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NW Steeler
04-18-2010, 05:40 PM
This topic has been discussed to an exhaustive level. But I don't see how any team is going to trade for him at this point. Can you imagine the fan backlash from another team...say the Rams...if they traded the #1 overall pick (plus some) to the Steelers for Ben? They let the Steelers draft a squeaky clean Sam Bradford and they take on an alleged "rapist" (those are not my words)? I just can't see it happening from a PR standpoint. Even if the Steelers wanted to trade Ben right now, I don't think it will happen. because they will not get fair value for him. I for one will be glad that he is staying in Pittsburgh.

papillon
04-18-2010, 06:00 PM
I guess I'm one of the trade Ben guys since I've been outspoken about his ineptitude in conducting himself in public, even though I've never said to actually trade him. I wouldn't be saddened however if the Steelers were to trade him to SF or Seattle for this year's first round picks ( 2 for each of them) and something next year.

I'd rather the Steelers go into battle with Ben, but if they choose not to I would completely understand their position. No need to rehash that discussion.

With Ben the Steelers have an image problem until he proves himself socially acceptable, without Ben their image doesn't take a hit as bad, but they won't be as successful. Tough call, I'm glad I don't have to make it.

Pappy

Snatch98
04-18-2010, 06:03 PM
I don't want him traded but you can't ignore everyone, even those outside this message board are discussing it daily. Right now there is something with ESPN insider about "potential trade options" I'm not a insider so I have no idea what it discloses. It's likely just a bunch of typical ESPN speculation. Insiders? anyone wanna post up the info?

hawaiiansteel
04-18-2010, 06:08 PM
Do not trade Ben.

Yes, he has made some mistakes and yes, it's time for him to grow up. However, I have full faith and confidence that Ben will learn from these unfortunate events and become not only a better player but also a better person.

BlackJackGold
04-18-2010, 06:19 PM
There is no 'fixing' a sociopath.

No treatment options, no counseling options, no meds, nothing.

brothervad
04-18-2010, 06:42 PM
honestly at this point I doubt they would get 2 #1's for Ben. Not because I think his talent is devalued...but the Steelers can't shop him. If they do the other teams will know they want to part with him "at all costs" and will low ball the Steelers.

The only way this comes down, is the Steelers keep radio silence on trading Ben and actually do have a scenario where they keep him.

And decide the only way they part with Ben is if someone on Draft day present them something that knocks their socks off.

My heart would like to see a trade, but my head realizes that it is unlikely. As stated before I will root for the Steelers, but could care a less about the QB if it is Ben...

But that's fairly well known in other threads :)

brothervad

Flasteel
04-18-2010, 06:43 PM
There is no 'fixing' a sociopath.

No treatment options, no counseling options, no meds, nothing.

Now Ben is a sociopath? I'm sure if you looked up the DSM-IV criteria you would find consistencies with a few of the reported "facts" in his cases. But to try and offer that type of diagnosis based on media accounts from 2 impaired and/or duplicitous individuals - all from the comfort of your couch - is at best idiotic.

All it shows is you disliked Roethlisberger prior to these recent situations or you are too quick to judge others. Either way, it's real weak to come on here slinging that kind of crap. It sounds like something you'd see on a Ravens board.

ter1230_4
04-18-2010, 07:02 PM
I think that Ben's conduct was reprehensible, but I don't necessarily think that he is a sociopath. Obviously I am only speculating, but I think that Ben lacks maturity and is a binge drinker who is obnoxious when he is drunk. Couple that with a feeling of entitlement that comes from being a star athelete and companions who are enablers, and it is a recipe for disaster.

But I don't think that he is beyond redemption, and I don't think that he should be traded. Putting aside emotion, the NFL is a business, and the players are assets. Like it or not, Ben Roethlisberger is the most valuable asset that the Steelers have. For those of us who have been Steelers fans for more than 40 years, we know all too well how rare true franchise QB's are. We had to wait 20 years after Bradshaw left for Big Ben to show up. Some teams have never had a franchise QB. Every year that Ben lines up under center for the Steelers they have a legitimate chance to win the Super Bowl. It simply doesn't make sense to trade him at the point in time where his value is the lowest. It would be like selling a good stcck after it had a bad quarter and it's price had fallen substantially. Unless you think that the company is never going to recover, you should hold it. I think Ben can recover, and I think that the Steelers nation should allow him the opportunity that Art Rooney has asked us to give him.

