Rush to judgment on Big Ben wrong

[cruzer8]

http://community.post-gazette.com/blogs ... wrong.aspx (http://community.post-gazette.com/blogs/bobsmizik/archive/2010/03/07/rush-to-judgment-on-roethlisberger-wrong.aspx)


Rush to judgment on Big Ben wrong
By Bob Smizik | Sunday 10:20 a.m.

I frequent a restaurant/bar in my community that also has been known to be visited by young women.

Both restrooms in the bar area are completely at the back of this establishment and before reaching them customers, men and women, disappear behind a wall.

Am I guilty of poor judgment in frequenting this bar?

I think most of you would say no.

Suppose further, though, that at this same bar I was charged with sexual assault based on something that happened behind that wall. Because I am a public figure the story makes the newspapers, television and Internet.

What would you say then?

I imagine there would be some who’d say what’s that old fool putting himself in such a position.

And this is why I am not ready to pronounce judgment on Ben Roethlisberger.

I know I’m supposed to have opinion on subjects in the news, but I prefer to base those opinions on facts I know. I don’t know enough facts about Roethlisberger to condemn him.

I will not condemn him for hanging out in a ``college bar.’’

I’m not quite sure what a college bar is and I’m not sure that Roethlisberger was in such a place, even if it has often been described as that.

Nor will I condemn him for hanging out with a women who was eight years his junior. People exchange lots of information in the bar scene, some of it is true. I don’t know, though, if men check the age of women and vice-versa.

And even if he knew she were 20, so what?

I can scarcely believe the opinions put forth on this site and the amount of amateur psychoanalyzing that has taken place. That’s a right the Internet has given us, I suppose, but it doesn’t mean it should be used so willy-nilly and with such mean-spiritedness.

The facts are these: Roethlisberger was accused of sexual assault. My understanding of that is it's a wide-based term for inappropriate action of a sexual nature.

He was accused. He has not been charged and there is a wide difference between the two.

That does not mean what happen isn’t news. It’s big news when the star of the No. 1 team in town is charged with anything, let alone sexual abuse. And that’s doubly so because Roethlisberger has a history in this area.

A lot of people immediately condemned the young woman in this instance. That’s too bad and speaks to problems they have. But let’s for a minute say that she was strictly looking to make headlines, cause trouble or began a law suit. If that is the case, tell me, what did Roethlisberger do wrong?

I say nothing.

I say men and women, regardless of their star power, have a right to go out in public and enjoy themselves. if that’s what they want. As far as I know, that’s all Roethlisberger did.

If Roethlisberger is guilty in this case, then the full force of public opinion, the law and NFL justice should come down on him.

Until such time, I reserve judgment.



A voice of reason.

[eniparadoxgma]

Echoes my sentiments pretty well.

Dude needs an editor though.


That does not mean what happen isn’t news.

[hawaiiansteel]

I'm reserving judgment on what may or may not have happened.

But I still think Ben is using poor judgment by putting himself into these types of situations. You and I might be able to get away with this kind of behavior because we're not rich and famous and thus not targets of women who want to take advantage of us.

Ben is.

[BURGH86STEEL]

I'm reserving judgment on what may or may not have happened.

But I still think Ben is using poor judgment by putting himself into these types of situations. You and I might be able to get away with this kind of behavior because we're not rich and famous and thus not targets of women who want to take advantage of us.

Ben is.

I agree, Ben needs to reevaluate the way he does things and the company he keeps.

[JAR]

Thank you Smizik and you're a crusty old prude.

[hawaiiansteel]

Thank you Smizik and you're a crusty old prude.


yeah, crusty old prudes like Smizik don't have to worry about women trying to take advantage of them.

women most likely stay far away on the other side of the bar when he is there.

[cruzer8]

Going out to a bar with bodyguards and friends isn't poor judgment.

[hawaiiansteel]

Going out to a bar with bodyguards and friends isn't poor judgment.



riding a motorcycle without a helmet on is.

[cruzer8]

Going out to a bar with bodyguards and friends isn't poor judgment.



riding a motorcycle without a helmet on is.

Have you ever lived in a city with an NFL team? I've lived in a few of them. In the states that have helmet laws the players wear them. In the states where there are no helmet laws they usually don't.

[Chadman]

Going out to a bar with bodyguards and friends isn't poor judgment.



riding a motorcycle without a helmet on is.

Are we really going to continue getting stuck on that one?

Is he the only guy to have come off his bike without a helmet?

So, let's for a second agree that Ben sometimes doesn't thunk things through completely (really, who here can say that they analyze every outcome of their actions before doing something?), how is that such a terrible thing that we, as people with no association with Ben outside of supporting the team he happens to play for, can feel justified in questioning him as a person?

[hawaiiansteel]

Going out to a bar with bodyguards and friends isn't poor judgment.



riding a motorcycle without a helmet on is.

Have you ever lived in a city with an NFL team? I've lived in a few of them. In the states that have helmet laws the players wear them. In the states where there are no helmet laws they usually don't.


if one is reckless and uses poor judgment by not wearing a condom with a partner they don't know that well, then that individual has a higher probability of getting a sexual disease than the person who uses good judgment and wears a condom.

a person not wearing a helmet while operating a vehicle at high speeds that offers no protection (like a motorcycle) is using poor judgment, law or no law.

[eniparadoxgma]

if one is reckless and uses poor judgment by not wearing a condom with a partner they don't know that well, then that individual has a higher probability of getting a sexual disease than the person who uses good judgment and wears a condom.

a person not wearing a helmet while operating a vehicle at high speeds that offers no protection (like a motorcycle) is using poor judgment, law or no law.

That example is misleading. In the first example (the condom) causing harm to someone else is involved. In the second, I don't believe it is.

Much like mandatory seat belt law, helmet laws are a bunch of bull****. If the only person you can harm is yourself than it should be your decision whether or not to wear one, period. I'm not getting into how insurance companies might play a part in this crap either.

Point being, you might think it's poor judgment to ride a motorcycle without a helmet. That's your right, so when you ride a motorcycle wear a helmet. Other people don't have to acquiesce to your opinion of what they should do for their own safety.

[hawaiiansteel]

if one is reckless and uses poor judgment by not wearing a condom with a partner they don't know that well, then that individual has a higher probability of getting a sexual disease than the person who uses good judgment and wears a condom.

a person not wearing a helmet while operating a vehicle at high speeds that offers no protection (like a motorcycle) is using poor judgment, law or no law.

That example is misleading. In the first example (the condom) causing harm to someone else is involved. In the second, I don't believe it is.

Much like mandatory seat belt law, helmet laws are a bunch of bad word. If the only person you can harm is yourself than it should be your decision whether or not to wear one, period. I'm not getting into how insurance companies might play a part in this crap either.

Point being, you might think it's poor judgment to ride a motorcycle without a helmet. That's your right, so when you ride a motorcycle wear a helmet. Other people don't have to acquiesce to your opinion of what they should do for their own safety.


if Ben were to get seriously injured while riding a motorcycle without a helmet on he would not only be hurting himself, he would also be hurting his teammates who depend on him and the entire Steelers organization.

[eniparadoxgma]

if Ben were to get seriously injured while riding a motorcycle without a helmet on he would not only be hurting himself, he would also be hurting his teammates who depend on him and the entire Steelers organization.

I thought this one had already been beat to death ad nauseum.

I'm not in the camp that believes that a sports player is taking unnecessary risks that could harm other people by their own personal choice to wear a seat belt/helmet/etc.

If it's not required by law it's his choice to wear one or not. It's his life and his body that are at stake. It doesn't have anything to do with anyone else.

[feltdizz]

if Ben were to get seriously injured while riding a motorcycle without a helmet on he would not only be hurting himself, he would also be hurting his teammates who depend on him and the entire Steelers organization.

I thought this one had already been beat to death ad nauseum.

I'm not in the camp that believes that a sports player is taking unnecessary risks that could harm other people by their own personal choice to wear a seat belt/helmet/etc.

If it's not required by law it's his choice to wear one or not. It's his life and his body that are at stake. It doesn't have anything to do with anyone else.
He hasn't been on a motorcycle without a helmet since the accident though has he? Not sure if they changed the laws or not. Ben can do anything legal no matter how dangerous it is. It's his life, like Drago said in Rocky 4.. or 5. "If he dies, he dies"

The Rooneys would get over it... I know we all would. (sarcasm)

[steelernation77]

I'm 21, and I don't mean to offend you guys, but when we see guys 27+ in a college bar hitting on 19 and 20 year old girls we think they're creeps. Ben should grow up. Even if it was consensual, he shouldn't be banging 20 year olds in bar bathrooms.

[hawaiiansteel]

if Ben were to get seriously injured while riding a motorcycle without a helmet on he would not only be hurting himself, he would also be hurting his teammates who depend on him and the entire Steelers organization.

I thought this one had already been beat to death ad nauseum.

I'm not in the camp that believes that a sports player is taking unnecessary risks that could harm other people by their own personal choice to wear a seat belt/helmet/etc.

If it's not required by law it's his choice to wear one or not. It's his life and his body that are at stake. It doesn't have anything to do with anyone else.




i believe Ben is making choices that give him a higher probability of bad things happening to him than if he instead chose to not ride a motorcycle (especially without a helmet on) and decided not to be out at bars at 2am.

does he have a right to? of course he does, i just think he should use a little more common sense.

[feltdizz]

Does this whole "Ben can do whatever he wants as long as it's legal" apply to free speech too? Ben could go on a hate filled rant about yinzers, say a bunch of Pollish jokes and trash Pittsburgh stereotypes...

It's not illegal..... but it's not in his best interest either.

