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Dee Dub
03-05-2010, 07:03 PM
There are photos of Ben on TMZ.com allegedly from last night that show Ben wearing a shirt that has the Devil on it? Why would you ever do something like that? Whether you believe in God or not, to give respect like that to a symbol that represents evil seems very strange to me. A little troublesome. I am not pointing a finger at Ben, and we all have done things that don’t always make sense, but what is he trying to accomplish by this?

Is he giving homage to the adversary? Is he trying to be funny saying “The Devil goes down to Georgia”? I don’t get it. I personally believe that if you are a leader of men, which he is (albeit on a football field), you should be a little more mature than that.

And as a believer in God myself, I find wearing a shirt that represents evil or promoting the Devil, is offensive.

stlrz d
03-05-2010, 07:09 PM
http://www.blogcdn.com/www.tmz.com/media/2010/03/0305_ben_groupclub_ex_tmz_01.jpg

Oh the horror!

Dee Dub
03-05-2010, 07:21 PM
Oh the horror!

I don’t find any horror in it…and it sure doesn’t scare me. I just think it is disrespectful and very immature.

JAR
03-05-2010, 07:22 PM
[quote="stlrz d":190w2bpt]
Oh the horror!

I don’t find any horror in it…and it sure doesn’t scare me. I just think it is disrespectful and very immature.[/quote:190w2bpt]

Jeesus, it's only a shirt!

stlrz d
03-05-2010, 07:22 PM
[quote="stlrz d":31qxo4ji]
Oh the horror!

I don’t find any horror in it…and it sure doesn’t scare me. I just think it is disrespectful and very immature.[/quote:31qxo4ji]

You're entitled to your opinion.

Mine is BFD.

So I guess we cancel one another out. ;)

snarky
03-05-2010, 07:23 PM
[quote="stlrz d":24n07q6i]
Oh the horror!

I don’t find any horror in it…and it sure doesn’t scare me. I just think it is disrespectful and very immature.[/quote:24n07q6i]

Disrespectful to what? Your personal belief system?

The Man of Steel
03-05-2010, 07:24 PM
I'm more offended by Ben's mullet than anything else.

snarky
03-05-2010, 07:24 PM
I'm glad this guy isn't a hockey fan living in Jersey.

NJ-STEELER
03-05-2010, 07:26 PM
I'm glad this guy isn't a hockey fan living in Jersey.


:)

The Man of Steel
03-05-2010, 07:27 PM
I'm glad this guy isn't a hockey fan living in Jersey.

http://i386.photobucket.com/albums/oo302/TheRockPics/800px-Seinfeld_Ep_109_The_Face_Pain.png

stlrz d
03-05-2010, 07:29 PM
I'm glad this guy isn't a hockey fan living in Jersey.

[youtube:2lxb36dy]<object width="560" height="340"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Fowd29dOyh0&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Fowd29dOyh0&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="560" height="340"></embed></object>[/youtube:2lxb36dy]

Or NC

http://images.footballfanatics.com/productImages/_156000/DS_156121_xl.jpg

Dee Dub
03-05-2010, 07:31 PM
[quote="stlrz d":yp3oydfr]
Oh the horror!

I don’t find any horror in it…and it sure doesn’t scare me. I just think it is disrespectful and very immature.

Jeesus, it's only a shirt![/quote:yp3oydfr]

If someone wore a shirt with a Klan member on it…would it just be a shirt? Or how about having a shirt with Hitler on it? For Christians like myself that is offensive. And it shows immaturity.

Dee Dub
03-05-2010, 07:32 PM
[quote="stlrz d":30oarcae]
Oh the horror!

I don’t find any horror in it…and it sure doesn’t scare me. I just think it is disrespectful and very immature.

Disrespectful to what? Your personal belief system?[/quote:30oarcae]

If someone wore a shirt with a Klan member on it…would it just be a shirt? Or how about having a shirt with Hitler on it? For Christians like myself that is offensive. And it shows immaturity.

snarky
03-05-2010, 07:35 PM
[quote="Dee Dub":275w7x4w][quote="stlrz d":275w7x4w]
Oh the horror!

I don’t find any horror in it…and it sure doesn’t scare me. I just think it is disrespectful and very immature.

Disrespectful to what? Your personal belief system?[/quote:275w7x4w]

If someone wore a shirt with a Klan member on it…would it just be a shirt? Or how about having a shirt with Hitler on it? For Christians like myself that is offensive. And it shows immaturity.[/quote:275w7x4w]

Unlike the Devil, Klan members and Hitler exist/existed.

Wearing a shirt with a picture of the devil on it is no different than wearing a shirt with the Burgermeister on it. Both are fictional characters.

JTP53609
03-05-2010, 07:38 PM
i thought the shirt was the joker from batman and robin

JAR
03-05-2010, 07:41 PM
[quote="Dee Dub":1t83ecln][quote="stlrz d":1t83ecln]
Oh the horror!

I don’t find any horror in it…and it sure doesn’t scare me. I just think it is disrespectful and very immature.

Jeesus, it's only a shirt![/quote:1t83ecln]

If someone wore a shirt with a Klan member on it…would it just be a shirt? Or how about having a shirt with Hitler on it? For Christians like myself that is offensive. And it shows immaturity.[/quote:1t83ecln]

Are there any sports teams, major products or things you see each day referencing the KKK or Hitler?

The San Antonio Hitlers
The Dirt KKK Vacuum Cleaner

NJ-STEELER
03-05-2010, 07:46 PM
i thought the shirt was the joker from batman and robin

i thought it was angus young

D Rock
03-05-2010, 07:48 PM
I find it offensive when people are offended based on their religion, and they try to make a point of it to let other people know how correct their beliefs are.

hawaiiansteel
03-05-2010, 07:50 PM
i thought the shirt was the joker from batman and robin

i thought it was angus young



i thought it was my ex-wife :lol:

The Man of Steel
03-05-2010, 07:51 PM
Maybe Ben wore that shirt so all of the ladies would know that he is a man of wealth and taste.

Dee Dub
03-05-2010, 07:52 PM
[quote="Dee Dub":2h6bpvzp][quote="stlrz d":2h6bpvzp]
Oh the horror!

I don’t find any horror in it…and it sure doesn’t scare me. I just think it is disrespectful and very immature.

Disrespectful to what? Your personal belief system?

If someone wore a shirt with a Klan member on it…would it just be a shirt? Or how about having a shirt with Hitler on it? For Christians like myself that is offensive. And it shows immaturity.[/quote:2h6bpvzp]

Unlike the Devil, Klan members and Hitler exist/existed.

Wearing a shirt with a picture of the devil on it is no different than wearing a shirt with the Burgermeister on it. Both are fictional characters.[/quote:2h6bpvzp]

Well I won’t get into whether your beliefs are wrong (I would respect that), but my Christianity tells me in the word of God (the Bible), that he (Satan), isn’t a fictional character. And again I find a shirt that has him on it is offensive.

NJ-STEELER
03-05-2010, 07:52 PM
i thought the shirt was the joker from batman and robin

i thought it was angus young



i thought it was my ex-wife :lol:

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Dee Dub
03-05-2010, 07:54 PM
I find it offensive when people are offended based on their religion, and they try to make a point of it to let other people know how correct their beliefs are.

I never said what others believe outside of what I believe is wrong. I would never do that. It isnt my place. But I do find a shirt that represents evil and the single biggest attack/assault on/against what I believe in to be offensive.

stlrz d
03-05-2010, 07:54 PM
Lots of great points being made in this thread...and some very funny lines too! "man of wealth and taste"..."my ex wife"...that's gold Jerry!

Dee...I think you're fightin' a losing battle here. It's just an effing shirt.

stlrz d
03-05-2010, 07:56 PM
[quote="D Rock":36k1q6d5]I find it offensive when people are offended based on their religion, and they try to make a point of it to let other people know how correct their beliefs are.

I never said what others believe outside of what I believe is wrong. I would never do that. It isnt my place. But I do find a shirt that represents evil and the single biggest attack/assault on/against what I believe in to be offensive.[/quote:36k1q6d5]

What if he wore this?

http://rlv.zcache.com/i_love_flying_spaghetti_monster_t_shirt-p235717985895474286su5z_400.jpg

:lol:

Dee Dub
03-05-2010, 07:59 PM
Lots of great points being made in this thread...and some very funny lines too! "man of wealth and taste"..."my ex wife"...that's gold Jerry!

Dee...I think you're fightin' a losing battle here. It's just an effing shirt.

To me a shirt that has the symbol of evil is not just a shirt. Sorry.

..and just so that you know...this is a battle that people like myself believe was won a long time ago on the cross. …And that act….should one confess, repent, and be baptized in water….will always result in victory. :wink:

NJ-STEELER
03-05-2010, 08:02 PM
[quote="stlrz d":3iibs7an]Lots of great points being made in this thread...and some very funny lines too! "man of wealth and taste"..."my ex wife"...that's gold Jerry!

Dee...I think you're fightin' a losing battle here. It's just an effing shirt.

To me a shirt that has the symbol of evil is not just a shirt. Sorry.

..and just so that you know...this is a battle that people like myself believe was won a long time ago on the cross. …And that act….should one confess, repent, and be baptized in water….will always result in victory. :wink:[/quote:3iibs7an]

what about skulls, knives with blood dripping from them on shirts

stlrz d
03-05-2010, 08:03 PM
[quote="stlrz d":ynv4zvm8]Lots of great points being made in this thread...and some very funny lines too! "man of wealth and taste"..."my ex wife"...that's gold Jerry!

Dee...I think you're fightin' a losing battle here. It's just an effing shirt.

To me a shirt that has the symbol of evil is not just a shirt. Sorry.

..and just so that you know...this is a battle that people like myself believe was won a long time ago on the cross. …And that act….should one confess, repent, and be baptized in water….will always result in victory. :wink:[/quote:ynv4zvm8]

That's fine. I believe that's all a bunch of fairy tales that have nothing on Grimm. 900 year old people? People turned into pillars of salt? :lol:

And I also believe it's just an effing shirt and it's not up to anyone but the wearer to decide whether or not it's appropriate.

NJ-STEELER
03-05-2010, 08:05 PM
its probably inappropiate if he wore it to mass.


knowing he would go on to his rape rampage, it seems appropiate

SteelBucks
03-05-2010, 08:05 PM
I'm glad this guy isn't a hockey fan living in Jersey.

[youtube:bh7rhhe5]<object width="560" height="340"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Fowd29dOyh0&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Fowd29dOyh0&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="560" height="340"></embed></object>[/youtube:bh7rhhe5]

Or NC

http://images.footballfanatics.com/productImages/_156000/DS_156121_xl.jpg

I was seriously searching for the same clip. Good stuff! :lol:

birtikidis
03-05-2010, 08:13 PM
See Ben should be more like Peyton. No more rape and pillage in the name of satan. why can't you be more like Peyton?

birtikidis
03-05-2010, 08:14 PM
it just occurred to me. you would never see manning in a devil shirt. but you would see him in knee pads and elbow pads while licking the white creamy center out of a hard... dark... oreo. what a pillow biter.

Flasteel
03-05-2010, 08:32 PM
it just occurred to me. you would never see manning in a devil shirt. but you would see him in knee pads and elbow pads while licking the white creamy center out of a hard... dark... oreo. what a pillow biter.

Dude.

WTF.

I have told my Peyton Manning story on here before, but for those who don't remember or were not around...
Manning was busted by the Sarasota PD for getting a hummer from some skank behind a restaurant back in the spring of 2004. I saw it go down with my own two eyes. He was caught in the act and detained for about 45 minutes before being let go.

Manning is indeed a dirty dog himself.

Shawn
03-05-2010, 08:53 PM
D...I understand where you are coming from...I really do. But, here is my take on this kind of stuff. I am a believer. I'm not a churchy guy but grew up in the church. I don't preach to anyone...or even talk about my belief system unless someone asks. I am not offended by shirts like this...but don't wear them myself. I think many Christians are a bit sensitive. What if Ben worships the devil? If an atheist wore some sort or atheist belief shirt? Offensive? Well what if a Christian wears a Got Jesus shirt? A WWJD shirt? Should an atheist be offended? I mean do you think they might be offended by a belief system that states that non believers will burn in hell for eternity? I would imagine so.

My views on this kind of stuff have changed significantly in the last several years. I'm a live and let live kind of guy. If people want to know what I believe about the spiritual nature of humanity I will happily share my belief system. I don't get worked up if they don't believe like I do. I will listen to them and respect their belief system. I do my best not to judge. I try to give everyone the credit of the doubt. And I respect peoples wishes to be individuals and to wear whatever it is they want to wear.

birtikidis
03-05-2010, 09:02 PM
it just occurred to me. you would never see manning in a devil shirt. but you would see him in knee pads and elbow pads while licking the white creamy center out of a hard... dark... oreo. what a pillow biter.

Dude.

WTF.

I have told my Peyton Manning story on here before, but for those who don't remember or were not around...
Manning was busted by the Sarasota PD for getting a hummer from some skank behind a restaurant back in the spring of 2004. I saw it go down with my own two eyes. He was caught in the act and detained for about 45 minutes before being let go.

Manning is indeed a dirty dog himself.

haha i never heard that story! lol. hey at least he wasn't giving.

Lebsteel
03-05-2010, 09:06 PM
Well I won’t get into whether your beliefs are wrong (I would respect that), but my Christianity tells me in the word of God (the Bible), that he (Satan), isn’t a fictional character. And again I find a shirt that has him on it is offensive.[/quote]


Dee Dub, I agree with you on this one. I am a Christian as well, but I am not as much offended, as I am disappointed in his taste. He doesn't have to share my religious faith, but it makes me wonder what kind of statement he is trying to make? Is he trying to make a statement or is he oblivious to it all?

snarky
03-05-2010, 09:13 PM
D...I understand where you are coming from...I really do. But, here is my take on this kind of stuff. I am a believer. I'm not a churchy guy but grew up in the church. I don't preach to anyone...or even talk about my belief system unless someone asks. I am not offended by shirts like this...but don't wear them myself. I think many Christians are a bit sensitive. What if Ben worships the devil? If an atheist wore some sort or atheist belief shirt? Offensive? Well what if a Christian wears a Got Jesus shirt? A WWJD shirt? Should an atheist be offended? I mean do you think they might be offended by a belief system that states that non believers will burn in hell for eternity? I would imagine so.

My views on this kind of stuff have changed significantly in the last several years. I'm a live and let live kind of guy. If people want to know what I believe about the spiritual nature of humanity I will happily share my belief system. I don't get worked up if they don't believe like I do. I will listen to them and respect their belief system. I do my best not to judge. I try to give everyone the credit of the doubt. And I respect peoples wishes to be individuals and to wear whatever it is they want to wear.

Well said and as an atheist I can tell you that I am not the least bit offended by somebody else thinking I am going to spend eternity burning in some imaginary place of punishment. It doesn't affect me in the least.

And I'm not offended by Got Jesus shirts etc. What does offend me are the following:

1. Being told that I am a bad person or (in some cases) a fool for not believing in something that has never been objectively substantiated.
2. People who wish to base the laws that we all share on their personal beliefs rather than on a sense of shared community.
3. People who use their beliefs as a proxy for bigotry (see Westboro Baptist Church).

Little story: a few years ago I had my three year old nephew in my car. It was summer and I had the windows down. In the parking lot of the swimming club I started up a conversation (while in the car) with a woman who I thought was a member of the club (turns out she was trespassing). Anyway, she asked me if I was a Christian and when I said no she effing lost it on me and told me that I shouldn't be around my nephew anymore etc. Now THAT I find offensive. I've spent a lot of time with that kid and on his emotional and intellectual development and have given him a lot of love. And for her to suggest right in front of him that I am a bad person or to suggest that I would somehow harm him was waaaaay over the line.

But the bottom line is that some people feel they have the right to go through life without being offended and that if they are offended they have the right to lash out at those who offend them.

Flasteel
03-05-2010, 09:25 PM
http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll300/LucidFlight_album/God-South-Park.jpg

Lebsteel
03-05-2010, 09:26 PM
D...I understand where you are coming from...I really do. But, here is my take on this kind of stuff. I am a believer. I'm not a churchy guy but grew up in the church. I don't preach to anyone...or even talk about my belief system unless someone asks. I am not offended by shirts like this...but don't wear them myself. I think many Christians are a bit sensitive. What if Ben worships the devil? If an atheist wore some sort or atheist belief shirt? Offensive? Well what if a Christian wears a Got Jesus shirt? A WWJD shirt? Should an atheist be offended? I mean do you think they might be offended by a belief system that states that non believers will burn in hell for eternity? I would imagine so.

My views on this kind of stuff have changed significantly in the last several years. I'm a live and let live kind of guy. If people want to know what I believe about the spiritual nature of humanity I will happily share my belief system. I don't get worked up if they don't believe like I do. I will listen to them and respect their belief system. I do my best not to judge. I try to give everyone the credit of the doubt. And I respect peoples wishes to be individuals and to wear whatever it is they want to wear.
Shawn, I hear what you are saying and as a Christian, it is a fine line that must be walked. How do you share your faith without coming across as being judgemental and critical of another person. I believe the best way to share your faith is by being a living example. We all fall down and often fall short of what we are supposed to be. I truly feel sorry for some of the posters and the comments they are making, but I too will not judge them or even judge Ben. I just think it is not a very smart move on his part to put himself in that type of situation.

