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Dee Dub
04-06-2010, 07:17 PM
Why are there so many Steeler fans who want the Steelers to draft an OLB (actually a tweener who would need to learn this position in the NFL), when the team currently has two of the best in the game? When their biggest needs (weakest link), on the defensive side of the ball is CB and ILB?

Yeah I too think Brandon Graham is a beast and no doubt he is going to be a tremendous football player but he isnt what this team needs for the next couple of years.

Sorry folks James Harrison isnt going anywhere for the next two seasons at a minimum. You can allude to his age all you want. His age really isnt any reflection of his actual football playing age. Having only been a starter for the past 3 years he hasnt had a heavy dose of mileage piled up on his body. Combine this with his off season work out program and the huge contract he signed last off season, he isnt going anywhere. And I dont see him slowing down at least for 2 more years.

Sorry not gonna happen. :nono And for good reason too.

D Rock
04-06-2010, 07:21 PM
:Clap

SteelHead
04-06-2010, 07:42 PM
Although I agree OLD in rd.1 would be a bit of a shocker I'd love to see us move up in the second to take Jerry Hughes from Texas Christian. Let him sit behind Silverback for 2 yrs. , let him learn how to play standing up , let him be a special teams ace , then unleash him.

Northern_Blitz
04-06-2010, 07:43 PM
I'm not an advocate of an OLB personally.

But, I think the rational goes like this:

JH is 32. If there is no football next year, he will be 34 next season. He didn't register a sack in the last 6 games of the season. It would be good to get a player who can learn now and step in later. They might also argue that we have no depth at OLB.

Personally, I think we already have a potential replacement on the roster (Timmons). If Harrison or Wood got hurt, I think we move LT to OLB, and Foote to ILB. I would not draft an OLB early this year (unless they were by far the BPA).

Dee Dub
04-06-2010, 08:11 PM
...JH is 32. If there is no football next year, he will be 34 next season. He didn't register a sack in the last 6 games of the season.

Do you think that is a result of Harrison's play falling off or the fact that after putting up a defensive player of the year award season the year before teams geared/game planned to stop him?...and also not having Troy on the field for teams to have to stop as well??

WoodleyofTroy
04-06-2010, 08:15 PM
If Harrison or Woodley go down, expect another repeat of last season when Polamalu went down. That DB we draft, will get abused without a pass rush. Unless we are talking Earl Thomas or Joe Haden. But no way do I want Kyle Wilson over Graham, who will be the much better pro, for the sake of drafting need.

The Graham wagon would like to see him over the likes of Wilson, Iupati, Pouncey, etc. And for good reason. I'm sure, like mentioned above, if Thomas, Haden, and McClain were available, they'd want them.

So in other words, they are looking at him being the BEST PLAYER AVAILABLE, not because he's a Outside Linebacker. I don't think Harrison or Woodley have anything to do with it.

D Rock
04-06-2010, 08:24 PM
first and second round picks should be guys that can start this year or next.

It would be like Ziggy Hood again. Everyone likes him as a player, but he probably wont be a starter through two seasons. I bet a lot of people wish Darius Butler had been the pick there instead.

Get depth in the middle rounds.

WoodleyofTroy
04-06-2010, 08:29 PM
first and second round picks should be guys that can start this year or next.

It would be like Ziggy Hood again. Everyone likes him as a player, but he probably wont be a starter through two seasons. I bet a lot of people wish Darius Butler had been the pick there instead.

Get depth in the middle rounds.

First round picks should be making Pro Bowls with All Pro attributes. Shouldn't matter how long it takes.

Northern_Blitz
04-07-2010, 08:00 AM
[quote="Northern_Blitz":3q1wlzsa]...JH is 32. If there is no football next year, he will be 34 next season. He didn't register a sack in the last 6 games of the season.

Do you think that is a result of Harrison's play falling off or the fact that after putting up a defensive player of the year award season the year before teams geared/game planned to stop him?...and also not having Troy on the field for teams to have to stop as well??[/quote:3q1wlzsa]

Hopefully it's mostly Troy being gone, or us asking JH to do different things. He is getting older though, and even though he doesn't have alot of mileage, trying to run through OTs game in and game out must take a toll on the body.


first and second round picks should be guys that can start this year or next.

It would be like Ziggy Hood again. Everyone likes him as a player, but he probably wont be a starter through two seasons. I bet a lot of people wish Darius Butler had been the pick there instead.

Get depth in the middle rounds.

I'm glad that we don't usually pick this way. "Draft guys that can start this year" = "Drafting for need". I like that we usually take BPA. In fact we usually go out of our way to bring in vets so that we don't need have any glaring holes to free us up for the BPA. That way we don't have to rely on inexperiance. I also think one of the reasons we have so few 1st round busts is because we don't need them to be saviours as rookies. We let them develop, which generally makes them better.

Oviedo
04-07-2010, 08:20 AM
Graham fills a legitimate need to plug a lack of depth at OLB which is the most importnat position in LeBeau's defense. Keep inmind LeBeau's defense is first and foremost about pressuring the QB and sacking him or forcing mistakes. Probably in priority it is:

1. Stop the run and force the opponent to become one dimensional
2. Pressure the QB and sack him or force a mistake
3. Get an INT. Getting an INT is directly impacted by #2

Graham will make a more immediate and direct impact that a DB from a college that ran up double digit leads early on oppoents and forced them to throw almost every down. Easy to play DB in that situation and pad your stats when you know the next play will be a pass.

I stress again that James Harrison had 2 sacks in the final 8 games. That is a huge concern and Graham provides insurance if Harrison goes Jason Gildon on us.

This draft is also very deep at DB so you can add to the defensive backfield in Round 2 and 3 and still get good players. You won't get a Brandon Graham in Rounds 2 and 3.

