I feel bad for Art Jr.

[SteelStallion]

I appreciate both sides with the fans.

On the one hand you have "...he wasn't convicted, he's a rare franchise qb, 26 long yrs between SBs, are you people crazy wanting to get rid of him?!..."

On the other hand you have "...disgusted, humiliated, embarrassed, out of touch with working class Pittsburgh values..."

I'm really torn. I was so psyched when he was drafted, then the SBs and I'm equally disgusted now. For me, personally, the game has to be about more than just winning. And if it's gonna be corrupted and dishonorable to the extreme then I can't follow it or contribute to it's success, much as I love it. And yes I'd take a lesser team with honor and dignity over SBs with embarrassment and humiliation. But that's just me.

It's a no-win, lose-lose, tough situation. And the whole world is watching and judging, and 'judging the judgement.' I don't think Ben will ever fully live this down and I wonder if it would be easier for him and everyone to start anew elsewhere. I don't know. But I genuinely sympathize with Art Jr. In only his first year as president of this storied sports franchise he has to make arguably the most difficult decisions in it's 80 year history. I wish him the best of luck, wisdom and peace as he confronts these ethical dilemnas.

[hawaiiansteel]

I don't feel sorry for him at all, i wish i was a part-owner of the Pittsburgh Steelers.

[stlrz d]

I appreciate both sides with the fans.

On the one hand you have "...he wasn't convicted, he's a rare franchise qb, 26 long yrs between SBs, are you people crazy wanting to get rid of him?!..."

On the other hand you have "...disgusted, humiliated, embarrassed, out of touch with working class Pittsburgh values..."

I'm really torn. I was so psyched when he was drafted, then the SBs and I'm equally disgusted now. For me, personally, the game has to be about more than just winning. And if it's gonna be corrupted and dishonorable to the extreme then I can't follow it or contribute to it's success, much as I love it. And yes I'd take a lesser team with honor and dignity over SBs with embarrassment and humiliation. But that's just me.

It's a no-win, lose-lose, tough situation. And the whole world is watching and judging, and 'judging the judgement.' I don't think Ben will ever fully live this down and I wonder if it would be easier for him and everyone to start anew elsewhere. I don't know. But I genuinely sympathize with Art Jr. In only his first year as president of this storied sports franchise he has to make arguably the most difficult decisions in it's 80 year history. I wish him the best of luck, wisdom and peace as he confronts these ethical dilemnas.

I don't believe anyone who ever makes a statement like that.

But that's just me.

As for being disgusted, I am disgusted with people who read the tabloid headlines, pass judgment and condemn someone who's not charged with anything.

If all those things happened the way the accuser and her friends said they did then Ben would be in jail. Period.

[SteelStallion]

I appreciate both sides with the fans.

On the one hand you have "...he wasn't convicted, he's a rare franchise qb, 26 long yrs between SBs, are you people crazy wanting to get rid of him?!..."

On the other hand you have "...disgusted, humiliated, embarrassed, out of touch with working class Pittsburgh values..."

I'm really torn. I was so psyched when he was drafted, then the SBs and I'm equally disgusted now. For me, personally, the game has to be about more than just winning. And if it's gonna be corrupted and dishonorable to the extreme then I can't follow it or contribute to it's success, much as I love it. And yes I'd take a lesser team with honor and dignity over SBs with embarrassment and humiliation. But that's just me.

It's a no-win, lose-lose, tough situation. And the whole world is watching and judging, and 'judging the judgement.' I don't think Ben will ever fully live this down and I wonder if it would be easier for him and everyone to start anew elsewhere. I don't know. But I genuinely sympathize with Art Jr. In only his first year as president of this storied sports franchise he has to make arguably the most difficult decisions in it's 80 year history. I wish him the best of luck, wisdom and peace as he confronts these ethical dilemnas.

I don't believe anyone who ever makes a statement like that.

But that's just me.

As for being disgusted, I am disgusted with people who read the tabloid headlines, pass judgment and condemn someone who's not charged with anything.

If all those things happened the way the accuser and her friends said they did then Ben would be in jail. Period.


I understand this view. I understand the counter views to "judgement and condemn" and "not charged with anything" which are 'blind exoneration' and 'he came damn close to being charged,'- three times in one year with degenerate cops blocking the door, and Cyril Wecht disputing that DNA enough to verify a human and a male somehow mysteriously could not make a match. However we feel, the situation isn't going away anytime soon, if ever. My take was more what it must be like for Art Jr to contend with something of this magnitude in only his first year. Has there ever been a franchise president who had a tougher issue, let alone in his first year?

[RussBII]

I appreciate both sides with the fans.

On the one hand you have "...he wasn't convicted, he's a rare franchise qb, 26 long yrs between SBs, are you people crazy wanting to get rid of him?!..."

On the other hand you have "...disgusted, humiliated, embarrassed, out of touch with working class Pittsburgh values..."

I'm really torn. I was so psyched when he was drafted, then the SBs and I'm equally disgusted now. For me, personally, the game has to be about more than just winning. And if it's gonna be corrupted and dishonorable to the extreme then I can't follow it or contribute to it's success, much as I love it. And yes I'd take a lesser team with honor and dignity over SBs with embarrassment and humiliation. But that's just me.