Shawn
03-05-2010, 09:40 PM
D...I understand where you are coming from...I really do. But, here is my take on this kind of stuff. I am a believer. I'm not a churchy guy but grew up in the church. I don't preach to anyone...or even talk about my belief system unless someone asks. I am not offended by shirts like this...but don't wear them myself. I think many Christians are a bit sensitive. What if Ben worships the devil? If an atheist wore some sort or atheist belief shirt? Offensive? Well what if a Christian wears a Got Jesus shirt? A WWJD shirt? Should an atheist be offended? I mean do you think they might be offended by a belief system that states that non believers will burn in hell for eternity? I would imagine so.

My views on this kind of stuff have changed significantly in the last several years. I'm a live and let live kind of guy. If people want to know what I believe about the spiritual nature of humanity I will happily share my belief system. I don't get worked up if they don't believe like I do. I will listen to them and respect their belief system. I do my best not to judge. I try to give everyone the credit of the doubt. And I respect peoples wishes to be individuals and to wear whatever it is they want to wear.

Well said and as an atheist I can tell you that I am not the least bit offended by somebody else thinking I am going to spend eternity burning in some imaginary place of punishment. It doesn't affect me in the least.

And I'm not offended by Got Jesus shirts etc. What does offend me are the following:

1. Being told that I am a bad person or (in some cases) a fool for not believing in something that has never been objectively substantiated.
2. People who wish to base the laws that we all share on their personal beliefs rather than on a sense of shared community.
3. People who use their beliefs as a proxy for bigotry (see Westboro Baptist Church).

Little story: a few years ago I had my three year old nephew in my car. It was summer and I had the windows down. In the parking lot of the swimming club I started up a conversation (while in the car) with a woman who I thought was a member of the club (turns out she was trespassing). Anyway, she asked me if I was a Christian and when I said no she effing lost it on me and told me that I shouldn't be around my nephew anymore etc. Now THAT I find offensive. I've spent a lot of time with that kid and on his emotional and intellectual development and have given him a lot of love. And for her to suggest right in front of him that I am a bad person or to suggest that I would somehow harm him was waaaaay over the line.

But the bottom line is that some people feel they have the right to go through life without being offended and that if they are offended they have the right to lash out at those who offend them.

As a believer I am offended by militant Christianity. I am offended by those that want to pass judgement. I am offended by those that make Christianity a business and the church a Wal-Mart for "spiritual blessings". Before I get off topic, there is nothing Christian about what that woman did.

The God I serve is someone who told those accusing the woman of adultery, "let he without sin cast the first stone." That's what I live by. I am very imperfect. I have my vices, issues, and lapses of judgement that can compete with just about anyone. I have no room to judge anyone...and I'm certainly not arrogant enough to approach someone and let them have it for their belief system.

SanAntonioSteelerFan
03-05-2010, 09:41 PM
[quote="Dee Dub":u866vflu][quote="stlrz d":u866vflu]
Oh the horror!

I don’t find any horror in it…and it sure doesn’t scare me. I just think it is disrespectful and very immature.

Jeesus, it's only a shirt!

If someone wore a shirt with a Klan member on it…would it just be a shirt? Or how about having a shirt with Hitler on it? For Christians like myself that is offensive. And it shows immaturity.[/quote:u866vflu]

Are there any sports teams, major products or things you see each day referencing the KKK or Hitler?

The San Antonio Hitlers

The Dirt KKK Vacuum Cleaner[/quote:u866vflu]

Hey - watch it, now! :twisted:

Shawn
03-05-2010, 09:44 PM
D...I understand where you are coming from...I really do. But, here is my take on this kind of stuff. I am a believer. I'm not a churchy guy but grew up in the church. I don't preach to anyone...or even talk about my belief system unless someone asks. I am not offended by shirts like this...but don't wear them myself. I think many Christians are a bit sensitive. What if Ben worships the devil? If an atheist wore some sort or atheist belief shirt? Offensive? Well what if a Christian wears a Got Jesus shirt? A WWJD shirt? Should an atheist be offended? I mean do you think they might be offended by a belief system that states that non believers will burn in hell for eternity? I would imagine so.

My views on this kind of stuff have changed significantly in the last several years. I'm a live and let live kind of guy. If people want to know what I believe about the spiritual nature of humanity I will happily share my belief system. I don't get worked up if they don't believe like I do. I will listen to them and respect their belief system. I do my best not to judge. I try to give everyone the credit of the doubt. And I respect peoples wishes to be individuals and to wear whatever it is they want to wear.
Shawn, I hear what you are saying and as a Christian, it is a fine line that must be walked. How do you share your faith without coming across as being judgemental and critical of another person. I believe the best way to share your faith is by being a living example. We all fall down and often fall short of what we are supposed to be. I truly feel sorry for some of the posters and the comments they are making, but I too will not judge them or even judge Ben. I just think it is not a very smart move on his part to put himself in that type of situation.

That's right where I am. I believe if you walk the talk there is no better way to share your faith. Part of our faith involves sharing it with others but I don't believe it means beating them with it, judging them with it or using it to defend bigotry.

stlrz d
03-05-2010, 09:51 PM
Dee Dub, I agree with you on this one. I am a Christian as well, but I am not as much offended, as I am disappointed in his taste. He doesn't have to share my religious faith, but it makes me wonder what kind of statement he is trying to make? Is he trying to make a statement or is he oblivious to it all?

Maybe he just liked the shirt?

SanAntonioSteelerFan
03-05-2010, 09:55 PM
http://www.blogcdn.com/www.tmz.com/media/2010/03/0305_ben_groupclub_ex_tmz_01.jpg

Oh the horror!

Is Ben getting chubby?

BradshawsHairdresser
03-05-2010, 09:56 PM
I hope we don't find out that Ben was wearing that shirt so that he can give the excuse "The devil made me do it."

stlrz d
03-05-2010, 09:58 PM
I hope we don't find out that Ben was wearing that shirt so that he can give the excuse "The devil made me do it."

Or

http://www.dragqueendiaries.com/images/Flip%20Wilson%20-%20The%20Devil%20Made%20Me%20Buy%20This%20Dress-1.jpg

Except substitute shirt for dress. :lol:

Lebsteel
03-05-2010, 10:10 PM
Dee Dub, I agree with you on this one. I am a Christian as well, but I am not as much offended, as I am disappointed in his taste. He doesn't have to share my religious faith, but it makes me wonder what kind of statement he is trying to make? Is he trying to make a statement or is he oblivious to it all?

Maybe he just liked the shirt?
Nah, it couldn't be that. It's probably the Flip theory. Gotta be it.

plainnasty
03-05-2010, 10:37 PM
There are photos of Ben on TMZ.com allegedly from last night that show Ben wearing a shirt that has the Devil on it? Why would you ever do something like that? Whether you believe in God or not, to give respect like that to a symbol that represents evil seems very strange to me. A little troublesome. I am not pointing a finger at Ben, and we all have done things that don’t always make sense, but what is he trying to accomplish by this?

Is he giving homage to the adversary? Is he trying to be funny saying “The Devil goes down to Georgia”? I don’t get it. I personally believe that if you are a leader of me, which he is (albeit on a football field), you should be a little more mature than that.

And as a believer in God myself, I find wearing a shirt that represents evil or promoting the Devil, is offensive.

Ben's accused of sexually assaulting someone (for the 2nd time) and you're offended by the shirt that he was wearing.

Ozey74
03-05-2010, 10:41 PM
So is the NJ Devils NHL team promoting Satan? I'm a Christian & didn't find his shirt offensive at all. Ben doesn't strike me as the type to hate Christanity and love devil worshiping.

I don't think he intended any harm. But I will respect anybody's right to be offended by it. To each there own.

stlrz d
03-05-2010, 10:46 PM
In the interest of full disclosure, I put this logo on the insert of every CD I make for someone:

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l50/ropewalk_2006/sinnedlogo2.jpg

It's my name spelled backwards.

Or maybe I just worship the devil?

:lol:

SanAntonioSteelerFan
03-05-2010, 10:54 PM
In the interest of full disclosure, I put this logo on the insert of every CD I make for someone:

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l50/ropewalk_2006/sinnedlogo2.jpg

It's my name spelled backwards.

Or maybe I just worship the devil?

:lol:

Sdrocer ... Czech?

stlrz d
03-05-2010, 11:02 PM
In the interest of full disclosure, I put this logo on the insert of every CD I make for someone:

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l50/ropewalk_2006/sinnedlogo2.jpg

It's my name spelled backwards.

Or maybe I just worship the devil?

:lol:

Sdrocer ... Czech?

Kazakhstanian actually.

It's an old family name.

:lol:

fezziwig
03-05-2010, 11:03 PM
Look at this, Ben even has us turned against each other ! I think that's a line from a Clint Eastwood movie. That is what I was going for anyway.

Oh yeah, ah hem now, I never liked the kind of clothing or whatever that shows the devil or gives the devil anytype of status. Crap like that shirt may soften the real views of the Devil to the young kids.

The real sin here is, Ben got some major bucks and he wears that stupid shirt. See, the devil does make you do it sometimes.

Still not as bad as my friends friend wearing a DAMM shirt to his hearing for drunken driving. It was this buttplugs second offense and he wears a DAMM shirt because he said it was the only clean shirt he had. The judge let him know the shirt didn't help his defense at all.
I hope Ben doesn't wear a shirt with a playboy bunny or devil on it when he visits the judge.

Dee Dub
03-05-2010, 11:39 PM
D...I understand where you are coming from...I really do. But, here is my take on this kind of stuff. I am a believer. I'm not a churchy guy but grew up in the church. I don't preach to anyone...or even talk about my belief system unless someone asks. I am not offended by shirts like this...but don't wear them myself. I think many Christians are a bit sensitive. What if Ben worships the devil? If an atheist wore some sort or atheist belief shirt? Offensive? Well what if a Christian wears a Got Jesus shirt? A WWJD shirt? Should an atheist be offended? I mean do you think they might be offended by a belief system that states that non believers will burn in hell for eternity? I would imagine so.

My views on this kind of stuff have changed significantly in the last several years. I'm a live and let live kind of guy. If people want to know what I believe about the spiritual nature of humanity I will happily share my belief system. I don't get worked up if they don't believe like I do. I will listen to them and respect their belief system. I do my best not to judge. I try to give everyone the credit of the doubt. And I respect peoples wishes to be individuals and to wear whatever it is they want to wear.


This isnt about whether I want people to believe what I believe. I see Satan as evil and the basis for everything that is bad. I know that he is working on every soul he can get to to create a separation from all that is good. There was a young lady (17 year old girl actually), who was recently murdered and raped in the San Diego-Rancho Bernardo area. Her body was just found a few days ago. The man who did this had a soul that was evil...that was every bit bad. To walk around with a shirt that has the Poster Child for Evil to me is offensive.

Dee Dub
03-05-2010, 11:48 PM
Well said and as an atheist I can tell you that I am not the least bit offended by somebody else thinking I am going to spend eternity burning in some imaginary place of punishment. It doesn't affect me in the least.

And I'm not offended by Got Jesus shirts etc. What does offend me are the following:

1. Being told that I am a bad person or (in some cases) a fool for not believing in something that has never been objectively substantiated.
2. People who wish to base the laws that we all share on their personal beliefs rather than on a sense of shared community.
3. People who use their beliefs as a proxy for bigotry (see Westboro Baptist Church).

Little story: a few years ago I had my three year old nephew in my car. It was summer and I had the windows down. In the parking lot of the swimming club I started up a conversation (while in the car) with a woman who I thought was a member of the club (turns out she was trespassing). Anyway, she asked me if I was a Christian and when I said no she effing lost it on me and told me that I shouldn't be around my nephew anymore etc. Now THAT I find offensive. I've spent a lot of time with that kid and on his emotional and intellectual development and have given him a lot of love. And for her to suggest right in front of him that I am a bad person or to suggest that I would somehow harm him was waaaaay over the line.

But the bottom line is that some people feel they have the right to go through life without being offended and that if they are offended they have the right to lash out at those who offend them.

Snarky there are a lot of people who say they are Christians but then turn around and judge others, criticize them, and show bigotry and disdane for others. That is not a Christian. In fact that is everything the opposite of what Christ stood for. I am sorry that someone has treated you (and your Newphew), like this and then associated themselves with Christianity. That offends me too.

These so-called followers of Christ have forgotten the main purpose Jesus came for.........

......sinners. He did not come for the righteous.

SanAntonioSteelerFan
03-05-2010, 11:50 PM
DD -

I'm kind of interested in the depth of your feelings on this.

Do you have any similar thoughts about the two smiley icons in this forum that kind of look like devils, or to their use? What about the NJ Devils? Or Underwood Deviled Ham, which I think has a picture of a devil? Would you advocate not using the smiley's, organizing boycotts of that specific hockey team, and not buying that brand/type of food?

Thanks for clarifying. And truly, no offense intended, I'm just wondering about this. If you don't want to answer, no problem.

Dee Dub
03-06-2010, 12:00 AM
I personally am at a time in my life, a life that I had to turn completely around, where I dont want to associate with anything that goes against God. I was a lost soul for a long time and I know for a fact that when I was not plugged into God my life was horrible. And now that I have started putting him first above all my life has never been better.

As for little icons that may simply only suggest a childlike behavior (lil devil), or being mischevious, I think that is a whole lot different than wearing a T-shirt with the image of satan on it.

SanAntonioSteelerFan
03-06-2010, 12:04 AM
I personally am at a time in my life, a life that I had to turn completely around, where I dont want to associate with anything that goes against God. I was a lost soul for a long time and I know for a fact that when I was not plugged into God my life was horrible. And now that I have started putting him first above all my life has never been better.

As for little icons that may simply only suggest a childlike behavior (lil devil), or being mischevious, I think that is a whole lot different than wearing a T-shirt with the image of satan on it.

I understand the sentiment, and thank you for your taking the time to explain.

hawaiiansteel
03-06-2010, 12:14 AM
I personally am at a time in my life, a life that I had to turn completely around, where I dont want to associate with anything that goes against God. I was a lost soul for a long time and I know for a fact that when I was not plugged into God my life was horrible. And now that I have started putting him first above all my life has never been better.

As for little icons that may simply only suggest a childlike behavior (lil devil), or being mischevious, I think that is a whole lot different than wearing a T-shirt with the image of satan on it.



there is a very good chance that Ben is not the deepest thinker in the world. he probably didn't think through what wearing a shirt with a picture of the devil could symbolize.

in Ben's mind, he may have just thought that wearing that shirt portrayed him as being a "lil devil or mischievious".

Shawn
03-06-2010, 12:16 AM
D...I understand where you are coming from...I really do. But, here is my take on this kind of stuff. I am a believer. I'm not a churchy guy but grew up in the church. I don't preach to anyone...or even talk about my belief system unless someone asks. I am not offended by shirts like this...but don't wear them myself. I think many Christians are a bit sensitive. What if Ben worships the devil? If an atheist wore some sort or atheist belief shirt? Offensive? Well what if a Christian wears a Got Jesus shirt? A WWJD shirt? Should an atheist be offended? I mean do you think they might be offended by a belief system that states that non believers will burn in hell for eternity? I would imagine so.

My views on this kind of stuff have changed significantly in the last several years. I'm a live and let live kind of guy. If people want to know what I believe about the spiritual nature of humanity I will happily share my belief system. I don't get worked up if they don't believe like I do. I will listen to them and respect their belief system. I do my best not to judge. I try to give everyone the credit of the doubt. And I respect peoples wishes to be individuals and to wear whatever it is they want to wear.


This isnt about whether I want people to believe what I believe. I see Satan as evil and the basis for everything that is bad. I know that he is working on every soul he can get to to create a separation from all that is good. There was a young lady (17 year old girl actually), who was recently murdered and raped in the San Diego-Rancho Bernardo area. Her body was just found a few days ago. The man who did this had a soul that was evil...that was every bit bad. To walk around with a shirt that has the Poster Child for Evil to me is offensive.

Honestly I don't have energy to be offended by everything many Christians are offended by. I think if many Christians focused more on loving thy neighbor and cleaning their own house they would have very little energy left over to get into a tizzy over a shirt.

stlrz d
03-06-2010, 12:22 AM
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Shawn
03-06-2010, 12:23 AM
I personally am at a time in my life, a life that I had to turn completely around, where I dont want to associate with anything that goes against God. I was a lost soul for a long time and I know for a fact that when I was not plugged into God my life was horrible. And now that I have started putting him first above all my life has never been better.

As for little icons that may simply only suggest a childlike behavior (lil devil), or being mischevious, I think that is a whole lot different than wearing a T-shirt with the image of satan on it.

I totally get that. I'm at a similar point in my life. But, I think there is a major difference between associating with evil and symbols of evil and judging others over some perceived moral infraction. Not everyone sees something like that...like you do. Instead of cleaning Ben's house...concentrate on cleaning your own.

skyhawk
03-06-2010, 12:27 AM
There are photos of Ben on TMZ.com allegedly from last night that show Ben wearing a shirt that has the Devil on it? Why would you ever do something like that? Whether you believe in God or not, to give respect like that to a symbol that represents evil seems very strange to me. A little troublesome. I am not pointing a finger at Ben, and we all have done things that don’t always make sense, but what is he trying to accomplish by this?

Is he giving homage to the adversary? Is he trying to be funny saying “The Devil goes down to Georgia”? I don’t get it. I personally believe that if you are a leader of me, which he is (albeit on a football field), you should be a little more mature than that.

And as a believer in God myself, I find wearing a shirt that represents evil or promoting the Devil, is offensive.

Ben's accused of sexually assaulting someone (for the 2nd time) and you're offended by the shirt that he was wearing.


