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View Full Version : Another legal question - "too drunk to consent = rape".



SanAntonioSteelerFan
04-17-2010, 02:07 PM
I can see that being true in a circumstance where you happen to meet someone who's too drunk to consent (like in the crowd at the Indy 500), you're not, and you have intercourse with her.

But Ben's case doesn't seem to be that way. They had (per the DA) verbal foreplay (mutual teasing, sexually explicit mutual conversation), she conducted herself in a way that suggested she was ready/wanted to have sex ("DTF" lapel pin), she initiated what could be considered sexual contact with him (pinching him - certainly guys have gotten slammed legally with "sexual assault/harassment" charges for doing something similar). Can't all this be put together legally be construed as consent of some sort - maybe implied?

And if after that she got REALLY REALLY drunk, is that implied consent still in effect, or is there some magic BAC level where a withdrawal of sexual consent automatically occurs?

Just to be clear, I'm not trying to justify what he did morally. I'm just addressing the legal issues here, because some are still bringing them up and saying "RAPE" - despite the DA's best efforts being unsuccesful to even charge him for this, much less prove it.

Why would someone do that?

Northern_Blitz
04-17-2010, 02:56 PM
I don't know what the law is in the US. But it can't look good that Ben was the one buying (at least some) of the booze she was using to get hammered. This is the same reason I don't get the people who say she shouldn't be believed becasue she was really drunk. She was really drunk (in part) because Ben was buying booze for her and the other girls at the party.

I'd also think that consent has to happen at the time of the act.

birtikidis
04-17-2010, 02:59 PM
I don't know what the law is in the US. But it can't look good that Ben was the one buying (at least some) of the booze she was using to get hammered. This is the same reason I don't get the people who say she shouldn't be believed becasue she was really drunk. She was really drunk (in part) because Ben was buying booze for her and the other girls at the party.
has that been proven though? I didn't read about it, so I'm just asking. it has been IMPLIED by ESPN and NFLN that it has been and it (IMO) has been assumed to have been proven.. I'm just waiting to see people come forward that can prove he bought them shots...

JAR
04-17-2010, 02:59 PM
I don't know what the law is in the US. But it can't look good that Ben was the one buying (at least some) of the booze she was using to get hammered. This is the same reason I don't get the people who say she shouldn't be believed becasue she was really drunk. She was really drunk (in part) because Ben was buying booze for her and the other girls at the party.

How does anyone know if she wasn't plastered when she arrived at the last bar? Do any of the accounts say she drank some of the booze Ben bought?

Northern_Blitz
04-17-2010, 03:07 PM
has that been proven though? I didn't read about it, so I'm just asking. it has been IMPLIED by ESPN and NFLN that it has been and it (IMO) has been assumed to have been proven.. I'm just waiting to see people come forward that can prove he bought them shots...

I think that there are statements that he said "take my shots..." again nothing about that night is 100%, but I think that means that he bought the shots. I also thought I read somewhere that Ben was buying alcohol for everyone in the VIP room (bottle service??). I think this is what the bar was saying (i.e. it wasn't them serving an under age girl).


How does anyone know if she wasn't plastered when she arrived at the last bar? Do any of the accounts say she drank some of the booze Ben bought?

The OP was talking about a situation where she was originally somewhat sober and consented, then got more drunk and wouldn't be able to consent.

I know that the people at the door here don't have a stellar record, but presumabaly they won't let her into a bar if she was so drunk that she was falling down.

SanAntonioSteelerFan
04-17-2010, 03:32 PM
has that been proven though? I didn't read about it, so I'm just asking. it has been IMPLIED by ESPN and NFLN that it has been and it (IMO) has been assumed to have been proven.. I'm just waiting to see people come forward that can prove he bought them shots...

I think that there are statements that he said "take my shots..." again nothing about that night is 100%, but I think that means that he bought the shots. I also thought I read somewhere that Ben was buying alcohol for everyone in the VIP room (bottle service??). I think this is what the bar was saying (i.e. it wasn't them serving an under age girl).


How does anyone know if she wasn't plastered when she arrived at the last bar? Do any of the accounts say she drank some of the booze Ben bought?

The OP was talking about a situation where she was originally somewhat sober and consented, then got more drunk and wouldn't be able to consent.

I know that the people at the door here don't have a stellar record, but presumabaly they won't let her into a bar if she was so drunk that she was falling down.

Yes, that is correct, that is what I was wondering about. Does she have to "re-consent" once her BAC rises above a certain level? Maybe the law varies state-by-state?