It's a no-win, lose-lose, tough situation. And the whole world is watching and judging, and 'judging the judgement.' I don't think Ben will ever fully live this down and I wonder if it would be easier for him and everyone to start anew elsewhere. I don't know. But I genuinely sympathize with Art Jr. In only his first year as president of this storied sports franchise he has to make arguably the most difficult decisions in it's 80 year history. I wish him the best of luck, wisdom and peace as he confronts these ethical dilemnas.

I don't believe anyone who ever makes a statement like that.

But that's just me.

As for being disgusted, I am disgusted with people who read the tabloid headlines, pass judgment and condemn someone who's not charged with anything.

If all those things happened the way the accuser and her friends said they did then Ben would be in jail. Period.

I think the whole "lose with honor" thing is a tough line to swallow too. However, I think this is past that. I've never really felt right about James Harrison after the domestic abuse thing. And the only way I'd feel ok about Ben now is if every single little detail about this case were false. I mean EVERYTHING. Regardless, he acted like a fratboy mega-douche, the type which I've steadfastly avoided for going on 10 years now.

I don't know if he can still lead my team (in my mind), but i know for sure he's not allowed anywhere near any female I love...

[fezziwig]

The prisons would be filled to the roof if you tossed in everyone that ever smacked their chick or got a girl drunk to try to get the booty. I really don't recall the facts of Harrison other than Rooney, sounded like a dumbass about it.
We can only speculate about Bens troubles or case. If he did do everything we hear about, he's a sad individual. If he is innocent then, he should be screaming he is not the monster everyone is out to make him.
In any event for those that can't believe some people could or would take the high road over winning then, I'm glad I just only need to deal with yinz on this board. I suppose Belicheat and the Cheatriots did the proper thing and you would enjoy the un-earned SB wins ?

[_SteeL_CurtaiN_]

If all those things happened the way the accuser and her friends said they did then Ben would be in jail. Period.

NO DNA

[BURGH86STEEL]

I appreciate both sides with the fans.

On the one hand you have "...he wasn't convicted, he's a rare franchise qb, 26 long yrs between SBs, are you people crazy wanting to get rid of him?!..."

On the other hand you have "...disgusted, humiliated, embarrassed, out of touch with working class Pittsburgh values..."

I'm really torn. I was so psyched when he was drafted, then the SBs and I'm equally disgusted now. For me, personally, the game has to be about more than just winning. And if it's gonna be corrupted and dishonorable to the extreme then I can't follow it or contribute to it's success, much as I love it. And yes I'd take a lesser team with honor and dignity over SBs with embarrassment and humiliation. But that's just me.

It's a no-win, lose-lose, tough situation. And the whole world is watching and judging, and 'judging the judgement.' I don't think Ben will ever fully live this down and I wonder if it would be easier for him and everyone to start anew elsewhere. I don't know. But I genuinely sympathize with Art Jr. In only his first year as president of this storied sports franchise he has to make arguably the most difficult decisions in it's 80 year history. I wish him the best of luck, wisdom and peace as he confronts these ethical dilemnas.

I don't believe anyone who ever makes a statement like that.

But that's just me.

As for being disgusted, I am disgusted with people who read the tabloid headlines, pass judgment and condemn someone who's not charged with anything.

If all those things happened the way the accuser and her friends said they did then Ben would be in jail. Period.

This is not simply about the tabloids. This is about the perception that Ben has place out in the world about himself. It is not a very good image right now. His actions do not come across very well to many people.

Guilty millionaires get off many times. If you don't believe that Ben did anything wrong that is your prerogative. The organization and the league feel differently. After the fact, I believe Ben feels he did something wrong. It appears that Ben will accept the punishment handed down because he acted poorly. Ben will no longer be a Steeler if continues to act like a freshmen in college.

[brothervad]

I have kept relatively quiet about this whole ordeal because truth is I have no belief that anyone has the truth on this...the only people that really know is Ben & the girl who were in that bathroom that night.


Let me say the following and be done with it:

1) I am not a Ben hater
2) I am not a Ben Fan -- I am a Steelers fan and that is all I am

I don't care about the indictment, the potential for Civil action or Ben's eventual vindication. If that happens, I will refer to the first paragraph above....only 2 people really know what truly happened that night.

Morally, it comes down to a 2 letter word. If she uttered at anytime..."No"...then it's Rape. Maybe not from legal statute, but morally.

If those were uttered as she claimed then that is what it is...since I can't prove it I will not claim that it is the fact.

But it is that close from separating what this man is and is not....

Say what you will...I don't care...I know a girl who was raped and tried to commit suicide because of it. If Ben did that I want him gone...since I can't provie it I will not speak of this any further.

But let's just say I won't talk much about his performance moving forward either. If they win, they win as a team and I will be happy. If they lose, they lose as a team and will lament it.

But my days of talking about Ben are over...because I really don't know if that two letter word was or was not uttered and I can't be as open minded as some on the board.
His football prowess and success seems a lot less important to me anymore and that is sad to me.

brothervad

[Sugar]

[quote="stlrz d":1zxc5rwu]
If all those things happened the way the accuser and her friends said they did then Ben would be in jail. Period.

