I think that our WR corps is well balanced with veteran savvy from Ward, Randle El, and Battle and youth talents like Wallace, Sanders, and Brown.

I realize I worded it wrong after I wrote it. Wallace has played on the outside with Holmes and Ward on the field. Wallace will not see a completely new position but will see better DB talent. He and not Ward will be who they concentrate on because he is a game changer. He will also see more double teams as they no longer have to focus on Holmes. And while fans might be optimistic...I think it's through BnG glasses. It's certainly a concern. It's not something we can't overcome but it has to be our biggest question mark going into the season.

Our o-line has been our biggest question mark for the last several years, and the loss of Willie Colon certainly does not help matters. I'm much more concerned about the line than the wideouts.

Captain Lemming
07-12-2010, 11:13 AM
I hope teams try to use a LB to cover Miller.

Far more likely the more high caliber receivers you have who the D may want to double team.
AGAIN, another reason why the "just throw more to Miller" thinking is flawed.

stlrz d
07-12-2010, 10:28 PM
[quote="stlrz d":20j68wsa]
I hope teams try to use a LB to cover Miller.

Far more likely the more high caliber receivers you have who the D may want to double team.
AGAIN, another reason why the "just throw more to Miller" thinking is flawed.[/quote:20j68wsa]

You should read all the posts regarding this, sir. :) Nobody is saying, "just throw to Miller." ;)

RuthlessBurgher
07-12-2010, 11:27 PM
[quote="Captain Lemming":2bxg05vt][quote="stlrz d":2bxg05vt]
I hope teams try to use a LB to cover Miller.

Far more likely the more high caliber receivers you have who the D may want to double team.
AGAIN, another reason why the "just throw more to Miller" thinking is flawed.[/quote:2bxg05vt]

You should read all the posts regarding this, sir. :) Nobody is saying, "just throw to Miller." ;)[/quote:2bxg05vt]

Just throw to Miller.

(whoops)

Dee Dub
07-13-2010, 05:29 PM
My major concern is James Harrison (Are we seeing the Jason Gildon situation repeated) and his only getting 2 sacks in the final 8 games. Yes he was held but so what. He gets paid to beat that and needs to figure out how.

What the????? Dude if Lawrence Taylor in his prime gets held....he aint gettin to the QB. Being held is being held.

Ovi...you are better than this. :roll:

cruzer8
07-13-2010, 05:45 PM
My major concern is James Harrison (Are we seeing the Jason Gildon situation repeated) and his only getting 2 sacks in the final 8 games. Yes he was held but so what. He gets paid to beat that and needs to figure out how.

What the????? Dude if Lawrence Taylor in his prime gets held....he aint gettin to the QB. Being held is being held.

Ovi...you are better than this. :roll:

It's no coincidence that when Harrison's numbers declined Woodley's increased.

Dee Dub
07-13-2010, 05:48 PM
My major concern is James Harrison (Are we seeing the Jason Gildon situation repeated) and his only getting 2 sacks in the final 8 games. Yes he was held but so what. He gets paid to beat that and needs to figure out how.

What the????? Dude if Lawrence Taylor in his prime gets held....he aint gettin to the QB. Being held is being held.

Ovi...you are better than this. :roll:

It's no coincidence that when Harrison's numbers declined Woodley's increased.[/quote

Yep...that's usually what happens when an offense focuses their attention on stopping one OLB.

I wouldnt trade Harrison for any LB in the NFL. He is solid in every category. What he does in coverage is remarkable and if he were allowed to simply go after the QB like Demarcus Ware or Shawn Merriman (in his prime), primarily do, he would have over 20 sacks a year.

Prowler
07-14-2010, 03:38 PM
First off, I hope I am wrong about the future of the Steelers but I believe our team is on the decline. I feel like our defense is aging really fast. We've had subpar draft classes under Tomin and his coaching hires have less then stellar body of works. These things scare me.

All is not lost though. I believe Mendenhall will challenge Chris Johnson and Adrian Peterson as the top RB's in the NFL. I expect Wallace to be a 1000 yard WR before too long.

And if the fanbase does not run Roethlisberger out of town we can have a dominate offense for years to come. Combine this with future draft picks like Maurice Pouncey and we will have a better OL.

The only snag up in this plan is if we continue to get poor game plans from Bruce Arians week in and week out. This guy should have been fired by Tomlin.

grotonsteel
07-14-2010, 08:04 PM
The only snag up in this plan is if we continue to get poor game plans from Bruce Arians week in and week out. This guy should have been fired by Tomlin.

I thought Arians did ok last season.

What about Dick Lebeau??? Last season i think it was one of the worst season for him. And if your scheme is entirely dependent on a DB then i think its time to change the scheme.

Mediocre QBs (Cassell, Gardowski, Cutler) looked like Dan Marino against Steelers D. If your CBs have to wait till game 16 for an INT in a pass happy league then something is wrong with the D. Steelers CB need to stop that 10 yard cushion. It was not working last season. I read somewhere Steelers gave 75 20 yards or more plays. One of the worst in league.I really hope it was because Smith and Troy were injured.We need Steelers D in top form from Game 1.