Good point. You see, for many Christians, it's usually ALL ABOUT THEMSELVES.

Shawn
03-06-2010, 12:28 AM
I personally am at a time in my life, a life that I had to turn completely around, where I dont want to associate with anything that goes against God. I was a lost soul for a long time and I know for a fact that when I was not plugged into God my life was horrible. And now that I have started putting him first above all my life has never been better.

As for little icons that may simply only suggest a childlike behavior (lil devil), or being mischevious, I think that is a whole lot different than wearing a T-shirt with the image of satan on it.



there is a very good chance that Ben is not the deepest thinker in the world. he probably didn't think through what wearing a shirt with a picture of the devil could symbolize.

in Ben's mind, he may have just thought that wearing that shirt portrayed him as being a "lil devil or mischievious".

I would have to assume that's the case. Do people really believe he wore the shirt to offend or support evil? He probably just doesn't take this stuff as seriously as some.

stlrz d
03-06-2010, 12:30 AM
I'm tempted to make the image on Ben's shirt into an avatar. :lol:

Dee Dub
03-06-2010, 12:53 AM
D...I understand where you are coming from...I really do. But, here is my take on this kind of stuff. I am a believer. I'm not a churchy guy but grew up in the church. I don't preach to anyone...or even talk about my belief system unless someone asks. I am not offended by shirts like this...but don't wear them myself. I think many Christians are a bit sensitive. What if Ben worships the devil? If an atheist wore some sort or atheist belief shirt? Offensive? Well what if a Christian wears a Got Jesus shirt? A WWJD shirt? Should an atheist be offended? I mean do you think they might be offended by a belief system that states that non believers will burn in hell for eternity? I would imagine so.

My views on this kind of stuff have changed significantly in the last several years. I'm a live and let live kind of guy. If people want to know what I believe about the spiritual nature of humanity I will happily share my belief system. I don't get worked up if they don't believe like I do. I will listen to them and respect their belief system. I do my best not to judge. I try to give everyone the credit of the doubt. And I respect peoples wishes to be individuals and to wear whatever it is they want to wear.


This isnt about whether I want people to believe what I believe. I see Satan as evil and the basis for everything that is bad. I know that he is working on every soul he can get to to create a separation from all that is good. There was a young lady (17 year old girl actually), who was recently murdered and raped in the San Diego-Rancho Bernardo area. Her body was just found a few days ago. The man who did this had a soul that was evil...that was every bit bad. To walk around with a shirt that has the Poster Child for Evil to me is offensive.

Honestly I don't have energy to be offended by everything many Christians are offended by. I think if many Christians focused more on loving thy neighbor and cleaning their own house they would have very little energy left over to get into a tizzy over a shirt.


I guess you missed the part (my innitial post), where I said I am not pointing a finger at Ben and that we all do things that dont always make sense....but Shawn this isnt about judging others...or taking someone elses inventory. I simply find it offensive to see someone wearing Satan on a T-shirt. Walking around as if it is hip or cool to do so.

Dee Dub
03-06-2010, 12:56 AM
Good point. You see, for many Christians, it's usually ALL ABOUT THEMSELVES.

..sounds like you havent been around many true Christians. And those that claim to be and make everything about themselves....are far from what Christ has asked us to be.

SanAntonioSteelerFan
03-06-2010, 12:59 AM
Good point. You see, for many Christians, it's usually ALL ABOUT THEMSELVES.

..sounds like you havent been around many true Christians. And those that claim to be and make everything about themselves....are far from what Christ has asked us to be.

Here's something I've wondered about, and haven't come to grips with really. Do you have any thoughts on this, DD?

Christ says give it all away.

Capitalism says make as much as you can.

Can a Christian be a capitalist?

hawaiiansteel
03-06-2010, 01:33 AM
Good point. You see, for many Christians, it's usually ALL ABOUT THEMSELVES.

..sounds like you havent been around many true Christians. And those that claim to be and make everything about themselves....are far from what Christ has asked us to be.

Here's something I've wondered about, and haven't come to grips with really. Do you have any thoughts on this, DD?

Christ says give it all away.

Capitalism says make as much as you can.

Can a Christian be a capitalist?


I sure as hell hope so... :twisted:

skyhawk
03-06-2010, 01:35 AM
Good point. You see, for many Christians, it's usually ALL ABOUT THEMSELVES.

..sounds like you havent been around many true Christians. And those that claim to be and make everything about themselves....are far from what Christ has asked us to be.

What has Christ asked you to be?

And I am sure not all Christians are judgemental and selfish. But I say who cares what some stranger (Ben) wears to a bar?

When someone says "offensive" it is something they think it is directed at them. In this case it's obviously not.

Shawn
03-06-2010, 02:08 AM
Good point. You see, for many Christians, it's usually ALL ABOUT THEMSELVES.

..sounds like you havent been around many true Christians. And those that claim to be and make everything about themselves....are far from what Christ has asked us to be.

Here's something I've wondered about, and haven't come to grips with really. Do you have any thoughts on this, DD?

Christ says give it all away.

Capitalism says make as much as you can.

Can a Christian be a capitalist?

I don't think Christ asked for all people to give their wealth away. Actually, there are quite a few significant Biblical figures who were very wealthy (ie King David, the man after God's own heart). He specifically asked his disciples to give away their worldy possessions and follow him. He also asked the rich man to do the same...basically asking him to become a disciple. He wanted his disciples focused soley on spreading the gospel. For the rest of us it's basically about what is more important to you....God or money? Hence greed is one of the 7 deadly sins because money is your God. But, there are some who can have money but not be owned/ruled by it. Just like some can eat without being a glutton.

feltdizz
03-06-2010, 02:50 AM
Can a christian be a capitalist? Not really.

Sure you can make money... but to live to only make money is not truly living IMO. I often wonder why Oprah and a fee other high profile figures are billionaires and still work 20 hours a day. A friend of mine works for a pop music star who presents himself as a "save the planet" type fellow. He has been sued by everyone he works for andy friend says the guy is an evil genius who steals pennies from everyone. He wants it all... and actually uses crazy "spirits and alchemy" and I am saying too much... I sound crazy, but believe me. When you make insane amounts of money... it comes with a "price" and it's hard to keep it normal.

Now as far as the devil shirt... I know where Dee Dub is coming from and I agree. There has been a huge increase of skull and bones, devils and disturbing images being fashioned as hip and cool. They are not cool and innocent... IMO. They don't offend me but they bother me.

Ben keeps getting in trouble or shall we say, unfortunate accidents... He also has lost some close people in his life. I recently lost a very close parent in a car accident an hour after speaking to them. I'm not perfect or innocent but I make sure I respect myself and walk a straighter path.

I also have a friend who is a preacher and he isn't walking as straight as he could and I think his life is a mess right now because of it. Life is short, have fun but think before you act. I think Ben has been rewarded for his on field performance but off the field I'm getting the impression he is just doing and not thinking. I hope he is learning and humbling himself like he said he was in the interview with ESPN and not talking out his backside.

BradshawsHairdresser
03-06-2010, 03:00 AM
I personally am at a time in my life, a life that I had to turn completely around, where I dont want to associate with anything that goes against God. I was a lost soul for a long time and I know for a fact that when I was not plugged into God my life was horrible. And now that I have started putting him first above all my life has never been better.



Out of all your contributions to the message boards over the years, this is probably the most significant. Thanks for sharing this.

hawaiiansteel
03-06-2010, 03:02 AM
Can a christian be a capitalist? Not really.

Sure you can make money... but to live to only make money is not truly living IMO. I often wonder why Oprah and a fee other high profile figures are billionaires and still work 20 hours a day. A friend of mine works for a pop music star who presents himself as a "save the planet" type fellow. He has been sued by everyone he works for andy friend says the guy is an evil genius who steals pennies from everyone. He wants it all... and actually uses crazy "spirits and alchemy" and I am saying too much... I sound crazy, but believe me. When you make insane amounts of money... it comes with a "price" and it's hard to keep it normal.

Now as far as the devil shirt... I know where Dee Dub is coming from and I agree. There has been a huge increase of skull and bones, devils and disturbing images being fashioned as hip and cool. They are not cool and innocent... IMO. They don't offend me but they bother me.

Ben keeps getting in trouble or shall we say, unfortunate accidents... He also has lost some close people in his life. I recently lost a very close parent in a car accident an hour after speaking to them. I'm not perfect or innocent but I make sure I respect myself and walk a straighter path.

I also have a friend who is a preacher and he isn't walking as straight as he could and I think his life is a mess right now because of it. Life is short, have fun but think before you act. I think Ben has been rewarded for his on field performance but off the field I'm getting the impression he is just doing and not thinking. I hope he is learning and humbling himself like he said he was in the interview with ESPN and not talking out his backside.



I'm a capitalist and I consider myself a Christian. I don't horde my wealth, I am giving of my money and my time. I don't steal from anyone.

I am not perfect, but no one is. Why can't a person who believes in the free enterprise system and capitalism still be able to be a good Christian?

skyhawk
03-06-2010, 03:10 AM
Good point. You see, for many Christians, it's usually ALL ABOUT THEMSELVES.

..sounds like you havent been around many true Christians. And those that claim to be and make everything about themselves....are far from what Christ has asked us to be.

Here's something I've wondered about, and haven't come to grips with really. Do you have any thoughts on this, DD?

Christ says give it all away.

Capitalism says make as much as you can.

Can a Christian be a capitalist?

I don't think Christ asked for all people to give their wealth away. Actually, there are quite a few significant Biblical figures who were very wealthy (ie King David, the man after God's own heart). He specifically asked his disciples to give away their worldy possessions and follow him. He also asked the rich man to do the same...basically asking him to become a disciple. He wanted his disciples focused soley on spreading the gospel. For the rest of us it's basically about what is more important to you....God or money? Hence greed is one of the 7 deadly sins because money is your God. But, there are some who can have money but not be owned/ruled by it. Just like some can eat without being a glutton.

I have never heard of a more irrelevant topic to debate than whether or not a christian (or Jesus) could/can be a capitalist. Seriously?

But if it's important to you, then great. I will now turn the channel. ;)

Lebsteel
03-06-2010, 10:19 AM
I personally am at a time in my life, a life that I had to turn completely around, where I dont want to associate with anything that goes against God. I was a lost soul for a long time and I know for a fact that when I was not plugged into God my life was horrible. And now that I have started putting him first above all my life has never been better.



Out of all your contributions to the message boards over the years, this is probably the most significant. Thanks for sharing this.
:Clap :Clap Well said, Brad and DD. I too thank you for sharing and I pray that this post has possibly spoken to someone's heart who may be struggling. God Bless you all.

NorthCoast
03-06-2010, 10:30 AM
Isn't there some proverb in the Bible: Judge ye not, lest ye be judged....?

Lebsteel
03-06-2010, 10:47 AM
Isn't there some proverb in the Bible: Judge ye not, lest ye be judged....?
Oh, yeah there are many references to judging others in the Bible. Here are a few from the Message translation:

Matthew 7:1-5
Don't pick on people, jump on their failures, criticize their faults— unless, of course, you want the same treatment. That critical spirit has a way of boomeranging. It's easy to see a smudge on your neighbor's face and be oblivious to the ugly sneer on your own. Do you have the nerve to say, 'Let me wash your face for you,' when your own face is distorted by contempt? It's this whole traveling road-show mentality all over again, playing a holier-than-thou part instead of just living your part. Wipe that ugly sneer off your own face, and you might be fit to offer a washcloth to your neighbor.

Matthew 7:15-20
"Be wary of false preachers who smile a lot, dripping with practiced sincerity. Chances are they are out to rip you off some way or other. Don't be impressed with charisma; look for character. Who preachers are is the main thing, not what they say. A genuine leader will never exploit your emotions or your pocketbook. These diseased trees with their bad apples are going to be chopped down and burned.

Romans 2:1-2
Those people are on a dark spiral downward. But if you think that leaves you on the high ground where you can point your finger at others, think again. Every time you criticize someone, you condemn yourself. It takes one to know one. Judgmental criticism of others is a well-known way of escaping detection in your own crimes and misdemeanors. But God isn't so easily diverted. He sees right through all such smoke screens and holds you to what you've done.

I hope that helps.

SteelAbility
03-06-2010, 11:42 AM
I'm a christian. I think Ben's wearing that shirt is just poor judgment in light of recent developments. I'm not offended by his wearing the shirt. I do think the "devil" image goes around in a very lighthearted way. Both ways can go to an extreme. Too serious about the Devil. Turns into Crusades, Witch Hunts and Inquisitions. Too light. Leads to debauchery, poor decision making and caving into unhealthy cravings.

Ironically, how you view the wearing the shirt can make all the difference. Maybe Ben is saying there is a little devil in me? A cry for help perhaps?

From what I've read, I can see some misconceptions about Christianity. It comes about because of people like the one Snarky ran into at his swimming club. For the record here's true Christianity as I understand it ...

1. God created man for a relationship with Himself. God would be the guide, man the follower exercising all of his intellect and creative abilities in perfect freedom, unashamed, unabashed, and unabated to demonstrate his Creator's glory. Life was just like that one day. There were no lies, deceptions, pretenses, or hypocrisies. God was on the throne of man's heart and life was filled with absolute bliss.

2. God gave man one rule. Don't play God. That rule was expressed in a command not to eat the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. On my own, I would have thought it would be tree of the "knowledge of evil." But it was labeled the tree of the knowledge of "good and evil." I personally find that very interesting.

3. Man broke the rule and became separated from God in his attitude/values/lifestyle/thoughts/emotions/on-and-on. The attempt to usurp the knowlege of good and evil resulted in a type of death. Now man would become a slave to all kinds of things. God was pushed out of his heart. His own knowledge of good and evil would guide him now. See how that turned out. The Bible calls the outcropping of this knowledge of good and evil "sin." Sin, in its essence, represents man's determination to be independent or self-exalted. Every sin a man commits is rooted either in independence or exaltation or both because he, in fact, "knows better than God."

4. Sin demands God's judgment. That judgment is an eternity of separation from God. This is where the rub is for many people. An eternity seems pretty harsh. This is a topic of much philosophical debate. However, as I understand it, sin is eternal in its implication since it is committed against an eternal God. It's not about the size of the sin (e.g. Hitler versus the shoplifter). It's about the magnitude of the One against Whom it is committed. In God's economy, SIN MUST BE PAID FOR. BTW, the Bible does have more to say about Hitler versus the shoplifter and certainly does not say that they will be punished equally (in hell).

5. Sin must be paid for. This is where Jesus (the Christ) comes in. According to the Bible writers, Jesus was God incarnate. God would become a man. Well, but that's ridiculous. How could a man be God? Good question. But could an omnipotent God become a man? The Bible claims this very thing. Jesus would live the sinless life, culminating with offering HIMSELF as the payment for sin on a cruel Roman cross. (Now we are getting a bit into the Trinity, but bear with me).

6. God would accept Christ's payment for sin. But here's the next rub. The payment applies to those who put their faith in Him to be right with God. God doesn't force righteousness ON anyone. He offers it TO everyone. It must be received. Those who don't accept God's payment on their behalf will eventually have to pay themselves. In 2nd Corinthians, the Scripture says that "God made him who knew no sin (Christ) to be sin for us that we might become the righteousness of God in Him." Rightness with God is rooted not in any man on his own, but in Christ and his perfect work. Faith connects a man to that "rightness."

7. A dirty rag cannot clean itself. We can try on our own to make it right with God. It won't avail anything. We are already unclean and soiled by sin. An external agent must be applied to clean a dirty rag. The Bible says "But we are all an unclean thing, and all our righteusness as filthy rags (before God)." God offers the perfect righteousness of His Son to all who will receive it.

Sadly these Biblical teachings have become obscured by, as mentioned, things like the Crusades, witch hunts, inquisitions, ladies at swim clubs and the like.

Shawn
03-06-2010, 11:58 AM
Isn't there some proverb in the Bible: Judge ye not, lest ye be judged....?
Oh, yeah there are many references to judging others in the Bible. Here are a few from the Message translation:

Matthew 7:1-5
Don't pick on people, jump on their failures, criticize their faults— unless, of course, you want the same treatment. That critical spirit has a way of boomeranging. It's easy to see a smudge on your neighbor's face and be oblivious to the ugly sneer on your own. Do you have the nerve to say, 'Let me wash your face for you,' when your own face is distorted by contempt? It's this whole traveling road-show mentality all over again, playing a holier-than-thou part instead of just living your part. Wipe that ugly sneer off your own face, and you might be fit to offer a washcloth to your neighbor.

Matthew 7:15-20
"Be wary of false preachers who smile a lot, dripping with practiced sincerity. Chances are they are out to rip you off some way or other. Don't be impressed with charisma; look for character. Who preachers are is the main thing, not what they say. A genuine leader will never exploit your emotions or your pocketbook. These diseased trees with their bad apples are going to be chopped down and burned.

Romans 2:1-2
Those people are on a dark spiral downward. But if you think that leaves you on the high ground where you can point your finger at others, think again. Every time you criticize someone, you condemn yourself. It takes one to know one. Judgmental criticism of others is a well-known way of escaping detection in your own crimes and misdemeanors. But God isn't so easily diverted. He sees right through all such smoke screens and holds you to what you've done.

I hope that helps.

What translation is that? I'm a Concordant Literal myself.

Shawn
03-06-2010, 12:04 PM
Good point. You see, for many Christians, it's usually ALL ABOUT THEMSELVES.

..sounds like you havent been around many true Christians. And those that claim to be and make everything about themselves....are far from what Christ has asked us to be.