Ben needs to follow the example that Kobe Bryant has set for him. When the Lakers won the NBA title last year, the Lakers fans didn't enjoy it one bit less because Kobe was still on the team and was the MVP. Like Kobe, Ben is going to have to be purer than Caeser's wife. He needs to get counselling and follow through on what recommendations result from that counseling. He needs to stop going out drinking and trying to see whether he can get laid every night by a different woman. He needs to grow up and start taking his responsiblities as a franchise QB seriously. And hopefully one day he can find a nice woman and settle down. To date he's been looking in all of the wrong places.

Chadman
04-18-2010, 07:13 PM
I don't think I even care anymore.

I'll support the Steelers, and buy the jerseys of players like Troy Polamalu.

I hate that the Steelers are viewed with ridicule because of the actions of a few players. I hate the media. I can't believe the Steelers & NFL would suspend/fine Ben for rumours- I believe there must be substance to those rumours. I can't believe Ben & his legal team would ALLOW Ben to be suspended or fined based on rumours. If you want to believe Ben is innocent- go ahead. Don't ram it down my throat, I don't care. It is what it is.

The girl's testimony is crap. The whole process was a disaster & as a result, will always be viewed as Ben getting away with it.

Trade Ben or keep him- can't be bothered. Win the f'n SB on the back of the Defense for all I care.

I don't WANT to support a Ravens/Bengals type organisation. I WANT my Steelers to be more than that. If they are not- maybe that is my problem.

Maybe now we can all at least agree that talent does outweight character, and as a result- the Steelers should definately draft Dez Bryant if he falls to #18.

skyhawk
04-18-2010, 07:15 PM
There is no 'fixing' a sociopath.

No treatment options, no counseling options, no meds, nothing.

Now Ben is a sociopath? I'm sure if you looked up the DSM-IV criteria you would find consistencies with a few of the reported "facts" in his cases. But to try and offer that type of diagnosis based on media accounts from 2 impaired and/or duplicitous individuals - all from the comfort of your couch - is at best idiotic.

All it shows is you disliked Roethlisberger prior to these recent situations or you are too quick to judge others. Either way, it's real weak to come on here slinging that kind of crap. It sounds like something you'd see on a Ravens board.

:Clap

ter1230_4
04-18-2010, 07:26 PM
Talent does NOT outweigh character, with the possible exception of established franchise QB's. Talented WR's with bad character are a dime a dozen, like Santonio Holmes and Plaxico Burress before him. I would be outraged if the Steelers were to waste their first round pick on a problem child like Dez Bryant. The Steelers don't need a first round receiver (or even a second or third round receiver) because they alreay have four pretty good ones (Ward, Wallace, Randall El and Battle) and they need to give Limas Sweed a legitimate chance to show what he can do.

Chadman
04-18-2010, 07:29 PM
Talent does NOT outweigh character, with the possible exception of established franchise QB's. Talented WR's with bad character are a dime a dozen, like Santonio Holmes and Plaxico Burress before him. I would be outraged if the Steelers were to waste their first round pick on a problem child like Dez Bryant. The Steelers don't need a first round receiver (or even a second or third round receiver) because they alreay have four pretty good ones (Ward, Wallace, Randall El and Battle) and they need to give Limas Sweed a legitimate chance to show what he can do.

Outraged?

Why?

In fact- you know what? I don't really want to know. I'll just accept that.

ter1230_4
04-18-2010, 07:59 PM
Chadman,

You say that "I hate that the Steelers are viewed with ridicule because of the actions of a few players", and that "I don't WANT to support a Ravens/Bengals type organization. I WANT my Steelers to be more than that". I am in total agreement with you. But then you say that talent outweighs character and the Steelers need to draft Dez Bryant in the first round. That seems very inconsistent to me.

brothervad
04-18-2010, 08:03 PM
Chadman,

You say that "I hate that the Steelers are viewed with ridicule because of the actions of a few players", and that "I don't WANT to support a Ravens/Bengals type organization. I WANT my Steelers to be more than that". I am in total agreement with you. But then you say that talent outweighs character and the Steelers need to draft Dez Bryant in the first round. That seems very inconsistent to me.