[stlrz d]

if one is reckless and uses poor judgment by not wearing a condom with a partner they don't know that well, then that individual has a higher probability of getting a sexual disease than the person who uses good judgment and wears a condom.

a person not wearing a helmet while operating a vehicle at high speeds that offers no protection (like a motorcycle) is using poor judgment, law or no law.

That example is misleading. In the first example (the condom) causing harm to someone else is involved. In the second, I don't believe it is.

Much like mandatory seat belt law, helmet laws are a bunch of bad word. If the only person you can harm is yourself than it should be your decision whether or not to wear one, period. I'm not getting into how insurance companies might play a part in this crap either.

Point being, you might think it's poor judgment to ride a motorcycle without a helmet. That's your right, so when you ride a motorcycle wear a helmet. Other people don't have to acquiesce to your opinion of what they should do for their own safety.


if Ben were to get seriously injured while riding a motorcycle without a helmet on he would not only be hurting himself, he would also be hurting his teammates who depend on him and the entire Steelers organization.

So basically every person out there riding without a helmet should refrain from doing so because their employer and coworkers are depending on them?

[feltdizz]

I'm sure there are some industries that do not want their employees riding without a helmet. Some companies give bonuses to employees who don't smoke or have great excellent health reports.

The NBA, I believe, has enforced a no motorcycle rule because of the guaranteed contract and lost investment.

I think the obvious point though is the common man and Ben are 2 different things. People keep saying things that suggest a 100 million dollar man is the norm.

[eniparadoxgma]

He hasn't been on a motorcycle without a helmet since the accident though has he? Not sure if they changed the laws or not. Ben can do anything legal no matter how dangerous it is. It's his life, like Drago said in Rocky 4.. or 5. "If he dies, he dies"

The Rooneys would get over it... I know we all would. (sarcasm)

What's your point? Seriously?

I have no idea if he's been on a motorcycle without a helmet since. I also have no idea if he would be basing his decision to wear one off of concern for his own safety or another reason.

It seems your point is that since "we fans" and "the Steelers organization" would be affected in a negative way then Ben should make his decisions based on that...

I don't agree. He's a person. He has free will. If it's not against the law and it's not in his contract not to do then he can do whatever the **** he wants. You can sit around and say it was a dumb decision all you want. It's what the armchair quarterbacks do best.

However, when it's all done and said, crap happens to people regardless of their actual intentions and sometimes regardless of what safety precautions they take. If he was wearing a helmet would you be talking about how bad a decision it is for a 100 million dollar man to be riding a motorcycle at all? I bet you would.

If this latest thing happened in the confines of his own home with a girl that was supposed to be hush-hush and everything cool...but then went against her word and tried to get some money out of him anyway...(for the record I'm not saying anything about his guilt or innocence in the ongoing investigations...because I. Wasn't. There.)...then would you be talking about how he needs to just get married and quit banging all types of girls? I bet you would.

My point is that you can never be 100 percent safe about anything for one. Another point is that we, as fans, don't own Ben Roethlisberger. He's a man. He might be "different" than the average joe for some reasons, but in the end last I checked he can do whatever the hell he wants. I think the fans that are talking about how stupid he is for going out to a club nearby one of his homes for his birthday with at least one friend and a bunch of bodyguards should seriously just shut the hell up and worry about their own lives. Judge not, lest ye be judged and all that. Glass houses, etc etc.

I'll be getting a new bicycle soon, and when I do...guess what? I won't be wearing a helmet when I ride it. I could easily fall off of it and break my jaw? How do I know? Because I broke my jaw while riding a bicycle before. Would wearing a helmet have helped? Maybe. However, it's my damn decision to make. If you want to sit around and talk about how stupid I am for not wearing a helmet go for it. In the end, it will you sitting around making judgments on other people's decisions instead of tending your own house.

[eniparadoxgma]

I'm 21, and I don't mean to offend you guys, but when we see guys 27+ in a college bar hitting on 19 and 20 year old girls we think they're creeps. Ben should grow up. Even if it was consensual, he shouldn't be banging 20 year olds in bar bathrooms.

That's your right. However, if two people of the legal age or over decide they want to go bang each other I don't see why the hell you care. It also sounds like you really give too much of a crap about things that don't concern you.

[eniparadoxgma]

i believe Ben is making choices that give him a higher probability of bad things happening to him than if he instead chose to not ride a motorcycle (especially without a helmet on) and decided not to be out at bars at 2am.

does he have a right to? of course he does, i just think he should use a little more common sense.

As has been mentioned elsewhere, he would have a lot lower probability of bad things happening to him if he sat in his own compound and never left it...ever. Where exactly are you drawing the line and how will we decide where the line is drawn? Obviously if he decides to take up jumping out of airplanes without a chute, I might think him retarded.

But riding a motorcycle and choosing to wear a helmet? Going out to a club with a bunch of bodyguards to celebrate your birthday in a town near where you live?

Apparently you draw that line in a spot pretty far from where I do, and that's your right. However, one of us is proclaiming that someone is doing something he shouldn't while one of us isn't. I prefer to err on the side of "minding my own business and worrying about my own choices".

[hawaiiansteel]

if one is reckless and uses poor judgment by not wearing a condom with a partner they don't know that well, then that individual has a higher probability of getting a sexual disease than the person who uses good judgment and wears a condom.

a person not wearing a helmet while operating a vehicle at high speeds that offers no protection (like a motorcycle) is using poor judgment, law or no law.

That example is misleading. In the first example (the condom) causing harm to someone else is involved. In the second, I don't believe it is.

Much like mandatory seat belt law, helmet laws are a bunch of bad word. If the only person you can harm is yourself than it should be your decision whether or not to wear one, period. I'm not getting into how insurance companies might play a part in this crap either.

Point being, you might think it's poor judgment to ride a motorcycle without a helmet. That's your right, so when you ride a motorcycle wear a helmet. Other people don't have to acquiesce to your opinion of what they should do for their own safety.


if Ben were to get seriously injured while riding a motorcycle without a helmet on he would not only be hurting himself, he would also be hurting his teammates who depend on him and the entire Steelers organization.

So basically every person out there riding without a helmet should refrain from doing so because their employer and coworkers are depending on them?



no, every person out there riding without a helmet should refrain from doing so because it is much safer to wear a helmet and could possibly save their life or prevent them from serious injury in the event of an accident.

[Shawn]

I'm 21, and I don't mean to offend you guys, but when we see guys 27+ in a college bar hitting on 19 and 20 year old girls we think they're creeps. Ben should grow up. Even if it was consensual, he shouldn't be banging 20 year olds in bar bathrooms.

That's your right. However, if two people of the legal age or over decide they want to go bang each other I don't see why the hell you care. It also sounds like you really give too much of a crap about things that don't concern you.

If people spent half the time they dedicate to observing and judging others...to self improvement...this world would be a better place. If he is 50 and wants to hang with college chicks...what's the problem? I don't get why people care.

[eniparadoxgma]

I'm sure there are some industries that do not want their employees riding without a helmet. Some companies give bonuses to employees who don't smoke or have great excellent health reports.

The NBA, I believe, has enforced a no motorcycle rule because of the guaranteed contract and lost investment.

I think the obvious point though is the common man and Ben are 2 different things. People keep saying things that suggest a 100 million dollar man is the norm.

If it's in his contract to not do certain things then he probably shouldn't do them.

If it's not, then let him do whatever the hell he wants. I'm not his keeper and neither are you.

[SteelAbility]

if one is reckless and uses poor judgment by not wearing a condom with a partner they don't know that well, then that individual has a higher probability of getting a sexual disease than the person who uses good judgment and wears a condom.

a person not wearing a helmet while operating a vehicle at high speeds that offers no protection (like a motorcycle) is using poor judgment, law or no law.

That example is misleading. In the first example (the condom) causing harm to someone else is involved. In the second, I don't believe it is.

Much like mandatory seat belt law, helmet laws are a bunch of bad word. If the only person you can harm is yourself than it should be your decision whether or not to wear one, period. I'm not getting into how insurance companies might play a part in this crap either.

Point being, you might think it's poor judgment to ride a motorcycle without a helmet. That's your right, so when you ride a motorcycle wear a helmet. Other people don't have to acquiesce to your opinion of what they should do for their own safety.

I would disagree. If you don't have a helmet, then that can change the way you drive when you see danger coming and that can lead to harming someone who otherwise wouldn't have been harmed. It's the Heisenberg principle. The moment you change one factor in any experiment, the entire experiment is affected.

Furthermore, the argument implies that the condom-wearer is known to be clean. It's talking about the risk of incurring injury to oneself.

[SteelAbility]

Going out to a bar with bodyguards and friends isn't poor judgment.



riding a motorcycle without a helmet on is.

Have you ever lived in a city with an NFL team? I've lived in a few of them. In the states that have helmet laws the players wear them. In the states where there are no helmet laws they usually don't.

Well, then they all have poor judgment.

[SteelAbility]

if one is reckless and uses poor judgment by not wearing a condom with a partner they don't know that well, then that individual has a higher probability of getting a sexual disease than the person who uses good judgment and wears a condom.

a person not wearing a helmet while operating a vehicle at high speeds that offers no protection (like a motorcycle) is using poor judgment, law or no law.

That example is misleading. In the first example (the condom) causing harm to someone else is involved. In the second, I don't believe it is.

Much like mandatory seat belt law, helmet laws are a bunch of bad word. If the only person you can harm is yourself than it should be your decision whether or not to wear one, period. I'm not getting into how insurance companies might play a part in this crap either.