Here's something I've wondered about, and haven't come to grips with really. Do you have any thoughts on this, DD?

Christ says give it all away.

Capitalism says make as much as you can.

Can a Christian be a capitalist?

I don't think Christ asked for all people to give their wealth away. Actually, there are quite a few significant Biblical figures who were very wealthy (ie King David, the man after God's own heart). He specifically asked his disciples to give away their worldy possessions and follow him. He also asked the rich man to do the same...basically asking him to become a disciple. He wanted his disciples focused soley on spreading the gospel. For the rest of us it's basically about what is more important to you....God or money? Hence greed is one of the 7 deadly sins because money is your God. But, there are some who can have money but not be owned/ruled by it. Just like some can eat without being a glutton.

I have never heard of a more irrelevant topic to debate than whether or not a christian (or Jesus) could/can be a capitalist. Seriously?

But if it's important to you, then great. I will now turn the channel. ;)

I merely answered a question. It was an honest question and it got an honest answer. I'm sorry if that bothered you.

Shawn
03-06-2010, 12:10 PM
Can a christian be a capitalist? Not really.

Sure you can make money... but to live to only make money is not truly living IMO. I often wonder why Oprah and a fee other high profile figures are billionaires and still work 20 hours a day. A friend of mine works for a pop music star who presents himself as a "save the planet" type fellow. He has been sued by everyone he works for andy friend says the guy is an evil genius who steals pennies from everyone. He wants it all... and actually uses crazy "spirits and alchemy" and I am saying too much... I sound crazy, but believe me. When you make insane amounts of money... it comes with a "price" and it's hard to keep it normal.

Now as far as the devil shirt... I know where Dee Dub is coming from and I agree. There has been a huge increase of skull and bones, devils and disturbing images being fashioned as hip and cool. They are not cool and innocent... IMO. They don't offend me but they bother me.

Ben keeps getting in trouble or shall we say, unfortunate accidents... He also has lost some close people in his life. I recently lost a very close parent in a car accident an hour after speaking to them. I'm not perfect or innocent but I make sure I respect myself and walk a straighter path.

I also have a friend who is a preacher and he isn't walking as straight as he could and I think his life is a mess right now because of it. Life is short, have fun but think before you act. I think Ben has been rewarded for his on field performance but off the field I'm getting the impression he is just doing and not thinking. I hope he is learning and humbling himself like he said he was in the interview with ESPN and not talking out his backside.

I had to look up the word capitalist to get a full definition.

1.a person who has capital, esp. extensive capital, invested in business enterprises.
2.an advocate of capitalism.
3.a very wealthy person.

By this definition I do believe a Christian can be a capitalist.

Back to the subject...the influx of images of evil into our society. I agree it concerns me but doesn't offend me. I think there is a big difference. I think there are many signs that our society is heading towards social/moral decay straying from family, dealing with neighbors in a fair way, and endulging in harmful vices. In that regard these symbols that have become hip are concerning. I get that. What I don't get is being offended by it...being hurt on a personal level by it.

feltdizz
03-06-2010, 12:21 PM
Can a christian be a capitalist? Not really.

Sure you can make money... but to live to only make money is not truly living IMO. I often wonder why Oprah and a fee other high profile figures are billionaires and still work 20 hours a day. A friend of mine works for a pop music star who presents himself as a "save the planet" type fellow. He has been sued by everyone he works for andy friend says the guy is an evil genius who steals pennies from everyone. He wants it all... and actually uses crazy "spirits and alchemy" and I am saying too much... I sound crazy, but believe me. When you make insane amounts of money... it comes with a "price" and it's hard to keep it normal.

Now as far as the devil shirt... I know where Dee Dub is coming from and I agree. There has been a huge increase of skull and bones, devils and disturbing images being fashioned as hip and cool. They are not cool and innocent... IMO. They don't offend me but they bother me.

Ben keeps getting in trouble or shall we say, unfortunate accidents... He also has lost some close people in his life. I recently lost a very close parent in a car accident an hour after speaking to them. I'm not perfect or innocent but I make sure I respect myself and walk a straighter path.

I also have a friend who is a preacher and he isn't walking as straight as he could and I think his life is a mess right now because of it. Life is short, have fun but think before you act. I think Ben has been rewarded for his on field performance but off the field I'm getting the impression he is just doing and not thinking. I hope he is learning and humbling himself like he said he was in the interview with ESPN and not talking out his backside.



I'm a capitalist and I consider myself a Christian. I don't horde my wealth, I am giving of my money and my time. I don't steal from anyone.

I am not perfect, but no one is. Why can't a person who believes in the free enterprise system and capitalism still be able to be a good Christian?

I don't know, I'm only human, born to make mistakes....

it's just my opinion... I'm not saying a person can't buy something for $1 dollar and sell it at market price. I guess I'm looking at our country and the banking system and wondering if this is capitalism as well?

Maybe I'm getting capitalism mixed up with hording wealth or greed.

feltdizz
03-06-2010, 12:38 PM
Isn't there some proverb in the Bible: Judge ye not, lest ye be judged....?

The Bible has a lot of things you should and shouldn't do...

It was written by man though.. and has been revised a lot over the years.

While I'm not a muslim the Qur'an is the purest book there is. They made the passages into song so it couldn't be manipulated.

steelernation77
03-06-2010, 12:44 PM
I think everyone is missing the real problem here, which is that Ben is getting way too fat.

cruzer8
03-06-2010, 12:45 PM
Oh my people. It's just a fu**ing shirt!!!

snarky
03-06-2010, 12:46 PM
Just for the record, my atheism was in no way the result of an interaction with the woman at the pool (or any Christian, for that matter). I was simply pointing out one very offensive incident and trying to distinguish between that and a t shirt.

SuperSize
03-06-2010, 01:06 PM
Good discussion, its interesting to read everyone's opinions on this matter.

I come down on the side that is disappointed in Ben for wearing the shirt as opposed to being offended by it. One thing that I haven't seen mentioned is that at one time, Ben claimed that he himself was a Christian (remember "PFJ' on his shoes as a rookie?), and this would make his choice of shirts doubly-disappointing. Any person claiming to be a Christian CANNOT believe that Satan is a fictional character, or that he is anything other than evil.

Its also interesting to see everyone's take on Christians. For myself, I prefer the term Follower of Christ, a moniker I adopted after once listening to Pastor & author Ed Dobson. Dobson contends that since so many people claim to be Christians yet don't follow the teachings that Jesus gave us that the term "Christian" is corrupted. I tend to agree, and nothing makes me sadder that when a hypocritical and/or overly-pious and/or judgmental "Christian" turns another non-believer away from God's love.

That being said, I hope that everyone participating in this thread, and everyone who is reading it, receives God's blessing, and I pray that God will reveal himself to you.

Go Steelers!


Pete

Lebsteel
03-06-2010, 01:09 PM
I'm a christian. I think Ben's wearing that shirt is just poor judgment in light of recent developments. I'm not offended by his wearing the shirt. I do think the "devil" image goes around in a very lighthearted way. Both ways can go to an extreme. Too serious about the Devil. Turns into Crusades, Witch Hunts and Inquisitions. Too light. Leads to debauchery, poor decision making and caving into unhealthy cravings.

Ironically, how you view the wearing the shirt can make all the difference. Maybe Ben is saying there is a little devil in me? A cry for help perhaps?

From what I've read, I can see some misconceptions about Christianity. It comes about because of people like the one Snarky ran into at his swimming club. For the record here's true Christianity as I understand it ...

1. God created man for a relationship with Himself. God would be the guide, man the follower exercising all of his intellect and creative abilities in perfect freedom, unashamed, unabashed, and unabated to demonstrate his Creator's glory. Life was just like that one day. There were no lies, deceptions, pretenses, or hypocrisies. God was on the throne of man's heart and life was filled with absolute bliss.

2. God gave man one rule. Don't play God. That rule was expressed in a command not to eat the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. On my own, I would have thought it would be tree of the "knowledge of evil." But it was labeled the tree of the knowledge of "good and evil." I personally find that very interesting.

3. Man broke the rule and became separated from God in his attitude/values/lifestyle/thoughts/emotions/on-and-on. The attempt to usurp the knowlege of good and evil resulted in a type of death. Now man would become a slave to all kinds of things. God was pushed out of his heart. His own knowledge of good and evil would guide him now. See how that turned out. The Bible calls the outcropping of this knowledge of good and evil "sin." Sin, in its essence, represents man's determination to be independent or self-exalted. Every sin a man commits is rooted either in independence or exaltation or both because he, in fact, "knows better than God."

4. Sin demands God's judgment. That judgment is an eternity of separation from God. This is where the rub is for many people. An eternity seems pretty harsh. This is a topic of much philosophical debate. However, as I understand it, sin is eternal in its implication since it is committed against an eternal God. It's not about the size of the sin (e.g. Hitler versus the shoplifter). It's about the magnitude of the One against Whom it is committed. In God's economy, SIN MUST BE PAID FOR. BTW, the Bible does have more to say about Hitler versus the shoplifter and certainly does not say that they will be punished equally (in hell).

5. Sin must be paid for. This is where Jesus (the Christ) comes in. According to the Bible writers, Jesus was God incarnate. God would become a man. Well, but that's ridiculous. How could a man be God? Good question. But could an omnipotent God become a man? The Bible claims this very thing. Jesus would live the sinless life, culminating with offering HIMSELF as the payment for sin on a cruel Roman cross. (Now we are getting a bit into the Trinity, but bear with me).

6. God would accept Christ's payment for sin. But here's the next rub. The payment applies to those who put their faith in Him to be right with God. God doesn't force righteousness ON anyone. He offers it TO everyone. It must be received. Those who don't accept God's payment on their behalf will eventually have to pay themselves. In 2nd Corinthians, the Scripture says that "God made him who knew no sin (Christ) to be sin for us that we might become the righteousness of God in Him." Rightness with God is rooted not in any man on his own, but in Christ and his perfect work. Faith connects a man to that "rightness."

7. A dirty rag cannot clean itself. We can try on our own to make it right with God. It won't avail anything. We are already unclean and soiled by sin. An external agent must be applied to clean a dirty rag. The Bible says "But we are all an unclean thing, and all our righteusness as filthy rags (before God)." God offers the perfect righteousness of His Son to all who will receive it.

Sadly these Biblical teachings have become obscured by, as mentioned, things like the Crusades, witch hunts, inquisitions, ladies at swim clubs and the like.
Wow, thanks for taking the time to put that all in words. Ben's poor taste in wardrobe IMO has maybe turned out for the good. I think that is the way God works. I'm not saying Ben wore it for that purpose, but I'd like to think that this thread has led some people, on both sides of the issue, to think maybe just a little deeper or differently than they might normally think.

Lebsteel
03-06-2010, 01:12 PM
Good discussion, its interesting to read everyone's opinions on this matter.

I come down on the side that is disappointed in Ben for wearing the shirt as opposed to being offended by it. One thing that I haven't seen mentioned is that at one time, Ben claimed that he himself was a Christian (remember "PFJ' on his shoes as a rookie?), and this would make his choice of shirts doubly-disappointing. Any person claiming to be a Christian CANNOT believe that Satan is a fictional character, or that he is anything other than evil.

Its also interesting to see everyone's take on Christians. For myself, I prefer the term Follower of Christ, a moniker I adopted after once listening to Pastor & author Ed Dobson. Dobson contends that since so many people claim to be Christians yet don't follow the teachings that Jesus gave us that the term "Christian" is corrupted. I tend to agree, and nothing makes me sadder that when a hypocritical and/or overly-pious and/or judgmental "Christian" turns another non-believer away from God's love.

That being said, I hope that everyone participating in this thread, and everyone who is reading it, receives God's blessing, and I pray that God will reveal himself to you.

Go Steelers!


Pete
Pete, well said and may God's blessings be on you as well.

Lebsteel
03-06-2010, 01:16 PM
Isn't there some proverb in the Bible: Judge ye not, lest ye be judged....?
Oh, yeah there are many references to judging others in the Bible. Here are a few from the Message translation:

Matthew 7:1-5
Don't pick on people, jump on their failures, criticize their faults— unless, of course, you want the same treatment. That critical spirit has a way of boomeranging. It's easy to see a smudge on your neighbor's face and be oblivious to the ugly sneer on your own. Do you have the nerve to say, 'Let me wash your face for you,' when your own face is distorted by contempt? It's this whole traveling road-show mentality all over again, playing a holier-than-thou part instead of just living your part. Wipe that ugly sneer off your own face, and you might be fit to offer a washcloth to your neighbor.

Matthew 7:15-20
"Be wary of false preachers who smile a lot, dripping with practiced sincerity. Chances are they are out to rip you off some way or other. Don't be impressed with charisma; look for character. Who preachers are is the main thing, not what they say. A genuine leader will never exploit your emotions or your pocketbook. These diseased trees with their bad apples are going to be chopped down and burned.

Romans 2:1-2
Those people are on a dark spiral downward. But if you think that leaves you on the high ground where you can point your finger at others, think again. Every time you criticize someone, you condemn yourself. It takes one to know one. Judgmental criticism of others is a well-known way of escaping detection in your own crimes and misdemeanors. But God isn't so easily diverted. He sees right through all such smoke screens and holds you to what you've done.

I hope that helps.

What translation is that? I'm a Concordant Literal myself.
The Message by Eugene Peterson. In my post, I called it a translation, but technically it is certainly not a literal translation but rather a paraphrase intended to put scripture into today's vernacular. If used in that way, I think it does a great job to help those who have a problem with the "thee's and thou's" of the KJV.

Dee Dub
03-06-2010, 01:20 PM
Isn't there some proverb in the Bible: Judge ye not, lest ye be judged....?

Im not sure why you would read what I said and come away with me judging someone. I suggest you go back and read my original post and try to do so with an open heart.

I am not judging Ben. In fact I would never judge any man. God is the one who is to judge. Ben really hasnt done anything wrong with wearing that symbol on his shirt as far as sin is concerned. I am a man who simply has so much love for God and what he has done to change me from being an ugly, horrible, miserable, lifeless human being, that I dont like to see people wearing the ultimate symbol for the exact opposite of what I have come to know as love.

When I was running amuck before I turned my life over to Jesus, I found that the way I walked, talked, and breathed, was against everything that was right. The pride, ego, greed, self-centeredness, lustfulness, etc., was in someway a direct way of supporting all that is wrong and evil. Everything that goes against what is right----God. And as a result of "wearing" that way a of life I often found myself in predicaments that caused heartache, pain, suffering, and loss. So today I do find it offensive to see the wearing of Satan on a t-shirt as if it is cool, hip, or funny to do so.

Dee Dub
03-06-2010, 01:31 PM
Isn't there some proverb in the Bible: Judge ye not, lest ye be judged....?

The Bible has a lot of things you should and shouldn't do...

It was written by man though.. and has been revised a lot over the years.

While I'm not a muslim the Qur'an is the purest book there is. They made the passages into song so it couldn't be manipulated.


My Bible hasn't been revised. It is the same today as it always has been. Yes it was written by men but God inspired those men to write it. Taking the Bible in it's original language and converting it into English isnt revising the message it has.

Now...what has been revised by man over the years is Jesus' church. Man has added unto that every since they day Christ sent out his disiples to preach the gospel.

Jesus never told Peter to go out and establish the Catholic Church. Nor did he tell Paul to go out and form the Lutheran Church or the Baptist Church. There was never a denomination called for by Christ. There was only one Church and that was the Church of Christ. It has been man who has changed and added unto his church ever since.

Shoe
03-06-2010, 01:37 PM
Around here is where the thread became worthwhile to me (honestly, arguing about a shirt is silly. As someone said earlier, "it's an effen shirt.")

I've lately gotten more philosophical, and I read my share. I've taken to a few books about Thoreau, and his general belief system. Mainly how you don't need that much to be happy... in other words, if you want to be happy, learn to lower your standards and appreciate that.

In our society today, we are always working working working so that we can have all the creature comforts, a bigger house, the SUV, etc. I think they call it the Rat Race. It's like, if you had a job that you enjoyed, that paid you 100k a year, and you lived in a humble place AND appreciated that place for what it's purpose is... you would enjoy life much more than most people today, who would be looking for a house (i.e. a $5k/mo. mortgage ) that would "suit" their income status.

I just thought that, reading (wading) through this long thread! Continue on.



Can a christian be a capitalist? Not really.

Sure you can make money... but to live to only make money is not truly living IMO. I often wonder why Oprah and a fee other high profile figures are billionaires and still work 20 hours a day. A friend of mine works for a pop music star who presents himself as a "save the planet" type fellow. He has been sued by everyone he works for andy friend says the guy is an evil genius who steals pennies from everyone. He wants it all... and actually uses crazy "spirits and alchemy" and I am saying too much... I sound crazy, but believe me. When you make insane amounts of money... it comes with a "price" and it's hard to keep it normal.

Now as far as the devil shirt... I know where Dee Dub is coming from and I agree. There has been a huge increase of skull and bones, devils and disturbing images being fashioned as hip and cool. They are not cool and innocent... IMO. They don't offend me but they bother me.

Ben keeps getting in trouble or shall we say, unfortunate accidents... He also has lost some close people in his life. I recently lost a very close parent in a car accident an hour after speaking to them. I'm not perfect or innocent but I make sure I respect myself and walk a straighter path.

I also have a friend who is a preacher and he isn't walking as straight as he could and I think his life is a mess right now because of it. Life is short, have fun but think before you act. I think Ben has been rewarded for his on field performance but off the field I'm getting the impression he is just doing and not thinking. I hope he is learning and humbling himself like he said he was in the interview with ESPN and not talking out his backside.