I could be wrong, because I am not Chadman...but I think there may be some sarcasm involved here.

brothervad

costanza2k1
04-18-2010, 08:15 PM
Rams, Steelers could benefit from trades
April, 16, 2010
APR 16
2:39
PM ET
Comment Print Email Share
By Kevin Weidl, Scouts Inc.
It has been reported that the Cleveland Browns are interested in trading with the St. Louis Rams to obtain the No. 1 overall pick. Should that trade go down, it would likely cost the Browns the No. 7 pick this year and their first-round selection in 2011.

Cleveland obviously needs franchise quarterback and would target Oklahoma's Sam Bradford. Team president Mike Holmgren has said publicly that he is not in love with Notre Dame QB Jimmy Clausen -- which all but rules Clausen out as a possibility for the Browns at No. 7 -- and while the price for Bradford would be steep, he would fill a very big need.

As for the Rams, the move would make sense for them if they still have reservations about Bradford's surgically repaired throwing shoulder and how his experience in Oklahoma's spread system would translate to the NFL. It could also make financial sense because St. Louis would not be locked into paying Bradford something north of $40 million in guaranteed money.

The Rams could then select Clausen at No. 7, mitigating concerns about his arm strength and how he handles bad weather by giving him eight home games per year in a dome and another guaranteed game in Arizona. He would perhaps be the biggest winner of all, given the playing situation and money involved.

Should the trade not materialize, the Browns would likely target a safety, such as Tennessee's Eric Berry. If Berry comes off the board in the first six picks, Cleveland could take a pass-rusher such as South Florida's Jason Pierre-Paul or Georgia Tech's Derrick Morgan, or even Berry's college teammate Dan Williams, as the heir apparent to aging NT Shaun Rogers.

And while it would seem to make sense for St. Louis to begin negotiating with Bradford in the absence of a trade, ESPN's Adam Schefter and others are reporting that neither side wants to enter into negotiations ahead of draft day. That opens up the possibility that the Rams could select Bradford and put him on the market immediately, much like what the San Diego Chargers did with Eli Manning in 2004.

Pondering a Roethlisberger trade
There has been speculation in recent days that the Pittsburgh Steelers might consider trading away troubled QB Ben Roethlisberger. Some argue that strictly from a football perspective the Steelers would be foolish to part ways with a franchise quarterback who has won two Super Bowls and is just now entering his prime years, but from Scouts Inc.'s perspective, some interesting scenarios develop when you start connecting the dots.

First, rule out bitter division rival Cleveland and other quarterback-starved AFC teams like Buffalo, Oakland and Jacksonville. The last thing Pittsburgh wants is to face Roethlisberger twice a year with the Browns, or have him standing in the way of a Super Bowl run with another AFC team.

(Yes, Philadelphia recently traded Donovan McNabb within its division to Washington, but in our opinion, the Eagles are not afraid of an aging McNabb in the way the Steelers would be of Roethlisberger.)

That leaves two NFC teams with a need at quarterback and the ammunition to acquire a player of Big Ben's stature: Seattle and San Francisco.

The Seahawks (Nos. 6 and 14) and 49ers (Nos. 13 and 17) each have two first-round picks and could conceivably package their earlier first-rounder with their 2011 first-round pick to acquire Roethlisberger, who would be an upgrade over fragile Seahawks starter Matt Hasselbeck or inconsistent 49ers QB Alex Smith.

Either team would instantly have the best quarterback in the NFC West and would maintain a first-round presence this year while Pittsburgh -- which currently picks at No. 18 overall -- would end up with two first-round selections this year and next.

That would leave the Steelers free to shore up needs along the offensive line and at cornerback this year, and if Seattle dealt the No. 6 pick, Pittsburgh would be in the running for a tackle, such as Oklahoma's Trent Williams or Iowa's Bryan Bulaga.

If San Francisco included the 13th selection, perhaps an interior lineman such as Idaho G Mike Iupati or Florida G/C Maurkice Pouncey would come into play, and -- trade or not -- Alabama CB Kareem Jackson is and would remain a possibility at No. 18.

The Steelers could then find a stopgap quarterback solution such as Byron Leftwich or Marc Bulger in 2010 and be set up nicely to use one of its 2011 first-rounders to obtain a top prospect such as Jake Locker (Washington), Andrew Luck (Stanford) or Ryan Mallett (Arkansas), either straight up or in a trade-up scenario.