BURGH86STEEL
04-07-2010, 08:20 AM
I don't think there are to many positions that the Steelers won't consider in the draft. Can never have enough depth at any. What if they can't resign Woodley? What if Harrison is injured?

I think any position outside of QB will be on the table if they can't draft the Oline or CB they want/need.

steeler_fan_in_t.o.
04-07-2010, 08:39 AM
The common perception is that Graham is the best pass rusher in the draft. He would be slotted into a position with age and depth concerns. He has the ability to be an immediate impact player - there might not be room on the roster for him to have the impact but he does have the tools to - and also be a long range star.

I have not seen enough of any of these guys to make an informed decision, but at least I can see the reasoning behind the wish.

As for all of the guys who keep talking about the effect of "when Troy went down" I think that you minimizing the Aaron Smith injury. AS has long been the most underrated player on this D and probably the whole team. Steeler fans will talk about how important he is but then ignore the impact of his absence. If he is recovered that is a huge improvement to last year's soft D.

papillon
04-07-2010, 08:55 AM
Three letters my friend...BPA

It's the way the Steelers function on draft day and I don't see that changing this year. Now, if someone like Earl Thomas with a mid to high first round grade is there along with Graham, then they'll take the player they feel best fills a need.

Pappy

ramblinjim
04-07-2010, 09:19 AM
Steeler fan in TO: As for all of the guys who keep talking about the effect of "when Troy went down" I think that you minimizing the Aaron Smith injury. AS has long been the most underrated player on this D and probably the whole team. Steeler fans will talk about how important he is but then ignore the impact of his absence. If he is recovered that is a huge improvement to last year's soft D.

:Bow :Clap

I completely agree with you here, AS being back this year will help tremendously on our D as will Troy.

The Steelers will take their BPA regardless of who it is once their pick is up. This draft is deep enough that most of the teams should get a fantastic player in the first round, even Oakland.

RuthlessBurgher
04-07-2010, 09:27 AM
Although I agree OLD in rd.1 would be a bit of a shocker I'd love to see us move up in the second to take Jerry Hughes from Texas Christian. Let him sit behind Silverback for 2 yrs. , let him learn how to play standing up , let him be a special teams ace , then unleash him.

I've mentioned this exact scenario before. I really like Hughes, and if he falls out of the first round, and we could use our 2nd and 3rd round pick to trade up with St. Louis or Detroit at the top of round 2 to get him, that would be like getting essentially a second pick with a first round grade. If we were able to get, say, Earl Thomas at #18 on day one, then trade up for Jerry Hughes early on day two, I would go to bed on Friday smiling, knowing that we got 2 excellent impact players on defense, and still have 7 more picks on day 3 to acquire depth across the board.

ANPSTEEL
04-07-2010, 10:10 AM
Why are there so many Steeler fans who want the Steelers to draft an OLB (actually a tweener who would need to learn this position in the NFL), when the team currently has two of the best in the game? When their biggest needs (weakest link), on the defensive side of the ball is CB and ILB?

Yeah I too think Brandon Graham is a beast and no doubt he is going to be a tremendous football player but he isnt what this team needs for the next couple of years.

Sorry folks James Harrison isnt going anywhere for the next two seasons at a minimum. You can allude to his age all you want. His age really isnt any reflection of his actual football playing age. Having only been a starter for the past 3 years he hasnt had a heavy dose of mileage piled up on his body. Combine this with his off season work out program and the huge contract he signed last off season, he isnt going anywhere. And I dont see him slowing down at least for 2 more years.

Sorry not gonna happen. :nono And for good reason too.

I am with you 100% on this-

I'd add interior OLine on the priority list as well.

So, if your most pressing needs are at
CB
across the DLine
Interior OLine

Why would you draft a guy, albeit a very good player, who is going to be a transition player- no matter where you put him- and those positions are already filled with top notch talent?

The team has to come out of rounds 1 or 2 with a CB & an Lineman- either side.

The only exception to this, imo, is if they think they can get Owusu-Ansah in the third.

Burnett is a Nickel back
Lewis is a FS- maybe SS. neither are legitimate starting corners. (you could put them there- but you'll end up with similar results as last season... stop gap at best.)
Add to this- I'm pretty certain, ike is in his last year under contract.

Dee Dub
04-07-2010, 10:38 AM
Graham fills a legitimate need to plug a lack of depth at OLB which is the most importnat position in LeBeau's defense. Keep inmind LeBeau's defense is first and foremost about pressuring the QB and sacking him or forcing mistakes. Probably in priority it is:

1. Stop the run and force the opponent to become one dimensional
2. Pressure the QB and sack him or force a mistake
3. Get an INT. Getting an INT is directly impacted by #2

Graham will make a more immediate and direct impact that a DB from a college that ran up double digit leads early on oppoents and forced them to throw almost every down. Easy to play DB in that situation and pad your stats when you know the next play will be a pass.

I stress again that James Harrison had 2 sacks in the final 8 games. That is a huge concern and Graham provides insurance if Harrison goes Jason Gildon on us.

This draft is also very deep at DB so you can add to the defensive backfield in Round 2 and 3 and still get good players. You won't get a Brandon Graham in Rounds 2 and 3.

Come on Ovi! This is all about who you want...not what is best for the Steelers. :roll: If it's depth we need at OLB then by all means get depth where depth belongs....the later rounds.

Drafting Graham with the first round pick is wrong when you consider it will take him a while to learn the new position and he wont even really make much of an impact for at least two years. The Steelers are not going to take Harrison or Woodley off the field for nothing more than an occasional breather.

Dee Dub
04-07-2010, 10:41 AM
Is there really anyone here who really thinks Graham will be more valuable and make more of an immediate impact than say ILB Sean Weatherspoon? The Steelers have a legitimate need at ILB with Farrior's game on the decline.