NO DNA[/quote:1zxc5rwu]

And why is that, do you suppose?

[stlrz d]

I have kept relatively quiet about this whole ordeal because truth is I have no belief that anyone has the truth on this...the only people that really know is Ben & the girl who were in that bathroom that night.


Let me say the following and be done with it:

1) I am not a Ben hater
2) I am not a Ben Fan -- I am a Steelers fan and that is all I am

I don't care about the indictment, the potential for Civil action or Ben's eventual vindication. If that happens, I will refer to the first paragraph above....only 2 people really know what truly happened that night.

Morally, it comes down to a 2 letter word. If she uttered at anytime..."No"...then it's Rape. Maybe not from legal statute, but morally.

If those were uttered as she claimed then that is what it is...since I can't prove it I will not claim that it is the fact.

But it is that close from separating what this man is and is not....

Say what you will...I don't care...I know a girl who was raped and tried to commit suicide because of it. If Ben did that I want him gone...since I can't provie it I will not speak of this any further.

But let's just say I won't talk much about his performance moving forward either. If they win, they win as a team and I will be happy. If they lose, they lose as a team and will lament it.

But my days of talking about Ben are over...because I really don't know if that two letter word was or was not uttered and I can't be as open minded as some on the board.
His football prowess and success seems a lot less important to me anymore and that is sad to me.

brothervad

She was asked that night if she was raped and she said no. It's in the police report.

[Lebsteel]

I have kept relatively quiet about this whole ordeal because truth is I have no belief that anyone has the truth on this...the only people that really know is Ben & the girl who were in that bathroom that night.


Let me say the following and be done with it:

1) I am not a Ben hater
2) I am not a Ben Fan -- I am a Steelers fan and that is all I am

I don't care about the indictment, the potential for Civil action or Ben's eventual vindication. If that happens, I will refer to the first paragraph above....only 2 people really know what truly happened that night.

Morally, it comes down to a 2 letter word. If she uttered at anytime..."No"...then it's Rape. Maybe not from legal statute, but morally.

If those were uttered as she claimed then that is what it is...since I can't prove it I will not claim that it is the fact.

But it is that close from separating what this man is and is not....

Say what you will...I don't care...I know a girl who was raped and tried to commit suicide because of it. If Ben did that I want him gone...since I can't provie it I will not speak of this any further.

But let's just say I won't talk much about his performance moving forward either. If they win, they win as a team and I will be happy. If they lose, they lose as a team and will lament it.

But my days of talking about Ben are over...because I really don't know if that two letter word was or was not uttered and I can't be as open minded as some on the board.
His football prowess and success seems a lot less important to me anymore and that is sad to me.

brothervad

She was asked that night if she was raped and she said no. It's in the police report.
D, I wish that were true. Read the whole report...maybe she fabricated the police report, that is certainly a possibility. But also at the hospital she allegedly said that "a boy kind of raped me."

Face it...Ben is sleazy for even trying to make out with a 20 year old girl who was so drunk she didn't know what she was doing...how do you justify Ben doing that?

[brothervad]

I have kept relatively quiet about this whole ordeal because truth is I have no belief that anyone has the truth on this...the only people that really know is Ben & the girl who were in that bathroom that night.


Let me say the following and be done with it:

1) I am not a Ben hater
2) I am not a Ben Fan -- I am a Steelers fan and that is all I am

I don't care about the indictment, the potential for Civil action or Ben's eventual vindication. If that happens, I will refer to the first paragraph above....only 2 people really know what truly happened that night.

Morally, it comes down to a 2 letter word. If she uttered at anytime..."No"...then it's Rape. Maybe not from legal statute, but morally.

If those were uttered as she claimed then that is what it is...since I can't prove it I will not claim that it is the fact.

But it is that close from separating what this man is and is not....

Say what you will...I don't care...I know a girl who was raped and tried to commit suicide because of it. If Ben did that I want him gone...since I can't provie it I will not speak of this any further.

But let's just say I won't talk much about his performance moving forward either. If they win, they win as a team and I will be happy. If they lose, they lose as a team and will lament it.

But my days of talking about Ben are over...because I really don't know if that two letter word was or was not uttered and I can't be as open minded as some on the board.
His football prowess and success seems a lot less important to me anymore and that is sad to me.

brothervad

She was asked that night if she was raped and she said no. It's in the police report.

I know how you feel about this...again read my post...you don't know what happened...if she said no it's rape.

per the details given by the documents released even the Police officer who resigned today had the following discussion with Ben:

"We have a problem. This drunken bitch, drunk off her ass, is accusing Ben of rape," Officer Barravecchio said Sgt. Blash told him. "This pisses me off. Women can do this. It's[bull] but we've got to do this, we've got to do a report. This is BS. She's making [stuff] up."

But let's adopt the position (as it refers to later in the article) that she said that she wasn't raped. How much do you know about sexual assault and/or rape? Do you know that most rape victims are in a state of shock after the event occurs.

You want to believe it wasn't rape and that is fine...my point remains...if she said No at all, at all during the episode...it's rape. It's that close...and I am not asking you to believe it, but to pretend that it isn't that close is denial.

