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View Full Version : Who do you want to see at QB in week 1? Dixon or Leftwich?



Ozey74
05-02-2010, 06:09 PM
I'd like to see Dixon.

Although he didn't win in his only start on the road in primetime at Baltimore, he certainly didn't lose the game for us. I'd like to see more of what he has as Big Ben sits.


:tt2

Lebsteel
05-02-2010, 06:10 PM
I'd like to see Dixon, but I can give you a better answer after I see both of them in training camp... :tt1 :tt1

Ozey74
05-02-2010, 06:15 PM
I'd like to see Dixon, but I can give you a better answer after I see both of them in training camp... :tt1 :tt1


I agree. If Dixon is awful in training camp and Leftwich is at least adequate, then my answer changes.

Speaking of traing camp, I wonder how the work among our QB's (especially with Ben) will be distributed?

SS Laser
05-02-2010, 06:19 PM
I'd like to see Dixon, but I can give you a better answer after I see both of them in training camp... :tt1 :tt1

Leb you are going to camp I take it? I am planing on going for the first time. Could you PM me some tips?

I would alo like to see Dixon at this point. I was always a Kordell fan for what he could do with his legs. And Dixon has the same skill set I think. I hope he is a better QB then Kordell.

hawaiiansteel
05-02-2010, 07:14 PM
the answer to this question all depends on which type of poster you are -


Steeler Fairy - i don't care, i just want the Steelers to lose without Ben. and yes, it will be Tomlin's fault.

Steeler Troll - doesn't really matter who the QB is, Steelers will lose all their games.

Steeler Nazi - all you other posters are wrong and your opinions are stupid. none of you guys have ever obviously played any organized sport at a high level, what gives you the right to question the Rooneys?

Steeler Cultist - whichever QB Tomlin and Arians chooses will be the right one and will lead the Black and Gold to another Super Bowl victory this season!

Steeler Jerry - you should of heard what Leftwich was saying when he was in Tampa Bay about Ben and about Dixon and Korkie being the best of "off the field" friends...

Steeler Lemming - have no backbone of their own so whoever Art Rooney thinks is the best QB obviously is.

Hawaiiansteel - i'll let you guys know after Week 4...

Shawn
05-02-2010, 07:34 PM
Who are you going to turn 4 games over to...possibly the season? I initially wanted Dixon...I think he has played well. But, he is very inexperienced. Leftwich has been there and done that. He played lights out for the Steelers...something like a 140 passer rating while here. It's his job to lose.

PSU_dropout43
05-02-2010, 07:53 PM
batch. :cry:

BURGH86STEEL
05-02-2010, 07:55 PM
Who are you going to turn 4 games over to...possibly the season? I initially wanted Dixon...I think he has played well. But, he is very inexperienced. Leftwich has been there and done that. He played lights out for the Steelers...something like a 140 passer rating while here. It's his job to lose.

I would like to see what Dixon can do. They might be able to get a 3rd or 4th round pick for him if he plays well enough.

I think we all want the player that gives the Steelers the best chance to win. At least they have some options at this point. I agree that it will be BL's job to lose.

hawaiiansteel
05-02-2010, 08:00 PM
Who are you going to turn 4 games over to...possibly the season? I initially wanted Dixon...I think he has played well. But, he is very inexperienced. Leftwich has been there and done that. He played lights out for the Steelers...something like a 140 passer rating while here. It's his job to lose.

I would like to see what Dixon can do. They might be able to get a 3rd or 4th round pick for him if he plays well enough.

I think we all want the player that gives the Steelers the best chance to win. At least they have some options at this point. I agree that it will be BL's job to lose.




or maybe we can start stockpiling 5th rounders for next year's draft... :roll:

Shawn
05-02-2010, 08:14 PM
Who are you going to turn 4 games over to...possibly the season? I initially wanted Dixon...I think he has played well. But, he is very inexperienced. Leftwich has been there and done that. He played lights out for the Steelers...something like a 140 passer rating while here. It's his job to lose.

I would like to see what Dixon can do. They might be able to get a 3rd or 4th round pick for him if he plays well enough.

I think we all want the player that gives the Steelers the best chance to win. At least they have some options at this point. I agree that it will be BL's job to lose.

I think we would all like to see what Dixon can do. With that said, Tomlin is going to approach this from a very conservative stand point. Your team leader and franchise QB is out. Do you replace him with a young inexperienced QB with a fairly high ceiling to develop him? Or, do you replace him with an experienced QB with a large arm and big game experience? I know who Tomlin will choose unless Leftwich just proves he no longer has it.

HeHateMe
05-02-2010, 09:14 PM
Ben is NOT our team leader. STOP THAT. Hines and Polamalu are. They exemplify professionalism to the highest degree and they perform on the field. I think Leftwich will start and should. Dixon is not ready. I think Lefty made Ben fans NERVOUS when he was here. Ben fans don't want to see him start and do well, it could mean bad things for Ben. If that happens, I dont rule out the fact that the Steeler brass trade Ben. After the suspension is lifted, his value will go up and we could make a killing and get rid of the cancer all at once. Ben fans will HATE this idea but STEELER fans will think it's smart.

proudpittsburgher
05-02-2010, 10:13 PM
If the Steelers liked what they saw out of dixon, he would have seen more playing time last season from a mere athletic standpoint, ala slash. Outside of the game where he HAD to play, he saw virtually zero playing time. It absolutely has to be leftwich unless something happens in training camp.

Sugar
05-02-2010, 10:19 PM
I'd like to see Dixon start- that will mean that he has shown something in camp over Lefty. Lefty is fine and all, but he's a known quantity. Known not to be good enough to even start for Tampa.

With a strong Defense and running game, either should be a sufficient place-holder until Ben gets back (fingers crossed).

Shawn
05-02-2010, 10:30 PM
I'd like to see Dixon start- that will mean that he has shown something in camp over Lefty. Lefty is fine and all, but he's a known quantity. Known not to be good enough to even start for Tampa.

With a strong Defense and running game, either should be a sufficient place-holder until Ben gets back (fingers crossed).

He's performed VERY well in our system. That has to count for something.

hawaiiansteel
05-03-2010, 01:55 AM
Will We be Mixin With Dixon?

By Harvey “Mr. Steeler” Aronson

Is Charlie Batch even in the discussion? By that meaning who fills in for Big Ben Roethlisberger until he returns from suspension. It appears that it boils down to either Byron Leftwich or Dennis Dixon. Batch is a serviceable option but I honestly believe he won’t stand a chance against the youth and mobility of Dixon or the cannon arm and heart and winning attitude of Leftwich. The coaching staff has a difficult decision to make given Dixon’s performance in a losing overtime effort against Baltimore last season. Looking back at Byron’s one game wearing Black and Gold against the Washington Redskins, he too was very impressive. But in Tampa last year he fell backwards big time. So who is the real Byron Leftwich? When he was wearing the black and teal of the Jacksonville Jaguars, he always played the Steelers tough. But he was run out of town there although in my opinion he got a bad rap. Many critics believe his slow delivery and slow feet make him not a very good qb. But I say, give him protection and a solid running game and the man can do damage. After all, he can wing it. But like in 2009, he now faces a quarterback competition against a young quarterback. Until he got hurt at the University of Oregon, Dennis Dixon was a hot commodity and a front-runner for the Heisman Trophy. Now it comes down to OTAs and this summer’s training camp to decide whom steps under center at Heinz Field in the season opener against the Atlanta Falcons. Hines Ward says it’s not a given that the veteran Leftwich wins the job:

“If he gets outside the pocket, he's more of a threat than anybody on our team. He's just as fast and explosive as a lot of defensive backs that probably wouldn't know how to attack him because they're not used to defending somebody like that. He does remind me of Kordell Stewart. You take a Vince Young, and you see the type of season he had toward the end of last year, and Dixon is really hitting all those molds. If he gets another opportunity, guys are going to compete for him. The interception (against Baltimore), the last-minute mistake, we can't fault him for that. He saw something he tried to take advantage of. Whoever they decide to be the starter, we'll move forward from there. He won over a lot of guys. You get named the starting quarterback the day before the game, going down to the lion's den in Baltimore - it's not an easy task for any quarterback. He held his own. We couldn't run certain plays because he didn't get all the proper reps he needed throughout the week - he only got 30 percent of the plays. That was the frustration with a lot of guys. Considering the circumstances, Dennis played his tail off. And he's getting better and better.'”

As for Dixon, he seems prepared.

“Seeing that was my first start, I wanted to put my team in the best situation. As things go along, yes, I want to go all out. I wouldn't say anyone is solidified as No. 1, No. 2 or No. 3. We're getting quality reps between all three of us and making the most of it.”

http://steelershotline.com/coverstory.html

StarSpangledSteeler
05-03-2010, 03:40 AM
Think about it...

With Big Ben out, we will probably be running the ball about 60-70% of the snaps. Other teams will know that and will be stacking the box, even run blitzing up the middle. Who will be the best QB to expose that?

The answer is Leftwich. Not only can he play-action pass (with a strength and accuracy), he also has experience reading blitzes. Dixon can scramble away from some of those blitzes but i wonder about his ability to diagnose and call audibles/check downs at the line of scrimmage. He did play well against a very good defense in Baltimore, but it was his inexperience that lost us that game, not his athleticism. The conservative choice in the veteran is the correct decision. If Leftwich performs poorly then you bring in the rookie.

HeHateMe
05-03-2010, 04:28 AM
If the Steelers liked what they saw out of dixon, he would have seen more playing time last season from a mere athletic standpoint, ala slash. Outside of the game where he HAD to play, he saw virtually zero playing time. It absolutely has to be leftwich unless something happens in training camp.
Arians is NOT Mike Mullarky. He doesnt have slash like plays in his playbook. THAT'S why we didnt see Dixon in that capacity.

HeHateMe
05-03-2010, 04:35 AM
Think about it...

With Big Ben out, we will probably be running the ball about 60-70% of the snaps. Other teams will know that and will be stacking the box, even run blitzing up the middle. Who will be the best QB to expose that?

The answer is Leftwich. Not only can he play-action pass (with a strength and accuracy), he also has experience reading blitzes. Dixon can scramble away from some of those blitzes but i wonder about his ability to diagnose and call audibles/check downs at the line of scrimmage. He did play well against a very good defense in Baltimore, but it was his inexperience that lost us that game, not his athleticism. The conservative choice in the veteran is the correct decision. If Leftwich performs poorly then you bring in the rookie.
Rookie? Dixon is going into his 3rd season. The Steelers WON'T be running it 60 or 70% of the time. They threw the ball almost 30 times in Dixion 1st start of his career. Arians is a pass 1st coordinator and he will revert to what he likes, regardless of what the Rooney's want. Playcalling is dictated by what the defense is doing. This should always be considered.

Pahn711
05-03-2010, 05:43 AM
I just can't help thinking that the safest choice is Leftwich, between his experience and arm strength. But the best thing for the team is probably starting Dixon, who has the respect of the locker room and is the obvious heir apparent if and when things go further south with Ben.

If we have learned anything about Leftwich over the past couple of years, all he cares about is being the starting quarterback. I mean, he left a super bowl winning team to play in Tampa. You really can't blame the guy, but whos to say if he starts and is highly successful he won't cause some drama in the locker room? Isn't that what happened in Jacksonville? (I don't entirely remember what happened there)

Sugar
05-03-2010, 07:21 AM
I'd like to see Dixon start- that will mean that he has shown something in camp over Lefty. Lefty is fine and all, but he's a known quantity. Known not to be good enough to even start for Tampa.

With a strong Defense and running game, either should be a sufficient place-holder until Ben gets back (fingers crossed).

He's performed VERY well in our system. That has to count for something.

Yeah, two years ago. Again, he might be a decent place-holder, but Dixon starting would mean we got something better. Either way, their just marking time until the return of the king! :tt1

flippy
05-03-2010, 07:41 AM
WHoever gives us the best chance at winning.

HeHateMe
05-03-2010, 09:15 AM
Think about it...

With Big Ben out, we will probably be running the ball about 60-70% of the snaps. Other teams will know that and will be stacking the box, even run blitzing up the middle. Who will be the best QB to expose that?

The answer is Leftwich. Not only can he play-action pass (with a strength and accuracy), he also has experience reading blitzes. Dixon can scramble away from some of those blitzes but i wonder about his ability to diagnose and call audibles/check downs at the line of scrimmage. He did play well against a very good defense in Baltimore, but it was his inexperience that lost us that game, not his athleticism. The conservative choice in the veteran is the correct decision. If Leftwich performs poorly then you bring in the rookie.
Rookie? Dixon is going into his 3rd season. The Steelers WON'T be running it 60 or 70% of the time. They threw the ball almost 30 times in Dixion 1st start of his career. Arians is a pass 1st coordinator and he will revert to what he likes, regardless of what the Rooney's want. Playcalling is dictated by what the defense is doing. This should always be considered.

No thats NOT what happened in Jacksonville. It had to do with him PLAYING through an injury (ankle) and Del Rio was pissed that he wasnt 100% Healthy like he said he was. He was in the doghouse for lying to Jack. Jack benched him and the WHOLE TEAM was not happy. So he is no locker room cancer. In fact, he was a LOCKER ROOM favorite for us in 08

HeHateMe
05-03-2010, 09:17 AM
I'd like to see Dixon start- that will mean that he has shown something in camp over Lefty. Lefty is fine and all, but he's a known quantity. Known not to be good enough to even start for Tampa.

With a strong Defense and running game, either should be a sufficient place-holder until Ben gets back (fingers crossed).

He's performed VERY well in our system. That has to count for something.

Yeah, two years ago. Again, he might be a decent place-holder, but Dixon starting would mean we got something better. Either way, their just marking time until the return of the king! :tt1

So you hope. I think they trade Ben at the time of his suspension being up. His value will be high and we can get great value for him.

Sugar
05-03-2010, 09:23 AM
I'd like to see Dixon start- that will mean that he has shown something in camp over Lefty. Lefty is fine and all, but he's a known quantity. Known not to be good enough to even start for Tampa.

With a strong Defense and running game, either should be a sufficient place-holder until Ben gets back (fingers crossed).

He's performed VERY well in our system. That has to count for something.

Yeah, two years ago. Again, he might be a decent place-holder, but Dixon starting would mean we got something better. Either way, their just marking time until the return of the king! :tt1

So you hope. I think they trade Ben at the time of his suspension being up. His value will be high and we can get great value for him.

Uh, OK, I don't know why you'd think that. You're right, I do hope that the FO isn't that stupid.

Northern_Blitz
05-03-2010, 10:18 AM
As some have said, I hope that Dixon shows that he can take the starting job while Ben is suspended. I'd like to see what Dixon has before his contract is up. This way, if he comes in and plays well we might be able to trade him for some return and keep Lefty as the backup.

SteelAbility
05-03-2010, 10:36 AM
The heart says Dixon. But the brain says Leftwich. There are elements of wanting both. Ultimately I want the Ws and I believe Lefty is the better chance. So, I guess I really want Lefty. :P

SteelBucks
05-03-2010, 10:58 AM
WHoever gives us the best chance at winning.

I agree. Have an open competition.....whoever performs better in camp and the preseason games gets the starting job. I'm keeping an open mind on this until Week 1.

NW Steeler
05-03-2010, 10:59 AM
Ben is NOT our team leader. STOP THAT. Hines and Polamalu are. They exemplify professionalism to the highest degree and they perform on the field. I think Leftwich will start and should. Dixon is not ready. I think Lefty made Ben fans NERVOUS when he was here. Ben fans don't want to see him start and do well, it could mean bad things for Ben. If that happens, I dont rule out the fact that the Steeler brass trade Ben. After the suspension is lifted, his value will go up and we could make a killing and get rid of the cancer all at once. Ben fans will HATE this idea but STEELER fans will think it's smart.

You are insane. I am a Steeler fan first but I also like Ben as a QB. But the talk of Lefty taking Ben's job permanently is plain crazy talk.

Sugar
05-03-2010, 11:54 AM
Ben is NOT our team leader. STOP THAT. Hines and Polamalu are. They exemplify professionalism to the highest degree and they perform on the field. I think Leftwich will start and should. Dixon is not ready. I think Lefty made Ben fans NERVOUS when he was here. Ben fans don't want to see him start and do well, it could mean bad things for Ben. If that happens, I dont rule out the fact that the Steeler brass trade Ben. After the suspension is lifted, his value will go up and we could make a killing and get rid of the cancer all at once. Ben fans will HATE this idea but STEELER fans will think it's smart.

You are insane. I am a Steeler fan first but I also like Ben as a QB. But the talk of Lefty taking Ben's job permanently is plain crazy talk.

It seems like some people just long for the glory days of Bubby Brister. :lol:

cruzer8
05-03-2010, 11:57 AM
Just put Steigerwald on ignore. Eventually he'll get tired of insanely ranting to only himself and he'll go away.

StarSpangledSteeler
05-03-2010, 12:06 PM
Think about it...

With Big Ben out, we will probably be running the ball about 60-70% of the snaps. Other teams will know that and will be stacking the box, even run blitzing up the middle. Who will be the best QB to expose that?

The answer is Leftwich. Not only can he play-action pass (with a strength and accuracy), he also has experience reading blitzes. Dixon can scramble away from some of those blitzes but i wonder about his ability to diagnose and call audibles/check downs at the line of scrimmage. He did play well against a very good defense in Baltimore, but it was his inexperience that lost us that game, not his athleticism. The conservative choice in the veteran is the correct decision. If Leftwich performs poorly then you bring in the rookie.
Rookie? Dixon is going into his 3rd season. The Steelers WON'T be running it 60 or 70% of the time. They threw the ball almost 30 times in Dixion 1st start of his career. Arians is a pass 1st coordinator and he will revert to what he likes, regardless of what the Rooney's want. Playcalling is dictated by what the defense is doing. This should always be considered.

1) Dixon has started 1 (one) game. While he may not be a 'rookie' don't try to imply he has any real game experience.

2) When the owner of your team says 'We need to run the ball more,' your team WILL run the ball more. I got a little carried away with the 70% thing but 60% is reasonable.

3) Baltimore was an exception because over the last ten years they defend the run better than just about any other team on earth, and they were stacking the box that day as well. Our only hope was to pass. Against any other team we would've run much much more.

HeHateMe
05-03-2010, 12:13 PM
Ben is NOT our team leader. STOP THAT. Hines and Polamalu are. They exemplify professionalism to the highest degree and they perform on the field. I think Leftwich will start and should. Dixon is not ready. I think Lefty made Ben fans NERVOUS when he was here. Ben fans don't want to see him start and do well, it could mean bad things for Ben. If that happens, I dont rule out the fact that the Steeler brass trade Ben. After the suspension is lifted, his value will go up and we could make a killing and get rid of the cancer all at once. Ben fans will HATE this idea but STEELER fans will think it's smart.

You are insane. I am a Steeler fan first but I also like Ben as a QB. But the talk of Lefty taking Ben's job permanently is plain crazy talk.
Pats fans said the SAME THING about Brady taking Bledsoes job. Rams fans said the same thing about Warner taking Trent Green's job. 9er fans said the same thing about Young taking Montanas job. Keep thinking that.

HeHateMe
05-03-2010, 12:16 PM
Think about it...

With Big Ben out, we will probably be running the ball about 60-70% of the snaps. Other teams will know that and will be stacking the box, even run blitzing up the middle. Who will be the best QB to expose that?

The answer is Leftwich. Not only can he play-action pass (with a strength and accuracy), he also has experience reading blitzes. Dixon can scramble away from some of those blitzes but i wonder about his ability to diagnose and call audibles/check downs at the line of scrimmage. He did play well against a very good defense in Baltimore, but it was his inexperience that lost us that game, not his athleticism. The conservative choice in the veteran is the correct decision. If Leftwich performs poorly then you bring in the rookie.
Rookie? Dixon is going into his 3rd season. The Steelers WON'T be running it 60 or 70% of the time. They threw the ball almost 30 times in Dixion 1st start of his career. Arians is a pass 1st coordinator and he will revert to what he likes, regardless of what the Rooney's want. Playcalling is dictated by what the defense is doing. This should always be considered.

1) Dixon has started 1 (one) game. While he may not be a 'rookie' don't try to imply he has any real game experience.

2) When the owner of your team says 'We need to run the ball more,' your team WILL run the ball more. I got a little carried away with the 70% thing but 60% is reasonable.

3) Baltimore was an exception because over the last ten years they defend the run better than just about any other team on earth, and they were stacking the box that day as well. Our only hope was to pass. Against any other team we would've run much much more.
The OWNER didnt say that. The OWNER is in Italy. You just said EXACTLY what I said in my previous post. I guess it sounded better coming from you. LOL

NW Steeler
05-03-2010, 12:20 PM
Ben is NOT our team leader. STOP THAT. Hines and Polamalu are. They exemplify professionalism to the highest degree and they perform on the field. I think Leftwich will start and should. Dixon is not ready. I think Lefty made Ben fans NERVOUS when he was here. Ben fans don't want to see him start and do well, it could mean bad things for Ben. If that happens, I dont rule out the fact that the Steeler brass trade Ben. After the suspension is lifted, his value will go up and we could make a killing and get rid of the cancer all at once. Ben fans will HATE this idea but STEELER fans will think it's smart.

You are insane. I am a Steeler fan first but I also like Ben as a QB. But the talk of Lefty taking Ben's job permanently is plain crazy talk.
Pats fans said the SAME THING about Brady taking Bledsoes job. Rams fans said the same thing about Warner taking Trent Green's job. 9er fans said the same thing about Young taking Montanas job. Keep thinking that.