There are certainly no guarantees when it comes to quarterback prospects, but all three players listed above will enter the NFL ahead of the game compared to most other college quarterbacks. Locker and Luck play in pro-style systems for coaches (Steve Sarkisian and Jim Harbaugh, respectively) who know how to develop quarterbacks, and Mallett has the kind of size and rifle arm NFL teams covet.

No one is quite sure how Pittsburgh will handle Roethlisberger, and we all know how hard it is to find a franchise quarterback on his level, but there are possibilities out there that are feasible and could turn a short-term loss into a long-term gain for the Steelers while giving some lucky team one of the best quarterbacks in the league.

Analyzing the Ginn trade
The San Francisco 49ers filled a need for a playmaker opposite Michael Crabtree by trading what is reported to be a fifth-round pick to the Miami Dolphins in return for WR Ted Ginn Jr.

Scouts Inc. did not have the 49ers seeking help at receiver in its latest first-round mock draft, and they are now more free than ever to focus on upgrading their defense and/or offensive line with picks No. 13 and 17.

A cornerback like Florida's Joe Haden would make sense with the 13th pick, and with the 17th pick, San Francisco could address its need for a pass rusher with Texas DE/OLB Sergio Kindle.

Offensive tackle is also a possibility at No. 17, and with the top three tackles likely off the board and Rutgers' Anthony Davis facing character questions, the Niners could opt for USC's Charles Brown, who has gained momentum lately in scouting circles.

Miami, meanwhile, filled its own hole at wide receiver with the Brandon Marshall trade and can now use the No. 12 overall pick to bolster its 3-4 defensive front with a pass rusher such as Morgan or Pierre-Paul, or perhaps a nose tackle such as Williams.

Potential options for a Big Ben trade
7:23
AM ET
Ben Roethlisberger | Steelers | Interested: 49ers?, Seahawks?, Cardinals?, Raiders?, Bills? Top Email

While Thursday's press conference with Art Rooney, II didn't bring any news of a punishment for Ben Roethlisberger, we did get a report earlier in the day from Jason La Canfora of NFL.com that the team would "intently listen" to any trade offers that came in for the QB. During the presser, Rooney was quite conspicuous in not shooting down talk of a Roethlisberger trade. On Friday morning, Michael Lombardi of National Football Post pondered a possible Roethlisberger trade, speculating on the Raiders and Bills trading their opening round picks in exchange for the quarterback.

Here's some background. After the charges against Ben Roethlisberger in Georgia were dropped, we wondered whether he'd still face punishment from the Pittsburgh Steelers or the league. This is especially true given the fact that Steelers ownership is now "shaken" by the "onslaught of fan discontent" over the Roethlisberger situation, per a tweet from Yahoo! Sports' Charles Robinson.

Taking this to the logical extreme, the Steelers could simply put their Super Bowl champion QB on the market, as discussed above. They proved with the Santonio Holmes trade that they're willing to cut ties with players who are bad apples (regardless of on-field talent), and for a price tag that would raise eyebrows. On the field, Roethlisberger is a match for a lot of teams. He's certainly one of the NFL's most talented QBs, and there are many teams that would jump at the chance to add him to their roster if not for the negative off-field activities.

Ken Laird of 1250 ESPN Radio in Pittsburgh emailed in with the feeling on the ground in the Steel City. In Laird's opinion, the city seems to be evenly split, with some folks ready to send Ben away because of the allegations, while some folks aren't ready to crucify one of the NFL's top QBs given the uncertainties involved.

Adam Schefter and Kevin Weidl of Scouts, Inc. offer up some potential trade partners for the Steelers below:


Adam Schefter
If they can't get McNabb, Cards should call about Ben
"If I were the Cardinals' GM, I would have traded for Donovan McNabb. And I would call the Redskins now and find out what they would want for him, even though they just traded for him. And if they didn't want to give up McNabb, my next phone call would be to Pittsburgh to see what it would take to get Ben Roethlisberger. I'd want to reunite him with Ken Whisenhunt and Russ Grimm. One way or another, if I'm the Cardinals' GM, I'd want to shore up my quarterback position in a way that cannot be done through the draft, but only by a trade."

