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feltdizz
04-17-2010, 01:42 PM
I will still cheer Ben on the field regardless of all the talk and media blitz against him but off the field I can't vouch for him.

My question for those who think Ben is 100% clean and is being lynched by the media. Just wondering if this is due to honestly not being able to cheer him if he is the bar bully he is reported to he regarding women? I ask this because I read about how it was never established he touched her, he isn't responsible for checking her ID, he was never in the bathroom with her, he never said sex so the contact was of the friendly nature... The cop is resigning because he wants to open a school for the blind...

Its the stupid sh!t being said that makes me wonder if some fans are turning this latest episode into a G rated Pixar Cartoon when we know it's more like a NC 17 straight to DVD short film.

SanAntonioSteelerFan
04-17-2010, 02:23 PM
I will still cheer Ben on the field regardless of all the talk and media blitz against him but off the field I can't vouch for him.

My question for those who think Ben is 100% clean and is being lynched by the media. Just wondering if this is due to honestly not being able to cheer him if he is the bar bully he is reported to he regarding women? I ask this because I read about how it was never established he touched her, he isn't responsible for checking her ID, he was never in the bathroom with her, he never said sex so the contact was of the friendly nature... The cop is resigning because he wants to open a school for the blind...

Its the stupid sh!t being said that makes me wonder if some fans are turning this latest episode into a G rated Pixar Cartoon when we know it's more like a NC 17 straight to DVD short film.

I guess I shouldn't be answering this, because I don't think of myself as a Ben "defender". What bothers me is that witness statements from the accuser's friends obtained hours after the fact are being reported as if they were fact. So, if I'm defending anything, it is what I perceive to be an assault on the truth.

If the witness statements were true, and if there were no other contradictory sides to the story, it would be a horrible tragedy that took place that night, and severe penalties on Ben should be imposed.

But there are always two or more sides to every story. As I've said in another post, I feel it's very likely that whatever sexual activity took place was consensual. I also have a pretty good suspicion that there was illegal conspiracy among all the DTF chicks in coordinating their statements.

In a big way I hope this DOES go to civil trial. Then all the Facebook pages, texts, cell phone messages, and phone calls among the DTF chicks can be subpoenaed, and the DTFers can be cross-examined.

Ben can't look any worse than he does now as a result of a civil trial - he's already "guilty" of rape in the public's eye. I think he would come out looking better at the end of a civil trial - not a rapist, just immature and boorish ( :wft is a 28 year old doing cruising in a college bar?).

My :2c

birtikidis
04-17-2010, 02:27 PM
I'm not a defender or an antagonist. I simply believe that everyone is reacting too soon. we don't know all the facts. none of the antagonists have waited to hear from ben. and until the team and his lawyer tell him to talk he won't.
my philosophy as a coach has always been, I'd rather lose with winners then win with losers. and I'll always stick to that. but I wont convict him after just listening to NFLN and ESPN. I need more than that

SanAntonioSteelerFan
04-17-2010, 02:43 PM
I'm not a defender or an antagonist. I simply believe that everyone is reacting too soon. we don't know all the facts. none of the antagonists have waited to hear from ben. and until the team and his lawyer tell him to talk he won't.
my philosophy as a coach has always been, I'd rather lose with winners then win with losers. and I'll always stick to that. but I wont convict him after just listening to NFLN and ESPN. I need more than that

I have been asked by management to warn you that reason and rationality are not to be tolerated on this board, especially regarding this topic. This is your 1st and final warning!! :lol: :Boobs

BTW - is the NFLN really spewing the same stuff as ESPN, etc.? That's disturbing in a big way, as (like the Chinese Communist "Press") they don't say anything that isn't Goodell-Party approved ...

birtikidis
04-17-2010, 02:46 PM
I'm not a defender or an antagonist. I simply believe that everyone is reacting too soon. we don't know all the facts. none of the antagonists have waited to hear from ben. and until the team and his lawyer tell him to talk he won't.
my philosophy as a coach has always been, I'd rather lose with winners then win with losers. and I'll always stick to that. but I wont convict him after just listening to NFLN and ESPN. I need more than that

I have been asked by management to warn you that reason and rationality are not to be tolerated on this board, especially regarding this topic. This is your 1st and final warning!! :lol: :Boobs

BTW - is the NFLN really spewing the same stuff as ESPN, etc.? That's disturbing in a big way, as (like the Chinese Communist "Press") they don't say anything that isn't Goodell-Party approved ...
yea it's pretty much the same stuff. I've stopped listening the past two days. Confora is on a mission to make everyone think that the steelers want to get rid of ben

Sugar
04-17-2010, 02:58 PM
I will still cheer Ben on the field regardless of all the talk and media blitz against him but off the field I can't vouch for him.