Trent Green was a journeyman type QB. Montana was ancient. Brady was a unique situation. Ben is a 2-time winning QB. Without Ben we don't have #5 or #6. Lefty will not replace Ben. I will keep thinking that.

HeHateMe
05-03-2010, 12:27 PM
Montana was so ancient that he went to the Chiefs and knocked US out of the playofs. Not bad for someone who was "ancient" as you say. Montana was a FOUR TIME SB WINNING QB. It happened to a FOUR time winner but I guess it can't happen to a two time winner, LOL. Trent Green was the started and NOBODY thought that Warner would surpass him. In fact they thoght the season was over when he got hurt. Same with Favre when Majik got hurt. Same with Romo. I see you don't watch much football. Or are you just a hopeless Ben lover who thinks that the guy walks on water and can NEVER be replaced. We won SB 5 with Ben playing like crap. We were leading #6 17-7 with Ben doing nothing again. Again, Ben has ONE TD and THREE ints in BOTH SB's HOW you believe that he is the PRIMARY reason we have won is a mystery to me. But keep thinking that. I will be here to "check" you at the door. Ben is good, not great. Bradshaw was great. Ben is NO Bradshaw. But you can keep thinking that though.

HeHateMe
05-03-2010, 12:31 PM
Here is where he chronicles how "Ben got us to SB 40 with good games vs the Bengals, Colts and Broncos" Can guys think of any NEW material? Apparently not. SIGH

NW Steeler
05-03-2010, 12:31 PM
Yeah, you are right. I don't know anything about football. Thank God that there are people like you around to enlighten and teach the rest of us morons.

HeHateMe
05-03-2010, 12:33 PM
Never called anyone a moron. I don't get into namecalling etc But don't act like Ben can't be replaced, that is crazy.

NW Steeler
05-03-2010, 12:34 PM
BTW, I really think you are talking out of your azz. But I'll allow you to "show me the door" when Lefty takes Ben's job permanently and Ben is traded.

NW Steeler
05-03-2010, 12:37 PM
Never called anyone a moron. I don't get into namecalling etc But don't act like Ben can't be replaced, that is crazy.

You are correct. Anyone CAN be replaced. But Ben is not going to be replaced by any QB that is on our current roster. The only way that Ben is no longer the starting QB on this team is if it by his own hand, by off the field transgressions.

HeHateMe
05-03-2010, 12:39 PM
You just watch how well our offense runs in Bens absence. Of course there will be THREE Thousand excuses. There always is when it comes to Ben. If you think Leftwich can't outplay Ben then go back and look at the Browns game (remember that terrible int BEN threw in the redzone before he got rolled out of the stadium?) and Look at the Skins game (did you see the great audible Leftwich called at the line when he noticed the corner too far off of Tone? TD!) When have you seen Ben do that? Did you see Ben vs the Eagles? 8 sacks! Enter Leftwich and he burns Jim Johnsons blitz 3 times straight. Made him stop blitzing. Its called making a proper pre snap read and processing the information quickly and getting the ball out. Is he better than Ben? No. Just smarter and he has more savvy.

HeHateMe
05-03-2010, 12:40 PM
Never called anyone a moron. I don't get into namecalling etc But don't act like Ben can't be replaced, that is crazy.

You are correct. Anyone CAN be replaced. But Ben is not going to be replaced by any QB that is on our current roster. The only way that Ben is no longer the starting QB on this team is if it by his own hand, by off the field transgressions.
What are you basing that assessment on? Produce your source

NW Steeler
05-03-2010, 12:45 PM
A lot of QB's look great in spot duty. Lefty does get rid of the ball quickly and has a great arm. But some guys just have IT and some don't. There are some plays that Lefty can make that Ben refuses too, but there are HUGE plays that Ben can make that Lefty could only dream of. I think Leftwich would get killed behind our line, at least as it was configured last season. I have no problem with Leftwich starting until Ben comes back, and I think he will/should. But if Leftwich was to start for an entire season, I guarantee you would be reminded of why he was released by the Jags and would be wishing you still had Ben.

NW Steeler
05-03-2010, 12:46 PM
Never called anyone a moron. I don't get into namecalling etc But don't act like Ben can't be replaced, that is crazy.

You are correct. Anyone CAN be replaced. But Ben is not going to be replaced by any QB that is on our current roster. The only way that Ben is no longer the starting QB on this team is if it by his own hand, by off the field transgressions.
What are you basing that assessment on? Produce your source

WTF are you talking about? I'm basing it on my OPINION, just as you are.

HeHateMe
05-03-2010, 12:51 PM
A lot of QB's look great in spot duty. Lefty does get rid of the ball quickly and has a great arm. But some guys just have IT and some don't. There are some plays that Lefty can make that Ben refuses too, but there are HUGE plays that Ben can make that Lefty could only dream of. I think Leftwich would get killed behind our line, at least as it was configured last season. I have no problem with Leftwich starting until Ben comes back, and I think he will/should. But if Leftwich was to start for an entire season, I guarantee you would be reminded of why he was released by the Jags and would be wishing you still had Ben.
Spot duty? Did you see Leftwich at Jax vs us? He was 2-1 vs us and Ben. Ben had the better team and Byron STILL beat him. Next excuse? IF Leftwich would get killed behind our line then HOW COME he didnt in 08? Ben got sacked galore vs the Eagles. Leftwich came in and was sacked once when he tripeed over Hartwig. Ben was getting sacked galore vs the Skins, Leftwich came in and had NONE of the same problems. Why is that? Oh probably because he makes better reads and he is a better anticipatory passer than Ben. Ben got sacked FIFTY times last season and Dixon wasnt sacked ONE TIME vs the Ravens. Next excuse? Ben was sacked 46 times in 07 and Batch plays and throws THIRTY ONE times vs the Ravens and wasnt sacked ONE TIME. Next excuse? It's not the line, it is BEN. This is a fact. Leftwich was released by the Jags? Thanks for providing yet ANOTHER case of how a FRANCHISE Qb has been sent packing. Thx.

HeHateMe
05-03-2010, 12:53 PM
[quote=HeHateMe]Never called anyone a moron. I don't get into namecalling etc But don't act like Ben can't be replaced, that is crazy.

You are correct. Anyone CAN be replaced. But Ben is not going to be replaced by any QB that is on our current roster. The only way that Ben is no longer the starting QB on this team is if it by his own hand, by off the field transgressions.
What are you basing that assessment on? Produce your source

WTF are you talking about? I'm basing it on my OPINION, just as you are.[/quote:bm7hj3s9]
I'm not basing anything on OPINION. That would be YOU. I am giving you real GAME TIME situations and examples. That sir, is NOT opinion. It would fall into the category of FACT.

ANPSTEEL
05-03-2010, 12:56 PM
In respect to the original question: I would love to see Dixon show us that he can be the QB I think he can. That said- if Leftwich shows he is the better option- then that is who I want in the huddle.



You just watch how well our offense runs in Bens absence. Of course there will be THREE Thousand excuses. There always is when it comes to Ben. If you think Leftwich can't outplay Ben then go back and look at the Browns game (remember that terrible int BEN threw in the redzone before he got rolled out of the stadium?) and Look at the Skins game (did you see the great audible Leftwich called at the line when he noticed the corner too far off of Tone? TD!) When have you seen Ben do that? Did you see Ben vs the Eagles? 8 sacks! Enter Leftwich and he burns Jim Johnsons blitz 3 times straight. Made him stop blitzing. Its called making a proper pre snap read and processing the information quickly and getting the ball out. Is he better than Ben? No. Just smarter and he has more savvy.


In respect to this comment- HHM is making a very valid point.

Ben relies entirely too much upon his physical skills, and not enough on the play called or the talent of his receivers.

Whether a conscious decision or a lack of ability- clearly Ben does not make plays based on pre-snap reads. Instead, he relies upon his ability to break down the coverage by scrambling and forcing the secondary to make commitments.

It has been rumored that Ken Andersen retired, in part, due to the frustration of working with a QB with "one of a kind" talent and a "dime store" brain.

HeHateMe
05-03-2010, 12:59 PM
In respect to the original question: I would love to see Dixon show us that he can be the QB I think he can. That said- if Leftwich shows he is the better option- then that is who I want in the huddle.



You just watch how well our offense runs in Bens absence. Of course there will be THREE Thousand excuses. There always is when it comes to Ben. If you think Leftwich can't outplay Ben then go back and look at the Browns game (remember that terrible int BEN threw in the redzone before he got rolled out of the stadium?) and Look at the Skins game (did you see the great audible Leftwich called at the line when he noticed the corner too far off of Tone? TD!) When have you seen Ben do that? Did you see Ben vs the Eagles? 8 sacks! Enter Leftwich and he burns Jim Johnsons blitz 3 times straight. Made him stop blitzing. Its called making a proper pre snap read and processing the information quickly and getting the ball out. Is he better than Ben? No. Just smarter and he has more savvy.


In respect to this comment- HHM is making a very valid point.

Ben relies entirely too much upon his physical skills, and not enough on the play called or the talent of his receivers.

Whether a conscious decision or a lack of ability- clearly Ben does not make plays based on pre-snap reads. Instead, he relies upon his ability to break down the coverage by scrambling and forcing the secondary to make commitments.

It has been rumored that Ken Andersen retired, in part, due to the frustration of working with a QB with "one of a kind" talent and a "dime store" brain.
Agree wholeheartedly. Whiz said the same things about Ben. Ben is good because he is on the Steelers. If he is on a bad team he is Jake Plummer.

ikestops85
05-03-2010, 01:05 PM
Montana was so ancient that he went to the Chiefs and knocked US out of the playofs. Not bad for someone who was "ancient" as you say. Montana was a FOUR TIME SB WINNING QB. It happened to a FOUR time winner but I guess it can't happen to a two time winner, LOL. Trent Green was the started and NOBODY thought that Warner would surpass him. In fact they thoght the season was over when he got hurt. Same with Favre when Majik got hurt. Same with Romo. I see you don't watch much football. Or are you just a hopeless Ben lover who thinks that the guy walks on water and can NEVER be replaced. We won SB 5 with Ben playing like crap. We were leading #6 17-7 with Ben doing nothing again. Again, Ben has ONE TD and THREE ints in BOTH SB's HOW you believe that he is the PRIMARY reason we have won is a mystery to me. But keep thinking that. I will be here to "check" you at the door. Ben is good, not great. Bradshaw was great. Ben is NO Bradshaw. But you can keep thinking that though.

So what do Young, Brady, Warner, Favre, and Romo (although I don't see how he fits into the discussion) have in common. The answer is nobody knew how they would play in the NFL. That is not true with Leftwich. He is a known quantity and he has never been described as great. Sometime good but mostly meh. There is noway he takes over for Ben. You would have a better shot at choosing Dixon. At least he doesn't have a body of work to criticize. Of course when the Ravens switched to a zone Dixon was awfully confused and threw the interception that cost us the game. Just sayin' 8)

ANPSTEEL
05-03-2010, 01:08 PM
... Of course when the Ravens switched to a zone Dixon was awfully confused and threw the interception that cost us the game.

I've always felt that Dixon has all the physical skills, and ultimately his success on the field will come down to his ability to read defenses.

ANPSTEEL
05-03-2010, 01:12 PM
In respect to the original question: I would love to see Dixon show us that he can be the QB I think he can. That said- if Leftwich shows he is the better option- then that is who I want in the huddle.



You just watch how well our offense runs in Bens absence. Of course there will be THREE Thousand excuses. There always is when it comes to Ben. If you think Leftwich can't outplay Ben then go back and look at the Browns game (remember that terrible int BEN threw in the redzone before he got rolled out of the stadium?) and Look at the Skins game (did you see the great audible Leftwich called at the line when he noticed the corner too far off of Tone? TD!) When have you seen Ben do that? Did you see Ben vs the Eagles? 8 sacks! Enter Leftwich and he burns Jim Johnsons blitz 3 times straight. Made him stop blitzing. Its called making a proper pre snap read and processing the information quickly and getting the ball out. Is he better than Ben? No. Just smarter and he has more savvy.


In respect to this comment- HHM is making a very valid point.

Ben relies entirely too much upon his physical skills, and not enough on the play called or the talent of his receivers.

Whether a conscious decision or a lack of ability- clearly Ben does not make plays based on pre-snap reads. Instead, he relies upon his ability to break down the coverage by scrambling and forcing the secondary to make commitments.

It has been rumored that Ken Andersen retired, in part, due to the frustration of working with a QB with "one of a kind" talent and a "dime store" brain.
Agree wholeheartedly. Whiz said the same things about Ben. Ben is good because he is on the Steelers. If he is on a bad team he is Jake Plummer.

Not a terrible analogy, but-

Ben is bigger- and thus shed's defenders that would result in a sack on Plummer.

Also, and this is critical, Ben has a much stronger arm, so he can get away with throwing the ball across the field after he has scrambled to the sideline- without the certain interception that would result from the same pass being thrown by Jake Plummer.

cruzer8
05-03-2010, 01:15 PM
Please stop feeding the troll.

:nono

Thank you.

cruzer8
05-03-2010, 01:19 PM
In respect to the original question: I would love to see Dixon show us that he can be the QB I think he can. That said- if Leftwich shows he is the better option- then that is who I want in the huddle.



You just watch how well our offense runs in Bens absence. Of course there will be THREE Thousand excuses. There always is when it comes to Ben. If you think Leftwich can't outplay Ben then go back and look at the Browns game (remember that terrible int BEN threw in the redzone before he got rolled out of the stadium?) and Look at the Skins game (did you see the great audible Leftwich called at the line when he noticed the corner too far off of Tone? TD!) When have you seen Ben do that? Did you see Ben vs the Eagles? 8 sacks! Enter Leftwich and he burns Jim Johnsons blitz 3 times straight. Made him stop blitzing. Its called making a proper pre snap read and processing the information quickly and getting the ball out. Is he better than Ben? No. Just smarter and he has more savvy.


In respect to this comment- HHM is making a very valid point.

Ben relies entirely too much upon his physical skills, and not enough on the play called or the talent of his receivers.

Whether a conscious decision or a lack of ability- clearly Ben does not make plays based on pre-snap reads. Instead, he relies upon his ability to break down the coverage by scrambling and forcing the secondary to make commitments.

It has been rumored that Ken Andersen retired, in part, due to the frustration of working with a QB with "one of a kind" talent and a "dime store" brain.

Sorry, but that is a bogus assessment from afar.

And another thing to keep in mind is that Arians himself said that they changed the play calling when Ben was not in the game.

PS - Just as a side note, giving a troll any kind of credibility is a sure way to keep them around. Just sayin'.

NW Steeler
05-03-2010, 01:26 PM
Please stop feeding the troll.

:nono

Thank you.

Thanks for the slap. I'm done. Further discussion would be the same as...
:HeadBanger :HeadBanger :HeadBanger :HeadBanger :HeadBanger :HeadBanger :HeadBanger :HeadBanger :HeadBanger :HeadBanger :HeadBanger :HeadBanger :HeadBanger :HeadBanger :HeadBanger :HeadBanger :HeadBanger :HeadBanger

ANPSTEEL
05-03-2010, 01:33 PM
In respect to the original question: I would love to see Dixon show us that he can be the QB I think he can. That said- if Leftwich shows he is the better option- then that is who I want in the huddle.



You just watch how well our offense runs in Bens absence. Of course there will be THREE Thousand excuses. There always is when it comes to Ben. If you think Leftwich can't outplay Ben then go back and look at the Browns game (remember that terrible int BEN threw in the redzone before he got rolled out of the stadium?) and Look at the Skins game (did you see the great audible Leftwich called at the line when he noticed the corner too far off of Tone? TD!) When have you seen Ben do that? Did you see Ben vs the Eagles? 8 sacks! Enter Leftwich and he burns Jim Johnsons blitz 3 times straight. Made him stop blitzing. Its called making a proper pre snap read and processing the information quickly and getting the ball out. Is he better than Ben? No. Just smarter and he has more savvy.


In respect to this comment- HHM is making a very valid point.

Ben relies entirely too much upon his physical skills, and not enough on the play called or the talent of his receivers.

Whether a conscious decision or a lack of ability- clearly Ben does not make plays based on pre-snap reads. Instead, he relies upon his ability to break down the coverage by scrambling and forcing the secondary to make commitments.

It has been rumored that Ken Andersen retired, in part, due to the frustration of working with a QB with "one of a kind" talent and a "dime store" brain.

Sorry, but that is a bogus assessment from afar.

And another thing to keep in mind is that Arians himself said that they changed the play calling when Ben was not in the game.

PS - Just as a side note, giving a troll any kind of credibility is a sure way to keep them around. Just sayin'.

I don't have access to the play book, or the radio signal that goes to Ben's helmet, but I can certainly identify when the QB ignores a hot read (again- whether by intent or ignorance I can not tell).

Here is my "book" on how to play Ben, given my limited access to the film, playbook and such.

A. Dont blitz him. Dog, stunt, twist..etc... you are much better off faking pressure and dropping into coverage.

B. If you do blitz, bring the pressure up the middle with an overload. This limits his vision, and forces him to make a decision much faster.

C. Run zone coverage with two deep safeties. Back peddle facing the LOS & QB for as long as possible. DO NOT Bite on the initial "pump". Ben almost never throws the ball without at least one hitch.


Lastly, in respect to "feeding the trolls"-

Because someone has an opinion that does not coincide with yours does not make them a troll.

If everyone on this board had the exact opinions on each matter- it would be a very boring board.

I have no problem with people who want to be contrarian, so long as they can support their ideas intelligently.

cruzer8
05-03-2010, 01:51 PM
In respect to the original question: I would love to see Dixon show us that he can be the QB I think he can. That said- if Leftwich shows he is the better option- then that is who I want in the huddle.



You just watch how well our offense runs in Bens absence. Of course there will be THREE Thousand excuses. There always is when it comes to Ben. If you think Leftwich can't outplay Ben then go back and look at the Browns game (remember that terrible int BEN threw in the redzone before he got rolled out of the stadium?) and Look at the Skins game (did you see the great audible Leftwich called at the line when he noticed the corner too far off of Tone? TD!) When have you seen Ben do that? Did you see Ben vs the Eagles? 8 sacks! Enter Leftwich and he burns Jim Johnsons blitz 3 times straight. Made him stop blitzing. Its called making a proper pre snap read and processing the information quickly and getting the ball out. Is he better than Ben? No. Just smarter and he has more savvy.


In respect to this comment- HHM is making a very valid point.

Ben relies entirely too much upon his physical skills, and not enough on the play called or the talent of his receivers.

Whether a conscious decision or a lack of ability- clearly Ben does not make plays based on pre-snap reads. Instead, he relies upon his ability to break down the coverage by scrambling and forcing the secondary to make commitments.

It has been rumored that Ken Andersen retired, in part, due to the frustration of working with a QB with "one of a kind" talent and a "dime store" brain.

Sorry, but that is a bogus assessment from afar.

And another thing to keep in mind is that Arians himself said that they changed the play calling when Ben was not in the game.

PS - Just as a side note, giving a troll any kind of credibility is a sure way to keep them around. Just sayin'.

I don't have access to the play book, or the radio signal that goes to Ben's helmet, but I can certainly identify when the QB ignores a hot read (again- whether by intent or ignorance I can not tell).

Here is my "book" on how to play Ben, given my limited access to the film, playbook and such.

A. Dont blitz him. Dog, stunt, twist..etc... you are much better off faking pressure and dropping into coverage.

B. If you do blitz, bring the pressure up the middle with an overload. This limits his vision, and forces him to make a decision much faster.

C. Run zone coverage with two deep safeties. Back peddle facing the LOS & QB for as long as possible. DO NOT Bite on the initial "pump". Ben almost never throws the ball without at least one hitch.


Lastly, in respect to "feeding the trolls"-

Because someone has an opinion that does not coincide with yours does not make them a troll.

If everyone on this board had the exact opinions on each matter- it would be a very boring board.

I have no problem with people who want to be contrarian, so long as they can support their ideas intelligently.

Defensive coordinators in the NFL disagree with you. They bring pressure from the outside because Ben is so dangerous outside the pocket. Unless teams sell out to come at him. Then they bring pressure up the middle as well as from the outside.

As for the hot read, you're not seeing things from behind the QB. One of my favorite camera angles is the one behind the QB. I love it when they show things that people just can't see from the side angle. Guys look wide open from the side, but then you see the QB's view and all of a sudden there's nothing but the smallest window, if that.

Opposing viewpoints is one thing. Nothing wrong with that. Someone coming on here with a clear bias and hatred for a player, and making post after post after post about that player, all while twisting facts as "support" is not an opposing viewpoint. That is a troll.

This is by far one of the best Steelers forums on the net. There are a rational bunch of guys here. But allowing one person to go on and on with a baseless rant is a sure way to swirl this place down the drain quickly.

SS Laser
05-03-2010, 02:18 PM
Lastly, in respect to "feeding the trolls"-

Because someone has an opinion that does not coincide with yours does not make them a troll.

If everyone on this board had the exact opinions on each matter- it would be a very boring board.

I have no problem with people who want to be contrarian, so long as they can support their ideas intelligently.[/quote]

Defensive coordinators in the NFL disagree with you. They bring pressure from the outside because Ben is so dangerous outside the pocket. Unless teams sell out to come at him. Then they bring pressure up the middle as well as from the outside.

As for the hot read, you're not seeing things from behind the QB. One of my favorite camera angles is the one behind the QB. I love it when they show things that people just can't see from the side angle. Guys look wide open from the side, but then you see the QB's view and all of a sudden there's nothing but the smallest window, if that.

Opposing viewpoints is one thing. Nothing wrong with that. Someone coming on here with a clear bias and hatred for a player, and making post after post after post about that player, all while twisting facts as "support" is not an opposing viewpoint. That is a troll.