Geesh, this is crazy, having to wonder about this cr@p.

feltdizz
04-17-2010, 05:14 PM
I don't know what the law is in the US. But it can't look good that Ben was the one buying (at least some) of the booze she was using to get hammered. This is the same reason I don't get the people who say she shouldn't be believed becasue she was really drunk. She was really drunk (in part) because Ben was buying booze for her and the other girls at the party.

I'd also think that consent has to happen at the time of the act.

Kinda like the U.S. saying Iraq had WMD's...

but ignoring where they got them from... U.S.

Shawn
04-17-2010, 05:36 PM
I have dealt with cases very similar to this one. I have picked the brain of police officers concerning the subject. It is extremely rare that the DA will ever prosecute a too drunk to give consent unless there are other circumstances surrounded the incident...(ie the person involved drugged, or encouraged the drunkeness with intent, person was passed out etc). The law is on the books but the reason it's not enforced is because you would have half the US population in prison for having sex with a drunk individual. Also, usually both parties are intoxicated. Maybe Ben was too drunk to give consent. Maybe she took advantage of him (yes that is said tongue in cheek but makes a point). It's just a legal nightmare to prosecute these cases where both parties needed to show better judgement.

In this case, I would say that Ben was treading a fine line. Sounds like this girl was falling down drunk. The DA said he bought the girls shots. At the time of incident she could have easily been approaching the .25 mark. Even if not criminal it shows extremely poor judgement. Ben should have known better.

birtikidis
04-17-2010, 06:18 PM
I think that there are statements that he said "take my shots..." again nothing about that night is 100%, but I think that means that he bought the shots. I also thought I read somewhere that Ben was buying alcohol for everyone in the VIP room (bottle service??). I think this is what the bar was saying (i.e. it wasn't them serving an under age girl).

wasn't it her sorority sister that said that though? I didn't hear a single statement where he didn't address the whole group and whether she was actually a part of that group to receive shots. it was implied, but, there is no way we can actually say one way or the other. so when it comes to the whole alcohol thing, there is no way i'm going to point fingers at anyone. like someone else said, she could have expressed interest at any of the other bars they saw each other at and the alcohol simply hadn't effected her until later in the night (after getting hammered every where else).

feltdizz
04-17-2010, 06:42 PM
I think that there are statements that he said "take my shots..." again nothing about that night is 100%, but I think that means that he bought the shots. I also thought I read somewhere that Ben was buying alcohol for everyone in the VIP room (bottle service??). I think this is what the bar was saying (i.e. it wasn't them serving an under age girl).

wasn't it her sorority sister that said that though? I didn't hear a single statement where he didn't address the whole group and whether she was actually a part of that group to receive shots. it was implied, but, there is no way we can actually say one way or the other. so when it comes to the whole alcohol thing, there is no way i'm going to point fingers at anyone. like someone else said, she could have expressed interest at any of the other bars they saw each other at and the alcohol simply hadn't effected her until later in the night (after getting hammered every where else).

I thought they were bar hopping along with Ben or kept crossing paths...

I know Patrone shots sneak up on me... I've witnessed grown men turn into children an hour after a few shots.

birtikidis
04-17-2010, 08:56 PM
I think that there are statements that he said "take my shots..." again nothing about that night is 100%, but I think that means that he bought the shots. I also thought I read somewhere that Ben was buying alcohol for everyone in the VIP room (bottle service??). I think this is what the bar was saying (i.e. it wasn't them serving an under age girl).

wasn't it her sorority sister that said that though? I didn't hear a single statement where he didn't address the whole group and whether she was actually a part of that group to receive shots. it was implied, but, there is no way we can actually say one way or the other. so when it comes to the whole alcohol thing, there is no way i'm going to point fingers at anyone. like someone else said, she could have expressed interest at any of the other bars they saw each other at and the alcohol simply hadn't effected her until later in the night (after getting hammered every where else).

I thought they were bar hopping along with Ben or kept crossing paths...

I know Patrone shots sneak up on me... I've witnessed grown men turn into children an hour after a few shots.
mmm Patron...
I've heard differing stories on the bar hopping thing. It sounds to me, from what i've read anyway, that Ben's group would go into a place and then shortly after the accuser group would follow. and i wouldn't be surprised that this is the way it ahppened. I mean, who woulnd't follow a super bowl winner around town... they wouldn't want to look desperate so they wouldn't follow like a bunch of puppies, but they'd follow.