Point being, you might think it's poor judgment to ride a motorcycle without a helmet. That's your right, so when you ride a motorcycle wear a helmet. Other people don't have to acquiesce to your opinion of what they should do for their own safety.

Ok, so it's my opinion that when sky-diving I should wear a parachute. But it's just MY opinion, right?? :roll:

[hawaiiansteel]

if one is reckless and uses poor judgment by not wearing a condom with a partner they don't know that well, then that individual has a higher probability of getting a sexual disease than the person who uses good judgment and wears a condom.

a person not wearing a helmet while operating a vehicle at high speeds that offers no protection (like a motorcycle) is using poor judgment, law or no law.

That example is misleading. In the first example (the condom) causing harm to someone else is involved. In the second, I don't believe it is.

Much like mandatory seat belt law, helmet laws are a bunch of bad word. If the only person you can harm is yourself than it should be your decision whether or not to wear one, period. I'm not getting into how insurance companies might play a part in this crap either.

Point being, you might think it's poor judgment to ride a motorcycle without a helmet. That's your right, so when you ride a motorcycle wear a helmet. Other people don't have to acquiesce to your opinion of what they should do for their own safety.

Ok, so it's my opinion that when sky-diving I should wear a parachute. But it's just MY opinion, right?? :roll:


yes, and when you die you only hurt yourself. you don't hurt all the loved ones you leave behind... :cry:

[feltdizz]

He hasn't been on a motorcycle without a helmet since the accident though has he? Not sure if they changed the laws or not. Ben can do anything legal no matter how dangerous it is. It's his life, like Drago said in Rocky 4.. or 5. "If he dies, he dies"

The Rooneys would get over it... I know we all would. (sarcasm)

What's your point? Seriously?

I have no idea if he's been on a motorcycle without a helmet since. I also have no idea if he would be basing his decision to wear one off of concern for his own safety or another reason.

It seems your point is that since "we fans" and "the Steelers organization" would be affected in a negative way then Ben should make his decisions based on that...

I don't agree. He's a person. He has free will. If it's not against the law and it's not in his contract not to do then he can do whatever the bad word he wants. You can sit around and say it was a dumb decision all you want. It's what the armchair quarterbacks do best.

However, when it's all done and said, crap happens to people regardless of their actual intentions and sometimes regardless of what safety precautions they take. If he was wearing a helmet would you be talking about how bad a decision it is for a 100 million dollar man to be riding a motorcycle at all? I bet you would.

If this latest thing happened in the confines of his own home with a girl that was supposed to be hush-hush and everything cool...but then went against her word and tried to get some money out of him anyway...(for the record I'm not saying anything about his guilt or innocence in the ongoing investigations...because I. Wasn't. There.)...then would you be talking about how he needs to just get married and quit banging all types of girls? I bet you would.

My point is that you can never be 100 percent safe about anything for one. Another point is that we, as fans, don't own Ben Roethlisberger. He's a man. He might be "different" than the average joe for some reasons, but in the end last I checked he can do whatever the hell he wants. I think the fans that are talking about how stupid he is for going out to a club nearby one of his homes for his birthday with at least one friend and a bunch of bodyguards should seriously just shut the hell up and worry about their own lives. Judge not, lest ye be judged and all that. Glass houses, etc etc.

I'll be getting a new bicycle soon, and when I do...guess what? I won't be wearing a helmet when I ride it. I could easily fall off of it and break my jaw? How do I know? Because I broke my jaw while riding a bicycle before. Would wearing a helmet have helped? Maybe. However, it's my damn decision to make. If you want to sit around and talk about how stupid I am for not wearing a helmet go for it. In the end, it will you sitting around making judgments on other people's decisions instead of tending your own house.

Well, first off it's not about you... while I wouldn't want you to fall off your bike again, if you did your immediate family would be crushed and they would have opinions on your choice to go without a helmet.

Now about Ben, we are on a Steeler message board right? Why is it so wrong to talk about whether this situation is good for the Steelers or not? Are we limited to just talking about the greatness of the Steelers and not the unfortunate circumstances?

I'm just a fan with an opinion... I don't have to wait for the whole story to come out to give my theory on Ben's judgement.

A funny thing is happening on this board... Those who are frustrated with multiple SA allegations against the best QB since Bradshaw are now being blamed for fanning the imaginary flames. Why is the Post Gazette, ESPN, Huffington, CBS, etc etc etc.. are all talking about this but we can't?

Ben is a franchise QB, was asked to stop riding his bike, almost lost his life but Steeler fans on a Steeler board can't speak on it?

Hmm... OK. I guess Holmes being reported to have tested positive and missing 4 games is off limits too? We can't talk about the stupidity because it's his life, just report the grade of weed and how much he smoked and let it rest. It sure sounds like those defending Ben's reckless behavior or unfortunate experiences don't have his best interest at heart. I just want the Steelers QB to be around to win as many games as possible. Shame on me.

I thought it was a message board... my bad.

[feltdizz]

It seems your point is that since "we fans" and "the Steelers organization" would be affected in a negative way then Ben should make his decisions based on that...

You mean to tell me a football player worth 100 million and property of the Steelers can live as reckless as possible? Huh?

Ben belongs to the Steelers... whether he likes it or not. If he wants to do whatever he wants the. he should retire or stop cashing the checks.

[eniparadoxgma]

I would disagree. If you don't have a helmet, then that can change the way you drive when you see danger coming and that can lead to harming someone who otherwise wouldn't have been harmed. It's the Heisenberg principle. The moment you change one factor in any experiment, the entire experiment is affected.

Furthermore, the argument implies that the condom-wearer is known to be clean. It's talking about the risk of incurring injury to oneself.

You can't seriously be citing the Uncertainty Principle as justification for someone wearing a helmet so as not to harm others...because they might change the way they drive with or without a helmet...

So I'll just leave this alone.

[eniparadoxgma]

Ok, so it's my opinion that when sky-diving I should wear a parachute. But it's just MY opinion, right?? :roll:

Let me rephrase this then:

Ultimately, his safety is his own concern and not the concern of others. I'm not saying it would be okay for him to do ANYTHING he wants. I'm saying that...up to a certain point he should be able to do whatever he wants that doesn't overtly harm others and that includes choosing to wear a helmet, riding a motorcycle, going to a bar on your birthday, having consensual sex with whoever the hell you want, etc etc.

He's not fighting UFC or joined a suicidal cult. He rode his motorcycle around and went out to a club for his birthday.

[hawaiiansteel]

Ben needs to stop hitting up on Glenn Close's daughters... :twisted:

[eniparadoxgma]

You mean to tell me a football player worth 100 million and property of the Steelers can live as reckless as possible? Huh?

Straw. Man. I never said that.


Ben belongs to the Steelers... whether he likes it or not. If he wants to do whatever he wants the. he should retire or stop cashing the checks.

lmao I didn't realize you were owned by your employer. Good to know.

[eniparadoxgma]

(2nd attempt to answer this post. The internets ate the first one.)

Feel like I should be carrying a bucket of corn with all of these straw men around. :)


Well, first off it's not about you... while I wouldn't want you to fall off your bike again, if you did your immediate family would be crushed and they would have opinions on your choice to go without a helmet.


I'm quite aware that this is not about me. Surely you've been in a conversation at some point where someone attempted to use themselves as an example to explain their take on a situation in which they weren't originally involved... I think you're missing my point. Ultimately it will still be my decision to wear a helmet or not. I thought the relevance apparent.


Now about Ben, we are on a Steeler message board right?

I think so.


Why is it so wrong to talk about whether this situation is good for the Steelers or not?

Didn't say it was.


Are we limited to just talking about the greatness of the Steelers and not the unfortunate circumstances?

Don't think so. Consult the TOS and/or board rules.


I'm just a fan with an opinion... I don't have to wait for the whole story to come out to give my theory on Ben's judgement.

Okay.


A funny thing is happening on this board... Those who are frustrated with multiple SA allegations against the best QB since Bradshaw are now being blamed for fanning the imaginary flames.

Fwiw, [being frustrated with multiple SA allegations] does not equal [blaming Ben for poor judgment for not wearing a helmet while operating a motorcycle or going to a bar for your birthday].


Why is the Post Gazette, ESPN, Huffington, CBS, etc etc etc.. are all talking about this but we can't?

Still don't remember saying that.


Ben is a franchise QB, was asked to stop riding his bike, almost lost his life but Steeler fans on a Steeler board can't speak on it?

See above.


Hmm... OK. I guess Holmes being reported to have tested positive and missing 4 games is off limits too? We can't talk about the stupidity because it's his life, just report the grade of weed and how much he smoked and let it rest.

See above.


It sure sounds like those defending Ben's reckless behavior or unfortunate experiences don't have his best interest at heart. I just want the Steelers QB to be around to win as many games as possible. Shame on me.

I have the interests of myself and society as a whole at heart. If he's guilty of an actual sexual assault, attempted rape, or something of the sort then I want him punished by the harshest letter of the law. If he's innocent of the charges, then I think he should be publicly exonerated, given an apology, the accuser should be put in jail to dissuade others from attempting this type of thing, and then...I want him to be around to win as many games as possible.

Choosing to wear a helmet when riding a motorcycle is his choice IMO. Choosing to go out to a bar for his birthday is his choice IMO.


I thought it was a message board... my bad.

Okay.

[feltdizz]

You mean to tell me a football player worth 100 million and property of the Steelers can live as reckless as possible? Huh?

Straw. Man. I never said that.


Ben belongs to the Steelers... whether he likes it or not. If he wants to do whatever he wants the. he should retire or stop cashing the checks.

lmao I didn't realize you were owned by your employer. Good to know.