This is by far one of the best Steelers forums on the net. There are a rational bunch of guys here. But allowing one person to go on and on with a baseless rant is a sure way to swirl this place down the drain quickly.[/quote]

:Agree

This hehatesben guy is a :Hater
He says I value Ben over tha steelers. Well untill Ben does not have BLACK AND GOLD on every sunday then yes I support him as a steeler!

ANPSTEEL
05-03-2010, 02:35 PM
...
Defensive coordinators in the NFL disagree with you. They bring pressure from the outside because Ben is so dangerous outside the pocket. Unless teams sell out to come at him. Then they bring pressure up the middle as well as from the outside.
...

reference:

2008 v. philly, nyg, indy-

2009 v. oak, clev 2nd game

each did a version of what I outlined.

In general, the only way you can successfully blitz Ben from the outside is if the rush guys are big and fast.

SteelAbility
05-03-2010, 02:38 PM
If <hypothetical situation> then <conclusion which can't be verified>

=

PURE SPECULATION.

:roll:

ANPSTEEL
05-03-2010, 02:41 PM
If <hypothetical situation> then <conclusion which can't be verified>

=

PURE SPECULATION.

:roll:

:lol: :lol:

if that is directed at me- fair enough.

I said as much in my posts- that these were my thoughts based upon limited information etc...

SteelAbility
05-03-2010, 02:47 PM
If <hypothetical situation> then <conclusion which can't be verified>

=

PURE SPECULATION.

:roll:

:lol: :lol:

if that is directed at me- fair enough.

I said as much in my posts- that these were my thoughts based upon limited information etc...

It was actually directed at the suspected troll and the inane comment that if Ben is on a bad team he's just a Jake Plummer. It's that argumentation style puts a magnifying glass on the negatives and a telescope on the positives and then proceeds to try to convince you that the surreal landscape just created is actual reality.

HeHateMe
05-03-2010, 04:05 PM
Montana was so ancient that he went to the Chiefs and knocked US out of the playofs. Not bad for someone who was "ancient" as you say. Montana was a FOUR TIME SB WINNING QB. It happened to a FOUR time winner but I guess it can't happen to a two time winner, LOL. Trent Green was the started and NOBODY thought that Warner would surpass him. In fact they thoght the season was over when he got hurt. Same with Favre when Majik got hurt. Same with Romo. I see you don't watch much football. Or are you just a hopeless Ben lover who thinks that the guy walks on water and can NEVER be replaced. We won SB 5 with Ben playing like crap. We were leading #6 17-7 with Ben doing nothing again. Again, Ben has ONE TD and THREE ints in BOTH SB's HOW you believe that he is the PRIMARY reason we have won is a mystery to me. But keep thinking that. I will be here to "check" you at the door. Ben is good, not great. Bradshaw was great. Ben is NO Bradshaw. But you can keep thinking that though.
So what do Young, Brady, Warner, Favre, and Romo (although I don't see how he fits into the discussion) have in common. The answer is nobody knew how they would play in the NFL. That is not true with Leftwich. He is a known quantity and he has never been described as great. Sometime good but mostly meh. There is noway he takes over for Ben. You would have a better shot at choosing Dixon. At least he doesn't have a body of work to criticize. Of course when the Ravens switched to a zone Dixon was awfully confused and threw the interception that cost us the game. Just sayin' 8)
What do you mean NOBODY thought they would play in the league? Werent they drafted? Romo is in the discussion because NOBODY thought he would take Bledsoes job. Leftwich is KNOWN to be a STARTING QB IN THE NFL. Started for the Jags, Falcons and Bucs. All lesser teams than the Steelers. Played for us in the SAME games that Ben played in and he OUTPLAYED Ben in EVERY game they both played in.
WHO says Ben is great? WHO? Biased Steeler fans? The guy is a known rapist (allegedly) If Ben has been on the sorry teams that Leftwich was on he would suffer the same fate. It is NO COINCIDENCE that Ben didnt garner much in terms of trade value. Could it be that the league realizes that he is what he is? An undisciplined QB on the field and off of it. A QB who plays Lethargic, doesnt make smart reads but has a strong defense that allows him 4 extra chances a game to FINALLY get it right. How come Ben has ONE Pro Bowl season? He was even an alternate in his BEST season (last year). Nobody respects Ben as a GREAT qb. Is he on a great team? Yes. But great individually? PFFFT. Ben on the Lions/Bucs/ or any weak team and you will see him sacked 75 times a seasonwith 20 plus picks a season. Hell he had TWENTY THREE turnovers and we won the bowl! I guess it was our lines fault that we were 23rd in the Red Zone last season huh? Its an example of a QB who is SLOW to process the information. See Chiefs game. Hasnt that happened alot in Ben's career?

HeHateMe
05-03-2010, 04:09 PM
In respect to the original question: I would love to see Dixon show us that he can be the QB I think he can. That said- if Leftwich shows he is the better option- then that is who I want in the huddle.



You just watch how well our offense runs in Bens absence. Of course there will be THREE Thousand excuses. There always is when it comes to Ben. If you think Leftwich can't outplay Ben then go back and look at the Browns game (remember that terrible int BEN threw in the redzone before he got rolled out of the stadium?) and Look at the Skins game (did you see the great audible Leftwich called at the line when he noticed the corner too far off of Tone? TD!) When have you seen Ben do that? Did you see Ben vs the Eagles? 8 sacks! Enter Leftwich and he burns Jim Johnsons blitz 3 times straight. Made him stop blitzing. Its called making a proper pre snap read and processing the information quickly and getting the ball out. Is he better than Ben? No. Just smarter and he has more savvy.


In respect to this comment- HHM is making a very valid point.

Ben relies entirely too much upon his physical skills, and not enough on the play called or the talent of his receivers.

Whether a conscious decision or a lack of ability- clearly Ben does not make plays based on pre-snap reads. Instead, he relies upon his ability to break down the coverage by scrambling and forcing the secondary to make commitments.

It has been rumored that Ken Andersen retired, in part, due to the frustration of working with a QB with "one of a kind" talent and a "dime store" brain.
Agree wholeheartedly. Whiz said the same things about Ben. Ben is good because he is on the Steelers. If he is on a bad team he is Jake Plummer.

Not a terrible analogy, but-

Ben is bigger- and thus shed's defenders that would result in a sack on Plummer.

Also, and this is critical, Ben has a much stronger arm, so he can get away with throwing the ball across the field after he has scrambled to the sideline- without the certain interception that would result from the same pass being thrown by Jake Plummer.

How long will Ben do that? Ben will be in his 7th season. Whereas Ben shrugs Jake runs away (more mobile). I agree with the "Ben has a stronger arm". Jake is smarter. They are the same guy just with different intangibles.

HeHateMe
05-03-2010, 04:10 PM
Please stop feeding the troll.

:nono

Thank you.
If I'm a Troll then WHY do I have more Steeler Knowledge than you. ANYTIME you want to test the Steeler knowledge just say they word and watch the Troll BURY YOU.

HeHateMe
05-03-2010, 04:13 PM
In respect to the original question: I would love to see Dixon show us that he can be the QB I think he can. That said- if Leftwich shows he is the better option- then that is who I want in the huddle.



You just watch how well our offense runs in Bens absence. Of course there will be THREE Thousand excuses. There always is when it comes to Ben. If you think Leftwich can't outplay Ben then go back and look at the Browns game (remember that terrible int BEN threw in the redzone before he got rolled out of the stadium?) and Look at the Skins game (did you see the great audible Leftwich called at the line when he noticed the corner too far off of Tone? TD!) When have you seen Ben do that? Did you see Ben vs the Eagles? 8 sacks! Enter Leftwich and he burns Jim Johnsons blitz 3 times straight. Made him stop blitzing. Its called making a proper pre snap read and processing the information quickly and getting the ball out. Is he better than Ben? No. Just smarter and he has more savvy.


In respect to this comment- HHM is making a very valid point.

Ben relies entirely too much upon his physical skills, and not enough on the play called or the talent of his receivers.

Whether a conscious decision or a lack of ability- clearly Ben does not make plays based on pre-snap reads. Instead, he relies upon his ability to break down the coverage by scrambling and forcing the secondary to make commitments.

It has been rumored that Ken Andersen retired, in part, due to the frustration of working with a QB with "one of a kind" talent and a "dime store" brain.

Sorry, but that is a bogus assessment from afar.

And another thing to keep in mind is that Arians himself said that they changed the play calling when Ben was not in the game.

PS - Just as a side note, giving a troll any kind of credibility is a sure way to keep them around. Just sayin'.
I'M GOING NOWHERE. GET USED TO IT. I BELIEVE YOU ARE THE TROLL.
What probative knowledge are YOU bringing to the table? All you are doing is lying. SHOW ME where Arians said "they changed the playcalling" when Ben was not in the game.
I'll be waiting. TROLL

HeHateMe
05-03-2010, 04:15 PM
Please stop feeding the troll.

:nono

Thank you.

Thanks for the slap. I'm done. Further discussion would be the same as...
:HeadBanger :HeadBanger :HeadBanger :HeadBanger :HeadBanger :HeadBanger :HeadBanger :HeadBanger :HeadBanger :HeadBanger :HeadBanger :HeadBanger :HeadBanger :HeadBanger :HeadBanger :HeadBanger :HeadBanger :HeadBanger
TRANSLATION- I CAN'T COME UP WITH ANY REFUTATIONS FOR THIS GUY. SO I WILL TAKE THE EASY
WAY OUT AND ATTRIBUTE MY SILENCE TO "NOT WANTING TO FEED THE TROLL"
LOL
CLASSIC

HeHateMe
05-03-2010, 04:18 PM
In respect to the original question: I would love to see Dixon show us that he can be the QB I think he can. That said- if Leftwich shows he is the better option- then that is who I want in the huddle.



You just watch how well our offense runs in Bens absence. Of course there will be THREE Thousand excuses. There always is when it comes to Ben. If you think Leftwich can't outplay Ben then go back and look at the Browns game (remember that terrible int BEN threw in the redzone before he got rolled out of the stadium?) and Look at the Skins game (did you see the great audible Leftwich called at the line when he noticed the corner too far off of Tone? TD!) When have you seen Ben do that? Did you see Ben vs the Eagles? 8 sacks! Enter Leftwich and he burns Jim Johnsons blitz 3 times straight. Made him stop blitzing. Its called making a proper pre snap read and processing the information quickly and getting the ball out. Is he better than Ben? No. Just smarter and he has more savvy.


In respect to this comment- HHM is making a very valid point.

Ben relies entirely too much upon his physical skills, and not enough on the play called or the talent of his receivers.

Whether a conscious decision or a lack of ability- clearly Ben does not make plays based on pre-snap reads. Instead, he relies upon his ability to break down the coverage by scrambling and forcing the secondary to make commitments.

It has been rumored that Ken Andersen retired, in part, due to the frustration of working with a QB with "one of a kind" talent and a "dime store" brain.

Sorry, but that is a bogus assessment from afar.

And another thing to keep in mind is that Arians himself said that they changed the play calling when Ben was not in the game.

PS - Just as a side note, giving a troll any kind of credibility is a sure way to keep them around. Just sayin'.

I don't have access to the play book, or the radio signal that goes to Ben's helmet, but I can certainly identify when the QB ignores a hot read (again- whether by intent or ignorance I can not tell).

Here is my "book" on how to play Ben, given my limited access to the film, playbook and such.

A. Dont blitz him. Dog, stunt, twist..etc... you are much better off faking pressure and dropping into coverage.

B. If you do blitz, bring the pressure up the middle with an overload. This limits his vision, and forces him to make a decision much faster.

C. Run zone coverage with two deep safeties. Back peddle facing the LOS & QB for as long as possible. DO NOT Bite on the initial "pump". Ben almost never throws the ball without at least one hitch.


Lastly, in respect to "feeding the trolls"-

Because someone has an opinion that does not coincide with yours does not make them a troll.

If everyone on this board had the exact opinions on each matter- it would be a very boring board.

I have no problem with people who want to be contrarian, so long as they can support their ideas intelligently.
GREAT POST And this is EXACTLY what the Better teams do to Ben and that is why he struggles. Bellicheat wrote the book on how to stop Ben. Ben eats a man to man to man alive. The zone you described (Cover 2 man) gives him FITS. Especially in the redzone.

HeHateMe
05-03-2010, 04:23 PM
In respect to the original question: I would love to see Dixon show us that he can be the QB I think he can. That said- if Leftwich shows he is the better option- then that is who I want in the huddle.



You just watch how well our offense runs in Bens absence. Of course there will be THREE Thousand excuses. There always is when it comes to Ben. If you think Leftwich can't outplay Ben then go back and look at the Browns game (remember that terrible int BEN threw in the redzone before he got rolled out of the stadium?) and Look at the Skins game (did you see the great audible Leftwich called at the line when he noticed the corner too far off of Tone? TD!) When have you seen Ben do that? Did you see Ben vs the Eagles? 8 sacks! Enter Leftwich and he burns Jim Johnsons blitz 3 times straight. Made him stop blitzing. Its called making a proper pre snap read and processing the information quickly and getting the ball out. Is he better than Ben? No. Just smarter and he has more savvy.


In respect to this comment- HHM is making a very valid point.

Ben relies entirely too much upon his physical skills, and not enough on the play called or the talent of his receivers.

Whether a conscious decision or a lack of ability- clearly Ben does not make plays based on pre-snap reads. Instead, he relies upon his ability to break down the coverage by scrambling and forcing the secondary to make commitments.

It has been rumored that Ken Andersen retired, in part, due to the frustration of working with a QB with "one of a kind" talent and a "dime store" brain.

Sorry, but that is a bogus assessment from afar.

And another thing to keep in mind is that Arians himself said that they changed the play calling when Ben was not in the game.

PS - Just as a side note, giving a troll any kind of credibility is a sure way to keep them around. Just sayin'.

I don't have access to the play book, or the radio signal that goes to Ben's helmet, but I can certainly identify when the QB ignores a hot read (again- whether by intent or ignorance I can not tell).

Here is my "book" on how to play Ben, given my limited access to the film, playbook and such.

A. Dont blitz him. Dog, stunt, twist..etc... you are much better off faking pressure and dropping into coverage.

B. If you do blitz, bring the pressure up the middle with an overload. This limits his vision, and forces him to make a decision much faster.

C. Run zone coverage with two deep safeties. Back peddle facing the LOS & QB for as long as possible. DO NOT Bite on the initial "pump". Ben almost never throws the ball without at least one hitch.


Lastly, in respect to "feeding the trolls"-

Because someone has an opinion that does not coincide with yours does not make them a troll.

If everyone on this board had the exact opinions on each matter- it would be a very boring board.

I have no problem with people who want to be contrarian, so long as they can support their ideas intelligently.

Defensive coordinators in the NFL disagree with you. They bring pressure from the outside because Ben is so dangerous outside the pocket. Unless teams sell out to come at him. Then they bring pressure up the middle as well as from the outside.

As for the hot read, you're not seeing things from behind the QB. One of my favorite camera angles is the one behind the QB. I love it when they show things that people just can't see from the side angle. Guys look wide open from the side, but then you see the QB's view and all of a sudden there's nothing but the smallest window, if that.

Opposing viewpoints is one thing. Nothing wrong with that. Someone coming on here with a clear bias and hatred for a player, and making post after post after post about that player, all while twisting facts as "support" is not an opposing viewpoint. That is a troll.

This is by far one of the best Steelers forums on the net. There are a rational bunch of guys here. But allowing one person to go on and on with a baseless rant is a sure way to swirl this place down the drain quickly.
I dont have a HATRED for Ben. I just dont think he is ALL THAT. I think he is good but not GREAT. I think he DISGRACED THE TEAM I LOVE and I still hold him accountable for the bad press the Steelers are getting. FORGIVE me if I put the STEELERS over ANY players. WHAT facts did I twist? I have watched EVERY game Ben has played in. EVERY and I have posted the PROOF of that. If I want to post ONLY about Ben, then that is my business if you dont like it then don't read. WOMEN whine, Men strap it on and get ready for combat. Either strap it on or CURTSEY and stop the collateral attacks.

HeHateMe
05-03-2010, 04:26 PM
...
Defensive coordinators in the NFL disagree with you. They bring pressure from the outside because Ben is so dangerous outside the pocket. Unless teams sell out to come at him. Then they bring pressure up the middle as well as from the outside.
...

reference:

2008 v. philly, nyg, indy-

2009 v. oak, clev 2nd game

each did a version of what I outlined.

In general, the only way you can successfully blitz Ben from the outside is if the rush guys are big and fast.
You are correct and the Bengals did as well. TWICE.

ANPSTEEL
05-03-2010, 04:28 PM
...
GREAT POST And this is EXACTLY what the Better teams do to Ben and that is why he struggles. Bellicheat wrote the book on how to stop Ben. Ben eats a man to man to man alive. The zone you described (Cover 2 man) gives him FITS. Especially in the redzone.


Yep- I was going to mention Belichick but didn't feel like setting off that avalanche.

Also, Ben's freelancing is often detrimental in the RZ- everything is compacted and he has less time and space to make his scrambling break down the coverage.

One thing I have not mentioned- is that this freelance tendency has increased dramatically over the last couple seasons.

When Whipple was the QB coach, and Whiz the OC- Ben actually would run quick slants and hit the hot route on pre-reads.

HeHateMe
05-03-2010, 04:29 PM
Lastly, in respect to "feeding the trolls"-

Because someone has an opinion that does not coincide with yours does not make them a troll.

If everyone on this board had the exact opinions on each matter- it would be a very boring board.

I have no problem with people who want to be contrarian, so long as they can support their ideas intelligently.

Defensive coordinators in the NFL disagree with you. They bring pressure from the outside because Ben is so dangerous outside the pocket. Unless teams sell out to come at him. Then they bring pressure up the middle as well as from the outside.

As for the hot read, you're not seeing things from behind the QB. One of my favorite camera angles is the one behind the QB. I love it when they show things that people just can't see from the side angle. Guys look wide open from the side, but then you see the QB's view and all of a sudden there's nothing but the smallest window, if that.

Opposing viewpoints is one thing. Nothing wrong with that. Someone coming on here with a clear bias and hatred for a player, and making post after post after post about that player, all while twisting facts as "support" is not an opposing viewpoint. That is a troll.

This is by far one of the best Steelers forums on the net. There are a rational bunch of guys here. But allowing one person to go on and on with a baseless rant is a sure way to swirl this place down the drain quickly.[/quote]

:Agree

This hehatesben guy is a :Hater
He says I value Ben over tha steelers. Well untill Ben does not have BLACK AND GOLD on every sunday then yes I support him as a steeler![/quote]

Funny Tomlin has on Black and Gold every Sunday but he doesnt share the SAME support. When he wins "He won with Cowhers team" but its ironic that he doesnt lose with Cowhers teams. The wins are Cowhers but the losses are his own.
Ben consistent Steelers Nation. If you are going to SUPPORT STEELERS, then SUPPORT them all or you will seem like a hypocrite.

HeHateMe
05-03-2010, 04:31 PM
...
GREAT POST And this is EXACTLY what the Better teams do to Ben and that is why he struggles. Bellicheat wrote the book on how to stop Ben. Ben eats a man to man to man alive. The zone you described (Cover 2 man) gives him FITS. Especially in the redzone.


Yep- I was going to mention Belichick but didn't feel like setting off that avalanche.

Also, Ben's freelancing is often detrimental in the RZ- everything is compacted and he has less time and space to make his scrambling break down the coverage.

One thing I have not mentioned- is that this freelance tendency has increased dramatically over the last couple seasons.

When Whipple was the QB coach, and Whiz the OC- Ben actually would run quick slants and hit the hot route on pre-reads.

Be careful, with that most ACCURATE post you will be deemed a Troll because you criticize Ben. Funny when Tomlin or Arians are criticized no one is considered a Troll then. Telling

ANPSTEEL
05-03-2010, 04:37 PM
...
GREAT POST And this is EXACTLY what the Better teams do to Ben and that is why he struggles. Bellicheat wrote the book on how to stop Ben. Ben eats a man to man to man alive. The zone you described (Cover 2 man) gives him FITS. Especially in the redzone.


Yep- I was going to mention Belichick but didn't feel like setting off that avalanche.

Also, Ben's freelancing is often detrimental in the RZ- everything is compacted and he has less time and space to make his scrambling break down the coverage.

One thing I have not mentioned- is that this freelance tendency has increased dramatically over the last couple seasons.

When Whipple was the QB coach, and Whiz the OC- Ben actually would run quick slants and hit the hot route on pre-reads.

Be careful, with that most ACCURATE post you will be deemed a Troll because you criticize Ben. Funny when Tomlin or Arians are criticized no one is considered a Troll then. Telling

I'm not sure why you are getting the heat that you are- but usually it is not so much the content - but the delivery which sets others off.

typically, I try to see it from all sides, before I stand on my soap box and tell everyone I'm the smartest mofo - and my views are infallible. :lol:

/sarcasm

NW Steeler
05-03-2010, 04:45 PM
Please stop feeding the troll.

:nono

Thank you.