NW Steeler
04-07-2010, 10:48 AM
[quote="Northern_Blitz"

Personally, I think we already have a potential replacement on the roster (Timmons). If Harrison or Wood got hurt, I think we move LT to OLB, and Foote to ILB. I would not draft an OLB early this year (unless they were by far the BPA).[/quote]

So you want to see Foote and Farrior as our two starting ILB's? Yeesh, not me. Timmons needs to stay inside, we need the depth at the OLB position. Whether or not we should pick Graham in the first is debatable, but it is a pick that will help them, probably in the short term as well as down the line.

Oviedo
04-07-2010, 10:55 AM
Graham fills a legitimate need to plug a lack of depth at OLB which is the most importnat position in LeBeau's defense. Keep inmind LeBeau's defense is first and foremost about pressuring the QB and sacking him or forcing mistakes. Probably in priority it is:

1. Stop the run and force the opponent to become one dimensional
2. Pressure the QB and sack him or force a mistake
3. Get an INT. Getting an INT is directly impacted by #2

Graham will make a more immediate and direct impact that a DB from a college that ran up double digit leads early on oppoents and forced them to throw almost every down. Easy to play DB in that situation and pad your stats when you know the next play will be a pass.

I stress again that James Harrison had 2 sacks in the final 8 games. That is a huge concern and Graham provides insurance if Harrison goes Jason Gildon on us.

This draft is also very deep at DB so you can add to the defensive backfield in Round 2 and 3 and still get good players. You won't get a Brandon Graham in Rounds 2 and 3.

Come on Ovi! This is all about who you want...not what is best for the Steelers. :roll: If it's depth we need at OLB then by all means get depth where depth belongs....the later rounds.

Drafting Graham with the first round pick is wrong when you consider it will take him a while to learn the new position and he wont even really make much of an impact for at least two years. The Steelers are not going to take Harrison or Woodley off the field for nothing more than an occasional breather.

Who I want is CJ Spiller or Ryan Matthews because I think we have a potential train wreck at RB if Mendy gets hurt.

Graham is absolutely who we need for the reasons I identified. Do you think any OL or DB you draft in Round 1 won't take a year too? Have you ever seen a defensive player Lebeau drafted who doesn't take a year?

If the "year" thing bothers you you had better be clamoring for an offensive skill player because Arians gets those guys on the field as rookies as opposed to LeBeau.

Iupati is the only rookie OL who would have a chance to start.

ANPSTEEL
04-07-2010, 10:56 AM
Is there really anyone here who really thinks Graham will be more valuable and make more of an immediate impact than say ILB Sean Weatherspoon? The Steelers have a legitimate need at ILB with Farrior's game on the decline.

I think most people's "issue" with Weatherspoon- is why draft Timmons 2.0??

Like Graham- I'm sure he'd be an excellent player- but I think he is best suited outside v. inside... but again- he's gonna sit behind other guys- and there is depth at that position.

Farrior goes down by injury or coaches decision, Timmons moves to Buck- & Foote is at Mack. Fox can fill both roles.

Harrison goes down. Timmons moves to ROLB. Foote takes Mack.
Woodley goest down. Harrison moves to LOLB. Timmons takes ROLB. Foote takes Mack.

Fox can probably play 3 of the LB positions.

All my point here is- why draft a guy @ 18 in a position that has skill & depth- when you have:
1 position with little skill & no quantifiable depth. (CB)
Another defensive position with skill but almost no depth. (DE)
2 offensive line spots with limited skill and no quantifiable depth. (C & RG)

Dee Dub
04-07-2010, 11:08 AM
Who I want is CJ Spiller or Ryan Matthews because I think we have a potential train wreck at RB if Mendy gets hurt.

Ok then draft a back up RB in a back up Rb spot.....not at 18.


Graham is absolutely who we need for the reasons I identified. Do you think any OL or DB you draft in Round 1 won't take a year too? Have you ever seen a defensive player Lebeau drafted who doesn't take a year?

I disagree with you. I think a guy like Kyle Wilson can come in and start right away. I think Wilson is going to end up very close to what a Darrell Revis is or What Leon Hall is. And I also think Sean Weatherspoon would be a better fit at ILB than Graham is at OLB for the Steelers.

Dee Dub
04-07-2010, 11:11 AM
I think most people's "issue" with Weatherspoon- is why draft Timmons 2.0??

Disagree!! Weatherspoon is a completely different football player and in a 3-4 is ideally suited inside. He can cover and is a tremendous leader. He can run a defense....I dont think that is something Timmons can do.

NW Steeler
04-07-2010, 11:16 AM
The talk about Weatherpoon has cooled of considerably the past couple of weeks. But he is also a viable pick as this will probably be Farriors' last season and we need his replacement. Fox and Foote are back-ups, not the future at the position.

ikestops85
04-07-2010, 11:20 AM
Who I want is CJ Spiller or Ryan Matthews because I think we have a potential train wreck at RB if Mendy gets hurt.

Ok then draft a back up RB in a back up Rb spot.....not at 18.


Graham is absolutely who we need for the reasons I identified. Do you think any OL or DB you draft in Round 1 won't take a year too? Have you ever seen a defensive player Lebeau drafted who doesn't take a year?

I disagree with you. I think a guy like Kyle Wilson can come in and start right away. I think Wilson is going to end up very close to what a Darrell Revis is or What Leon Hall is. And I also think Sean Weatherspoon would be a better fit at ILB than Graham is at OLB for the Steelers.

I agree Dee Dub ... I think the only positions on the entire team where a rookie can come in and start is at CB and RG. Other than that he will see some spot duty and learn behind a vet unless injuries strike.