My question for those who think Ben is 100% clean and is being lynched by the media. Just wondering if this is due to honestly not being able to cheer him if he is the bar bully he is reported to he regarding women? I ask this because I read about how it was never established he touched her, he isn't responsible for checking her ID, he was never in the bathroom with her, he never said sex so the contact was of the friendly nature... The cop is resigning because he wants to open a school for the blind...

Its the stupid sh!t being said that makes me wonder if some fans are turning this latest episode into a G rated Pixar Cartoon when we know it's more like a NC 17 straight to DVD short film.

I have no idea what happened that night and I don't have some deep-seeded need for Ben to be "clean." We have versions of the story from the accuser but I really have no reason to believe her. She has nothing to corroborate her story- no video, no eyewitness testimony, no physical evidence, no nothing but her accusation. That's not enough for me. The authorities looked into it and they didn't have enough to actually bring a charge or anything.

Do I care if Ben goes chasing tail in a "college bar"- nope. It doesn't matter to me. He's got to deal with God in regard to his fornication, but she is of legal age. Heck, my Grandfather (RIP) was 26 when he married my 16 year old grandmother so I guess that makes him some kind of perv to many on this board. If Ben did something that was purely socially offensive, but not illegal I just don't care.

I'm more troubled by the Steeler Nation. Loyalty went out the window with nothing more than the baseless accusations of a drunk sorority girl. I have four sisters and a daughter and I want to protect girls as much as anybody. That said there is just no reason to believe her.

BURGH86STEEL
04-17-2010, 03:32 PM
I will still cheer Ben on the field regardless of all the talk and media blitz against him but off the field I can't vouch for him.

My question for those who think Ben is 100% clean and is being lynched by the media. Just wondering if this is due to honestly not being able to cheer him if he is the bar bully he is reported to he regarding women? I ask this because I read about how it was never established he touched her, he isn't responsible for checking her ID, he was never in the bathroom with her, he never said sex so the contact was of the friendly nature... The cop is resigning because he wants to open a school for the blind...

Its the stupid sh!t being said that makes me wonder if some fans are turning this latest episode into a G rated Pixar Cartoon when we know it's more like a NC 17 straight to DVD short film.

I have no idea what happened that night and I don't have some deep-seeded need for Ben to be "clean." We have versions of the story from the accuser but I really have no reason to believe her. She has nothing to corroborate her story- no video, no eyewitness testimony, no physical evidence, no nothing but her accusation. That's not enough for me. The authorities looked into it and they didn't have enough to actually bring a charge or anything.

Do I care if Ben goes chasing tail in a "college bar"- nope. It doesn't matter to me. He's got to deal with God in regard to his fornication, but she is of legal age. Heck, my Grandfather (RIP) was 26 when he married my 16 year old grandmother so I guess that makes him some kind of perv to many on this board. If Ben did something that was purely socially offensive, but not illegal I just don't care.

I'm more troubled by the Steeler Nation. Loyalty went out the window with nothing more than the baseless accusations of a drunk sorority girl. I have four sisters and a daughter and I want to protect girls as much as anybody. That said there is just no reason to believe her.

Unfortunately Sugar, we live in a world where perception matters. Again, this is more then about "chasing tail". Ben had control over the entire situation. He can chase all the tail he wants. He needs to be more careful about the tail he chases because he is Ben Rothelisberger. The location also might help his cause. He has not shown good judgement in the tail he chased up to this point. He is not an unknown college kid any more. There are responsibilities that come with Ben's name now. The NFL, organization, and thousands of fans believe that he needs to live up to being a high profile figure. You may not see it that way. You know what, he will no longer be a Steeler if he can't live up to those standards. If he continues down the same path, he won't have a career in the NFL. It is a privilege to play in the NFL.

Ben will be suspended but it won't end there for many fans or possibly for the organization.

Thousands of Steelers fans live outside of Pittsburgh. I am one of those fans. I live in Philadelphia. Anyone who lives in Philly knows a lot of Eagles fans don't have scruples. I know how to tune out the morons and idiots. I know how to properly respond to fans opinions. There are many fans that can deal with ridicule and harassment of other fans. There are fans out there that can't stand or deal with the ridicule and harassment. There may be many bar fights or negative behavior as a result. I feel for the children that have to put up with the ridicule/harassment of other fans. It is not right but there are people like that out in this world.