Thanks for the slap. I'm done. Further discussion would be the same as...
:HeadBanger :HeadBanger :HeadBanger :HeadBanger :HeadBanger :HeadBanger :HeadBanger :HeadBanger :HeadBanger :HeadBanger :HeadBanger :HeadBanger :HeadBanger :HeadBanger :HeadBanger :HeadBanger :HeadBanger :HeadBanger
TRANSLATION- I CAN'T COME UP WITH ANY REFUTATIONS FOR THIS GUY. SO I WILL TAKE THE EASY
WAY OUT AND ATTRIBUTE MY SILENCE TO "NOT WANTING TO FEED THE TROLL"
LOL
CLASSIC

Because you can spew stats from select games doesn't mean you know jack sh!t, actually. All the proof I need is that the Steelers had good, in fact very good teams in the Cowher era that could NEVER get over the hump because of QB play. He finally did it with Ben. Since you like to spew out stats and "facts" look at how many fourth quarter comebacks that Ben has in his career. Did we have that capability before him? No. Does he sometimes cause the situations that we are put in in said fourth quarters? Yes. It is your opinion that Ben can be replaced and that Leftwich can be better than Ben in his place, right? Well, you have no PROOF of that as you like to say. It is you OPINION. Mine is that I would rather have Ben on the field leading our offense. That is based on watching the Steelers for over 30 years, on my opinion, and on history. I'm glad we have Lefty right now to steady the ship in Ben's absence, and to be his backup, but that is it.

SteelAbility
05-03-2010, 04:47 PM
HHM,

Dude you're just on here to show everyone what an argumentation b*d*ss you are. The truth is your arguments look at ONE side of the coin, ignore game dynamics and opponent preparation (the simplest explanation for why Leftwich "outplayed" Ben - i.e. the opponents prepared for Ben, then got thrown for a loop when Leftwich came in and their gameplan suddenly broke down because he has a completely different set of tendencies - IF they had prepared first for Lefty, then Ben would have smoked them coming in off the bench). No QB has a great game every time and if you wen't by a game or two, Sean Salisbury can be made out to be worthy of the HOF. Likewise, Emmit Smith can be made out to wannabe cast-off.

You take the downsides of Ben and you cast them under a microscope to make them look huge. You take the upsides and cast them from a telescope view to make them look minimal. Your argumentation in fact sucks as it completely ignores the upsides. It's all about strong-arming to make your assumptions look fair and balanced.

Look at the Os playoff performance under Ben ...

- 8-2 W/L record
- 26.5 ppg (compare to Peyton Manning at 21.5 ppg) Need I remind you of the perfect pass dropped by Sweed in the 08 AFCCG? There, another 0.7 ppg (realistically bringing it to 27.2 ppg - AGAINST PLAYOFF QUALITY D)
- NEVER scored under 21 in a game
- In the two losses, scored 27 and 29 respectively (the 29 was due to a point at which they went for 2 and missed (due to a very questionable Ward holding call) then went for 2 again and missed - normally would have been a 31 point performance) SO DON'T SAY IT WAS ALL DEFENSE. THAT'S BS. In the other loss the D gave up 34 points. Ben had the pick-6, yes, no argument there.
- Need I remind you of the absolute clutch performance with 1st and 20 at our own 10 in SB43?


We all know that many of Ben's sacks are because he looks for plays whereas other QBs are willing to throw it away. But many of them are due to very poor OL blocking. TV analysts/experts have talked about the poor pass-blocking at length. These are the things you just conveniently ignore in your arguments. You focus solely on the heads side of the coin. Yes, those are facts, but for every one of those there's 4 or 5 great plays made by Ben.

HeHateMe
05-03-2010, 04:49 PM
...
GREAT POST And this is EXACTLY what the Better teams do to Ben and that is why he struggles. Bellicheat wrote the book on how to stop Ben. Ben eats a man to man to man alive. The zone you described (Cover 2 man) gives him FITS. Especially in the redzone.


Yep- I was going to mention Belichick but didn't feel like setting off that avalanche.

Also, Ben's freelancing is often detrimental in the RZ- everything is compacted and he has less time and space to make his scrambling break down the coverage.

One thing I have not mentioned- is that this freelance tendency has increased dramatically over the last couple seasons.

When Whipple was the QB coach, and Whiz the OC- Ben actually would run quick slants and hit the hot route on pre-reads.

Be careful, with that most ACCURATE post you will be deemed a Troll because you criticize Ben. Funny when Tomlin or Arians are criticized no one is considered a Troll then. Telling

I'm not sure why you are getting the heat that you are- but usually it is not so much the content - but the delivery which sets others off.

typically, I try to see it from all sides, before I stand on my soap box and tell everyone I'm the smartest mofo - and my views are infallible. :lol:

/sarcasm
ANYONE who criticizes Ben is an automatic troll. I have no bias. If I am lying on Ben, I invite ALL to point out any lies.

NW Steeler
05-03-2010, 04:49 PM
SteelAbility, that was a great post. Regardless of what side you are on.

HeHateMe
05-03-2010, 05:03 PM
[quote=cruzer8]Please stop feeding the troll.

:nono

Thank you.

Thanks for the slap. I'm done. Further discussion would be the same as...
:HeadBanger :HeadBanger :HeadBanger :HeadBanger :HeadBanger :HeadBanger :HeadBanger :HeadBanger :HeadBanger :HeadBanger :HeadBanger :HeadBanger :HeadBanger :HeadBanger :HeadBanger :HeadBanger :HeadBanger :HeadBanger
TRANSLATION- I CAN'T COME UP WITH ANY REFUTATIONS FOR THIS GUY. SO I WILL TAKE THE EASY
WAY OUT AND ATTRIBUTE MY SILENCE TO "NOT WANTING TO FEED THE TROLL"
LOL
CLASSIC



















Because you can spew stats from select games doesn't mean you know jack sh!t, actually. All the proof I need is that the Steelers had good, in fact very good teams in the Cowher era that could NEVER get over the hump because of QB play. He finally did it with Ben. Since you like to spew out stats and "facts" look at how many fourth quarter comebacks that Ben has in his career. Did we have that capability before him? No. Does he sometimes cause the situations that we are put in in said fourth quarters? Yes. It is your opinion that Ben can be replaced and that Leftwich can be better than Ben in his place, right? Well, you have no PROOF of that as you like to say. It is you OPINION. Mine is that I would rather have Ben on the field leading our offense. That is based on watching the Steelers for over 30 years, on my opinion, and on history. I'm glad we have Lefty right now to steady the ship in Ben's absence, and to be his backup, but that is it.[/quote:2c40cqwq]


Did Cowher get over the hump because of Ben? Seems to me that Ben set a record for FUTILITY in SB 40. Go ahead and mention the three
games prior to SB 40. Had we lost the SB would those games of mattered? Good thing we were playing the WEAK Seahawks or we would have lost.
4th quarter comebacks impress me when you are on a bad team (ala Elway/Marino) they don't impress me when you are on a GOOD TEAM. ESPECIALLY
when you have a defense as good as ours. Was Bradshaw known for comebacks? HECK NO. He had a dominant defense and he put points on the
board so there was no need to "comeback". Would it be impressive if the U.S Military had to "come back" in a war with Iraq? With our MIGHT?
We are supposed to CRUSH them! With our Defense we have no business being down. Like in the SB (43) our defense held Warner SEVEN
points for 3 quarters. Even added a TD. All our offense could muster was THIRTEEN points. We SHOULD HAVE blew them out, instead of having
to "come back". Those Comebacks are indictments against Ben. You don't see Manning, Brees and Brady having to comeback often do you?
Its called executing and putting points on the board. Ben plays when he feels like it and one of my biggest gripes against the guy. When Leftwich
is in WATCH how fast we get out in front and dont have to "come back"

papillon
05-03-2010, 05:11 PM
SteelAbility, that was a great post. Regardless of what side you are on.

The biggest problem that I see with with fans of the Steelers and Ben is that many fans are unable to grasp his style of play and to sit back and enjoy the madness that is Ben Roethlisberger. If you are looking for a classical drop back passer, 1-2-3 right foot, release or 1-2-3-4-5 right foot, release or 1-2-3-4-5-6-7 right foot release like Manning, Montana, Brees, etc Ben will never impress you.

If you are a fan of the scrambling type quarterback, Tarkenton, Elway, Randall Cunningham, Pasorini (to a degree), Stabler, Ben really isn't that either. Ben brings his own style and character to the position that has never been seen before and may never be seen again. He invites (it seems), linemen to chase him and attempt to get him on the ground only to escape, he can at times play in rhythm and he can at times be the scrambler, but for the most part he's in a category all his own and many fans have not embraced it yet.

He can appear unprepared, when, in fact he has prepared, he can appear to be baffled by defenses, when, in fact he isn't and he certainly has his lapses of sanity when you watch and say to yourself, "what the f**k is doing, but in the end he's the most exciting player in the game right now, bar none and I've come to appreciate his style, regardless of how maddening it can be at times.

We complain that we could have another Super Bowl, had he played better in the '04 playoffs or stayed off the Hyabusa or didn't get involved with hotel employees or college girls, but as a Steeler fan, having two SBs in the past 5 years is outstanding and Ben is the major reason for those trophies. I've learned to love his style of play, being a Steeler fan has never been this exciting week-in and week-out and that includes the 70s.

Pappy

SteelAbility
05-03-2010, 05:11 PM
[quote=cruzer8]Please stop feeding the troll.

:nono

Thank you.

Thanks for the slap. I'm done. Further discussion would be the same as...
:HeadBanger :HeadBanger :HeadBanger :HeadBanger :HeadBanger :HeadBanger :HeadBanger :HeadBanger :HeadBanger :HeadBanger :HeadBanger :HeadBanger :HeadBanger :HeadBanger :HeadBanger :HeadBanger :HeadBanger :HeadBanger
TRANSLATION- I CAN'T COME UP WITH ANY REFUTATIONS FOR THIS GUY. SO I WILL TAKE THE EASY
WAY OUT AND ATTRIBUTE MY SILENCE TO "NOT WANTING TO FEED THE TROLL"
LOL
CLASSIC



















Because you can spew stats from select games doesn't mean you know jack sh!t, actually. All the proof I need is that the Steelers had good, in fact very good teams in the Cowher era that could NEVER get over the hump because of QB play. He finally did it with Ben. Since you like to spew out stats and "facts" look at how many fourth quarter comebacks that Ben has in his career. Did we have that capability before him? No. Does he sometimes cause the situations that we are put in in said fourth quarters? Yes. It is your opinion that Ben can be replaced and that Leftwich can be better than Ben in his place, right? Well, you have no PROOF of that as you like to say. It is you OPINION. Mine is that I would rather have Ben on the field leading our offense. That is based on watching the Steelers for over 30 years, on my opinion, and on history. I'm glad we have Lefty right now to steady the ship in Ben's absence, and to be his backup, but that is it.


Did Cowher get over the hump because of Ben? Seems to me that Ben set a record for FUTILITY in SB 40. Go ahead and mention the three
games prior to SB 40. Had we lost the SB would those games of mattered? Good thing we were playing the WEAK Seahawks or we would have lost.
4th quarter comebacks impress me when you are on a bad team (ala Elway/Marino) they don't impress me when you are on a GOOD TEAM. ESPECIALLY
when you have a defense as good as ours. Was Bradshaw known for comebacks? HECK NO. He had a dominant defense and he put points on the
board so there was no need to "comeback". Would it be impressive if the U.S Military had to "come back" in a war with Iraq? With our MIGHT?
We are supposed to CRUSH them! With our Defense we have no business being down. Like in the SB (43) our defense held Warner SEVEN
points for 3 quarters. Even added a TD. All our offense could muster was THIRTEEN points. We SHOULD HAVE blew them out, instead of having
to "come back". Those Comebacks are indictments against Ben. You don't see Manning, Brees and Brady having to comeback often do you?
Its called executing and putting points on the board. Ben plays when he feels like it and one of my biggest gripes against the guy. When Leftwich
is in WATCH how fast we get out in front and dont have to "come back"[/quote:1k7w874e]

I seem to recall a certain D in SB43, that, while good, gave up a score to put the Cards up by 3 with about 2 minutes to go. Does a good D or bad D matter at that point? You know, 1st and 20 at your own 10 and down by 3? The situation is the situation. Good D or bad D. When it was needed most, Ben overcame with a string of successive plays. Oh, yeah, he beat 3 defenders with a perfect pass where only his man could get it and on the previous play also made a completely catchable pass on the other side of the field. So, even though his teammates let down, he still came up BIG.

And in SB40, go to the game tape. There were several easy drops by Steeler receivers and when he had to, he made the plays. He converted a 3rd and 28 with a nice move to the outside to set up the 1st TD. And, yes, the previous 3 games is absolutely a valid argument. Your dismissal of that is pure arrogance. Without that, we weren't even in the SB. In fact Ben made the BEST defensive play of the AFCC playoffs, correcting a huge mistake by an arrogant and cocky Jerome Bettis carrying ball all cavalier at the goal line.

HeHateMe
05-03-2010, 05:17 PM
HHM,

Dude you're just on here to show everyone what an argumentation b*d*ss you are. The truth is your arguments look at ONE side of the coin, ignore game dynamics and opponent preparation (the simplest explanation for why Leftwich "outplayed" Ben - i.e. the opponents prepared for Ben, then got thrown for a loop when Leftwich came in and their gameplan suddenly broke down because he has a completely different set of tendencies - IF they had prepared first for Lefty, then Ben would have smoked them coming in off the bench). No QB has a great game every time and if you wen't by a game or two, Sean Salisbury can be made out to be worthy of the HOF. Likewise, Emmit Smith can be made out to wannabe cast-off.

You take the downsides of Ben and you cast them under a microscope to make them look huge. You take the upsides and cast them from a telescope view to make them look minimal. Your argumentation in fact sucks as it completely ignores the upsides. It's all about strong-arming to make your assumptions look fair and balanced.

Look at the Os playoff performance under Ben ...

- 8-2 W/L record
- 26.5 ppg (compare to Peyton Manning at 21.5 ppg) Need I remind you of the perfect pass dropped by Sweed in the 08 AFCCG? There, another 0.7 ppg (realistically bringing it to 27.2 ppg - AGAINST PLAYOFF QUALITY D)
- NEVER scored under 21 in a game
- In the two losses, scored 27 and 29 respectively (the 29 was due to a point at which they went for 2 and missed (due to a very questionable Ward holding call) then went for 2 again and missed - normally would have been a 31 point performance) SO DON'T SAY IT WAS ALL DEFENSE. THAT'S BS. In the other loss the D gave up 34 points. Ben had the pick-6, yes, no argument there.
- Need I remind you of the absolute clutch performance with 1st and 20 at our own 10 in SB43?


We all know that many of Ben's sacks are because he looks for plays whereas other QBs are willing to throw it away. But many of them are due to very poor OL blocking. TV analysts/experts have talked about the poor pass-blocking at length. These are the things you just conveniently ignore in your arguments. You focus solely on the heads side of the coin. Yes, those are facts, but for every one of those there's 4 or 5 great plays made by Ben.

Oh here we go with the PREDICTABLE "The team prepared for Ben and not Leftwich" argument. Allow me to eat that up with the following scenario. The Cowboys are playing the Eagles and Mcnabb gets injured. Kolb comes in and leads the Eagles to victory. After the game Jerry Jones approaches Wade Phillips and asks "How come we couldn't stop the backup?" Wade Phillips "Well Jerry we only prepared for Mcnabb we didnt prepare for Kolb" How LONG do you think said coach will be the coach? You dont make it to the PROFESSIONAL level by not preparing for all situations.
Sorry, I didnt go by " a game or two" I listed EVERY game of Ben's career vs a GOOD DEFENSE And Ben's stats were garbage. Did you miss that post? Of course you did.
Ben has a better TEAM than Manning. IF Manning was on the Steelers WITH Ben, WHO is the starter? Who was the MVP this season? Who has MORE MVPS? I can do the same with Ike Taylor vs Champ Bailey. Ike has won more playoff games, has more rings BUT WHO IS BETTER? Ike just happens to be on a better team. Max Starks has 2 rings and more wins than Joe Thomas but IS HE BETTER? No, he is just fortunate to be on a better team. WHAT expert says "Ben Roethlisberger is better than Manning?" ZERO. Or Brady or Brees or Warner or Favre. They just don't say that.
If the OLine blocks poorly then WHY do the sacks disappear when Leftwich is in the game? Batch (31 passes in 07 vs the Ravens and ZERO sacks). Chiefs line was killing Ben/Batch comes in cold and throws two passes and the line is no problem (small sample size but my point is he makes his read and gets the ball out) Ben doesnt. Dixon was greener than a pool table, came in vs the Ravens and ZERO SACKS. If you want to say "They had max protections on for Dixon" etc. I can refute that. I have the game recorded. I have diagramed EVERY pass and that NOT the case at all. The sacks are on Ben. WATCH, they wont be a problem in the 4 games he misses GUARANTEED. Of course I focus on the Cons of Bens game, isnt that what I'm presenting? WOW

HeHateMe
05-03-2010, 05:19 PM
SteelAbility, that was a great post. Regardless of what side you are on.

The biggest problem that I see with with fans of the Steelers and Ben is that many fans are unable to grasp his style of play and to sit back and enjoy the madness that is Ben Roethlisberger. If you are looking for a classical drop back passer, 1-2-3 right foot, release or 1-2-3-4-5 right foot, release or 1-2-3-4-5-6-7 right foot release like Manning, Montana, Brees, etc Ben will never impress you.

If you are a fan of the scrambling type quarterback, Tarkenton, Elway, Randall Cunningham, Pasorini (to a degree), Stabler, Ben really isn't that either. Ben brings his own style and character to the position that has never been seen before and may never be seen again. He invites (it seems), linemen to chase him and attempt to get him on the ground only to escape, he can at times play in rhythm and he can at times be the scrambler, but for the most part he's in a category all his own and many fans have not embraced it yet.

He can appear unprepared, when, in fact he has prepared, he can appear to be baffled by defenses, when, in fact he isn't and he certainly has his lapses of sanity when you watch and say to yourself, "what the f**k is doing, but in the end he's the most exciting player in the game right now, bar none and I've come to appreciate his style, regardless of how maddening it can be at times.

We complain that we could have another Super Bowl, had he played better in the '04 playoffs or stayed off the Hyabusa or didn't get involved with hotel employees or college girls, but as a Steeler fan, having two SBs in the past 5 years is outstanding and Ben is the major reason for those trophies. I've learned to love his style of play, being a Steeler fan has never been this exciting week-in and week-out and that includes the 70s.

Pappy
I respect your opinion but BEN is NOT the major reason for those trophies. The Defense and running game are. Sorry

HeHateMe
05-03-2010, 05:27 PM
You mean the D that SCORED A TD and held Warner to 7 points for three quarters. While the offense putt putted all game? Of course in the 4th they were tired. Ben threw a pass that he admittedly thought was a int. That to me is LUCK. Santonio Holmes was the star of that drive. Hence the MVP. What was Ben doing prior to the 4th quarter. Do explain. Because if Ben plays the whole game like he played the 4th we blow them out.

I have SB 40. Please point out EASY DROPS and I will look for them. How about that PUNT that Ben threw to Hines? Where Hines had to stop, wave his arm to signal the fair catch, then catch it. How about that horrible int that Ben threw in the redzone? Dismissed the 3 games? I certainly did not. I mentioned it at least twice. Had we lost SB 40 would the 3 games matter? No sir. Just like the 15-1 season didnt matter after the AFCCG of 04.

NW Steeler
05-03-2010, 05:29 PM
:shock:

Ok dude, we get, our argument wasn't really about Ben being an elite QB, it was about whether or not he is the best QB that we have.
Our running game was what won our last two championships? Really? It had nothing to do with our season or win in SB XLIII.

papillon
05-03-2010, 05:30 PM
SteelAbility, that was a great post. Regardless of what side you are on.

The biggest problem that I see with with fans of the Steelers and Ben is that many fans are unable to grasp his style of play and to sit back and enjoy the madness that is Ben Roethlisberger. If you are looking for a classical drop back passer, 1-2-3 right foot, release or 1-2-3-4-5 right foot, release or 1-2-3-4-5-6-7 right foot release like Manning, Montana, Brees, etc Ben will never impress you.

If you are a fan of the scrambling type quarterback, Tarkenton, Elway, Randall Cunningham, Pasorini (to a degree), Stabler, Ben really isn't that either. Ben brings his own style and character to the position that has never been seen before and may never be seen again. He invites (it seems), linemen to chase him and attempt to get him on the ground only to escape, he can at times play in rhythm and he can at times be the scrambler, but for the most part he's in a category all his own and many fans have not embraced it yet.

He can appear unprepared, when, in fact he has prepared, he can appear to be baffled by defenses, when, in fact he isn't and he certainly has his lapses of sanity when you watch and say to yourself, "what the f**k is doing, but in the end he's the most exciting player in the game right now, bar none and I've come to appreciate his style, regardless of how maddening it can be at times.

We complain that we could have another Super Bowl, had he played better in the '04 playoffs or stayed off the Hyabusa or didn't get involved with hotel employees or college girls, but as a Steeler fan, having two SBs in the past 5 years is outstanding and Ben is the major reason for those trophies. I've learned to love his style of play, being a Steeler fan has never been this exciting week-in and week-out and that includes the 70s.

Pappy
I respect your opinion but BEN is NOT the major reason for those trophies. The Defense and running game are. Sorry

Ben is the reason and will always be, unfortunately, many will never beleive that because they don't like him as a person and his style of play doesn't fit in a neat compartmentalized box.

Without Ben the Steeler organization is still looking for #5 not sitting atop the NFL with 6 Super Bowls. You may not see it that way and I respect your opinion, but the results are the results. The Steeler defense of the 90s were some of the best ever, but no Super Bowls. The running game during that period was as good as any and still no Super Bowls. Combining the good defense, good running game with a quarterback that can produce under pressure has netted two more SB trophies.