The Steelers follow the BPA drafting strategy so I think the only time need enters into the decision is when they have players rated equal on their board. Then the tie-breaker is which position has a greater need. So, even though I would hate if they took a RB in the 1st, if they are on the clock and Spiller is the highest rated player on the board that is whom they will select. Graham would be the same. They will select him if he is the highest player on their board at selection time.

ANPSTEEL
04-07-2010, 11:47 AM
I think most people's "issue" with Weatherspoon- is why draft Timmons 2.0??

Disagree!! Weatherspoon is a completely different football player and in a 3-4 is ideally suited inside. He can cover and is a tremendous leader. He can run a defense....I dont think that is something Timmons can do.

I certainly agree that he is much more demonstrative- and likely a much better leader- but as far as actual skill sets go-

his scouting reports read almost the same as Timmons'.

Clearly, I am basing my opinion on information I have read- and some of the youtube stuff that is out there- but I'll say it again...

Irrespective of how good he may be- why draft a guy for a position that is not a position of need- when you have at least three other positions of much higher priority??

(This is the same argument I have in respect to drafting Graham.)

Northern_Blitz
04-07-2010, 02:25 PM
[quote="Northern_Blitz":2hbkwwgj]

Personally, I think we already have a potential replacement on the roster (Timmons). If Harrison or Wood got hurt, I think we move LT to OLB, and Foote to ILB. I would not draft an OLB early this year (unless they were by far the BPA).

So you want to see Foote and Farrior as our two starting ILB's? Yeesh, not me. Timmons needs to stay inside, we need the depth at the OLB position. Whether or not we should pick Graham in the first is debatable, but it is a pick that will help them, probably in the short term as well as down the line.[/quote:2hbkwwgj]

If JH ends up declining or getting hurt, I think it would be good to move Timmons back to his real position. Next year we could certainly play with Foote and Farrior (add Fox in the rotation too). Foote was always solid (if not spectacular) and as TO suggests, I think that AS's injury made Farrior look worse. Then we could pick up one or more mid round ILB/OLB this year. They wouldn't start this season (no LB drafted this year in any round will start this year unless someone gets hurt), but could provide depth and possible start in a season or two.

NW Steeler
04-07-2010, 02:48 PM
Unless they draft a CB or G, I don't expect them to start. Even if it is one of those two, I would still doubt that they would start until part way into the season. And I disagree that AS's injury made Farrior look worse, he looked slow as hell last year. A Foote/Farrior combo at ILB would be disastrous, IMO. That would be one of the slowest tandems in the NFL. The only way Timmons moves to OLB on a permanent basis is if they draft an ILB to replace him. And if they draft an ILB in the first round this year, I would understand why they did it, and would have no issue with him playing nothing but ST in his first season.

SteelCzar76
04-07-2010, 03:41 PM
Dude,...the F/O should take a stud blue chip DB in the first round. (and stop playing with our early round picks)

We could still pick up a VERY GOOD player like a Koa Misi to play OLB and perform well early on ST's in the third. (or possibly in the late second via some trades of late round selections.)

And while they (FO) are at it,.....take a Guard and or Center if they want one in the middle rounds.

Again,...stop taking "flyers" on "depth" and or mere "career contributers" at the top of the Draft,...IT WILL catch up with us as an organization.

NW Steeler
04-07-2010, 04:29 PM
I'm with you Czar, if Wilson is truly a blue-chipper, then we SHOULD draft him at #18. I'd have no issue with a top rated G/C in the second round either.

Dee Dub
04-07-2010, 04:47 PM
Dude,...the F/O should take a stud blue chip DB in the first round. (and stop playing with our early round picks)

We could still pick up a VERY GOOD player like a Koa Misi to play OLB and perform well early on ST's in the third. (or possibly in the late second via some trades of late round selections.)

And while they (FO) are at it,.....take a Guard and or Center if they want one in the middle rounds.

Again,...stop taking "flyers" on "depth" and or mere "career contributers" at the top of the Draft,...IT WILL catch up with us as an organization.

I can agree with this to a degree. Like for example if Earl Thomas, Kyle Wilson, or Taylor Mays is the pick there is some justification for it. But let me get something straight here...are you on record as saying that if the Steelers drafted Sean Weatherspoon in the first round he would be nothing more than a mere career contributor?? You dont think he will be an above average football player at the next level??

SteelCzar76
04-07-2010, 04:48 PM
I'm with you Czar, if Wilson is truly a blue-chipper, then we SHOULD draft him at #18. I'd have no issue with a top rated G/C in the second round either.

And i truely believe Wilson is that quality of a defensive back NW. (He reminds me of Dunta Robinson when he first entered the league)

In fact i will say that there should be no excuse for us to take ANY other player in this year's 1st Round outside of Wilson, Haden, Berry (Trade up), Mays or even everyone's new "guy" Earl Thomas.

To me the logic is simple,..yes we can pretty much use "help" anywhere on the roster. (As i am a firm believer that there is always room to grow and improve)

But i just do not see how anyone could argue that the weakest link on this football team is the defensive backfield. Even in the past with a healthy Troy making drive killing and game ending big plays,...if our front seven fails to create almost superhuman levels of pressure on above average passing attacks,... they would always take advantage of our corners and attack Clark where he is weakest. (Deep coverage)

JUST-PLAIN-NASTY
04-07-2010, 04:50 PM
If it is Graham, that is OK by me. Graham will get on the field on 3rd downs as a rookie. He most likely would have his hand on the ground on the right side. They could run the 3 man front in nickel & dime with Hood on the nose and Woodley & Graham at rush DE. Farrior, Timmons, & Harrison could be the backers in nickel and in dime get Farrior off the field. They could get Smith & Keisel off the field with that kind of depth. Anyway to get all 3 starters off the field on 3rd downs will keep this team going strong down the stretch. Smith & Keisel are not spring chickens and they need to become 2 down players like Hampton.