He isn't a slave... but best believe he is a well paid servant of the Steelers and represents them whether he is on the field or off it. Keep laughing... because this is funny.

Ben and the Steelers probably thinks this is hilarious...

Everyone keeps talking about their job, their employer and their experiences... they clearly are on the level of Big Ben.

[hawaiiansteel]

You mean to tell me a football player worth 100 million and property of the Steelers can live as reckless as possible? Huh?

Straw. Man. I never said that.


Ben belongs to the Steelers... whether he likes it or not. If he wants to do whatever he wants the. he should retire or stop cashing the checks.

lmao I didn't realize you were owned by your employer. Good to know.

He isn't a slave... but best believe he is a well paid servant of the Steelers and represents them whether he is on the field or off it. Keep laughing... because this is funny.

Ben and the Steelers probably thinks this is hilarious...

Everyone keeps talking about their job, their employer and their experiences... they clearly are on the level of Big Ben.



the makers of Big Ben Beef Jerky agree with you -


Big Ben Beef Jerky could go bye-bye

Posted by Mike Florio on March 9, 2010



Though the full impact of a second sexual assault allegation against Steelers quarterback Ben Roethlisbeger remains to be determined, one of his sponsors is getting nervous.

Michael McCarthy of USA Today reports that the folks who make "Big Ben Beef Jerky" have spoken out regarding the latest development.

"It's just very concerning," PLB Sports president and CEO Ty Ballou told McCarthy. ""Ben is a single guy. He has every right to be out doing what he's doing. But when you're the quarterback of any team, especially the Steelers, you have to take extra measures. . . . Obviously, this is very concerning for all parties. This is the second time this has come out. . . .

"It's troubling," Ballou added. "You want the offseason to be quiet. You have to put yourself in a good positions. And Ben unfortunately hasn't. You even go back to the motorcycle accident. Whatever happened down there [in Georgia], I hope this will truly be the last time something like this happens. Ben's a good person. He does a lot for charity. But for his career, his fans and his family, you have to make good decisions."

[eniparadoxgma]

He isn't a slave... but best believe he is a well paid servant of the Steelers and represents them whether he is on the field or off it. Keep laughing... because this is funny.

Ben and the Steelers probably thinks this is hilarious...

Everyone keeps talking about their job, their employer and their experiences... they clearly are on the level of Big Ben.

What I'm talking about is actually pretty serious.

I don't believe that an employer owns you to any extent outside of whatever is in the contract you sign and what your job expectations are, regardless of what said job or employer is. I understand how certain things would be frowned down upon, but going to a bar on your birthday isn't really one of them IMO.

Yes, I think of myself "on the level of Big Ben" in the things that actually matter. Are we throwing out the Constitution now? :nono I don't think myself on his level when it comes to playing football or how much wealth he has.

[feltdizz]

I love when people carve up a post...

I never said Ben choices should be made by me... I think he should make better choices, that's all.

Ben could choose to sleep with Rupaul on film... It's his choice but would I like it or approve of it? No. Does my opinion his choices matter? No..

But it sure seems like Ben's choices are leading him down some dark paths. I'm just commenting on them.

[sd steel]

I think whether you want to make a judgement or not is up to you. But I think we can all agree that Ben needs to take some classes in risk management.

[feltdizz]

He isn't a slave... but best believe he is a well paid servant of the Steelers and represents them whether he is on the field or off it. Keep laughing... because this is funny.

Ben and the Steelers probably thinks this is hilarious...

Everyone keeps talking about their job, their employer and their experiences... they clearly are on the level of Big Ben.

What I'm talking about is actually pretty serious.

I don't believe that an employer owns you to any extent outside of whatever is in the contract you sign and what your job expectations are, regardless of what said job or employer is. I understand how certain things would be frowned down upon, but going to a bar on your birthday isn't really one of them IMO.

Yes, I think of myself "on the level of Big Ben" in the things that actually matter. Are we throwing out the Constitution now? :nono I don't think myself on his level when it comes to playing football or how much wealth he has.

When you are paid 100 million dollars the expectations are much higher... When you have our name linked to rape/sexual assualt the stakes are much higher.

Look at the Denver situation with Marshall and the player who was shot and killed. They didn't do anythng wrong but Marshall talking tough to gang members who had nothing to lose got his friend killed. Jumping into a strangers car in Vegas with a half million in jewels on almost got him killed.

I'm not saying you are less of a human then Ben... just saying Ben has more to lose in the media and public realm.

[feltdizz]

I think whether you want to make a judgement or not is up to you. But I think we can all agree that Ben needs to take some classes in risk management.

apparently saying Ben needs to do anything to assume less risk is making judgement and finger pointing. Worry about yourself! :nono

[sd steel]

I think whether you want to make a judgement or not is up to you. But I think we can all agree that Ben needs to take some classes in risk management.

apparently saying Ben needs to do anything to assume less risk is making judgement and finger pointing. Worry about yourself! :nono
:tt1 :tt1 :tt1

I am a Steeler fan, so in reality I own Ben. If he doesn't want me to judge him, don't wear stupid shirts in public, bang ugly and underage chicks who accuse you of rape and sexual assault, and don't ride your motorcycle without a helmet and get into accidents. :D

Basically this goes for anyone who wants to make a spectacle of themselves and then who doesn't want to be judged. If you give me a reason to judge you either by accident, (sexual assault, drug bust, dui), or on purpose, (purple hair, tattooed face, saggy pants), I will judge you, because it is human nature and that's what we do. If you don't want to be judged negatively, don't do or wear stuff that would make me judge you that way. Otherwise expect me to look at you and judge your stupid a$$. :Cheers

[Shawn]

I don't know how many touchy subjects have been brought up by the Ben debates but it must be a new record. My count...

1) Rape
2) HIV/AIDS
3) Child Molestation
4) Slavery vs servantude
5) Religion
6) Alcoholism
7) Murder
8] Suicidal Cults

Then the worst of them all...drafting Tim Tebow. :shock: :lol:

[NJ-STEELER]

Ben should just retire from football .

afterall, its a reckless lifstyle he chooses that could end up in permanent brain injury and has proven to lead to a shorter life span

[sd steel]

Ben should just retire from football .

afterall, its a reckless lifstyle he chooses that could end up in permanent brain injury and has proven to lead to a shorter life span


If Ben doesn't want the lime light, or the responsibilty that goes with it, I agree. Live in Podunk, get drunk, bang skanks, and retire from our organization.

The problem is he loves the fame, so he has to conform and be accountable. If he retired tomorrow Big Ben is not a story for groping a coed. But he needs to make the decision after winning the lottery. If he wants the next check and the fame he needs to start managing his risk. Otherwise he can leave. I root for this team, and I don't want to have to defend him everytime an opposing fan wants to pop off. It might be different if you live in the Burgh, but being a fan outside of Pittsburgh has always been awesome, but all the sudden with a serial sexual offender as your QB it is easy to take heat, whereas I would much rather be able to say "Sixburgh City of Champions", without getting "Sexburgh your QB is a rapist". He has a responsibility to the fans to stay clear of trouble. We are the ones buying the tix, the NFL ticket and the jerseys.

[hawaiiansteel]

Ben should just retire from football .

afterall, its a reckless lifstyle he chooses that could end up in permanent brain injury and has proven to lead to a shorter life span



Q - do you know what you call a guy who rides a motorcycle without a helmet?

A - organ donor

[Shawn]

Ben should just retire from football .

afterall, its a reckless lifstyle he chooses that could end up in permanent brain injury and has proven to lead to a shorter life span



Q - do you know what you call a guy who rides a motorcycle without a helmet?

A - organ donor

I prefer to call em suicycles but to each their own. :D

[NJ-STEELER]

Ben should just retire from football .

afterall, its a reckless lifstyle he chooses that could end up in permanent brain injury and has proven to lead to a shorter life span



Q - do you know what you call a guy who rides a motorcycle without a helmet?

A - organ donor

hey, personally i cant stand bikes. dont want to hear one mororing away 5 blocks away while i'm watching TV with the window open.

but, a pesrson has the right to ride

[NJ-STEELER]

[quote="NJ-STEELER":oy6jq4e8]Ben should just retire from football .

afterall, its a reckless lifstyle he chooses that could end up in permanent brain injury and has proven to lead to a shorter life span


If Ben doesn't want the lime light, or the responsibilty that goes with it, I agree. Live in Podunk, get drunk, bang skanks, and retire from our organization.

The problem is he loves the fame, so he has to conform and be accountable. If he retired tomorrow Big Ben is not a story for groping a coed. But he needs to make the decision after winning the lottery. If he wants the next check and the fame he needs to start managing his risk. Otherwise he can leave. I root for this team, and I don't want to have to defend him everytime an opposing fan wants to pop off. It might be different if you live in the Burgh, but being a fan outside of Pittsburgh has always been awesome, but all the sudden with a serial sexual offender as your QB it is easy to take heat, whereas I would much rather be able to say "Sixburgh City of Champions", without getting "Sexburgh your QB is a rapist". He has a responsibility to the fans to stay clear of trouble. We are the ones buying the tix, the NFL ticket and the jerseys.[/quote:oy6jq4e8]

as someone stated on this site, some will be mad for the ribbing they take from others.

you're one of those people i can see

[eniparadoxgma]

I love when people carve up a post...

I never said Ben choices should be made by me... I think he should make better choices, that's all.

Ben could choose to sleep with Rupaul on film... It's his choice but would I like it or approve of it? No. Does my opinion his choices matter? No..

But it sure seems like Ben's choices are leading him down some dark paths. I'm just commenting on them.