He's won more games in his first 6 years than any quarterback in history, that's difficult to argue with (We'll see where he ends up when his career is finished.). He may have also made some of the most boneheaded plays in that time frame as well, but, in the end I'll take the final results and the excitement he brings to the game.

Pappy

SteelAbility
05-03-2010, 05:31 PM
HHM,

Dude you're just on here to show everyone what an argumentation b*d*ss you are. The truth is your arguments look at ONE side of the coin, ignore game dynamics and opponent preparation (the simplest explanation for why Leftwich "outplayed" Ben - i.e. the opponents prepared for Ben, then got thrown for a loop when Leftwich came in and their gameplan suddenly broke down because he has a completely different set of tendencies - IF they had prepared first for Lefty, then Ben would have smoked them coming in off the bench). No QB has a great game every time and if you wen't by a game or two, Sean Salisbury can be made out to be worthy of the HOF. Likewise, Emmit Smith can be made out to wannabe cast-off.

You take the downsides of Ben and you cast them under a microscope to make them look huge. You take the upsides and cast them from a telescope view to make them look minimal. Your argumentation in fact sucks as it completely ignores the upsides. It's all about strong-arming to make your assumptions look fair and balanced.

Look at the Os playoff performance under Ben ...

- 8-2 W/L record
- 26.5 ppg (compare to Peyton Manning at 21.5 ppg) Need I remind you of the perfect pass dropped by Sweed in the 08 AFCCG? There, another 0.7 ppg (realistically bringing it to 27.2 ppg - AGAINST PLAYOFF QUALITY D)
- NEVER scored under 21 in a game
- In the two losses, scored 27 and 29 respectively (the 29 was due to a point at which they went for 2 and missed (due to a very questionable Ward holding call) then went for 2 again and missed - normally would have been a 31 point performance) SO DON'T SAY IT WAS ALL DEFENSE. THAT'S BS. In the other loss the D gave up 34 points. Ben had the pick-6, yes, no argument there.
- Need I remind you of the absolute clutch performance with 1st and 20 at our own 10 in SB43?


We all know that many of Ben's sacks are because he looks for plays whereas other QBs are willing to throw it away. But many of them are due to very poor OL blocking. TV analysts/experts have talked about the poor pass-blocking at length. These are the things you just conveniently ignore in your arguments. You focus solely on the heads side of the coin. Yes, those are facts, but for every one of those there's 4 or 5 great plays made by Ben.

Oh here we go with the PREDICTABLE "The team prepared for Ben and not Leftwich" argument. Allow me to eat that up with the following scenario. The Cowboys are playing the Eagles and Mcnabb gets injured. Kolb comes in and leads the Eagles to victory. After the game Jerry Jones approaches Wade Phillips and asks "How come we couldn't stop the backup?" Wade Phillips "Well Jerry we only prepared for Mcnabb we didnt prepare for Kolb" How LONG do you think said coach will be the coach? You dont make it to the PROFESSIONAL level by not preparing for all situations.
Sorry, I didnt go by " a game or two" I listed EVERY game of Ben's career vs a GOOD DEFENSE And Ben's stats were garbage. Did you miss that post? Of course you did.
Ben has a better TEAM than Manning. IF Manning was on the Steelers WITH Ben, WHO is the starter? Who was the MVP this season? Who has MORE MVPS? I can do the same with Ike Taylor vs Champ Bailey. Ike has won more playoff games, has more rings BUT WHO IS BETTER? Ike just happens to be on a better team. Max Starks has 2 rings and more wins than Joe Thomas but IS HE BETTER? No, he is just fortunate to be on a better team. WHAT expert says "Ben Roethlisberger is better than Manning?" ZERO. Or Brady or Brees or Warner or Favre. They just don't say that.
If the OLine blocks poorly then WHY do the sacks disappear when Leftwich is in the game? Batch (31 passes in 07 vs the Ravens and ZERO sacks). Chiefs line was killing Ben/Batch comes in cold and throws two passes and the line is no problem (small sample size but my point is he makes his read and gets the ball out) Ben doesnt. Dixon was greener than a pool table, came in vs the Ravens and ZERO SACKS. If you want to say "They had max protections on for Dixon" etc. I can refute that. I have the game recorded. I have diagramed EVERY pass and that NOT the case at all. The sacks are on Ben. WATCH, they wont be a problem in the 4 games he misses GUARANTEED. Of course I focus on the Cons of Bens game, isnt that what I'm presenting? WOW

Genius, debunking my argument with a hypothetical conversation. :roll: Are you F-ing kidding me!!?? You have one week to prepare for an opponent (unless you're coming off the bye). YOU ONLY HAVE SO MUCH TIME AND RESOURCES TO GO AROUND. What percentage of your preparation and effort is going to be spent on the regular starter versus the backup. Well, IF YOU ARE SMART, you will play the probabilities and spend the vast majority of your preparation and effort on the starter. Therefore the predicatability argument is completely valid. But I guess your hypothetical mental conversations supercede probability and logic. :roll:

What happens if the Cowboys put equal preparation into McNabb and Kolb, then McNabb DOESN'T get hurt and all the preparation that could have been put into McNabb (but was put into Kolb because some idiot couldn't do simple probability analysis) leads to the Cowboys losing. Then the conversation goes like this ...

"Why weren't we prepared for McNabb."
"Well, because McNabb could have gone down and so, preparing for all situations we split our preparation between Mcabb and Kolb 50/50"

How long do you think a guy's job will last when he takes a 95/5 prorposition and treats it as 50/50?

Again, you're twisting the logic and looking at things one-sided.

As far as Dixon vs. the Ravens, in case you didn't notice Dixon hardly threw at all. Our starter was out and we simply couldn't afford for the backup to go down with a hit (because, you know, maybe the starter won't be ready for the NEXT game and wer'e down to our 3rd with absolutely no backup). The prime directive in that game was to keep Dixon injury-free. Good grief. You're twisting things out of context and playing one side of things is just ridiculous.

WoodleyofTroy
05-03-2010, 05:31 PM
I respect your opinion but BEN is NOT the major reason for those trophies. The Defense and running game are. Sorry

In that case, the Steelers should have about 5 more Super Bowls when Bettis was in his prime and the Defense was dominant.

All I see is the two with Ben at QB.


When have the Running game and Defense not been good?

NW Steeler
05-03-2010, 05:34 PM
You mean the D that SCORED A TD and held Warner to 7 points for three quarters. While the offense putt putted all game? Of course in the 4th they were tired. Ben threw a pass that he admittedly thought was a int. That to me is LUCK. Santonio Holmes was the star of that drive. Hence the MVP. What was Ben doing prior to the 4th quarter. Do explain. Because if Ben plays the whole game like he played the 4th we blow them out.

I have SB 40. Please point out EASY DROPS and I will look for them. How about that PUNT that Ben threw to Hines? Where Hines had to stop, wave his arm to signal the fair catch, then catch it. How about that horrible int that Ben threw in the redzone? Dismissed the 3 games? I certainly did not. I mentioned it at least twice. Had we lost SB 40 would the 3 games matter? No sir. Just like the 15-1 season didnt matter after the AFCCG of 04.


Ben threw the pass to Hines, right? After escaping pressure and waiting for Hines to come open (SB XL). In XLIII, Ben threw a PERFECT pass to Santonio on the previous play that he let go straight through his hands. Then he followed that up with an even more unbelievable pass in the corner of the EZ to win it. They WON SB XL. You keep speaking in what if's. Try looking at his body of work instead of pointing out his flaws or even attributing his memorable plays to luck. Luck? Really?

HeHateMe
05-03-2010, 05:37 PM
:shock:

Ok dude, we get, our argument wasn't really about Ben being an elite QB, it was about whether or not he is the best QB that we have.
Our running game was what won our last two championships? Really? It had nothing to do with our season or win in SB XLIII.
Ok now THAT'S a different topic. Ben is the best qb we have. Never said he wasnt.
I said our running game won it for us is 05 and our defense in 08. That is what I said.

HeHateMe
05-03-2010, 05:39 PM
I respect your opinion but BEN is NOT the major reason for those trophies. The Defense and running game are. Sorry

In that case, the Steelers should have about 5 more Super Bowls when Bettis was in his prime and the Defense was dominant.

All I see is the two with Ben at QB.


When have the Running game and Defense not been good?
One bad element. CONSERVATIVE Cowher. He is the one who decided to play PRINCESS KORDELL isnt he?

SteelAbility
05-03-2010, 05:40 PM
I respect your opinion but BEN is NOT the major reason for those trophies. The Defense and running game are. Sorry

In that case, the Steelers should have about 5 more Super Bowls when Bettis was in his prime and the Defense was dominant.

All I see is the two with Ben at QB.


When have the Running game and Defense not been good?

Another point that's been conveniently ignored. We had dominant Ds through most of the 90s and VERY GOOD running games and still came out with no titles ... until Ben came along.

If I recall correctly, in SB XXX, our D was absolutely kicking @$$ in the 2nd half and who blew that game? Oh, yeah, the QB with not one but two big INTs in the 2nd half.

HeHateMe
05-03-2010, 05:40 PM
You mean the D that SCORED A TD and held Warner to 7 points for three quarters. While the offense putt putted all game? Of course in the 4th they were tired. Ben threw a pass that he admittedly thought was a int. That to me is LUCK. Santonio Holmes was the star of that drive. Hence the MVP. What was Ben doing prior to the 4th quarter. Do explain. Because if Ben plays the whole game like he played the 4th we blow them out.

I have SB 40. Please point out EASY DROPS and I will look for them. How about that PUNT that Ben threw to Hines? Where Hines had to stop, wave his arm to signal the fair catch, then catch it. How about that horrible int that Ben threw in the redzone? Dismissed the 3 games? I certainly did not. I mentioned it at least twice. Had we lost SB 40 would the 3 games matter? No sir. Just like the 15-1 season didnt matter after the AFCCG of 04.


Ben threw the pass to Hines, right? After escaping pressure and waiting for Hines to come open (SB XL). In XLIII, Ben threw a PERFECT pass to Santonio on the previous play that he let go straight through his hands. Then he followed that up with an even more unbelievable pass in the corner of the EZ to win it. They WON SB XL. You keep speaking in what if's. Try looking at his body of work instead of pointing out his flaws or even attributing his memorable plays to luck. Luck? Really?
WHY did Sabol call the CATCH the BEST IN SB HISTORY and not the PASS? Do tell?

HeHateMe
05-03-2010, 05:43 PM
I respect your opinion but BEN is NOT the major reason for those trophies. The Defense and running game are. Sorry

In that case, the Steelers should have about 5 more Super Bowls when Bettis was in his prime and the Defense was dominant.

All I see is the two with Ben at QB.


When have the Running game and Defense not been good?

Another point that's been conveniently ignored. We had dominant Ds through most of the 90s and VERY GOOD running games and still came out with no titles ... until Ben came along.

If I recall correctly, in SB XXX, our D was absolutely kicking @$$ in the 2nd half and who blew that game? Oh, yeah, the QB with not one but two big INTs in the 2nd half.
Only because we were playing the potent Cowboys. Had we been playing a team of that caliber in SB40 we lose then too. We are just fortunate that we were playing the Seachickens. Odonnell had a higher rating in SB 30 than Ben did in 40. FACT.

NW Steeler
05-03-2010, 05:44 PM
Sorry, but that is what I thought you were saying in this post:


Ben is NOT our team leader. STOP THAT. Hines and Polamalu are. They exemplify professionalism to the highest degree and they perform on the field. I think Leftwich will start and should. Dixon is not ready. I think Lefty made Ben fans NERVOUS when he was here. Ben fans don't want to see him start and do well, it could mean bad things for Ben. If that happens, I dont rule out the fact that the Steeler brass trade Ben. After the suspension is lifted, his value will go up and we could make a killing and get rid of the cancer all at once. Ben fans will HATE this idea but STEELER fans will think it's smart.

I guess you don't really say it. I took it as you implying that Lefty could replace Ben, permanently and we would be better off. I strongly disagree with that thought, but that is my opinion. I am a Steeler fan, but I am also a fan of Ben as our QB. If I felt we had a better chance to win with someones else under center, then I'd be all for it.

NW Steeler
05-03-2010, 05:48 PM
You mean the D that SCORED A TD and held Warner to 7 points for three quarters. While the offense putt putted all game? Of course in the 4th they were tired. Ben threw a pass that he admittedly thought was a int. That to me is LUCK. Santonio Holmes was the star of that drive. Hence the MVP. What was Ben doing prior to the 4th quarter. Do explain. Because if Ben plays the whole game like he played the 4th we blow them out.

I have SB 40. Please point out EASY DROPS and I will look for them. How about that PUNT that Ben threw to Hines? Where Hines had to stop, wave his arm to signal the fair catch, then catch it. How about that horrible int that Ben threw in the redzone? Dismissed the 3 games? I certainly did not. I mentioned it at least twice. Had we lost SB 40 would the 3 games matter? No sir. Just like the 15-1 season didnt matter after the AFCCG of 04.


Ben threw the pass to Hines, right? After escaping pressure and waiting for Hines to come open (SB XL). In XLIII, Ben threw a PERFECT pass to Santonio on the previous play that he let go straight through his hands. Then he followed that up with an even more unbelievable pass in the corner of the EZ to win it. They WON SB XL. You keep speaking in what if's. Try looking at his body of work instead of pointing out his flaws or even attributing his memorable plays to luck. Luck? Really?
WHY did Sabol call the CATCH the BEST IN SB HISTORY and not the PASS? Do tell?

WTF does that have to do with anything? Tone dropped an easier pass on the previous play! Ben should have been the MVP of XLIII, not Santonio. Using your logic, "what if Santonio had not caught the game winning pass?" What then? Is it Ben's fault? Jeezus....

HeHateMe
05-03-2010, 05:54 PM
HHM,

Dude you're just on here to show everyone what an argumentation b*d*ss you are. The truth is your arguments look at ONE side of the coin, ignore game dynamics and opponent preparation (the simplest explanation for why Leftwich "outplayed" Ben - i.e. the opponents prepared for Ben, then got thrown for a loop when Leftwich came in and their gameplan suddenly broke down because he has a completely different set of tendencies - IF they had prepared first for Lefty, then Ben would have smoked them coming in off the bench). No QB has a great game every time and if you wen't by a game or two, Sean Salisbury can be made out to be worthy of the HOF. Likewise, Emmit Smith can be made out to wannabe cast-off.

You take the downsides of Ben and you cast them under a microscope to make them look huge. You take the upsides and cast them from a telescope view to make them look minimal. Your argumentation in fact sucks as it completely ignores the upsides. It's all about strong-arming to make your assumptions look fair and balanced.

Look at the Os playoff performance under Ben ...

- 8-2 W/L record
- 26.5 ppg (compare to Peyton Manning at 21.5 ppg) Need I remind you of the perfect pass dropped by Sweed in the 08 AFCCG? There, another 0.7 ppg (realistically bringing it to 27.2 ppg - AGAINST PLAYOFF QUALITY D)
- NEVER scored under 21 in a game
- In the two losses, scored 27 and 29 respectively (the 29 was due to a point at which they went for 2 and missed (due to a very questionable Ward holding call) then went for 2 again and missed - normally would have been a 31 point performance) SO DON'T SAY IT WAS ALL DEFENSE. THAT'S BS. In the other loss the D gave up 34 points. Ben had the pick-6, yes, no argument there.
- Need I remind you of the absolute clutch performance with 1st and 20 at our own 10 in SB43?


We all know that many of Ben's sacks are because he looks for plays whereas other QBs are willing to throw it away. But many of them are due to very poor OL blocking. TV analysts/experts have talked about the poor pass-blocking at length. These are the things you just conveniently ignore in your arguments. You focus solely on the heads side of the coin. Yes, those are facts, but for every one of those there's 4 or 5 great plays made by Ben.

Oh here we go with the PREDICTABLE "The team prepared for Ben and not Leftwich" argument. Allow me to eat that up with the following scenario. The Cowboys are playing the Eagles and Mcnabb gets injured. Kolb comes in and leads the Eagles to victory. After the game Jerry Jones approaches Wade Phillips and asks "How come we couldn't stop the backup?" Wade Phillips "Well Jerry we only prepared for Mcnabb we didnt prepare for Kolb" How LONG do you think said coach will be the coach? You dont make it to the PROFESSIONAL level by not preparing for all situations.
Sorry, I didnt go by " a game or two" I listed EVERY game of Ben's career vs a GOOD DEFENSE And Ben's stats were garbage. Did you miss that post? Of course you did.
Ben has a better TEAM than Manning. IF Manning was on the Steelers WITH Ben, WHO is the starter? Who was the MVP this season? Who has MORE MVPS? I can do the same with Ike Taylor vs Champ Bailey. Ike has won more playoff games, has more rings BUT WHO IS BETTER? Ike just happens to be on a better team. Max Starks has 2 rings and more wins than Joe Thomas but IS HE BETTER? No, he is just fortunate to be on a better team. WHAT expert says "Ben Roethlisberger is better than Manning?" ZERO. Or Brady or Brees or Warner or Favre. They just don't say that.
If the OLine blocks poorly then WHY do the sacks disappear when Leftwich is in the game? Batch (31 passes in 07 vs the Ravens and ZERO sacks). Chiefs line was killing Ben/Batch comes in cold and throws two passes and the line is no problem (small sample size but my point is he makes his read and gets the ball out) Ben doesnt. Dixon was greener than a pool table, came in vs the Ravens and ZERO SACKS. If you want to say "They had max protections on for Dixon" etc. I can refute that. I have the game recorded. I have diagramed EVERY pass and that NOT the case at all. The sacks are on Ben. WATCH, they wont be a problem in the 4 games he misses GUARANTEED. Of course I focus on the Cons of Bens game, isnt that what I'm presenting? WOW

Genius, debunking my argument with a hypothetical conversation. :roll: Are you F-ing kidding me!!?? You have one week to prepare for an opponent (unless you're coming off the bye). YOU ONLY HAVE SO MUCH TIME AND RESOURCES TO GO AROUND. What percentage of your preparation and effort is going to be spent on the regular starter versus the backup. Well, IF YOU ARE SMART, you will play the probabilities and spend the vast majority of your preparation and effort on the starter. Therefore the predicatability argument is completely valid. But I guess your hypothetical mental conversations supercede probability and logic. :roll:

What happens if the Cowboys put equal preparation into McNabb and Kolb, then McNabb DOESN'T get hurt and all the preparation that could have been put into McNabb (but was put into Kolb because some idiot couldn't do simple probability analysis) leads to the Cowboys losing. Then the conversation goes like this ...

"Why weren't we prepared for McNabb."
"Well, because McNabb could have gone down and so, preparing for all situations we split our preparation between Mcabb and Kolb 50/50"

How long do you think a guy's job will last when he takes a 95/5 prorposition and treats it as 50/50?

Again, you're twisting the logic and looking at things one-sided.

As far as Dixon vs. the Ravens, in case you didn't notice Dixon hardly threw at all. Our starter was out and we simply couldn't afford for the backup to go down with a hit (because, you know, maybe the starter won't be ready for the NEXT game and wer'e down to our 3rd with absolutely no backup). The prime directive in that game was to keep Dixon injury-free. Good grief. You're twisting things out of context and playing one side of things is just ridiculous.
Hypothetical? You mean like YOU assuming that the DC didnt prepare for the backup? I just made you look like the ignoramous that you are and will continue to do so whenever you oppose me.
Present your proof that the DC doesnt prepare for the backup. (This opens the door for his PREDICTABLE retort "prove that they do"). No coach is worth his weight as a coach if they dont prepare for EVERYTHING. You dont think they have the "book on Leftwich"????????? You obviously have not played any organized sports at any high levels. This is not Madden sir.
Who said anything about EQUAL preparation? Thats silly?SHOW ME WHERE I SAID THAT. Are you desperate? No one said equal. But you better believe they have the book on the backup. The NFL is a VIOLENT game and the advent of a injury is highly probable and if you are not prepared you are as dumb as YOUR arguments. Come on bro.
He gets on me for using a Hypothetical situation so he returns mine with one of his own. LOL
CLASSIC!! . We hardly passed vs the Ravens? LOL. Dixon threw TWENTY SIX passes in his FIRST CAREER START. We ran 38 times and passed 26. Hardly passed?
Please provide PROOF that we were playing not to get Dixon hurt. Talks about hypotheticals and thats all he gives me.
LOL

HeHateMe
05-03-2010, 05:57 PM
Sorry, but that is what I thought you were saying in this post:


Ben is NOT our team leader. STOP THAT. Hines and Polamalu are. They exemplify professionalism to the highest degree and they perform on the field. I think Leftwich will start and should. Dixon is not ready. I think Lefty made Ben fans NERVOUS when he was here. Ben fans don't want to see him start and do well, it could mean bad things for Ben. If that happens, I dont rule out the fact that the Steeler brass trade Ben. After the suspension is lifted, his value will go up and we could make a killing and get rid of the cancer all at once. Ben fans will HATE this idea but STEELER fans will think it's smart.

I guess you don't really say it. I took it as you implying that Lefty could replace Ben, permanently and we would be better off. I strongly disagree with that thought, but that is my opinion. I am a Steeler fan, but I am also a fan of Ben as our QB. If I felt we had a better chance to win with someones else under center, then I'd be all for it.
I'm a Steeler fan as well and dont like the way Ben has brought down my team so excuse me if I am a little hard on him. There is no excuse for his behavior and quite frankly I wish he was gone. I hope to God that Lefty plays well and they Bench Ben. Ben is a loose cannon, dumb and a perv. BAD CHARACTER GUY

HeHateMe
05-03-2010, 06:00 PM
[quote=HeHateMe]You mean the D that SCORED A TD and held Warner to 7 points for three quarters. While the offense putt putted all game? Of course in the 4th they were tired. Ben threw a pass that he admittedly thought was a int. That to me is LUCK. Santonio Holmes was the star of that drive. Hence the MVP. What was Ben doing prior to the 4th quarter. Do explain. Because if Ben plays the whole game like he played the 4th we blow them out.