So regardless of what you believe...you have no facts...nor do I...but again re-read my post. It's not about legality...its about morality

I aplogize if this does not jibe with your belief on this...I am not asking you to change your mind. It is merely a statment and an opinion.

Bottomline....she said "No" once...it's rape.

Brothervad

[stlrz d]

I have kept relatively quiet about this whole ordeal because truth is I have no belief that anyone has the truth on this...the only people that really know is Ben & the girl who were in that bathroom that night.


Let me say the following and be done with it:

1) I am not a Ben hater
2) I am not a Ben Fan -- I am a Steelers fan and that is all I am

I don't care about the indictment, the potential for Civil action or Ben's eventual vindication. If that happens, I will refer to the first paragraph above....only 2 people really know what truly happened that night.

Morally, it comes down to a 2 letter word. If she uttered at anytime..."No"...then it's Rape. Maybe not from legal statute, but morally.

If those were uttered as she claimed then that is what it is...since I can't prove it I will not claim that it is the fact.

But it is that close from separating what this man is and is not....

Say what you will...I don't care...I know a girl who was raped and tried to commit suicide because of it. If Ben did that I want him gone...since I can't provie it I will not speak of this any further.

But let's just say I won't talk much about his performance moving forward either. If they win, they win as a team and I will be happy. If they lose, they lose as a team and will lament it.

But my days of talking about Ben are over...because I really don't know if that two letter word was or was not uttered and I can't be as open minded as some on the board.
His football prowess and success seems a lot less important to me anymore and that is sad to me.

brothervad

She was asked that night if she was raped and she said no. It's in the police report.

I know how you feel about this...again read my post...you don't know what happened...if she said no it's rape.

per the details given by the documents released even the Police officer who resigned today had the following discussion with Ben:

"We have a problem. This drunken bitch, drunk off her bad word, is accusing Ben of rape," Officer Barravecchio said Sgt. Blash told him. "This pisses me off. Women can do this. It's[bull] but we've got to do this, we've got to do a report. This is BS. She's making [stuff] up."

But let's adopt the position (as it refers to later in the article) that she said that she wasn't raped. How much do you know about sexual assault and/or rape? Do you know that most rape victims are in a state of shock after the event occurs.

You want to believe it wasn't rape and that is fine...my point remains...if she said No at all, at all during the episode...it's rape. It's that close...and I am not asking you to believe it, but to pretend that it isn't that close is denial.

So regardless of what you believe...you have no facts...nor do I...but again re-read my post. It's not about legality...its about morality

I aplogize if this does not jibe with your belief on this...I am not asking you to change your mind. It is merely a statment and an opinion.

Bottomline....she said "No" once...it's rape.

Brothervad

What she said is in the police report. She said she wasn't raped. The cop's statement leads me to believe that even he knew this was a bunch of BS. You can believe what you want, but she said she wasn't raped.

[brothervad]

Stlrzd,

Where did I say I know/believe?

The fact remains...if she said no, regardless of Police reports...it's rape.

The problem your having is accepting that it's a possibility.

I am saying to you that I don't know, but I am ready to believe it is possible. It is way too close for comfort.

You fail to even consider that rape victims feel embarrased and maybe even be in a state of denial.

She said No and then said she is not sure...from a legal standpoint makes you right...It wasn't rape from a legal standpoint.

All I am trying to say is if she did say no in that bathroom...it's rape. As I said before the girl I knew tried to commit suicide after the rape...she didn't acknowledge it at the beginnning either.

I am not trying to change anyone's mind...I am suggesting this is way way way too close and I feel a lot better being a Steeler fan, not a Ben fan.

I apologize if the potential for rape makes me uneasy, I guess I am just geared differently.

brothervad

[Sugar]

Stlrzd,

Where did I say I know/believe?

The fact remains...if she said no, regardless of Police reports...it's rape.

The problem your having is accepting that it's a possibility.

I am saying to you that I don't know, but I am ready to believe it is possible. It is way too close for comfort.

You fail to even consider that rape victims feel embarrased and maybe even be in a state of denial.

She said No and then said she is not sure...from a legal standpoint makes you right...It wasn't rape from a legal standpoint.

All I am trying to say is if she did say no in that bathroom...it's rape. As I said before the girl I knew tried to commit suicide after the rape...she didn't acknowledge it at the beginnning either.

I am not trying to change anyone's mind...I am suggesting this is way way way too close and I feel a lot better being a Steeler fan, not a Ben fan.

I apologize if the potential for rape makes me uneasy, I guess I am just geared differently.

brothervad

How do we know that she actually said no? Why, from her testimony of course. And why exactly should we believe her? Hmmm... not sure. Oh that's right, I have NO, N-O reason to believe her. She was drunk off her can and couldn't keep her story straight.

[stlrz d]

You're entitled to be whatever kind of fan you want to be. The fact that you keep bringing up something that happened in one instance in your life tells me you're a little too close to the subject to be completely objective.

I think you'd be hard pressed to find a man on here who doesn't know a woman who was raped or assaulted. Unfortunately it's something very wide spread. Women react differently to being raped. Some act as your friend did, some report the crime immediately and some are somewhere in-between. You are quite correct that if she said no at any point then it is rape.