Going to try to rephrase this again:

I'm disagreeing with the notion that riding a motorcycle without a helmet is anyone's decision other than the person who is riding the motorcycle unless it's against the law. I don't consider not wearing a helmet an "unnecessary risk" but instead his right.

I'm disagreeing with the notion that going to a bar or club to celebrate your birthday even if you have a pending civil case the likes of which he has is an "unnecessary risk". Unless he had the express purpose in mind in going there to do something illegal I don't think going to a club is a big deal.

We're disagreeing. It happens.

[eniparadoxgma]

I think whether you want to make a judgement or not is up to you. But I think we can all agree that Ben needs to take some classes in risk management.

Hindsight is 20/20. I still don't think he's done anything risky by going to a club to celebrate his birthday.

[eniparadoxgma]

When you are paid 100 million dollars the expectations are much higher... When you have our name linked to rape/sexual assualt the stakes are much higher.

Look at the Denver situation with Marshall and the player who was shot and killed. They didn't do anythng wrong but Marshall talking tough to gang members who had nothing to lose got his friend killed. Jumping into a strangers car in Vegas with a half million in jewels on almost got him killed.

I'm not saying you are less of a human then Ben... just saying Ben has more to lose in the media and public realm.

Our name? I don't associate myself enough with a football player to have issues like this. If he did something illegal then he should be punished. If he didn't he should be exonerated.

Not sure what the relevance is of the Denver situation.

I guess he has more to lose in terms of endorsements...and money? What else? Little kids look up to him? It hasn't been proven in any court of law that he's done anything illegal in any way shape or form.

He's a horrible role model for going to a club on his birthday? Is this what you're saying?

[eniparadoxgma]

:tt1 :tt1 :tt1

I am a Steeler fan, so in reality I own Ben. If he doesn't want me to judge him, don't wear stupid shirts in public, bang ugly and underage chicks who accuse you of rape and sexual assault, and don't ride your motorcycle without a helmet and get into accidents. :D

Basically this goes for anyone who wants to make a spectacle of themselves and then who doesn't want to be judged. If you give me a reason to judge you either by accident, (sexual assault, drug bust, dui), or on purpose, (purple hair, tattooed face, saggy pants), I will judge you, because it is human nature and that's what we do. If you don't want to be judged negatively, don't do or wear stuff that would make me judge you that way. Otherwise expect me to look at you and judge your stupid a$$. :Cheers

The "judge lest ye be judged" was more of an appeal to Christian ethics than my own sentiments. I think perceiving and judging to a degree are inseparable. I couldn't state my opinion that Ben didn't do anything wacky, risky, or otherwise self-destructive by going to a club to celebrate his birthday if I wasn't evaluating it.

Being accused of something doesn't imply guilt one way or another. There are countless examples of people being accused of things they just plain did not do. So what we're having a cow over is Ben going to a club to celebrate his birthday, since we don't know anything else solid, right? That's what all this is about?

For the record, at this point in time I will echo someone else's opinion that the shirt and mullet are the things I take the biggest issue with.

[eniparadoxgma]

If Ben doesn't want the lime light, or the responsibilty that goes with it, I agree. Live in Podunk, get drunk, bang skanks, and retire from our organization.

The problem is he loves the fame, so he has to conform and be accountable. If he retired tomorrow Big Ben is not a story for groping a coed. But he needs to make the decision after winning the lottery. If he wants the next check and the fame he needs to start managing his risk. Otherwise he can leave. I root for this team, and I don't want to have to defend him everytime an opposing fan wants to pop off. It might be different if you live in the Burgh, but being a fan outside of Pittsburgh has always been awesome, but all the sudden with a serial sexual offender as your QB it is easy to take heat, whereas I would much rather be able to say "Sixburgh City of Champions", without getting "Sexburgh your QB is a rapist". He has a responsibility to the fans to stay clear of trouble. We are the ones buying the tix, the NFL ticket and the jerseys.

Seems like you really let other people get to you. I can't empathize. If it comes out that he's guilty of something screwed up and illegal then I will be pissed that I wasted time rooting for a douche. I'm sure one of the Bungles fans I know around here might try to say something but so what?

Again, if he is innocent of any possible charges that may come against him then I'm not really going to care what anyone has to say. Why would I?

[eniparadoxgma]

hey, personally i cant stand bikes. dont want to hear one mororing away 5 blocks away while i'm watching TV with the window open.

but, a pesrson has the right to ride

:Agree

[BURGH86STEEL]

When you are paid 100 million dollars the expectations are much higher... When you have our name linked to rape/sexual assualt the stakes are much higher.

Look at the Denver situation with Marshall and the player who was shot and killed. They didn't do anythng wrong but Marshall talking tough to gang members who had nothing to lose got his friend killed. Jumping into a strangers car in Vegas with a half million in jewels on almost got him killed.

I'm not saying you are less of a human then Ben... just saying Ben has more to lose in the media and public realm.

Our name? I don't associate myself enough with a football player to have issues like this. If he did something illegal then he should be punished. If he didn't he should be exonerated.

Not sure what the relevance is of the Denver situation.

I guess he has more to lose in terms of endorsements...and money? What else? Little kids look up to him? It hasn't been proven in any court of law that he's done anything illegal in any way shape or form.

He's a horrible role model for going to a club on his birthday? Is this what you're saying?

I believe the situation goes a little deeper then going to a club on his birthday. He put himself in a situation to be accused in the first place. With his fame and fortune, inviting women he does not know to be a part of his private party is putting ones self in a questionable position. The fact that there is so much riff raff around this case speaks to it being a questionable decision. The negative thoughts people have about Ben being a womanizing disrespectful man to ladies is enough to turn off a lot of fans. Guilty or not, mostly negative press and thoughts are coming out of this situation. That is something that no corporation wants (see Toyota). Unfortunately, we no longer live in a world where cases need to be proven in a court of law for people to have opinions and rumors to started or continued.

In any event, Ben has so much more to lose then the young lady or any woman for that matter. Is a one party stand really worth it? lol

[sd steel]

[quote="sd steel":2wllzge1][quote="NJ-STEELER":2wllzge1]Ben should just retire from football .

afterall, its a reckless lifstyle he chooses that could end up in permanent brain injury and has proven to lead to a shorter life span


If Ben doesn't want the lime light, or the responsibilty that goes with it, I agree. Live in Podunk, get drunk, bang skanks, and retire from our organization.

The problem is he loves the fame, so he has to conform and be accountable. If he retired tomorrow Big Ben is not a story for groping a coed. But he needs to make the decision after winning the lottery. If he wants the next check and the fame he needs to start managing his risk. Otherwise he can leave. I root for this team, and I don't want to have to defend him everytime an opposing fan wants to pop off. It might be different if you live in the Burgh, but being a fan outside of Pittsburgh has always been awesome, but all the sudden with a serial sexual offender as your QB it is easy to take heat, whereas I would much rather be able to say "Sixburgh City of Champions", without getting "Sexburgh your QB is a rapist". He has a responsibility to the fans to stay clear of trouble. We are the ones buying the tix, the NFL ticket and the jerseys.[/quote:2wllzge1]

as someone stated on this site, some will be mad for the ribbing they take from others.

you're one of those people i can see[/quote:2wllzge1]


No I'm just tired of having to defend him, or explain to my 10 year old why his teams QB keeps getting in trouble for alledgedly mistreating women.

[cruzer8]

[quote="sd steel":1d1eaw7h][quote="NJ-STEELER":1d1eaw7h]Ben should just retire from football .

afterall, its a reckless lifstyle he chooses that could end up in permanent brain injury and has proven to lead to a shorter life span


If Ben doesn't want the lime light, or the responsibilty that goes with it, I agree. Live in Podunk, get drunk, bang skanks, and retire from our organization.

The problem is he loves the fame, so he has to conform and be accountable. If he retired tomorrow Big Ben is not a story for groping a coed. But he needs to make the decision after winning the lottery. If he wants the next check and the fame he needs to start managing his risk. Otherwise he can leave. I root for this team, and I don't want to have to defend him everytime an opposing fan wants to pop off. It might be different if you live in the Burgh, but being a fan outside of Pittsburgh has always been awesome, but all the sudden with a serial sexual offender as your QB it is easy to take heat, whereas I would much rather be able to say "Sixburgh City of Champions", without getting "Sexburgh your QB is a rapist". He has a responsibility to the fans to stay clear of trouble. We are the ones buying the tix, the NFL ticket and the jerseys.[/quote:1d1eaw7h]

as someone stated on this site, some will be mad for the ribbing they take from others.

you're one of those people i can see[/quote:1d1eaw7h]

Yup.

I've had a few people giving me crap about it. I just look at them and say, "I'm not Ben."

They shut right up.

[feltdizz]

[quote="sd steel":153m5n7e][quote="NJ-STEELER":153m5n7e]Ben should just retire from football .

afterall, its a reckless lifstyle he chooses that could end up in permanent brain injury and has proven to lead to a shorter life span


If Ben doesn't want the lime light, or the responsibilty that goes with it, I agree. Live in Podunk, get drunk, bang skanks, and retire from our organization.

The problem is he loves the fame, so he has to conform and be accountable. If he retired tomorrow Big Ben is not a story for groping a coed. But he needs to make the decision after winning the lottery. If he wants the next check and the fame he needs to start managing his risk. Otherwise he can leave. I root for this team, and I don't want to have to defend him everytime an opposing fan wants to pop off. It might be different if you live in the Burgh, but being a fan outside of Pittsburgh has always been awesome, but all the sudden with a serial sexual offender as your QB it is easy to take heat, whereas I would much rather be able to say "Sixburgh City of Champions", without getting "Sexburgh your QB is a rapist". He has a responsibility to the fans to stay clear of trouble. We are the ones buying the tix, the NFL ticket and the jerseys.

as someone stated on this site, some will be mad for the ribbing they take from others.

you're one of those people i can see[/quote:153m5n7e]

Yup.