I have SB 40. Please point out EASY DROPS and I will look for them. How about that PUNT that Ben threw to Hines? Where Hines had to stop, wave his arm to signal the fair catch, then catch it. How about that horrible int that Ben threw in the redzone? Dismissed the 3 games? I certainly did not. I mentioned it at least twice. Had we lost SB 40 would the 3 games matter? No sir. Just like the 15-1 season didnt matter after the AFCCG of 04.


Ben threw the pass to Hines, right? After escaping pressure and waiting for Hines to come open (SB XL). In XLIII, Ben threw a PERFECT pass to Santonio on the previous play that he let go straight through his hands. Then he followed that up with an even more unbelievable pass in the corner of the EZ to win it. They WON SB XL. You keep speaking in what if's. Try looking at his body of work instead of pointing out his flaws or even attributing his memorable plays to luck. Luck? Really?
WHY did Sabol call the CATCH the BEST IN SB HISTORY and not the PASS? Do tell?

WTF does that have to do with anything? Tone dropped an easier pass on the previous play! Ben should have been the MVP of XLIII, not Santonio. Using your logic, "what if Santonio had not caught the game winning pass?" What then? Is it Ben's fault? Jeezus....[/quote:va2djqvk]
Ben should have been the MVP based on what? Based on that fact that he led the game winning drive? Take away those 90 yards and Ben did little all game. It was Holmes who made Francessca miss him and ran the ball down inside the redzone. That was the 2nd biggest play of the drive. The 1st was the CATCH. So he dropped the pass, he made up for it on the next play.

NW Steeler
05-03-2010, 06:09 PM
It was actually Ben's pump fake that caused Francisco to slip on that play. And there you go again, taking away something that DID happen, the 90 yard drive.

HeHateMe
05-03-2010, 06:21 PM
It was actually Ben's pump fake that caused Francisco to slip on that play. And there you go again, taking away something that DID happen, the 90 yard drive.
WHAT safety falls down from a PUMP FAKE? LOL. IF it was Ben's pump fake that caused it then wouldnt he ALREADY be on the ground BEFORE Tone made the catch? He fell because he thought Tone was going to go INSIDE but Tone fooled him and went OUTSIDE and THAT caused him to fall. Check the footage @ about 33 seconds sir.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWj_3qd_0xc

NW Steeler
05-03-2010, 06:28 PM
Well, it looks to me that Francisco was reading Ben, because he was way the hell off of Tone. I thought that he reacted to Ben's pump fake (which does work, that is why they do it), but you are right, he did fall after Tone caught the ball. Whatever. You aren't going to give Ben any credit for anything good he has done, attributing it to luck, but are quick to point out anything that he has done wrong. Like they say opinions are like a-holes, everyone has one. I guess we'll agree to disagree on this.

HeHateMe
05-03-2010, 06:37 PM
Well, it looks to me that Francisco was reading Ben, because he was way the hell off of Tone. I thought that he reacted to Ben's pump fake (which does work, that is why they do it), but you are right, he did fall after Tone caught the ball. Whatever. You aren't going to give Ben any credit for anything good he has done, attributing it to luck, but are quick to point out anything that he has done wrong. Like they say opinions are like a-holes, everyone has one. I guess we'll agree to disagree on this.
A Pump fake is used to MOVE the saftey. NO DB is going to fall Because of a pump fake. Thats HYPERBOLE at its finest. Ben pumped before he threw the ball. Why wasnt he already on the ground IF it was from Ben? No. It was due to TONE as the footage clearly shows. I do give Ben credit. Have you seen me call him a bum? Have I said he SUCKS? I have repeatedly said "Ben is good" but he is NOT great. Ben is good BECAUSE he is on the Steelers. So is Leftwich. How did he look in Tampa? TERRIBLE. You will see how good our team makes a qb look when Byron leads us to a good record to start the season. We wont miss a beat without Ben. Save this post and call me on it.

NW Steeler
05-03-2010, 07:23 PM
Well, it looks to me that Francisco was reading Ben, because he was way the hell off of Tone. I thought that he reacted to Ben's pump fake (which does work, that is why they do it), but you are right, he did fall after Tone caught the ball. Whatever. You aren't going to give Ben any credit for anything good he has done, attributing it to luck, but are quick to point out anything that he has done wrong. Like they say opinions are like a-holes, everyone has one. I guess we'll agree to disagree on this.
A Pump fake is used to MOVE the saftey. NO DB is going to fall Because of a pump fake. Thats HYPERBOLE at its finest. Ben pumped before he threw the ball. Why wasnt he already on the ground IF it was from Ben? No. It was due to TONE as the footage clearly shows. I do give Ben credit. Have you seen me call him a bum? Have I said he SUCKS? I have repeatedly said "Ben is good" but he is NOT great. Ben is good BECAUSE he is on the Steelers. So is Leftwich. How did he look in Tampa? TERRIBLE. You will see how good our team makes a qb look when Byron leads us to a good record to start the season. We wont miss a beat without Ben. Save this post and call me on it.

Yes, a pump fake is used tp move the defender. If a player is moving he CAN SLIP!!! I already said you were right in that Francisco fell after Tone caught the ball. I don't disagree with most of the rest of your post. That which I do disagree with I'll just keep to myself at this point.

hawaiiansteel
05-03-2010, 07:48 PM
Well, it looks to me that Francisco was reading Ben, because he was way the hell off of Tone. I thought that he reacted to Ben's pump fake (which does work, that is why they do it), but you are right, he did fall after Tone caught the ball. Whatever. You aren't going to give Ben any credit for anything good he has done, attributing it to luck, but are quick to point out anything that he has done wrong. Like they say opinions are like a-holes, everyone has one. I guess we'll agree to disagree on this.
A Pump fake is used to MOVE the saftey. NO DB is going to fall Because of a pump fake. Thats HYPERBOLE at its finest. Ben pumped before he threw the ball. Why wasnt he already on the ground IF it was from Ben? No. It was due to TONE as the footage clearly shows. I do give Ben credit. Have you seen me call him a bum? Have I said he SUCKS? I have repeatedly said "Ben is good" but he is NOT great. Ben is good BECAUSE he is on the Steelers. So is Leftwich. How did he look in Tampa? TERRIBLE. You will see how good our team makes a qb look when Byron leads us to a good record to start the season. We wont miss a beat without Ben. Save this post and call me on it.


you know, you actually seem like a very intelligent and knowledgeable poster. have you considered softening your approach and delivery so instead of offending others you would contribute in a positive fashion to this Board?

Wolfhound45
05-03-2010, 08:04 PM
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/images/200809/20080908mf_steelers13_500.jpg

I think he can still play and win. Period.

Dixon has plenty of time ahead of him. I honestly think he is the future of the Steelers. The young man has a lot of talent.

hawaiiansteel
05-03-2010, 08:08 PM
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/images/200809/20080908mf_steelers13_500.jpg

I think he can still play and win. Period.

Dixon has plenty of time ahead of him. I honestly think he is the future of the Steelers. The young man has a lot of talent.


Dixon has a bright future, but i believe Leftwich provides us with a better chance to win NOW...Lefty will be our Opening Day starter.

http://www.post-gazette.com/images4/20100502brk_MH_minicamp_04_330.jpg

Sugar
05-03-2010, 09:34 PM
I'm a Steeler fan as well and dont like the way Ben has brought down my team so excuse me if I am a little hard on him. There is no excuse for his behavior and quite frankly I wish he was gone. I hope to God that Lefty plays well and they Bench Ben. Ben is a loose cannon, dumb and a perv. BAD CHARACTER GUY

Funny, I'm a Steeler fan as well and have no problem with Ben at all. I'm glad he's our QB and the best in franchise history. Remember how dumb TB was to the Nation at the time? If being dumb wins us SB's then fine with me. I really don't have any real problem with what we actually know he did either.

I guess fans see things differently.

SS Laser
05-03-2010, 10:50 PM
This hehatesben guy is a
He says I value Ben over tha steelers. Well untill Ben does not have BLACK AND GOLD on every sunday then yes I support him as a steeler![/quote]

Funny Tomlin has on Black and Gold every Sunday but he doesnt share the SAME support. When he wins "He won with Cowhers team" but its ironic that he doesnt lose with Cowhers teams. The wins are Cowhers but the losses are his own.
Ben consistent Steelers Nation. If you are going to SUPPORT STEELERS, then SUPPORT them all or you will seem like a hypocrite.

Find were I have ever said I do not support anyone that wears BLACK and GOLD? I like Tomlin. I don't mind BA. But I think a different coach would help Ben.
I don't speak for all of steeler nation.
I have never said he won with Cowhers team? I am no hypocrite.
Heck if say Ward has some hammy issues I would take TO. :shock:

HeHateMe
05-04-2010, 12:02 AM
Well, it looks to me that Francisco was reading Ben, because he was way the hell off of Tone. I thought that he reacted to Ben's pump fake (which does work, that is why they do it), but you are right, he did fall after Tone caught the ball. Whatever. You aren't going to give Ben any credit for anything good he has done, attributing it to luck, but are quick to point out anything that he has done wrong. Like they say opinions are like a-holes, everyone has one. I guess we'll agree to disagree on this.
A Pump fake is used to MOVE the saftey. NO DB is going to fall Because of a pump fake. Thats HYPERBOLE at its finest. Ben pumped before he threw the ball. Why wasnt he already on the ground IF it was from Ben? No. It was due to TONE as the footage clearly shows. I do give Ben credit. Have you seen me call him a bum? Have I said he SUCKS? I have repeatedly said "Ben is good" but he is NOT great. Ben is good BECAUSE he is on the Steelers. So is Leftwich. How did he look in Tampa? TERRIBLE. You will see how good our team makes a qb look when Byron leads us to a good record to start the season. We wont miss a beat without Ben. Save this post and call me on it.


you know, you actually seem like a very intelligent and knowledgeable poster. have you considered softening your approach and delivery so instead of offending others you would contribute in a positive fashion to this Board?
Soften it in what regard? Am I calling other posters a Troll, a punk a Bleep? No I am not. However, that is what is being said to me. But I need to soften my stance? Ok

HeHateMe
05-04-2010, 12:11 AM
I'm a Steeler fan as well and dont like the way Ben has brought down my team so excuse me if I am a little hard on him. There is no excuse for his behavior and quite frankly I wish he was gone. I hope to God that Lefty plays well and they Bench Ben. Ben is a loose cannon, dumb and a perv. BAD CHARACTER GUY

Funny, I'm a Steeler fan as well and have no problem with Ben at all. I'm glad he's our QB and the best in franchise history. Remember how dumb TB was to the Nation at the time? If being dumb wins us SB's then fine with me. I really don't have any real problem with what we actually know he did either.

I guess fans see things differently.
I'm sure you don't HOWEVER, It Leftwich was our Starter (with 2 rings) and he got accused of rape TWICE in a year and embarrased our team, I'm SURE you wouldnt feel the same way. You see we tend to be more critical of another race than our own. We tend to give our own race a pass because they look like us. Human nature but its not right. I on the other hand take the race element out of it and perhaps you have as well. But alot of my buddies who are fans have not. I network with thousands of Steeler fans and they make my point with their no tolerance stance with Tomlin but Ben gets every break in the book by them. I hold a mirror to their face all the time. Bradshshaw was not dumb. The only TEAM that said that was the Raiders to get under his skin. Similarly they called Franco and Swann soft. The fact that you call Ben the BEST qb in our history tells me all I need to know about you. The fact that you excuse Ben's behavior tells me the rest.

hawaiiansteel
05-04-2010, 12:37 AM
Well, it looks to me that Francisco was reading Ben, because he was way the hell off of Tone. I thought that he reacted to Ben's pump fake (which does work, that is why they do it), but you are right, he did fall after Tone caught the ball. Whatever. You aren't going to give Ben any credit for anything good he has done, attributing it to luck, but are quick to point out anything that he has done wrong. Like they say opinions are like a-holes, everyone has one. I guess we'll agree to disagree on this.
A Pump fake is used to MOVE the saftey. NO DB is going to fall Because of a pump fake. Thats HYPERBOLE at its finest. Ben pumped before he threw the ball. Why wasnt he already on the ground IF it was from Ben? No. It was due to TONE as the footage clearly shows. I do give Ben credit. Have you seen me call him a bum? Have I said he SUCKS? I have repeatedly said "Ben is good" but he is NOT great. Ben is good BECAUSE he is on the Steelers. So is Leftwich. How did he look in Tampa? TERRIBLE. You will see how good our team makes a qb look when Byron leads us to a good record to start the season. We wont miss a beat without Ben. Save this post and call me on it.


you know, you actually seem like a very intelligent and knowledgeable poster. have you considered softening your approach and delivery so instead of offending others you would contribute in a positive fashion to this Board?
Soften it in what regard? Am I calling other posters a Troll, a punk a Bleep? No I am not. However, that is what is being said to me. But I need to soften my stance? Ok


you don't need to do anything, you can say or act any way you choose to. however, the posters on this Board are not going to be very receptive to your style.

have you ever visited the site: http://www.stillernation.com? it may be a much better site for how you prefer to communicate your ideas than this site where we like to discuss topics without always ending up in an argument.

HeHateMe
05-04-2010, 02:44 AM
Well, it looks to me that Francisco was reading Ben, because he was way the hell off of Tone. I thought that he reacted to Ben's pump fake (which does work, that is why they do it), but you are right, he did fall after Tone caught the ball. Whatever. You aren't going to give Ben any credit for anything good he has done, attributing it to luck, but are quick to point out anything that he has done wrong. Like they say opinions are like a-holes, everyone has one. I guess we'll agree to disagree on this.
A Pump fake is used to MOVE the saftey. NO DB is going to fall Because of a pump fake. Thats HYPERBOLE at its finest. Ben pumped before he threw the ball. Why wasnt he already on the ground IF it was from Ben? No. It was due to TONE as the footage clearly shows. I do give Ben credit. Have you seen me call him a bum? Have I said he SUCKS? I have repeatedly said "Ben is good" but he is NOT great. Ben is good BECAUSE he is on the Steelers. So is Leftwich. How did he look in Tampa? TERRIBLE. You will see how good our team makes a qb look when Byron leads us to a good record to start the season. We wont miss a beat without Ben. Save this post and call me on it.


you know, you actually seem like a very intelligent and knowledgeable poster. have you considered softening your approach and delivery so instead of offending others you would contribute in a positive fashion to this Board?
Soften it in what regard? Am I calling other posters a Troll, a punk a Bleep? No I am not. However, that is what is being said to me. But I need to soften my stance? Ok


you don't need to do anything, you can say or act any way you choose to. however, the posters on this Board are not going to be very receptive to your style.

have you ever visited the site: http://www.stillernation.com? it may be a much better site for how you prefer to communicate your ideas than this site where we like to discuss topics without always ending up in an argument.
The ones that end up in an argument are the ones who get MAD because I voice my opinion about someone they praise (Ben). If guys don't like my opinion then that's fine. I don't mind. You don't see me calling anyone a troll because they don't agree with me. I suggest you send your invites to the ones who are instigating the arguments. I'm going nowhere. Sorry.

feltdizz
05-04-2010, 12:30 PM
Hehateme... I don't hate you, I appreciate your knowledge but your approach is very hard for the Steeler faithful to digest.

I can understand your frustration... when I stopped bashing BA and said he was here to stay becase Ben loves him I was called all sorts of names as well. I also pointed out how Ben struggled at times and took way too many sacks. When Lefty replaced him in the Redskins game the sacks went down and the production went up instantly.

Ben is a beast when he wants to be... however the guy definitely leaves a lot of plays on the field. Given how well our D has played the last 6 years you would think we would have a bunch of games with scores like 27 to 7 or 44 to 10. Our scores are usually 17 to 16 or 28 to 24.

I love Ben's ability to extend plays and this is where he is money... but given the extra opp's he gets due to JH, Troy and DL's schemes (besides last year) we shouldn't be in nailbiters with half the teams we have played. Last year showed us what happens without a damn good D...

Clearly Hehateme, you knows your stuff... but in here if you aren't a Ben supporter or critique his play you won't win many fans. I criticze the QB of our team because he handles the ball the most... but if you don't bow down to his greatness you will feel the wrath. I like Ben, when he is on point he is damn good but he isnt above criticism.

HeHateMe
05-04-2010, 12:41 PM
Hehateme... I don't hate you, I appreciate your knowledge but your approach is very hard for the Steeler faithful to digest.

I can understand your frustration... when I stopped bashing BA and said he was here to stay becase Ben loves him I was called all sorts of names as well. I also pointed out how Ben struggled at times and took way too many sacks. When Lefty replaced him in the Redskins game the sacks went down and the production went up instantly.

Ben is a beast when he wants to be... however the guy definitely leaves a lot of plays on the field. Given how well our D has played the last 6 years you would think we would have a bunch of games with scores like 27 to 7 or 44 to 10. Our scores are usually 17 to 16 or 28 to 24.

I love Ben's ability to extend plays and this is where he is money... but given the extra opp's he gets due to JH, Troy and DL's schemes (besides last year) we shouldn't be in nailbiters with half the teams we have played. Last year showed us what happens without a damn good D...

Clearly Hehateme, you knows your stuff... but in here if you aren't a Ben supporter or critique his play you won't win many fans. I criticze the QB of our team because he handles the ball the most... but if you don't bow down to his greatness you will feel the wrath. I like Ben, when he is on point he is damn good but he isnt above criticism.

I appreciate the advice sir. Thank you. I agree with your assessment of Ben 100%
If Marino, Brees, Brady, Manning, Warner or Favre had our D we would BLOW teams out. You are correct Ben can play "WHEN HE WANTS TO" that's my main beef with the guy. He cheats us for most of the game.

WoodleyofTroy
05-04-2010, 12:47 PM
I appreciate the advice sir. Thank you. I agree with your assessment of Ben 100%
If Marino, Brees, Brady, Manning, Warner or Favre had our D we would BLOW teams out. You are correct Ben can play "WHEN HE WANTS TO" that's my main beef with the guy. He cheats us for most of the game.

Peyton sure looked good throwing that game winning TD to the wrong team.

It's about winning, not stats buddy.

Our Defense would be winded if Brees came out and threw a TD 10 seconds in. And you would see 35-35 scores, just like in New Orleans.

Ben is the perfect fit for Steelers football. Which is why we win.

SS Laser
05-04-2010, 01:06 PM
Peyton sure looked good throwing that game winning TD to the wrong team.

It's about winning, not stats buddy.

:Agree

Our Defense would be winded if Brees came out and threw a TD 10 seconds in. And you would see 35-35 scores, just like in New Orleans.

Ben is the perfect fit for Steelers football. Which is why we win.[/quote]

THERE IT IS! With Ben we win 2 superbowls! Before he was here NONE!

Ben is not the greatest QB. But we win with him.

HeHateMe
05-04-2010, 01:19 PM
I appreciate the advice sir. Thank you. I agree with your assessment of Ben 100%
If Marino, Brees, Brady, Manning, Warner or Favre had our D we would BLOW teams out. You are correct Ben can play "WHEN HE WANTS TO" that's my main beef with the guy. He cheats us for most of the game.

Peyton sure looked good throwing that game winning TD to the wrong team.

It's about winning, not stats buddy.

Our Defense would be winded if Brees came out and threw a TD 10 seconds in. And you would see 35-35 scores, just like in New Orleans.

Ben is the perfect fit for Steelers football. Which is why we win.
Like Ben doesnt throw pick six's. See Rashean Mathis. Last time Ben faced Manning WHO threw a pick 6? It was Ben. Peyton is a Hall of Famer. Ben is not. Peyton is better than Ben despite what happened in SB44. Its about winning? Who has won the most games in the millenium? Its Manning. Ben is on a better team so he has more SB wins. By your logice Marino isnt any good due to not winning any SB's. Ben is better than Marino? Steve Young? Just because he has more rings? TOO FUNNY. Our Defense would love an efficient qb like Brees on our team.

HeHateMe
05-04-2010, 01:23 PM
Peyton sure looked good throwing that game winning TD to the wrong team.

It's about winning, not stats buddy.

:Agree

Our Defense would be winded if Brees came out and threw a TD 10 seconds in. And you would see 35-35 scores, just like in New Orleans.

Ben is the perfect fit for Steelers football. Which is why we win.

THERE IT IS! With Ben we win 2 superbowls! Before he was here NONE!

Ben is not the greatest QB. But we win with him.[/quote]
We also win with Batch, Leftwich and KORDELL. Kordell won 40 plus games for us and HE IS A BUM. What does that tell you? It tells me that you don't need much from the qb to win for the GREAT STEELERS. If you dont believe that see SB40 where the Qb played like *ss and we still won GOING AWAY. Ben has ZERO SB MVPs, No league MVP's and only ONE Pro Bowl selection is his career. One TEAM MVP, he is HARDLY the reason we win. Is he an important piece? YES. But not the PRIMARY piece. Take Manning off of the Colts and they suck. WATCH the Steelers continue success during the suspension. SORRY.

frankthetank1
05-04-2010, 01:42 PM
Hehateme... I don't hate you, I appreciate your knowledge but your approach is very hard for the Steeler faithful to digest.

I can understand your frustration... when I stopped bashing BA and said he was here to stay becase Ben loves him I was called all sorts of names as well. I also pointed out how Ben struggled at times and took way too many sacks. When Lefty replaced him in the Redskins game the sacks went down and the production went up instantly.