Scouts, Inc.'s Kevin Weidl
Steelers could benefit by trading Roethlisberger to Niners, Seahawks
"The Seahawks (Nos. 6 and 14) and 49ers (Nos. 13 and 17) each have two first-round picks and could conceivably package their earlier first-rounder with their 2011 first-round pick to acquire Roethlisberger, who would be an upgrade over fragile Seahawks starter Matt Hasselbeck or inconsistent 49ers QB Alex Smith. Either team would instantly have the best quarterback in the NFC West and would maintain a first-round presence this year while Pittsburgh -- which currently picks at No. 18 overall -- would end up with two first-round selections this year and next. ... The Steelers could then find a stopgap quarterback solution such as Byron Leftwich or Marc Bulger in 2010 and be set up nicely to use one of its 2011 first-rounders to obtain a top prospect such as Jake Locker (Washington), Andrew Luck (Stanford) or Ryan Mallett (Arkansas), either straight up or in a trade-up scenario."

Shawn
04-18-2010, 08:27 PM
There is no 'fixing' a sociopath.

No treatment options, no counseling options, no meds, nothing.

Now Ben is a sociopath? I'm sure if you looked up the DSM-IV criteria you would find consistencies with a few of the reported "facts" in his cases. But to try and offer that type of diagnosis based on media accounts from 2 impaired and/or duplicitous individuals - all from the comfort of your couch - is at best idiotic.

All it shows is you disliked Roethlisberger prior to these recent situations or you are too quick to judge others. Either way, it's real weak to come on here slinging that kind of crap. It sounds like something you'd see on a Ravens board.

Don't feed the trolls.

Chadman
04-18-2010, 09:43 PM
Chadman,

You say that "I hate that the Steelers are viewed with ridicule because of the actions of a few players", and that "I don't WANT to support a Ravens/Bengals type organization. I WANT my Steelers to be more than that". I am in total agreement with you. But then you say that talent outweighs character and the Steelers need to draft Dez Bryant in the first round. That seems very inconsistent to me.


I could be wrong, because I am not Chadman...but I think there may be some sarcasm involved here.

brothervad

You might just be onto something... :D

NW Steeler
04-18-2010, 10:45 PM
Well, this thread bounced off of what I had intended. My main point was that the Steelers are NOT going to get fair value for Ben at this point, so he will not be traded. They aren't just going to give him away to be rid of the whole mess.

Chadman
04-18-2010, 10:55 PM
Well, this thread bounced off of what I had intended. My main point was that the Steelers are NOT going to get fair value for Ben at this point, so he will not be traded. They aren't just going to give him away to be rid of the whole mess.

Said right from the beginning that the Steelers would never get what we, as fans, would believe to be market value for Holmes & Ben.

They effectively killed their 'market value' for the Steelers.

BlackJackGold
04-18-2010, 11:18 PM
Well, this thread bounced off of what I had intended. My main point was that the Steelers are NOT going to get fair value for Ben at this point, so he will not be traded. They aren't just going to give him away to be rid of the whole mess.


Unfortunately, you are mostly right.

There isn't an owner in the league that will take a chance until they know what his discipline will be.

Then there is the huge contract and risk managemnet to consider on both his personal conduct and life along with his health (concussions).

The Rooney's are in a position that they may not be able to slam dunk a 'morals clause' because he was never even charged let alone convicted.

It sadly appears that fans who want to see justice will have to pray for 'football karma'.

Ya know...

Flasteel
04-18-2010, 11:31 PM
Well, this thread bounced off of what I had intended. My main point was that the Steelers are NOT going to get fair value for Ben at this point, so he will not be traded. They aren't just going to give him away to be rid of the whole mess.


Unfortunately, you are mostly right.

There isn't an owner in the league that will take a chance until they know what his discipline will be.

Then there is the huge contract and risk managemnet to consider on both his personal conduct and life along with his health (concussions).

The Rooney's are in a position that they may not be able to slam dunk a 'morals clause' because he was never even charged let alone convicted.

It sadly appears that fans who want to see justice will have to pray for 'football karma'.

Ya know...

Holy **** man. First you call Roethlisberger a sociopath and now you are openly hoping that he is injured?

What's the deal with your Big Ben beef? I mean it seems the vast majority of us are embarrassed by his actions and want to see him held accountable to a much higher standard. But you have taken things up a few notches with your statements in this thread alone.

How can you even come on here and spew this kind of garbage?