The organization may stand to lose millions of dollars in business as a result. It will also lead some people to think the organization is no different then any other. Holmes was childish and deserved to be traded. Many people think Ben is in the same boat as Holmes. It is a contradiction to trade Holmes and keep Ben? I don't feel this way but many people do.

SanAntonioSteelerFan
04-17-2010, 03:42 PM
I will still cheer Ben on the field regardless of all the talk and media blitz against him but off the field I can't vouch for him.

My question for those who think Ben is 100% clean and is being lynched by the media. Just wondering if this is due to honestly not being able to cheer him if he is the bar bully he is reported to he regarding women? I ask this because I read about how it was never established he touched her, he isn't responsible for checking her ID, he was never in the bathroom with her, he never said sex so the contact was of the friendly nature... The cop is resigning because he wants to open a school for the blind...

Its the stupid sh!t being said that makes me wonder if some fans are turning this latest episode into a G rated Pixar Cartoon when we know it's more like a NC 17 straight to DVD short film.

I have no idea what happened that night and I don't have some deep-seeded need for Ben to be "clean." We have versions of the story from the accuser but I really have no reason to believe her. She has nothing to corroborate her story- no video, no eyewitness testimony, no physical evidence, no nothing but her accusation. That's not enough for me. The authorities looked into it and they didn't have enough to actually bring a charge or anything.

Do I care if Ben goes chasing tail in a "college bar"- nope. It doesn't matter to me. He's got to deal with God in regard to his fornication, but she is of legal age. Heck, my Grandfather (RIP) was 26 when he married my 16 year old grandmother so I guess that makes him some kind of perv to many on this board. If Ben did something that was purely socially offensive, but not illegal I just don't care.

I'm more troubled by the Steeler Nation. Loyalty went out the window with nothing more than the baseless accusations of a drunk sorority girl. I have four sisters and a daughter and I want to protect girls as much as anybody. That said there is just no reason to believe her.

Unfortunately Sugar, we live in a world where perception matters. Again, this is more then about "chasing tail". Ben had control over the entire situation. He can chase all the tail he wants. He needs to be more careful about the tail he chases because he is Ben Rothelisberger. The location also might help his cause. He has not shown good judgement in the tail he chased up to this point. He is not an unknown college kid any more. There are responsibilities that come with Ben's name now. The NFL, organization, and thousands of fans believe that he needs to live up to being a high profile figure. You may not see it that way. You know what, he will no longer be a Steeler if he can't live up to those standards. If he continues down the same path, he won't have a career in the NFL. It is a privilege to play in the NFL.

Ben will be suspended but it won't end there for many fans or possibly for the organization.

Thousands of Steelers fans live outside of Pittsburgh. I am one of those fans. I live in Philadelphia. Anyone who lives in Philly knows a lot of Eagles fans don't have scruples. I know how to tune out the morons and idiots. I know how to properly respond to fans opinions. There are many fans that can deal with ridicule and harassment of other fans. There are fans out there that can't stand or deal with the ridicule and harassment. There may be many bar fights or negative behavior as a result. I feel for the children that have to put up with the ridicule/harassment of other fans. It is not right but there are people like that out in this world.

The organization may stand to lose millions of dollars in business as a result. It will also lead some people to think the organization is no different then any other. Holmes was childish and deserved to be traded. Many people think Ben is in the same boat as Holmes. It is a contradiction to trade Holmes and keep Ben? I don't feel this way but many people do.

Burgh86, many valid points there, and easy to read, thanks!

I think those fans that insist that Ben needs to be traded because Holmes was traded need to consider that the situations are quite different, with Holmes having gotten arrested and even found guilty on multiple occasions. Additionally, he failed the "show me remorse" test. I think Ben hasn't quite yet, though he will have if he fubars again.

And I think the Steelers should be well protected against charges of racism (Ben treatment vs Holmes treatment) when one considers James Harrison's treatment (didn't he admit to choking his child's mother?).

But - you're right - it's more emotional than logical. So, it's pretty tough on Ben and the Steelers right now. I have a feeling that over the weeks, if it doesn't get worse for Ben because of new revelations, it will get better!