Ben is a beast when he wants to be... however the guy definitely leaves a lot of plays on the field. Given how well our D has played the last 6 years you would think we would have a bunch of games with scores like 27 to 7 or 44 to 10. Our scores are usually 17 to 16 or 28 to 24.

I love Ben's ability to extend plays and this is where he is money... but given the extra opp's he gets due to JH, Troy and DL's schemes (besides last year) we shouldn't be in nailbiters with half the teams we have played. Last year showed us what happens without a damn good D...

Clearly Hehateme, you knows your stuff... but in here if you aren't a Ben supporter or critique his play you won't win many fans. I criticze the QB of our team because he handles the ball the most... but if you don't bow down to his greatness you will feel the wrath. I like Ben, when he is on point he is damn good but he isnt above criticism.

I appreciate the advice sir. Thank you. I agree with your assessment of Ben 100%
If Marino, Brees, Brady, Manning, Warner or Favre had our D we would BLOW teams out. You are correct Ben can play "WHEN HE WANTS TO" that's my main beef with the guy. He cheats us for most of the game.

the saints d was better than ours last season so if we had brees we would of blown out no one last season. what are you talking about? did you see the defense last year in the second half? ben was the reason we were 8-8? your bias is humorous to me, please keep up the slanted opinions. feltdizz critizies ben and he is pretty accurate but at least he gives credit when it is due. i criticize ben plenty as well. i dont like how he lives his personal life either but people do eff up sometimes. everyone deserves redemption. also brady's pats teams that won sb's had great defenses. farve did too. you should of just stuck with marino and manning although peyton isnt as clutch as ben is and that is a fact not opinion

HeHateMe
05-04-2010, 01:51 PM
That Defense is the best part of our team. What do you think strikes fear in opposing teams? Its the DEFENSE. The defense was tired in the 2nd half. We won Time of Possession in most games NOT because of long drives but because of EXTRA opportunities given to our offense by our defense. We even won TOP vs the Ravens with DIXON. Was Dixon leading long drives? NO. It was our defense giving the offense extra possessions due to being stingy. By the 4th quarter they are tired. Isnt it IRONIC that all breakdowns came in the fourth qtr. Coincidence? I give Ben credit. WHO did I say was our best qb? I said it was Ben. Have I EVER called Ben a bum? NO I HAVENT. Dont I say Ben is GOOD. Yes I did OVER AND OVER. I just don't give Ben the label of GREAT. Anyone that does that is a Homer and a liar. Sorry.

frankthetank1
05-04-2010, 01:59 PM
That Defense is the best part of our team. What do you think strikes fear in opposing teams? Its the DEFENSE. The defense was tired in the 2nd half. We won Time of Possession in most games NOT because of long drives but because of EXTRA opportunities given to our offense by our defense. We even won TOP vs the Ravens with DIXON. Was Dixon leading long drives? NO. It was our defense giving the offense extra possessions due to being stingy. By the 4th quarter they are tired. Isnt it IRONIC that all breakdowns came in the fourth qtr. Coincidence? I give Ben credit. WHO did I say was our best qb? I said it was Ben. Have I EVER called Ben a bum? NO I HAVENT. Dont I say Ben is GOOD. Yes I did OVER AND OVER. I just don't give Ben the label of GREAT. Anyone that does that is a Homer and a liar. Sorry.

the ravens offense in the regular season wasnt all that great. they ran the ball well but were not a threat to pass on many teams. d mason was there best weapon in the passing game, that says a lot. the steelers run defense was excellent and it always is, the pass d stunk especially in the 2nd half. they were tired because they are old. the running game was better but not great especially at clock management. ben was a lot of the reason the offense put up good numbers. maybe in nfl history ben isnt GREAT yet. that is fair, but in today's nfl he is elite like it or not. btw i have never seen any post of yours except for this one that you ever gave ben any credit. i must of missed some my bad. a good example of what i am talking about is the jax playoff game in 07 when ben stunk it up in the first half. did you not watch the second half where he lead the offense in a comeback? that must of killed you huh? did ben miss any tackles on david gerrard late in the 4th qtr?

feltdizz
05-04-2010, 03:24 PM
here is the thing though frank... in the second half the D was amazing and had 2 INT's on a QB who rarely if ever threw INT's up to that point in his career.

Ben did have an amazing second half but there are times when Ben's amazing comebacks are due to his amazingly frustrating 2 Quarters of football after tearing it up in the first quarter. Ben is great for NFL drama... he is great for ratings.. but honestly if I was a coach I'm not sure I could handle the stress.

The guy refused to check down quickly (until last year) and would take a sack in a heartbeat instead of throwing the ball away. I'm not talking about OL breakdown sacks. 50 and 40+ sack seasons don't happen to QB's unless they don't mind getting hit.

Now it works more than it doesn't when you look at the win column.. but as far as efficiency and helping the D.. not so much.

It's funny because when some suggest Ben take less hits they say "it's what makes him great" but every year we see the "concussion, deer in headlights Ben" for 2 games that we all knew were easy W's.

I love Ben's effe it, get it back attitude but I wonder where he would rank on the elite scale if he traded a little "get sack, get it back 3rd and 15" for a few "field position, checkdown/throw it away keep it 3rd and 4.."

Our TOP was good last year... but with 50 sacks that's 50 times the clock ran like it was a running play. Imagine what a few throw away's but keep it reasonable on 3rd down and move the chains for 3 more plays could have done for us last year?

We also should have run more in the red zone... but hindsite is 20/20.

I like Ben on the field.. but he won't be on the field for long if he keeps getting hit so much.

feltdizz
05-04-2010, 03:28 PM
That Defense is the best part of our team. What do you think strikes fear in opposing teams? Its the DEFENSE. The defense was tired in the 2nd half. We won Time of Possession in most games NOT because of long drives but because of EXTRA opportunities given to our offense by our defense. We even won TOP vs the Ravens with DIXON. Was Dixon leading long drives? NO. It was our defense giving the offense extra possessions due to being stingy. By the 4th quarter they are tired. Isnt it IRONIC that all breakdowns came in the fourth qtr. Coincidence? I give Ben credit. WHO did I say was our best qb? I said it was Ben. Have I EVER called Ben a bum? NO I HAVENT. Dont I say Ben is GOOD. Yes I did OVER AND OVER. I just don't give Ben the label of GREAT. Anyone that does that is a Homer and a liar. Sorry.

the ravens offense in the regular season wasnt all that great. they ran the ball well but were not a threat to pass on many teams. d mason was there best weapon in the passing game, that says a lot. the steelers run defense was excellent and it always is, the pass d stunk especially in the 2nd half. they were tired because they are old. the running game was better but not great especially at clock management. ben was a lot of the reason the offense put up good numbers. maybe in nfl history ben isnt GREAT yet. that is fair, but in today's nfl he is elite like it or not. btw i have never seen any post of yours except for this one that you ever gave ben any credit. i must of missed some my bad. a good example of what i am talking about is the jax playoff game in 07 when ben stunk it up in the first half. did you not watch the second half where he lead the offense in a comeback? that must of killed you huh? did ben miss any tackles on david gerrard late in the 4th qtr?

One other thing... if Flacco and Sanchez made 2 or 3 plays in their Championship games would they be on the path to being elite or would we call them "game managers?"

I don't mind the game manager tag because it means the QB is winning... but I do wonder with rookies who weren't said to be so "great" making it to the AFC championship the last 2 years if the 2004 Whiz/Ben model(minus the amazing 13-0 record of course) will continue to be copied.

HeHateMe
05-04-2010, 06:03 PM
That Defense is the best part of our team. What do you think strikes fear in opposing teams? Its the DEFENSE. The defense was tired in the 2nd half. We won Time of Possession in most games NOT because of long drives but because of EXTRA opportunities given to our offense by our defense. We even won TOP vs the Ravens with DIXON. Was Dixon leading long drives? NO. It was our defense giving the offense extra possessions due to being stingy. By the 4th quarter they are tired. Isnt it IRONIC that all breakdowns came in the fourth qtr. Coincidence? I give Ben credit. WHO did I say was our best qb? I said it was Ben. Have I EVER called Ben a bum? NO I HAVENT. Dont I say Ben is GOOD. Yes I did OVER AND OVER. I just don't give Ben the label of GREAT. Anyone that does that is a Homer and a liar. Sorry.

the ravens offense in the regular season wasnt all that great. they ran the ball well but were not a threat to pass on many teams. d mason was there best weapon in the passing game, that says a lot. the steelers run defense was excellent and it always is, the pass d stunk especially in the 2nd half. they were tired because they are old. the running game was better but not great especially at clock management. ben was a lot of the reason the offense put up good numbers. maybe in nfl history ben isnt GREAT yet. that is fair, but in today's nfl he is elite like it or not. btw i have never seen any post of yours except for this one that you ever gave ben any credit. i must of missed some my bad. a good example of what i am talking about is the jax playoff game in 07 when ben stunk it up in the first half. did you not watch the second half where he lead the offense in a comeback? that must of killed you huh? did ben miss any tackles on david gerrard late in the 4th qtr?
Why would it kill me? I'm a Steeler fan. What killed me is HOW HE PLAYED early. How Rashean was his favorite wr. Thats what killed me. Again, that game is a great example of my beef with Ben. He PLAYS WELL WHEN HE WANTS TO. Ben is the reason that we got down that big so you blame the defense for the 4th and 1 missed taclkle? CLASSIC. Ben had 4 ints and 1 fumble but it was the defense huh? Again, CLASSIC

HeHateMe
05-04-2010, 06:17 PM
here is the thing though frank... in the second half the D was amazing and had 2 INT's on a QB who rarely if ever threw INT's up to that point in his career.

Ben did have an amazing second half but there are times when Ben's amazing comebacks are due to his amazingly frustrating 2 Quarters of football after tearing it up in the first quarter. Ben is great for NFL drama... he is great for ratings.. but honestly if I was a coach I'm not sure I could handle the stress.

The guy refused to check down quickly (until last year) and would take a sack in a heartbeat instead of throwing the ball away. I'm not talking about OL breakdown sacks. 50 and 40+ sack seasons don't happen to QB's unless they don't mind getting hit.

Now it works more than it doesn't when you look at the win column.. but as far as efficiency and helping the D.. not so much.

It's funny because when some suggest Ben take less hits they say "it's what makes him great" but every year we see the "concussion, deer in headlights Ben" for 2 games that we all knew were easy W's.

I love Ben's effe it, get it back attitude but I wonder where he would rank on the elite scale if he traded a little "get sack, get it back 3rd and 15" for a few "field position, checkdown/throw it away keep it 3rd and 4.."

Our TOP was good last year... but with 50 sacks that's 50 times the clock ran like it was a running play. Imagine what a few throw away's but keep it reasonable on 3rd down and move the chains for 3 more plays could have done for us last year?

We also should have run more in the red zone... but hindsite is 20/20.

I like Ben on the field.. but he won't be on the field for long if he keeps getting hit so much.
:Beer

NW Steeler
05-04-2010, 06:55 PM
Ok, we get it. Ben is not a great QB. He drives us nuts. I know he intentionally plays like sh!t for 2 quarters out of a game so that he can be a hero and make a dramatic comeback. He doesn't put up Playstation numbers. All I know is that between Bradshaw and Ben we have had some great defensive teams along with #1 rushing offenses and once we got to the playoffs (and 1 SB)we always fell short, MOSTLY DUE TO QB PLAY. Ben came and we win two SB's. Yes, the team won them. Great defense, good coaching, clutch QB play. But we don't win those two SB's without Ben. He doesn't have to be great all of the time, just when it counts the most. I know he isn't perfect as a player. He hasn't come through in every opportunity that he has been given. But he has come through enough to make me happy as a fan. I'm glad he is our QB.

hawaiiansteel
05-04-2010, 07:05 PM
Ok, we get it. Ben is not a great QB. He drives us nuts. I know he intentionally plays like sh!t for 2 quarters out of a game so that he can be a hero and make a dramatic comeback. He doesn't put up Playstation numbers. All I know is that between Bradshaw and Ben we have had some great defensive teams along with #1 rushing offenses and once we got to the playoffs (and 1 SB)we always fell short, MOSTLY DUE TO QB PLAY. Ben came and we win two SB's. Yes, the team won them. Great defense, good coaching, clutch QB play. But we don't win those two SB's without Ben. He doesn't have to be great all of the time, just when it counts the most. I know he isn't perfect as a player. He hasn't come through in every opportunity that he has been given. But he has come through enough to make me happy as a fan. I'm glad he is our QB.


me too, Ben is clutch! :tt2

http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/PHO/AAGX074_8x10-2006ImaculateTackle~Ben-Roethlisberger-Posters.jpghttp://www.itsalreadysigned4u.com/shop/media/images/product_xlarge/aaa-20160.jpg

HeHateMe
05-04-2010, 07:11 PM
Ok, we get it. Ben is not a great QB. He drives us nuts. I know he intentionally plays like sh!t for 2 quarters out of a game so that he can be a hero and make a dramatic comeback. He doesn't put up Playstation numbers. All I know is that between Bradshaw and Ben we have had some great defensive teams along with #1 rushing offenses and once we got to the playoffs (and 1 SB)we always fell short, MOSTLY DUE TO QB PLAY. Ben came and we win two SB's. Yes, the team won them. Great defense, good coaching, clutch QB play. But we don't win those two SB's without Ben. He doesn't have to be great all of the time, just when it counts the most. I know he isn't perfect as a player. He hasn't come through in every opportunity that he has been given. But he has come through enough to make me happy as a fan. I'm glad he is our QB.
The thing is BEN DOESNT CARE. Why did Peezy call him out? For leaving 1st and showing up last. Is that someone who cares? Is that a leader? Ben had early success, got the big head and got out of control. This is the same tired slogan by all Ben Lovers "Why didnt we win the SB until we got Ben". In 05 we played the SUCKY Seahawks thats why. IF we played a better team we lose. Dindt Ben play WORSE than Neil O'donnell? He sure did! The only difference is that Neil played against the COWBOYS with Aikman, Emmitt and Irvin and WE STILL ALMOST WON. We were FORTUNATE to be playing the Seahawks in 05. Had that been the Eagles we lose just like we did with Neil. I don't see how you guys can say that a Qb who has thrown ONE TD pass and THREE ints in the Super Bowls is the REASON we have won. Those are Brad Johnson, Trent Dilfer numbers LOL
So if Ben gets credit for the SBs then who gets the blame for the 9-7 season? Or does Ben just get credit when we win? Terry Bradshaw is the ONLY QB to win Back to Back Super Bowls TWICE. Ben Roethlisberger is the only Qb to win 2 Super Bowls and MISS the playoffs the following season, TWICE. But that is not Ben's fault it is Cowhers, Whiz, Tomlin, Arians and the Defense. Got cha.

HeHateMe
05-04-2010, 07:12 PM
Ok, we get it. Ben is not a great QB. He drives us nuts. I know he intentionally plays like sh!t for 2 quarters out of a game so that he can be a hero and make a dramatic comeback. He doesn't put up Playstation numbers. All I know is that between Bradshaw and Ben we have had some great defensive teams along with #1 rushing offenses and once we got to the playoffs (and 1 SB)we always fell short, MOSTLY DUE TO QB PLAY. Ben came and we win two SB's. Yes, the team won them. Great defense, good coaching, clutch QB play. But we don't win those two SB's without Ben. He doesn't have to be great all of the time, just when it counts the most. I know he isn't perfect as a player. He hasn't come through in every opportunity that he has been given. But he has come through enough to make me happy as a fan. I'm glad he is our QB.


me too, Ben is clutch! :tt2

http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/PHO/AAGX074_8x10-2006ImaculateTackle~Ben-Roethlisberger-Posters.jpghttp://www.itsalreadysigned4u.com/shop/media/images/product_xlarge/aaa-20160.jpg
The Bengals site has sigs with him Clutching women. Its very graphic so be careful

hawaiiansteel
05-05-2010, 01:09 AM
The Bengals site has sigs with Ben Clutching women. Its very graphic so be careful



The Bengals? Oh, you mean the team that is about to sign Pacman Jones to a contract? Maybe the Bengals should change their Tiger Stripes to Prison Stripes with all of the criminals they have had on their teams.


Pacman Jones Criminal Record


Adam ‘Pacman’ Jones is the poster child for everything that is wrong with the NFL. NFL teams continue to draft thugs and convicts without regarding for their moral character or criminal record. NFL commissioner Roger Goodell is considering a proposal where NFL players will be kicked out of the league after three strikes.

Here is a rap sheet look at all of Pacman’s brushes with the law since joining the NFL’s Tennessee Titans:

July 13, 2005- Arrested and charged with assault and felony vandalism after a nightclub altercation. This began Pacman Jones NFL rap sheet. He already had a lengthy one from high school and college.

September 5, 2005- Adam was invited to attend the Nashville Sports Council Kickoff Luncheon. Jones went off on a verbal tirade while being told to wait for his car after the event. He then refused to tip the valet service.

October 2005- State of West Virginia filed a petition stating that Jones had not been contacting his probation officer and that he had not reported his July 2005 arrest. The judge extended the probation for just 90 days.

March 23, 2006- Charged with marijuana possession in Fayetteville, Georgia. He went on to claim that he knew how to beat the NFL’s drug test.

August 25, 2006- Arrested for disorderly conduct and public intoxication after being ordered by the cops to leave a Murfreesboro night club several times. Jones claimed a woman stole his wallet. The woman claimed that Jones spat on her. The judge in the case gave Pacman six months probation and told him to stay away from the club.

October 26, 2006- Jones was issued a citation for misdemeanor assault after a female student from Tennessee State University claimed that Jones spit in her face at a Nashville night club.

Feburary 19, 2007- The facts are disputed and no charges have been made yet, but Jones was in the middle of a fight and shooting at a strip club in Las Vegas that left one man paralyzed and two more wounded. The fight broke out after Jones showered strippers on stage with $81,000 dollars. The club owner claims Jones was beating a strippers head against the bar while claiming to kill one of the club’s employees.

January 3, 2008- Pacman is accused of punching Wanda S. Jackson in the face at an Atlanta strip club called the Body Tap Strip Club. Jackson says Jones reached over the counter and sucker punched her in her left eye.

October 8, 2008- Jones got into an alcohol related incident which turned into a physical confrontation with bodyguards that had been assigned to him by the Dallas Cowboys. NFL commissioner Roger Goodell has suspended Jones indefinitely for the second time in his NFL career.

The above time line doesn’t include his sentence of one year in prison for a bar fight in Morgantown, West Virginia while in college.

http://bumpshack.com/2007/03/02/pacman- ... al-record/ (http://bumpshack.com/2007/03/02/pacman-jones-criminal-record/)




http://bumpshack.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/02/pacman_jones.jpg

NW Steeler
05-05-2010, 01:52 AM
Ok, we get it. Ben is not a great QB. He drives us nuts. I know he intentionally plays like sh!t for 2 quarters out of a game so that he can be a hero and make a dramatic comeback. He doesn't put up Playstation numbers. All I know is that between Bradshaw and Ben we have had some great defensive teams along with #1 rushing offenses and once we got to the playoffs (and 1 SB)we always fell short, MOSTLY DUE TO QB PLAY. Ben came and we win two SB's. Yes, the team won them. Great defense, good coaching, clutch QB play. But we don't win those two SB's without Ben. He doesn't have to be great all of the time, just when it counts the most. I know he isn't perfect as a player. He hasn't come through in every opportunity that he has been given. But he has come through enough to make me happy as a fan. I'm glad he is our QB.
The thing is BEN DOESNT CARE. Why did Peezy call him out? For leaving 1st and showing up last. Is that someone who cares? Is that a leader? Ben had early success, got the big head and got out of control. This is the same tired slogan by all Ben Lovers "Why didnt we win the SB until we got Ben". In 05 we played the SUCKY Seahawks thats why. IF we played a better team we lose. Dindt Ben play WORSE than Neil O'donnell? He sure did! The only difference is that Neil played against the COWBOYS with Aikman, Emmitt and Irvin and WE STILL ALMOST WON. We were FORTUNATE to be playing the Seahawks in 05. Had that been the Eagles we lose just like we did with Neil. I don't see how you guys can say that a Qb who has thrown ONE TD pass and THREE ints in the Super Bowls is the REASON we have won. Those are Brad Johnson, Trent Dilfer numbers LOL
So if Ben gets credit for the SBs then who gets the blame for the 9-7 season? Or does Ben just get credit when we win? Terry Bradshaw is the ONLY QB to win Back to Back Super Bowls TWICE. Ben Roethlisberger is the only Qb to win 2 Super Bowls and MISS the playoffs the following season, TWICE. But that is not Ben's fault it is Cowhers, Whiz, Tomlin, Arians and the Defense. Got cha.

You follow some valid points in some of your posts with ridiculous arguments. Each SB stands on it's own. Comparing SB XXX and XL makes no sense. The facts are what they are. We didn't win without Ben. We didn't win with O'Donnell. We didn't win with Kordell. We didn't win with Maddox. If you are comparing our teams to the ones that Johnson and Dilfer payed on, that is ridiculous as well. Neither one of those guys would have won a SB with the Steelers. We had some VERY good teams with O'Donnell and Stewart both, and they couldn't do it. We get it. You don't think Ben is a franchise QB. But I watched this team flounder in the playoffs for 25 years until Ben came along. Analyze it however you want, the fact remains is that we have the hardware with Ben at the helm. Apparently some of us think he is more responsible for that hardware than you do. Like I said, it's ok, everyone has an opinion. I'm done arguing about it. Maybe.