I'm a capitalist and I consider myself a Christian. I don't horde my wealth, I am giving of my money and my time. I don't steal from anyone.

I am not perfect, but no one is. Why can't a person who believes in the free enterprise system and capitalism still be able to be a good Christian?

Lebsteel
03-06-2010, 01:54 PM
Around here is where the thread became worthwhile to me (honestly, arguing about a shirt is silly. As someone said earlier, "it's an effen shirt.")

I've lately gotten more philosophical, and I read my share. I've taken to a few books about Thoreau, and his general belief system. Mainly how you don't need that much to be happy... in other words, if you want to be happy, learn to lower your standards and appreciate that.

In our society today, we are always working working working so that we can have all the creature comforts, a bigger house, the SUV, etc. I think they call it the Rat Race. It's like, if you had a job that you enjoyed, that paid you 100k a year, and you lived in a humble place AND appreciated that place for what it's purpose is... you would enjoy life much more than most people today, who would be looking for a house (i.e. a $5k/mo. mortgage ) that would "suit" their income status.

I just thought that, reading (wading) through this long thread! Continue on.



Can a christian be a capitalist? Not really.

Sure you can make money... but to live to only make money is not truly living IMO. I often wonder why Oprah and a fee other high profile figures are billionaires and still work 20 hours a day. A friend of mine works for a pop music star who presents himself as a "save the planet" type fellow. He has been sued by everyone he works for andy friend says the guy is an evil genius who steals pennies from everyone. He wants it all... and actually uses crazy "spirits and alchemy" and I am saying too much... I sound crazy, but believe me. When you make insane amounts of money... it comes with a "price" and it's hard to keep it normal.

Now as far as the devil shirt... I know where Dee Dub is coming from and I agree. There has been a huge increase of skull and bones, devils and disturbing images being fashioned as hip and cool. They are not cool and innocent... IMO. They don't offend me but they bother me.

Ben keeps getting in trouble or shall we say, unfortunate accidents... He also has lost some close people in his life. I recently lost a very close parent in a car accident an hour after speaking to them. I'm not perfect or innocent but I make sure I respect myself and walk a straighter path.

I also have a friend who is a preacher and he isn't walking as straight as he could and I think his life is a mess right now because of it. Life is short, have fun but think before you act. I think Ben has been rewarded for his on field performance but off the field I'm getting the impression he is just doing and not thinking. I hope he is learning and humbling himself like he said he was in the interview with ESPN and not talking out his backside.



I'm a capitalist and I consider myself a Christian. I don't horde my wealth, I am giving of my money and my time. I don't steal from anyone.

I am not perfect, but no one is. Why can't a person who believes in the free enterprise system and capitalism still be able to be a good Christian?
Shoe, have you ever been in a impoverished area of the world or even in our own country and talked to people there? Some of them, who literally have NOTHING, are some of the happiest people I have EVER met. I have often thought about that and wondered how can that be. I think I now understand how that can happen, but we Americans have it so good and are by nature always wanting more and ultimately we will never be happy by trying to gain material wealth. Spiritual wealth (for me it is faith in Jesus Christ) is where it is at! That is the true road to happiness in this life. I truly believe that there is no other way to happiness in this life.

Djfan
03-06-2010, 01:58 PM
Dee Dub,

please remember that religious people are to be made fun of (except Muslims), and hatred for all things Christian is a sign of intellect.

If you want intelligent discussion you have to stick with issues that ultimately don't matter.

cruzer8
03-06-2010, 02:04 PM
Dee Dub,

please remember that religious people are to be made fun of (except Muslims), and hatred for all things Christian is a sign of intellect.

If you want intelligent discussion you have to stick with issues that ultimately don't matter.

And non-religious people are to be chastisied for not believing in something that has never been proved beyond even a reasonable doubt.

eniparadoxgma
03-06-2010, 02:05 PM
Dee Dub,

please remember that religious people are to be made fun of (except Muslims), and hatred for all things Christian is a sign of intellect.

If you want intelligent discussion you have to stick with issues that ultimately don't matter.

In a thread where it seems as if all sides have been fairly respectful, where did that post come from, Djfan?

snarky
03-06-2010, 02:05 PM
My Bible hasn't been revised. It is the same today as it always has been. Yes it was written by men but God inspired those men to write it.

I thought some of the first ecumenical councils actually altered the bible. Perhaps I'm wrong.

Dee Dub
03-06-2010, 02:58 PM
My Bible hasn't been revised. It is the same today as it always has been. Yes it was written by men but God inspired those men to write it.

I thought some of the first ecumenical councils actually altered the bible. Perhaps I'm wrong.

Ok I challenge you or any other person in this entire world to show a verse that has been changed or altered from it's original meaning. I am not talking about books/chapters that were ommited from the beginning before the Bible was put together in its final draft.

If you have God in your heart you know without a doubt that the Bible's final draft is God inspired and God directed regardless of what men or what counsils oversaw the putting together of the Bible.

Dee Dub
03-06-2010, 03:12 PM
Dee Dub,

please remember that religious people are to be made fun of (except Muslims), and hatred for all things Christian is a sign of intellect.

If you want intelligent discussion you have to stick with issues that ultimately don't matter.

And non-religious people are to be chastisied for not believing in something that has never been proved beyond even a reasonable doubt.

Again...any so called Christian who chastises non-believers or discourages them from knowing God's love isnt a true Christian. A true follower of Christ.

My friend I am sorry that there has been people who have left you with this feeling about Christianity. This is wrong and is not what being a Christian is all about. If man could achieve salvation by what he does then Jesus would have never had to go to the cross. And our Lord knows this. He knows we all fall short of the glory of God. We should never critisize, chastise, or look down upon anyone for anything they do. That goes against everything that Jesus stands for. Now we are human and we can be affected, hurt, and even offended by others actions. Like when I see Ben wearing Satan on his t-shirt. But I am in no way judging him. How can I? I dont know what is in his heart.

And one last thing....Doubt and Faith can never co-exist. If you submit yourself to God, trust in him, have faith in him, and obey him, you will never have any reasonable doubt whether or not he is real.

cruzer8
03-06-2010, 03:15 PM
Dee Dub,

please remember that religious people are to be made fun of (except Muslims), and hatred for all things Christian is a sign of intellect.

If you want intelligent discussion you have to stick with issues that ultimately don't matter.

And non-religious people are to be chastisied for not believing in something that has never been proved beyond even a reasonable doubt.

Again...any so called Christian who chastises non-believers or discourages them from knowing God's love isnt a true Christian. A true follower of Christ.

My friend I am sorry that there has been people who have left you with this feeling about Christianity. This is wrong and is not what being a Christian is all about. If man could achieve salvation by what he does then Jesus would have never had to go to the cross. And our Lord knows this. He knows we all fall short of the glory of God. We should never critisize, chastise, or look down upon anyone for anything they do. That goes against everything that Jesus stands for. Now we are human and we can be affected, hurt, and even offended by others actions. Like when I see Ben wearing Satan on his t-shirt. But I am in no way judging him. How can I? I dont know what is in his heart.

And one last thing....Doubt and Faith can never co-exist. If you submit yourself to God, trust in him, have faith in him, and obey him, you will never have any reasonable doubt whether or not he is real.

I do have faith--that it is all a bunch of hogwash dreamed up by ancient peoples while they were tripping on peyote.

Dee Dub
03-06-2010, 03:25 PM
I do have faith--that it is all a bunch of hogwash dreamed up by ancient peoples while they were tripping on peyote.

Yeah I use to think like that too. Then I got tired of living my life for the things of this world. I got tired of all the emptiness, pain, and hurt I felt and caused. God saved me when I turned to him in an act of faith and did what he asked me to do......

Confess Jesus is the son of God, Repent, and was Baptised in water.

Since then my life has been the best it ever has. And I give God all the credit.

SteelAbility
03-06-2010, 03:50 PM
Dee Dub,

please remember that religious people are to be made fun of (except Muslims), and hatred for all things Christian is a sign of intellect.

If you want intelligent discussion you have to stick with issues that ultimately don't matter.

And non-religious people are to be chastisied for not believing in something that has never been proved beyond even a reasonable doubt.

Again...any so called Christian who chastises non-believers or discourages them from knowing God's love isnt a true Christian. A true follower of Christ.

My friend I am sorry that there has been people who have left you with this feeling about Christianity. This is wrong and is not what being a Christian is all about. If man could achieve salvation by what he does then Jesus would have never had to go to the cross. And our Lord knows this. He knows we all fall short of the glory of God. We should never critisize, chastise, or look down upon anyone for anything they do. That goes against everything that Jesus stands for. Now we are human and we can be affected, hurt, and even offended by others actions. Like when I see Ben wearing Satan on his t-shirt. But I am in no way judging him. How can I? I dont know what is in his heart.

And one last thing....Doubt and Faith can never co-exist. If you submit yourself to God, trust in him, have faith in him, and obey him, you will never have any reasonable doubt whether or not he is real.

I do have faith--that it is all a bunch of hogwash dreamed up by ancient peoples while they were tripping on peyote.

cruzer, do you remember inductive proofs from math class? In the inductive method, the claim is considered true then tested/verified. So, you'll say then why don't you consider other claims to be true and test them? That's a good question and certainly one I have considered.

I can give you a simple example in Christianity. You judge for yourself whether or not it matches reality as you perceive it. The Bible teaches that man is sinful. As I mentioned in my post this essentially means that man lusts after independence and self-exaltation, leading to all kinds of heinous perpetrations. So let's take a look at some examples ...

In all cases you will see one or the other of independence or self-exaltation ...

Hitler
Stalin
Rapist
Someone lying at work to get ahead of another person
Money Scams
Idi Amin (spelling?)
Murderer
Inquisition (this is an interesting one because it was allegedly done in the name of God and the Bible. There is a verse in 2nd Peter that addreses this ... "which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures." This is a prime example of twisting the scriptures, thinking onesself to have it together. It's rooted in "I have it together with God MORE than the other guy" which is a form of self-exaltation).
Abusive Person

Now this is just one example. There are other examples of inductive approach to Bible.

The central theme of the Bible revolves around being "conformed to the image of Christ." There is a verse in Galatians that describes being like Christ ...

loving - joyful - peaceful - patient -kind - good - gentle - faithful - self-controlled

The verse goes on to say that "against such things there is no law." In contrast, the items I listed are either things or people whose actions are condemned by law (man-made laws and ultimately law of conscience). Do you really think, in a world dominated by self-centeredness, people would come up with fairy tales that so poignantly expose the inner darkness and hypocrisy and lays it bare on the table for all to see?

cruzer8
03-06-2010, 04:07 PM
Yes. People are hypocrites.

eniparadoxgma
03-06-2010, 04:31 PM
Dee Dub,

please remember that religious people are to be made fun of (except Muslims), and hatred for all things Christian is a sign of intellect.

If you want intelligent discussion you have to stick with issues that ultimately don't matter.

And non-religious people are to be chastisied for not believing in something that has never been proved beyond even a reasonable doubt.

Again...any so called Christian who chastises non-believers or discourages them from knowing God's love isnt a true Christian. A true follower of Christ.

My friend I am sorry that there has been people who have left you with this feeling about Christianity. This is wrong and is not what being a Christian is all about. If man could achieve salvation by what he does then Jesus would have never had to go to the cross. And our Lord knows this. He knows we all fall short of the glory of God. We should never critisize, chastise, or look down upon anyone for anything they do. That goes against everything that Jesus stands for. Now we are human and we can be affected, hurt, and even offended by others actions. Like when I see Ben wearing Satan on his t-shirt. But I am in no way judging him. How can I? I dont know what is in his heart.

And one last thing....Doubt and Faith can never co-exist. If you submit yourself to God, trust in him, have faith in him, and obey him, you will never have any reasonable doubt whether or not he is real.

I do have faith--that it is all a bunch of hogwash dreamed up by ancient peoples while they were tripping on peyote.

cruzer, do you remember inductive proofs from math class? In the inductive method, the claim is considered true then tested/verified. So, you'll say then why don't you consider other claims to be true and test them? That's a good question and certainly one I have considered.

I can give you a simple example in Christianity. You judge for yourself whether or not it matches reality as you perceive it. The Bible teaches that man is sinful. As I mentioned in my post this essentially means that man lusts after independence and self-exaltation, leading to all kinds of heinous perpetrations. So let's take a look at some examples ...

In all cases you will see one or the other of independence or self-exaltation ...

Hitler
Stalin
Rapist
Someone lying at work to get ahead of another person
Money Scams
Idi Amin (spelling?)
Murderer
Inquisition (this is an interesting one because it was allegedly done in the name of God and the Bible. There is a verse in 2nd Peter that addreses this ... "which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures." This is a prime example of twisting the scriptures, thinking onesself to have it together. It's rooted in "I have it together with God MORE than the other guy" which is a form of self-exaltation).
Abusive Person

Now this is just one example. There are other examples of inductive approach to Bible.

The central theme of the Bible revolves around being "conformed to the image of Christ." There is a verse in Galatians that describes being like Christ ...

loving - joyful - peaceful - patient -kind - good - gentle - faithful - self-controlled

The verse goes on to say that "against such things there is no law." In contrast, the items I listed are either things or people whose actions are condemned by law (man-made laws and ultimately law of conscience). Do you really think, in a world dominated by self-centeredness, people would come up with fairy tales that so poignantly expose the inner darkness and hypocrisy and lays it bare on the table for all to see?

Honestly I'm not sure as to your point. I can point to many non-religious texts that speak of things that are true about the human condition...

Shoe
03-06-2010, 04:32 PM
Shoe, have you ever been in a impoverished area of the world or even in our own country and talked to people there? Some of them, who literally have NOTHING, are some of the happiest people I have EVER met. I have often thought about that and wondered how can that be. I think I now understand how that can happen, but we Americans have it so good and are by nature always wanting more and ultimately we will never be happy by trying to gain material wealth. Spiritual wealth (for me it is faith in Jesus Christ) is where it is at! That is the true road to happiness in this life. I truly believe that there is no other way to happiness in this life.

I can't really say I have Leb. Like you, I'm really trying to embrace this idea though. The problem is, I do like living where I live, I've grown up my whole life in this (consumption) society, and honestly: people judge you by the things you have.

As far as that last thing goes, most instances I really couldn't care. For example, for the last... 1.5 years maybe? I've gone sans car. I just ride my bike to work, or get a ride (I'm gonna get a scooter soon too. :wink: ) It's a choice I'm making, for financial, environmental (not necessarily living green; just want to do my part to reduce traffic in my area), and other reasons.

But let's be honest: for a man to not have a car in this day & age, people look at you as some kind of loser (I had a car; I dumped it though cuz I want to try and live without... and if I have a car, honestly... I'll just drive it cuz of laziness :oops: ).

And could you imagine a guy like Thoreau, if he lived today. Thoreau is currently looked up to as a great thinker, writer, etc. But if he lived today, he'd probably be branded something of a nutjob, simply because he lives without. And sometimes, I just feel like it's (all my attempts at minimizing my life) all for nothing. I don't know.

snarky
03-06-2010, 05:07 PM
Dee Dub,

please remember that religious people are to be made fun of (except Muslims), and hatred for all things Christian is a sign of intellect.

If you want intelligent discussion you have to stick with issues that ultimately don't matter.

And non-religious people are to be chastisied for not believing in something that has never been proved beyond even a reasonable doubt.

Again...any so called Christian who chastises non-believers or discourages them from knowing God's love isnt a true Christian. A true follower of Christ.

My friend I am sorry that there has been people who have left you with this feeling about Christianity. This is wrong and is not what being a Christian is all about. If man could achieve salvation by what he does then Jesus would have never had to go to the cross. And our Lord knows this. He knows we all fall short of the glory of God. We should never critisize, chastise, or look down upon anyone for anything they do. That goes against everything that Jesus stands for. Now we are human and we can be affected, hurt, and even offended by others actions. Like when I see Ben wearing Satan on his t-shirt. But I am in no way judging him. How can I? I dont know what is in his heart.

And one last thing....Doubt and Faith can never co-exist. If you submit yourself to God, trust in him, have faith in him, and obey him, you will never have any reasonable doubt whether or not he is real.

I do have faith--that it is all a bunch of hogwash dreamed up by ancient peoples while they were tripping on peyote.

cruzer, do you remember inductive proofs from math class? In the inductive method, the claim is considered true then tested/verified. So, you'll say then why don't you consider other claims to be true and test them? That's a good question and certainly one I have considered.

I can give you a simple example in Christianity. You judge for yourself whether or not it matches reality as you perceive it. The Bible teaches that man is sinful. As I mentioned in my post this essentially means that man lusts after independence and self-exaltation, leading to all kinds of heinous perpetrations. So let's take a look at some examples ...

In all cases you will see one or the other of independence or self-exaltation ...

Hitler
Stalin
Rapist
Someone lying at work to get ahead of another person
Money Scams
Idi Amin (spelling?)
Murderer
Inquisition (this is an interesting one because it was allegedly done in the name of God and the Bible. There is a verse in 2nd Peter that addreses this ... "which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures." This is a prime example of twisting the scriptures, thinking onesself to have it together. It's rooted in "I have it together with God MORE than the other guy" which is a form of self-exaltation).
Abusive Person

Now this is just one example. There are other examples of inductive approach to Bible.