SanAntonioSteelerFan
04-18-2010, 11:48 PM
Well, this thread bounced off of what I had intended. My main point was that the Steelers are NOT going to get fair value for Ben at this point, so he will not be traded. They aren't just going to give him away to be rid of the whole mess.


Unfortunately, you are mostly right.

There isn't an owner in the league that will take a chance until they know what his discipline will be.

Then there is the huge contract and risk managemnet to consider on both his personal conduct and life along with his health (concussions).

The Rooney's are in a position that they may not be able to slam dunk a 'morals clause' because he was never even charged let alone convicted.

It sadly appears that fans who want to see justice will have to pray for 'football karma'.

Ya know...

Holy **** man. First you call Roethlisberger a sociopath and now you are openly hoping that he is injured?

What's the deal with your Big Ben beef? I mean it seems the vast majority of us are embarrassed by his actions and want to see him held accountable to a much higher standard. But you have taken things up a few notches with your statements in this thread alone.

How can you even come on here and spew this kind of garbage?

I wonder if he floats (BJ, not Ben!)? :shock: :wink:

buckeyehoppy
04-19-2010, 01:56 AM
Well, this thread bounced off of what I had intended. My main point was that the Steelers are NOT going to get fair value for Ben at this point, so he will not be traded. They aren't just going to give him away to be rid of the whole mess.

You hit it right there, NWS. The Steelers only got a 5th for Holmes... a LOW 5th, at that. What makes anyone think the Steelers FO could get much more than a rusty bucket of bolts for Benjamin? We think he's worth two 1st Rounders. But we're probably in the miniority.

JTP53609
04-19-2010, 08:13 AM
might as well throw us alex smith too if your the 49ers, maybe we could do something with him in addition to the 2 pics....but like mentioned up top, he is worth 2 first round picks talent wise but there is no way any team even the raiders would give us 2 first rounders for him based on his situation and reputation....well maybe the raiders but thats it...

Dee Dub
04-19-2010, 01:38 PM
........Can you imagine the fan backlash from another team...say the Rams...if they traded the #1 overall pick (plus some) to the Steelers for Ben?

I'd be willing to bet that back lash wont be worse than what it will be when the Rams are say 0-8 to start next season.

A team like San Francisco is close. They have a descent defense and also some offensive weapons yet no QB. Ben Roethlisberger could put them over the top. Alex Smith or Shaun Hill isnt going too. Think about it.

BlackJackGold
04-19-2010, 07:38 PM
All it shows is you disliked Roethlisberger prior to these recent situations or you are too quick to judge others. Either way, it's real weak to come on here slinging that kind of crap. It sounds like something you'd see on a Ravens board.

If I disliked the drama mamma before then I wouldn't have owned an autographed helmet, SB XLIII jersey and a few other pieces of memorabilia.

Granted, I thought he was dumb, but that was before he showed me he was pathological and acted as a sociopath does.

You can love him all ya want.

Just don't expect many outside the fanatic fans to respect ya for it.

Or many in that same fan base for that matter.....

BlackJackGold
04-19-2010, 07:38 PM
There is no 'fixing' a sociopath.

No treatment options, no counseling options, no meds, nothing.

Now Ben is a sociopath? I'm sure if you looked up the DSM-IV criteria you would find consistencies with a few of the reported "facts" in his cases. But to try and offer that type of diagnosis based on media accounts from 2 impaired and/or duplicitous individuals - all from the comfort of your couch - is at best idiotic.

All it shows is you disliked Roethlisberger prior to these recent situations or you are too quick to judge others. Either way, it's real weak to come on here slinging that kind of crap. It sounds like something you'd see on a Ravens board.

Don't feed the trolls.


Shawn wants to have my baby.

:shock:

SS Laser
04-19-2010, 09:53 PM
All it shows is you disliked Roethlisberger prior to these recent situations or you are too quick to judge others. Either way, it's real weak to come on here slinging that kind of crap. It sounds like something you'd see on a Ravens board.

If I disliked the drama mamma before then I wouldn't have owned an autographed helmet, SB XLIII jersey and a few other pieces of memorabilia.

Granted, I thought he was dumb, but that was before he showed me he was pathological and acted as a sociopath does.

You can love him all ya want.

Just don't expect many outside the fanatic fans to respect ya for it.

Or many in that same fan base for that matter.....


Wonder how many people will be pizzed when I show up at training camp in Ben's jersey? :stirpot