But the fact remains, she went to the police and said she was assaulted. She was asked if she was raped and she said no.

[Lebsteel]

You're entitled to be whatever kind of fan you want to be. The fact that you keep bringing up something that happened in one instance in your life tells me you're a little too close to the subject to be completely objective.

I think you'd be hard pressed to find a man on here who doesn't know a woman who was raped or assaulted. Unfortunately it's something very wide spread. Women react differently to being raped. Some act as your friend did, some report the crime immediately and some are somewhere in-between. You are quite correct that if she said no at any point then it is rape.

But the fact remains, she went to the police and said she was assaulted. She was asked if she was raped and she said no.
D, in your view, why are the Steelers and the NFL planning to discipline Ben? What exactly did Ben do?

[Sugar]

You're entitled to be whatever kind of fan you want to be. The fact that you keep bringing up something that happened in one instance in your life tells me you're a little too close to the subject to be completely objective.

I think you'd be hard pressed to find a man on here who doesn't know a woman who was raped or assaulted. Unfortunately it's something very wide spread. Women react differently to being raped. Some act as your friend did, some report the crime immediately and some are somewhere in-between. You are quite correct that if she said no at any point then it is rape.

But the fact remains, she went to the police and said she was assaulted. She was asked if she was raped and she said no.
D, in your view, why are the Steelers and the NFL planning to discipline Ben? What exactly did Ben do?

I can't speak for D, but, IMO the Steelers and the NFL are embarassed and IF they discipline Ben it will simply be because of public outcry. The man hasn't been charged with anything at all and the allegations that he did things that brought disrepute to the NFL are purely based on specious testimony.

All the "C'mon man- you know he did it's" in the world don't change that fact.

[brothervad]

You're entitled to be whatever kind of fan you want to be. The fact that you keep bringing up something that happened in one instance in your life tells me you're a little too close to the subject to be completely objective.

I think you'd be hard pressed to find a man on here who doesn't know a woman who was raped or assaulted. Unfortunately it's something very wide spread. Women react differently to being raped. Some act as your friend did, some report the crime immediately and some are somewhere in-between. You are quite correct that if she said no at any point then it is rape.

But the fact remains, she went to the police and said she was assaulted. She was asked if she was raped and she said no.

Thanks Stlrz D,

I wouldn't call it too close...I don't know this girl anymore and haven't seen here for decades now. But I became a lot more aware of it after that moment.

I think where we are disconnecting here...is that I agree with you legally speaking, I just feel uneasy about the whole thing.

Personally, both you and I would rather be discussing how the Steelers could be reloading for the new season an not this. I apologize that I cannot cleanly break like you and others that if she reported it then it's fine.

Maybe that is my shortcoming to feel the way I do, but I am fine with it.

Regardless of how this plays out we are both Steeler fans first.

brothervad

[stlrz d]

You're entitled to be whatever kind of fan you want to be. The fact that you keep bringing up something that happened in one instance in your life tells me you're a little too close to the subject to be completely objective.

I think you'd be hard pressed to find a man on here who doesn't know a woman who was raped or assaulted. Unfortunately it's something very wide spread. Women react differently to being raped. Some act as your friend did, some report the crime immediately and some are somewhere in-between. You are quite correct that if she said no at any point then it is rape.

But the fact remains, she went to the police and said she was assaulted. She was asked if she was raped and she said no.
D, in your view, why are the Steelers and the NFL planning to discipline Ben? What exactly did Ben do?

I can't speak for D, but, IMO the Steelers and the NFL are embarassed and IF they discipline Ben it will simply be because of public outcry. The man hasn't been charged with anything at all and the allegations that he did things that brought disrepute to the NFL are purely based on specious testimony.

All the "C'mon man- you know he did it's" in the world don't change that fact.

*ding*

Any discipline imposed is merely a show for the fans of the NFL.

[stlrz d]

You're entitled to be whatever kind of fan you want to be. The fact that you keep bringing up something that happened in one instance in your life tells me you're a little too close to the subject to be completely objective.

I think you'd be hard pressed to find a man on here who doesn't know a woman who was raped or assaulted. Unfortunately it's something very wide spread. Women react differently to being raped. Some act as your friend did, some report the crime immediately and some are somewhere in-between. You are quite correct that if she said no at any point then it is rape.

But the fact remains, she went to the police and said she was assaulted. She was asked if she was raped and she said no.

Thanks Stlrz D,

I wouldn't call it too close...I don't know this girl anymore and haven't seen here for decades now. But I became a lot more aware of it after that moment.

I think where we are disconnecting here...is that I agree with you legally speaking, I just feel uneasy about the whole thing.

Personally, both you and I would rather be discussing how the Steelers could be reloading for the new season an not this. I apologize that I cannot cleanly break like you and others that if she reported it then it's fine.

Maybe that is my shortcoming to feel the way I do, but I am fine with it.

Regardless of how this plays out we are both Steeler fans first.

brothervad

No worries man. The reason I can "cleanly break" from it is because I believe that humans are generally good and I simply don't believe anyone would be as brazen as to think they could get away with all of this in a public place in front of all kinds of witnesses.