The central theme of the Bible revolves around being "conformed to the image of Christ." There is a verse in Galatians that describes being like Christ ...

loving - joyful - peaceful - patient -kind - good - gentle - faithful - self-controlled

The verse goes on to say that "against such things there is no law." In contrast, the items I listed are either things or people whose actions are condemned by law (man-made laws and ultimately law of conscience). Do you really think, in a world dominated by self-centeredness, people would come up with fairy tales that so poignantly expose the inner darkness and hypocrisy and lays it bare on the table for all to see?

Not sure if I am reading your point here or not, but if you are using this to argue for the accuracy/infallibility of the Bible then I would call this a very weak argument. I mean, the Bible also says Pi = 3 and (if you believe the Ussher chronology) that the earth is about 6010 years old. These are both demonstrably false.

Shawn
03-06-2010, 05:39 PM
Snarky...I'm not big on arguing the science of the Bible though I'm well versed in it. I have been in so many of these converations and they get no where. But, the Bible doesn't state that the world is 6010 years old. The only people who believe that are those that take a literal translation of the book of Genesis. One day= one day. Later in the Bible it also speaks of a day being like a thousand years and a thousand years like a day. It talks about the order in which creation was made...those taking the timeline literally are obviously mistaken. Also, we know when certain books of the Bible were written. Certain passages I'm too lazy to look up right now speak about God rolling the universe out like a blanket (big bang) and the world being a sphere held up by nothingness....this was written during a time long before any of this knowledge was known. I could go on and on but I won't bore people.

For those interested in this kind of stuff...pick up the book Signature of God. Also for those that struggle with some of the traditional teachings of the church that make zero sense...which there are many...check out Martin Zender. I have been prompted by some of his writings to study the Greek for myself. That journey has led me to more truth in the last year than I can fully explain. It led me on a journey to question everything I had been taught...to questions traditional teachings...to question translations which I always used to believe are free of error. It was a scarey journey that strengthened my faith...not weakened it.

With all of this said, I'm at a place where you either believe it or you don't. No amount of science, fact, history, accurate translations will change what many people want to do or believe. But, for those that are curious start with the Signature of God for the science and go with Zender for help with difficult questions. Then go study for yourself.

Shawn
03-06-2010, 06:21 PM
[quote="Dee Dub":3t8has10]

My Bible hasn't been revised. It is the same today as it always has been. Yes it was written by men but God inspired those men to write it.

I thought some of the first ecumenical councils actually altered the bible. Perhaps I'm wrong.

Ok I challenge you or any other person in this entire world to show a verse that has been changed or altered from it's original meaning. I am not talking about books/chapters that were ommited from the beginning before the Bible was put together in its final draft.

If you have God in your heart you know without a doubt that the Bible's final draft is God inspired and God directed regardless of what men or what counsils oversaw the putting together of the Bible.[/quote:3t8has10]

This is starting to tread on ground where I might offend some Christians. It could get into a conversation some are not ready to have because what they believe is comfortable. But, the english translation of greek text is not completely accurate in some instances...some of the most important instances. Did you know many times Jesus spoke of hell in our translations the greek word is Gehenna? Gehenna is a a geographical location...small little valley in the southwest corner of Jerusalem. It was used as a dumping ground and a crematorium. He was not referring to the hell built for supernatural beings of evil. Don't trust my word...buy a concordance and check yourself. I truly believe KJV, NIV, and NASB translators turned a geographical location into a place of eternal torment. Jesus also speaks of hades also mistranslated which means unseen. It never meant a place of eternal torment until biblical translators go ahold of that word. Hades is no more of a place of eternal torment than Geheena. The only greek word that actually means a place of torment is the word Tartarus which was created for supernatural beings of evil...ie satan. It's funny Jesus never mentions this word about people or their eternal destiny. What better way to maintain control than through false fear? Do you guys really believe an God who loves agape, who is just, would create and burn his children eternally? Even if you believe they deserve punishment...which we all do...would a just God punish temporal sin with infinite punishment? Come on. That makes no sense. That would be the eptiome of injustice. The Christian concept of hell blasphemes God's character.

Another mistranslation the Greek word aionion in english is eonian which is the adjectival form of eon. What does an eon mean to you? Does it mean forever? Or does it mean a long time? Our translators tranlated aionion into everlasting or eternal. Just grab a concordance and look for yourself. It's amazing more people haven't called the church out on these things. Or maybe they have...and those are the people who have problems believing. Who wants to serve a God who is about love me or burn in fire eternally?

Now you can do three things with the information I just gave you...you can become discouraged because your beliefs about the inerrant translations of the Bible are crushed. You can ignore me and write me off as an idiot. Or you can use this as a catalyst for you to understand the truth about Biblical teachings. You can search for yourself.

Lebsteel
03-06-2010, 06:56 PM
Shoe, have you ever been in a impoverished area of the world or even in our own country and talked to people there? Some of them, who literally have NOTHING, are some of the happiest people I have EVER met. I have often thought about that and wondered how can that be. I think I now understand how that can happen, but we Americans have it so good and are by nature always wanting more and ultimately we will never be happy by trying to gain material wealth. Spiritual wealth (for me it is faith in Jesus Christ) is where it is at! That is the true road to happiness in this life. I truly believe that there is no other way to happiness in this life.

I can't really say I have Leb. Like you, I'm really trying to embrace this idea though. The problem is, I do like living where I live, I've grown up my whole life in this (consumption) society, and honestly: people judge you by the things you have.

As far as that last thing goes, most instances I really couldn't care. For example, for the last... 1.5 years maybe? I've gone sans car. I just ride my bike to work, or get a ride (I'm gonna get a scooter soon too. :wink: ) It's a choice I'm making, for financial, environmental (not necessarily living green; just want to do my part to reduce traffic in my area), and other reasons.

But let's be honest: for a man to not have a car in this day & age, people look at you as some kind of loser (I had a car; I dumped it though cuz I want to try and live without... and if I have a car, honestly... I'll just drive it cuz of laziness :oops: ).

And could you imagine a guy like Thoreau, if he lived today. Thoreau is currently looked up to as a great thinker, writer, etc. But if he lived today, he'd probably be branded something of a nutjob, simply because he lives without. And sometimes, I just feel like it's (all my attempts at minimizing my life) all for nothing. I don't know.
Shoe, the one thing that I know and believe with all my heart is that when we honor God by putting him first in our lives, he will give us "the peace that passes all understanding." By no means does he promise us that we will always be happy, rich and not ever have to worry or have struggles in our lives. He tells us that he will always be with us no matter what situation we are facing in life. God Bless you in your journey.

snarky
03-06-2010, 07:09 PM
[quote="Dee Dub":3fjlbyxr]

My Bible hasn't been revised. It is the same today as it always has been. Yes it was written by men but God inspired those men to write it.

I thought some of the first ecumenical councils actually altered the bible. Perhaps I'm wrong.

Ok I challenge you or any other person in this entire world to show a verse that has been changed or altered from it's original meaning. I am not talking about books/chapters that were ommited from the beginning before the Bible was put together in its final draft.

If you have God in your heart you know without a doubt that the Bible's final draft is God inspired and God directed regardless of what men or what counsils oversaw the putting together of the Bible.[/quote:3fjlbyxr]

http://tothewire.wordpress.com/2009/07/ ... ays-bible/ (http://tothewire.wordpress.com/2009/07/06/the-oldest-known-bible-shows-alterations-to-todays-bible/)

Some quotes


The Codex – and other early manuscripts – omit some mentions of ascension of Jesus into heaven, and key references to the Resurrection, which the Archbishop of Canterbury has said is essential for Christian belief.


Also missing is the story of the woman taken in adultery and about to be stoned – until Jesus rebuked the Pharisees (a Jewish sect), inviting anyone without sin to cast the first stone.

Also, if the bible was God inspired or God-guided, why would there need to be multiple drafts or multiple ecumenical councils?

snarky
03-06-2010, 07:13 PM
Snarky...I'm not big on arguing the science of the Bible though I'm well versed in it. I have been in so many of these converations and they get no where. But, the Bible doesn't state that the world is 6010 years old. The only people who believe that are those that take a literal translation of the book of Genesis. One day= one day. Later in the Bible it also speaks of a day being like a thousand years and a thousand years like a day. It talks about the order in which creation was made...those taking the timeline literally are obviously mistaken. Also, we know when certain books of the Bible were written. Certain passages I'm too lazy to look up right now speak about God rolling the universe out like a blanket (big bang) and the world being a sphere held up by nothingness....this was written during a time long before any of this knowledge was known. I could go on and on but I won't bore people.

For those interested in this kind of stuff...pick up the book Signature of God. Also for those that struggle with some of the traditional teachings of the church that make zero sense...which there are many...check out Martin Zender. I have been prompted by some of his writings to study the Greek for myself. That journey has led me to more truth in the last year than I can fully explain. It led me on a journey to question everything I had been taught...to questions traditional teachings...to question translations which I always used to believe are free of error. It was a scarey journey that strengthened my faith...not weakened it.

With all of this said, I'm at a place where you either believe it or you don't. No amount of science, fact, history, accurate translations will change what many people want to do or believe. But, for those that are curious start with the Signature of God for the science and go with Zender for help with difficult questions. Then go study for yourself.

Fair enough. I realize for a lot of people, the spirituality is more important than the actuality. I get that. So in that case, there's not really any point discussing the particulars since you seem satisfied with your world view and I am completely satisfied with mine.

eniparadoxgma
03-06-2010, 07:52 PM
Also relevant may be the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Gnostic Gospels.

I'm also fairly certain that Hades predates Christianity, however it's really not that important a point.

Shawn
03-06-2010, 08:04 PM
[quote="Dee Dub":1owh53ik]

My Bible hasn't been revised. It is the same today as it always has been. Yes it was written by men but God inspired those men to write it.

I thought some of the first ecumenical councils actually altered the bible. Perhaps I'm wrong.

Ok I challenge you or any other person in this entire world to show a verse that has been changed or altered from it's original meaning. I am not talking about books/chapters that were ommited from the beginning before the Bible was put together in its final draft.

If you have God in your heart you know without a doubt that the Bible's final draft is God inspired and God directed regardless of what men or what counsils oversaw the putting together of the Bible.

http://tothewire.wordpress.com/2009/07/ ... ays-bible/ (http://tothewire.wordpress.com/2009/07/06/the-oldest-known-bible-shows-alterations-to-todays-bible/)

Some quotes


The Codex – and other early manuscripts – omit some mentions of ascension of Jesus into heaven, and key references to the Resurrection, which the Archbishop of Canterbury has said is essential for Christian belief.


Also missing is the story of the woman taken in adultery and about to be stoned – until Jesus rebuked the Pharisees (a Jewish sect), inviting anyone without sin to cast the first stone.

Also, if the bible was God inspired or God-guided, why would there need to be multiple drafts or multiple ecumenical councils?[/quote:1owh53ik]

I believe the original texts are God inspired. I believe where we get into trouble is with translation. I believe some were poorly translated...either with or without intent. I don't trust man any longer to translate verses for me. I will read, and use a concordance to aid in translation. I use multiple translations...compare...then compare to the concordant literal translation. It amazing how wrong it has been taught to me.

As to your question...there wouldn't. That's man getting ahold of another thing of God and distorting it.

Very few Christians are willing to work for the truth...they are comfortable and write people like myself off as heretics. But, the truth is right there in black and white. You do not need to be an expert in Greek with the tools we have in the modern age.

I used to be there...used to believe God would protect even the translations. But, I had burning questions which no pastor could answer with anything remotely logical. I had faulty logic concerning God's protection of translation...why? Because obviously I wasn't paying attention to scripture. 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12 states "And therefore God will be sending them an operation of deception, for them to believe falsehood, that all may be judged who do not believe truth, but delight in injustice". What greater injustice is there than burning people in hell for eternity...no matter how bad they were for a temporal portion of time?

So this is what the church wants me to believe...that God...loving agape....knowing many of those in his creation...actually the vast majority would not serve him. Knowing this and building them this way...he decides to build a place to eternally torture those souls. If you are a Christian and are not troubled by this...well I don't know what else to say.

Shawn
03-06-2010, 08:05 PM
Also relevant may be the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Gnostic Gospels.

I'm also fairly certain that Hades predates Christianity, however it's really not that important a point.

Hades literal translation means unseen...not a burning place of eternal torment.

And I believe there was some mythical places of eternal torment taught by Greek pagans...actually many cultures. I need to recheck but I believe that's part of the reasons words like Geheena were translated to hell. Basically the translators taking concepts from pagan belief systems.

Shawn
03-06-2010, 08:15 PM
Snarky...I'm not big on arguing the science of the Bible though I'm well versed in it. I have been in so many of these converations and they get no where. But, the Bible doesn't state that the world is 6010 years old. The only people who believe that are those that take a literal translation of the book of Genesis. One day= one day. Later in the Bible it also speaks of a day being like a thousand years and a thousand years like a day. It talks about the order in which creation was made...those taking the timeline literally are obviously mistaken. Also, we know when certain books of the Bible were written. Certain passages I'm too lazy to look up right now speak about God rolling the universe out like a blanket (big bang) and the world being a sphere held up by nothingness....this was written during a time long before any of this knowledge was known. I could go on and on but I won't bore people.

For those interested in this kind of stuff...pick up the book Signature of God. Also for those that struggle with some of the traditional teachings of the church that make zero sense...which there are many...check out Martin Zender. I have been prompted by some of his writings to study the Greek for myself. That journey has led me to more truth in the last year than I can fully explain. It led me on a journey to question everything I had been taught...to questions traditional teachings...to question translations which I always used to believe are free of error. It was a scarey journey that strengthened my faith...not weakened it.

With all of this said, I'm at a place where you either believe it or you don't. No amount of science, fact, history, accurate translations will change what many people want to do or believe. But, for those that are curious start with the Signature of God for the science and go with Zender for help with difficult questions. Then go study for yourself.

Fair enough. I realize for a lot of people, the spirituality is more important than the actuality. I get that. So in that case, there's not really any point discussing the particulars since you seem satisfied with your world view and I am completely satisfied with mine.

For me the spirituality comes from the actuality. But, I want truth not a distorted version of God's character. Hence, the reason I trust no man to do my work for me.

eniparadoxgma
03-06-2010, 08:17 PM
Also relevant may be the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Gnostic Gospels.

I'm also fairly certain that Hades predates Christianity, however it's really not that important a point.

Hades literal translation means unseen...not a burning place of eternal torment.


Hades (???? or ?????; from Greek ????, Had?s, originally ?????, Haid?s or ?????, Aid?s, meaning "the unseen"[1][2]) refers both to the ancient Greek underworld, the abode of Hades, and to the god of the underworld.

Just correcting your assertion that it was not a place of eternal torment, which it was to the Greeks...predating Christianity.


There were several sections of the realm of Hades, including Elysium, the Asphodel Meadows, and Tartarus.

etc etc

As I said, this is an unimportant point, but one I saw as incorrect, hence my correction.

snarky
03-06-2010, 08:31 PM
For me the spirituality comes from the actuality. But, I want truth not a distorted version of God's character. Hence, the reason I trust no man to do my work for me.

Sorry, yes. That was poorly worded. What I meant to express is that I know that for some their own spirituality is far more important than what they can prove/demonstrate to another (hope I made sense that time).

Anyway, having read your posts you strike me as a very deep thinker and my hat is off to you.

Shawn
03-06-2010, 08:44 PM
[quote=eniparadoxgma]Also relevant may be the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Gnostic Gospels.

I'm also fairly certain that Hades predates Christianity, however it's really not that important a point.

Hades literal translation means unseen...not a burning place of eternal torment.


Hades (???? or ?????; from Greek ????, Had?s, originally ?????, Haid?s or ?????, Aid?s, meaning "the unseen"[1][2]) refers both to the ancient Greek underworld, the abode of Hades, and to the god of the underworld.

Just correcting your assertion that it was not a place of eternal torment, which it was to the Greeks...predating Christianity.


There were several sections of the realm of Hades, including Elysium, the Asphodel Meadows, and Tartarus.

etc etc

As I said, this is an unimportant point, but one I saw as incorrect, hence my correction.[/quote:3d4cm567]

You can look above and see a bit of a correction. The word Hades literally means unseen place. That's it's literal translation. But, Peter’s use of it, as noted at Acts 2:27, shows that it is equivalent to the Hebrew word Sheol...the common grave of mankind. The Greeks certainly had another view of "the unseen"...a place of torture, punishment. But, that is Greek paganism not ancient scriptural Bible. I think you and I see this in a very similar light. The modern day Christian concept of hell was based on Greek paganism...not scripture.

The only place of "eternal" (another mistranslation of aionion) torment spoken about in the Bible is Tartarus (2 Peter 2:4) which was for fallen angelic spirits. Even their torment has an end...hence the reason the real translation is eons...not eternal.

Eni...you probably won't remember this but we had a debate over similar issues a few years ago. I took a completely different stance. It was from those debates and a few others I began to really study this stuff and search. That's part of the reason I always take into account all peoples points of view. We can always be taught...we can always learn.

Shawn
03-06-2010, 08:56 PM
For me the spirituality comes from the actuality. But, I want truth not a distorted version of God's character. Hence, the reason I trust no man to do my work for me.

Sorry, yes. That was poorly worded. What I meant to express is that I know that for some their own spirituality is far more important than what they can prove/demonstrate to another (hope I made sense that time).

Anyway, having read your posts you strike me as a very deep thinker and my hat is off to you.

Yes, that makes sense...and it is how I feel. There was certainly a time where I felt the need to demonstrate and prove...and that came from insecurity about my own beliefs.