SteelCzar76
04-07-2010, 04:55 PM
Dude,...the F/O should take a stud blue chip DB in the first round. (and stop playing with our early round picks)

We could still pick up a VERY GOOD player like a Koa Misi to play OLB and perform well early on ST's in the third. (or possibly in the late second via some trades of late round selections.)

And while they (FO) are at it,.....take a Guard and or Center if they want one in the middle rounds.

Again,...stop taking "flyers" on "depth" and or mere "career contributers" at the top of the Draft,...IT WILL catch up with us as an organization.

I can agree with this to a degree. Like for example if Earl Thomas, Kyle Wilson, or Taylor Mays is the pick there is some justification for it. But let me get something straight here...are you on record as saying that if the Steelers drafted Sean Weatherspoon in the first round he would be nothing more than a mere career contributor?? You dont think he will be an above average football player at the next level??

To me Spoon is likely to be the impact Tampa 2/Colts type Linebacker that Tomlin has always Dreamed Timmons would be or,.. then again he could be Timmons II.

Either way,.. he is NOT a 3-4 inside backer. And i do not believe that us Drafting an OLB should take precedence over our secondary. This includes even a future league level 3-4 stud like Graham,..when you consider the quality DB's that we have a shot at sitting at 18 or via trading up a bit.

Dee Dub
04-07-2010, 05:09 PM
Dude,...the F/O should take a stud blue chip DB in the first round. (and stop playing with our early round picks)

We could still pick up a VERY GOOD player like a Koa Misi to play OLB and perform well early on ST's in the third. (or possibly in the late second via some trades of late round selections.)

And while they (FO) are at it,.....take a Guard and or Center if they want one in the middle rounds.

Again,...stop taking "flyers" on "depth" and or mere "career contributers" at the top of the Draft,...IT WILL catch up with us as an organization.

I can agree with this to a degree. Like for example if Earl Thomas, Kyle Wilson, or Taylor Mays is the pick there is some justification for it. But let me get something straight here...are you on record as saying that if the Steelers drafted Sean Weatherspoon in the first round he would be nothing more than a mere career contributor?? You dont think he will be an above average football player at the next level??

To me Spoon is likely to be the impact Tampa 2/Colts type Linebacker that Tomlin has always Dreamed Timmons would be or,.. then again he could be Timmons II.

Either way,.. he is NOT a 3-4 inside backer. And i do not believe that us Drafting an OLB should take precedence over our secondary. This includes even a future league level 3-4 stud like Graham,..when you consider the quality DB's that we have a shot at sitting at 18 or via trading up a bit.

Interesting. Many scouts and so called experts we chirping away at both the Senior Bowl and Combine how they thought he could very well make the transition to 3-4 ILB. ........

Oh and Dick Butkus called him one of the better LB's he's seen in awhile after Mizzou whooped his Illini this past year.

papillon
04-07-2010, 05:53 PM
If it is Graham, that is OK by me. Graham will get on the field on 3rd downs as a rookie. He most likely would have his hand on the ground on the right side. They could run the 3 man front in nickel & dime with Hood on the nose and Woodley & Graham at rush DE. Farrior, Timmons, & Harrison could be the backers in nickel and in dime get Farrior off the field. They could get Smith & Keisel off the field with that kind of depth. Anyway to get all 3 starters off the field on 3rd downs will keep this team going strong down the stretch. Smith & Keisel are not spring chickens and they need to become 2 down players like Hampton.

I don't know if I'm ready to relegate Smith to the bench on 3rd down. He gets a good push on the pass rush and is too much of a leader on the field to put him on the sideline on 3rd down. Kiesel and Hampton, no problem with them seeing the sideline on third down, if Ziggy improves the way they hope he does, Kiesel may become the backup before this year is over.

Pappy

SteelCzar76
04-07-2010, 09:04 PM
[quote=SteelCzar76]Dude,...the F/O should take a stud blue chip DB in the first round. (and stop playing with our early round picks)

We could still pick up a VERY GOOD player like a Koa Misi to play OLB and perform well early on ST's in the third. (or possibly in the late second via some trades of late round selections.)

And while they (FO) are at it,.....take a Guard and or Center if they want one in the middle rounds.

Again,...stop taking "flyers" on "depth" and or mere "career contributers" at the top of the Draft,...IT WILL catch up with us as an organization.

I can agree with this to a degree. Like for example if Earl Thomas, Kyle Wilson, or Taylor Mays is the pick there is some justification for it. But let me get something straight here...are you on record as saying that if the Steelers drafted Sean Weatherspoon in the first round he would be nothing more than a mere career contributor?? You dont think he will be an above average football player at the next level??

To me Spoon is likely to be the impact Tampa 2/Colts type Linebacker that Tomlin has always Dreamed Timmons would be or,.. then again he could be Timmons II.

Either way,.. he is NOT a 3-4 inside backer. And i do not believe that us Drafting an OLB should take precedence over our secondary. This includes even a future league level 3-4 stud like Graham,..when you consider the quality DB's that we have a shot at sitting at 18 or via trading up a bit.

Interesting. Many scouts and so called experts we chirping away at both the Senior Bowl and Combine how they thought he could very well make the transition to 3-4 ILB. ........

Oh and bad word Butkus called him one of the better LB's he's seen in awhile after Mizzou whooped his Illini this past year.[/quote:3gbh6u2b]

Not all,...or the majority of scouts,... believe as much to be true D. But in truth that's not so much my point as,...if so inclined,..."fault and or strength" can be found in anything. (And i dig that as perspective is a Mutha# if you will.)