I've had a few people giving me crap about it. I just look at them and say, "I'm not Ben."

They shut right up.[/quote:153m5n7e]

You definitely are not.

But you sure are acting like it running around telling everyone what to care about.

[cruzer8]

[quote="sd steel":3q7ki0i9][quote="NJ-STEELER":3q7ki0i9]Ben should just retire from football .

afterall, its a reckless lifstyle he chooses that could end up in permanent brain injury and has proven to lead to a shorter life span


If Ben doesn't want the lime light, or the responsibilty that goes with it, I agree. Live in Podunk, get drunk, bang skanks, and retire from our organization.

The problem is he loves the fame, so he has to conform and be accountable. If he retired tomorrow Big Ben is not a story for groping a coed. But he needs to make the decision after winning the lottery. If he wants the next check and the fame he needs to start managing his risk. Otherwise he can leave. I root for this team, and I don't want to have to defend him everytime an opposing fan wants to pop off. It might be different if you live in the Burgh, but being a fan outside of Pittsburgh has always been awesome, but all the sudden with a serial sexual offender as your QB it is easy to take heat, whereas I would much rather be able to say "Sixburgh City of Champions", without getting "Sexburgh your QB is a rapist". He has a responsibility to the fans to stay clear of trouble. We are the ones buying the tix, the NFL ticket and the jerseys.

as someone stated on this site, some will be mad for the ribbing they take from others.

you're one of those people i can see

Yup.

I've had a few people giving me crap about it. I just look at them and say, "I'm not Ben."

They shut right up.[/quote:3q7ki0i9]

You definitely are not.

But you sure are acting like it running around telling everyone what to care about.[/quote:3q7ki0i9]

http://www.kk.org/thetechnium/zero.0.jpg

That is the amount of sense in your post.

[eniparadoxgma]

I believe the situation goes a little deeper then going to a club on his birthday. He put himself in a situation to be accused in the first place. With his fame and fortune, inviting women he does not know to be a part of his private party is putting ones self in a questionable position. The fact that there is so much riff raff around this case speaks to it being a questionable decision.

At the time of my previous comments, there was nothing known about him having sexual contact with the girl. So I maintain that going to a club for your birthday is not an unnecessary risk. Unless you stay in a locked room and have no sexual contact with anyone whatsoever I believe there is a risk that you can be accused of something.

Putting yourself in a area with a girl where no one can see you to do something sexual while you have a pending civil case like he has is just stupid. I have no problem admitting that at all. I had no knowledge (no one did) that that was what occurred at the time of my earlier comments.


The negative thoughts people have about Ben being a womanizing disrespectful man to ladies is enough to turn off a lot of fans.

I really have no evidence of him being a womanizing disrespectful man so I'm not affected by it.


Guilty or not, mostly negative press and thoughts are coming out of this situation. That is something that no corporation wants (see Toyota). Unfortunately, we no longer live in a world where cases need to be proven in a court of law for people to have opinions and rumors to started or continued.

None of this affects me. His sponsor deals are his, not mine, and I couldn't care less if he has any at all. I prefer not seeing his face on the TV every 5 seconds a la the Mannings.


In any event, Ben has so much more to lose then the young lady or any woman for that matter. Is a one party stand really worth it? lol

I don't think so. I've never argued that having sexual relations with a random chick at a bar where there are no witnesses while you have a civil case pending was a good idea.

I said the act of going out to a bar w/bodyguards to celebrate your birthday is not in and of itself an unnecessary risk or a big deal. That's it.

[Shawn]

[quote="sd steel":78ijss0x][quote="NJ-STEELER":78ijss0x]Ben should just retire from football .

afterall, its a reckless lifstyle he chooses that could end up in permanent brain injury and has proven to lead to a shorter life span


If Ben doesn't want the lime light, or the responsibilty that goes with it, I agree. Live in Podunk, get drunk, bang skanks, and retire from our organization.

The problem is he loves the fame, so he has to conform and be accountable. If he retired tomorrow Big Ben is not a story for groping a coed. But he needs to make the decision after winning the lottery. If he wants the next check and the fame he needs to start managing his risk. Otherwise he can leave. I root for this team, and I don't want to have to defend him everytime an opposing fan wants to pop off. It might be different if you live in the Burgh, but being a fan outside of Pittsburgh has always been awesome, but all the sudden with a serial sexual offender as your QB it is easy to take heat, whereas I would much rather be able to say "Sixburgh City of Champions", without getting "Sexburgh your QB is a rapist". He has a responsibility to the fans to stay clear of trouble. We are the ones buying the tix, the NFL ticket and the jerseys.

as someone stated on this site, some will be mad for the ribbing they take from others.

you're one of those people i can see

Yup.

I've had a few people giving me crap about it. I just look at them and say, "I'm not Ben."

They shut right up.[/quote:78ijss0x]

You definitely are not.

But you sure are acting like it running around telling everyone what to care about.[/quote:78ijss0x]

Hmm...interesting. I thought that's what you were doing.

[feltdizz]

Yup.

I've had a few people giving me crap about it. I just look at them and say, "I'm not Ben."

They shut right up.

You definitely are not.

But you sure are acting like it running around telling everyone what to care about.

Hmm...interesting. I thought that's what you were doing.

Well Cruzer has stated that he doesn't care....

I, on the other hand, obviously do care what Ben does in his personal life if it has the potential to impact the Steelers... and I also would like to know if I'm cheering for a guy who sexually assaults women.

[Steel Life]

I'm inclined to agree with 'Doxgma - none of this has any direct bearing on me aside from the fact that others cast the team itself in a negative light. But in reality that had already happened thanks to...conspiracy theorists who believe we stole one - if not two - Super Bowls (thank you John Madden!), the apparent "tainted" Super Bowls of the 70s because we were the only team using steroids, and yes the misbehavior of several players (or their families...thank you Tyrone Carter!). What Ben is going thru now is nothing compared to what Kobe had to deal with & he made it thru - with his team supporting him all the while (though conveniently ignoring the fact he was a cheat & a liar) - & if he sidesteps all this, we should do the same.

These guys aren't my or my kids' heroes & I don't need Ben to be a saint to root for the team, I don't care if he's an ass or sleeps around - it doesn't matter to me. As for the collective hand-wringing, I have to explain this no more than I have to explain other crap like Charlie Sheen, Tiger Woods, Brittany Spears, Lindsey Lohan, Paris Hilton & "Girls Gone Wild" commercials.

[papillon]

[quote=BURGH86STEEL]

I believe the situation goes a little deeper then going to a club on his birthday. He put himself in a situation to be accused in the first place. With his fame and fortune, inviting women he does not know to be a part of his private party is putting ones self in a questionable position. The fact that there is so much riff raff around this case speaks to it being a questionable decision.

At the time of my previous comments, there was nothing known about him having sexual contact with the girl. So I maintain that going to a club for your birthday is not an unnecessary risk. Unless you stay in a locked room and have no sexual contact with anyone whatsoever I believe there is a risk that you can be accused of something.

Putting yourself in a area with a girl where no one can see you to do something sexual while you have a pending civil case like he has is just stupid. I have no problem admitting that at all. I had no knowledge (no one did) that that was what occurred at the time of my earlier comments.


The negative thoughts people have about Ben being a womanizing disrespectful man to ladies is enough to turn off a lot of fans.

I really have no evidence of him being a womanizing disrespectful man so I'm not affected by it.


Guilty or not, mostly negative press and thoughts are coming out of this situation. That is something that no corporation wants (see Toyota). Unfortunately, we no longer live in a world where cases need to be proven in a court of law for people to have opinions and rumors to started or continued.

None of this affects me. His sponsor deals are his, not mine, and I couldn't care less if he has any at all. I prefer not seeing his face on the TV every 5 seconds a la the Mannings.


In any event, Ben has so much more to lose then the young lady or any woman for that matter. Is a one party stand really worth it? lol

I don't think so. I've never argued that having sexual relations with a random chick at a bar where there are no witnesses while you have a civil case pending was a good idea.

I said the act of going out to a bar w/bodyguards to celebrate your birthday is not in and of itself an unnecessary risk or a big deal. That's it.[/quote:2a60q169]

Celebrating your birthday isn't an unnecessary risk. Trying to have sex with an unknown female in the VIP bathroom is an unnecessary risk for Ben. This, I beleive, is what most people are saying, you included.

Pappy

[eniparadoxgma]

Celebrating your birthday isn't an unnecessary risk. Trying to have sex with an unknown female in the VIP bathroom is an unnecessary risk for Ben. This, I beleive, is what most people are saying, you included.

Pappy

Considering no one had any knowledge at the time of the majority of this thread other than Ben had went to a club for his birthday w/bodyguards and some chick accused him of sexual assault, I don't think you're right.

Many, many people were saying he had taken an unnecessary risk when the only fact known was that he had went to a club.

[feltdizz]

Celebrating your birthday isn't an unnecessary risk. Trying to have sex with an unknown female in the VIP bathroom is an unnecessary risk for Ben. This, I beleive, is what most people are saying, you included.

Pappy

Considering no one had any knowledge at the time of the majority of this thread other than Ben had went to a club for his birthday w/bodyguards and some chick accused him of sexual assault, I don't think you're right.

Many, many people were saying he had taken an unnecessary risk when the only fact known was that he had went to a club.