That and the DTF buttons, conflicting reports from the sorority sisters, the fact that a cop right on the scene said that the accuser was making things up in her claims, the fact that the accuser said "no" when asked if she was raped, Willie's statement that this girl was doing everything she could to get Ben's attention, etc.

[Lebsteel]

[quote="stlrz d":qmjwvha2]You're entitled to be whatever kind of fan you want to be. The fact that you keep bringing up something that happened in one instance in your life tells me you're a little too close to the subject to be completely objective.

I think you'd be hard pressed to find a man on here who doesn't know a woman who was raped or assaulted. Unfortunately it's something very wide spread. Women react differently to being raped. Some act as your friend did, some report the crime immediately and some are somewhere in-between. You are quite correct that if she said no at any point then it is rape.

But the fact remains, she went to the police and said she was assaulted. She was asked if she was raped and she said no.
D, in your view, why are the Steelers and the NFL planning to discipline Ben? What exactly did Ben do?

I can't speak for D, but, IMO the Steelers and the NFL are embarassed and IF they discipline Ben it will simply be because of public outcry. The man hasn't been charged with anything at all and the allegations that he did things that brought disrepute to the NFL are purely based on specious testimony.

All the "C'mon man- you know he did it's" in the world don't change that fact.

*ding*

Any discipline imposed is merely a show for the fans of the NFL.[/quote:qmjwvha2]

Wow! Really? Do you believe the Air Force is storing aliens in Hangar 18? Man never walked on the moon? The cow jumped over the moon? Just wondering....really, no sarcasm at all.

Maybe Ben is a true saint, is totally innocent of ANY wrongdoing and is taking all these horrible accusations without saying a word so that he can protect the Steelers and the NFL? If that is it, then I am incredibly sorry for believing that he MAY have some small bit of responsibility for this unfortunate incident and damn the Rooneys and the NFL for making Ben the fall guy.

[stlrz d]

[quote="stlrz d":3nncqjdo]You're entitled to be whatever kind of fan you want to be. The fact that you keep bringing up something that happened in one instance in your life tells me you're a little too close to the subject to be completely objective.

I think you'd be hard pressed to find a man on here who doesn't know a woman who was raped or assaulted. Unfortunately it's something very wide spread. Women react differently to being raped. Some act as your friend did, some report the crime immediately and some are somewhere in-between. You are quite correct that if she said no at any point then it is rape.

But the fact remains, she went to the police and said she was assaulted. She was asked if she was raped and she said no.
D, in your view, why are the Steelers and the NFL planning to discipline Ben? What exactly did Ben do?

I can't speak for D, but, IMO the Steelers and the NFL are embarassed and IF they discipline Ben it will simply be because of public outcry. The man hasn't been charged with anything at all and the allegations that he did things that brought disrepute to the NFL are purely based on specious testimony.

All the "C'mon man- you know he did it's" in the world don't change that fact.

*ding*

Any discipline imposed is merely a show for the fans of the NFL.

Wow! Really? Do you believe the Air Force is storing aliens in Hangar 18? Man never walked on the moon? The cow jumped over the moon? Just wondering....really, no sarcasm at all.[/quote:3nncqjdo]

No. I don't believe the air force is storing aliens, etc.


Maybe Ben is a true saint, is totally innocent of ANY wrongdoing and is taking all these horrible accusations without saying a word so that he can protect the Steelers and the NFL? If that is it, then I am incredibly sorry for believing that he MAY have some small bit of responsibility for this unfortunate incident and damn the Rooneys and the NFL for making Ben the fall guy.

Now you're gettin' it. ;)

[JAR]

[quote="stlrz d":3r42gh0o]You're entitled to be whatever kind of fan you want to be. The fact that you keep bringing up something that happened in one instance in your life tells me you're a little too close to the subject to be completely objective.

I think you'd be hard pressed to find a man on here who doesn't know a woman who was raped or assaulted. Unfortunately it's something very wide spread. Women react differently to being raped. Some act as your friend did, some report the crime immediately and some are somewhere in-between. You are quite correct that if she said no at any point then it is rape.

But the fact remains, she went to the police and said she was assaulted. She was asked if she was raped and she said no.

Thanks Stlrz D,

I wouldn't call it too close...I don't know this girl anymore and haven't seen here for decades now. But I became a lot more aware of it after that moment.

I think where we are disconnecting here...is that I agree with you legally speaking, I just feel uneasy about the whole thing.

Personally, both you and I would rather be discussing how the Steelers could be reloading for the new season an not this. I apologize that I cannot cleanly break like you and others that if she reported it then it's fine.

Maybe that is my shortcoming to feel the way I do, but I am fine with it.

Regardless of how this plays out we are both Steeler fans first.

brothervad

No worries man. The reason I can "cleanly break" from it is because I believe that humans are generally good and I simply don't believe anyone would be as brazen as to think they could get away with all of this in a public place in front of all kinds of witnesses.