What i am saying is that based upon my opinion,....Spoon will not fail at the next level or merely become "just a guy" because of his will, drive heart and intellect.

But,..he will not (again IMO) be any more the second coming of Greg Llloyd or Derick Brooks on the field than Timmons is, and therefore due to the gravity of our other "needs",...should not be our 1st round selection.

Nor do i feel as though he is the 18th best collegiate football player in our entire Nation.

SteelCzar76
04-07-2010, 09:24 PM
If it is Graham, that is OK by me. Graham will get on the field on 3rd downs as a rookie. He most likely would have his hand on the ground on the right side. They could run the 3 man front in nickel & dime with Hood on the nose and Woodley & Graham at rush DE. Farrior, Timmons, & Harrison could be the backers in nickel and in dime get Farrior off the field. They could get Smith & Keisel off the field with that kind of depth. Anyway to get all 3 starters off the field on 3rd downs will keep this team going strong down the stretch. Smith & Keisel are not spring chickens and they need to become 2 down players like Hampton.

I don't know if I'm ready to relegate Smith to the bench on 3rd down. He gets a good push on the pass rush and is too much of a leader on the field to put him on the sideline on 3rd down. Kiesel and Hampton, no problem with them seeing the sideline on third down, if Ziggy improves the way they hope he does, Kiesel may become the backup before this year is over.

Pappy

:Agree Aaron is a prototype 3-4 DE. Much the same way Hamp is to the NT position in this system.

He's (Smith) had to deal with injuries within the last several years,...but can anyone here name an entire game where he did not show up and do his job well if he was able to set foot on the field ?

Time catches up with us all,..and we must at some point bring in an individual whom is on his level. (I understand this)

But,....neither Hood, Harris, or Graham is "that guy" at the said position.

Graham because he is a League level OLB or Tampa 2 End,...and Hood and Harris because their skill sets, mental makeup and ability dictate that they will most likely only ever be average 4-3 tackles. (Not dissing them,..just being truthful)

Now Hood and Harris could indeed defy these odds,...but based upon their complete "resumes" prior to becoming professionals,....who's willing to bet the success of the Franchise on it ?

papillon
04-07-2010, 09:39 PM
If it is Graham, that is OK by me. Graham will get on the field on 3rd downs as a rookie. He most likely would have his hand on the ground on the right side. They could run the 3 man front in nickel & dime with Hood on the nose and Woodley & Graham at rush DE. Farrior, Timmons, & Harrison could be the backers in nickel and in dime get Farrior off the field. They could get Smith & Keisel off the field with that kind of depth. Anyway to get all 3 starters off the field on 3rd downs will keep this team going strong down the stretch. Smith & Keisel are not spring chickens and they need to become 2 down players like Hampton.

I don't know if I'm ready to relegate Smith to the bench on 3rd down. He gets a good push on the pass rush and is too much of a leader on the field to put him on the sideline on 3rd down. Kiesel and Hampton, no problem with them seeing the sideline on third down, if Ziggy improves the way they hope he does, Kiesel may become the backup before this year is over.

Pappy

:Agree Aaron is a prototype 3-4 DE. Much the same way Hamp is to the NT position in this system.

He's (Smith) had to deal with injuries within the last several years,...but can anyone here name an entire game where he did not show up and do his job well if he was able to set foot on the field ?

Time catches up with us all,..and at we must at some point bring in an individual whom is on his level. (I understand this)

But,....neither Hood, Harris, or Graham is "that guy".

Graham because he is a League level OLB or Tampa 2 End,...and Hood and Harris because their skill sets, mental makeup and ability dictate that they will most likely only ever be average 4-3 tackles. (Not dissing them,..just being truthful)

Now Hood and Harris could indeed defy these odds,...but based upon their complete "resumes" prior to becoming professionals,....who's willing to bet the success of the Franchise on it ?

Hood isn't going to be playing in then 4-3 with the Steelers except for that hybrid specialty defense they run every now and then. He's going to be a 3-4 DE and from everything I've heard his mental attitude, motor and heart are all elite level. He simply needs the reps in my opinion before he becomes the next Smitty, unheralded, unknown and dominant.

Pappy

SteelCzar76
04-07-2010, 10:23 PM
Hood isn't going to be playing in then 4-3 with the Steelers except for that hybrid specialty defense they run every now and then. He's going to be a 3-4 DE and from everything I've heard his mental attitude, motor and heart are all elite level. He simply needs the reps in my opinion before he becomes the next Smitty, unheralded, unknown and dominant.

Pappy


If this is so and in turn serves the best of the whole Pap,...i will gladly face the Crows.

papillon
04-07-2010, 11:17 PM
Hood isn't going to be playing in then 4-3 with the Steelers except for that hybrid specialty defense they run every now and then. He's going to be a 3-4 DE and from everything I've heard his mental attitude, motor and heart are all elite level. He simply needs the reps in my opinion before he becomes the next Smitty, unheralded, unknown and dominant.

Pappy


If this is so and in turn serves the best of the whole Pap,...i will gladly face the Crows.

No need to eat crow, you're entitled to your opinion. I have no problem with you believing that Hood is an average football player. We'll begin to find out this year who's right this year.

Pappy

JUST-PLAIN-NASTY
04-08-2010, 09:29 AM
If it is Graham, that is OK by me. Graham will get on the field on 3rd downs as a rookie. He most likely would have his hand on the ground on the right side. They could run the 3 man front in nickel & dime with Hood on the nose and Woodley & Graham at rush DE. Farrior, Timmons, & Harrison could be the backers in nickel and in dime get Farrior off the field. They could get Smith & Keisel off the field with that kind of depth. Anyway to get all 3 starters off the field on 3rd downs will keep this team going strong down the stretch. Smith & Keisel are not spring chickens and they need to become 2 down players like Hampton.