Maybe Im just too self righteous... I think going out to different bars late at night with body guards when you are linked/named to a civil trial is poor judgment IMHO.

People ask Ben should live in a bubble... I think I would lay very low if under similar circumstances. Tiger cheated on his wife but he broke no laws... If his friend has a bachelor party at a strip club and his photo is taken with some hoes he is stupid. No laws are broken but he is very stupid and he creates the frame work for a whole new scandal.

People keep saying it can happen walking down the street... or it can happen at a fast food restaurant. That is some bull$hit... Sexual Assualt usually happens behind closed doors because sex isn't the most attractive thing to watch in public. For some reason Ben keeps closing the doors
with strangers to have sex.

[papillon]

Celebrating your birthday isn't an unnecessary risk. Trying to have sex with an unknown female in the VIP bathroom is an unnecessary risk for Ben. This, I beleive, is what most people are saying, you included.

Pappy

Considering no one had any knowledge at the time of the majority of this thread other than Ben had went to a club for his birthday w/bodyguards and some chick accused him of sexual assault, I don't think you're right.

Many, many people were saying he had taken an unnecessary risk when the only fact known was that he had went to a club.

I don't think so, I'm fairly certain from the start we all knew that she was accusing him of sexual assault. I doubt Ben Roethlisberger celebrating his birthday in Georgia is headline news (maybe in Milledgeville, Georgia, but not in the rest of the country). It became national news the moment she accused him of sexual assault and we all began the where there's smoke there's fire...

Once we knew she was accusing him of a similar crime as McNulty I (I'll leave everyone else to defends themselves) began saying that he needs to exercise better judgment, he isn't one of the guys any longer, reckless, put his teammate (Colon) in an unenviable position, embarrassed the Steelers, the Rooneys deserve better, etc and I stand by that. He isn't one of the guys any longer and needs to be more cognizant of his behavior in public.

Pappy

[NJ-STEELER]

Celebrating your birthday isn't an unnecessary risk. Trying to have sex with an unknown female in the VIP bathroom is an unnecessary risk for Ben. This, I beleive, is what most people are saying, you included.

Pappy

Considering no one had any knowledge at the time of the majority of this thread other than Ben had went to a club for his birthday w/bodyguards and some chick accused him of sexual assault, I don't think you're right.

Many, many people were saying he had taken an unnecessary risk when the only fact known was that he had went to a club.

Maybe Im just too self righteous... I think going out to different bars late at night with body guards when you are linked/named to a civil trial is poor judgment IMHO.

People ask Ben should live in a bubble... I think I would lay very low if under similar circumstances. Tiger cheated on his wife but he broke no laws... If his friend has a bachelor party at a strip club and his photo is taken with some hoes he is stupid. No laws are broken but he is very stupid and he creates the frame work for a whole new scandal.

People keep saying it can happen walking down the street... or it can happen at a fast food restaurant. That is some bull$hit... Sexual Assualt usually happens behind closed doors because sex isn't the most attractive thing to watch in public. For some reason Ben keeps closing the doors
with strangers to have sex.

ben also hasn't broke any laws

and , you're right

you are way to self righteous

[Shawn]

Celebrating your birthday isn't an unnecessary risk. Trying to have sex with an unknown female in the VIP bathroom is an unnecessary risk for Ben. This, I beleive, is what most people are saying, you included.

Pappy

Considering no one had any knowledge at the time of the majority of this thread other than Ben had went to a club for his birthday w/bodyguards and some chick accused him of sexual assault, I don't think you're right.

Many, many people were saying he had taken an unnecessary risk when the only fact known was that he had went to a club.

$$$

[Shawn]

Yup.

I've had a few people giving me crap about it. I just look at them and say, "I'm not Ben."

They shut right up.

You definitely are not.

But you sure are acting like it running around telling everyone what to care about.

Hmm...interesting. I thought that's what you were doing.

Well Cruzer has stated that he doesn't care....

I, on the other hand, obviously do care what Ben does in his personal life if it has the potential to impact the Steelers... and I also would like to know if I'm cheering for a guy who sexually assaults women.


I feel the same. And I agree. I want to know too. But, I want to base that decision on facts...just facts.

[Shawn]

And for the record...I do not root for the Steelers because I believe them to saints. I root for them because I enjoy football and that's my team. With that said, I will not support a team that supports men who rape women, murder people, etc. I will support a team who has players who are womanizers, alcoholics, some guys who are jackacses etc. I guess it's where each person draws their line. I guess we all want to believe we cheer for some sort of higher cause. We want to believe our organization is different. Because that makes us feel good about ourselves. But, the Steelers are not all that different from any other organization. It's a business. They want your money. You pay for entertainment and thats what they provide. We shouldn't make it anything more than that.

[sd steel]

And for the record...I do not root for the Steelers because I believe them to saints. I root for them because I enjoy football and that's my team. With that said, I will not support a team that supports men who rape women, murder people, etc. I will support a team who has players who are womanizers, alcoholics, some guys who are jackacses etc. I guess it's where each person draws their line. I guess we all want to believe we cheer for some sort of higher cause. We want to believe our organization is different. Because that makes us feel good about ourselves. But, the Steelers are not all that different from any other organization. It's a business. They want your money. You pay for entertainment and thats what they provide. We shouldn't make it anything more than that.


Sorry but it is more than that because the team, in most cases, either represent the place where we live, or the community that we are from. Yes I do not grasp on to players, like I said before, I root for the colors, and players will come and go, but there is a hometown pride associated with most peoples teams, not to mention the fact that some of us have to explain to our kids why Ben is in trouble again.

I'm just going on record with what I told my kid, he is from Ohio....what do you expect?

[eniparadoxgma]

Maybe Im just too self righteous... I think going out to different bars late at night with body guards when you are linked/named to a civil trial is poor judgment IMHO.

People ask Ben should live in a bubble... I think I would lay very low if under similar circumstances. Tiger cheated on his wife but he broke no laws... If his friend has a bachelor party at a strip club and his photo is taken with some hoes he is stupid. No laws are broken but he is very stupid and he creates the frame work for a whole new scandal.

People keep saying it can happen walking down the street... or it can happen at a fast food restaurant. That is some bull$hit... Sexual Assualt usually happens behind closed doors because sex isn't the most attractive thing to watch in public. For some reason Ben keeps closing the doors
with strangers to have sex.

Originally, all we knew was that he was accused and the accuser had listed his weight and height. That, to me, didn't mean that anything had actually happened between them. It could have been complete BS. Therefore, with the facts presented, the only thing that was known was that he went to a bar and was accused of something. Accusations are not always founded in reality. Therefore, the only thing it was known that he had did was go to the bar in question.

You think him going out to a bar is bad judgment. I don't. We disagree. Life goes on.

[eniparadoxgma]

I don't think so, I'm fairly certain from the start we all knew that she was accusing him of sexual assault. I doubt Ben Roethlisberger celebrating his birthday in Georgia is headline news (maybe in Milledgeville, Georgia, but not in the rest of the country). It became national news the moment she accused him of sexual assault and we all began the where there's smoke there's fire...

Once we knew she was accusing him of a similar crime as McNulty I (I'll leave everyone else to defends themselves) began saying that he needs to exercise better judgment, he isn't one of the guys any longer, reckless, put his teammate (Colon) in an unenviable position, embarrassed the Steelers, the Rooneys deserve better, etc and I stand by that. He isn't one of the guys any longer and needs to be more cognizant of his behavior in public.

Pappy

Again, being accused of something doesn't necessarily imply any actual wrongdoing. Also, "where there's smoke there's fire" is a handy phrase that holds true a lot of the time. However, it is not some kind of law that always holds true by any means. If "where there's smoke, there's fire" then I think we have a lot more to worry about than him getting off (ha). We have to worry that we have some kind of aggressive sexual deviant that tries to take what they want from women, don't we? Because...where there's smoke there's fire? Wouldn't that also mean he's guilty?

Anyhow, I agree with your second paragraph. However, apparently we draw the line at different places. I still maintain that I have no issue with him going out to the bar to celebrate his birthday with an entourage. I also maintain that he's an idiot for rushing to get it on with some random chick in a bathroom by himself. I also maintain that if he's guilty of this then we need to get rid of him ASAP and let the justice system have a shot.

[papillon]

I don't think so, I'm fairly certain from the start we all knew that she was accusing him of sexual assault. I doubt Ben Roethlisberger celebrating his birthday in Georgia is headline news (maybe in Milledgeville, Georgia, but not in the rest of the country). It became national news the moment she accused him of sexual assault and we all began the where there's smoke there's fire...

Once we knew she was accusing him of a similar crime as McNulty I (I'll leave everyone else to defends themselves) began saying that he needs to exercise better judgment, he isn't one of the guys any longer, reckless, put his teammate (Colon) in an unenviable position, embarrassed the Steelers, the Rooneys deserve better, etc and I stand by that. He isn't one of the guys any longer and needs to be more cognizant of his behavior in public.

Pappy

Again, being accused of something doesn't necessarily imply any actual wrongdoing. Also, "where there's smoke there's fire" is a handy phrase that holds true a lot of the time. However, it is not some kind of law that always holds true by any means. If "where there's smoke, there's fire" then I think we have a lot more to worry about than him getting off (ha). We have to worry that we have some kind of aggressive sexual deviant that tries to take what they want from women, don't we? Because...where there's smoke there's fire? Wouldn't that also mean he's guilty?

Anyhow, I agree with your second paragraph. However, apparently we draw the line at different places. I still maintain that I have no issue with him going out to the bar to celebrate his birthday with an entourage. I also maintain that he's an idiot for rushing to get it on with some random chick in a bathroom by himself. I also maintain that if he's guilty of this then we need to get rid of him ASAP and let the justice system have a shot.