(I admit it, that's stolen from the weather forecaster's training manual, fall back forecast #14c: "Weather will improve later this week, unless it doesn't." !).

brothervad
04-17-2010, 03:48 PM
Sugar,

I am curious, why does the Steeler Nation have to blindly accept Ben's version? It's a person's perogative to question and have an opinion.

I have already stated in other threads that I don't know what happened that night.

People say that the DA not bringing charges means that he is all in the clear.

Did you listen to the DA? It was very clear from what was amassed that he couldn't bring a case, but you could tell that he WANTED to be able to bring a case.

I don't back a guy just because he can throw the ball and win Super Bowls. If that is your criteria then fine, but a lot of people have different criteria.

I don't have a problem with your support for Ben, but please quit thinking that you and your bretheren have the insight to Ben or how the Nation should or should not support someone.

At a minimum there are some serious character quesitons surrounding BB. We as fans have every right to ? and make our own decision about Ben.

The Nation is still strong...just some of us have serious questions surrounding one of the guys who is currently wearing the team's colors.

I apologize if you take this the wrong way, but I get sick of the thought police...you have a right to rant about it, but I have a right to rant about your rant :)

brothervad

PS one other thing...if the Steelers do trade Ben will you quit supporting the Steelers? My bet in no...you will be mad, but guess what you are a Steeler fan. And many years from now when Ben is long gone from the game you will still be a Steeler fan (more than likely)

please try to separate a Steeler fan from being a Ben fan. They are very different.

feltdizz
04-17-2010, 04:38 PM
Great points being made....

Brothervad I think you hit the nail on the head.

My frustration with Ben is the demand for our "benefit of the doubt" so to speak the last few off seasons.

It's so much easier to convince me Ben is a good guy when he isn't in the news. When he is donating time to special needs kids and helping police officers I'm all for it.

When he is making stupid decisions and putting the team and his future at risk how can fans expect the Nation to stand up for him time and time again?

The guy is a great athlete.. but so is Ron Artest and PacMan. I just wonder how many people would defend Carson Palmer or give him the benefit of the doubt if he had Ben's track record.

feltdizz
04-17-2010, 05:02 PM
Burgh86, many valid points there, and easy to read, thanks!

I think those fans that insist that Ben needs to be traded because Holmes was traded need to consider that the situations are quite different, with Holmes having gotten arrested and even found guilty on multiple occasions. Additionally, he failed the "show me remorse" test. I think Ben hasn't quite yet, though he will have if he fubars again.

And I think the Steelers should be well protected against charges of racism (Ben treatment vs Holmes treatment) when one considers James Harrison's treatment (didn't he admit to choking his child's mother?).

But - you're right - it's more emotional than logical. So, it's pretty tough on Ben and the Steelers right now. I have a feeling that over the weeks, if it doesn't get worse for Ben because of new revelations, it will get better!

(I admit it, that's stolen from the weather forecaster's training manual, fall back forecast #14c: "Weather will improve later this week, unless it doesn't." !).

Holmes definitely showed no remorse but we need to remember it's Twitter and people do stupid things when typing on a computer. :D

If Holmes had 3 or 4 more years on his contract he would still be here. It's not racism it's contract and player value. Let's keep it 100 on this suspensions and Rooney way. Ernie Holmes shot a cop in the foot for no reason at all and he didn't miss a practice. We aren't as pure as we think we are... Cedric Wilson was cut for not upholding the "Steeler way" but James Harrison chokes his girl and missed how many games?

If our WR depth looked like our QB depth Holmes would be at OTA's.

While I don't see racism many will... it's not like we got rid of Faneca right after he threw the FO under the bus... we didn't cut Reed even though he has a long list of drunk behavior. It's depth chartism IMO.... we had Ced and Holmes and while Holmes was much better then Ced with a 4 game suspension and a new contract coming up it was a logical decision that can be dressed up as putting our foot down.

Funny how we never put our foot down with Holmes after the first 5 incidents when he had a few years left on his contract. It's no different then "waiting til after the draft" with Ben's punishment but we deal Holmes for a 5th and some popcorn in the heat of the night like he was a vampire who would melt before sunrise.

Sugar
04-17-2010, 08:33 PM
Sugar,

I am curious, why does the Steeler Nation have to blindly accept Ben's version? It's a person's perogative to question and have an opinion.

I have already stated in other threads that I don't know what happened that night.

People say that the DA not bringing charges means that he is all in the clear.