That and the DTF buttons, conflicting reports from the sorority sisters, the fact that a cop right on the scene said that the accuser was making things up in her claims, the fact that the accuser said "no" when asked if she was raped, Willie's statement that this girl was doing everything she could to get Ben's attention, etc.[/quote:3r42gh0o]


"We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~ Immanual Kant

:D :)

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_EgcAqWkpjMk/SmaF66NL44I/AAAAAAAAAMw/_PcLmf0B9VU/s400/roethlisberger_dog.jpg

http://i.cdn.turner.com/sivault/multimedia/photo_gallery/1002/athletes.and.their.dogs/images/Ben-Roethlisberger-01700870.jpg

[feltdizz]

Stlrzd,

Where did I say I know/believe?

The fact remains...if she said no, regardless of Police reports...it's rape.

The problem your having is accepting that it's a possibility.

I am saying to you that I don't know, but I am ready to believe it is possible. It is way too close for comfort.

You fail to even consider that rape victims feel embarrased and maybe even be in a state of denial.

She said No and then said she is not sure...from a legal standpoint makes you right...It wasn't rape from a legal standpoint.

All I am trying to say is if she did say no in that bathroom...it's rape. As I said before the girl I knew tried to commit suicide after the rape...she didn't acknowledge it at the beginnning either.

I am not trying to change anyone's mind...I am suggesting this is way way way too close and I feel a lot better being a Steeler fan, not a Ben fan.

I apologize if the potential for rape makes me uneasy, I guess I am just geared differently.

brothervad

I knew a girl in college who lived in my complex and was raped by a guy who she said was a member of the homeless shelter I worked for...

When I went to report the name of the fellow my superior told me she would not report it to the police or help me.. I quit on the spot.

Rape is a very tough subject and I would never take the side of the guy based on winning football games or the theory of gold digging. This is way too touchy for me to give Ben the benefit of the doubt. I'd rather sit back, have my opinions and hope for the best.

blindly defending the QB is off the table... we are talking about Ben, off the field, with drinks in his system.. I have no idea how good or bad he is when in these situations.

[feltdizz]

[quote="stlrz d":7n4f3gzt]You're entitled to be whatever kind of fan you want to be. The fact that you keep bringing up something that happened in one instance in your life tells me you're a little too close to the subject to be completely objective.

I think you'd be hard pressed to find a man on here who doesn't know a woman who was raped or assaulted. Unfortunately it's something very wide spread. Women react differently to being raped. Some act as your friend did, some report the crime immediately and some are somewhere in-between. You are quite correct that if she said no at any point then it is rape.

But the fact remains, she went to the police and said she was assaulted. She was asked if she was raped and she said no.

Thanks Stlrz D,

I wouldn't call it too close...I don't know this girl anymore and haven't seen here for decades now. But I became a lot more aware of it after that moment.

I think where we are disconnecting here...is that I agree with you legally speaking, I just feel uneasy about the whole thing.

Personally, both you and I would rather be discussing how the Steelers could be reloading for the new season an not this. I apologize that I cannot cleanly break like you and others that if she reported it then it's fine.

Maybe that is my shortcoming to feel the way I do, but I am fine with it.

Regardless of how this plays out we are both Steeler fans first.

brothervad

No worries man. The reason I can "cleanly break" from it is because I believe that humans are generally good and I simply don't believe anyone would be as brazen as to think they could get away with all of this in a public place in front of all kinds of witnesses.

That and the DTF buttons, conflicting reports from the sorority sisters, the fact that a cop right on the scene said that the accuser was making things up in her claims, the fact that the accuser said "no" when asked if she was raped, Willie's statement that this girl was doing everything she could to get Ben's attention, etc.


"We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~ Immanual Kant

:D :)

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_EgcAqWkpjMk/SmaF66NL44I/AAAAAAAAAMw/_PcLmf0B9VU/s400/roethlisberger_dog.jpg

http://i.cdn.turner.com/sivault/multimedia/photo_gallery/1002/athletes.and.their.dogs/images/Ben-Roethlisberger-01700870.jpg[/quote:7n4f3gzt]

but what happens if you dig in his back yard and find mass graves? LOL!!!

[stlrz d]

Stlrzd,

Where did I say I know/believe?

The fact remains...if she said no, regardless of Police reports...it's rape.

The problem your having is accepting that it's a possibility.

I am saying to you that I don't know, but I am ready to believe it is possible. It is way too close for comfort.

You fail to even consider that rape victims feel embarrased and maybe even be in a state of denial.

She said No and then said she is not sure...from a legal standpoint makes you right...It wasn't rape from a legal standpoint.

All I am trying to say is if she did say no in that bathroom...it's rape. As I said before the girl I knew tried to commit suicide after the rape...she didn't acknowledge it at the beginnning either.

I am not trying to change anyone's mind...I am suggesting this is way way way too close and I feel a lot better being a Steeler fan, not a Ben fan.

I apologize if the potential for rape makes me uneasy, I guess I am just geared differently.

brothervad

I knew a girl in college who lived in my complex and was raped by a guy who she said was a member of the homeless shelter I worked for...

When I went to report the name of the fellow my superior told me she would not report it to the police or help me.. I quit on the spot.