I'm not sure that I'm so much a deep thinker as much as just a guy who wants truth...whatever that may be. But, I do appreciate the kind words. :)

eniparadoxgma
03-06-2010, 08:58 PM
Like I said, this really isn't important I don't think. However, I still believe you to be incorrect when you say


Jesus also speaks of hades also mistranslated which means unseen. It never meant a place of eternal torment until biblical translators go ahold of that word. Hades is no more of a place of eternal torment than Geheena. The only greek word that actually means a place of torment is the word Tartarus which was created for supernatural beings of evil...ie satan.

Greek religion predates Christianity and in it Hades is the name of both the god of the underworld and the name of the underworld itself. Therefore, Hades was actually the underworld (where the dead go for eternity) before any biblical translators got a hold of the world. Tartarus was a section of Hades, which was for regular joe schmoes.

Given the Greek (neo-Platonist) influence on the early Christians, I would typically surmise the use of the word to be the same as its original intent. However, I'm not saying Jesus ever specifically stated anything about a hell which is an eternal torment for sinners, etc. That's why I said my point is unimportant. I'm not discussing anything you've actually said, other than the fact that Hades does and did indeed mean the underworld for the Greeks, which predates any Christian text.

eniparadoxgma
03-06-2010, 09:03 PM
You can look above and see a bit of a correction. The word Hades literally means unseen place. That's it's literal translation. But, Peter’s use of it, as noted at Acts 2:27, shows that it is equivalent to the Hebrew word Sheol...the common grave of mankind. The Greeks certainly had another view of "the unseen"...a place of torture, punishment. But, that is Greek paganism not ancient scriptural Bible. I think you and I see this in a very similar light. The modern day Christian concept of hell was based on Greek paganism...not scripture.

The only place of "eternal" (another mistranslation of aionion) torment spoken about in the Bible is Tartarus (2 Peter 2:4) which was for fallen angelic spirits. Even their torment has an end...hence the reason the real translation is eons...not eternal.

Eni...you probably won't remember this but we had a debate over similar issues a few years ago. I took a completely different stance. It was from those debates and a few others I began to really study this stuff and search. That's part of the reason I always take into account all peoples points of view. We can always be taught...we can always learn.

I actually do remember that.

Anyhow, yes Christianity was definitely influenced by the Greeks and neo-Platonists.

My only point was that Hades was seen as a place for the dead way before Christianity came around. That's about it.

Shawn
03-06-2010, 09:32 PM
Like I said, this really isn't important I don't think. However, I still believe you to be incorrect when you say


Jesus also speaks of hades also mistranslated which means unseen. It never meant a place of eternal torment until biblical translators go ahold of that word. Hades is no more of a place of eternal torment than Geheena. The only greek word that actually means a place of torment is the word Tartarus which was created for supernatural beings of evil...ie satan.

Greek religion predates Christianity and in it Hades is the name of both the god of the underworld and the name of the underworld itself. Therefore, Hades was actually the underworld (where the dead go for eternity) before any biblical translators got a hold of the world. Tartarus was a section of Hades, which was for regular joe schmoes.

Given the Greek (neo-Platonist) influence on the early Christians, I would typically surmise the use of the word to be the same as its original intent. However, I'm not saying Jesus ever specifically stated anything about a hell which is an eternal torment for sinners, etc. That's why I said my point is unimportant. I'm not discussing anything you've actually said, other than the fact that Hades does and did indeed mean the underworld for the Greeks, which predates any Christian text.

I do get that we are on the same page when it comes to the modern Christian concept of hell...stemmed from Greek paganism. With that said, I can always learn. I try to always read and listen. I do know that the greek concept of hades as a place of torment predated Christianity. I also know it has a translation to the unseen and has been grouped with the word Sheol (from Hebrew) biblically. The Septuagint as you probably know translated the Hebrew Bible into Greek. Anytime you see hades in the Greek text it was translated from the word Sheol. Sheol is the place of the unseen...the common grave for mankind...good and bad go there...no judgement within Sheol. Now were the Greek translators trying to mistranslate or did they mean the unseen place? I don't know...but what I do know is the english Bible took the word sheol and hades and translated that into hell. The Old Testament clears alot of the confusion up in Genesis when Jacob is mourning his son Joseph and speaks about going into sheol to mourn his son. Sheol was never a place of eternal torment. As stated in a previous post the New Testament makes it clear when speaking about hades they are referring to Sheol...the unseen...the common grave. In Acts 2:27 Peter speaks about not abandoning him to the grave (NIV) (or in the concordant literal, unseen)...which was translated from the Greek word hades. There is your key to translate what the New Testament is speaking about when it uses the word hades.

Anyways, I love this stuff obviously...lol. Great discussion.

Chucktownsteeler
03-06-2010, 11:35 PM
First of all, are we sure the photo on the shirt is not the "joker" from a deck of playing cards? I can't tell.

Secondly, the New Jersey Devils name has nothing to do with the Devil or Satan.
I will keep it brief, but there is an urban legend in Jersey of a "wild man" living in the woods near one of there towns. He would only come out at night and scavenge for food. Hence time and folklore made the legend of the "Jersey Devil".

My opinion of this entire deal, there is probably some truth to both sides, but for the love of good and evil, why is a $108 million dollar Super Bowl winning QB chasing college skanks in the boondocks of Georgia. Maybe the next time the 20-something will have a hyped up hillbilly boyfriend with two-teeth and pull a pistol on our $108 million dollar man.

The kid (if this blows over, no pun intended) needs a good arse chewing from the Steelers FO and anywhere from a 4 to 8 game suspension.

Wake the F-up Billy-Ben and before you get someone or yourself killed.

Chucktown

eniparadoxgma
03-07-2010, 04:48 PM
SMG - I was actually never discussing the translation of Hades in the Bible. I guess I mistakenly thought that when you said "Hades was never a place of eternal torment until the translators got a hold of it" that you were talking about the word in a general sense. This would be incorrect as the term meant the underworld for the Greeks before the Christians saw the light of day. I see now that you were referring to it only in the biblical tradition.

Whether the concept of a place for eternal torment awaits sinners was actually part of the main message of Christianity or what Christianity is supposed to be about is actually a separate subject.

I will say, however, that I take much less issue with those that interpret the Bible/Koran/Torah figuratively than those that interpret them literally.

Chuck - While I understand your point the last two people posting in this thread before you are currently in Kentucky so I'm not sure how far you'll get with the "since he was in a small town in Georgia it automatically means 'boondocks'/hillbillies/etc".

Like I said, I see your point. He should be in more controlled circumstances obviously.

Chucktownsteeler
03-07-2010, 06:04 PM
All in good fun, my friend. I live a bit further south than them, in Charleston, SC.

My terms were used to prove a point. The next time the young "well educated" young lady may have a handsome boyfriend within earshod and do bodily harm to our star $108 million dollar man. There is an invention called the "saturday night special" that has ruined a lot of lives. Better?

Whatever the outcome, I would like to see someone have a serious talk with Ben, get him treatment if he needs it. The team made a committment to Ben, I would like to see it returned by him. Maybe Hines was making bit of a point when he questioned Ben's leadership (although I never agree it should be done in the public realm).

As great as he has been, can you imagine a Ben that is in "shape", studies film, and becomes a lockeroon leader?

Shawn
03-07-2010, 06:58 PM
SMG - I was actually never discussing the translation of Hades in the Bible. I guess I mistakenly thought that when you said "Hades was never a place of eternal torment until the translators got a hold of it" that you were talking about the word in a general sense. This would be incorrect as the term meant the underworld for the Greeks before the Christians saw the light of day. I see now that you were referring to it only in the biblical tradition.

Whether the concept of a place for eternal torment awaits sinners was actually part of the main message of Christianity or what Christianity is supposed to be about is actually a separate subject.

I will say, however, that I take much less issue with those that interpret the Bible/Koran/Torah figuratively than those that interpret them literally.

Chuck - While I understand your point the last two people posting in this thread before you are currently in Kentucky so I'm not sure how far you'll get with the "since he was in a small town in Georgia it automatically means 'boondocks'/hillbillies/etc".

Like I said, I see your point. He should be in more controlled circumstances obviously.

Yes, I was speaking about hades in the biblical sense. As for the main message of Christianity or what it is supposed to be about...well obviously I believe that modern day Christianity is a distortion of Hebrew/Greek biblical teachings. It doesn't shock me at all that man would take something of God and use it to control...gain power and wealth. It doesn't shock me in the slightest that they would think up the scariest thing imaginable...burning forever...to control it's congregation.

You would think that this journey of mine would have weakened my faith. It's funny...it stregthened it. Instead of living my life for God out of fear...I do so out of gratitude. When I finally got it...it was like a million pounds lifted from my chest. I am a follower of Christ...his teachings. These are the principles that guide my life. But, I am not a churchy guy...probably never will be again.

As for the literal and figurative interpretations of the Bible...well I believe it contains passages of both. Some are historical fact, some are stories, parables there to teach a spiritual principle. Obviously, books like Revelations are filled with symbolism. I do not believe the entire Bible is just a bunch of made up stories to teach lessons. I also do not believe all of the Bible is supposed to be interpreted literally.

Dee Dub
03-09-2010, 03:33 PM
This is starting to tread on ground where I might offend some Christians. It could get into a conversation some are not ready to have because what they believe is comfortable. But, the english translation of greek text is not completely accurate in some instances...some of the most important instances. Did you know many times Jesus spoke of hell in our translations the greek word is Gehenna? Gehenna is a a geographical location...small little valley in the southwest corner of Jerusalem. It was used as a dumping ground and a crematorium. He was not referring to the hell built for supernatural beings of evil. Don't trust my word...buy a concordance and check yourself. I truly believe KJV, NIV, and NASB translators turned a geographical location into a place of eternal torment. Jesus also speaks of hades also mistranslated which means unseen. It never meant a place of eternal torment until biblical translators go ahold of that word. Hades is no more of a place of eternal torment than Geheena. The only greek word that actually means a place of torment is the word Tartarus which was created for supernatural beings of evil...ie satan. It's funny Jesus never mentions this word about people or their eternal destiny. What better way to maintain control than through false fear? Do you guys really believe an God who loves agape, who is just, would create and burn his children eternally? Even if you believe they deserve punishment...which we all do...would a just God punish temporal sin with infinite punishment? Come on. That makes no sense. That would be the eptiome of injustice. The Christian concept of hell blasphemes God's character.

Another mistranslation the Greek word aionion in english is eonian which is the adjectival form of eon. What does an eon mean to you? Does it mean forever? Or does it mean a long time? Our translators tranlated aionion into everlasting or eternal. Just grab a concordance and look for yourself. It's amazing more people haven't called the church out on these things. Or maybe they have...and those are the people who have problems believing. Who wants to serve a God who is about love me or burn in fire eternally?

Now you can do three things with the information I just gave you...you can become discouraged because your beliefs about the inerrant translations of the Bible are crushed. You can ignore me and write me off as an idiot. Or you can use this as a catalyst for you to understand the truth about Biblical teachings. You can search for yourself.

I am not attacking or criticizing you Shawn..and I respect what you believe…however when I hear stuff like this I can’t help but think of the term “loophole” . This to me sounds like someone trying to find a way that makes what they want to do and believe comfortable for them to do so.

We all know Jesus spoke often in parables. He did this to get those he spoke too, to relate to something they knew. When he spoke of Gehenna and the way he spoke of it was a way that could be related too. But you can believe that when he used the word Gehenna it was for those he addressed at that time to relate to the fire that those would be cast into upon his return.

All I can say is this. I know in my heart that God is real. I know in my heart that Jesus is the son of God and he is the savior of sin and the means to salvation. I also know that his word (The Bible), is as he meant it to be. What God has given me in my heart leaves no doubt in my mind. And we are talking about a man who once had doubt, and who once didn’t believe.

And in regards to what you said about what Christians believe is “comfortable” for them, I can assure when I first started to trudge this road to happy destiny it was far from comfortable. In fact it was very difficult and very hard to do so. We are talking about a man who by nature was everything that there was wrong. My nature was sin and it still is. The road has gotten easier but for me it is still a tremendous amount of work…to carry out what the Lord wants me to be. But it is work that is well worth it….and its rewards are beyond anything I have ever experienced.

The one thing I just dont ever understand is how some can believe in God (or say they do), yet not believe that he would gives us a manuscript on how to live our lives according to his will. Or that he would allow for man to alter it or right it as they see fit. I guess that’s where faith comes in.

eniparadoxgma
03-09-2010, 03:44 PM
I am not attacking or criticizing you Shawn..and I respect what you believe…however when I hear stuff like this I can’t help but think of the term “loophole” . This to me sounds like someone trying to find a way that makes what they want to do and believe comfortable for them to do so.

We all know Jesus spoke often in parables. He did this to get those he spoke too, to relate to something they knew. When he spoke of Gehenna and the way he spoke of it was a way that could be related too. But you can believe that when he used the word Gehenna it was for those he addressed at that time to relate to the fire that those would be cast into upon his return.

All I can say is this. I know in my heart that God is real. I know in my heart that Jesus is the son of God and he is the savior of sin and the means to salvation. I also know that his word (The Bible), is as he meant it to be. What God has given me in my heart leaves no doubt in my mind. And we are talking about a man who once had doubt, and who once didn’t believe.

And in regards to what you said about what Christians believe is “comfortable” for them, I can assure when I first started to trudge this road to happy destiny it was far from comfortable. In fact it was very difficult and very hard to do so. We are talking about a man who by nature was everything that there was wrong. My nature was sin and it still is. The road has gotten easier but for me it is still a tremendous amount of work…to carry out what the Lord wants me to be. But it is work that is well worth it….and its rewards are beyond anything I have ever experienced.

The one thing I just dont ever understand is how some can believe in God (or say they do), yet not believe that he would gives us a manuscript on how to live our lives according to his will. Or that he would allow for man to alter it or right it as they see fit. I guess that’s where faith comes in.

Believe it or not, but there are many religions that predate Christianity. There are many ways of speaking of the divine or being religious that don't involve monotheism, Jesus, Peter, Paul, Mary, or anyone else of that lineage.

There are more miracles, sacred happenings, and sacred texts in the Vedas then the Bible.

...Every prophet of just about every religion was considered (by their followers) the equivalent to the Son of what they consider God.

You are apparently a Christian. That's your right. However, I find it so...short sighted to say things like "I just don't ever understand how some people can believe in God and then not believe he would give us a manuscript on how to live our lives".

There are more ways to conceive of the divine and what people call "God" than has been touched in Christianity that I find the majority of Christians to be quite limited in their viewpoint, and quite far from the divine they speak of being so close to. If God is the reason for all things, the basis for reality, then why would do we think he would be so human-like? A father figure...telling us how to live? Really?

I just don't ever understand how people can attempt to ascribe to something they consider the equivalent of infinity or the basis for all existence such fallible human traits. In short, I believe people anthropomorphize something they have no business anthropomorphizing.

Bah, I'll stop here. My point is the exact opposite of yours. I find it hard to believe that people really think such trivial things of something that's supposed to be the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and end of all things.

:)

Shawn
03-09-2010, 03:49 PM
This is starting to tread on ground where I might offend some Christians. It could get into a conversation some are not ready to have because what they believe is comfortable. But, the english translation of greek text is not completely accurate in some instances...some of the most important instances. Did you know many times Jesus spoke of hell in our translations the greek word is Gehenna? Gehenna is a a geographical location...small little valley in the southwest corner of Jerusalem. It was used as a dumping ground and a crematorium. He was not referring to the hell built for supernatural beings of evil. Don't trust my word...buy a concordance and check yourself. I truly believe KJV, NIV, and NASB translators turned a geographical location into a place of eternal torment. Jesus also speaks of hades also mistranslated which means unseen. It never meant a place of eternal torment until biblical translators go ahold of that word. Hades is no more of a place of eternal torment than Geheena. The only greek word that actually means a place of torment is the word Tartarus which was created for supernatural beings of evil...ie satan. It's funny Jesus never mentions this word about people or their eternal destiny. What better way to maintain control than through false fear? Do you guys really believe an God who loves agape, who is just, would create and burn his children eternally? Even if you believe they deserve punishment...which we all do...would a just God punish temporal sin with infinite punishment? Come on. That makes no sense. That would be the eptiome of injustice. The Christian concept of hell blasphemes God's character.

Another mistranslation the Greek word aionion in english is eonian which is the adjectival form of eon. What does an eon mean to you? Does it mean forever? Or does it mean a long time? Our translators tranlated aionion into everlasting or eternal. Just grab a concordance and look for yourself. It's amazing more people haven't called the church out on these things. Or maybe they have...and those are the people who have problems believing. Who wants to serve a God who is about love me or burn in fire eternally?

Now you can do three things with the information I just gave you...you can become discouraged because your beliefs about the inerrant translations of the Bible are crushed. You can ignore me and write me off as an idiot. Or you can use this as a catalyst for you to understand the truth about Biblical teachings. You can search for yourself.

I am not attacking or criticizing you Shawn..and I respect what you believe…however when I hear stuff like this I can’t help but think of the term “loophole” . This to me sounds like someone trying to find a way that makes what they want to do and believe comfortable for them to do so.

We all know Jesus spoke often in parables. He did this to get those he spoke too, to relate to something they knew. When he spoke of Gehenna and the way he spoke of it was a way that could be related too. But you can believe that when he used the word Gehenna it was for those he addressed at that time to relate to the fire that those would be cast into upon his return.

All I can say is this. I know in my heart that God is real. I know in my heart that Jesus is the son of God and he is the savior of sin and the means to salvation. I also know that his word (The Bible), is as he meant it to be. What God has given me in my heart leaves no doubt in my mind. And we are talking about a man who once had doubt, and who once didn’t believe.