HeHateMe
05-05-2010, 08:14 AM
The Bengals site has sigs with Ben Clutching women. Its very graphic so be careful



The Bengals? Oh, you mean the team that is about to sign Pacman Jones to a contract? Maybe the Bengals should change their Tiger Stripes to Prison Stripes with all of the criminals they have had on their teams.


Pacman Jones Criminal Record


Adam ‘Pacman’ Jones is the poster child for everything that is wrong with the NFL. NFL teams continue to draft thugs and convicts without regarding for their moral character or criminal record. NFL commissioner Roger Goodell is considering a proposal where NFL players will be kicked out of the league after three strikes.

Here is a rap sheet look at all of Pacman’s brushes with the law since joining the NFL’s Tennessee Titans:

July 13, 2005- Arrested and charged with assault and felony vandalism after a nightclub altercation. This began Pacman Jones NFL rap sheet. He already had a lengthy one from high school and college.

September 5, 2005- Adam was invited to attend the Nashville Sports Council Kickoff Luncheon. Jones went off on a verbal tirade while being told to wait for his car after the event. He then refused to tip the valet service.

October 2005- State of West Virginia filed a petition stating that Jones had not been contacting his probation officer and that he had not reported his July 2005 arrest. The judge extended the probation for just 90 days.

March 23, 2006- Charged with marijuana possession in Fayetteville, Georgia. He went on to claim that he knew how to beat the NFL’s drug test.

August 25, 2006- Arrested for disorderly conduct and public intoxication after being ordered by the cops to leave a Murfreesboro night club several times. Jones claimed a woman stole his wallet. The woman claimed that Jones spat on her. The judge in the case gave Pacman six months probation and told him to stay away from the club.

October 26, 2006- Jones was issued a citation for misdemeanor assault after a female student from Tennessee State University claimed that Jones spit in her face at a Nashville night club.

Feburary 19, 2007- The facts are disputed and no charges have been made yet, but Jones was in the middle of a fight and shooting at a strip club in Las Vegas that left one man paralyzed and two more wounded. The fight broke out after Jones showered strippers on stage with $81,000 dollars. The club owner claims Jones was beating a strippers head against the bar while claiming to kill one of the club’s employees.

January 3, 2008- Pacman is accused of punching Wanda S. Jackson in the face at an Atlanta strip club called the Body Tap Strip Club. Jackson says Jones reached over the counter and sucker punched her in her left eye.

October 8, 2008- Jones got into an alcohol related incident which turned into a physical confrontation with bodyguards that had been assigned to him by the Dallas Cowboys. NFL commissioner Roger Goodell has suspended Jones indefinitely for the second time in his NFL career.

The above time line doesn’t include his sentence of one year in prison for a bar fight in Morgantown, West Virginia while in college.

http://bumpshack.com/2007/03/02/pacman- ... al-record/ (http://bumpshack.com/2007/03/02/pacman-jones-criminal-record/)




http://bumpshack.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/02/pacman_jones.jpg

At the same time Pacman can go into a bar or a club and be the MAN. When Ben Roethlisberger shows up everyone starts whispering and pointing. The difference between rape allegations and Pacmans. Not condoning Pacmans actions. Hes a bad character guy and I would NOT want him on my team for the same things I criticize Ben for. I find it IRONIC that you can find fault in Pacman but excuse Ben. TOO FUNNY
I know I know "Ben wasnt charged with anything" LOL. Poor unlucky Ben - All these women are just singling him out and lying on him. WHO has that kind of luck? Only Ben.
LOL

HeHateMe
05-05-2010, 08:35 AM
[quote="NW Steeler":2vkgw21k]Ok, we get it. Ben is not a great QB. He drives us nuts. I know he intentionally plays like sh!t for 2 quarters out of a game so that he can be a hero and make a dramatic comeback. He doesn't put up Playstation numbers. All I know is that between Bradshaw and Ben we have had some great defensive teams along with #1 rushing offenses and once we got to the playoffs (and 1 SB)we always fell short, MOSTLY DUE TO QB PLAY. Ben came and we win two SB's. Yes, the team won them. Great defense, good coaching, clutch QB play. But we don't win those two SB's without Ben. He doesn't have to be great all of the time, just when it counts the most. I know he isn't perfect as a player. He hasn't come through in every opportunity that he has been given. But he has come through enough to make me happy as a fan. I'm glad he is our QB.
The thing is BEN DOESNT CARE. Why did Peezy call him out? For leaving 1st and showing up last. Is that someone who cares? Is that a leader? Ben had early success, got the big head and got out of control. This is the same tired slogan by all Ben Lovers "Why didnt we win the SB until we got Ben". In 05 we played the SUCKY Seahawks thats why. IF we played a better team we lose. Dindt Ben play WORSE than Neil O'donnell? He sure did! The only difference is that Neil played against the COWBOYS with Aikman, Emmitt and Irvin and WE STILL ALMOST WON. We were FORTUNATE to be playing the Seahawks in 05. Had that been the Eagles we lose just like we did with Neil. I don't see how you guys can say that a Qb who has thrown ONE TD pass and THREE ints in the Super Bowls is the REASON we have won. Those are Brad Johnson, Trent Dilfer numbers LOL
So if Ben gets credit for the SBs then who gets the blame for the 9-7 season? Or does Ben just get credit when we win? Terry Bradshaw is the ONLY QB to win Back to Back Super Bowls TWICE. Ben Roethlisberger is the only Qb to win 2 Super Bowls and MISS the playoffs the following season, TWICE. But that is not Ben's fault it is Cowhers, Whiz, Tomlin, Arians and the Defense. Got cha.

You follow some valid points in some of your posts with ridiculous arguments. Each SB stands on it's own. Comparing SB XXX and XL makes no sense. The facts are what they are. We didn't win without Ben. We didn't win with O'Donnell. We didn't win with Kordell. We didn't win with Maddox. If you are comparing our teams to the ones that Johnson and Dilfer payed on, that is ridiculous as well. Neither one of those guys would have won a SB with the Steelers. We had some VERY good teams with O'Donnell and Stewart both, and they couldn't do it. We get it. You don't think Ben is a franchise QB. But I watched this team flounder in the playoffs for 25 years until Ben came along. Analyze it however you want, the fact remains is that we have the hardware with Ben at the helm. Apparently some of us think he is more responsible for that hardware than you do. Like I said, it's ok, everyone has an opinion. I'm done arguing about it. Maybe.[/quote:2vkgw21k]

Comparing the SB DOES make sense. WHO do you think is a tougher opponent, who O'donnell played against or who Ben played against? The Cowhoys were a mini DYNASTY, the Seahawks were Bums. Emmitt, Aikman, Irvin, Deion Sanders and possibly Larry Allen will ALL be Hall of Famers (emmith, aikman and irvin are). How many Hall of Famers will come off of that Seahawk team? The fact is the SEAHAWKS SUCK and that Cowboy team was one of the best in NFL history. You say we didnt win with O'donnell, Kordell etc NOR did we win with Ben. Did Ben lead us to SB 40 win? Tell the truth. WE WON IN SPITE OF BEN. That is a FACT. Neil O'donnell was an efficient qb UNTIL the SB, so all of his earlier efficiency meant squat. I said that because I KNOW you're going to say "Ben played well in the games leading up to the SB". What would that have meant had we lost? NOTHING. Thanks to Willies long run and ARE pass to Hines or we may have lost. FACT. I'm not comparing our teams to Johnson and Dilfers, If I was I would have said so. I am comparing Ben's stats to the likes of Johnson and Dilfer (JOURNEYMAN STATS) Get it?
I watched this team flounder for 25 years as well. Been a Steeler fan since 74. But I have the intelligence to understand that BEN is not the sole reason we have won 2SBs. Its a combination of talent and CIRCUMSTANCES that allowed it to happen. Ben has NO LEAGUE MVPS, ONE PRO BOWL, NO SB MVPS, ONE TEAM MVP and you are trying to tell me HE IS THE PRIMARY REASON WE HAVE WON? Laughable. Now if we were Colt fans and you said "Manning is the reason we win" I would be a fool to try to refute that. Brees is the reason the Saints are good. Warner is the reason the Cards/Rams were good. Faver is the reason the Packers/Vikes are good. Marino-Dolphins. Montana/9ers/Young-9ers. Brady-Pats etc But IF you take Ben off of the Steelers we will still be good. We went 13-3 with A BUM LIKE KORDELL. What does that tell you? IT TELLS ME THE STEELERS ARE GOOD- NOT KORDELL. We lost in the playoffs due to CONSERVATISM. Ben has won 2 SBs, I acknowledge that. You are saying HE is the reason for those wins. Ok lets say that is true. So WHO is the blame for the failures the other 4 years? AFCCG in 04? Ben was a rookie. You give him credit for the great winning record so who lost that game vs the Pats? Do tell? In 06 who caused us to go 8-8? What is your excuse? The WRECK? Had Ben listened to Cowher would it had happened? Again, who put HIMSELF over the TEAM? Do tell? In 07 why did we lose to the Jags? WHO had FIVE turnovers? In 08 we won with our QB committing TWENTY THREE turnovers, WHO DOES THAT? In 09 we went 9-7 who's fault was that? The defense? or the offenses inability to get TDs in the redzone (23rd in the league). Again, Ben is a GOOD Qb but he is NOT this great clutch qb that you guys are trying to portray. Ben has ONE TD pass in two SB games with THREE INT's. Yeah, HE is the reason we have won. LOL

frankthetank1
05-05-2010, 10:44 AM
The Bengals site has sigs with Ben Clutching women. Its very graphic so be careful



The Bengals? Oh, you mean the team that is about to sign Pacman Jones to a contract? Maybe the Bengals should change their Tiger Stripes to Prison Stripes with all of the criminals they have had on their teams.


Pacman Jones Criminal Record


Adam ‘Pacman’ Jones is the poster child for everything that is wrong with the NFL. NFL teams continue to draft thugs and convicts without regarding for their moral character or criminal record. NFL commissioner Roger Goodell is considering a proposal where NFL players will be kicked out of the league after three strikes.

Here is a rap sheet look at all of Pacman’s brushes with the law since joining the NFL’s Tennessee Titans:

July 13, 2005- Arrested and charged with assault and felony vandalism after a nightclub altercation. This began Pacman Jones NFL rap sheet. He already had a lengthy one from high school and college.

September 5, 2005- Adam was invited to attend the Nashville Sports Council Kickoff Luncheon. Jones went off on a verbal tirade while being told to wait for his car after the event. He then refused to tip the valet service.

October 2005- State of West Virginia filed a petition stating that Jones had not been contacting his probation officer and that he had not reported his July 2005 arrest. The judge extended the probation for just 90 days.

March 23, 2006- Charged with marijuana possession in Fayetteville, Georgia. He went on to claim that he knew how to beat the NFL’s drug test.

August 25, 2006- Arrested for disorderly conduct and public intoxication after being ordered by the cops to leave a Murfreesboro night club several times. Jones claimed a woman stole his wallet. The woman claimed that Jones spat on her. The judge in the case gave Pacman six months probation and told him to stay away from the club.

October 26, 2006- Jones was issued a citation for misdemeanor assault after a female student from Tennessee State University claimed that Jones spit in her face at a Nashville night club.

Feburary 19, 2007- The facts are disputed and no charges have been made yet, but Jones was in the middle of a fight and shooting at a strip club in Las Vegas that left one man paralyzed and two more wounded. The fight broke out after Jones showered strippers on stage with $81,000 dollars. The club owner claims Jones was beating a strippers head against the bar while claiming to kill one of the club’s employees.

January 3, 2008- Pacman is accused of punching Wanda S. Jackson in the face at an Atlanta strip club called the Body Tap Strip Club. Jackson says Jones reached over the counter and sucker punched her in her left eye.

October 8, 2008- Jones got into an alcohol related incident which turned into a physical confrontation with bodyguards that had been assigned to him by the Dallas Cowboys. NFL commissioner Roger Goodell has suspended Jones indefinitely for the second time in his NFL career.

The above time line doesn’t include his sentence of one year in prison for a bar fight in Morgantown, West Virginia while in college.

http://bumpshack.com/2007/03/02/pacman- ... al-record/ (http://bumpshack.com/2007/03/02/pacman-jones-criminal-record/)




http://bumpshack.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/02/pacman_jones.jpg

At the same time Pacman can go into a bar or a club and be the MAN. When Ben Roethlisberger shows up everyone starts whispering and pointing. The difference between rape allegations and Pacmans. Not condoning Pacmans actions. Hes a bad character guy and I would NOT want him on my team for the same things I criticize Ben for. I find it IRONIC that you can find fault in Pacman but excuse Ben. TOO FUNNY
I know I know "Ben wasnt charged with anything" LOL. Poor unlucky Ben - All these women are just singling him out and lying on him. WHO has that kind of luck? Only Ben.
LOL

if you cant see the differences in the two then you need some help. ben's actions have never left anyone paralized. ben was at a BAR. Pacman was at a strip club. did ben cause a riot by "making it rain"? it was no rape accusation. IT WAS SEXUAL ASSAULT, and again if you cant see the differences between the two you need some help. Or you could always shut the trap and keep your twisted views to yourself

NW Steeler
05-05-2010, 10:59 AM
No one said that Ben was the sole reason that we won these past 2 SB's. So don't talk about what "intelligence" you have. We have had some great teams, but have LACKED a QB to win it all. He was a piece of the puzzle, yet the most important one. We have not been dominant to the level that we could win with a journeyman QB. If you want to compare SB's, I say we would have won SB XXX with a "seasoned" Ben. O'Donnell definitely was efficient on the way to SB XXX, but he damn near didn't win the AFCC. Ben was great in those 3 road playoff games. Yes, he did suck in that SB. But I, unlike you, will give him credit for getting us there, because he did. I don't care about MVP's and passing titles. I care about Super Bowls. And if you got down off of your soapbox for a minute you would realize that i already said that Ben is not without fault. He has cost us games. But he is also the guy that put us over the top, with a very good team around him...not on his own!

HeHateMe
05-05-2010, 11:47 AM
The Bengals site has sigs with Ben Clutching women. Its very graphic so be careful



The Bengals? Oh, you mean the team that is about to sign Pacman Jones to a contract? Maybe the Bengals should change their Tiger Stripes to Prison Stripes with all of the criminals they have had on their teams.


Pacman Jones Criminal Record


Adam ‘Pacman’ Jones is the poster child for everything that is wrong with the NFL. NFL teams continue to draft thugs and convicts without regarding for their moral character or criminal record. NFL commissioner Roger Goodell is considering a proposal where NFL players will be kicked out of the league after three strikes.

Here is a rap sheet look at all of Pacman’s brushes with the law since joining the NFL’s Tennessee Titans:

July 13, 2005- Arrested and charged with assault and felony vandalism after a nightclub altercation. This began Pacman Jones NFL rap sheet. He already had a lengthy one from high school and college.

September 5, 2005- Adam was invited to attend the Nashville Sports Council Kickoff Luncheon. Jones went off on a verbal tirade while being told to wait for his car after the event. He then refused to tip the valet service.

October 2005- State of West Virginia filed a petition stating that Jones had not been contacting his probation officer and that he had not reported his July 2005 arrest. The judge extended the probation for just 90 days.

March 23, 2006- Charged with marijuana possession in Fayetteville, Georgia. He went on to claim that he knew how to beat the NFL’s drug test.

August 25, 2006- Arrested for disorderly conduct and public intoxication after being ordered by the cops to leave a Murfreesboro night club several times. Jones claimed a woman stole his wallet. The woman claimed that Jones spat on her. The judge in the case gave Pacman six months probation and told him to stay away from the club.

October 26, 2006- Jones was issued a citation for misdemeanor assault after a female student from Tennessee State University claimed that Jones spit in her face at a Nashville night club.

Feburary 19, 2007- The facts are disputed and no charges have been made yet, but Jones was in the middle of a fight and shooting at a strip club in Las Vegas that left one man paralyzed and two more wounded. The fight broke out after Jones showered strippers on stage with $81,000 dollars. The club owner claims Jones was beating a strippers head against the bar while claiming to kill one of the club’s employees.

January 3, 2008- Pacman is accused of punching Wanda S. Jackson in the face at an Atlanta strip club called the Body Tap Strip Club. Jackson says Jones reached over the counter and sucker punched her in her left eye.

October 8, 2008- Jones got into an alcohol related incident which turned into a physical confrontation with bodyguards that had been assigned to him by the Dallas Cowboys. NFL commissioner Roger Goodell has suspended Jones indefinitely for the second time in his NFL career.

The above time line doesn’t include his sentence of one year in prison for a bar fight in Morgantown, West Virginia while in college.

http://bumpshack.com/2007/03/02/pacman- ... al-record/ (http://bumpshack.com/2007/03/02/pacman-jones-criminal-record/)




http://bumpshack.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/02/pacman_jones.jpg

At the same time Pacman can go into a bar or a club and be the MAN. When Ben Roethlisberger shows up everyone starts whispering and pointing. The difference between rape allegations and Pacmans. Not condoning Pacmans actions. Hes a bad character guy and I would NOT want him on my team for the same things I criticize Ben for. I find it IRONIC that you can find fault in Pacman but excuse Ben. TOO FUNNY
I know I know "Ben wasnt charged with anything" LOL. Poor unlucky Ben - All these women are just singling him out and lying on him. WHO has that kind of luck? Only Ben.
LOL

if you cant see the differences in the two then you need some help. ben's actions have never left anyone paralized. ben was at a BAR. Pacman was at a strip club. did ben cause a riot by "making it rain"? it was no rape accusation. IT WAS SEXUAL ASSAULT, and again if you cant see the differences between the two you need some help. Or you could always shut the trap and keep your twisted views to yourself

No bens actions have left two women permanently scarred and a team PERMANENTLY DAMAGED. For the record Pacman NEVER shot the guy, the shooter is in prison as we speak. Blame Pacman for "making in rain", thats all he did. Notice Pacman didn't do any time for "leaving someone paralized" as you say? Ben was investigated for RAPE. Shall I post the transcript so the DA can confirm it for you? Feel free to SHOW ME where the DA said Ben was investigated for Sexual Assault. Sorry, it was RAPE. I know you hate the truth but I swear by it. Sorry

HeHateMe
05-05-2010, 11:56 AM
No one said that Ben was the sole reason that we won these past 2 SB's. So don't talk about what "intelligence" you have. We have had some great teams, but have LACKED a QB to win it all. He was a piece of the puzzle, yet the most important one. We have not been dominant to the level that we could win with a journeyman QB. If you want to compare SB's, I say we would have won SB XXX with a "seasoned" Ben. O'Donnell definitely was efficient on the way to SB XXX, but he damn near didn't win the AFCC. Ben was great in those 3 road playoff games. Yes, he did suck in that SB. But I, unlike you, will give him credit for getting us there, because he did. I don't care about MVP's and passing titles. I care about Super Bowls. And if you got down off of your soapbox for a minute you would realize that i already said that Ben is not without fault. He has cost us games. But he is also the guy that put us over the top, with a very good team around him...not on his own!
Shall I show you COUNTLESS statements that have stated "From bradshaw to Ben we had good teams but we didnt win until Ben came along". See you have said it again (see above lol) IF Ben was the most important piece to the puzzle then HOW did we win SB 40 with LITTLE contribution from him? How were we winning SB 43 17-7 with LITTLE contribution from him? DO EXPLAIN. Ben has had ONE TD pass and THREE ints in TWO SB's. IMPORTANT PIECE? LOL
Now here is where you show your bias. You condemn O'donnell for being efficient leading up to the SB but failing IN the SB. But you give Ben credit for playing well and you disregard his bad SB performance because of his prior games. See the HYPOCRISY? Bottom line is Ben played bad and we STILL won and thats my point. Just like in the FOUR games without Ben we will STILL win and you and all your ben lovers will say is "Well four games is one thing BUT Leftwich/Dixon cant do that a whole season". Then if they do it a whole season and we win #7 the excuse will be. "Ok we won this season but I doubt if they can do it again" It will be just like Tomlin. He doesnt get credit for his SB win and neither will Ben's replacements IF they lead us to one. Why? Because Tomlin is not the desired coach and Leftwich/Dixon is not the desired Qb.

NW Steeler
05-05-2010, 12:06 PM
You need therapy.

HeHateMe
05-05-2010, 12:08 PM
You need therapy.
For what? Being a Factologist?

HeHateMe
05-05-2010, 12:10 PM
You need therapy.
Can I ask what the NW stands for?

NW Steeler
05-05-2010, 12:17 PM
Northwest

RuthlessBurgher
05-05-2010, 12:18 PM
You need therapy.
Can I ask what the NW stands for?

Ummm...Northwest?

SteelAbility
05-05-2010, 12:19 PM
You need therapy.
For what? Being a Factologist?

For being a SELECTIVE Factologist.

NW Steeler
05-05-2010, 12:19 PM
That is where I live. Washington State.

HeHateMe
05-05-2010, 12:31 PM
Northwest
I thought so. I spent time (11 years) in the 509 in Spokane. Left in 95

NW Steeler
05-05-2010, 12:38 PM
So that east cost climate is making you grumpy!

HeHateMe
05-05-2010, 12:43 PM
So that east cost climate is making you grumpy!
Not grumpy bro (smile) Just don't like how my team is being drug down because of his actions. I LOVE the Steelers. I LIKE the players. The SI article comes out tomorrow it will be interesting to see how you guys spin ALL THE REPORTS of the bad behavior of Ben Rothlisberger. I know I know........Everyone is lying and obssessed like me. LOL

NW Steeler
05-05-2010, 01:53 PM
I won't spin it in any way. I never said that Ben wasn't a douchebag. That is a complete different subject.