Where there's smoke there's fire may be a bad cliche to use in this instance. All I'm saying is he has now been accused twice of the same crime, guilty or not. I am one of those folks that don't believe every woman out there is a gold digger. Now that two women have accused I have to believe that although Idon't believe he's guilty, he does something that doesn't sit well with women, where there's smoke there's fire, so to speak.

I never said going out to celebrate your birthday is a problem in and of itself. It is a problem when you try and shag some chick in the bar that you just met and it goes wrong, whatever "going wrong may mean". If this type of behavior and charges being leveled was a common occurrence with other high profile football players then I'd say, "no big deal". It seems Ben struggles with people skills and women.

Pappy

[eniparadoxgma]

Where there's smoke there's fire may be a bad cliche to use in this instance. All I'm saying is he has now been accused twice of the same crime, guilty or not. I am one of those folks that don't believe every woman out there is a gold digger. Now that two women have accused I have to believe that although Idon't believe he's guilty, he does something that doesn't sit well with women, where there's smoke there's fire, so to speak.

I never said going out to celebrate your birthday is a problem in and of itself. It is a problem when you try and shag some chick in the bar that you just met and it goes wrong, whatever "going wrong may mean". If this type of behavior and charges being leveled was a common occurrence with other high profile football players then I'd say, "no big deal". It seems Ben struggles with people skills and women.

Pappy

The only difference I see between our viewpoints is that you thought he must have done "something" to irk this women and should have been smarter about this kind of thing before we knew he'd even actually touched her.

If you have no problem with him going to the bar, then we don't disagree on much. It seems we only disagree on at what point we had a problem with his behavior. I didn't think (because of a lack of evidence/facts) that he had done anything worth being upset about until he came out and said that they were getting freaky in a bathroom.

Dunno. I typically don't rush to assumptions, but try to wait for enough information to make an informed decision. I guess I'm not really sure what we're debating anymore if anything lol.

[papillon]

Where there's smoke there's fire may be a bad cliche to use in this instance. All I'm saying is he has now been accused twice of the same crime, guilty or not. I am one of those folks that don't believe every woman out there is a gold digger. Now that two women have accused I have to believe that although Idon't believe he's guilty, he does something that doesn't sit well with women, where there's smoke there's fire, so to speak.

I never said going out to celebrate your birthday is a problem in and of itself. It is a problem when you try and shag some chick in the bar that you just met and it goes wrong, whatever "going wrong may mean". If this type of behavior and charges being leveled was a common occurrence with other high profile football players then I'd say, "no big deal". It seems Ben struggles with people skills and women.

Pappy

The only difference I see between our viewpoints is that you thought he must have done "something" to irk this women and should have been smarter about this kind of thing before we knew he'd even actually touched her.

If you have no problem with him going to the bar, then we don't disagree on much. It seems we only disagree on at what point we had a problem with his behavior. I didn't think (because of a lack of evidence/facts) that he had done anything worth being upset about until he came out and said that they were getting freaky in a bathroom.

Dunno. I typically don't rush to assumptions, but try to wait for enough information to make an informed decision. I guess I'm not really sure what we're debating anymore if anything lol.

I've been out on the town with some fairly high profile (nothing at the level of Ben, more like an offensive lineman) athletes at one time or another and here's how we had a good time and they got laid. We'd go out bar hopping or party hopping, etc, they would meet fans at every stop, if any particular young lady seemed willing she was given a phone number and a time to contact him and an explanation that it really isn't a good idea to be seen here for her or him.

If she contacted him, they screwed their brains out in the privacy of his apartment, house or hotel and she left, no harm, no foul. My biggest problem with Ben's night out was he wasn't sure why he was out. If he was out for a piece of @ss, fine, do it discreetly. If he was out with the guys, well, then he should have just had a good time with the guys and then went home (feel free to make the booty call once you're home).

He just seems to enjoy taking unnecessary risks, IMO.

Pappy

[eniparadoxgma]

Where there's smoke there's fire may be a bad cliche to use in this instance. All I'm saying is he has now been accused twice of the same crime, guilty or not. I am one of those folks that don't believe every woman out there is a gold digger. Now that two women have accused I have to believe that although Idon't believe he's guilty, he does something that doesn't sit well with women, where there's smoke there's fire, so to speak.

I never said going out to celebrate your birthday is a problem in and of itself. It is a problem when you try and shag some chick in the bar that you just met and it goes wrong, whatever "going wrong may mean". If this type of behavior and charges being leveled was a common occurrence with other high profile football players then I'd say, "no big deal". It seems Ben struggles with people skills and women.

Pappy

The only difference I see between our viewpoints is that you thought he must have done "something" to irk this women and should have been smarter about this kind of thing before we knew he'd even actually touched her.

If you have no problem with him going to the bar, then we don't disagree on much. It seems we only disagree on at what point we had a problem with his behavior. I didn't think (because of a lack of evidence/facts) that he had done anything worth being upset about until he came out and said that they were getting freaky in a bathroom.

Dunno. I typically don't rush to assumptions, but try to wait for enough information to make an informed decision. I guess I'm not really sure what we're debating anymore if anything lol.

I've been out on the town with some fairly high profile (nothing at the level of Ben, more like an offensive lineman) athletes at one time or another and here's how we had a good time and they got laid. We'd go out bar hopping or party hopping, etc, they would meet fans at every stop, if any particular young lady seemed willing she was given a phone number and a time to contact him and an explanation that it really isn't a good idea to be seen here for her or him.

If she contacted him, they screwed their brains out in the privacy of his apartment, house or hotel and she left, no harm, no foul. My biggest problem with Ben's night out was he wasn't sure why he was out. If he was out for a piece of @ss, fine, do it discreetly. If he was out with the guys, well, then he should have just had a good time with the guys and then went home (feel free to make the booty call once you're home).

He just seems to enjoy taking unnecessary risks, IMO.

Pappy

I agree that it seems like he gets his freak on in some decidedly risky ways it would seem. However, originally I had no idea that he'd even done anything with the accuser (no one other than the two in question did). Yet, many people were already stating he'd taken unnecessary risks. My whole point is that being accused of something doesn't equal any kind of actual guilt...

I'm not sure what you mean by him not knowing why he went out. I'm assuming he knew why he went out, whether it was to celebrate his birthday, make an appearance, or to get some dome...but maybe he just went out and decided on the fly that he would try to get a little sumthin' sumthin' while he was out? Hell if I know.

I do think I understand your point though. Being a celebrity with a civil case like he has hanging over his head he should definitely find more discreet ways to hook up with girls. I

Bah, I feel like a broken record. What do we disagree about, Pap? :tt2 :tt2 :tt2

[papillon]

Where there's smoke there's fire may be a bad cliche to use in this instance. All I'm saying is he has now been accused twice of the same crime, guilty or not. I am one of those folks that don't believe every woman out there is a gold digger. Now that two women have accused I have to believe that although Idon't believe he's guilty, he does something that doesn't sit well with women, where there's smoke there's fire, so to speak.

I never said going out to celebrate your birthday is a problem in and of itself. It is a problem when you try and shag some chick in the bar that you just met and it goes wrong, whatever "going wrong may mean". If this type of behavior and charges being leveled was a common occurrence with other high profile football players then I'd say, "no big deal". It seems Ben struggles with people skills and women.

Pappy

The only difference I see between our viewpoints is that you thought he must have done "something" to irk this women and should have been smarter about this kind of thing before we knew he'd even actually touched her.

If you have no problem with him going to the bar, then we don't disagree on much. It seems we only disagree on at what point we had a problem with his behavior. I didn't think (because of a lack of evidence/facts) that he had done anything worth being upset about until he came out and said that they were getting freaky in a bathroom.

Dunno. I typically don't rush to assumptions, but try to wait for enough information to make an informed decision. I guess I'm not really sure what we're debating anymore if anything lol.

I've been out on the town with some fairly high profile (nothing at the level of Ben, more like an offensive lineman) athletes at one time or another and here's how we had a good time and they got laid. We'd go out bar hopping or party hopping, etc, they would meet fans at every stop, if any particular young lady seemed willing she was given a phone number and a time to contact him and an explanation that it really isn't a good idea to be seen here for her or him.

If she contacted him, they screwed their brains out in the privacy of his apartment, house or hotel and she left, no harm, no foul. My biggest problem with Ben's night out was he wasn't sure why he was out. If he was out for a piece of @ss, fine, do it discreetly. If he was out with the guys, well, then he should have just had a good time with the guys and then went home (feel free to make the booty call once you're home).

He just seems to enjoy taking unnecessary risks, IMO.

Pappy

I agree that it seems like he gets his freak on in some decidedly risky ways it would seem. However, originally I had no idea that he'd even done anything with the accuser (no one other than the two in question did). Yet, many people were already stating he'd taken unnecessary risks. My whole point is that being accused of something doesn't equal any kind of actual guilt...

I'm not sure what you mean by him not knowing why he went out. I'm assuming he knew why he went out, whether it was to celebrate his birthday, make an appearance, or to get some dome...but maybe he just went out and decided on the fly that he would try to get a little sumthin' sumthin' while he was out? Hell if I know.

I do think I understand your point though. Being a celebrity with a civil case like he has hanging over his head he should definitely find more discreet ways to hook up with girls. I

Bah, I feel like a broken record. What do we disagree about, Pap? :tt2 :tt2 :tt2

Probably not enough to continue down this path at this time; however, I reserve the right to recall the witness to the stand at a later date and time. :tt2

Pappy