And in regards to what you said about what Christians believe is “comfortable” for them, I can assure when I first started to trudge this road to happy destiny it was far from comfortable. In fact it was very difficult and very hard to do so. We are talking about a man who by nature was everything that there was wrong. My nature was sin and it still is. The road has gotten easier but for me it is still a tremendous amount of work…to carry out what the Lord wants me to be. But it is work that is well worth it….and its rewards are beyond anything I have ever experienced.

The one thing I just dont ever understand is how some can believe in God (or say they do), yet not believe that he would gives us a manuscript on how to live our lives according to his will. Or that he would allow for man to alter it or right it as they see fit. I guess that’s where faith comes in.

I am a man of faith but I do use the brain God gave me. Obviously, I believe in God...I have been saved by grace, the blood of Jesus and I follow his teachings. With that all said, saying Gehenna was a parable about an eternal destiny of burning in a lake of fire forever is stretch without support. No where in the greek or the hebrew does the Bible support such a notion. In order for you to believe what you believe you need additional support. All additional support come from mistranslations which I spelled out in depth.

Does the concept of hell bother me? Make me uncomfortable? Well yes. To think about a God who predestines those he creates to a function...and then burning them in fire for eternity for temporal sin epitomizes injustice. It eptomizes cruelty rather than love...especially agape love. It is a Christian concept that is force fed to us as children and we are scared to not believe it. It has zero support in the ancient texts.

I believe in the end days all of creation will be reconciled unto Christ...just like the Bible states...just like the ancient transcripts state.

I have a more concerning question...why are Christians so willing to believe in this concept of injustice and just mark it down as one of the mysteries of God?

I will agree with you on something...God has given us a manuscript to which we can live our lives according to his will. It's the ancient Bible...not the one translated into english. It's why Christians need not be lazy and pick up a concordance. I would also suggest putting away all the Nazarene vs Baptist vs Catholic stuff and study for yourself.

Dee Dub
03-09-2010, 03:59 PM
Does the concept of hell bother me? Make me uncomfortable? Well yes. To think about a God who predestines those he creates to a function...and then burning them in fire for eternity for temporal sin epitomizes injustice. It eptomizes cruelty rather than love...especially agape love. It is a Christian concept that is force fed to us as children and we are scared to not believe it. It has zero support in the ancient texts.

So it is unjust of God to cast out into hell the man who brutally rapes and kills a little child?

snarky
03-09-2010, 04:01 PM
The one thing I just dont ever understand is how some can believe in God (or say they do), yet not believe that he would gives us a manuscript on how to live our lives according to his will.

Are you expecting this to not come off as condescending or judgmental? You are basically implying that anybody who doesn't believe in the way you do doesn't really believe at all.

PS: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism

eniparadoxgma
03-09-2010, 04:06 PM
I'd think this relevant: http://history.hanover.edu/texts/voltaire/volrelig.html.

:)

snarky
03-09-2010, 04:23 PM
Does the concept of hell bother me? Make me uncomfortable? Well yes. To think about a God who predestines those he creates to a function...and then burning them in fire for eternity for temporal sin epitomizes injustice. It eptomizes cruelty rather than love...especially agape love. It is a Christian concept that is force fed to us as children and we are scared to not believe it. It has zero support in the ancient texts.

So it is unjust of God to cast out into hell the man who brutally rapes and kills a little child?

Question: In your view, was Hell created specifically as a place to torture people as punishment of their sins? If not, why do people end up there?

AngryAsian
03-09-2010, 05:00 PM
Thank you my brothers....


viewtopic.php?f=14&t=10858 (http://www.planetsteelers.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=10858)

feltdizz
03-09-2010, 05:01 PM
I don't think Hell is fire and brimstones and a red guy with a fork.

Anyone seen the movie What Dreams May Come? I think Hell could be like they show it. A woman who really wants her family but is trapped all alone in her house.

Hell to me is coming back to this place called Earth. A girl asked me why God let's peoe die of cancer? I don't know the answer but the first thing I said was "because it's earth not heaven"

I have no idea but I know I was on my deathbed at 4 years old and my Mom said she gave me to God and after months of painful test and internal bleeding with no way to stop it a nurse pulled a splinter out of my foot and I was cured.

They called it WET ITP but every doctor in childrens hospital in Oakland had no clue. I was on a floor where the kids left and didn't come back, and they weren't going home.

I feel as though life is too short, I have no idea where I was before this and have no idea what is next. I believe because I do. If you do not that is fine, it's your life and I won't be at the gates deciding... I just find it hilarious how near death experiences usually have atheist calling for God or some higher power. No one hangs off a cliff or is trapped in a cave screaming please me help me.

SteelAbility
03-09-2010, 05:03 PM
Does the concept of hell bother me? Make me uncomfortable? Well yes. To think about a God who predestines those he creates to a function...and then burning them in fire for eternity for temporal sin epitomizes injustice. It eptomizes cruelty rather than love...especially agape love. It is a Christian concept that is force fed to us as children and we are scared to not believe it. It has zero support in the ancient texts.

So it is unjust of God to cast out into hell the man who brutally rapes and kills a little child?

Question: In your view, was Hell created specifically as a place to torture people as punishment of their sins? If not, why do people end up there?

According to the Bible, Hell was created originally for "the devil and his angels." Then the devil managed to sway man his way in his rebellion against God. For reasons that I don't totally understand, redemption (escape from Hell) is offered to man but not to the devil (or his angel followers - or demon spirits). I personally believe it has to do with the spirits rebelling with full knowledge/understanding/view of God and His glory.

After man "fell" he lost his view of God and it was passed on down generations. We aren't born (in and of ourselves) with the capability of perceiving God on a personal level or of knowing what He is really like. This is part of the whole Jesus thing. The Bible teaches that He is the intermediary between God and man, making it possible for man to know God once again. The Bible teaches that knowing God begins with forgiveness of sins.

Jeremiah 31:34
No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

1 John 4:7
Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

Luke 7:40-47
And Jesus answered and said to him, “Simon, I have something to say to you.”
So he said, “Teacher, say it.”
41 “There was a certain creditor who had two debtors. One owed five hundred denarii, and the other fifty. And when they had nothing with which to repay, he freely forgave them both. Tell Me, therefore, which of them will love him more?”
Simon answered and said, “I suppose the one whom he forgave more.”
And He said to him, “You have rightly judged.” Then He turned to the woman and said to Simon, “Do you see this woman? I entered your house; you gave Me no water for My feet, but she has washed My feet with her tears and wiped them with the hair of her head. You gave Me no kiss, but this woman has not ceased to kiss My feet since the time I came in. You did not anoint My head with oil, but this woman has anointed My feet with fragrant oil. Therefore I say to you, her sins, which are many, are forgiven, for she loved much. But to whom little is forgiven, the same loves little.”

snarky
03-09-2010, 05:33 PM
I just find it hilarious how near death experiences usually have atheist calling for God or some higher power. No one hangs off a cliff or is trapped in a cave screaming please me help me.

So you find it hilarious when people who don't agree with your religion are in danger of dying? huh?

Should I laugh because Jesus asked God why he had been forsaken while he was dying on the cross?

Anyway, if I was hanging off a cliff or trapped in a cave I would be trying to figure out how to survive.

When I was at Pitt I was attacked one night while walking across campus by three kids who were apparently out 'wiliding' They ran up behind me and one of them punched me in the back of my head knocking me to the ground. When I was down they kicked me in the face and the ribs. It was dark where they first attacked me and I immediately recognized that what I needed to do was get near the street so that I would be in a place where they wouldn't feel 'safe' beating on me. I got up and took a few steps and one of them knocked me down from behind again and they resumed kicking me. Got up again, took a few more steps and the same thing happened again. Rinse repeat one more time. Finally I got up one more time and at this point was close enough to make it to the hedge along the sidewalk. I dove over it and they scattered.

I can tell you that I was truly fearing for my life during this incident and at no time during this experience did I think about praying to any God for help. I was simply trying to get myself out it.

Shawn
03-09-2010, 05:39 PM
Does the concept of hell bother me? Make me uncomfortable? Well yes. To think about a God who predestines those he creates to a function...and then burning them in fire for eternity for temporal sin epitomizes injustice. It eptomizes cruelty rather than love...especially agape love. It is a Christian concept that is force fed to us as children and we are scared to not believe it. It has zero support in the ancient texts.

So it is unjust of God to cast out into hell the man who brutally rapes and kills a little child?

I don't believe any temporal sin (something done within the confines of time) is deserving of burning in a lake of fire for eternity. I am of the belief that all of creation will be reconciled unto Christ. I didn't make that verse up but don't have my Bible to quote verse. I do not claim I know how God sorts things out after death. I do know there is a second judgement the Bible speaks about for believers...where our works are judged. I also know those who have been given much...much is expected. I know we are held to a different standard in the eyes of God.

I believe God wants us to search out his mysteries. I don't believe he wants us to be spoon fed babes in Christ. People just so easily accept the translations and men's interpretations of them.

And I agree with Ability. It's good to be careful with how we word things...because that statement did seem judgemental. As if I must believe in hell to be a follower of Christ...to love Christ and God. I trust God...not man. I do my own reading...my own research, look at all the interpretations and make my own. I draw my own conclusions. I believe that God wants us to do those things. If I'm wrong I suppose I will have to answer for that come judgement day. Some that are threatened by this will call me a heretic. I'm ok with that.

Shawn
03-09-2010, 05:45 PM
I don't think Hell is fire and brimstones and a red guy with a fork.

Anyone seen the movie What Dreams May Come? I think Hell could be like they show it. A woman who really wants her family but is trapped all alone in her house.

Hell to me is coming back to this place called Earth. A girl asked me why God let's peoe die of cancer? I don't know the answer but the first thing I said was "because it's earth not heaven"

I have no idea but I know I was on my deathbed at 4 years old and my Mom said she gave me to God and after months of painful test and internal bleeding with no way to stop it a nurse pulled a splinter out of my foot and I was cured.

They called it WET ITP but every doctor in childrens hospital in Oakland had no clue. I was on a floor where the kids left and didn't come back, and they weren't going home.

I feel as though life is too short, I have no idea where I was before this and have no idea what is next. I believe because I do. If you do not that is fine, it's your life and I won't be at the gates deciding... I just find it hilarious how near death experiences usually have atheist calling for God or some higher power. No one hangs off a cliff or is trapped in a cave screaming please me help me.

What Dreams May Come might be the most underrated movie I have ever seen. It's in my top 5 favorite movies.

Shawn
03-09-2010, 06:00 PM
I'd think this relevant: http://history.hanover.edu/texts/voltaire/volrelig.html.

:)

I absolutely loved that. It really sheds light on the difference between loving religion and loving God and fellow man.

Maybe someday you will tell me about your views. I'm interested. :)

Dee Dub
03-09-2010, 06:01 PM
Does the concept of hell bother me? Make me uncomfortable? Well yes. To think about a God who predestines those he creates to a function...and then burning them in fire for eternity for temporal sin epitomizes injustice. It eptomizes cruelty rather than love...especially agape love. It is a Christian concept that is force fed to us as children and we are scared to not believe it. It has zero support in the ancient texts.

So it is unjust of God to cast out into hell the man who brutally rapes and kills a little child?

I don't believe any temporal sin (something done within the confines of time) is deserving of burning in a lake of fire for eternity. I am of the belief that all of creation will be reconciled unto Christ. I didn't make that verse up but don't have my Bible to quote verse. I do not claim I know how God sorts things out after death. I do know there is a second judgement the Bible speaks about for believers...where our works are judged. I also know those who have been given much...much is expected. I know we are held to a different standard in the eyes of God.

I believe God wants us to search out his mysteries. I don't believe he wants us to be spoon fed babes in Christ. People just so easily accept the translations and men's interpretations of them.

And I agree with Ability. It's good to be careful with how we word things...because that statement did seem judgemental. As if I must believe in hell to be a follower of Christ...to love Christ and God. I trust God...not man. I do my own reading...my own research, look at all the interpretations and make my own. I draw my own conclusions. I believe that God wants us to do those things. If I'm wrong I suppose I will have to answer for that come judgement day. Some that are threatened by this will call me a heretic. I'm ok with that.

Let me get this straight….you read a book by a man (Martin Zender), which now shapes a lot of what you believe, yet question anything written in the Bible because it was written by man? And you also believe that there are no consequences with God for how we live or lives? That we will stand and exist in a place in the hereafter with those that have harmed and killed children? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm?? Interesting.

snarky
03-09-2010, 06:04 PM
[quote=Shawn]

Does the concept of hell bother me? Make me uncomfortable? Well yes. To think about a God who predestines those he creates to a function...and then burning them in fire for eternity for temporal sin epitomizes injustice. It eptomizes cruelty rather than love...especially agape love. It is a Christian concept that is force fed to us as children and we are scared to not believe it. It has zero support in the ancient texts.

So it is unjust of God to cast out into hell the man who brutally rapes and kills a little child?

I don't believe any temporal sin (something done within the confines of time) is deserving of burning in a lake of fire for eternity. I am of the belief that all of creation will be reconciled unto Christ. I didn't make that verse up but don't have my Bible to quote verse. I do not claim I know how God sorts things out after death. I do know there is a second judgement the Bible speaks about for believers...where our works are judged. I also know those who have been given much...much is expected. I know we are held to a different standard in the eyes of God.

I believe God wants us to search out his mysteries. I don't believe he wants us to be spoon fed babes in Christ. People just so easily accept the translations and men's interpretations of them.

And I agree with Ability. It's good to be careful with how we word things...because that statement did seem judgemental. As if I must believe in hell to be a follower of Christ...to love Christ and God. I trust God...not man. I do my own reading...my own research, look at all the interpretations and make my own. I draw my own conclusions. I believe that God wants us to do those things. If I'm wrong I suppose I will have to answer for that come judgement day. Some that are threatened by this will call me a heretic. I'm ok with that.

Let me get this straight….you read a book by a man (Martin Zender), which now shapes a lot of what you believe, yet question anything written in the Bible because it was written by man? And you also believe that there are no consequences with God for how we live or lives? That we will stand and exist in a place in the hereafter with those that have harmed and killed children? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm?? Interesting.[/quote:34f84t7p]

You forgot to say you weren't judging him.

Shawn
03-09-2010, 06:17 PM
[quote=Shawn]

Does the concept of hell bother me? Make me uncomfortable? Well yes. To think about a God who predestines those he creates to a function...and then burning them in fire for eternity for temporal sin epitomizes injustice. It eptomizes cruelty rather than love...especially agape love. It is a Christian concept that is force fed to us as children and we are scared to not believe it. It has zero support in the ancient texts.

So it is unjust of God to cast out into hell the man who brutally rapes and kills a little child?

I don't believe any temporal sin (something done within the confines of time) is deserving of burning in a lake of fire for eternity. I am of the belief that all of creation will be reconciled unto Christ. I didn't make that verse up but don't have my Bible to quote verse. I do not claim I know how God sorts things out after death. I do know there is a second judgement the Bible speaks about for believers...where our works are judged. I also know those who have been given much...much is expected. I know we are held to a different standard in the eyes of God.

I believe God wants us to search out his mysteries. I don't believe he wants us to be spoon fed babes in Christ. People just so easily accept the translations and men's interpretations of them.

And I agree with Ability. It's good to be careful with how we word things...because that statement did seem judgemental. As if I must believe in hell to be a follower of Christ...to love Christ and God. I trust God...not man. I do my own reading...my own research, look at all the interpretations and make my own. I draw my own conclusions. I believe that God wants us to do those things. If I'm wrong I suppose I will have to answer for that come judgement day. Some that are threatened by this will call me a heretic. I'm ok with that.

Let me get this straight….you read a book by a man (Martin Zender), which now shapes a lot of what you believe, yet question anything written in the Bible because it was written by man? And you also believe that there are no consequences with God for how we live or lives? That we will stand and exist in a place in the hereafter with those that have harmed and killed children? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm?? Interesting.[/quote:2aj86ci8]

So you believe I base my belief system off of what Zender wrote? :lol: Come on...give me more credit than that. I read alot...and I read from both extremes. I also do my own research...I do not accept what is fed to me by any man. Zender is way out there on alot of issues. I do not agree with him on many. But, I did research everything he stated about hell. I couldn't find in error and by doing my own homework I seen how off some of the translations are. If some are off then you must question the whole...correct? Can you debate that I'm incorrect about the mistranslations?

And by asking me about child molestors you are trying to put me in a spot. Either I go against what I said or I look like someone who condones child molestation. Not cool. With that said...I do believe the Bible says ALL of creation will be reconciled under Christ. I believe the worst of sinners will be reconciled...I believe every knee and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord. Do you really believe you are any better than the worst of these? What sins have you committed in your heart? Have you ever murdered someone in your mind? What was Christ's statements about doing so? I will reserve judgement for God. And like I said before I do not know how God sorts it out after death but I do not believe it will be with fire and brimestone for eternity.

eniparadoxgma
03-09-2010, 06:18 PM
Thank you my brothers....


viewtopic.php?f=14&t=10858 (http://www.planetsteelers.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=10858)

I don't mind continuing the convo, but I think AA was trying to tell us something. :tt2

Shawn
03-09-2010, 06:33 PM
Thank you my brothers....


viewtopic.php?f=14&t=10858 (http://www.planetsteelers.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=10858)

I don't mind continuing the convo, but I think AA was trying to tell us something. :tt2

Yeah good convo...I'm enjoying this.

Head to another room boys...the angry man has spoken. :)