Rape is a very tough subject and I would never take the side of the guy based on winning football games or the theory of gold digging. This is way too touchy for me to give Ben the benefit of the doubt. I'd rather sit back, have my opinions and hope for the best.

blindly defending the QB is off the table... we are talking about Ben, off the field, with drinks in his system.. I have no idea how good or bad he is when in these situations.

Yet you've got no problem having a negative opinion of him.

:roll:

[SteelStallion]

Like I was trying to say, it's a no-win, lose-lose proposition:


http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/10108/1051355-66.stm



As the CEO of an iconic family-run business, a business that happens to be the most successful single entity in the most successful league enterprise in the history of American sport, Art Rooney II has at his disposal a nuclear arsenal of brainpower.

He's got lawyers, accountants, communications experts, public relations wizards, marketing masters, spin doctors, head doctors, physicians, surgeons, internists, outurnists and a genealogy that represents little less than an intellectual Fort Knox of accumulated knowledge on the topic of how to run a professional football franchise.

But what he doesn't have, and what he really needs, is one of those little 5x7 index cards with "If This ..." on one side and "Then That ..." on the other. The kind coaches refer to when they can't remember whether it's better to go for one point or two at specific points relative the scoreboard's illuminated arithmetic.

No, Art II can't sit down at his desk overlooking an expanse of practice fields near the end of South Water Street and run his finger over a chart until he comes to "Super Bowl MVP wideout, alleged to have thrown a full glass at a female at 2:30 a.m., tweets that the fans don't cut his check and might want to consider offing themselves while he plans idly to 'wake and bake' despite previous drug violation," and then match it with the corresponding part of the chart, "trade him to the Jets for a fifth-round pick."

Decisions like what to do with a bonehead like Holmes, much less what to do with an evident serial misogynist All-Pro quarterback like Big Bad Ben Roethlisberger, are viciously complicated and aren't made a lick easier even by any of the expertise available to a third generation of Rooney stewardship.

The Steelers, in fact, could be led deftly into their NFL future by fourth and fifth generations of Rooneys without encountering a decision as difficult as the one Roethlisberger presents.

If they separate themselves from No. 7, they risk competitive irrelevance for an indeterminate period, during which some portion of their fan base might be irretrievably alienated. If they don't, they risk a turbulent future during which the face of the organization is better known for another exposed body part, all amid a climate where the franchise with the greatest percentage of female fans is likely to take a thunderous public relations hit. That portion of the season-ticket base with college-age daughters is already at risk.

You want to make that call?

Plenty of people do, and, as usual in the post-modern Era of the Loud, the middle ground has been abandoned. The afflicted either want nothing to do with the Steelers so long as 7 is whipping passes, or they accuse anyone who is the least bit uncomfortable with a 28-year-old quarterback who would follow a vulnerable, saloon-faced college girl into a bathroom of being psychotic to the point of failing to grasp the urgency of Any Given Sunday.

Before Holmes was traded, someone called the Subway Nightly Sports Call to complain that I'd used the term "baggage" in relation to the aforementioned bonehead.

"What baggage?" our guest wondered.

"Well, he was arrested twice before he even got the uniform on," I said.

"Hey," he said. "Your memory must be short-lived. These guys won us the Super Bowl. What does baggage have to do with anything?"

Sorry. The right question is, "What does the Super Bowl, or anyone's contribution to it, have to do with anything?"

Not to quibble, but what have six Lombardi Trophies done for Pittsburgh? Have they saved a single manufacturing job? Have they arrested infant mortality? Have they erased the city's budget deficit? The goal is a productive, forward thinking, civil society around here, not the seasonal consolation prize of embarrassing the Cleveland Browns, when possible.

What the Steelers have done for much of the past 40 years is afforded their fans in the city and worldwide some sense of pride, nothing more and certainly nothing less, but pride is a little more complicated and a little more delicate than what can be described by the club's situation within the relatively silly politics of the AFC North.

Somebody's going to be very, um, unprideful, the next time the quarterback is implicated in this kind of creepy mess. He already has had to stand next to Mike Tomlin and Kevin Colbert and swear he wouldn't put himself in this position again, and within eight months, put himself in this position again.

Any guesses on how many times he did it without getting caught?

I wouldn't want to be in Art II's position, and, regardless of what he decides, he'll do it with more information and better instincts than I. But some NFL team is going to be judged as the enabler of the next boozy assault on a defenseless female, and a lot of people in this town would prefer it's not the Steelers.

The Steelers can and should get out from under this guy. They can keep Ben and assist in his attempted rehabilitation, but that's a bathroom I wouldn't walk into.


Gene Collier: gcollier@post-gazette.com.


Read more: http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/10108/10 ... z0lTfGmaA8 (http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/10108/1051355-66.stm#ixzz0lTfGmaA8)

[feltdizz]

Yet you've got no problem having a negative opinion of him.

:roll:
No problem? :wft LOL!!! More like no choice!!!

Please list the positives in this incident. I can think of 2...

1) No charges...
2) cutting the mullet...
3)
4)
5)

[BlackJackGold]

If anyone actually reads the GBI files they will see that there is little inconsistency in the various witnesses outside of pig ben's entourage.

pig ben's entourage is where the glaring inconsistencies occur.

From, "Oh that girl? She fell and hit her head" to "I was out on the dance floor most of the time."