I don't know if I'm ready to relegate Smith to the bench on 3rd down. He gets a good push on the pass rush and is too much of a leader on the field to put him on the sideline on 3rd down. Kiesel and Hampton, no problem with them seeing the sideline on third down, if Ziggy improves the way they hope he does, Kiesel may become the backup before this year is over.

Pappy
Smith is a force Pap, don't get me wrong. The push is still there. But believe me, at his age, size, and tenure...As soon as the Steelers are comfortable with another DL that could take his place on nickel & dime....I think they will do it. Pash rush winds the front 3...I would rather play a whole game in run defense than play one quarter rushing the QB. Smith's money is made on run downs. That includes playaction or a designed pass out of base offense because of the "push" you mentioned. The system design for the DL in a 3-4 runs them down later in the game and season. If there is someone who could take that rotation spot on passing downs for Smith...Smith will be Smith for 60 minutes and all the way to the SB. A good coach knows this is how you keep a seasoned vet's tank full. Right now, we will probably see Smith & Hood as the 2 down lineman in nickel & dime. If they get another Woodley clone in a guy who played with his hand in the dirt...That might change. Having a guy with that experience lining up across from an OT gives you the confidence he could engage an OL at the point of attack and collapse inside to defend the run if there is a draw. That's the fear of pulling DL in passing downs and replacing them with LBs who are used to standing up.

In my opinion, leadership shouldn't be a factor in that situation. Hampton's a leader and he comes off the field. The one good thing about this team is there is leadership front to back.

I agree about Keisel. Once the resposibilities become natural to Hood I think he takes his place. That is his transition of being a one gap penetrating DT in college to a two gap player in a 3-4. You can see when he plays he is thinking on the run. He is making sure he takes care of his gap responsibilities and protecting his LBs. Hopefully this year he makes the complete transition. The difference right now is a guy like Smith is just naturally firing out of his stands & engaging...reading his gap...flowing to the play while maintaining his gap responsibilty and remaining engaged...And coming off at the last second to help make a play on the RB. Protecting his LBs all the way down the line as he flows to the play. What makes him special is the abilty to do this and help on the play when the RB tries to break the LOS. It is "poetry" when you watch it if you done it yourself. Right now, Hood is doing this but it isn't natural yet. You could see him taking care of his assignment but not letting the football instinct of making the play to finish. It will come...There is a transition period.

papillon
04-08-2010, 09:40 AM
[quote="JUST-PLAIN-NASTY":1osp9kup]If it is Graham, that is OK by me. Graham will get on the field on 3rd downs as a rookie. He most likely would have his hand on the ground on the right side. They could run the 3 man front in nickel & dime with Hood on the nose and Woodley & Graham at rush DE. Farrior, Timmons, & Harrison could be the backers in nickel and in dime get Farrior off the field. They could get Smith & Keisel off the field with that kind of depth. Anyway to get all 3 starters off the field on 3rd downs will keep this team going strong down the stretch. Smith & Keisel are not spring chickens and they need to become 2 down players like Hampton.

I don't know if I'm ready to relegate Smith to the bench on 3rd down. He gets a good push on the pass rush and is too much of a leader on the field to put him on the sideline on 3rd down. Kiesel and Hampton, no problem with them seeing the sideline on third down, if Ziggy improves the way they hope he does, Kiesel may become the backup before this year is over.

Pappy
Smith is a force Pap, don't get me wrong. The push is still there. But believe me, at his age, size, and tenure...As soon as the Steelers are comfortable with another DL that could take his place on nickel & dime....I think they will do it. Pash rush winds the front 3...I would rather play a whole game in run defense than play one quarter rushing the QB. Smith's money is made on run downs. That includes playaction or a designed pass out of base offense because of the "push" you mentioned. The system design for the DL in a 3-4 runs them down later in the game and season. If there is someone who could take that rotation spot on passing downs for Smith...Smith will be Smith for 60 minutes and all the way to the SB. A good coach knows this is how you keep a seasoned vet's tank full. Right now, we will probably see Smith & Hood as the 2 down lineman in nickel & dime. If they get another Woodley clone in a guy who played with his hand in the dirt...That might change. Having a guy with that experience lining up across from an OT gives you the confidence he could engage an OL at the point of attack and collapse inside to defend the run if there is a draw. That's the fear of pulling DL in passing downs and replacing them with LBs who are used to standing up.

In my opinion, leadership shouldn't be a factor in that situation. Hampton's a leader and he comes off the field. The one good thing about this team is there is leadership front to back.

I agree about Keisel. Once the resposibilities become natural to Hood I think he takes his place. That is his transition of being a one gap penetrating DT in college to a two gap player in a 3-4. You can see when he plays he is thinking on the run. He is making sure he takes care of his gap responsibilities and protecting his LBs. Hopefully this year he makes the complete transition. The difference right now is a guy like Smith is just naturally firing out of his stands & engaging...reading his gap...flowing to the play while maintaining his gap responsibilty and remaining engaged...And coming off at the last second to help make a play on the RB. Protecting his LBs all the way down the line as he flows to the play. What makes him special is the abilty to do this and help on the play when the RB tries to break the LOS. It is "poetry" when you watch it if you done it yourself. Right now, Hood is doing this but it isn't natural yet. You could see him taking care of his assignment but not letting the football instinct of making the play to finish. It will come...There is a transition period.[/quote:1osp9kup]

How do you handle 3rd and 1, 2, 3, or 4? Leave Smith on the field? It could be a run or pass. Maybe take him out on 3rd and long, but I just don't like taking the best DL we have out of the game unless it's absolutely necessary or the down and distance allows for it.