Did you listen to the DA? It was very clear from what was amassed that he couldn't bring a case, but you could tell that he WANTED to be able to bring a case.

I don't back a guy just because he can throw the ball and win Super Bowls. If that is your criteria then fine, but a lot of people have different criteria.

I don't have a problem with your support for Ben, but please quit thinking that you and your bretheren have the insight to Ben or how the Nation should or should not support someone.

At a minimum there are some serious character quesitons surrounding BB. We as fans have every right to ? and make our own decision about Ben.

The Nation is still strong...just some of us have serious questions surrounding one of the guys who is currently wearing the team's colors.

I apologize if you take this the wrong way, but I get sick of the thought police...you have a right to rant about it, but I have a right to rant about your rant :)

brothervad

PS one other thing...if the Steelers do trade Ben will you quit supporting the Steelers? My bet in no...you will be mad, but guess what you are a Steeler fan. And many years from now when Ben is long gone from the game you will still be a Steeler fan (more than likely)

please try to separate a Steeler fan from being a Ben fan. They are very different.

Nobody has to accept Ben's verson, but why should they accept hers? She's the one that made the accusation, not him.

As for the DA, of course he wanted to bring a case. That would have been a career maker for him. I deal with these people all the time and just because someone is on the law enforcement side of things doesn't mean that they don't want advancement or at least an additional 15 minutes.

I back Ben for many reasons, including the fact that he is our QB, but that isn't the extent of it. In all of these threads, no one has given me a single reason why we should put any stock into a word the accuser said. Not one.

He has been extremely charitable with his police dogs among other things. He has refused to throw his underperforming OL under the bus and treats them like kings. He hasn't laid blame on the Defense that gave away 10 point leads in the fourth quarter like it was trendy. He always fights to win and doesn't give up on plays.

You are right about the fact that I am a Steelers fan first. I was a fan long before he came around and will be long after he's retired (Lambert is my all-time fav). That said, if the Steelers were to unload Ben simply because of appearances and without any real evidence it would be the worst lapse in judgment in the history of the franchise. I'll continue to pull for the Steelers, but will root for Ben aside from that.

I hope that makes sense.

anger 82&95
04-17-2010, 10:32 PM
I will still cheer Ben on the field regardless of all the talk and media blitz against him but off the field I can't vouch for him.

My question for those who think Ben is 100% clean and is being lynched by the media. Just wondering if this is due to honestly not being able to cheer him if he is the bar bully he is reported to he regarding women? I ask this because I read about how it was never established he touched her, he isn't responsible for checking her ID, he was never in the bathroom with her, he never said sex so the contact was of the friendly nature... The cop is resigning because he wants to open a school for the blind...

Its the stupid sh!t being said that makes me wonder if some fans are turning this latest episode into a G rated Pixar Cartoon when we know it's more like a NC 17 straight to DVD short film.
The main reason I still reserve judgment regarding Roethlisberger’s alleged guilt is the nature of the typical media presentation. The deductions are presented in sequential fashion so the observer, if not cautious, performs an almost pseudo-gestalt closure with the presented information. An example would be the conspiratorial slant granted to the “bully boys” incident in which an alleged blocking scheme was performed so Roethlisberger could perform his premeditated plan. The reader might assume that Roethlisberger and the “guards” had pre-scripted the scheme, but isn’t this hearsay predicated on a potentially spurious correlation? In fact, isn’t it possible that Roethlisberger had no idea that the blocking, if not entirely fictitious, was actually occurring? He may simply have entered the restroom on the assumption that the girl was interested in some form of physical contact, and had no idea what was transpiring outside. With regard to the erased “tapes” and quickly sanitized restroom; is it just possible, but somewhat mundane to assume that this might simply be normal protocol. Further, I read one account that claimed all four sorority sisters were heavily coerced into imbibing shots of alcohol; this seems statistically unlikely that all four would be abstaining as a cohort when is appears their goal was to become intoxicated. Incidentally, I coordinate and facilitate court-mandated domestic violence psychoeducation groups on a weekly basis. I am professionally aware of the compartmentalized cognitions and insidious sense of entitlement that certain men foist upon woman, but I still reserve judgment…

Captain Lemming
04-19-2010, 02:35 AM
While I don't see racism many will... it's not like we got rid of Faneca right after he threw the FO under the bus... we didn't cut Reed even though he has a long list of drunk behavior. It's depth chartism IMO....

"depth chartism"
It is the most evil of all bias
Also known as "the silent predudice"