I don't understand all the responsibilities of the DE and I certainly couldn't tell if Hood was thinking or reacting last season. I do know that what I saw from Hood looked good and we also missed Smitty in a big way and mostly in passing situations it seemed. While DEs in the 3-4 don't get many sacks, Smith definitely pushed the pocket back towards the quarterback when he was in the game.

Just my observations based on my rudimentary knowledge of what I';m watching.

Pappy

RuthlessBurgher
04-08-2010, 10:10 AM
My nickel defense would have a 4 man front (Woodley at LDE, Aaron at LDT, Hood at RDT, and Keisel at RDE. I would have Timmons and Harrison as the two LB's behind them.

Oviedo
04-08-2010, 11:09 AM
My nickel defense would have a 4 man front (Woodley at LDE, Aaron at LDT, Hood at RDT, and Keisel at RDE. I would have Timmons and Harrison as the two LB's behind them.

Yep!!!! That is how I would go too.

JUST-PLAIN-NASTY
04-08-2010, 12:46 PM
If it is Graham, that is OK by me. Graham will get on the field on 3rd downs as a rookie. He most likely would have his hand on the ground on the right side. They could run the 3 man front in nickel & dime with Hood on the nose and Woodley & Graham at rush DE. Farrior, Timmons, & Harrison could be the backers in nickel and in dime get Farrior off the field. They could get Smith & Keisel off the field with that kind of depth. Anyway to get all 3 starters off the field on 3rd downs will keep this team going strong down the stretch. Smith & Keisel are not spring chickens and they need to become 2 down players like Hampton.

I don't know if I'm ready to relegate Smith to the bench on 3rd down. He gets a good push on the pass rush and is too much of a leader on the field to put him on the sideline on 3rd down. Kiesel and Hampton, no problem with them seeing the sideline on third down, if Ziggy improves the way they hope he does, Kiesel may become the backup before this year is over.

Pappy

:Agree Aaron is a prototype 3-4 DE. Much the same way Hamp is to the NT position in this system.

He's (Smith) had to deal with injuries within the last several years,...but can anyone here name an entire game where he did not show up and do his job well if he was able to set foot on the field ?

Time catches up with us all,..and we must at some point bring in an individual whom is on his level. (I understand this)

But,....neither Hood, Harris, or Graham is "that guy" at the said position.

Graham because he is a League level OLB or Tampa 2 End,...and Hood and Harris because their skill sets, mental makeup and ability dictate that they will most likely only ever be average 4-3 tackles. (Not dissing them,..just being truthful)

Now Hood and Harris could indeed defy these odds,...but based upon their complete "resumes" prior to becoming professionals,....who's willing to bet the success of the Franchise on it ?
But we are not in a 4-3 system. Hood & Harris are 3-4 ends and never will be DT in a base 3-4. Nickel & Dime alignments are not based off of 3-4 / 4-3. Lining up Smith, Hood, or Harris as inside down lineman in nickel & dime doesn't mean they are DT. The outside guys with their hand on the ground in nickel & dime could best be compared to a 4-3 DE. Having guys like Woodley & Graham who played there in college is a big plus to defend the run out of those packages. It then allows you to also get a 3rd rush LB on the field.

JUST-PLAIN-NASTY
04-08-2010, 01:24 PM
How do you handle 3rd and 1, 2, 3, or 4? Leave Smith on the field? It could be a run or pass. Maybe take him out on 3rd and long, but I just don't like taking the best DL we have out of the game unless it's absolutely necessary or the down and distance allows for it.

I don't understand all the responsibilities of the DE and I certainly couldn't tell if Hood was thinking or reacting last season. I do know that what I saw from Hood looked good and we also missed Smitty in a big way and mostly in passing situations it seemed. While DEs in the 3-4 don't get many sacks, Smith definitely pushed the pocket back towards the quarterback when he was in the game.

Just my observations based on my rudimentary knowledge of what I';m watching.

Pappy
That is basicly what I said. Obviously it is all dictated by personnel on offense and who you are playing. 3rd & 1-4 could still be a base 3-4. If they have 3 WR on the field than they would adjust to nickel. Smith would still be on the field against most teams. You have 3rd & medium against a team like the Colts...I'm bringing Smith off the field if I have a guy like Graham sitting on the sideline. You have to get to the QB in this pass friendly league and get your best pass rushers on the field.

SMith was clearly missed in the run game. When the Steelers needed to force a 3 & out to get the ball back aginst medicore running teams...They couldn't do it. Having SMith in the lineup would have some impact on the passing defense but his impact was felt in the running game defense week in and week out. Glad he is back!!!

JUST-PLAIN-NASTY
04-08-2010, 01:44 PM
My nickel defense would have a 4 man front (Woodley at LDE, Aaron at LDT, Hood at RDT, and Keisel at RDE. I would have Timmons and Harrison as the two LB's behind them.

Looks good. Against a team like the Colts I would take Keisel out and walk up Harrison to the LOS. Farrior would remain on the field with Timmons.

Now...Draft a guy like Graham. My nickel front is Woodley, Smith, Hood, & Graham with Timmons & Harrison as the LB. My dime front becomes Woodley, Hood, & Graham with Timmons & Harrison as the LB. Might not happen this year, but say they draft a DE like Neal. Hood & Neal would be my inside guys in the nickel when Neal was ready and Smith would come off the field on 3rd down.

NJ-STEELER
04-08-2010, 05:00 PM
i'm with ya D.

dont get this talk of using a #1 at a position were probably close to the stronest on the team.

wouldn't mind a later pick to develop, as has been the tradition.


also, i dont get this talk that we draft BPA every year. the only 1st rd picks i can think of that weren't needs were mendenhall and hood...and that can be debated.

timmons, BB, troy, Holmes,heath, hampton, simmons were players taken with need in mind